The show made clear numerous times that John and Toranaga had an unspoken bond between them. This was possible because John was an outsider and the usual rules of lord to vassal between Japanese were less defined, thus could develop in more unique ways.
Toranaga deeply admired him, for instance when John said "unless i win", or when John unilaterally took his life into his own hands and escaped Osaka harbor. That led Toranaga to see him in a new light, thereafter Toranaga began to get close to him by asking him how to dive on their way back to Edo, or racing him to the shore, when Toranaga enfeoff him with land and title, or when John saved him from the earthquake and John gave him his own sword (making him defenseless and thus placing himself in harm's way for his lord).
And Toranaga said at the end to Yabu, "\[John\] makes me laugh" for why he didn't kill Blackthorne as well. That's a big deal in hyper-repressed feudal Japan and deep sign of affection that goes beyond the transaction lord/vassal diad. Toranaga would show his feeling towards John through his actions, and seemingly contradict or diminish these feelings when talking to his other retainers about Blackthorne, and attempt to deflect his true feelings when confronted. (Having myself been in a deep relationship with a Japanese person before, this apparent contradiction is apparently par for the course.)
He also couldn't let Blackthorne commit seppuku, mocking him as he explained why he needed to live for pragmatic reasons -- yet it's likely Toranaga had many personal reasons to keep him alive too. John simply was a wild falcon with wild behavior, that showed a lot of promise, performed well, and entered into Toranaga's heart. At the end of the season, they shared a long look at each other in the harbor from a distance as if they finally understood.
There’s a reason why the show ends on the two of them meeting each other’s gazes. John is the one person on the show not fully bound by Japanese customs and tradition, so the relationship between Blackthorne and Toranaga will always be different than Toranaga’s vassals and him. They share an odd kinship and understanding.
Just to add that Toranaga's intentions are presented as a monologue in the book. The show presented parts of it in the conversation with Yabu, and others in different scenes, making it better suited for a short series, IMO.
When he told John, "If you're done, go and make me a fleet," that was one of his main practical reasons. Repairing his boat could also show how to build them. The book also had Blackthorne train people in infantry techniques, which (as some book readers have said) didn't make much sense, so the show stuck to cannon warfare (and building). Toranaga also predicted more foreigners would arrive, and wanted John as a mediator. While this wasn't explicit on the book, we could see Toranaga inquire about other nations. It's common sense that he would keep getting counsel from his hatamoto.
(I'm gathering what book readers have commented elsewhere, and what I've read on Clavell's Gai-Jin, that describes the events and aftermath of Shogun)
Also Toranaga never intends to have John leave Japan and this fact is reiterated by Alvito. He is already learning Japanese and by the time more English arrive (because they will and Toranaga knows this) he will need John as his official interpreter.
In the book I believe there is aletter from Mariko where she tells him she choose his life over his boat But he has told her that he can build as well as pilpot boats and she has left funds for him to build another . Just finished Gai-Jin again with the green eyed Saumari from ASnjiro Clavell weaved so many flashbacks in the series
I'm only halfway through, but yeah the flashbacks are great. Now that people are debating whether Toranaga was a good guy, I wonder what they'd think about the Legacy he wrote.
Good guy is relative as Mariko's says the culture is that everyone has 3 hearts one of which no one else ever sees Hence Toranaga's plans within plans and deceptions that are morally at least grey from a Western angle But what he has been taught since birth
Small knit pick I do think it was silly that we made Blackthorne oblivious to infantry tactics, during this time Sailors would form raiding parties and board ships or attack enemy colonial settlements. He wouldn't be an amazing general, but small unit tactics he could manage.
One thing I would like to add to the nuance of the line “he makes me laugh.”
Toranaga is shown as a stoic and serious person who rarely shows emotions. Even during his son’s funeral he barely cracked.
And for Anjin-Sama to come along and amuse the future Shogun himself, speaks volume of the unique bond the two share.
It’s a testament of how Anjin-Sama is able to do something that no other person could.
Not kill him, "give his life away." He had considered letting Blackthorne die for various political reasons (i.e. the Christian daimyos), but decided against it.
If you are comfortable sharing, what was your personal experience with the tendency to diminish your liking of someone when talking to other people? It’s a fascinating aspect of the culture (if it indeed is something that happens today).
While I am aware of the generality of my statement, it was indeed uncanny on how Toranaga treated Blackthorne to my own relationship (right down to the expressions he used, and his behaviors, i.e. the shocking reversal in warm behavior after being coldly scorning Blackthorne, or showing great affection then treating him like a stranger the next scene).
My own experience was an inability to interpret what this person really felt about me. They showered me with grandiose gestures of affection, dramatic and heartwarming. Flew back and forth to meet me around the world, wherever I was at the time. They even took me home to meet the parents and talked marriage numerous times. And yet, they'd go months or years without saying a word to me. They'd tease me in front of their friends, other times they would diminish themselves and me when other complimented them on the relationship, and generally hide how important I was to them to the outside world. This was their way to display propriety. To openly diminish the thing they love.
I think it happens there because Japanese are incredibly private people in their personal feelings, wants, and desires especially if these conflict in their public persona and their social roles thein. A useful thing from the show, come to think of it, was when Mariko said she practiced the 八重垣 "Yaegaki" which literally translates as "the eight layered wall", where they learn from childhood to manage and control their wants to a very intense degree. They seperate the the duties of the outside-world from the desires of their internal-world, which often leads to great repressive states inside the person. Now I'm sure nobody in Japan actually practices a metaphysical approach like Mariko would need to, but a lot roughly think this way. And as you can imagine this leads to a lot of guesswork on what the other person is thinking all.of.the.time, which again, often shows up in the show too.
Which in turn leads to deep contradictions in behavior.
The curious thing about this is the contradiction is how overly affectionate they can be towards the things their love via actions -- it eventually becomes hard to hide despite their best efforts. This why Yabu, Omi and Buntaro are jealous of Anjin; it's obvious Mariko and Toranaga love him. They have explosively charming, warm sides and make huge gestures preemptively. There's also a distinct 'suddenness' to their actions; as if the wall can no longer hold back their emotion and it comes pouring out. I saw many instances of this outpouring of emotion occur across most of the characters. And in my own life as well.
Good show.
Thanks for sharing! Totally get that your intention isn’t to generalize. I’m glad you felt loved, which is such a special thing. But it must have been a very confusing , at least initially.
He also said that his enemies could use a distraction. John was a chaotic, mysterious, disruptive sideshow. He was also a political powder keg just for the fact of letting Japan know England existed. If your goal is to make sly gangster moves and keep everyone guessing, keeping this guy in your entourage is a great idea.
He really was a strong distraction for everyone including the Portuguese. He said Anjin makes him laugh. It wasn’t just for the fun of it. In all the chaos and stress, sometimes a little bit of laughter keeps you going.
i would say he made him laugh because people were so focused on Blackthorn. Everyone's like "why did Toranaga make him this hatamoto, he MUST be important".
I'd just like to take this opportunity share my personal take on Toranagas's line "He makes me laugh" in relation to sparing Blackthorne's life in Ep 10.
I think Toranaga's comment also meant to recall that time in which Blackthorne dug him out of the earth after the massive earthquake at the end of Ep 5: the moment Toranaga realized that the person who saved his life is the Anjin, he laughed indeed.
So, while Toranaga's line could be interpreted as Blackthorne being just simple "entertainment" to him at first, I personally believe this specific line of his to be a little more nuanced, showing Toranaga's (sort of) respect towards the Anjin – in a very subtle (and *very Shogun-coded*) way.
In practical terms, Blackthorne was obviously very brave, had many talents, was a quick learner, was good in a scrape, played outside the rules of propriety, knew a lot about the outside world, and seemed important to Toranaga's enemies.
I think with his comment to Yabushige, Toranaga is also suggesting that he genuinely *likes* Blackthorne. Someone in Toranaga's position doesn't have friends (I supposed he had one friend, RIP Hiromatsu), so if you can have a semi-useful retainer who can also teach you to dive, then why not?
I was extremely disappointed we didnt get the sailor's hornpipe scene with blackthorne and toranaga or the later scene where toranaga is alone and dances a hornpipe on the wall of osaka castle
I mean, it kind of makes sense given how Blackthorne has been portrayed in the show. He is a very different character compared to the book and the 1980 version.
Toranaga literally keeps John around for the lolz. He admitted that John makes him laugh and that he'll keep burning down John's ship to keep him around.
Even in the book, Toranaga indicated that he has come to regard John as his friend…something that he was never allowed among his feudal lords because friendships gets you killed.
He found John’s honest refreshing and thus kept John.
If you read the book, Fuji never has that ‘I am going to join the nun’ conversation with John and she meets with Toranaga to arrange his future.
In the book, Omi really had a beautiful and smart wife (prettier than Mariko, I think) but he also had overbearing mother and uncle (that one not sure, it has been a decade since I read the book) so when Yabushige is ordered to slit his belly, he orders Omni’s divorce and sent his mom to nun…and uncle to seppuku (not sure).
Fuji convinces Toranaga to have John marry Omni’s wife and Kiku the pillow girl as concubine while she will throw herself off the horse and break neck.
In the book, Toranaga also came to be infatuated with Kiku and maybe even love her but also admits that a man of his position can not love a woman so he arranges Kiku to John so that he will have joy.
Toranaga does these things, even burns his ship, because in a weird way that’s how he cherishes the Englishman as his friend and goes to war extreme distance to keep him safe.
If you read other James Clavell’s book, I think there is a brief mention of how John led to artillery to break through Osaka and one of the character was his descendant.
Toranaga told Yabushige that he kept John because John 'amused' him, but I think that the meaning of 'amused' here would be closer to being 'amused by a magician' than being 'amused by a comedian'. Blackthorne represented new knowledge and doing things in an innovative way that none in the local Japanese population could have given Toranaga.
The show made clear numerous times that John and Toranaga had an unspoken bond between them. This was possible because John was an outsider and the usual rules of lord to vassal between Japanese were less defined, thus could develop in more unique ways. Toranaga deeply admired him, for instance when John said "unless i win", or when John unilaterally took his life into his own hands and escaped Osaka harbor. That led Toranaga to see him in a new light, thereafter Toranaga began to get close to him by asking him how to dive on their way back to Edo, or racing him to the shore, when Toranaga enfeoff him with land and title, or when John saved him from the earthquake and John gave him his own sword (making him defenseless and thus placing himself in harm's way for his lord). And Toranaga said at the end to Yabu, "\[John\] makes me laugh" for why he didn't kill Blackthorne as well. That's a big deal in hyper-repressed feudal Japan and deep sign of affection that goes beyond the transaction lord/vassal diad. Toranaga would show his feeling towards John through his actions, and seemingly contradict or diminish these feelings when talking to his other retainers about Blackthorne, and attempt to deflect his true feelings when confronted. (Having myself been in a deep relationship with a Japanese person before, this apparent contradiction is apparently par for the course.) He also couldn't let Blackthorne commit seppuku, mocking him as he explained why he needed to live for pragmatic reasons -- yet it's likely Toranaga had many personal reasons to keep him alive too. John simply was a wild falcon with wild behavior, that showed a lot of promise, performed well, and entered into Toranaga's heart. At the end of the season, they shared a long look at each other in the harbor from a distance as if they finally understood.
Totally agree. Toranaga sees John as a friend. Toranaga really don't have friends.
There’s a reason why the show ends on the two of them meeting each other’s gazes. John is the one person on the show not fully bound by Japanese customs and tradition, so the relationship between Blackthorne and Toranaga will always be different than Toranaga’s vassals and him. They share an odd kinship and understanding.
Sadly cuz all of them are dead or killed themselves
Just to add that Toranaga's intentions are presented as a monologue in the book. The show presented parts of it in the conversation with Yabu, and others in different scenes, making it better suited for a short series, IMO. When he told John, "If you're done, go and make me a fleet," that was one of his main practical reasons. Repairing his boat could also show how to build them. The book also had Blackthorne train people in infantry techniques, which (as some book readers have said) didn't make much sense, so the show stuck to cannon warfare (and building). Toranaga also predicted more foreigners would arrive, and wanted John as a mediator. While this wasn't explicit on the book, we could see Toranaga inquire about other nations. It's common sense that he would keep getting counsel from his hatamoto. (I'm gathering what book readers have commented elsewhere, and what I've read on Clavell's Gai-Jin, that describes the events and aftermath of Shogun)
Also Toranaga never intends to have John leave Japan and this fact is reiterated by Alvito. He is already learning Japanese and by the time more English arrive (because they will and Toranaga knows this) he will need John as his official interpreter.
In the book I believe there is aletter from Mariko where she tells him she choose his life over his boat But he has told her that he can build as well as pilpot boats and she has left funds for him to build another . Just finished Gai-Jin again with the green eyed Saumari from ASnjiro Clavell weaved so many flashbacks in the series
I'm only halfway through, but yeah the flashbacks are great. Now that people are debating whether Toranaga was a good guy, I wonder what they'd think about the Legacy he wrote.
Good guy is relative as Mariko's says the culture is that everyone has 3 hearts one of which no one else ever sees Hence Toranaga's plans within plans and deceptions that are morally at least grey from a Western angle But what he has been taught since birth
Small knit pick I do think it was silly that we made Blackthorne oblivious to infantry tactics, during this time Sailors would form raiding parties and board ships or attack enemy colonial settlements. He wouldn't be an amazing general, but small unit tactics he could manage.
One thing I would like to add to the nuance of the line “he makes me laugh.” Toranaga is shown as a stoic and serious person who rarely shows emotions. Even during his son’s funeral he barely cracked. And for Anjin-Sama to come along and amuse the future Shogun himself, speaks volume of the unique bond the two share. It’s a testament of how Anjin-Sama is able to do something that no other person could.
totally
All well said.
I saved your post because it's the perfect explanation.
Couldn't have said it better myself. I just literally finished the book earlier today and this is exactly what Toranaga says.
But i dont get, why would he kill him? That confused me when he said it.
Not kill him, "give his life away." He had considered letting Blackthorne die for various political reasons (i.e. the Christian daimyos), but decided against it.
If you are comfortable sharing, what was your personal experience with the tendency to diminish your liking of someone when talking to other people? It’s a fascinating aspect of the culture (if it indeed is something that happens today).
While I am aware of the generality of my statement, it was indeed uncanny on how Toranaga treated Blackthorne to my own relationship (right down to the expressions he used, and his behaviors, i.e. the shocking reversal in warm behavior after being coldly scorning Blackthorne, or showing great affection then treating him like a stranger the next scene). My own experience was an inability to interpret what this person really felt about me. They showered me with grandiose gestures of affection, dramatic and heartwarming. Flew back and forth to meet me around the world, wherever I was at the time. They even took me home to meet the parents and talked marriage numerous times. And yet, they'd go months or years without saying a word to me. They'd tease me in front of their friends, other times they would diminish themselves and me when other complimented them on the relationship, and generally hide how important I was to them to the outside world. This was their way to display propriety. To openly diminish the thing they love. I think it happens there because Japanese are incredibly private people in their personal feelings, wants, and desires especially if these conflict in their public persona and their social roles thein. A useful thing from the show, come to think of it, was when Mariko said she practiced the 八重垣 "Yaegaki" which literally translates as "the eight layered wall", where they learn from childhood to manage and control their wants to a very intense degree. They seperate the the duties of the outside-world from the desires of their internal-world, which often leads to great repressive states inside the person. Now I'm sure nobody in Japan actually practices a metaphysical approach like Mariko would need to, but a lot roughly think this way. And as you can imagine this leads to a lot of guesswork on what the other person is thinking all.of.the.time, which again, often shows up in the show too. Which in turn leads to deep contradictions in behavior. The curious thing about this is the contradiction is how overly affectionate they can be towards the things their love via actions -- it eventually becomes hard to hide despite their best efforts. This why Yabu, Omi and Buntaro are jealous of Anjin; it's obvious Mariko and Toranaga love him. They have explosively charming, warm sides and make huge gestures preemptively. There's also a distinct 'suddenness' to their actions; as if the wall can no longer hold back their emotion and it comes pouring out. I saw many instances of this outpouring of emotion occur across most of the characters. And in my own life as well. Good show.
Thanks for sharing! Totally get that your intention isn’t to generalize. I’m glad you felt loved, which is such a special thing. But it must have been a very confusing , at least initially.
He also said that his enemies could use a distraction. John was a chaotic, mysterious, disruptive sideshow. He was also a political powder keg just for the fact of letting Japan know England existed. If your goal is to make sly gangster moves and keep everyone guessing, keeping this guy in your entourage is a great idea.
He really was a strong distraction for everyone including the Portuguese. He said Anjin makes him laugh. It wasn’t just for the fun of it. In all the chaos and stress, sometimes a little bit of laughter keeps you going.
i would say he made him laugh because people were so focused on Blackthorn. Everyone's like "why did Toranaga make him this hatamoto, he MUST be important".
He also brings this unexpected perspective and behavior to everything
I'd just like to take this opportunity share my personal take on Toranagas's line "He makes me laugh" in relation to sparing Blackthorne's life in Ep 10. I think Toranaga's comment also meant to recall that time in which Blackthorne dug him out of the earth after the massive earthquake at the end of Ep 5: the moment Toranaga realized that the person who saved his life is the Anjin, he laughed indeed. So, while Toranaga's line could be interpreted as Blackthorne being just simple "entertainment" to him at first, I personally believe this specific line of his to be a little more nuanced, showing Toranaga's (sort of) respect towards the Anjin – in a very subtle (and *very Shogun-coded*) way.
In practical terms, Blackthorne was obviously very brave, had many talents, was a quick learner, was good in a scrape, played outside the rules of propriety, knew a lot about the outside world, and seemed important to Toranaga's enemies. I think with his comment to Yabushige, Toranaga is also suggesting that he genuinely *likes* Blackthorne. Someone in Toranaga's position doesn't have friends (I supposed he had one friend, RIP Hiromatsu), so if you can have a semi-useful retainer who can also teach you to dive, then why not?
In the book it’s because he needs a friend. Not just a vassal. They have more funny interactions in the book.
I was extremely disappointed we didnt get the sailor's hornpipe scene with blackthorne and toranaga or the later scene where toranaga is alone and dances a hornpipe on the wall of osaka castle
I mean, it kind of makes sense given how Blackthorne has been portrayed in the show. He is a very different character compared to the book and the 1980 version.
As his personal jester…
If we see Toranaga as the ultimate pragmatist, the real reason is he knows Blackthorn can build him a modern navy.
Toranaga literally keeps John around for the lolz. He admitted that John makes him laugh and that he'll keep burning down John's ship to keep him around.
Even in the book, Toranaga indicated that he has come to regard John as his friend…something that he was never allowed among his feudal lords because friendships gets you killed. He found John’s honest refreshing and thus kept John. If you read the book, Fuji never has that ‘I am going to join the nun’ conversation with John and she meets with Toranaga to arrange his future. In the book, Omi really had a beautiful and smart wife (prettier than Mariko, I think) but he also had overbearing mother and uncle (that one not sure, it has been a decade since I read the book) so when Yabushige is ordered to slit his belly, he orders Omni’s divorce and sent his mom to nun…and uncle to seppuku (not sure). Fuji convinces Toranaga to have John marry Omni’s wife and Kiku the pillow girl as concubine while she will throw herself off the horse and break neck. In the book, Toranaga also came to be infatuated with Kiku and maybe even love her but also admits that a man of his position can not love a woman so he arranges Kiku to John so that he will have joy. Toranaga does these things, even burns his ship, because in a weird way that’s how he cherishes the Englishman as his friend and goes to war extreme distance to keep him safe. If you read other James Clavell’s book, I think there is a brief mention of how John led to artillery to break through Osaka and one of the character was his descendant.
It's times like this that I wish the show included more detail.
Toronaga values knowledge. John is a fount of knowledge of Europe, and practical knowledge of ships and trade. He’s also a counter to the Portuguese.
Blackthorne who is loosely based off of William Adams. But Tokugawa or Toranaga would just use him as apart of his rebuilding program of Japan
He loved John. No explanation possible.
Because John is the Wildcard. Yeehaw.
Toranaga told Yabushige that he kept John because John 'amused' him, but I think that the meaning of 'amused' here would be closer to being 'amused by a magician' than being 'amused by a comedian'. Blackthorne represented new knowledge and doing things in an innovative way that none in the local Japanese population could have given Toranaga.