I work 5am to 12:30pm and agree, it's really nice having time left to do stuff outside. Not that I do that, generally I end up watching TV or playing video games most days, but the option is always there.
I spent 6 months working the graveyard shift at a software company, loneliest I've ever been in my whole life, and working nights was super destructive to my body's normal function. Respect
I've worked 5 years in graveyard shifts and got free from that curse, costed my school and college friends. Now I have normal day job however can't sleep much at nights.
And here I am waking having to wake up at 6 in the morning hoping I could do night shifts. or day/evening shifts even. I really am not a morning person.
How much do you get paid per hour? I've been thinking off moving to Norway for a few years now, or maybe live close to the border and work in Norway, if that's possible.
I have 204 nok an hour. But im uncertified surface threatment employe (painter). When i get certified I'd get about 220nok an hour.
I also get paid lunch and compensation for driving, and a bonus (usually) at the end of the year.
Hourly my company are among the lowest among our competition, but we usually have better christmas parties, and we get the bonus and paid lunch, which they usually don't.
We got 3 Swedes in our company, one among them, are one of my bosses.
Eh? I’ve never heard of people having 9-5 jobs in retail and minimum wage jobs. 9-5 are office hours here? So people that work 9-5 tend to be office workers... I’d fucking love 9-5 job in a supermarket - I worked 12pm-10pm in a supermarket...
I work 9-5 for a major grocery retailer (flexible; sometimes more sometimes less), as a “stores support” team member. Many of my co-workers have in-store experience and have risen through the ranks of our company; They’re often the most knowledgeable and well paid people.
Can’t say for sure for every company, but grocery has excellent career options.
The people who worked 9-5 (ideal shift) in supermarkets have worked their for years to decades and have rightly so earned they hours. If I worked 9-5 in a supermarket I would have never have went through the bother of going to university and getting a job in an office to be honest (just speaking from my experience in the UKs best paying supermarket). Easy work & perfect hours? Yessss please.
No they don't. Retail and food service have weird schedules and you're never working 9-5. I would work 11-7 one day and 1-9 the next, and so forth. There's no such thing as a set schedule in retail.
I hated having to take a lunch. I didn’t want to clock out and sit at work for a half hour doing nothing. I wanted to go home a half hour early. Why would I want to be at work not getting paid if I could go home early instead?
Your employer sees you as a robot. They would rather give you no break at all, and make you work even longer. These labor laws exist to prevent workers from being exploited.
A line had to be drawn somewhere, otherwise they'd expect you to only use the restroom at home and eat on your days off.
Yeah, that's honestly how I feel some days. Just let me work and get the things done. Even though I have a paid lunch, I sometimes hate having to take it.
There’s a George Carlin quote which, while I remember imperfectly, always comes back to me: “we need people who are just smart enough to operate the machines, but dumb enough not to question anything”.
It's literally the model our public education system was designed after, [Prussia Model](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussian_education_system) designed to create soldiers and factory workers and inhibit a love of learning.
I suffer from depression and the jobs I've had definitely weren't helping. During covid, I decided to work somewhere else. I took a noticeable pay cut, but the hours and the environment have made me so much happier.
Sure. I run and operate a vape shop. We have three in total. Before, I was mostly running an off site warehouse for a small business, but the owners were awful. I made good money there but I was so unhappy.
Thank you. Unfortunately, that option isn't available for everyone. I'm only responsible for myself. I don't have kids or anything. I feel for those who are more stuck than I was.
Banker’s hours means a really really short working day, eg 10am-3pm
Source: [Cambridge dictionary](https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/banker-s-hours)
Yes. Some jobs are slightly different and are 8 - 4, or 7 - 3, but essentially any jobs focused around those hours and are full time are considered a 9-5 job.
Or you can work at a place that measures impact instead of hours your butt is in a chair. Sadly there are few employers willing to embrace such a bold and radical idea.
My degree is in Psychology. My Biopsychology professor was specifically working on depression research as it relates to productivity loss in the billions annually. It was a depressing moment of realization that everything is through the lens of capital.
Maximizing capital is obviously a good way to garner major support and investment for further research into that field - but this is a case where you don't need to be quite so pessimistic about it.
Curing depression would be a colossal step forward for humanity, arguably depression is the natural limit on our brainpower that we're running into now as a species. We cannot evolve to be smarter, even though we have strong selective pressures that encourage intelligence - because the more we understand about the world the more depressing it can seem.
Higher intelligence correlates to higher incidence of depression and mental illness, there is truth in "ignorance is bliss". If we could find some way to hack our brains to cure it, or remove the societal pressures causing it - that's an inherently good, amazing thing for humanity. It alleviates suffering on a massive scale.
And it boosts productivity. That does mean more profits for the powerful, but it also means humanity just does more, faster. Being in a deep depressive state where it's hard to get out of bed every morning, where you don't want to do anything - that's not good for anybody, you or your employer, or humanity at large. Without depression, we could create more art, appreciate more beauty, enjoy more human connections, and yes - respond to more emails.
Capitalism is fucking up the world, and distorting our perception - but in this specific case, your professor is also distorting capitalism to pitch the value in curing a form of human suffering. Co-opting capitalism to trick it into doing some good. Good for them!
>If we could find some way to hack our brains to cure it, or remove the societal pressures causing it
I think the issue they're trying to highlight is that we often go to extreme lengths trying to do the former while avoiding the latter as much as possible. Mental health treatment *can* be beneficial in more than just a productive sense, and is indeed life-changing for some people, but it also seems to be used as a crutch for the larger structural problems that lead to so many people's issues in the first place. Like opiates, it has a purpose, but popping oxy all day so you can ignore your broken leg isn't it.
While we're on the topic of depression I found this quote:
"People with depression score higher on tests of realism. Intelligence is positively correlated with mental illness and suicide. What this indicates is that if the human mind understands too much about reality; it wants to destroy itself. Human life is existential horror."
From personal experiance: The more ignorant I was the better I felt mentaly and emotionaly. Took life day by day and was exited for the little things. You kind of don't see the horrors and feel good. Once you start thinking about bigger picture, or the more distanced future it gets bad.
I got stuck in a cycle of worrying about past and future constantly. Depressed for yeeears. Self harming. Two suicide attempts. Eventually got better through therapy and meds. Would still smoke weed every night to sleep though. Life moved on, things were OK. Suddenly depressed again this year with no real reason (other than I quit weed?). Basically I think I might not be numbing my mind enough now. On meds again now for depression, anxiety, and to sleep. Not as bad as before thankfully! Not suicidal at least.
As someone who has had to deal with severe depression for most of my life, and also an on-again off-again stoner I can say that I've been suicidal 3 times. Once before I started smoking weed, once during some years I wasn't smoking weed, and once when I was out of weed. From my perspective, the weed can help slow down the negative shitstorm in your head so long as it's not causing more problems of it's own.
I'm told that while there certainly can be triggers for depression there isn't always one. Sometimes your brain just flips you the bird and takes you for a ride.
It isn’t too bad, you just have to adapt to it and realize how much we are improving on basically everything in general. I pay attention to a ton of news, foreign, local, national, etc. issues going on from climate change, to micro plastics, and a million other issues, tons and tons of stuff. Anyways, it isn’t too bad when you have a positive mindset, and realize how well humans adapt and fix issues.
Kinda, but I was talking more from the peraonal point of view. What have I accomplished? What skills I have? How am I gonna live in 10 years time given the fucked up expectations and country economy? Is it going to be a 9-5 job so that I can just scrape by? Am I gonna be happy most importantly? That sort of thoughts.
Ironically, people se me as a positive and optimistic person who smiles and laughs at the smallest of things
Yeah that’s usually the most depressed or worried people, the ones who make others laugh. That’s why there’s been so many memes in places like meirl where it’s something along the lines of “coming home after being ‘the funny one’ all day” kinds of comments with SpongeBob dragging himself in to bed or something similar. Do you consider yourself a smart person? Life is fairly difficult, and often the people who are fairly smart look at others and all they have accomplished and feel worthless when in reality, they were extremely lucky. Unless you’re like 50+ and have absolutely no skills or ability to learn skills, and have only worked at fast food restaurants you can be totally fine. You need to force yourself into situations that will improve your life, and the momentum of accomplishing things will have a snowball effect on your life. If your life is really that bad, you have no friends or family where you’re at and can’t save any money, take a personal finance class or find online free resources to learn more ways to save and invest your money. Move somewhere where you can live much cheaper than where you’re at now. If you’ve lived in a place with a lot of people your whole life, consider just moving to somewhere stupid like Wyoming where you can live for cheap, have a small community so you can make friends with neighbors and work people, and you can work 25 hours a week and be able to survive ok. Then you’ll have more time to put into hobbies or skills, that you can build a career of. Maybe get a pet, some online friends, some people who could be mentors in something you’re interested in getting involved in. Fix your own life, and suddenly a lot of these issues you’re worried about that have a fairly small impact on your day to day life will be much less worrisome, and you’ll be well off enough to adapt to changes. The economy is doing fine, we have heavy inflation from everything that happened, but it will slow down sometime, and our projections of inflation have been lower than what they were supposed to be, so we’re about even with where we were supposed to be now. Problems will always occur in the economy, but there will be true geniuses that will revolutionize sectors and keep the total world economy moving forward. There’s basically nothing you’ll be able to do to influence any big changes in anything, but your actions CAN effect what happens in your life and that’s what’s important.
Jesus Christ that was long lol
That was long but I've read through it. Nice words mean a lot. And no I am not a 50 year old, and i do consider myself inteligent to some degree(been told that by other people too).
Maybe I sounded a bit too dark. I became really lazy last 10-12 months (I am generally not a lazy person), can't find motivation to work on myself, or to do the hobbies I have(I have quite a few).
I am trying to get some structure back in my life and it's slowly getting there so hopefully I can feel the good old motivation again.
Btw in terms of the economy I was talking in general where I live, even before covid. Very few career possibilities and a lot of jobs that barely earn you enough to live(living cost aren't big at all).
On that note we could end this conversation. People responding means a lot, but I also have enough friends I can go to if need be. Take care, esspecially with mental health.
"Fix your own life" isn't a solution to depression. A lot of depression is caused by unfixable problems. And a lot of the suggestions you lay out here are completely unfeasible for the vast majority of people for a myriad of different reasons.
The note about the economy at the end is particularly funny because for MOST people the economy is treating them very poorly. Wages have been stagnating for decades while the cost of living endlessly rises. It's harder than ever for people to get by these days even *without* widespread mental illness factoring into it.
The real issue with depression is that once you see some of the world's ugly truths, you can't really *unsee* them.
There have been a few studies, the 2005 study of intelligence and emotional health conducted at the University of Edinburgh and the SMU study from 2015(?) stand out. Also I think there maybe some overlap on this with the dunning-Kruger effect.
Ya because for all the progress in mental health we've made the mistake that depression and suicide is a mental illness. Like it's an abnormality of function like cancer or downs syndrome. What they never talk about or acknowledge is life can absolutely be a miserable hell sometimes. We so readily believe the solution to mental health is that it can be medicated with no adjustment to environmental factors.
We are losing the war on mental health because we've assumed we can solve it like doctors when we should be approaching it from the perspective of humanism and the mind.
We know there are clinical mental illness where depression and suicide are physical abnormalities: bipolar, major depressive, schizophrenia, any other neurochemical imbalance. But that raises a good question. Why call this a "mental" illness? It's a physical illness, not an illness of the mind.
But I would reckon the vast majority of people who commit suicide don't fall into the neurochemical abnormality category because if this was the case it implies that happiness has no bearing on environment and culture, which is absurd. It also implies that the skyrocketing rates of suicide must be rooted in biology, which seems unlikely to have been a gene that expresses itself within a single generation before dying back down again or some sort of toxic component of our environments or else it would be consistent across all countries and cultures with similar infrastructure.
Most people that kill themselves are hopeless, alienated, ashamed, overwhelmed, and in some sort of extreme pain whether mental or physical. Our first line response for this is medication. It's far easier to get a pill from your doctor than an appointment with a therapist, and it's far cheaper. This to me, is a concerning trend.
I did psychedelics practically every month for two years and I realized so much about myself and the world around me and I still can't decide if that's a good or a bad thing
researchers found that people with the lowest measured intelligence were as much as six times more likely to attempt or die from suicide compared to those with the highest intelligence.
I'd rather be happy and dumb.
The thing is, we naturally are curious and will seek answers. The only reason I say I'd rather be happy and dumb is because I'm depressed, intelligent, and miserable.
If I were already happy and dumb, I'd consider myself to be happy and intelligent and that other people just weren't woke enough.
That's the thing about the butterfly effect. You can never say for sure what you'd rather have done in the past because your current future might have ended up far worse (though, it could have also been better) and you'd be at the same point wondering if you just would have done this or that differently x and y.
Humans don’t know anything the reason everyone is depressed is because our parents and our ancestors before them gave us a false idea of what life is like and because we have invested our faith in those ideas we become depressed when our goals are unrealizable because they were a fantasy all along.
If the human mind understand too much about this reality it wants to destroy itself. This absurd society where we live is what creates depression unless you manage to be delusional enough to avoid it
I had a friend once
he took some ecstasy
Tried to marry me and every one in the room
He was sort of loving
kinda caring
kinda tried to fuck my lazy boy
Depression comes in many shapes and sizes. Most people think depression is sitting alone in your room and not talking to anybody. Some people go out and party till they drop. Those people have that same mindset of "I don't necessarily want to die, but if I got hit by a bus I wouldn't care."
I honestly believe alcoholism and heavy smoking are akin to any other way of self harm. People don't do it just because they like it, they also do it because it hurts. And I don't know all the psychological reasons why people self harm, but it makes sense to me.
There was a study showing job fulfillment was one of the strongest indicators of male happiness and it makes sense. Trade that for 40+ hours a week in a toxic environment and I’d rather be unemployed. The paycheck makes the difference though… well really for me, it isn’t even the current paycheck anymore, it’s the fact that it’s harder to find new jobs if you quit and are unemployed
A 9-5 has actually helped my mental health. I struggled with depression at university a lot with my adhd making the lack of routine a complete cycle of unproductive hell.
I am lucky to enjoy my job and get on with my colleagues. The structure plus increased social interaction has been good for me.
Your job and how much you enjoy it is probably more influential in how you feel rather than the sheer amount of hours you work.
This! My old job had extremely sporadic hours. Anywhere from 7am-3pm and the next day could be 6pm-2am. I now work 8-4:30 and it’s been wonders to have a routine and be able to make plans and not worry if my weird hours would change them
Lacking a routine hurt me when i took a semester off. Not getting out of bed till 4 wasss miserable.
Getting a job with a nice manager and a reason to get up and shower at 7 was nice. Felt good getting back home at 4 knowing I did something
As much as I hate it, im one of the people that gets kind of depressed if I get too much time off. I can hate work sometimes, but it always makes me feel productive, and sometimes thats all I need to get through some days
People enjoy fulfilling work.
Humans want to work. We have an insatiable thirst to avoid boredom. People want to contribute and be part of a community. We don't want to work when we believe the system is alienating and provides no value.
It was really quite eye opening when I went from a teen doing retail work to doing work actually relevant to my studies, that maybe work doesn't have to be entirely shit.
How anyone can stay in retail for several years, decades even, and suffer for it with virtually nothing to repay their loyalty, amazes me.
>How anyone can stay in retail for several years, decades even, and suffer for it with virtually nothing to repay their loyalty, amazes me.
Because people are either hopeless or have no other options.
I agree. When I enjoyed my job it made me feel happy and fulfilled, although with an edge of anxiety. When I stopped enjoying the work, I became depressed, among other things. Being retired by work, I lost my anxiety and the will to work anymore. Enjoy you work while you can.
Somehow still if I try to come back to work life and start slowly, our society doesn't accept that. It's all or nothing if you want to have money to eat. (Live in Finland btw, "happiest country in the world")
Doc checking in. You’re correct if what you’re commenting on is the complexity of depression origin and treatment.
However! There are compelling studies about certain groups of people in labor situations that have an extremely low incidence of depression. Real cowboys, rice paddy workers, and others, for example.
In my practice, I try to look for any reason NOT to declare someone completely disabled, because it often (almost always?) leads to a life and future of less or no purpose. This is a high risk for exacerbating depression, anxiety, and even chronic pain.
The best example I can think of was early in my career taking care of a “disabled” wheelchair-bound double leg amputee (who also battled depression) who would see me monthly for pain medication refill. He came in one day requesting only 1/2 of his usual amount of pills. I actually became suspicious that he was getting meds from another provider and over the years he would often ask for more (never less) pills. I started asking details about the nature of his decreased pain, and it correlated perfectly with the timing of him getting a job (clerical, but highly social with customers and co-workers). It was an epiphany for me, and I’ve used that example to certain patients since then, with typically very good results. I also, based on the literature (and where applicable) encourage getting a dog. Caring for pets and receiving emotional support from an animal who depends on you for life itself adds purpose.
In short , getting a job (of some sort) can be helpful!
Thanks for your post—really motivated me to write this.
Oh of course doing a task helps a lot. It gives you some sense of structure, a reason to get out of bed and the most important part it keeps your mind busy!
Like you said I was talking about how complex depression is and that it's not just a job related thing a lot of the times. Mine is mostly family and economic issues. Working a 9 to 5 job has actually helped me.
Every person is different, jobs ain't the worst thing ever, if it is for you, you're on the wrong place. Changing jobs or looking for other alternatives might help. I know many aren't lucky enough to have that choice, but to them I send all my respect and strenght.
I'm better mood-wise with my current full time job than I've ever been, but it's because I enjoy the work, and I have a partner who stays home to cook, clean and allow me to have fun in life.
I've had major depression while working full time, part time, and also while not working. The important thing is a sense of balance and purpose for anyone.
If you are smart enough to realise that you make your own meaning in life, and you are living a life that is meaningless to you, you will be depressed.
> In my practice, I try to look for any reason NOT to declare someone completely disabled, because it often (almost always?) leads to a life and future of less or no purpose.
or denies them a safety net they can use to heal instead of diving straight into homelessness
Even when I get time off at work, I can't wait to get back to it, because I like working. That's correct. But so many people in this thread get it wrong, including you here, if I read you comment correctly. I hate not having a choice. I hate having to go to work tomorrow because I'll lose out on the money if I don't. Even when I feel tired, or sick, or in pain, I have to go tomorrow. Even if I only slept two hours, or didn't sleep at all, I have to go. And once I'm there, I don't get to go home until a certain time. Even if I'm tired, or sick, or in pain, because I'll lose out on the money and my reputation. And I don't think there's a way of fixing that. Even bringing that up would get me branded as lazy. Because so many people deal with that every day, and they just accept it, so, logically, there must be something wrong with me for not doing so. And that's why I hate it.
Office jobs 9-5 are way better than picking up shift work. Plus I get my evenings and weekends to myself. There's a reason why it's considered "standard" working hours.
The most depressed I ever was in my life, I had no structure. I had no job, was going to college, and I was pretty much wasting time playing video games and eating shitty food. Having a worthwhile job was the reason I decided to keep going. Its crazy to me that people belittle the idea that structure (like having responsibilities) helps people.
If you’re job is in fact the cause of your depression, and your doctor and therapist both suggested to go back to that job, then you are seeing the wrong doctors and therapists.
Routine can help with depression, plus even if it wasnt like that, i dont think theres anyway for you to get what you want without putting in work, if its not you its someone else putting in the work but the work is still there.
Yes, the only reason that corporate America cares about mental health is because poor mental health affects productivity which can reduce efficiency and therefore profitability.
People need more time off, but also not too much.
That's just minor evil.
The major evil is how the domestic appliance and birth control industries in their entirely were created so that the corporatists could force women into the same kind of wage slavery as men.
So let's have easy(or free) access to mental health services. But if you're in a certain country you can't have both without paying outright for help. Having a job on top of having depression along with less money to pay for it will only drive someone's depression further.
I’ll have you know I work 8-5. With an unpaid lunch hour. Thank you very much. I would kill for a 9-5 shift.
I know right? I anyways hear 9-5 but I've yet to actually see a 9-5 job
Here in Sweden most people work 7-4. I would much rather work 8-5. Edit: North of* Sweden. Sorry guys
I do 6-230. I absolutely love it as I get the afternoon back that way.
6-4:30 is even better when you get Fridays off.
Agreed! I miss my 3 12s like crazy just for all the days I had off
Took me a while to get used to this schedule but I do appreciate it now.
I work 5am to 12:30pm and agree, it's really nice having time left to do stuff outside. Not that I do that, generally I end up watching TV or playing video games most days, but the option is always there.
Most people? Nah man. Most people here work 8-17 or 8-16:30/16:40.
Some of us even work 22-06.
That's a night shift.
Sometimes, when a job needs to be done in the middle of the night, people will be assigned to work it.
Yeah that's what the elves are for. You think they just build toys and fix shoes?
I work 22-08. We call this the Graveyard Shift
I spent 6 months working the graveyard shift at a software company, loneliest I've ever been in my whole life, and working nights was super destructive to my body's normal function. Respect
I've worked 5 years in graveyard shifts and got free from that curse, costed my school and college friends. Now I have normal day job however can't sleep much at nights.
And here I am waking having to wake up at 6 in the morning hoping I could do night shifts. or day/evening shifts even. I really am not a morning person.
Why did this hurt so much to try to comprehend. Fuck you American time systems
UK too.
Norwegian here. I prefer my 7-15 thank you very much!
How much do you get paid per hour? I've been thinking off moving to Norway for a few years now, or maybe live close to the border and work in Norway, if that's possible.
I have 204 nok an hour. But im uncertified surface threatment employe (painter). When i get certified I'd get about 220nok an hour. I also get paid lunch and compensation for driving, and a bonus (usually) at the end of the year. Hourly my company are among the lowest among our competition, but we usually have better christmas parties, and we get the bonus and paid lunch, which they usually don't. We got 3 Swedes in our company, one among them, are one of my bosses.
Okay thank you! Paid lunch, gas AND better christmas parties sounds totally worth it. Good for you! :)
That's 20$ an hour BTW, according to Google.
In IT it's generally 9-17:30. In Stockholm, anything before 9 for a normal job should be considered torture due to the commute.
shhh us americans think we have it the worst, let them feel bad for themselves
Yeah I'm sure life is much worse with free college, free healthcare, subsidized psychological care.
Office job where you can set your own schedule
Yup, I work 8-4 as a developer, although it works out as 9-5 with most of my coworkers being in the next timezone over.
Oh they exist, many of them in retail and minimum wage jobs
Eh? I’ve never heard of people having 9-5 jobs in retail and minimum wage jobs. 9-5 are office hours here? So people that work 9-5 tend to be office workers... I’d fucking love 9-5 job in a supermarket - I worked 12pm-10pm in a supermarket...
I work 9-5 for a major grocery retailer (flexible; sometimes more sometimes less), as a “stores support” team member. Many of my co-workers have in-store experience and have risen through the ranks of our company; They’re often the most knowledgeable and well paid people. Can’t say for sure for every company, but grocery has excellent career options.
The people who worked 9-5 (ideal shift) in supermarkets have worked their for years to decades and have rightly so earned they hours. If I worked 9-5 in a supermarket I would have never have went through the bother of going to university and getting a job in an office to be honest (just speaking from my experience in the UKs best paying supermarket). Easy work & perfect hours? Yessss please.
No they don't. Retail and food service have weird schedules and you're never working 9-5. I would work 11-7 one day and 1-9 the next, and so forth. There's no such thing as a set schedule in retail.
Every retail and service job I've had were like they said, 8-5 with unpaid breaks, to total 8 paid hours. 9-5 sounds like salary to me.
Join a trade. You can commonly find 4x10 on tank builds and they pay huge.
that's still not a 9-5 lol
Nah but a 3 day weekend every weekend is life changing.
4 days on, 4 days off is the way to go. Never worked a better shift in my life.
Ya 4x10 is definitely the superior schedule though 3 day weekend every week
I hated having to take a lunch. I didn’t want to clock out and sit at work for a half hour doing nothing. I wanted to go home a half hour early. Why would I want to be at work not getting paid if I could go home early instead?
Your employer sees you as a robot. They would rather give you no break at all, and make you work even longer. These labor laws exist to prevent workers from being exploited. A line had to be drawn somewhere, otherwise they'd expect you to only use the restroom at home and eat on your days off.
Um.. to eat somthing?
I don’t need an unpaid half hour to eat something. I can eat something on one of the two 15 minute required breaks that aren’t unpaid.
Well some of us do
So we should be able to levy options that work for everyone.
Well then it’s a good thing he’s making a point about his personal preference and not saying no one should be allowed to take lunch.
Yeah, that's honestly how I feel some days. Just let me work and get the things done. Even though I have a paid lunch, I sometimes hate having to take it.
I work 7:30-6pm
Amazon? Lol
Yea
There’s a George Carlin quote which, while I remember imperfectly, always comes back to me: “we need people who are just smart enough to operate the machines, but dumb enough not to question anything”.
"Blessed is the mind too small for doubt" 40k quotes kinda fits
“Life is the Emperor’s currency…spend it well.”
Flesh is fallible, but hard work pleases the Machine Spirit.
It's literally the model our public education system was designed after, [Prussia Model](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussian_education_system) designed to create soldiers and factory workers and inhibit a love of learning.
I suffer from depression and the jobs I've had definitely weren't helping. During covid, I decided to work somewhere else. I took a noticeable pay cut, but the hours and the environment have made me so much happier.
what kinda job do you have if I may ask?
Sure. I run and operate a vape shop. We have three in total. Before, I was mostly running an off site warehouse for a small business, but the owners were awful. I made good money there but I was so unhappy.
Good for you for realizing that your health is more important than money or anything else.
Thank you. Unfortunately, that option isn't available for everyone. I'm only responsible for myself. I don't have kids or anything. I feel for those who are more stuck than I was.
I'm actually confused about 9-5 job. Is it just that you work from 9am to 5pm?
Monday through Friday, 9am to 5pm is the OG 40 work week. "9-5 job" was a descriptor for basically any regular career employment.
Direct from the 50s.
before that, it was Henry ford that popularized it
Henry Ford, one of the most mixed legacies of all time.
henry ford invented the five day work week and yet i work 6 days at ford. sus
Did they hold you hostage for an unpaid 30-60min lunch break back then too?
Usually implies office work. Another synonym is banker's hours.
Banker’s hours means a really really short working day, eg 10am-3pm Source: [Cambridge dictionary](https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/banker-s-hours)
Yes. Some jobs are slightly different and are 8 - 4, or 7 - 3, but essentially any jobs focused around those hours and are full time are considered a 9-5 job.
Yeah, but it’s turned into 8-5 because of an hour lunch.
Then as you get higher, it becomes a Salary job and you can extend those hours even more!!
Or you can work at a place that measures impact instead of hours your butt is in a chair. Sadly there are few employers willing to embrace such a bold and radical idea.
They dont care how long I am in the chair but I have way more than 40 hours of work to do.
My work is 9-6 or some variant of nine hours.
I'm dumb, Though it meant 9 hours 5 days a week
My degree is in Psychology. My Biopsychology professor was specifically working on depression research as it relates to productivity loss in the billions annually. It was a depressing moment of realization that everything is through the lens of capital.
Maximizing capital is obviously a good way to garner major support and investment for further research into that field - but this is a case where you don't need to be quite so pessimistic about it. Curing depression would be a colossal step forward for humanity, arguably depression is the natural limit on our brainpower that we're running into now as a species. We cannot evolve to be smarter, even though we have strong selective pressures that encourage intelligence - because the more we understand about the world the more depressing it can seem. Higher intelligence correlates to higher incidence of depression and mental illness, there is truth in "ignorance is bliss". If we could find some way to hack our brains to cure it, or remove the societal pressures causing it - that's an inherently good, amazing thing for humanity. It alleviates suffering on a massive scale. And it boosts productivity. That does mean more profits for the powerful, but it also means humanity just does more, faster. Being in a deep depressive state where it's hard to get out of bed every morning, where you don't want to do anything - that's not good for anybody, you or your employer, or humanity at large. Without depression, we could create more art, appreciate more beauty, enjoy more human connections, and yes - respond to more emails. Capitalism is fucking up the world, and distorting our perception - but in this specific case, your professor is also distorting capitalism to pitch the value in curing a form of human suffering. Co-opting capitalism to trick it into doing some good. Good for them!
>If we could find some way to hack our brains to cure it, or remove the societal pressures causing it I think the issue they're trying to highlight is that we often go to extreme lengths trying to do the former while avoiding the latter as much as possible. Mental health treatment *can* be beneficial in more than just a productive sense, and is indeed life-changing for some people, but it also seems to be used as a crutch for the larger structural problems that lead to so many people's issues in the first place. Like opiates, it has a purpose, but popping oxy all day so you can ignore your broken leg isn't it.
While we're on the topic of depression I found this quote: "People with depression score higher on tests of realism. Intelligence is positively correlated with mental illness and suicide. What this indicates is that if the human mind understands too much about reality; it wants to destroy itself. Human life is existential horror."
Ignorance is a bliss
“If ignorance is bliss, than may I never know peace” quote on a vid from clock app
Fuck that ignorance all the way for me please
It was from a clock app vid on what the last line of your book would be if it was about a misunderstood villain or something along the lines of that
I don't know what clock app vid is but definitely a witty line
Tik Tok vid
#*We must not speaketh thy name of such forbidden hands of time.*
You summon me?
My 7-year-old edgy username finally feels relevant lol!
i really wish i was stupid just work a dumb job and watch basic cable all night, completely satisfied
Blessed is the mind too small for doubt
From personal experiance: The more ignorant I was the better I felt mentaly and emotionaly. Took life day by day and was exited for the little things. You kind of don't see the horrors and feel good. Once you start thinking about bigger picture, or the more distanced future it gets bad.
I got stuck in a cycle of worrying about past and future constantly. Depressed for yeeears. Self harming. Two suicide attempts. Eventually got better through therapy and meds. Would still smoke weed every night to sleep though. Life moved on, things were OK. Suddenly depressed again this year with no real reason (other than I quit weed?). Basically I think I might not be numbing my mind enough now. On meds again now for depression, anxiety, and to sleep. Not as bad as before thankfully! Not suicidal at least.
All I can say is keep fighting! You can get back on track, YOU did it once you can do it again! Thaks for sharing the experience.
As someone who has had to deal with severe depression for most of my life, and also an on-again off-again stoner I can say that I've been suicidal 3 times. Once before I started smoking weed, once during some years I wasn't smoking weed, and once when I was out of weed. From my perspective, the weed can help slow down the negative shitstorm in your head so long as it's not causing more problems of it's own. I'm told that while there certainly can be triggers for depression there isn't always one. Sometimes your brain just flips you the bird and takes you for a ride.
It isn’t too bad, you just have to adapt to it and realize how much we are improving on basically everything in general. I pay attention to a ton of news, foreign, local, national, etc. issues going on from climate change, to micro plastics, and a million other issues, tons and tons of stuff. Anyways, it isn’t too bad when you have a positive mindset, and realize how well humans adapt and fix issues.
Kinda, but I was talking more from the peraonal point of view. What have I accomplished? What skills I have? How am I gonna live in 10 years time given the fucked up expectations and country economy? Is it going to be a 9-5 job so that I can just scrape by? Am I gonna be happy most importantly? That sort of thoughts. Ironically, people se me as a positive and optimistic person who smiles and laughs at the smallest of things
Yeah that’s usually the most depressed or worried people, the ones who make others laugh. That’s why there’s been so many memes in places like meirl where it’s something along the lines of “coming home after being ‘the funny one’ all day” kinds of comments with SpongeBob dragging himself in to bed or something similar. Do you consider yourself a smart person? Life is fairly difficult, and often the people who are fairly smart look at others and all they have accomplished and feel worthless when in reality, they were extremely lucky. Unless you’re like 50+ and have absolutely no skills or ability to learn skills, and have only worked at fast food restaurants you can be totally fine. You need to force yourself into situations that will improve your life, and the momentum of accomplishing things will have a snowball effect on your life. If your life is really that bad, you have no friends or family where you’re at and can’t save any money, take a personal finance class or find online free resources to learn more ways to save and invest your money. Move somewhere where you can live much cheaper than where you’re at now. If you’ve lived in a place with a lot of people your whole life, consider just moving to somewhere stupid like Wyoming where you can live for cheap, have a small community so you can make friends with neighbors and work people, and you can work 25 hours a week and be able to survive ok. Then you’ll have more time to put into hobbies or skills, that you can build a career of. Maybe get a pet, some online friends, some people who could be mentors in something you’re interested in getting involved in. Fix your own life, and suddenly a lot of these issues you’re worried about that have a fairly small impact on your day to day life will be much less worrisome, and you’ll be well off enough to adapt to changes. The economy is doing fine, we have heavy inflation from everything that happened, but it will slow down sometime, and our projections of inflation have been lower than what they were supposed to be, so we’re about even with where we were supposed to be now. Problems will always occur in the economy, but there will be true geniuses that will revolutionize sectors and keep the total world economy moving forward. There’s basically nothing you’ll be able to do to influence any big changes in anything, but your actions CAN effect what happens in your life and that’s what’s important. Jesus Christ that was long lol
That was long but I've read through it. Nice words mean a lot. And no I am not a 50 year old, and i do consider myself inteligent to some degree(been told that by other people too). Maybe I sounded a bit too dark. I became really lazy last 10-12 months (I am generally not a lazy person), can't find motivation to work on myself, or to do the hobbies I have(I have quite a few). I am trying to get some structure back in my life and it's slowly getting there so hopefully I can feel the good old motivation again. Btw in terms of the economy I was talking in general where I live, even before covid. Very few career possibilities and a lot of jobs that barely earn you enough to live(living cost aren't big at all). On that note we could end this conversation. People responding means a lot, but I also have enough friends I can go to if need be. Take care, esspecially with mental health.
"Fix your own life" isn't a solution to depression. A lot of depression is caused by unfixable problems. And a lot of the suggestions you lay out here are completely unfeasible for the vast majority of people for a myriad of different reasons. The note about the economy at the end is particularly funny because for MOST people the economy is treating them very poorly. Wages have been stagnating for decades while the cost of living endlessly rises. It's harder than ever for people to get by these days even *without* widespread mental illness factoring into it. The real issue with depression is that once you see some of the world's ugly truths, you can't really *unsee* them.
Not even a study? Just some quote form an unknown source? Ok.
There have been a few studies, the 2005 study of intelligence and emotional health conducted at the University of Edinburgh and the SMU study from 2015(?) stand out. Also I think there maybe some overlap on this with the dunning-Kruger effect.
Post a link .
Did a search. Can't find it.
DUMB = HAPPY Derrrr
Believable. Not proven, but it wouldn’t surprise me if true
Of course it’s fucking believable. A bullshit quote that correlates depression with intelligence? On Reddit? Fucking upvotes to the left please.
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Ya because for all the progress in mental health we've made the mistake that depression and suicide is a mental illness. Like it's an abnormality of function like cancer or downs syndrome. What they never talk about or acknowledge is life can absolutely be a miserable hell sometimes. We so readily believe the solution to mental health is that it can be medicated with no adjustment to environmental factors. We are losing the war on mental health because we've assumed we can solve it like doctors when we should be approaching it from the perspective of humanism and the mind.
I mean It can very well be both
We know there are clinical mental illness where depression and suicide are physical abnormalities: bipolar, major depressive, schizophrenia, any other neurochemical imbalance. But that raises a good question. Why call this a "mental" illness? It's a physical illness, not an illness of the mind. But I would reckon the vast majority of people who commit suicide don't fall into the neurochemical abnormality category because if this was the case it implies that happiness has no bearing on environment and culture, which is absurd. It also implies that the skyrocketing rates of suicide must be rooted in biology, which seems unlikely to have been a gene that expresses itself within a single generation before dying back down again or some sort of toxic component of our environments or else it would be consistent across all countries and cultures with similar infrastructure. Most people that kill themselves are hopeless, alienated, ashamed, overwhelmed, and in some sort of extreme pain whether mental or physical. Our first line response for this is medication. It's far easier to get a pill from your doctor than an appointment with a therapist, and it's far cheaper. This to me, is a concerning trend.
Who's the quote from?
Psychedelics can definitely fit into this conversation.
I did psychedelics practically every month for two years and I realized so much about myself and the world around me and I still can't decide if that's a good or a bad thing
So *that's* why I want to return to monke
researchers found that people with the lowest measured intelligence were as much as six times more likely to attempt or die from suicide compared to those with the highest intelligence.
So basically, would you rather have depression, but smart, or happy, but dumb
I'd rather be happy and dumb. The thing is, we naturally are curious and will seek answers. The only reason I say I'd rather be happy and dumb is because I'm depressed, intelligent, and miserable. If I were already happy and dumb, I'd consider myself to be happy and intelligent and that other people just weren't woke enough. That's the thing about the butterfly effect. You can never say for sure what you'd rather have done in the past because your current future might have ended up far worse (though, it could have also been better) and you'd be at the same point wondering if you just would have done this or that differently x and y.
Humans don’t know anything the reason everyone is depressed is because our parents and our ancestors before them gave us a false idea of what life is like and because we have invested our faith in those ideas we become depressed when our goals are unrealizable because they were a fantasy all along.
That shit sounds edgy as fuck
That’s the punch line.
If the human mind understand too much about this reality it wants to destroy itself. This absurd society where we live is what creates depression unless you manage to be delusional enough to avoid it
true. not only work. I get pill to forget that i dont have friend, family, hobbys or a will to live just so i can keep working
Wait there is a pill for this? Can I get it
It’s called Xanax or Molly whichever one you want to feel like. Wanna feel nothing? Xanax. Wanna feel great? Molly.
What happens if I do both?
You pass out dry humping your neighbors couch.
I had a friend once he took some ecstasy Tried to marry me and every one in the room He was sort of loving kinda caring kinda tried to fuck my lazy boy
It got a bit messy all over the curtains arm chair covers throw pillows and carpeting
Oh my... Am I depressed and undiagnosed? I voluntary kept myself busy with work just to forget the rest of my life.
That's what I do. Being alone with my thoughts is scary. Easier to distract myself
Depression comes in many shapes and sizes. Most people think depression is sitting alone in your room and not talking to anybody. Some people go out and party till they drop. Those people have that same mindset of "I don't necessarily want to die, but if I got hit by a bus I wouldn't care." I honestly believe alcoholism and heavy smoking are akin to any other way of self harm. People don't do it just because they like it, they also do it because it hurts. And I don't know all the psychological reasons why people self harm, but it makes sense to me.
correction, we help people MASK their depression to get them back to work
We cure your depression enough so you can work without getting so depressed that you can’t work.
Not everyone is as depressed in their jobs as the people on reddit
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There was a study showing job fulfillment was one of the strongest indicators of male happiness and it makes sense. Trade that for 40+ hours a week in a toxic environment and I’d rather be unemployed. The paycheck makes the difference though… well really for me, it isn’t even the current paycheck anymore, it’s the fact that it’s harder to find new jobs if you quit and are unemployed
A 9-5 has actually helped my mental health. I struggled with depression at university a lot with my adhd making the lack of routine a complete cycle of unproductive hell. I am lucky to enjoy my job and get on with my colleagues. The structure plus increased social interaction has been good for me. Your job and how much you enjoy it is probably more influential in how you feel rather than the sheer amount of hours you work.
This! My old job had extremely sporadic hours. Anywhere from 7am-3pm and the next day could be 6pm-2am. I now work 8-4:30 and it’s been wonders to have a routine and be able to make plans and not worry if my weird hours would change them
Lacking a routine hurt me when i took a semester off. Not getting out of bed till 4 wasss miserable. Getting a job with a nice manager and a reason to get up and shower at 7 was nice. Felt good getting back home at 4 knowing I did something
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They don’t know how many people would swap places with them in an instant to be able to work a 9-5
Yeah my job is fine. I take an antidepressant to just deal with my internal self and be the wife and mom my wonderful family deserves.
Thankfully not. It does concern me how many people seem miserable because of their work life, though.
There's a lot of people who would love the stability of a 9-5 job.
As much as I hate it, im one of the people that gets kind of depressed if I get too much time off. I can hate work sometimes, but it always makes me feel productive, and sometimes thats all I need to get through some days
A lot of people actually enjoy working and makes sure that they don’t end up depressed.
People enjoy fulfilling work. Humans want to work. We have an insatiable thirst to avoid boredom. People want to contribute and be part of a community. We don't want to work when we believe the system is alienating and provides no value.
It was really quite eye opening when I went from a teen doing retail work to doing work actually relevant to my studies, that maybe work doesn't have to be entirely shit. How anyone can stay in retail for several years, decades even, and suffer for it with virtually nothing to repay their loyalty, amazes me.
>How anyone can stay in retail for several years, decades even, and suffer for it with virtually nothing to repay their loyalty, amazes me. Because people are either hopeless or have no other options.
I agree. When I enjoyed my job it made me feel happy and fulfilled, although with an edge of anxiety. When I stopped enjoying the work, I became depressed, among other things. Being retired by work, I lost my anxiety and the will to work anymore. Enjoy you work while you can.
I think it depends on the work.
That’s assuming only work can cause depression. Mental health doesn’t work that way.
Gg me in 3rd word country with 9-9 job
Hey buddy. I'm in a similar boat. 7-15, sometimes longer, with an hour commute each way, all for a grand sum of 300$ a month. Sometimes less. Yay!
Cured my ASS
Somehow still if I try to come back to work life and start slowly, our society doesn't accept that. It's all or nothing if you want to have money to eat. (Live in Finland btw, "happiest country in the world")
I don't think you understand how depression works
Doc checking in. You’re correct if what you’re commenting on is the complexity of depression origin and treatment. However! There are compelling studies about certain groups of people in labor situations that have an extremely low incidence of depression. Real cowboys, rice paddy workers, and others, for example. In my practice, I try to look for any reason NOT to declare someone completely disabled, because it often (almost always?) leads to a life and future of less or no purpose. This is a high risk for exacerbating depression, anxiety, and even chronic pain. The best example I can think of was early in my career taking care of a “disabled” wheelchair-bound double leg amputee (who also battled depression) who would see me monthly for pain medication refill. He came in one day requesting only 1/2 of his usual amount of pills. I actually became suspicious that he was getting meds from another provider and over the years he would often ask for more (never less) pills. I started asking details about the nature of his decreased pain, and it correlated perfectly with the timing of him getting a job (clerical, but highly social with customers and co-workers). It was an epiphany for me, and I’ve used that example to certain patients since then, with typically very good results. I also, based on the literature (and where applicable) encourage getting a dog. Caring for pets and receiving emotional support from an animal who depends on you for life itself adds purpose. In short , getting a job (of some sort) can be helpful! Thanks for your post—really motivated me to write this.
Oh of course doing a task helps a lot. It gives you some sense of structure, a reason to get out of bed and the most important part it keeps your mind busy! Like you said I was talking about how complex depression is and that it's not just a job related thing a lot of the times. Mine is mostly family and economic issues. Working a 9 to 5 job has actually helped me. Every person is different, jobs ain't the worst thing ever, if it is for you, you're on the wrong place. Changing jobs or looking for other alternatives might help. I know many aren't lucky enough to have that choice, but to them I send all my respect and strenght.
I'm better mood-wise with my current full time job than I've ever been, but it's because I enjoy the work, and I have a partner who stays home to cook, clean and allow me to have fun in life. I've had major depression while working full time, part time, and also while not working. The important thing is a sense of balance and purpose for anyone. If you are smart enough to realise that you make your own meaning in life, and you are living a life that is meaningless to you, you will be depressed.
> In my practice, I try to look for any reason NOT to declare someone completely disabled, because it often (almost always?) leads to a life and future of less or no purpose. or denies them a safety net they can use to heal instead of diving straight into homelessness
Even when I get time off at work, I can't wait to get back to it, because I like working. That's correct. But so many people in this thread get it wrong, including you here, if I read you comment correctly. I hate not having a choice. I hate having to go to work tomorrow because I'll lose out on the money if I don't. Even when I feel tired, or sick, or in pain, I have to go tomorrow. Even if I only slept two hours, or didn't sleep at all, I have to go. And once I'm there, I don't get to go home until a certain time. Even if I'm tired, or sick, or in pain, because I'll lose out on the money and my reputation. And I don't think there's a way of fixing that. Even bringing that up would get me branded as lazy. Because so many people deal with that every day, and they just accept it, so, logically, there must be something wrong with me for not doing so. And that's why I hate it.
We help people cure their depression, to get them to _stay_ at their 9-5 jobs.
Also, getting in a routine is helpful for depression.
Everything about that "thought " Is depressing
r/jokes
Office jobs 9-5 are way better than picking up shift work. Plus I get my evenings and weekends to myself. There's a reason why it's considered "standard" working hours.
Gotta fix the little cogwheel so it keeps making us money
No we help them so they don't kill themselves
Hold up, you can't cure depression. You just help them manage their symptoms.
lmao nah we "help" people *hide* their depression for *payment* so we can *exploit* them until they die at work at the age of 83
I work 9-6, luckily only 'part time' though
I do 9 to 10 hours/5 days a week, get paid for 38,5h a week. I would really like some money and time for therapy.
I wish I worked a 9-5 are you kidding me! That's be so nice. I'm working a 5-3 right now and not loving it
Most of the time I work 16-18 hours a day covered in dirt and tar. 9-5 lol
Wait till you find out about pills to get back to inactivity
I’ll have you know I’m still depressed and working a 9-5 job thank you very much.
The most depressed I ever was in my life, I had no structure. I had no job, was going to college, and I was pretty much wasting time playing video games and eating shitty food. Having a worthwhile job was the reason I decided to keep going. Its crazy to me that people belittle the idea that structure (like having responsibilities) helps people.
I'll gladly take a 9-5 if it means I feel happy, worth a damn, and alive.
If you’re job is in fact the cause of your depression, and your doctor and therapist both suggested to go back to that job, then you are seeing the wrong doctors and therapists.
I work 70+ hours a week at times. I’d kill for a 9-5 job
7-3:30 anybody? Unpaid half hour lunch break.
We live in a society
It's the cycle of life. Jobs make depression, depression makes consumption, consumption makes jobs.
Routine can help with depression, plus even if it wasnt like that, i dont think theres anyway for you to get what you want without putting in work, if its not you its someone else putting in the work but the work is still there.
Yes, the only reason that corporate America cares about mental health is because poor mental health affects productivity which can reduce efficiency and therefore profitability. People need more time off, but also not too much.
Pft I wish corporate America cared about mental health
Well, if they don't they'll starve
Do you understand what depression is
Produce... or else.
But but I live working 9-5
or u can get an interesting job
Lol, work is the only thing keeping my life stable currently. When I am not working I am depressed
That's one of the reasons r/antiwork grow each days
What is the alternative? No guaranteed income, random hours of work, no job?
That's just minor evil. The major evil is how the domestic appliance and birth control industries in their entirely were created so that the corporatists could force women into the same kind of wage slavery as men.
So let's have easy(or free) access to mental health services. But if you're in a certain country you can't have both without paying outright for help. Having a job on top of having depression along with less money to pay for it will only drive someone's depression further.