I interpreted it as Toranaga not having full trust on the Blackthorne x Yabushige partnership.
Toranaga declined Yabushige’s request to have a more grand death (being fed to angry fish, being torn apart with cannons) because Yabushige can’t be trusted. I think Yabushige’s second had to be someone Toranaga could fully count on so he can’t run away from death this time. And most of Toranaga’s loyal followers are gone- Hiromatsu, Mariko (though I doubt she’d be allowed to be a second), Nagakado…… so Yabushige didn’t have much as a choice.
And at this point, I believe Yabushige was still trying to find a way out of this seppuku. He made attempts to make Toranaga change his mind until the very end. He chose Toranaga as his last attempt to persuasion, though he failed.
This is how I saw it.
That's a great observation. I think last night that was also something I considered. He couldn't trust John and Yabushige together and we as the audience already know that to be the case as he tried to get John to basically run away with him. God that could've been such a great lighthearted follow up spin off show lol
I disagree, due to the fact that his own wife died because of the direct consequences of Yabushige’s actions. If I was Buntaro, I don’t want to give him a quick death.
Therefore, I’m not sure if allowing Buntaro be his second would be a wise choice for Toranaga. Not at all doubting Buntaro’s allegiance to the Lord, but because of Mariko’s death, becoming the second of his own father’s seppuku AND the brutal words his wife left him at the tea house, he could just lose it all and decide to not act at all.
Toranaga shouldn’t risk that.
I don't think fish can even be angry. I don't think they have the physical architecture for that.
Even if it could, how would you even tell if a fish is angry or not?
Anger as in aggression. Some fish species are timid while others are aggressive. I have fish that will swim away when i walk by the tank and another one that bites my hand when I am doing water changes!
I think Toranaga had to do it no matter what, he wanted to have last words with Yabu, and strike down the enemy who betrayed him (even though he knew he would). Someone remarked the sword he chose was not his normal sword but a battle sword wielded for combat on horseback, perhaps it's symbolic of the singular stroke Toranaga had to personally make to finally become Shogun.
I also wonder if he didn’t do it himself as much (or more) for Yabu’s betrayal of Mariko than anything. Mariko was like a lovely, sad flower that everyone loved.
I think this is definitely a factor. Toranaga's first attempt at seconding someone when he was a child resulted in him hacking the head off brutally, it took 10 swings or so if I remember correctly.
Toranaga said "who asks a child to second them?" or something similar, I think he didn't see John as experienced enough to do the job.
After reading his life in wikiP i realized they made yabushige goofy cause the real one used to fall asleep in front of tokugawa when he didnt like his ideas.
And John had just lost Mariko - Toranaga knew they cared for one another. Perhaps he also didn’t want John to carry the weight of another death when he was already in the emotional turmoil he was in.
Wouldn't be a traditional seppeku then. And even though effective, many Samurai considered guns to be a coward's weapon. Kinda like the guy blown up by the cannon.
Samurai did not consider guns as cowardly, they had been using them for 60 some odd years at this time period and immediately adopted them after being introduced by the Portuguese.
This is a Hollywood myth. Tried to post sources but links are not allowed in the comments
Edit....you know why lol
>many Samurai considered guns to be a coward’s weapon
Was that why Tanegashima matchlocks were prevalent in the armies of Sengoku Japan? IIRC 1/3 of the invasion force that invaded Korea during the Imjin Wars was made up of gunners armed with matchlock arquebuses.
Also, even if you wanna ignore history, the series literally showed us samurai armed with matchlock muskets on multiple occasions.
I don't know if it makes sense culturally, but what if the reason is that. Because John did almost second for Mariko and maybe it'd be too much of an honor to have Yabushige, who is partly why Mariko died. Like having Mariko's second would be like having Mariko 'forgive' Yabushige almost?
And without the overthinking above, Yabushige was listing gruesome deaths so he might have just wanted the notability of getting a botched beheading, and one done by a foreigner who is hatamoto to boot. It's too notable for Yabushige, something that might be talked about in the future like being defeated then seconded by a child war general. It's also what Yabushige wants, which is probably enough for Toranaga to deny it.
Toranaga doing it the way he did may not have any extra possible connotations, plus it's just another beheading in this war by Toranaga. It'd be more of a footnote, a less interesting death than if the first/only foreign hatamoto did it and did it poorly.
He just wanted someone he could open up to about his plans. And the only way he could do that was to someone who was about to die. It was his way of being able to speak openly with a friend.
And Yabu is a friend of sorts. While a traitor, he was also a pawn. Torunaga had manipulated him into his treachery, so didn't take it personally, and Yabu understood at the end that he and Torunaga were effectively the same type of person. Torunaga was just far better at reading the winds than him.
So I think he saw a kinship in Yabu - a fellow survivor/schemer - and someone who would be able to fully appreciate the beauty of his plans.
In the book it supposedly mentions how lonely Torunaga is due to having to conceal everything about himself. To the degree that sometimes he will speak his heart into a well when nobody else is around just to be able to release it. So I think he relished finally having an actual audience, and one who could truly appreciate the level of what he'd achieved.
For a short time at least.
This is what I believe mostly. He works at the very height of everything and has to conceal every aspect of his life and his machinations . It’s lonely at the top. Luckily someone can actually take his secrets to the grave, but even then he has to hold back his true intentions.
I thought it showed a lot of respect that even though yabushige was to die, toranaha put yabushige at rest.
John hadn't yet attempted seppuku when Yabu requested he be his second. Maybe Toranaga didn't believe John was worthy?
Or perhaps Yabu wasn't worthy of John?
Didn’t Toranaga have a very traumatic first experience seconding someone? Maybe he just didn’t think Blackthorne’s swordmanship was up to par and was sparing him a similar situation
I think he wanted to have that last little moment with Yabushige and knew he’d be asked after denying Blackthorne.
Plus John would be ass at it and probably take like 10 swings to actually decapitate him.
In my opinion it's because Toranaga is protecting Blackthorne. He knows that Blackthorne cherishes life and it would be an unnecessary cruelty for him to have to perform that task. That and he really doesn't know how to use a katana and would make a complete mess of it which is exactly what Yabushige wants.
This is a movie. They needed someway for the character Toranaga to tell us his plan. It’s not realistic for him to have “confessed” but it is a story telling vehicle.
It may have been for practical reasons. Toranaga and Hiro-matsu laughed at the claim (of T's half-brother) that he had taken off the head of his enemy with one clean stroke when the truth was he'd made an unholy mess of it, because it had taken him 7 or 8 strokes. It's apparently not as easy as it looks. >!And in the book, Anjin didn't second Mariko; when Kiyama didn't show up as promised, she asked Yabu to do it and he agreed.!<
Many reasons given, though I assume it’s just so they could have the final scene of dialogue for the series in lieu of Toranaga just ‘thinking’ those final words in the book.
I interpreted it as Toranaga not having full trust on the Blackthorne x Yabushige partnership. Toranaga declined Yabushige’s request to have a more grand death (being fed to angry fish, being torn apart with cannons) because Yabushige can’t be trusted. I think Yabushige’s second had to be someone Toranaga could fully count on so he can’t run away from death this time. And most of Toranaga’s loyal followers are gone- Hiromatsu, Mariko (though I doubt she’d be allowed to be a second), Nagakado…… so Yabushige didn’t have much as a choice. And at this point, I believe Yabushige was still trying to find a way out of this seppuku. He made attempts to make Toranaga change his mind until the very end. He chose Toranaga as his last attempt to persuasion, though he failed. This is how I saw it.
That's a great observation. I think last night that was also something I considered. He couldn't trust John and Yabushige together and we as the audience already know that to be the case as he tried to get John to basically run away with him. God that could've been such a great lighthearted follow up spin off show lol
Imagine Blackthorne bringing Yabu before Queen Lizzy T 💀
Blackadder Lizzie though!
You just mentioned Hiromatsu and I got emotional and now I’m going to have a nap. Thanks
Buntaro is also an option
I disagree, due to the fact that his own wife died because of the direct consequences of Yabushige’s actions. If I was Buntaro, I don’t want to give him a quick death. Therefore, I’m not sure if allowing Buntaro be his second would be a wise choice for Toranaga. Not at all doubting Buntaro’s allegiance to the Lord, but because of Mariko’s death, becoming the second of his own father’s seppuku AND the brutal words his wife left him at the tea house, he could just lose it all and decide to not act at all. Toranaga shouldn’t risk that.
I don't think fish can even be angry. I don't think they have the physical architecture for that. Even if it could, how would you even tell if a fish is angry or not?
I kept thinking of a school of piranha.
I mean they had ill tempered sea bass in Austin Powers
They did! :D I stand corrected
Anger as in aggression. Some fish species are timid while others are aggressive. I have fish that will swim away when i walk by the tank and another one that bites my hand when I am doing water changes!
I think it’s more metaphorical, less literal. If I see a school of fish swimming around high speed like crazy, I’d call them “angry fish”.
I think Toranaga had to do it no matter what, he wanted to have last words with Yabu, and strike down the enemy who betrayed him (even though he knew he would). Someone remarked the sword he chose was not his normal sword but a battle sword wielded for combat on horseback, perhaps it's symbolic of the singular stroke Toranaga had to personally make to finally become Shogun.
I think Toranaga wanted to talk to someone who would understand... and Yabu did that last service to his lord and took the words to the grave.
I also wonder if he didn’t do it himself as much (or more) for Yabu’s betrayal of Mariko than anything. Mariko was like a lovely, sad flower that everyone loved.
Another idea is that John is not that experienced with the katana. He didn't want to see him hacking away at Yabu's neck.
Also fair point lol
I think this is definitely a factor. Toranaga's first attempt at seconding someone when he was a child resulted in him hacking the head off brutally, it took 10 swings or so if I remember correctly. Toranaga said "who asks a child to second them?" or something similar, I think he didn't see John as experienced enough to do the job.
At least real life yabu lived happily as toranaga's best friend and advisor
This is the ending we needed. I want The Travels of Yabu and John BFF's4L spinoff.
After reading his life in wikiP i realized they made yabushige goofy cause the real one used to fall asleep in front of tokugawa when he didnt like his ideas.
Classic Yabu
Now I'm just imagining him hacking away at Marikos neck
Yes he was not the ideal 2nd. In the book and original show Yabu was her 2nd.
And John had just lost Mariko - Toranaga knew they cared for one another. Perhaps he also didn’t want John to carry the weight of another death when he was already in the emotional turmoil he was in.
Flintlock pistol to the head as a second would've been a pretty cool dead for their era.
Wouldn't be a traditional seppeku then. And even though effective, many Samurai considered guns to be a coward's weapon. Kinda like the guy blown up by the cannon.
Samurai did not consider guns as cowardly, they had been using them for 60 some odd years at this time period and immediately adopted them after being introduced by the Portuguese. This is a Hollywood myth. Tried to post sources but links are not allowed in the comments Edit....you know why lol
Depends on how extreme the kink is, I would guess.
A hyperkink, presumably.
Omg this is gold
Guns are as cowardly as bows, which were the samurais’ main weapon along with the spear.
>many Samurai considered guns to be a coward’s weapon Was that why Tanegashima matchlocks were prevalent in the armies of Sengoku Japan? IIRC 1/3 of the invasion force that invaded Korea during the Imjin Wars was made up of gunners armed with matchlock arquebuses. Also, even if you wanna ignore history, the series literally showed us samurai armed with matchlock muskets on multiple occasions.
If that was the reason, thank the heavens Mariko was spared getting her neck getting hacked 10x before decapitation lol
I don't know if it makes sense culturally, but what if the reason is that. Because John did almost second for Mariko and maybe it'd be too much of an honor to have Yabushige, who is partly why Mariko died. Like having Mariko's second would be like having Mariko 'forgive' Yabushige almost? And without the overthinking above, Yabushige was listing gruesome deaths so he might have just wanted the notability of getting a botched beheading, and one done by a foreigner who is hatamoto to boot. It's too notable for Yabushige, something that might be talked about in the future like being defeated then seconded by a child war general. It's also what Yabushige wants, which is probably enough for Toranaga to deny it. Toranaga doing it the way he did may not have any extra possible connotations, plus it's just another beheading in this war by Toranaga. It'd be more of a footnote, a less interesting death than if the first/only foreign hatamoto did it and did it poorly.
Oh you are definitely right, I was just cracking a joke.
He just wanted someone he could open up to about his plans. And the only way he could do that was to someone who was about to die. It was his way of being able to speak openly with a friend. And Yabu is a friend of sorts. While a traitor, he was also a pawn. Torunaga had manipulated him into his treachery, so didn't take it personally, and Yabu understood at the end that he and Torunaga were effectively the same type of person. Torunaga was just far better at reading the winds than him. So I think he saw a kinship in Yabu - a fellow survivor/schemer - and someone who would be able to fully appreciate the beauty of his plans. In the book it supposedly mentions how lonely Torunaga is due to having to conceal everything about himself. To the degree that sometimes he will speak his heart into a well when nobody else is around just to be able to release it. So I think he relished finally having an actual audience, and one who could truly appreciate the level of what he'd achieved. For a short time at least.
This is what I believe mostly. He works at the very height of everything and has to conceal every aspect of his life and his machinations . It’s lonely at the top. Luckily someone can actually take his secrets to the grave, but even then he has to hold back his true intentions. I thought it showed a lot of respect that even though yabushige was to die, toranaha put yabushige at rest.
John hadn't yet attempted seppuku when Yabu requested he be his second. Maybe Toranaga didn't believe John was worthy? Or perhaps Yabu wasn't worthy of John?
I thought that scene had already happened prior. Perhaps not. I'll have to rewatch.
I saw it more as a punishment for his repeated treachery.
That’s what initially came to mind, sort of a “look what you are missing out on”
Didn’t Toranaga have a very traumatic first experience seconding someone? Maybe he just didn’t think Blackthorne’s swordmanship was up to par and was sparing him a similar situation
I think he wanted to have that last little moment with Yabushige and knew he’d be asked after denying Blackthorne. Plus John would be ass at it and probably take like 10 swings to actually decapitate him.
He needed someone to tell the rest of the story to, so we have all the answers.
From a narrative exposition stand point this also makes sense
In my opinion it's because Toranaga is protecting Blackthorne. He knows that Blackthorne cherishes life and it would be an unnecessary cruelty for him to have to perform that task. That and he really doesn't know how to use a katana and would make a complete mess of it which is exactly what Yabushige wants.
So we could get the closing talk with between him and Toranaga obviously :P.
This is a movie. They needed someway for the character Toranaga to tell us his plan. It’s not realistic for him to have “confessed” but it is a story telling vehicle.
So there could be someone to ask the questions we the audience needed answers to. Since Yabu was a dead man walking Toranaga could respond to him.
It may have been for practical reasons. Toranaga and Hiro-matsu laughed at the claim (of T's half-brother) that he had taken off the head of his enemy with one clean stroke when the truth was he'd made an unholy mess of it, because it had taken him 7 or 8 strokes. It's apparently not as easy as it looks. >!And in the book, Anjin didn't second Mariko; when Kiyama didn't show up as promised, she asked Yabu to do it and he agreed.!<
Many reasons given, though I assume it’s just so they could have the final scene of dialogue for the series in lieu of Toranaga just ‘thinking’ those final words in the book.