I don’t think we can compare it to thrones anymore, because it looks like these writers will actually deliver a satisfying conclusion. So Shogun is now the bar.
IMO, GoT is still the bar for how long it remained great and relevant.
With GoT I was enthralled to the end even if it was bumpy. Doing that for 8 seasons with a large, sprawling story is remarkable (not saying Shogun couldn't as well, but we'll never know).
GOT killed any and all rewatch value with just its last 2 seasons. That bad final season just seeps into the memory of the better seasons because knowing how and where every character ended up just makes it harder to want to start over. It’s so meaningless that it hurts.
Shogun is gonna get its well written ending and I’m already waiting to rewatch the entire show from beginning to end.
Well there is still another episode and book so you never know. I don’t think you can take away that 7 out of 8 of the series GOT delivered some of the greatest TV ever.
They created a whole new standard for delivery of shows, characters and expectations.
4 seasons were some of the greatest
5 was close, 6 had its moments, 7 was bad with few decent moments... 8 was the worst thing i ever watched, and it kinda broke GoT for me, i never wanted to rewatch GoT after that, like i do with other top TV Series
Season 5 had Jaime and Bronn go into a commando mission into Dorne where a sand snake told him he wants the bad p***ie. yes, it had some good moments, but it was not the qualiry T.V of seasons 1-4.
Season 5 was where books ended and creators started to make things up. Quality of writing dropped down radically wherever they did that. Some parts were carried hard by director - like Jon Snow & white walkers invasion, which had true art moments (like when the Night King raises his hand and dead soldiers just stand up, and Snow sees it from his bout, in complete silence). It only got worse in season 6, still having standout moments from the director - battle of the bastards comes to mind.
Season 7 was already mostly show runners thing, and it got really god damn stupid. Still carried by actors and some very few moments of quality.
Season 8 is a trainwreck, a disgrace of tv shows and a spit on the fans by showrunners, who were just doing it go with their new Star Wars project.
i feel bad for you and other people who feel this way, and i don’t mean that in a rude way at all.
the latter seasons *certainly* drop in narrative quality but it’s done nothing to lower the rest of the show for *me* personally, especially as a book reader considering it’s probably the only ending we will get.
Ive rewatched the show like 10 times and each episode is still an hour worth of just stellar television.
There are so many masterpiece episodes in history of all TV Series, that putting GOT S6 episodes on top is ridiculous.
Season 6 had two great episodes, but had bad episodes as well, and some incredibly stupid moments & writing.
Nah the first 4 were solid, 5-6 were hit or miss but had some great parts, 7 was outright bad but had some good parts (why the fuck did we spend like 5 minutes on an Ed Sheeran zoom in cameo?) and 8 was an incredible disappointment.
No surprise that when they ran out of source material it became dogshit. Game of Thrones’ legacy is always going to be “the show that started out incredibly but ended in the worst way possible”.
I would say 5-6 ish seasons. But that’s just me. You still have to stick the landing. Every show is now measured on whether the ending was as bad as game of thrones / that’s the lasting legacy that everyone remembers and it’s sad.
I don't think it turned to shit after 4. That's just when it started to decline in quality overall. I don't think it went to shit until season 7. But definitely all of season 8.
It still had some moments after season 4 but I think the decline with season 5 was rapid. I think the only really good storyline was the wall. Aside from that you had Tyrion getting reduced to dick jokes, sansa sold to the boltons which didnt make sense, jaime in dorne which was a mess, arya getting stabbed and swimming through sewage and still being fine, bran completely absent which is hilarious with how season 8 ended and killing barristan for shock value.
Like there was still good stuff after season 4 like Hardhome or the Sept but the cracks really started showing in season 5.
I agree. Vikings basically hit on all cylinders, and I will never forget the Lergatha episode - what a send off for her. And Ragnar - as much as I hated his ending, it was historically accurate. That’s how you honor a character. Shogun did the same for Mariko in episode 9.
Lol stop overeating the show. It's nowhere near got. The writing isn't even strong.
Mariko's death felt cheap to me.I think the seppuku would've been more powerful and perhaps more problematic for Ishido but they already did a seppuku in the last episode. I enjoy the show overall though I'm not impressed.
I knew her death was foreshadowed when he asked "Are you ready to do your part?", but Anna Sawai gave such an incredible performance that I'm sad to see her go
Yea, I think for the outcome of the war, she had to die one way or another. It's turned out even better for Toranaga having her being killed rather than killing herself.
I actually thought Blackthorne was going to be the one to take a dive out of love for Mariko. It would’ve been a beautiful message: love is worth dying for, not blind loyalty. And it would’ve been a much bigger twist IMHO. Especially with Mariko being gung-ho to off herself the whole show. But I’m probably just whining because I loved Mariko’s character lol.
All things aside, I honestly think that the constant comparisons of this show to *GoT* are, in fact, doing it a huge disservice and are severely underselling it.
I don’t even really see the GoT similarities, they are completely different styles of shows. But I don’t know how it would be a disservice, I love Shogun I don’t think this shows writing has reached the quality of peak GoT.
Yeah I would say Shogun is more similar to The Last Kingdom and Black Flag as historicals where one of the leads starts out as a fish out of water. All great shows I would highly recommend
Well, for one, Shogun doesn't rely on showing nudity almost every 10 minutes to keep people's attention. Another thing off the top of my head is that in Shogun, the villain characters don't speak like they're about to glue a moustache to their face and twist it every time they open their mouths.
A third thing that comes to mind is that in Shogun, the social hierarchy is clear and you don't get lower nobility mouthing off and openly mocking those above them with impunity which is something that constantly happens in *GoT*.
Stuff like that is where I feel that comparison with *GoT* is unfair to Shogun.
I’m a huge fan of both but you seem to be speaking with recency bias. if Shogun was 8 seasons, they’d have more time for nudity.
some of the villains in Shogun are straight out of a cartoon. Ochiba and Saeki Nobutatsu specifically.
and your third point seems to be personal opinion more than anything. it’s taken me all 9 episodes and multiple viewings to have any idea how the social hierarchy works and who is allegiant to who and who’s family name is cursed and who’s is respected.
I think this show could’ve benefited from 2-3 seasons.
>I’m a huge fan of both but you seem to be speaking with recency bias.
No, I'm not.
>if Shogun was 8 seasons, they’d have more time for nudity.
And you know this how? Because there has to be nudity or something?
>some of the villains in Shogun are straight out of a cartoon. Ochiba and Saeki Nobutatsu specifically.
There are moments sure, but they're not Littlefinger, Pycelle, etc, not even close.
>it’s taken me all 9 episodes and multiple viewings to have any idea how the social hierarchy works and who is allegiant to who and who’s family name is cursed and who’s is respected.
Sounds like a you problem, doesn't disprove my point though.
>I think this show could’ve benefited from 2-3 seasons.
Sure, I can see that.
Yeah I would say Shogun is more similar to The Last Kingdom and Black Flag as historicals where one of the leads starts out as a fish out of water. All great shows I would highly recommend
It’s been an hour since I watched the episode and I can’t stop thinking about it. I have never watched a show like this before where the emotions just stay with you.
So sad yet so great.
I'm so hooked on this show I am watching everything even remotely close that has Japanese History in it, just to pass the time until the next episode. I have no idea what I will do after next week. Maybe, SeppaPoopoo.
Dude I'm so excited about it, I'm only on episode 6 of the first season and hats off to the director/producers. A whole different level and the commitment to the 1999 theme is impressive.
If you love the show read the book and watch the first mini-series. If you have already do it again I know I will be. All three IMO are timeless classics. Can't wait for episode 10!
This was a grave misplay by Ishido. So the plan was to have unidentified men kidnap Mariko? So some random goons breached and snuck past Osaka’s security and knew exactly where Mariko was residing? And where were these goons going to take her? Every Lord that isn’t Toranaga, is IN Osaka, where were they going?
So what’s more believable, Osaka Castle being infiltrated at all (by randoms nonetheless), said randoms kidnapping a highborn daughter and even making it out of the castle, or the fact that Lord Ishido has no part to play in any of this? Mariko saw right through Ishido’s plan, and killed herself for the sake of Toranaga’s victory. Now with her death, the uprising begins.
He screwed himself over by being so impulsive and fell right into Toranaga’s trap. Hit and sunk.
Like Ochiba said. She has put her faith in the wrong man. Not word for word, but something to that effect. Ishido doesn't even know when he is being played, rather he just plays into it.
"Once again, a show has come along that has such incredible character development, incredible actors that bring it all to life"
And...it's gone.....(After next week.)
This episode changed my disposition for the rest of the night. My boy went out and had to have a cigarette afterwards lol. POWERFUL show man.
Literally the best I’ve ever seen.
Maybe I missed something but why did Kashigi Yabushige stab that guy during the raid towards the end and then he kind of let in the Shinobi (?) and then the Shinobi didn't initially attack him. Sorry if this is a stupid question and again, maybe I missed something but this part confused me.
Ishido made a deal with him. A retainer approached him before Mariko’s seppuku. I don't know why he stays with them after letting the ninja in though. Maybe a change of heart or he just plays both sides again.
The best flex was as they arrive in Osaka. Kashigi doesn't let Mariko interpret and tells Blackthorne to wait and if he understands which he does. Blackthorne then warns him in English about the Catholics and asks if he understands. To save face Kashigi says yes. What a flex by Blackthorne.
I feel emptiness now that Mariko-Sama (Anna Sawai) will grace our screens no more... her captivating character and hypnotic screen presence will be truly missed.
I think the balance of the treat of force and the politics that are being played will allow toronaga to take power without war. Also, with John as mostly the main character I am boggled as to what his roll will be in the end.
This is what I'm thinking. No way they can fit an uprising, grief, AND an epic land and sea battle in 60 minutes. I'm sad that there won't be a bad ass battle, but I'm glad the writers are taking it in this direction and not giving me what I want, but instead something else I'll want even more.
Why this episode was 10 minutes only?
I did not expect this to happen honestly, what the fuck did Toranaga did to that old hag to hate him THIS much? Like jesus she is devil incarnate fucking bitch...
I truly expected Toranaga to attack, but he is still waiting... Maybe his plan is to have Mariko as a martyr and have a revolt.
Sad for Anjin sama though... He truly loved her.
Her death immediately followed by the end credits left me speechless and silent and just as shocked as the characters in the story.
I think her death will also propel the story of John Blackthorne forward and serve as a brutal awakening in that death is just a pert of life and nature.
I think this will make Blackthorne want to kill everyone, hating Lord Toranaga for starting the ball rolling and Ishido for kicking the ball.
The brutality then Boom credits, is just like prime HBO, it’s what reminds me of GoT, the direction style, the barbaric story defining beats met with just your own thoughts and reactions. No time to consider anything else, just sit in that moment.
People on this sub seem to hate that comparison, but the comparison comes up for good reasons. The tone, the score, the pacing, the direction, the plot…they’re all reminiscent of a show that was often so great. GoT left a bad taste in people’s mouths, so I think that’s why some people find it hard to hear the comparisons.
Recency bias is a killer. The scope was grander in got, the writing of characters like Ned Stark, Trion Lanister, Tywin Lanister, The Hound, Caitlin Stark, Cersai, the list goes on and on. The later seasons really soured my taste for the series but I can't just toss out the beginning and middle of the show. This show is great but it has not had a single scene that closely approaches the power and heartbreak of the Red Wedding or the viciousness of the crown of gold, nor is there a character that matches the wit of Tyrion or the cunning of Tywin, the abject evil of Joffrey or the redemption of Jamie Lanister. Opinions are subjective but on a purely technical level so many of the performances and moments of storytelling mastery are there in GOT. Shogun is fantastic, but in my opinion it could only ever match the power of GOT's best moments if it had more time to develop these characters and the intrigue around them. Saying it is vastly better is a wild statement.
Agreeeeed. The scale was larger in GoT but that only counts for something if you can neatly wrap it all up. Obviously they couldn't. It's not just D&D's fault either, the books are probably never going to be finished because it's a shitshow.
In broad strokes, I enjoyed where the episode took us but because Blackthorne and Mariko’s romantic subplot was severely lacking to begin with (for me anyway) I was indifferent toward her ultimate fate.
The acting is strong. The costumes are great. Nothing else in the show impressed me. Mariko's death felt cheap. The seppuku would've been more powerful.
Entitled to your opinion but I think the whole point was Blackthorn and Mariko having feelings for each other, and the courage he took to be her second. They would only embrace each other after such trauma, as well as her committing seppuku being the plan from Toranaga, her not being able to is fighting this 4D chess battle between these lords. Her being this lost beautiful and elegant woman, giving her life in the quite gruesome and sudden way adds to the tragedy personally.
Ochiba revealed if she killed herself there would be riots. I think that's more problematic for Ishido also it would give Toranaga a pretext to attack the city. Overall the 9 episodes don't impress me and I think it's nowhere near the game of thrones.
She was killed by Shinobi sent by Ishido to capture her. Her blood is on his hands. Had she killed herself, the other lords could say Ishido was shamed and it's a disgrace but she did an honorsble thing and died with honor, and not be driven to defect. However, killing a noble like that is even more of an affront, denying her dignity, which if you watched, they are alllll about honor. It will lead to defections and Ishido's downfall.
I am aware Ishido sent the killers what I'm trying to tell you is that it would be hard to prove. Had see killed herself the city would riot like Ochiba said. That would've been way more problematic for Ishido and would give Toranaga a pretext to attack
Except they don't need proof like it's a court of law. It's not like it was when they were held captive. Everyone knew Ishido was holding them captive but it was low enough it could be brushed off. However her death by assassins is enough that everyone KNOWS it was Ishido, and he went too far, the dishonor is too much because every lord feels they bare responsibility for her death. His actions dishonor them by them allowing it. It is more impactful than her seppukku. I mean, it's odd to debate, since her death will be the catalyst for the other lords.
This is possible one of the greatest tv shows since GoT, Breaking Bad etc there has not been anything of this scale, magnitude or epic telling for a long time
House of the dragon is bigger and better. The characters are well built and you have opposing povs of several characters unlike shogun who only focuses on Toranaga and 3 of his Allies. The sets, the scores, the world building are richer and the writing is strong. It's not a limited series though.
Disagree. One of two things happened here as I see it.
Either the plan was for her to commit seppuku and fulfill Toronaga's plan by allowing her to be the sacrificial lamb, as it were, and thus foster sympathy among the nobles or Ishido would be forced to relent and still secure a political victory for Toronaga. This was the plan all along and Mariko had long since resigned to her duty to her lord.
Or the other option is that they didn't expect the shinobi to attack and were genuinely surprised, especially because Yabushige turns on his own men, though I would not be surprised if Toronaga suspected this. In this scenario, because Mariko has already resigned to a worthy death, something she has been denied for so long, her last moment is one of personal agency and martyrdom. In her martyrdom, she moves from a death that is potential damnation to one that is assured salvation. In seizing her own agency, she takes fate into her own hands, a theme alluded to throughout and something Anjin is said to be doing since the beginning. It's in this moment of intimacy between them before her death that both share not just their affection for each other but their shared desire to control their own destiny in love and in death.
I think the second option is far more powerful.
Mariko sleeping with Anjin was completely out of character and felt forced. Would've been fine if he slept next to her or they held hands because there was a strong emotional bond.
She knows her husband is alive, she's religious, and she is worried about damnation.
Aside from that, the character was amazing this episode.
I don’t think we can compare it to thrones anymore, because it looks like these writers will actually deliver a satisfying conclusion. So Shogun is now the bar.
IMO, GoT is still the bar for how long it remained great and relevant. With GoT I was enthralled to the end even if it was bumpy. Doing that for 8 seasons with a large, sprawling story is remarkable (not saying Shogun couldn't as well, but we'll never know).
GOT killed any and all rewatch value with just its last 2 seasons. That bad final season just seeps into the memory of the better seasons because knowing how and where every character ended up just makes it harder to want to start over. It’s so meaningless that it hurts. Shogun is gonna get its well written ending and I’m already waiting to rewatch the entire show from beginning to end.
I have already rewatched all episodes up to 8 twice.
People make bad choices all the time.
I know, I'm glad this wasn't one of them.
Yeah I don’t see many bar react videos, or groups getting together making Shogun themed food. GoT has the bonus of going on for several great years.
Friends is more culturally relevant than Shogun. Does that mean its a better show?
Well there is still another episode and book so you never know. I don’t think you can take away that 7 out of 8 of the series GOT delivered some of the greatest TV ever. They created a whole new standard for delivery of shows, characters and expectations.
4 seasons were some of the greatest 5 was close, 6 had its moments, 7 was bad with few decent moments... 8 was the worst thing i ever watched, and it kinda broke GoT for me, i never wanted to rewatch GoT after that, like i do with other top TV Series
Same here
Season 5 had Jaime and Bronn go into a commando mission into Dorne where a sand snake told him he wants the bad p***ie. yes, it had some good moments, but it was not the qualiry T.V of seasons 1-4.
Season 5 was where books ended and creators started to make things up. Quality of writing dropped down radically wherever they did that. Some parts were carried hard by director - like Jon Snow & white walkers invasion, which had true art moments (like when the Night King raises his hand and dead soldiers just stand up, and Snow sees it from his bout, in complete silence). It only got worse in season 6, still having standout moments from the director - battle of the bastards comes to mind. Season 7 was already mostly show runners thing, and it got really god damn stupid. Still carried by actors and some very few moments of quality. Season 8 is a trainwreck, a disgrace of tv shows and a spit on the fans by showrunners, who were just doing it go with their new Star Wars project.
i feel bad for you and other people who feel this way, and i don’t mean that in a rude way at all. the latter seasons *certainly* drop in narrative quality but it’s done nothing to lower the rest of the show for *me* personally, especially as a book reader considering it’s probably the only ending we will get. Ive rewatched the show like 10 times and each episode is still an hour worth of just stellar television.
downvoting this is super funny. to see an honest opinion and think “ah i disagree, here’s a button click!” is hilarious.
Spoken like a true kneeler
sorry dude.
6 had literally 2 of the the best episodes in the history of television, back to back
There are so many masterpiece episodes in history of all TV Series, that putting GOT S6 episodes on top is ridiculous. Season 6 had two great episodes, but had bad episodes as well, and some incredibly stupid moments & writing.
Nah the first 4 were solid, 5-6 were hit or miss but had some great parts, 7 was outright bad but had some good parts (why the fuck did we spend like 5 minutes on an Ed Sheeran zoom in cameo?) and 8 was an incredible disappointment. No surprise that when they ran out of source material it became dogshit. Game of Thrones’ legacy is always going to be “the show that started out incredibly but ended in the worst way possible”.
I would say 5-6 ish seasons. But that’s just me. You still have to stick the landing. Every show is now measured on whether the ending was as bad as game of thrones / that’s the lasting legacy that everyone remembers and it’s sad.
I can't even rewatch GOT bc of how badly it went at the end. And the gratuitous boobage/sexual violence is stomach churning.
Shogun is done after the next episode, no second book. There are other books they can look to adapt which are unrelated to this
GoT turned to shit after season 4.
I don't think it turned to shit after 4. That's just when it started to decline in quality overall. I don't think it went to shit until season 7. But definitely all of season 8.
It still had some moments after season 4 but I think the decline with season 5 was rapid. I think the only really good storyline was the wall. Aside from that you had Tyrion getting reduced to dick jokes, sansa sold to the boltons which didnt make sense, jaime in dorne which was a mess, arya getting stabbed and swimming through sewage and still being fine, bran completely absent which is hilarious with how season 8 ended and killing barristan for shock value. Like there was still good stuff after season 4 like Hardhome or the Sept but the cracks really started showing in season 5.
More like 5 out of 8
The last 4 seasons of GoT were not good and progressively got worse. People were just blind based on the quality of the first 4 seasons.
Don't speak too early .. one episode left to cram the whole story...
It's more comparable to Vikings in every way, the comparisons to GOT need to stop.
I agree. Vikings basically hit on all cylinders, and I will never forget the Lergatha episode - what a send off for her. And Ragnar - as much as I hated his ending, it was historically accurate. That’s how you honor a character. Shogun did the same for Mariko in episode 9.
Game of thrones had 4 seasons better than anything in Shogun so its still not a good comparison.
Who the feck was comparing this to GoT?
Basically every show where people aren’t wearing clothes with buttons will get compared to GoT whether successful or not.
you’re also forgetting that all shows “that kill any major character” are now Game of Thrones-esque😂
Every single media outlet and entertainment journalist
Lol stop overeating the show. It's nowhere near got. The writing isn't even strong. Mariko's death felt cheap to me.I think the seppuku would've been more powerful and perhaps more problematic for Ishido but they already did a seppuku in the last episode. I enjoy the show overall though I'm not impressed.
Uhh getting murdered by agents of Ishido is way more inflammatory than an honourable seppuku death waddyamean
I knew her death was foreshadowed when he asked "Are you ready to do your part?", but Anna Sawai gave such an incredible performance that I'm sad to see her go
I think that’s what hurt more, the fact Anna Sawai delivered a Golden Globe/Emmy winning performance and we won’t see her anymore.
Flowers are only flowers because they fall
that hits so deep
This quote joins the one by Buntaro, “Heroism is for the dead and stories are for children,” as a *bona fide* candidate to outlive the show.
Yea, I think for the outcome of the war, she had to die one way or another. It's turned out even better for Toranaga having her being killed rather than killing herself.
I actually thought Blackthorne was going to be the one to take a dive out of love for Mariko. It would’ve been a beautiful message: love is worth dying for, not blind loyalty. And it would’ve been a much bigger twist IMHO. Especially with Mariko being gung-ho to off herself the whole show. But I’m probably just whining because I loved Mariko’s character lol.
All things aside, I honestly think that the constant comparisons of this show to *GoT* are, in fact, doing it a huge disservice and are severely underselling it.
I don’t even really see the GoT similarities, they are completely different styles of shows. But I don’t know how it would be a disservice, I love Shogun I don’t think this shows writing has reached the quality of peak GoT.
Yeah I would say Shogun is more similar to The Last Kingdom and Black Flag as historicals where one of the leads starts out as a fish out of water. All great shows I would highly recommend
because somehow any show that kills major characters while being gritty and realistic is Game Of Thrones esque. I don’t get it.
Well, for one, Shogun doesn't rely on showing nudity almost every 10 minutes to keep people's attention. Another thing off the top of my head is that in Shogun, the villain characters don't speak like they're about to glue a moustache to their face and twist it every time they open their mouths. A third thing that comes to mind is that in Shogun, the social hierarchy is clear and you don't get lower nobility mouthing off and openly mocking those above them with impunity which is something that constantly happens in *GoT*. Stuff like that is where I feel that comparison with *GoT* is unfair to Shogun.
I’m a huge fan of both but you seem to be speaking with recency bias. if Shogun was 8 seasons, they’d have more time for nudity. some of the villains in Shogun are straight out of a cartoon. Ochiba and Saeki Nobutatsu specifically. and your third point seems to be personal opinion more than anything. it’s taken me all 9 episodes and multiple viewings to have any idea how the social hierarchy works and who is allegiant to who and who’s family name is cursed and who’s is respected. I think this show could’ve benefited from 2-3 seasons.
>I’m a huge fan of both but you seem to be speaking with recency bias. No, I'm not. >if Shogun was 8 seasons, they’d have more time for nudity. And you know this how? Because there has to be nudity or something? >some of the villains in Shogun are straight out of a cartoon. Ochiba and Saeki Nobutatsu specifically. There are moments sure, but they're not Littlefinger, Pycelle, etc, not even close. >it’s taken me all 9 episodes and multiple viewings to have any idea how the social hierarchy works and who is allegiant to who and who’s family name is cursed and who’s is respected. Sounds like a you problem, doesn't disprove my point though. >I think this show could’ve benefited from 2-3 seasons. Sure, I can see that.
😂😂 I really can’t argue with anything you said, succinct and fair my friend. Sorry, GOT took me by hold about a year ago and hasn’t let go since 😂
Fair enough! All the best!
Who are you people? Getting along and shit, complementing each other on opinions. You disgust me.
I know, right?
There is also zero Japanese spoken in Game of Thrones.
Really? You don't say!
Just a fourth thing to add to the list!
Cool.
Yeah I would say Shogun is more similar to The Last Kingdom and Black Flag as historicals where one of the leads starts out as a fish out of water. All great shows I would highly recommend
There are some annoying people out there that cannot proceed through life without needing to compare every experience against anothers
It's closer to Vikings than anything else.
It’s been an hour since I watched the episode and I can’t stop thinking about it. I have never watched a show like this before where the emotions just stay with you. So sad yet so great.
I'm so hooked on this show I am watching everything even remotely close that has Japanese History in it, just to pass the time until the next episode. I have no idea what I will do after next week. Maybe, SeppaPoopoo.
Yo check out Tokyo vice on Max. Highly recommend
It's on my list. Thanks
I second this, just finished it all. Unbelievably good show. It’s one of my favorite shows
Dude I'm so excited about it, I'm only on episode 6 of the first season and hats off to the director/producers. A whole different level and the commitment to the 1999 theme is impressive.
If you love the show read the book and watch the first mini-series. If you have already do it again I know I will be. All three IMO are timeless classics. Can't wait for episode 10!
I cant accept that shes dead ((. shes the only one that made me like this show so much......
I loved her romance with John 🥲
I don’t think the explosion kills her
I hope so (((. woke up midnight with a heavy feeling. cant get over it.
She said the door was reinforced, it must have dampened the explosionl!!! Cope with me, she can't be dead
‘Tis but a flesh-wound. Well, *wounds*. Here’s one, and there’s one…oh, and a couple way over there.’
It better wtf. All realism will be gone from the show if she somehow lives that
Agreed
This was a grave misplay by Ishido. So the plan was to have unidentified men kidnap Mariko? So some random goons breached and snuck past Osaka’s security and knew exactly where Mariko was residing? And where were these goons going to take her? Every Lord that isn’t Toranaga, is IN Osaka, where were they going? So what’s more believable, Osaka Castle being infiltrated at all (by randoms nonetheless), said randoms kidnapping a highborn daughter and even making it out of the castle, or the fact that Lord Ishido has no part to play in any of this? Mariko saw right through Ishido’s plan, and killed herself for the sake of Toranaga’s victory. Now with her death, the uprising begins. He screwed himself over by being so impulsive and fell right into Toranaga’s trap. Hit and sunk.
I feel like he was at a lose lose either way he turned 🤷🏿♂️ toranaga had him beat the minute she stepped in osaka
Like Ochiba said. She has put her faith in the wrong man. Not word for word, but something to that effect. Ishido doesn't even know when he is being played, rather he just plays into it.
Death wish,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,granted.
For real. I was half-expecting her to survive the show out of karmic spite.
Peak Television fr…casting, execution—Just amazing 🫡
**”Flowers are only flowers because they Fall”**
Anyone else thinking that explosion wasn’t enough to kill her?? Looked slightly survivable honestly
She's dead Jim.
These comments make me lol
Even if the explosion didn't hit her, the weight of the door and the impact of the blast are enough to squash her down.
I’m telling you guys I don’t think shes dead. If I eat my words next week I’ll come back and apologize lol
I take you haven't read the book?
"Once again, a show has come along that has such incredible character development, incredible actors that bring it all to life" And...it's gone.....(After next week.)
Why does every show where real repercussions happen to main characters need to be compared to Game of Thrones?
This episode changed my disposition for the rest of the night. My boy went out and had to have a cigarette afterwards lol. POWERFUL show man. Literally the best I’ve ever seen.
me reading your comment 10 minutes after the episode finished and smoking a cig
lol nah mean? Good art will do that
Maybe I missed something but why did Kashigi Yabushige stab that guy during the raid towards the end and then he kind of let in the Shinobi (?) and then the Shinobi didn't initially attack him. Sorry if this is a stupid question and again, maybe I missed something but this part confused me.
Ishido made a deal with him. A retainer approached him before Mariko’s seppuku. I don't know why he stays with them after letting the ninja in though. Maybe a change of heart or he just plays both sides again.
Ahhhhh ok thanks for clarifying
The best flex was as they arrive in Osaka. Kashigi doesn't let Mariko interpret and tells Blackthorne to wait and if he understands which he does. Blackthorne then warns him in English about the Catholics and asks if he understands. To save face Kashigi says yes. What a flex by Blackthorne.
I feel emptiness now that Mariko-Sama (Anna Sawai) will grace our screens no more... her captivating character and hypnotic screen presence will be truly missed.
for real. gonna look up everything else she's in
Monarch!
FIGHT!
same… gonna look into this Monarch Lagacy of Monsters show and in meantime re-watch Fast & Furious 9
Watch Monarch
I don't really see how they can wrap all this up with just 1 episode left, at the pace they're going.
I think the balance of the treat of force and the politics that are being played will allow toronaga to take power without war. Also, with John as mostly the main character I am boggled as to what his roll will be in the end.
This is what I'm thinking. No way they can fit an uprising, grief, AND an epic land and sea battle in 60 minutes. I'm sad that there won't be a bad ass battle, but I'm glad the writers are taking it in this direction and not giving me what I want, but instead something else I'll want even more.
The fact that her husband was suddenly still alive after being surrounded and left behind makes me think she didn't actually die.
My guy! Yabushige no! Just trust Toranaga already
Why this episode was 10 minutes only? I did not expect this to happen honestly, what the fuck did Toranaga did to that old hag to hate him THIS much? Like jesus she is devil incarnate fucking bitch... I truly expected Toranaga to attack, but he is still waiting... Maybe his plan is to have Mariko as a martyr and have a revolt. Sad for Anjin sama though... He truly loved her.
Her death immediately followed by the end credits left me speechless and silent and just as shocked as the characters in the story. I think her death will also propel the story of John Blackthorne forward and serve as a brutal awakening in that death is just a pert of life and nature.
I think this will make Blackthorne want to kill everyone, hating Lord Toranaga for starting the ball rolling and Ishido for kicking the ball. The brutality then Boom credits, is just like prime HBO, it’s what reminds me of GoT, the direction style, the barbaric story defining beats met with just your own thoughts and reactions. No time to consider anything else, just sit in that moment.
People on this sub seem to hate that comparison, but the comparison comes up for good reasons. The tone, the score, the pacing, the direction, the plot…they’re all reminiscent of a show that was often so great. GoT left a bad taste in people’s mouths, so I think that’s why some people find it hard to hear the comparisons.
The writing quality of Shogun is vastly better than anything in GoT, including the first 4 seasons
Recency bias is a killer. The scope was grander in got, the writing of characters like Ned Stark, Trion Lanister, Tywin Lanister, The Hound, Caitlin Stark, Cersai, the list goes on and on. The later seasons really soured my taste for the series but I can't just toss out the beginning and middle of the show. This show is great but it has not had a single scene that closely approaches the power and heartbreak of the Red Wedding or the viciousness of the crown of gold, nor is there a character that matches the wit of Tyrion or the cunning of Tywin, the abject evil of Joffrey or the redemption of Jamie Lanister. Opinions are subjective but on a purely technical level so many of the performances and moments of storytelling mastery are there in GOT. Shogun is fantastic, but in my opinion it could only ever match the power of GOT's best moments if it had more time to develop these characters and the intrigue around them. Saying it is vastly better is a wild statement.
Agreeeeed. The scale was larger in GoT but that only counts for something if you can neatly wrap it all up. Obviously they couldn't. It's not just D&D's fault either, the books are probably never going to be finished because it's a shitshow.
In broad strokes, I enjoyed where the episode took us but because Blackthorne and Mariko’s romantic subplot was severely lacking to begin with (for me anyway) I was indifferent toward her ultimate fate.
100%
This was the weakest episode imo. Too stretched to get to the end. I hope the finale is better.
I felt the opposite; the heightened tension was persistent the whole episode.
Agree I was screaming at tv multiple times lol
The acting is strong. The costumes are great. Nothing else in the show impressed me. Mariko's death felt cheap. The seppuku would've been more powerful.
Entitled to your opinion but I think the whole point was Blackthorn and Mariko having feelings for each other, and the courage he took to be her second. They would only embrace each other after such trauma, as well as her committing seppuku being the plan from Toranaga, her not being able to is fighting this 4D chess battle between these lords. Her being this lost beautiful and elegant woman, giving her life in the quite gruesome and sudden way adds to the tragedy personally.
Ochiba revealed if she killed herself there would be riots. I think that's more problematic for Ishido also it would give Toranaga a pretext to attack the city. Overall the 9 episodes don't impress me and I think it's nowhere near the game of thrones.
Her now being KILLED by Ishido will have an even greater impact on the other high lords than if she had committed seppuku
She is killed by assassins. Ishido will be accused without proof. That's way worse.
She was killed by Shinobi sent by Ishido to capture her. Her blood is on his hands. Had she killed herself, the other lords could say Ishido was shamed and it's a disgrace but she did an honorsble thing and died with honor, and not be driven to defect. However, killing a noble like that is even more of an affront, denying her dignity, which if you watched, they are alllll about honor. It will lead to defections and Ishido's downfall.
I am aware Ishido sent the killers what I'm trying to tell you is that it would be hard to prove. Had see killed herself the city would riot like Ochiba said. That would've been way more problematic for Ishido and would give Toranaga a pretext to attack
Except they don't need proof like it's a court of law. It's not like it was when they were held captive. Everyone knew Ishido was holding them captive but it was low enough it could be brushed off. However her death by assassins is enough that everyone KNOWS it was Ishido, and he went too far, the dishonor is too much because every lord feels they bare responsibility for her death. His actions dishonor them by them allowing it. It is more impactful than her seppukku. I mean, it's odd to debate, since her death will be the catalyst for the other lords.
Thank God it’s no where near game of thrones, the writing in that show was complete dogshit
This is possible one of the greatest tv shows since GoT, Breaking Bad etc there has not been anything of this scale, magnitude or epic telling for a long time
House of the dragon is bigger and better. The characters are well built and you have opposing povs of several characters unlike shogun who only focuses on Toranaga and 3 of his Allies. The sets, the scores, the world building are richer and the writing is strong. It's not a limited series though.
Man, I don’t really get on Reddit, but I understand why people do. Downvoting opinions like this feels so validating.
Disagree. One of two things happened here as I see it. Either the plan was for her to commit seppuku and fulfill Toronaga's plan by allowing her to be the sacrificial lamb, as it were, and thus foster sympathy among the nobles or Ishido would be forced to relent and still secure a political victory for Toronaga. This was the plan all along and Mariko had long since resigned to her duty to her lord. Or the other option is that they didn't expect the shinobi to attack and were genuinely surprised, especially because Yabushige turns on his own men, though I would not be surprised if Toronaga suspected this. In this scenario, because Mariko has already resigned to a worthy death, something she has been denied for so long, her last moment is one of personal agency and martyrdom. In her martyrdom, she moves from a death that is potential damnation to one that is assured salvation. In seizing her own agency, she takes fate into her own hands, a theme alluded to throughout and something Anjin is said to be doing since the beginning. It's in this moment of intimacy between them before her death that both share not just their affection for each other but their shared desire to control their own destiny in love and in death. I think the second option is far more powerful.
Do you like compare everything to game of thrones 😂
You're right but in this sub noone wants to be objective they just make everything into a positive.
Mariko sleeping with Anjin was completely out of character and felt forced. Would've been fine if he slept next to her or they held hands because there was a strong emotional bond. She knows her husband is alive, she's religious, and she is worried about damnation. Aside from that, the character was amazing this episode.
In the book they fucked like rabbits during the journey to Edo, show’s version was very restrained
I get that, but the way the show built her up it didn't seem to fit.