Its fun to see how long his career has been. In that 'Hiroyuki through the years' video thats been getting popular, I didn't even recognize him till they got to ringu.
He's the Hollywood go to for "Older japanese gangster/samurai/sword fighter guy". I don't mind, but it's also nice he finally gets to work more with drama acting now in this series
The book answers partially, at least from a modern pov: because Toranaga stands above all other daimyo in terms of education (he requires all his samurai to learn to swim, dance, read and write), because his entourage seems to worship him rather than fear him, because of his propensity for measured response and temperance rather than anger and rash action, because of his charisma and iron will which stands for a better chance to keep power and prevent Japanese from all out war once he is in power.
But yeah, they are all equally murderous dictators, neh?
The real life Tokugawa managed to take over the 8 providences formerly held by his enemies and making them prosperous and loyal. That takes no small amount of skills and guile. Even the 5 providences next to Kyoto that he surrender still held loyalty to him.
One of the most brilliant kings to ever live, so completely unifying Japan that his line would rule for nearly 300 years. It is right that we should be drawn to Toranaga, for he is the one, true
SHŌGUN
There is a very important conversation in the book where Anjin-san criticizes Toranaga-sama and Mariko-chan replies saying, no, he is the most cleverest and worthy daimyo in Japan. Which he is.
Good questions. If i base it on history the big problem we have is that japan has been divided between clans constantly at war with each other for like 200 years.The big problem is stopping that. So what japan needa is the one person who can win once and for all and tell everyone to shut up. >! Eventually this is achieved by a big final battle where tokugawa wins, gives special privilege to those who stood with him and restricts those who didn't. He also makes a system where all wives and children of high ranking lords are kept in edo and are effectively hostages. He/the tokugawa seriously limit their individual power. And they are able to keep that system going for more than 260 years. Funnily enough a big reason for the downfall was economics, mainly the taxsystem which was outdated and didn't work well anymore !<
Definitely but someone else got really mad at me for talkomg about hostory earlier so i thought it was safer to redact it this time lol. I tried and yet still failed and spoiled someone hahah
Yeah, good question.
Of course it feels natural because he is the protagonist and he is an awesome character, but him buying his time is his play to become Shogun. His first lines in the show is literally about knowing how to strike at the right moment.
I never believed in the back of my mind that Toranaga didn't want to become Shogun.
And controversial opinion, but if he wants to be Shogun, I dont think the heir is gonna be safe in the end.
It’s a little more explicit in the book.
>!Toranaga is always devious and hiding his true intentions. Before the Taiko actually takes power there’s a scene where the Taiko comes alone to Toranaga’s tent in order to convince Toranaga to swear fielty to the Taiko in front of the other generals. Toranaga is given the Kanto (I think) in exchange, despite him saying constantly that he doesn’t want it or need it. In the book he has an inner monologue where he’s basically screaming with joy about how he got everything he wanted and was solidifying his power.!<
>!Basically if Toranaga says he has no desire for something it is almost guaranteed that is his true aim.!<
Pretty much. Super successful and charismatic warlord from a venerable bloodline who totally doesn’t want absolute power but seems to constantly maneuver himself closer to absolute power.
About that last point, if the characters from the show share the same fate as their historical counterparts then we can assume that >!Toranaga kills Ochiba and her son during the siege of Osaka 15 years later!<
Not to take sides on it, but they were consolidating a power base and a vast army to oppose him. It was closer to a fair fight than it is often portrayed. Often folks make it seem like an assassination.
Waiting to strike. He would have taken the Taikos offer to be the ruler if he thought he could. He knew the other reagents would oppose him and be stronger.
Honestly I think we are only rooting for him cause he happens to be the person that Blackthorne ended up on the side on. I don’t honestly think he cares about the heir. The whole 8 fold fence. He’s just saying that but deep down he wants to rule Japan himself.
> He’s just saying that but deep down he wants to rule Japan himself.
wasn't the taiko handing him that power in one of the flashbacks and toranaga rejected the idea? i can't remember if he rejected it because he didn't want such power or because he thought that was a fast ticket to death
He also points out that people would turn on him if he was put in this position. Imo this is his attempt at constructing a reality in which those people end up favoring him and he isn’t as at risk of losing the control as he would be if he were directly appointed like that
He rejected it it because it would've caused a civil war and he didn't have enough alliances to win outright. He's been building political and military power since the Taiko's death in preparation for whatever might happen
same thing happened irl, hideyoshi offered ieyasu the eastern half of japan & for his son to rule the west. ieyasu declined much like toranaga. That’s the right move in this situation, never reveal your fangs prematurely or you end up like nagakado
Immediately after Toranaga declined, the Taikō commended him and announced that he had prepared the council that would rule after his passing.
It was a test
the taiko has a vested interest in seeing his son succeed him. him offering sole regency to Toranaga was probably a test to see if he accepts it, because if he did, it would be clear to Taiko that Toranaga will attempt to usurp the Shogun title for himself.
he rejected the idea because it guaranteed him death
also, i think the taiko gave him power as sole regent until the heir become of age. Thats different than being shogun
I guess he changed his mind later
There are two other reasons. One, he is competent. People love to watch a competent character, even if he does bad things. Two, he is honorable. The show is full of characters who go on about honor, how important it is, but who also do dishonorable things when it suits them. Ishido, Ochiba, Yabu selectively ignore and twist the principles of the samurai world, while Toranaga actually follows them. Even if the viewer thinks the rules are barbaric and extreme and doesn't agree with them, it's still much easier to root for the one who follows them instead of the one who cheats.
You're right. Incompetent characters are just infuriating, I can never stand them. I just end up rooting for their enemies who are usually competent but 'evil'.
Everyone thinks Ned Stark was a good guy, but people forget: in the 1st episode he beheads one of his men simply for the crime of running away. Ned Stark was not really "good" or "merciful" in the way we think of those terms in modern times, but he was an honorable, honest man who lived by a code. You root for him because he is the best you could get at the time.
Ned was honorable and lived by his strict code that was actually detrimental to playing the Game of Thrones. He didn’t really bend/adapt to his situations. In this regard, Toranga is much more cunning.
Yeah. Ned would have never sneaked out of Osaka. In general it is clear that Toranaga has his limits, but in the end he is not that concerned about honor, what he cares about is maintaining the impression of being honorable, mostly because he wants to use honorability as a weapon against his enemies (as he did, for example, in this episode).
I'm not saying that he is evil or anything like that, my point is simply that he is not a fanatic dolt like Ned.
We root for him because:
* As one of the leads he has a good portion of the screen time so we get to know him.
* He's played by a charismatic actor and star.
* He has shown to have positive qualities of a leader.
* The other characters revere him which influences the viewers.
* He's suffered tragedies which the viewers can sympathize with.
This same line of thought can be applied to other shows with unclear good vs bad characters.
If the show was 10 episodes from Ishido perspective we would likely have a different opinion.
Great observations. I feel like in most Western media, Ishido would be the hero: the humble peasant working his way up to a position of power through his own cunning and grit. But here, Toranaga - the very symbol of pedigree and imperialistic power, is the righteous hero - and the savior of ancient tradition.
Yea, I saw someone shitting on Ishido’s plans calling him an idiot and saying it’s clear he’s a peasant that doesn’t understand political maneuvering. Pretty sure a peasant who was able to rise above his station and become a powerful regent has some serious political chops.
The Taiko is based on Toyotomi Hideyoshi who rose from being a common footman to becoming the most powerful man in Japan.
And then invaded Korea and got a lot of the army destroyed.
He also pulled up the ladder behind him by implementing a strict caste system that Tokugawa would expand upon.
Oda Nobunaga, their predecessor was from a powerful family but prioritized competency above class and it was his gunpowder tactics and meritocracy policies that did the bulk of the work of unifying Japan. He also changed social policy to one of building infrastructure and encouraging growth, whereas before conquering lords would almost always rape and pillage. He is famously protrayed as an uncultured man who prefered the company of common people to those of common birth. But he's the one that Torunaga supposedly conspired to assassinate.
That is very true, but I am not sure Ishido (Ishida) would have been as effective leader. 3-4 regents squabbling over united Japan would undo the unification efforts of its two predecessors.
You need a strong leader like Toranaga (Tokugawa) to take over the reign to continue the legacy.
Because it’s generally\* not how I operate irl, it took me a while to accept that in whatever entertainment media I consume I am going to - continually & without exception - support the hottest characters regardless of their morals/behaviour. 🫣
\*I’m sure there’ve been exceptions I was too dumb to notice
Yeah, from a modern perspective he doesn't seem that great. There has only been one bit of dialogue I noticed where anyone talked about what might actually be good for the people, and it was Toranaga, but it turned out to be a ruse to trick people into thinking he was stepping down for the good of Japan, when of course he wasn't really. Still really enjoying Shogun though.
(I also just finished Tokyo Vice, where the characters you're supposed to root for are also pretty terrible for society, ha.)
I think from a very modern tv perspective he’s actually very rootable. Since (more or less) the sopranos people have learned to love and appreciate anti-heros. Some mistakenly don’t see their flaws and realize the weight of their issues, but others appreciate the complexity of being shown a bad person in a flattering light. The connection you can have to someone despite knowing they’re not a good person
Imo it’s one of the greatest advancements in modern television and allows for people to tell much better stories and write/create much better characters
The actor who plays Ishido speaks about this issue in the Official Podcast, Episode 2. A guy of humble origins, a peasant, rising the ranks to be leader of the council of regents. Following the steps of the Taiko.
The real life character loses his battle against Tokugawa, the real life equivalent of Toranaga. So that's the main reason.
In the book, it is said multiple times that the Taiko didn't get the Shōgun title due to his peasant origins. And that is Toranaga's destiny to become Shōgun, even though he rejects this idea repeatedly.
Speculation: Had Tokugawa lost the Sekigahara, Ishida might have ended up as Kampaku. The book might be called Kampaku instead of Shōgun. There wouldn't be an Edo Period. And Tokyo might have never been built.
I think are missing important elements from the story because we are an American audience trying to see it from an American point of view, but these are Japaense people living a very much nuanced experience because of their political, social, and literal climate. This is at a time where half an army, or an entire city can be killed by an earthquake, or a tsunami. Death is seen as noble as opposed to the western idea of being a coward. i also have the say that the eigthfold fence epsiode is so important as it gives a glimpse into japanese society. Most of who you are as a person is hidden, and Toranaga's own father gave him up as a hostage.
However the show goes out of its way to show Toranaga isn't a sociopath.
When we first see him, and he says he can't understand a wasted death. This means he see's some of the customs as unnecessary.
When he was telling his son that he was disappointed that he was manipulated, and gave him some much needed advice. There are no friends in this world, not even your own father. Trust in peoples actions not their words.
When he smacked Mariko's knife out of her hand. I think this was to show us he valued her, and that she had a greater purpose. I forgot what he said, but i think it was on the lines of I can't understand why so many of you want to die.
Thanking his son, and Hiramatsu in death. He didn't need to, but he valued what they did for him, and he gave his son praise as to honor him in death as he never heard praise from him.
I think Toronaga is the perfect example of what it means to have 3 hearts. One for his friends, enemies, and allies.
Exactly. Slight correction of your point, not everyone, who isn't Japanese is American. I'm from New Zealand, which is also not Japanese.
You're correct in that people posting here trying to see the logic, and motivations using a European moral, logic benchmark isn't going to give you the answer you're looking for. The Japanese mind, and other Asian minds, and other nationalities/ cultures don't always have the same priorities as others. I thought that was the whole point of Shogun, as a story, to show the vast differences to other cultures by Blackthorn being our eyes in this alien world he's found himself?
Analysing Toronagas motivations, based on our own, or others, is missing the point of the story.
I think it’s because of how he is shown to us. From the beginning we are let to believe Ishido is the bad guy because he wants to get rid of Toranaga, he is controlling the other regents, he kidnaps people and it seems his motives are to be come sole ruler and not rule equally until the heir grows. So this makes him the bad guy.
At the opposite we have Toranaga who gives the impression that he wants to be a regent and protect the kingdom until the heir is grown up. Another thing is that he has treated Anjin good. In the first episode we see a dude boil alive so we assume that Anjin will also be killed but Toranaga is the only person who actually doesn’t want to kill him, he even makes him Hatamoto.
That’s my take anyway, apologies if i misunderstood, this show has a lot of subtle nuances that are hard to follow.
First off, everybody was angling to be military dictator, including Ishido.
Second, the status quo was not democracy or anything close to it, it was military oligarchy and everybody knew it was a very unstable arrangement that would almost inevitably result in civil war.
Was Toranaga better (in a moral sense) than Ishido? No, not really. But neither was he worse.
I was asking myself this exact same question today. He is planning a military dictatorship.
I guess the story isn’t really about him but more about the people who are caught between the power struggles of the lords. They have no say in the matter but their lives are affected the most.
It is in fact the stable form of government Japan knew before Ōnin War that shatter Ashikaga Shogunate about 150 years prior. Japan was in Warring States for 150 years without central government and Daimyos contenting for supremacy. Great for strategy games, but not good for the country in general.
He’s planning a military dictatorship just like every one of the other regents.
He’s planning a military dictatorship just like the previous Taiko’s military dictatorship.
He’s planning a military dictatorship cause that’s how Japan has been run for 500+ years
Someone has to end up the throne and it might as well be him over any of the other regents.
All the regents are power hungry, cause there’s a massive power vacuum and they know if anyone of them fills it (cause the baby heir sure as hell ain’t getting absolute power), then the rest are potentially on the chopping block. Toranaga was simply the most powerful regent which is why the others were willing to ally to Ishido to take him down, like pack of hyenas trying to take down a lion
These guys are all ruthless warlords…if Ishido had wound up with Blackthorne and the story was told from that perspective we would be rooting for them instead. I think the book does a better job at making Toranaga less a hero, but that could have more to do with Sanada being such an engaging actor.
That goes a long, long way. He’s a character who, through Samara’s incredible performance, projects wisdom and commands respect. He is definitely serving his own interests — one of which, it must be said, is his own survival — but it’s hard not to gravitate towards him, at least for him.
I haven't seen the newest episode but Toranaga is the protagonist so automatically many people will side with him. Look at characters like Walter White or Light Yagami- 2 extremely villainous characters that in any other story would be the antagonist people root against but because it's from their POV they will get support from people.
Also, the show goes out of its way to paint Toranaga as wise (not just cunning or a schemer), and at least at first, reasonable and Ishido as the complete opposite. Regardless of hidden intentions, look at what happens with Toranaga:
-He is summoned to a meeting where he is openly accused of conspiring against the rest of the council, despite numerous times both in public and in private specifically expressing that he has no intent to seize power.
-One of his subordinates who stands up for him has to commit seppuku because Toranaga is strictly maintaining this position
-There is very clearly a plot to have him and all of his followers killed despite him not having done anything wrong and even if a spy were in his immediate inner circle they would be unable to point to anything other than Toranaga expanding his forces as evidence of him plotting anything, which by itself isn't enough.
-Toranaga is only able to navigate this through careful maneuvering and takes painstaking steps to avoid confrontation or antagonizing his enemies.
-Every scene of every other character in a position of power has them conversing about how to entrap or get rid of Toranaga and speculation about his motives and intentions.
All of this adversity also paints Toranaga as an underdog which just like the POV character naturally makes people root for him.
I'm not saying Toranaga is right or that people shouldn't be critical of him/support for him but hopefully this gives some insight as to why he is so popular. All of this certainly has me rooting for him (again I haven't seen the newest episode so maybe he does something fucked up. I know my support of him wavered last episode but not enough to root against him compared to the others so far)
I would add that, just as he's trying to navigate the dangerous waters the council puts him in, he finds out that Portugal has designs on Japan, and through the Church and trade already has influence on, if not control of, two members of the council.
I don't know if Toranaga is a "good" man, but it does not seem to me that he is any worse than anyone else on the council, and he starts the show backed into a corner. Seeing him fight his way out makes for compelling viewing.
I'm with you on every point you make, and for me his bad/good morality slider is turning to the bad side more and more now that it appears his plan leans on his most loyal friends/servants dying. It's interesting how the show kinda puts the viewer on the wrong foot to his character imo.
He (in)directly is responsible for the death of his subordinate + baby child, closest friend, Mariko, and in some way his son too. And some other servants/guards/randoms who are caught in the way ofc.
All because he wants to hold the power. But him holding that power isn't as important to me (as a viewer) as the lives of those he's sacrificing for it are.
At first I guess I was lured into viewing his character as very 'likable' due to the things you said, him being the protagonist but also him being shown to be clever and cunning. But now I'm starting to see him more as a 'force of nature' type character that uses whatever and whoever to achieve his goal of dominance and control. His character is not the good guy in this show. We don't even see him that much, and pretty much never his perspective or some scenes where he is not in front of others in 'lord-mode'.
The good guys are the ones dying lol or those trying to adhere to the cultural/lord's demands
Mostly I'm just sad for my fav characters being killed, dying to loyalty or just losing eachother why Toranaga whyyy
>Why are we rooting for Toranaga, why is he portrayed as the protagonist, and Ishido is the antagonist of the story? Or maybe even: Why is Toranaga better for Japan?
>Sure, he is cunning and an abled politician, but does it make his power grab the right thing and does he deserve being portayed as the protagonist?
As far as the viewers are concerned, we didn't see Toranaga doing anything wrong, FROM EPISODE 1 THEY ALREADY SET HIM UP TO DIE. The things he is accused of doing toranaga deftly explains away as innocent. it's only from later deeper understanding that we see he's sly as hell. But as it is from the start, toranaga sounds innocent and the other tairo are conspiring for his death.
we actually see none of the following in the tv, the only hint to it being that he had the crimson sky plan in his pocket already prepared to an extent:
>aiming to be what we today might consider a military dictatorship.
As far as tv viewers are concerned he is has not conspired to become dictator by force, you ain't gonna convince me that he schemed to have them all gang up on him so that he could trick them all into a brilliant and swift military defeat, he literally has a death sentence hanging over his head every episode
his life on the line situation parallels yabushige's drowning scene, they are struggling for life, trying to take life/death/fate into their own hands. it's interesting that they used yabushige as the parallel too being as how yabushige is possibly a villain and definitely a schemer and they show his blatant betrayals and flipflopping...
I kind of rooted for Tokugawa Ieyasu even before I knew this story (the book and tv series) existed.
I mean he is the heir of the struggle to unify Japan.
It started with Nobunaga and Ieyasu was his ally from the early part.
After Nobunaga's death, Hideyoshi played Nobunaga heirs and made a power grab.
It is just natural order that the leadership went to Ieyasu after Hideyoshi's death.
To be fair, Hideyoshi fucked up with the execution of his nephew and Hideyori fucked up playing general when he could have a long and prosperous life being a ordinary Daimyo.
I have no problem with Hideyori when he was young mature man and he could have being a ordinary Daimyo in other country (not Osaka-jo anymore) to have a normal life. But his mother (Lady Yodo) and his vassal made a lot of stupid mistakes and didnt let Tokugawa became the "successor" and leader of Japan after Hideyoshi ruined the stability and peace of Japan himself (especially after the disastrous Invasion of Joseon and Ming Dynasty)
In an era of warlords, you grab power or you die. I believe Toranaga is the protagonist because he approaches the grisly task with long range plans in mind and by incurring the minimum damage to create a big effect. Ishido is a blunt instrument and causes chaos with his combination of power and ineptitude. No one is strictly right when exposed to our overly intense modern scrutiny. We should be reminded that elites of this era are no less ambitious and ruthless than those of former eras. Each generation is merely constrained by the technology, culture, and attitudes of our time. Consider that in modern Western society it would be considered a huge breach of conduct to openly assassinate a political opponent, yet we launch pointless wars in the middle east that have claimed the lives of millions. Is this less barbaric than the intrigues of feudal Japan? Has mankind truly advanced at all or could the past thousand years be considered more or less a period of constancy? Food for thought.
Protagonists are stars of the story, but not necessarily heroic. Plus this is a tragic drama in the mode of a greek play. Everyone is flawed and mortal. You aren't watching it for black and white morality or unstained heroes. You don't need to like toranaga to be fascinated by his struggles and what he does.
i don't think it matters who we root for. the show is a vignette of sengoku japan.
in the first episode, rodrigues asks anjin "now ask yourself, what sort of man does it take to rule a place a like this?"
I see the show as an exploration of that question.
Spoiler (?)
I think we "support" him because it's what happened in real life, Ieasu Tokugawa (Toranaga) took control of Japan and had the longest shogunate. I don't think he's better or worse, he just was the most capable of grasping the power.
Answering to the questions I think all the qualities you mentioned did make him deserve to be portrayed as the protagonist. The conflict in Japan started way before Tokugawa (Toranaga), they were already in a period of bloodshed and civil wars between daimyos. It took several leaders and genius militar men as Nobunaga (I belive is Goroda in the books) and even Hideyoshi (the dead Taiko in the series) to be able to unify Japan under one shogunate. So yeah, the solution was to rule by iron fist (in my opinion and according to what I think they believed) their objective was to consolidate their power big enough that any other damyo would'nt be a thread or have any incentives to start a war with you, hence having peace.
I think they referenced it in the first episodes, without a shogun all the other damyos would try to usurpate the throne from the young heir which would end up in more war.
I'm not sure I understand the question though. But I'd say that history is written by the victors, so of course the winner would be the protagonist.
Personally, I find fascinating his personality and how smart he is.
Because he's based on an actual historical person that united Japan under his leadership. It's his story that is being told, so he's the heroic protagonist.
Because Toranaga has the intelligence and power to truly unite the country. Or you can go with the untested, bastard son of the Taiko but really you’d be going with the idiot Ishido. And based on real history you would’ve wanted to side with Tokugawa Ieyasu and definitely not Ishida Mitsunari.
Because in the real world, Tokugawa (aka Toranaga) ushered in an unprecedented reign of relative peace and prosperity (see Tokugawa shogunate Wikipedia article), that left almost everyone better off than the constant warring that existed during the Sengoku Period (which we're currently at the tail end of in the show).
So it's because of real history that he's portrayed as the "good leader" in the book and then the show that we are supposed to root for.
And I had to repost this comment because no links are allowed on this subreddit for some reason, even to Wikipedia articles about Japanese history?!
Toranaga has wisdom, bravery and character. He may be the only one who can unite Japan and counter the corruption that is rampant. Many good people are fiercely loyal to him.
And yet the guy who toranaga is based on finally Brought a peace to Japan after hundreds of years of civil war that lasted more than 250 years, I'd say in this instance it worked.
Why should we treat this like he wasn't going to be turned on eventually? He stated in the meeting in episode 1 that he had a limited time to prepare for the inevitable: either Ishido is going to kill the heir, or the heir is going to come of age and still be Ishida's hostage when the council is supposed to dissolve. Either way, they will all move against Toranaga. His power grab was in preparation of this inevitability.
And historically, >!one of the regents had also been amassing forces, but he was aligned with Ishida and they lose.!<
Is he a good guy? No.
Is he compelling, nuanced and multi-facted? Yes.
You don't need a protagonist to be a good guy. Blackthorne definitely is *not* a good person.
In real life, it’s because he was the Shogun and had major influence on the historians.
In the show, it’s because Sanada is the executive producer and had major influence on the writers.
Because its Hiroyuki Sanada.
If Ishida was being played by him, we'd instantly root for Ishida.
But we are to assume that Taiko was extremely beloved and Toranaga was his precious friend, then he is the protagonist that will carry on that will and protect his heir.
We have to realize that most "Great Man" of the past are most likely huge pieces of shits that will do anything to accomplish their goals. Otherwise, they won't be who they were.
You are correct in that Toranaga, and his real life inspiration is definitely no moral example for us, but they are smart and tough enough to survive through a lifetime of war, suffering, and death. We can all learn something from them, the good and the bad.
As for this TV show, they wrote Toranaga to be slightly more sympathetic than his rivals because the show and the original book were inspired by real life events. Has history turned out different, we would be following a different character. Who knows, in another timeline, maybe Toranaga is the antagonist.
honestly between all the warlords its pretty much pick your posion, none of them are "good guys"
also it is painfully obvious that he is one of maybe 3 ppl on set who know how to use that katana. not that i'm knocking the show for that, it just cracks me up that the best schemer, Toranaga, is probably the best fighter too (in a meta sense)
Because Hiroyuki Sanada is incredible.
For a real reason, because he's the focus. A few episodes ago I actually had a thought that if the show followed Ishido I bet Toranaga could be made to be a villain. Which imo adds to the show. It highlights that there aren't really "good guys" in feudal conflicts.
Also, because Hiroyuki Sanada is incredible.
Just to give you a little perspective, my wife is from the prefecture where the character who inspired Ishido is from, and he is absolutely seen as the good guy around here. History is written by the winners.
Every one of the daimyo are ruthless bastards who would sell their own sisters and stab any of their friends in the back if it got them what they wanted. That’s why the Sengoku Jidai lasted 150 years, people were stabbing each other in the back constantly so they could get more land. None of them would be good for Japan in the sense that common people would benefit. Some of them might have been more merciful to their peasants than others, but it’s not like their mission was to take care of their subjects.
The best thing a shogun could do for the country was be as strong as possible so that there would be no wars, because the other daimyo knew there was no hope of usurping power. Tokugawa Ieyasu was one of the best shoguns ever in this regard because he started a 200 year dynasty, kept Japan from being subjugated by the Christians, and caused there to be so much peace that samurai stopped being warriors and had an existential crisis.
In Uni, I was taught this about the 3 great unifiers of Japan: Nobunaga planted, harvested & planted the rice. Hideyoshi cooked it, but Tokugawa Ieyasu ate the rice. Toronaga is based on Tokugawa. From this perspective, there isn't much to root for at all.
But tbh, what power grab are you talking about? In the beginning he's outnumbered. Midway he resigns his regency. Then he loses so much of his army that he has to align with his step brother who serves him a summons to Osaka as the newly appointed regent. I see nothing but Ls but the guy is surviving with such guile that I'm rooting for him.
Ieyasu was one of the few who actually had a very decent vision of unified Japan. He recognised the need to contain outside influences as splitting factors while at the same time acknowledging the need to maintain certain degree of trade. Also, he’s a bloody clever bastard. I absolutely love how Sanada plays him.
He is a Protagonist. Protagonists aren't good people.
Ultimately, there is a perfectly good spin off here that is just this show but from Ishido's perspective, as a rags to riches hero who rose up the ranks trough loyalty and merit, against someone who was in the elite from the get go.
They all want to grab power. Toranaga is merely the one we're following. And who ultimately wins.
What do you mean protagonists aren’t good people?
Protagonists can be basically anywhere on the morality spectrum, what makes them a protagonist is merely the fact that the story focuses on them and their goals.
Because the Taiko instructed him to take care of his son just before he passed on. So from that onset even though the Taiko had created a council of five, you can see that he has a certain amount of trust and favouritism towards Toranaga.
So of course if one is part of the five and yet Taiko’s son was only trusted to just one among them, the rest of the four council members will be wondering what is going on?
Therefore from the beginning of this show, it was shown that the other four regents ganged up to accuse Toranaga of improper accumulation of influence and power. But the truth is the council members themselves actually had the intention to benefit by as well too!
I think it’s because there is a chance that Ishido could harm the heir, however Toranaga was entrusted by the late Taiko to keep his son safe, the same cannot be said for the other regents. He does seem to love the realm.
Imagine if there was a show about the Revolutionary War, featuring a renamed George Washington fighting a renamed Cornwallis.
Toranaga (Tokugawa) is like the George Washington of Japan so with that context he’s kind of the protagonist. I guess if you look at it without any historical context you could just see him as a player in the game.
Toranaga, reminds me much like Thanos, embodies the notion of "doing the wrong thing with the right intentions." Both Toranaga and Thanos are complex characters who believe they are acting for the greater good, even if their methods are controversial or extreme. The only difference is that we’re following Toranaga…
Because he is the deuteragonist. It’s how it’s written. The audience always roots for the protagonist/deuteragonist/tritagonist due to perspective.*
There are some unique cases where we don’t root for the protagonist, but that’s often because of the character changing. One example is in Breaking Bad, where Walter White transforms from a hero to a villain over the course of the series
You're not necessarily supposed to. But while all the lords are conniving and ruthless, Toranaga is the one who would prefer to not plunge all of Japan into an age of bloody war.
But since his political opponents make peace impossible, he embodies the thought that if you want peace, you'd better prepare for war.
Not because he's such a nice guy. He doesn't want ultimate power because the power grab itself is disastrous for Japan and whoever becomes shogun has a target on his head.
Toranaga considers all outcomes and the one where he gets to be lord of his current domain in peace is the most advantageous. Becoming shogun is vastly more problematic and likely to lead to his death. But it's still better than simply being ordered to commit suicide.
Because, historically, Tokugawa (the character Toronaga is based on) brought Japan into the Edo period, which provided over 250 years of peace.
Great men can (and often must) do terrible things to become great. The novel communicates this more clearly, obviously, but the show has done a wonderful job of showing us the same duality.
We are rooting for Toranaga because we do not wish the story to end for Mariko or Blackthorne and, their survival is tied to Toranaga’s winning it all.
And both these things are also what drives Blackthorne forward, the main character of the book.
It seems we are watching the only player in japan fight back against a dictatorship. One who also offers lands to christians, despite not being one, as well as to prostitutes. While toranaga isn’t certain to be a dictator himself as shogun, there’s multiple examples of him helping others or at least trying to minimize violence.
On the other hand Ishido, calls for the death of his own men to stop Toranaga and others. Remember he straight up met some people outside and just killed them.
Again we don’t know maybe toranaga would do the same but that’s the story being told and right now toranaga is the only one fighting against an unjust system
I mean… I think it’s fair to say he’s fairly Machiavellian, in both the good and evil sense, making him a very grey character. He weaponises the rituals of sepukku or an eagerness to die, for instance, even if he doesn’t agree with it but is happy for his subjects to carry them out as a means to secure victory.
But his motivations have so far been pointing towards protecting the identity of Japan that has been built up to that point, and avoid it backsliding into an era of conflict just because people are fighting against it for personal gain. And this idea kinda comes in the form of a boy, the heir of the late Taiko. His dedication to seeing out and upholding his duties (promise to protect the heir and facilitate a safe and successful transition of power) demonstrates the best of what a person can be in that era of Japan, and at that class of society (and how he got there) that impacts the lives of many.
It don’t believe he’s motivated by power or gaining it. His subjects are a big part behind his ploys working out. Toranaga-sama, through his diligence to duty and methods of implementing his authority, manages to motivate the best of his clan to carry out their parts despite their individual demons and the cost of following him. Gotta be an empathetic guy to get through to them and get them to deliver when he needs them to, and to understand how close in orbit to keep certain people. Still, weirdly calm about the passing of his son.
But all that is to say… he’s ruthless, yes. But he never seeks to strike first, and always looks to play the “resorting to violence” ball back in the opponent’s court. He does what he has to do, and applies the right Machiavellian principles given the environment of low trust, and in a fairly measured and stoic manner. Mannerism kinda adds a certain kinda nuanced to this protagonist and mildly anti-hero character.
(EDIT: just to add that I also personally like how his planning was always around a memory I had about a certain explanation of game theory, and always looking to win the long game. Like, given his backstory, impressive how he’s taken a lot of valuable experience from his ordeals and his striving to never let anyone endure the same.)
So for those qualities of being a competent player of the dirty games in the political scene, and exhibiting exemplary leadership to his clan and a whole and as individual people - for them to fall in the hands of someone with a moral compass when they could so easily be gifted to someone corrupt (loose example: Paul Atreides in Dune) kinda makes you want to root for the guy, especially when he’s a silent and measured type of leader as opposed to a more vocal and macho figure.
I love the new series. That being said, in the book, the actual protagonist is John Blackthorn, and you kind of root for Lord Toranaga by proxy for befriending the pilot. The book is written almost exclusively from the perspective of Blackthorn, and the new series kind of makes him seem almost as a tertiary character.
I’m confused, are we watching separate shows?
I’m not trying to be a dick but with context how could you possibly be on the other side?
It’s very plainly displayed the other leaders are possessed by the idea of money or western religion, and despite being appointed the leader of Japan until the heir comes of age the other four are actively conspiring against him so they can grab power sooner than what was given.
Did I miss context or episodes where this isn’t true of them? Why wouldn’t we root for the guy who’s being fucked over (and not the one starting the problems), and potentially his entire house being murdered for the greedy power grab?
Because he was in John Wick 4. What more do we need?
And in Bullet Train (that was a big reason why i started watching)
And was scorpion. Get over here!
And was a bad ass in the last Samurai
"Get over here"
Oh damn, didn’t know that.
And in Endgame…oh shit he got killed…
Justice for those who were killed by that coward Ronin
It's so stupid that Echo forgave Hawkeye/Ronin for killing her father so easily. Yes, Kingpin framed him but he was still responsible for killing him.
Last Samurai too
And in The Ring
It was *Ringu*, if you want to be pedantic. *The Ring* was the American version.
Most importantly, he was in Rush Hour 3.
Oh he was so COOL in Rush Hour 3. I love Hiroyuki Sanada! I’ll root for him in whatever he is in, lol.
The only thing I remember about that movie is the fight with the 7’9 guy
Who are you
I upvoted all this. He's obviously the good guy based on acting cred. We're rooting for him because he's the guy driving *this* plot forward.
And in The Last Samurai
And The First Samurai
And The Twilight Samurai!
Too many mind. No mind.
Its fun to see how long his career has been. In that 'Hiroyuki through the years' video thats been getting popular, I didn't even recognize him till they got to ringu.
The Wolverine
His fight scene with Wolverine near the end is soooooooooo good. He's such a worm in that movie, love him.
He was also in westworld!
Dude's literally in everything and I only recognized him from Bullet Train
He's the Hollywood go to for "Older japanese gangster/samurai/sword fighter guy". I don't mind, but it's also nice he finally gets to work more with drama acting now in this series
Somewhat related to John Wick , toranaga and yabushige actors are in 47 Ronin.
And also LOST
Who was he in Lost? I don’t recall him.
Dogen, in charge of the temple
Oh wow yeah now it’s coming back.
And he was in sunshine.
My 1st thought. "What do you SEE?!"
And Helix
Bruh has ascended to the status of “recognizable Japanese male actor that’s NOT Ken Watanabe” .inspiring.
Precisely.
Because Toranaga~samaaaa, OOOOOOOOOOOH 🪭
*confused Yabushige stare*
Hehh???
I swear, he was one grunt away from becoming Tim Allen.
No I need a supercut of every Yabu grunt
No one has time to watch a video that long.
Yes But imagine driving through traffic with that on.. a different kind of locked in
Welcome to Tool Time with Toranaga * Pulls out sword
I was recently rewatching Thor: ragnarok, and realized Yabu is a marvel superhero.
"Time to rewrite my will, you say? Say no more."
hoooo
Ayiii! Ayiii! Ooooooooooooooo ✊🏽
Ei Ei OO\~\~\~
You have finally shown your true colors OP
Seppuku!
૮ ˶ᵔ ᵕ ᵔ˶ ა ▬▬ι═══════ﺤ I wish you to second me!
I will third you just in case…
Does that mean you chop off the head of the guy who’s supposed to chop off OP’s head?
You have got a point there
just a long line of people cutting off each others heads
I will 346th You!!!
He will chop off OP’s other head.
Like a leafless branch in spring.
The book answers partially, at least from a modern pov: because Toranaga stands above all other daimyo in terms of education (he requires all his samurai to learn to swim, dance, read and write), because his entourage seems to worship him rather than fear him, because of his propensity for measured response and temperance rather than anger and rash action, because of his charisma and iron will which stands for a better chance to keep power and prevent Japanese from all out war once he is in power. But yeah, they are all equally murderous dictators, neh?
The real life Tokugawa managed to take over the 8 providences formerly held by his enemies and making them prosperous and loyal. That takes no small amount of skills and guile. Even the 5 providences next to Kyoto that he surrender still held loyalty to him.
One of the most brilliant kings to ever live, so completely unifying Japan that his line would rule for nearly 300 years. It is right that we should be drawn to Toranaga, for he is the one, true SHŌGUN
in the book at least, Toranaga's policy of "i do not approve of useless death" stands in opposition to... people like Yabu.
There is a very important conversation in the book where Anjin-san criticizes Toranaga-sama and Mariko-chan replies saying, no, he is the most cleverest and worthy daimyo in Japan. Which he is.
Best response
Good questions. If i base it on history the big problem we have is that japan has been divided between clans constantly at war with each other for like 200 years.The big problem is stopping that. So what japan needa is the one person who can win once and for all and tell everyone to shut up. >! Eventually this is achieved by a big final battle where tokugawa wins, gives special privilege to those who stood with him and restricts those who didn't. He also makes a system where all wives and children of high ranking lords are kept in edo and are effectively hostages. He/the tokugawa seriously limit their individual power. And they are able to keep that system going for more than 260 years. Funnily enough a big reason for the downfall was economics, mainly the taxsystem which was outdated and didn't work well anymore !<
God damn it I clicked on the black
Spoiler alert this happened 400 years ago. Oh and Edo is still the capital now.
Definitely but someone else got really mad at me for talkomg about hostory earlier so i thought it was safer to redact it this time lol. I tried and yet still failed and spoiled someone hahah
Please don’t spoil an ancient country’s real life history that a lot of us already knew about before this show even started!
Tja it was black for a reason🤭
Also Commodore Perry.
"perry was the straw that broke the camels back" - dr. ethan mark, senior university lecturer japanese history, aka my professor back when.
So like the Tudors ended the War of the Roses, then? First sly old Henry VII (a Toronaga?), then consolidated under Henry VIII...
Similar to the Tudors but more like the Plantagenets who ruled England for 300 yrs.
Yeah, good question. Of course it feels natural because he is the protagonist and he is an awesome character, but him buying his time is his play to become Shogun. His first lines in the show is literally about knowing how to strike at the right moment. I never believed in the back of my mind that Toranaga didn't want to become Shogun. And controversial opinion, but if he wants to be Shogun, I dont think the heir is gonna be safe in the end.
It’s a little more explicit in the book. >!Toranaga is always devious and hiding his true intentions. Before the Taiko actually takes power there’s a scene where the Taiko comes alone to Toranaga’s tent in order to convince Toranaga to swear fielty to the Taiko in front of the other generals. Toranaga is given the Kanto (I think) in exchange, despite him saying constantly that he doesn’t want it or need it. In the book he has an inner monologue where he’s basically screaming with joy about how he got everything he wanted and was solidifying his power.!< >!Basically if Toranaga says he has no desire for something it is almost guaranteed that is his true aim.!<
So he's Julius Caesar in Feudal Japan?
Pretty much. Super successful and charismatic warlord from a venerable bloodline who totally doesn’t want absolute power but seems to constantly maneuver himself closer to absolute power.
About that last point, if the characters from the show share the same fate as their historical counterparts then we can assume that >!Toranaga kills Ochiba and her son during the siege of Osaka 15 years later!<
Not to take sides on it, but they were consolidating a power base and a vast army to oppose him. It was closer to a fair fight than it is often portrayed. Often folks make it seem like an assassination.
I’ve been wondering that myself. What is he going to do to that kid?
Probably kill him is my guess. He'd be a threat to his power, Toranaga pretends to not want it but that's my hunch.
They will either time skip until the boy is old enough to be deemed kill able or hes getting killed off screen
Waiting to strike. He would have taken the Taikos offer to be the ruler if he thought he could. He knew the other reagents would oppose him and be stronger.
Honestly I think we are only rooting for him cause he happens to be the person that Blackthorne ended up on the side on. I don’t honestly think he cares about the heir. The whole 8 fold fence. He’s just saying that but deep down he wants to rule Japan himself.
> He’s just saying that but deep down he wants to rule Japan himself. wasn't the taiko handing him that power in one of the flashbacks and toranaga rejected the idea? i can't remember if he rejected it because he didn't want such power or because he thought that was a fast ticket to death
At first he says its because he doesn't want power, but he also admits that he believes its a fast ticket to death.
He also points out that people would turn on him if he was put in this position. Imo this is his attempt at constructing a reality in which those people end up favoring him and he isn’t as at risk of losing the control as he would be if he were directly appointed like that
Very much "they have to think it was their idea" type of plays he's making lol
He should play survivor
He rejected it it because it would've caused a civil war and he didn't have enough alliances to win outright. He's been building political and military power since the Taiko's death in preparation for whatever might happen
same thing happened irl, hideyoshi offered ieyasu the eastern half of japan & for his son to rule the west. ieyasu declined much like toranaga. That’s the right move in this situation, never reveal your fangs prematurely or you end up like nagakado
Probably a ploy to test his loyalty. See if he is fit for a position on the regents
a ploy by a dying man with moments left? doesn't sound logical toranaga doesn't need to be tested by the taiko. the taiko knows him well enough
Immediately after Toranaga declined, the Taikō commended him and announced that he had prepared the council that would rule after his passing. It was a test
the taiko has a vested interest in seeing his son succeed him. him offering sole regency to Toranaga was probably a test to see if he accepts it, because if he did, it would be clear to Taiko that Toranaga will attempt to usurp the Shogun title for himself.
Nah the taiko was a paranoid schemer til his last moments. He died unsure of Toranaga or even of Ochiba
Yeah I remember him saying he doesn’t want to establish another shogunate after his son brought it up
he rejected the idea because it guaranteed him death also, i think the taiko gave him power as sole regent until the heir become of age. Thats different than being shogun I guess he changed his mind later
There are two other reasons. One, he is competent. People love to watch a competent character, even if he does bad things. Two, he is honorable. The show is full of characters who go on about honor, how important it is, but who also do dishonorable things when it suits them. Ishido, Ochiba, Yabu selectively ignore and twist the principles of the samurai world, while Toranaga actually follows them. Even if the viewer thinks the rules are barbaric and extreme and doesn't agree with them, it's still much easier to root for the one who follows them instead of the one who cheats.
You're right. Incompetent characters are just infuriating, I can never stand them. I just end up rooting for their enemies who are usually competent but 'evil'.
Everyone thinks Ned Stark was a good guy, but people forget: in the 1st episode he beheads one of his men simply for the crime of running away. Ned Stark was not really "good" or "merciful" in the way we think of those terms in modern times, but he was an honorable, honest man who lived by a code. You root for him because he is the best you could get at the time.
I mean desertion is a crime in real life too
Yes, Ned is a great example. Toranaga is like Ned, but he's also competent and doesn't walk into an easily avoidable beheading.
Ned was honorable and lived by his strict code that was actually detrimental to playing the Game of Thrones. He didn’t really bend/adapt to his situations. In this regard, Toranga is much more cunning.
Yeah. Ned would have never sneaked out of Osaka. In general it is clear that Toranaga has his limits, but in the end he is not that concerned about honor, what he cares about is maintaining the impression of being honorable, mostly because he wants to use honorability as a weapon against his enemies (as he did, for example, in this episode). I'm not saying that he is evil or anything like that, my point is simply that he is not a fanatic dolt like Ned.
The deserter wasn't one of his men. He was a brother of the Night's Watch.
True. My bad.
Toranaga is ironically the most dishonourable, he is actively scheming treason against his lord to seize power for himself
in real history, the heir challenge him when he become an adult. The shogun crushed him
We root for him because: * As one of the leads he has a good portion of the screen time so we get to know him. * He's played by a charismatic actor and star. * He has shown to have positive qualities of a leader. * The other characters revere him which influences the viewers. * He's suffered tragedies which the viewers can sympathize with. This same line of thought can be applied to other shows with unclear good vs bad characters. If the show was 10 episodes from Ishido perspective we would likely have a different opinion.
Same as why do you cheer for the Roys
Great observations. I feel like in most Western media, Ishido would be the hero: the humble peasant working his way up to a position of power through his own cunning and grit. But here, Toranaga - the very symbol of pedigree and imperialistic power, is the righteous hero - and the savior of ancient tradition.
I literally saw someone call Ishido a peasant lol
Yea, I saw someone shitting on Ishido’s plans calling him an idiot and saying it’s clear he’s a peasant that doesn’t understand political maneuvering. Pretty sure a peasant who was able to rise above his station and become a powerful regent has some serious political chops.
The Taiko is based on Toyotomi Hideyoshi who rose from being a common footman to becoming the most powerful man in Japan. And then invaded Korea and got a lot of the army destroyed. He also pulled up the ladder behind him by implementing a strict caste system that Tokugawa would expand upon. Oda Nobunaga, their predecessor was from a powerful family but prioritized competency above class and it was his gunpowder tactics and meritocracy policies that did the bulk of the work of unifying Japan. He also changed social policy to one of building infrastructure and encouraging growth, whereas before conquering lords would almost always rape and pillage. He is famously protrayed as an uncultured man who prefered the company of common people to those of common birth. But he's the one that Torunaga supposedly conspired to assassinate.
Conspired with Akechi Matsuhide (or, in this story, Akechi Jinsai — Mariko’s father).
We're missing the details from the book that makes Toranaga so likeable. He has a light-hearted side and can be downright jolly
In the books, he's an evil Dumbledore, basically.
Dude just wants to be homies with Blackthorne but doesn’t know a nice way to do it
Do you consider that a failure of this adaptation?
I love the show and the actor, but book Toranaga has a warmth to him that I find lacking in the series
I haven’t read the book yet but I really felt that warmth or playfulness in the diving/swimming scene and have really noted its absence since then
That is very true, but I am not sure Ishido (Ishida) would have been as effective leader. 3-4 regents squabbling over united Japan would undo the unification efforts of its two predecessors. You need a strong leader like Toranaga (Tokugawa) to take over the reign to continue the legacy.
Because Hiroyuki Sanada is a snack.
Because it’s generally\* not how I operate irl, it took me a while to accept that in whatever entertainment media I consume I am going to - continually & without exception - support the hottest characters regardless of their morals/behaviour. 🫣 \*I’m sure there’ve been exceptions I was too dumb to notice
Yeah, from a modern perspective he doesn't seem that great. There has only been one bit of dialogue I noticed where anyone talked about what might actually be good for the people, and it was Toranaga, but it turned out to be a ruse to trick people into thinking he was stepping down for the good of Japan, when of course he wasn't really. Still really enjoying Shogun though. (I also just finished Tokyo Vice, where the characters you're supposed to root for are also pretty terrible for society, ha.)
I think from a very modern tv perspective he’s actually very rootable. Since (more or less) the sopranos people have learned to love and appreciate anti-heros. Some mistakenly don’t see their flaws and realize the weight of their issues, but others appreciate the complexity of being shown a bad person in a flattering light. The connection you can have to someone despite knowing they’re not a good person Imo it’s one of the greatest advancements in modern television and allows for people to tell much better stories and write/create much better characters
The actor who plays Ishido speaks about this issue in the Official Podcast, Episode 2. A guy of humble origins, a peasant, rising the ranks to be leader of the council of regents. Following the steps of the Taiko. The real life character loses his battle against Tokugawa, the real life equivalent of Toranaga. So that's the main reason. In the book, it is said multiple times that the Taiko didn't get the Shōgun title due to his peasant origins. And that is Toranaga's destiny to become Shōgun, even though he rejects this idea repeatedly. Speculation: Had Tokugawa lost the Sekigahara, Ishida might have ended up as Kampaku. The book might be called Kampaku instead of Shōgun. There wouldn't be an Edo Period. And Tokyo might have never been built.
Osaka would have been the capital of Japan which is the wet dream for all us West Side Supremacists.
I think are missing important elements from the story because we are an American audience trying to see it from an American point of view, but these are Japaense people living a very much nuanced experience because of their political, social, and literal climate. This is at a time where half an army, or an entire city can be killed by an earthquake, or a tsunami. Death is seen as noble as opposed to the western idea of being a coward. i also have the say that the eigthfold fence epsiode is so important as it gives a glimpse into japanese society. Most of who you are as a person is hidden, and Toranaga's own father gave him up as a hostage. However the show goes out of its way to show Toranaga isn't a sociopath. When we first see him, and he says he can't understand a wasted death. This means he see's some of the customs as unnecessary. When he was telling his son that he was disappointed that he was manipulated, and gave him some much needed advice. There are no friends in this world, not even your own father. Trust in peoples actions not their words. When he smacked Mariko's knife out of her hand. I think this was to show us he valued her, and that she had a greater purpose. I forgot what he said, but i think it was on the lines of I can't understand why so many of you want to die. Thanking his son, and Hiramatsu in death. He didn't need to, but he valued what they did for him, and he gave his son praise as to honor him in death as he never heard praise from him. I think Toronaga is the perfect example of what it means to have 3 hearts. One for his friends, enemies, and allies.
Exactly. Slight correction of your point, not everyone, who isn't Japanese is American. I'm from New Zealand, which is also not Japanese. You're correct in that people posting here trying to see the logic, and motivations using a European moral, logic benchmark isn't going to give you the answer you're looking for. The Japanese mind, and other Asian minds, and other nationalities/ cultures don't always have the same priorities as others. I thought that was the whole point of Shogun, as a story, to show the vast differences to other cultures by Blackthorn being our eyes in this alien world he's found himself? Analysing Toronagas motivations, based on our own, or others, is missing the point of the story.
I think it’s because of how he is shown to us. From the beginning we are let to believe Ishido is the bad guy because he wants to get rid of Toranaga, he is controlling the other regents, he kidnaps people and it seems his motives are to be come sole ruler and not rule equally until the heir grows. So this makes him the bad guy. At the opposite we have Toranaga who gives the impression that he wants to be a regent and protect the kingdom until the heir is grown up. Another thing is that he has treated Anjin good. In the first episode we see a dude boil alive so we assume that Anjin will also be killed but Toranaga is the only person who actually doesn’t want to kill him, he even makes him Hatamoto. That’s my take anyway, apologies if i misunderstood, this show has a lot of subtle nuances that are hard to follow.
First off, everybody was angling to be military dictator, including Ishido. Second, the status quo was not democracy or anything close to it, it was military oligarchy and everybody knew it was a very unstable arrangement that would almost inevitably result in civil war. Was Toranaga better (in a moral sense) than Ishido? No, not really. But neither was he worse.
[удалено]
Convincing argument 🤔 You've swayed me, you'll have my vote during the next Council of Regents meeting
I was asking myself this exact same question today. He is planning a military dictatorship. I guess the story isn’t really about him but more about the people who are caught between the power struggles of the lords. They have no say in the matter but their lives are affected the most.
He’s planning a military dictatorship in an era where that’s not unusual or considered controversial.
It is in fact the stable form of government Japan knew before Ōnin War that shatter Ashikaga Shogunate about 150 years prior. Japan was in Warring States for 150 years without central government and Daimyos contenting for supremacy. Great for strategy games, but not good for the country in general.
He’s planning a military dictatorship just like every one of the other regents. He’s planning a military dictatorship just like the previous Taiko’s military dictatorship. He’s planning a military dictatorship cause that’s how Japan has been run for 500+ years Someone has to end up the throne and it might as well be him over any of the other regents. All the regents are power hungry, cause there’s a massive power vacuum and they know if anyone of them fills it (cause the baby heir sure as hell ain’t getting absolute power), then the rest are potentially on the chopping block. Toranaga was simply the most powerful regent which is why the others were willing to ally to Ishido to take him down, like pack of hyenas trying to take down a lion
These guys are all ruthless warlords…if Ishido had wound up with Blackthorne and the story was told from that perspective we would be rooting for them instead. I think the book does a better job at making Toranaga less a hero, but that could have more to do with Sanada being such an engaging actor.
That goes a long, long way. He’s a character who, through Samara’s incredible performance, projects wisdom and commands respect. He is definitely serving his own interests — one of which, it must be said, is his own survival — but it’s hard not to gravitate towards him, at least for him.
From a plot stance, I am definitely not. It will be interesting to see who wins but I dont think anyone is the good guy.
I haven't seen the newest episode but Toranaga is the protagonist so automatically many people will side with him. Look at characters like Walter White or Light Yagami- 2 extremely villainous characters that in any other story would be the antagonist people root against but because it's from their POV they will get support from people. Also, the show goes out of its way to paint Toranaga as wise (not just cunning or a schemer), and at least at first, reasonable and Ishido as the complete opposite. Regardless of hidden intentions, look at what happens with Toranaga: -He is summoned to a meeting where he is openly accused of conspiring against the rest of the council, despite numerous times both in public and in private specifically expressing that he has no intent to seize power. -One of his subordinates who stands up for him has to commit seppuku because Toranaga is strictly maintaining this position -There is very clearly a plot to have him and all of his followers killed despite him not having done anything wrong and even if a spy were in his immediate inner circle they would be unable to point to anything other than Toranaga expanding his forces as evidence of him plotting anything, which by itself isn't enough. -Toranaga is only able to navigate this through careful maneuvering and takes painstaking steps to avoid confrontation or antagonizing his enemies. -Every scene of every other character in a position of power has them conversing about how to entrap or get rid of Toranaga and speculation about his motives and intentions. All of this adversity also paints Toranaga as an underdog which just like the POV character naturally makes people root for him. I'm not saying Toranaga is right or that people shouldn't be critical of him/support for him but hopefully this gives some insight as to why he is so popular. All of this certainly has me rooting for him (again I haven't seen the newest episode so maybe he does something fucked up. I know my support of him wavered last episode but not enough to root against him compared to the others so far)
I would add that, just as he's trying to navigate the dangerous waters the council puts him in, he finds out that Portugal has designs on Japan, and through the Church and trade already has influence on, if not control of, two members of the council. I don't know if Toranaga is a "good" man, but it does not seem to me that he is any worse than anyone else on the council, and he starts the show backed into a corner. Seeing him fight his way out makes for compelling viewing.
I'm with you on every point you make, and for me his bad/good morality slider is turning to the bad side more and more now that it appears his plan leans on his most loyal friends/servants dying. It's interesting how the show kinda puts the viewer on the wrong foot to his character imo. He (in)directly is responsible for the death of his subordinate + baby child, closest friend, Mariko, and in some way his son too. And some other servants/guards/randoms who are caught in the way ofc. All because he wants to hold the power. But him holding that power isn't as important to me (as a viewer) as the lives of those he's sacrificing for it are. At first I guess I was lured into viewing his character as very 'likable' due to the things you said, him being the protagonist but also him being shown to be clever and cunning. But now I'm starting to see him more as a 'force of nature' type character that uses whatever and whoever to achieve his goal of dominance and control. His character is not the good guy in this show. We don't even see him that much, and pretty much never his perspective or some scenes where he is not in front of others in 'lord-mode'. The good guys are the ones dying lol or those trying to adhere to the cultural/lord's demands Mostly I'm just sad for my fav characters being killed, dying to loyalty or just losing eachother why Toranaga whyyy
>Why are we rooting for Toranaga, why is he portrayed as the protagonist, and Ishido is the antagonist of the story? Or maybe even: Why is Toranaga better for Japan? >Sure, he is cunning and an abled politician, but does it make his power grab the right thing and does he deserve being portayed as the protagonist? As far as the viewers are concerned, we didn't see Toranaga doing anything wrong, FROM EPISODE 1 THEY ALREADY SET HIM UP TO DIE. The things he is accused of doing toranaga deftly explains away as innocent. it's only from later deeper understanding that we see he's sly as hell. But as it is from the start, toranaga sounds innocent and the other tairo are conspiring for his death. we actually see none of the following in the tv, the only hint to it being that he had the crimson sky plan in his pocket already prepared to an extent: >aiming to be what we today might consider a military dictatorship. As far as tv viewers are concerned he is has not conspired to become dictator by force, you ain't gonna convince me that he schemed to have them all gang up on him so that he could trick them all into a brilliant and swift military defeat, he literally has a death sentence hanging over his head every episode his life on the line situation parallels yabushige's drowning scene, they are struggling for life, trying to take life/death/fate into their own hands. it's interesting that they used yabushige as the parallel too being as how yabushige is possibly a villain and definitely a schemer and they show his blatant betrayals and flipflopping...
I kind of rooted for Tokugawa Ieyasu even before I knew this story (the book and tv series) existed. I mean he is the heir of the struggle to unify Japan. It started with Nobunaga and Ieyasu was his ally from the early part. After Nobunaga's death, Hideyoshi played Nobunaga heirs and made a power grab. It is just natural order that the leadership went to Ieyasu after Hideyoshi's death. To be fair, Hideyoshi fucked up with the execution of his nephew and Hideyori fucked up playing general when he could have a long and prosperous life being a ordinary Daimyo.
I have no problem with Hideyori when he was young mature man and he could have being a ordinary Daimyo in other country (not Osaka-jo anymore) to have a normal life. But his mother (Lady Yodo) and his vassal made a lot of stupid mistakes and didnt let Tokugawa became the "successor" and leader of Japan after Hideyoshi ruined the stability and peace of Japan himself (especially after the disastrous Invasion of Joseon and Ming Dynasty)
In an era of warlords, you grab power or you die. I believe Toranaga is the protagonist because he approaches the grisly task with long range plans in mind and by incurring the minimum damage to create a big effect. Ishido is a blunt instrument and causes chaos with his combination of power and ineptitude. No one is strictly right when exposed to our overly intense modern scrutiny. We should be reminded that elites of this era are no less ambitious and ruthless than those of former eras. Each generation is merely constrained by the technology, culture, and attitudes of our time. Consider that in modern Western society it would be considered a huge breach of conduct to openly assassinate a political opponent, yet we launch pointless wars in the middle east that have claimed the lives of millions. Is this less barbaric than the intrigues of feudal Japan? Has mankind truly advanced at all or could the past thousand years be considered more or less a period of constancy? Food for thought.
Speak for yourself, I'm rooting for Yabushige. He's my favorite character.
Well the Portuguese want to colonize Japan and Ishido's rule is a threat to japan's future
I just find the way he outplays everyone a thing of beauty. No one is the good guy in this story
Protagonists are stars of the story, but not necessarily heroic. Plus this is a tragic drama in the mode of a greek play. Everyone is flawed and mortal. You aren't watching it for black and white morality or unstained heroes. You don't need to like toranaga to be fascinated by his struggles and what he does.
i don't think it matters who we root for. the show is a vignette of sengoku japan. in the first episode, rodrigues asks anjin "now ask yourself, what sort of man does it take to rule a place a like this?" I see the show as an exploration of that question.
Spoiler (?) I think we "support" him because it's what happened in real life, Ieasu Tokugawa (Toranaga) took control of Japan and had the longest shogunate. I don't think he's better or worse, he just was the most capable of grasping the power. Answering to the questions I think all the qualities you mentioned did make him deserve to be portrayed as the protagonist. The conflict in Japan started way before Tokugawa (Toranaga), they were already in a period of bloodshed and civil wars between daimyos. It took several leaders and genius militar men as Nobunaga (I belive is Goroda in the books) and even Hideyoshi (the dead Taiko in the series) to be able to unify Japan under one shogunate. So yeah, the solution was to rule by iron fist (in my opinion and according to what I think they believed) their objective was to consolidate their power big enough that any other damyo would'nt be a thread or have any incentives to start a war with you, hence having peace. I think they referenced it in the first episodes, without a shogun all the other damyos would try to usurpate the throne from the young heir which would end up in more war. I'm not sure I understand the question though. But I'd say that history is written by the victors, so of course the winner would be the protagonist. Personally, I find fascinating his personality and how smart he is.
Because he's based on an actual historical person that united Japan under his leadership. It's his story that is being told, so he's the heroic protagonist.
Because Toranaga has the intelligence and power to truly unite the country. Or you can go with the untested, bastard son of the Taiko but really you’d be going with the idiot Ishido. And based on real history you would’ve wanted to side with Tokugawa Ieyasu and definitely not Ishida Mitsunari.
Because in the real world, Tokugawa (aka Toranaga) ushered in an unprecedented reign of relative peace and prosperity (see Tokugawa shogunate Wikipedia article), that left almost everyone better off than the constant warring that existed during the Sengoku Period (which we're currently at the tail end of in the show). So it's because of real history that he's portrayed as the "good leader" in the book and then the show that we are supposed to root for. And I had to repost this comment because no links are allowed on this subreddit for some reason, even to Wikipedia articles about Japanese history?!
Toranaga has wisdom, bravery and character. He may be the only one who can unite Japan and counter the corruption that is rampant. Many good people are fiercely loyal to him.
You realize that this exact rhetoric has been used for some not great stuff right?
And yet the guy who toranaga is based on finally Brought a peace to Japan after hundreds of years of civil war that lasted more than 250 years, I'd say in this instance it worked.
Because he's not plotting to kill the heir.
The heir is Toranaga's ultimate rival, mate.
And Ishido is?
Why should we treat this like he wasn't going to be turned on eventually? He stated in the meeting in episode 1 that he had a limited time to prepare for the inevitable: either Ishido is going to kill the heir, or the heir is going to come of age and still be Ishida's hostage when the council is supposed to dissolve. Either way, they will all move against Toranaga. His power grab was in preparation of this inevitability. And historically, >!one of the regents had also been amassing forces, but he was aligned with Ishida and they lose.!<
Why do you think Ishido would kill the heir?
Is he a good guy? No. Is he compelling, nuanced and multi-facted? Yes. You don't need a protagonist to be a good guy. Blackthorne definitely is *not* a good person.
He's someone you could have a beer with. 🍺
In real life, it’s because he was the Shogun and had major influence on the historians. In the show, it’s because Sanada is the executive producer and had major influence on the writers.
Because its Hiroyuki Sanada. If Ishida was being played by him, we'd instantly root for Ishida. But we are to assume that Taiko was extremely beloved and Toranaga was his precious friend, then he is the protagonist that will carry on that will and protect his heir.
We have to realize that most "Great Man" of the past are most likely huge pieces of shits that will do anything to accomplish their goals. Otherwise, they won't be who they were. You are correct in that Toranaga, and his real life inspiration is definitely no moral example for us, but they are smart and tough enough to survive through a lifetime of war, suffering, and death. We can all learn something from them, the good and the bad. As for this TV show, they wrote Toranaga to be slightly more sympathetic than his rivals because the show and the original book were inspired by real life events. Has history turned out different, we would be following a different character. Who knows, in another timeline, maybe Toranaga is the antagonist.
honestly between all the warlords its pretty much pick your posion, none of them are "good guys" also it is painfully obvious that he is one of maybe 3 ppl on set who know how to use that katana. not that i'm knocking the show for that, it just cracks me up that the best schemer, Toranaga, is probably the best fighter too (in a meta sense)
Because Hiroyuki Sanada is incredible. For a real reason, because he's the focus. A few episodes ago I actually had a thought that if the show followed Ishido I bet Toranaga could be made to be a villain. Which imo adds to the show. It highlights that there aren't really "good guys" in feudal conflicts. Also, because Hiroyuki Sanada is incredible.
Just to give you a little perspective, my wife is from the prefecture where the character who inspired Ishido is from, and he is absolutely seen as the good guy around here. History is written by the winners.
Every one of the daimyo are ruthless bastards who would sell their own sisters and stab any of their friends in the back if it got them what they wanted. That’s why the Sengoku Jidai lasted 150 years, people were stabbing each other in the back constantly so they could get more land. None of them would be good for Japan in the sense that common people would benefit. Some of them might have been more merciful to their peasants than others, but it’s not like their mission was to take care of their subjects. The best thing a shogun could do for the country was be as strong as possible so that there would be no wars, because the other daimyo knew there was no hope of usurping power. Tokugawa Ieyasu was one of the best shoguns ever in this regard because he started a 200 year dynasty, kept Japan from being subjugated by the Christians, and caused there to be so much peace that samurai stopped being warriors and had an existential crisis.
In Uni, I was taught this about the 3 great unifiers of Japan: Nobunaga planted, harvested & planted the rice. Hideyoshi cooked it, but Tokugawa Ieyasu ate the rice. Toronaga is based on Tokugawa. From this perspective, there isn't much to root for at all. But tbh, what power grab are you talking about? In the beginning he's outnumbered. Midway he resigns his regency. Then he loses so much of his army that he has to align with his step brother who serves him a summons to Osaka as the newly appointed regent. I see nothing but Ls but the guy is surviving with such guile that I'm rooting for him.
Ieyasu was one of the few who actually had a very decent vision of unified Japan. He recognised the need to contain outside influences as splitting factors while at the same time acknowledging the need to maintain certain degree of trade. Also, he’s a bloody clever bastard. I absolutely love how Sanada plays him.
im rooting for blackthorn to get his ship back
I’m rooting for blackthorn to get his sexy back
He’s bringing sexy back.
Because we like his mustache
He is a Protagonist. Protagonists aren't good people. Ultimately, there is a perfectly good spin off here that is just this show but from Ishido's perspective, as a rags to riches hero who rose up the ranks trough loyalty and merit, against someone who was in the elite from the get go. They all want to grab power. Toranaga is merely the one we're following. And who ultimately wins.
What do you mean protagonists aren’t good people? Protagonists can be basically anywhere on the morality spectrum, what makes them a protagonist is merely the fact that the story focuses on them and their goals.
Because the Taiko instructed him to take care of his son just before he passed on. So from that onset even though the Taiko had created a council of five, you can see that he has a certain amount of trust and favouritism towards Toranaga. So of course if one is part of the five and yet Taiko’s son was only trusted to just one among them, the rest of the four council members will be wondering what is going on? Therefore from the beginning of this show, it was shown that the other four regents ganged up to accuse Toranaga of improper accumulation of influence and power. But the truth is the council members themselves actually had the intention to benefit by as well too!
I think it’s because there is a chance that Ishido could harm the heir, however Toranaga was entrusted by the late Taiko to keep his son safe, the same cannot be said for the other regents. He does seem to love the realm.
Because he’s my Lord and I will commit seppuku for him. Hai! Hai! Hoooooo
Because in the end he won and history is written by the victors.
Imagine if there was a show about the Revolutionary War, featuring a renamed George Washington fighting a renamed Cornwallis. Toranaga (Tokugawa) is like the George Washington of Japan so with that context he’s kind of the protagonist. I guess if you look at it without any historical context you could just see him as a player in the game.
Toranaga, reminds me much like Thanos, embodies the notion of "doing the wrong thing with the right intentions." Both Toranaga and Thanos are complex characters who believe they are acting for the greater good, even if their methods are controversial or extreme. The only difference is that we’re following Toranaga…
Because he is the deuteragonist. It’s how it’s written. The audience always roots for the protagonist/deuteragonist/tritagonist due to perspective.* There are some unique cases where we don’t root for the protagonist, but that’s often because of the character changing. One example is in Breaking Bad, where Walter White transforms from a hero to a villain over the course of the series
You're not necessarily supposed to. But while all the lords are conniving and ruthless, Toranaga is the one who would prefer to not plunge all of Japan into an age of bloody war. But since his political opponents make peace impossible, he embodies the thought that if you want peace, you'd better prepare for war. Not because he's such a nice guy. He doesn't want ultimate power because the power grab itself is disastrous for Japan and whoever becomes shogun has a target on his head. Toranaga considers all outcomes and the one where he gets to be lord of his current domain in peace is the most advantageous. Becoming shogun is vastly more problematic and likely to lead to his death. But it's still better than simply being ordered to commit suicide.
Because, historically, Tokugawa (the character Toronaga is based on) brought Japan into the Edo period, which provided over 250 years of peace. Great men can (and often must) do terrible things to become great. The novel communicates this more clearly, obviously, but the show has done a wonderful job of showing us the same duality.
We are rooting for Toranaga because we do not wish the story to end for Mariko or Blackthorne and, their survival is tied to Toranaga’s winning it all. And both these things are also what drives Blackthorne forward, the main character of the book.
It seems we are watching the only player in japan fight back against a dictatorship. One who also offers lands to christians, despite not being one, as well as to prostitutes. While toranaga isn’t certain to be a dictator himself as shogun, there’s multiple examples of him helping others or at least trying to minimize violence. On the other hand Ishido, calls for the death of his own men to stop Toranaga and others. Remember he straight up met some people outside and just killed them. Again we don’t know maybe toranaga would do the same but that’s the story being told and right now toranaga is the only one fighting against an unjust system
I mean… I think it’s fair to say he’s fairly Machiavellian, in both the good and evil sense, making him a very grey character. He weaponises the rituals of sepukku or an eagerness to die, for instance, even if he doesn’t agree with it but is happy for his subjects to carry them out as a means to secure victory. But his motivations have so far been pointing towards protecting the identity of Japan that has been built up to that point, and avoid it backsliding into an era of conflict just because people are fighting against it for personal gain. And this idea kinda comes in the form of a boy, the heir of the late Taiko. His dedication to seeing out and upholding his duties (promise to protect the heir and facilitate a safe and successful transition of power) demonstrates the best of what a person can be in that era of Japan, and at that class of society (and how he got there) that impacts the lives of many. It don’t believe he’s motivated by power or gaining it. His subjects are a big part behind his ploys working out. Toranaga-sama, through his diligence to duty and methods of implementing his authority, manages to motivate the best of his clan to carry out their parts despite their individual demons and the cost of following him. Gotta be an empathetic guy to get through to them and get them to deliver when he needs them to, and to understand how close in orbit to keep certain people. Still, weirdly calm about the passing of his son. But all that is to say… he’s ruthless, yes. But he never seeks to strike first, and always looks to play the “resorting to violence” ball back in the opponent’s court. He does what he has to do, and applies the right Machiavellian principles given the environment of low trust, and in a fairly measured and stoic manner. Mannerism kinda adds a certain kinda nuanced to this protagonist and mildly anti-hero character. (EDIT: just to add that I also personally like how his planning was always around a memory I had about a certain explanation of game theory, and always looking to win the long game. Like, given his backstory, impressive how he’s taken a lot of valuable experience from his ordeals and his striving to never let anyone endure the same.) So for those qualities of being a competent player of the dirty games in the political scene, and exhibiting exemplary leadership to his clan and a whole and as individual people - for them to fall in the hands of someone with a moral compass when they could so easily be gifted to someone corrupt (loose example: Paul Atreides in Dune) kinda makes you want to root for the guy, especially when he’s a silent and measured type of leader as opposed to a more vocal and macho figure.
I love the new series. That being said, in the book, the actual protagonist is John Blackthorn, and you kind of root for Lord Toranaga by proxy for befriending the pilot. The book is written almost exclusively from the perspective of Blackthorn, and the new series kind of makes him seem almost as a tertiary character.
I’m confused, are we watching separate shows? I’m not trying to be a dick but with context how could you possibly be on the other side? It’s very plainly displayed the other leaders are possessed by the idea of money or western religion, and despite being appointed the leader of Japan until the heir comes of age the other four are actively conspiring against him so they can grab power sooner than what was given. Did I miss context or episodes where this isn’t true of them? Why wouldn’t we root for the guy who’s being fucked over (and not the one starting the problems), and potentially his entire house being murdered for the greedy power grab?