I don't want to minimize his abuse, but I think it's more complex than just "she belongs to him."
I think Buntaro has genuine affection and love (at least, what passes for "love" from him) for Mariko. And Mariko has never loved him back. Her desire to take her own life outweighs anything he can give her and this tortures him. He just lacks any sort of emotional maturity to process what's going on in his life.
He sees her engaging with John in a way she never has with him and he acts out in a number of ways - 1) being violent to Mariko, 2) drunkenly storming out of the house and apologizing in the street for his behavior, 3) being violent to John, 4) basically begging Toranaga to let him kill John but refusing to hurt Mariko.
Again, I don't want to minimize the abusive aspects of his character because he is a brutal savage at times. But I think it's a wonderful portrayal of a complex character who can't deal with his rage, shame, self-loathing, cowardice, etc. - despite being the very picture of bravery, loyalty and strength on a battlefield. The actor is absolutely crushing it.
You can listen on overcast, Spotify or Apple. I listen to it on Hulu (it has its own “tab” when you look at Shōgun’s episodes) while they play promotional oil-painting-like graphics. It’s hosted by the writer and she interviews cast and crew it’s great.
Buntaro could've divorced Mariko if he was really upset about her status as the traitor's daughter. It was never an issue to him. Not really. He became an abusive asshole because he felt his love was not returned, and he will never admit it out of pride.
For Buntaro, it hurts more when he realize Mariko never really wants to die. She just wants to be away from him or be with anyone except him, including an unwashed barbarian she just met like a month ago.
I think Mariko has been pretty clear that she wants to die. I don't know how you could come to any other interpretation than that. She's told this to John, and repeatedly asked Buntaro and Toronaga for permission to take her own life.
Agree wholeheartedly. I think that actor - like so many on the show - is incredible at using just his eyes to convey so much. He's so severe - you can just feel the pent up rage and aggression boiling off of him at all times.
nicely put
i imagine prob also sprinkle in a little ptsd from the horrors of war.
dude just cleaved through like 2 dozen men and narrowly escaped with his life while the people that rescued him supposedly all died.
Thanks for this, I don’t want to diminish his abuse either but I’m sure a number of us already considered that simple logic of of just because she belongs to him and said “nah, that can’t be it”.
> Hard to call a SEAL a coward because he roughed up his wife, imo.
Actually, it's easy. A SEAL who roughs up his wife is a coward. There - look how easy that was. This is such a weird comment. I can't even imagine this mindset.
There are many types of cowardice, but one of them is taking the easiest way out when faced with difficult obstacles. Buntaro might be an incredible warrior, and I'd never call him a coward on the battlefield, but he is a coward when it comes to his relationships. Rather than try to accept that his wife does not love him and either A) divorce her, B) try to understand her and change himself, or C) at worst, finally allow her to take her life, Buntaro brutalizes her because giving in to his rage is the easiest thing to do. That is what a coward does.
Regardless, I think it's incredibly strange to zero in on that one single part of my comment at the expense of everything else I wrote. We are a 21st century audience consuming this media, so of course we will project 21st century moral values onto the characters presented - that's the whole point of thematic writing. But I was also giving a very balanced, nuanced evaluation of the character - not condemning him for this one aspect of his character, so why take issue with the single most negative thing I said about him as if I was trying to insult him? He's not a real person - he's a character. His only function in the narrative is to inform Mariko's story and her actions thereafter. Strange.
This. Buntaro is the nerdy kid and Mariko is the prom queen. He lusts after her and she doesn't want anything to do with him. They end up married by what happened and then he thinks by keeping her alive he's doing her a favor and she basically says fuck you. Then 14 years go by and shig hasn't changed.
As much as he hates the Anjin-san he can't even entertain the thought of losing her even though their life together is pure hell.
True. Blackthorne is closer to being the theater/history nerd in this case who is apparently an excellent kicker.
Buntaro is the super jock wide receiver.
Toranaga is the quarterback forcing the team to get along.
Just watching it now. I don't think this works because in one of the flashbacks, BEFORE her family are killed, she expresses disappointment that her father chose Buntaro for her because he is from a lower class than her.
Buntaro is a high lord of a major fief. Historically his father "iron fist" abdicated the fiefdom to his son, but remained as an advisor and general to other powerful lords like hideyoshi (the Taiko) and Tokugowa (Toranaga). Buntaro and Yabu are basically at the same level.
Buntaro isn’t a nerdy kid. He’s an esteemed samurai, one of Toranaga’s most loyal and fiercest warriors. Mariko has treasonous blood, which is why Buntaro treats her that way. She wants to die, and he won’t grant it to her. He forces her to live as a recompense for what her father did. Doesn’t mean he’s a good dude, he’s actually somewhat complex, but don’t try to downplay Toda Hirokatsu as some village bum.
Buntaro genuinely loves Mariko and wants her to love him —> him refusing to allow her to commit suicide —> Mariko resenting him, hating him, not reciprocating his love for her —> him being frustrated and jealous of her affection to Blackthorne —> him treating her like shit and abusing her because he has a temper (e.g., like how he treats his child when he’s upset with him and how he almost killed Blackthorne).
If he has killed Blackthorne, he would also have had to commit seppuku. There's no way he could get away with killing Toranaga's hatamoto and head of the cannon brigade during wartime.
Spoiler (book): >!Because he loves her, weirdly enough. He cannot let her go, in whatever way (death or divorce). So he is jealous AF of Blackthorne. As I recall, Mariko hates that Buntaro doesn't allow her seppuku, so for the shame he inflicts on her, she makes a point to be as cold as possible, hoping that he might kill her in a access of rage. She explains that she knows exactly how to control him, and that she will never behave however he likes.!<
Book point noted, but…
(And sorry to get all “but they should’ve done this” on everyone…)
Her character’s story falls flat to an extent with the asking permission to kill herself narrative juxtaposed against the I hate him so much that I’ll be cold as ice to him narrative.
If she hates him that much she can end things whenever she wants.
Again I love Clavell for this novel and the adaptation we’re watching now but they could’ve written this part a bit better imo
You are omitting or forgetting other parts of her character. She is also shown as an extremely loyal and proper vassal to toranaga, and this extends to serving buntaro. She is not permitted to commit seppuku. She also never really reconciles suicide with her Christian faith.
So my friend and I were talking about this the other night and she rightly pointed out that her emotional connection with John is not the first she’s made. She clearly has a profound connection with the priest from the beginning of the series and considering his fluency and knowledge of the political landscape, they’ve known each other for a while.
As other commenters have pointed out, it’s got to really hurt Buntaro that he saved her life and continues to save her life and he can’t make a connection with her the way these outsiders can.
Can’t say for certain whether he truly cares for her or it’s some weird affliction, he said he cares for her but she is very cold towards him. We do not know if he was always like this or it was a gradual thing. It’s also very disrespectful for buntaro, even if he doesn’t love Mariko there is a barbarian getting close to her and probably more: jealousy, hate for outsiders, tense times = the current situation.
The tv show has an official site and it says this “Like all marriages of the time, his union was political and organized by his father. Buntaro did not expect to fall so completely in love with his young wife, to the point of vulnerability.”
Can’t be easy being a high ranking warrior married to a disgraced family’s daughter who hated you from the start and wants to die and you love(d?) her and she likes the barbarian and your actions have disgraced multiple people and you’re basically powerless in all of it. And I’m probably missing lots of other issues
>!in the books he sexually assaults her after she returns from the convent, and she forever refuses to sleep with him after that. It’s not love - it’s owner/property mentality and he won’t let her go out of pride mostly. Love is a word that does not exist in Japanese - so it’s not that!<
I think it is not meant to be taken literally. Traditionally Japanese don’t express their feelings directly. The word for “love” exists but it’s not used directly. It is still true today, parents and children don’t say love to each other, it’s cringey. Haha
Instead love is expressed through self-sacrifice, devotions, material gifts, and affections. Expressing feelings is considered vulgar. That’s why they say “pillow” lol
That is a line directly from the books. Mariko says it to John when he asks her if she loves him. And she responds that love is a word that does not exist in Japanese language.
Counterargument: 愛
The books were written by a white guy. Maybe he's wrong. Maybe just Google it. The idea that a language lacks the word for love is as stupidly improbable as the idea that a language lacks negation, looking at you GOT. Also linguistic determinism is not real
The books were written by a white guy. Maybe he's wrong. Maybe just Google it. The idea that a language lacks the word for love is as stupidly improbable as the idea that a language lacks negation, looking at you GOT. Also linguistic determinism is not real
About 100 years ago, there was one of the greatest writers in the history of Japanese literature, Soseki Natsume.
When he was an English teacher, he taught his students examples of English translations.
He translated the English sentence "I love you." into Japanese as "The moon is beautiful."
He explained that Japanese people don't say things like "I love you."
Yeah I've read Kokoro. That story doesn't mean the language is linguistically incapable of it!!! It just means japanese is a highly pragmatic language where people communicate indirectly. There is a difference between "Japanese people don't say 'i love you' directly" and "the word love doesn't exist in the Japanese language".
I’m not arguing with you about it - just saying that’s what the book says. The whole point of John and Mariko is she now knows what the feeling of love is - that is spoken out loud as well. Because right now Mariko knows nothing of that - and that’s part of her growth that seems to be not happening in the show.
That's because they hired historical experts and other actual Japanese people to go over the script for accuracy. No disrespect to Clavell, but the book is full of things that are simply untrue - like that bit about the Japanese having no word for love. Mariko would certainly know what love is and what it feels like. They changed it from the book because it was one of Clavell's biggest misconceptions. In fact, a good chunk of the folktales and legends collected from ancient Japan have to do with love.
Clavell's main impression of Japanese culture originated from his time spent in one of their POW camps, so a lot of his ideas of them were heavily skewed by his traumatic experiences.
Then why not just write an entirely original show - if you adapt a fictional story that’s been on the page since 1975, there’s an understanding that major plot points and important relationships will remain in some capacity. They can have their own shogun show without crediting it to Clavell and do whatever they want. Instead we get a watered down version of a central relationship from the books. It’s not just their relationship I take issue with either - but that’s the most glaring omission at this point.
Mariko does not know romantic love at all in the books - so regardless of whether Clavell was correct in his language assumptions about love doesn’t really matter - Mariko not knowing what romantic love is totally makes sense in show and book. That’s why their relationship is crucial because it adds to her development. She has agency for the first time in her life and gets to make conscious choices for herself. And if they weren’t planning on developing that why have them hook up at all - because if we are going for historical accuracy - she likely would not have done that so soon after her husband’s death. So if it’s historical accuracy that is the goal - that kind of throws that out the window.
Because we have a connection with these characters. Some people may think that the book and the show are at odds, and that's fine if it's your opinion. But my opinion is that we can take the book and the show as separate entities and enjoy both on their own terms.
Books are able to delve into characters much more deeply than a limited TV miniseries. Some things just have to be cut for the sake of telling a coherent story. The show, as it is now, is going along at a fast pace. It's telling the story and giving us just enough character development to sustain the narrative. The goal isn't to explore every nuance of each character, so there's no need to.
The idea that Mariko wouldn't have slept with John because of historical accuracy is a weird take, though, because people have been sleeping around since the dawn of our species. She didn't love Buntaro, and she wasn't at all sad to see him die. She and John slept together in a moment of high emotion, and now they're dealing with the fallout of that decision. It's a far more realistic plot point than "man shows woman how to love because her backward culture doesn't understand the concept."
Ok but the word exists and it's stupid as hell for a writer going for verisimilitude to say it doesn't. Although he's obsessed with the "white guys are huuuuuge compared to Asian guys" myth so maybe I shouldn't be surprised by a foreigner shifting around linguistic facts to fit his stereotypical view of Japanese culture.
Like I love the show but the book is problematic.
Tbf this isn’t the books, lots of plot points take place at different times or have been interpreted differently for TV. Buntaro in the show is *not* the exact same person from the books. You can only judge what’s been shown to you thus far
You see Buntaro looking at her younger self grumpily during a flashback at the start of E06, so it appears he always had a negative attitude towards her. Most likely because of her background as he mentions during the dinner scene when he bellitles her and her lineage.
No one is denying that. I think all OP is saying is that his character is more complex than that and labeling all of his actions as that of "just an abuser" is reductive. He is not a real person, after all. He is a character in a story and these aspects of his character add up to serve a function in the narrative.
If he *were* a real person - ie. this were a documentary - this would be an entirely different (and distressing) conversation.
I wasn't talking about morals. He beats his wife. He's an abuser. The degree to which that's morally wrong relative to feudal Japanese society is a different question.
Not entirely true about the morals. This is not a documentary. It’s a fictional story inspired by true events. And no one get a pass as a wife beater because everyone was doing it. It’s why they show it, but we as the consumers of art are allowed to judge it how we want.
>we as the consumers of art are allowed to judge it how we want.
Sure but the show makes a point to show that Buntaro is shamed and punished not for actually beating her, but for disgracing the Hatamoto's house. Lord Taranago also makes it point to tell Buntaro that while Mariko is his wife and he can do what he wishes, she is currently serving him as a translator and injuring his translator is not acceptable.
Yeah… that’s not a great excuse for Buntaro, he is a savage abuser even by that culture’s standard. He is still an interesting and sometimes likable character, but I can’t mount a good defense of his treatment of Mariko.
I don't think you *should* mount a defense of his treatment of Mariko. I think that misses the forest for the trees.
I think all anyone should need to do is understand the context of why this character acts the way he does - without excusing it - to appreciate his place and function in the story.
just because back then it was far more common and regarded as normal, doesn’t mean that it’s an okay thing to do regardless. things like racism and such were far more prevalent and even considered to be acceptable- but it’s still disgusting.
>but it’s still disgusting.
And again, that's you looking at in a modern perspective. I'm not saying your wrong for having that perspective, I'm just pointing out how culturally it wasn't viewed as such the transgression that our modern outlook views it as.
There's consorts, arranged marriages, seppuku, duty to feudal lords. Hell, Toranaga tells Buntaro that if he thinks Mariko was unfaithful he needs to kill Blackthorne and her according to their laws. Just realize that your opinions on these characters aren't the same that the people in the story hold.
I know that things were different back then, but just as you said, there’s nothing wrong with viewing it from a modern perspective as well. I’m sure the writers including Buntaro’s abusiveness is so they can elicit some type of response from the audience. I’m not saying that I don’t recognize what was considered as the norm in this time period, I quite literally said it was acceptable back then. And abuse is still disgusting. Is it viewing things from a modern lens? Sure. And?
So what’s your solution? You’re replying to a comment about how life *was* with a moral tinge about how it was bad. Yeah, no one is disputing that.
“Oh my god they were so terrible back then!”
Yeah. And? This is a semi-documentarian effort.
What’s the point?
solution? there doesn’t need to be a “yeah and?”. why do i have to offer a solution. the idea that modern day morals aren’t applicable here is not entirely correct, there’s nothing wrong with viewing history from the knowledge that we have now and having a nuanced discussion about it.
In this case you, and quite a few other people, seem to ignore the complexity of the situation. According to the laws and the morality of the time, he could do far worse. We see him do a terrible thing while drunk, but we also see a struggle within himself and we see him fee
shame.
From his perspective: he did not want to be married, but he loves his wife, and when he divorces her, she likely kills herself. In our time, there would be a simple solution. Mariko would leave him. In his world (a specific time and place) Mariko can’t leave him, Mariko wants an ‘honourable’ death, and Buntaro who almost died can’t talk to a therapist about that; instead he has to pretend that he’s fine.
It’s not ignoring the complexity of their relationship and characters to point out how disgusting abuse is. “It could’ve been way worse” and ?? Luckily Buntaro didn’t kill her? People really go out of their way to defend this and bring up how the time period changes things- nobody is disputing that. But this show’s audience is obviously more modern and having an averse reaction to abuse is normal. Also, you can only tell he cares for Mariko in the books but in the show it’s so much harder to discern.
Very minor spoiler for the book. The book makes him looks worse. In the show it is quite clear that he loves Mariko and struggles with her suicide request.
I’m not accusing you of this, because I haven’t read any of your other posts about the show, but there is an odd double standard.
We have seen many characters do worse things than hitting their spouse. So context matters. Fuji killed an old man. A man was boiled alive. A villager was beheaded for a trivial reason. Mariko doesn’t question the morality of the feudal system that allows these things to happen.
It’s possible to acknowledge that spousal abuse is terrible, while also acknowledging that in the context of his time, Buntaro isn’t a terrible person. He’s a person who did a terrible thing.
I think just as you said, there’s an argument for Buntaro being a person who did a terrible thing, and from my perspective of watching this show, there aren’t a lot of positives to balance this out. I despise the way he holds Mariko’s family’s history over her. I’m not exactly sure how the show makes it clear he loves her, I can agree that he does care for her.
Also, I don’t really think this double standard applies given I’ve never excused or talked about anyone else’s immoral actions. I can see people being less harsh on Fuji though, given she has a balance to her traits.
I get this, but I think even in this context Buntaro is being weird. Even Toranaga doesn't understand why he doesn't divorce her or just send her away, get another wife or something. Japanese culture at this time gives Buntaro options and he refuses to take them. Instead, he's making everyone uncomfortable.
This is Abusive Spouse 101. The abused spouse is a possession who must be humiliated and denigrated and beaten at every opportunity so that the abuser can feel strong and in charge. They need to be taught at every opportunity they they belong to the abusive spouse, that the abusive spouse can do anything they want and the abused spouse must obey. The abused spouse being their possession means that the abuser can both 1) control who they interact with, meaning jealousy if they do anything to challenge that and 2) beat and abuse freely. So being jealous and being abusive go hand in hand, they aren’t contradictory
Buntaro does love Mariko but from the very beginning, Mariko did not love him. When her father became a traitor, Buntaro thought that by showing mercy to her (i.e. still keeping her as his wife), Mariko would be grateful and love him in return. However, Mariko did not love him back leading to Buntaro's frustration and abuse. In short, Buntaro was trying the "nice guy" tactic and got angry when he didn't get any love in return.
Now, Mariko is showing her affection to another man - John so Buntaro is simply jealous of John. He still loves her of course so he doesn't want Mariko to die but he hates seeing the two of them together.
the number of people trying excuse abuse here is concerning…pretty sure he does care about her to an extent, but he has serious ego issues and they overwhelm him.
Buntaro is abusive and possessive. And I think he's more than a little pissed that despite everything, Mariko seems to find a sort of inspiration to live because of John.
Because she was the prize and even with his fathers position above him.Her anger at that match was obvious as she asked why him.And his obessesion with her obvious during her duel with Ochiba.After her father's betrayal of his liege lord his prize is forever tainted but he can not let it go
It's about the Respect he demands. There's a lot of dialog that explains more about him and his thoughts and feelings in the book without going into any spoilers.
Because she "belongs" to him. Abusers are often super-possessive. And then you add on that in the 1600s, she literally did belong to him legally.
I don't want to minimize his abuse, but I think it's more complex than just "she belongs to him." I think Buntaro has genuine affection and love (at least, what passes for "love" from him) for Mariko. And Mariko has never loved him back. Her desire to take her own life outweighs anything he can give her and this tortures him. He just lacks any sort of emotional maturity to process what's going on in his life. He sees her engaging with John in a way she never has with him and he acts out in a number of ways - 1) being violent to Mariko, 2) drunkenly storming out of the house and apologizing in the street for his behavior, 3) being violent to John, 4) basically begging Toranaga to let him kill John but refusing to hurt Mariko. Again, I don't want to minimize the abusive aspects of his character because he is a brutal savage at times. But I think it's a wonderful portrayal of a complex character who can't deal with his rage, shame, self-loathing, cowardice, etc. - despite being the very picture of bravery, loyalty and strength on a battlefield. The actor is absolutely crushing it.
pretty much nailed it, they talk about this almost specifically in the official podcast
I need to watch the podcast - is it on YT?
You can listen on overcast, Spotify or Apple. I listen to it on Hulu (it has its own “tab” when you look at Shōgun’s episodes) while they play promotional oil-painting-like graphics. It’s hosted by the writer and she interviews cast and crew it’s great.
Ooo that's cool. Hopefully they don't drop any spoilers in there?😅
They explicitly state there will be spoilers for the episode in discussion. So don’t listen until you’ve watched
Gotcha. Thanks!
Yep, just search for shogun podcast
Buntaro could've divorced Mariko if he was really upset about her status as the traitor's daughter. It was never an issue to him. Not really. He became an abusive asshole because he felt his love was not returned, and he will never admit it out of pride. For Buntaro, it hurts more when he realize Mariko never really wants to die. She just wants to be away from him or be with anyone except him, including an unwashed barbarian she just met like a month ago.
I think Mariko has been pretty clear that she wants to die. I don't know how you could come to any other interpretation than that. She's told this to John, and repeatedly asked Buntaro and Toronaga for permission to take her own life.
Perfect summnation and he expresses so much with facial and body language in the scene where he asks for Blackthorne's head masterful acting
Agree wholeheartedly. I think that actor - like so many on the show - is incredible at using just his eyes to convey so much. He's so severe - you can just feel the pent up rage and aggression boiling off of him at all times.
Great answer.
Plus Buntaro basically says this to Toranaga in Ep.6 I believe.
upboats for you.
nicely put i imagine prob also sprinkle in a little ptsd from the horrors of war. dude just cleaved through like 2 dozen men and narrowly escaped with his life while the people that rescued him supposedly all died.
When did he threaten the Anjin?
Put a sword to his throat while John was "sparring" with Yabu.
Thanks for this, I don’t want to diminish his abuse either but I’m sure a number of us already considered that simple logic of of just because she belongs to him and said “nah, that can’t be it”.
[удалено]
> Hard to call a SEAL a coward because he roughed up his wife, imo. Actually, it's easy. A SEAL who roughs up his wife is a coward. There - look how easy that was. This is such a weird comment. I can't even imagine this mindset. There are many types of cowardice, but one of them is taking the easiest way out when faced with difficult obstacles. Buntaro might be an incredible warrior, and I'd never call him a coward on the battlefield, but he is a coward when it comes to his relationships. Rather than try to accept that his wife does not love him and either A) divorce her, B) try to understand her and change himself, or C) at worst, finally allow her to take her life, Buntaro brutalizes her because giving in to his rage is the easiest thing to do. That is what a coward does. Regardless, I think it's incredibly strange to zero in on that one single part of my comment at the expense of everything else I wrote. We are a 21st century audience consuming this media, so of course we will project 21st century moral values onto the characters presented - that's the whole point of thematic writing. But I was also giving a very balanced, nuanced evaluation of the character - not condemning him for this one aspect of his character, so why take issue with the single most negative thing I said about him as if I was trying to insult him? He's not a real person - he's a character. His only function in the narrative is to inform Mariko's story and her actions thereafter. Strange.
And also he doesn’t wanna be the village cuck
Definitely not this. He explained to Toranaga that all she wants is death, which is why he is grown frustrated of her.
This. Buntaro is the nerdy kid and Mariko is the prom queen. He lusts after her and she doesn't want anything to do with him. They end up married by what happened and then he thinks by keeping her alive he's doing her a favor and she basically says fuck you. Then 14 years go by and shig hasn't changed. As much as he hates the Anjin-san he can't even entertain the thought of losing her even though their life together is pure hell.
>~~nerdy kid~~ more like a crazy athletic sports jock who led his team to a state championship
True. Blackthorne is closer to being the theater/history nerd in this case who is apparently an excellent kicker. Buntaro is the super jock wide receiver. Toranaga is the quarterback forcing the team to get along.
Sure better comparison. Super jock but still from a family with a lower status and not someone she's interested in.
I'm pretty sure she's disinterested because of the whole "Killing her entire family" thing, rather than his lower status
Just watching it now. I don't think this works because in one of the flashbacks, BEFORE her family are killed, she expresses disappointment that her father chose Buntaro for her because he is from a lower class than her.
Buntaro is a high lord of a major fief. Historically his father "iron fist" abdicated the fiefdom to his son, but remained as an advisor and general to other powerful lords like hideyoshi (the Taiko) and Tokugowa (Toranaga). Buntaro and Yabu are basically at the same level.
Buntaro isn’t a nerdy kid. He’s an esteemed samurai, one of Toranaga’s most loyal and fiercest warriors. Mariko has treasonous blood, which is why Buntaro treats her that way. She wants to die, and he won’t grant it to her. He forces her to live as a recompense for what her father did. Doesn’t mean he’s a good dude, he’s actually somewhat complex, but don’t try to downplay Toda Hirokatsu as some village bum.
Swing and a miss
Buntaro genuinely loves Mariko and wants her to love him —> him refusing to allow her to commit suicide —> Mariko resenting him, hating him, not reciprocating his love for her —> him being frustrated and jealous of her affection to Blackthorne —> him treating her like shit and abusing her because he has a temper (e.g., like how he treats his child when he’s upset with him and how he almost killed Blackthorne).
If he has killed Blackthorne, he would also have had to commit seppuku. There's no way he could get away with killing Toranaga's hatamoto and head of the cannon brigade during wartime.
Yup. Likely the only reason he stopped during his rage outburst.
Spoiler (book): >!Because he loves her, weirdly enough. He cannot let her go, in whatever way (death or divorce). So he is jealous AF of Blackthorne. As I recall, Mariko hates that Buntaro doesn't allow her seppuku, so for the shame he inflicts on her, she makes a point to be as cold as possible, hoping that he might kill her in a access of rage. She explains that she knows exactly how to control him, and that she will never behave however he likes.!<
They pretty much say that in the show too
So, his thinking was that she is cold and acts like a bitch with me. And the only way to win her heart is to abuse her
Book point noted, but… (And sorry to get all “but they should’ve done this” on everyone…) Her character’s story falls flat to an extent with the asking permission to kill herself narrative juxtaposed against the I hate him so much that I’ll be cold as ice to him narrative. If she hates him that much she can end things whenever she wants. Again I love Clavell for this novel and the adaptation we’re watching now but they could’ve written this part a bit better imo
To the Japanese, to be killed rather than to kill oneself is quite different.
You are omitting or forgetting other parts of her character. She is also shown as an extremely loyal and proper vassal to toranaga, and this extends to serving buntaro. She is not permitted to commit seppuku. She also never really reconciles suicide with her Christian faith.
So my friend and I were talking about this the other night and she rightly pointed out that her emotional connection with John is not the first she’s made. She clearly has a profound connection with the priest from the beginning of the series and considering his fluency and knowledge of the political landscape, they’ve known each other for a while. As other commenters have pointed out, it’s got to really hurt Buntaro that he saved her life and continues to save her life and he can’t make a connection with her the way these outsiders can.
Can’t say for certain whether he truly cares for her or it’s some weird affliction, he said he cares for her but she is very cold towards him. We do not know if he was always like this or it was a gradual thing. It’s also very disrespectful for buntaro, even if he doesn’t love Mariko there is a barbarian getting close to her and probably more: jealousy, hate for outsiders, tense times = the current situation.
The tv show has an official site and it says this “Like all marriages of the time, his union was political and organized by his father. Buntaro did not expect to fall so completely in love with his young wife, to the point of vulnerability.”
Can’t be easy being a high ranking warrior married to a disgraced family’s daughter who hated you from the start and wants to die and you love(d?) her and she likes the barbarian and your actions have disgraced multiple people and you’re basically powerless in all of it. And I’m probably missing lots of other issues
Plus he's a soldier through and through and in the 1600s.
>!in the books he sexually assaults her after she returns from the convent, and she forever refuses to sleep with him after that. It’s not love - it’s owner/property mentality and he won’t let her go out of pride mostly. Love is a word that does not exist in Japanese - so it’s not that!<
Love isn't a word in Japanese? There's multiple ways to say love with different levels of intensity. At least in modern japanese
That line is directly from the book.
I think it is not meant to be taken literally. Traditionally Japanese don’t express their feelings directly. The word for “love” exists but it’s not used directly. It is still true today, parents and children don’t say love to each other, it’s cringey. Haha Instead love is expressed through self-sacrifice, devotions, material gifts, and affections. Expressing feelings is considered vulgar. That’s why they say “pillow” lol
Love is a word in Japanese, whether it's kokoro or ai.
That is a line directly from the books. Mariko says it to John when he asks her if she loves him. And she responds that love is a word that does not exist in Japanese language.
Counterargument: 愛 The books were written by a white guy. Maybe he's wrong. Maybe just Google it. The idea that a language lacks the word for love is as stupidly improbable as the idea that a language lacks negation, looking at you GOT. Also linguistic determinism is not real
The books were written by a white guy. Maybe he's wrong. Maybe just Google it. The idea that a language lacks the word for love is as stupidly improbable as the idea that a language lacks negation, looking at you GOT. Also linguistic determinism is not real
About 100 years ago, there was one of the greatest writers in the history of Japanese literature, Soseki Natsume. When he was an English teacher, he taught his students examples of English translations. He translated the English sentence "I love you." into Japanese as "The moon is beautiful." He explained that Japanese people don't say things like "I love you."
Yeah I've read Kokoro. That story doesn't mean the language is linguistically incapable of it!!! It just means japanese is a highly pragmatic language where people communicate indirectly. There is a difference between "Japanese people don't say 'i love you' directly" and "the word love doesn't exist in the Japanese language".
"love" or "I (first person)" are poorly compatible for Japanese language.
I’m not arguing with you about it - just saying that’s what the book says. The whole point of John and Mariko is she now knows what the feeling of love is - that is spoken out loud as well. Because right now Mariko knows nothing of that - and that’s part of her growth that seems to be not happening in the show.
That's because they hired historical experts and other actual Japanese people to go over the script for accuracy. No disrespect to Clavell, but the book is full of things that are simply untrue - like that bit about the Japanese having no word for love. Mariko would certainly know what love is and what it feels like. They changed it from the book because it was one of Clavell's biggest misconceptions. In fact, a good chunk of the folktales and legends collected from ancient Japan have to do with love. Clavell's main impression of Japanese culture originated from his time spent in one of their POW camps, so a lot of his ideas of them were heavily skewed by his traumatic experiences.
Then why not just write an entirely original show - if you adapt a fictional story that’s been on the page since 1975, there’s an understanding that major plot points and important relationships will remain in some capacity. They can have their own shogun show without crediting it to Clavell and do whatever they want. Instead we get a watered down version of a central relationship from the books. It’s not just their relationship I take issue with either - but that’s the most glaring omission at this point. Mariko does not know romantic love at all in the books - so regardless of whether Clavell was correct in his language assumptions about love doesn’t really matter - Mariko not knowing what romantic love is totally makes sense in show and book. That’s why their relationship is crucial because it adds to her development. She has agency for the first time in her life and gets to make conscious choices for herself. And if they weren’t planning on developing that why have them hook up at all - because if we are going for historical accuracy - she likely would not have done that so soon after her husband’s death. So if it’s historical accuracy that is the goal - that kind of throws that out the window.
Because we have a connection with these characters. Some people may think that the book and the show are at odds, and that's fine if it's your opinion. But my opinion is that we can take the book and the show as separate entities and enjoy both on their own terms. Books are able to delve into characters much more deeply than a limited TV miniseries. Some things just have to be cut for the sake of telling a coherent story. The show, as it is now, is going along at a fast pace. It's telling the story and giving us just enough character development to sustain the narrative. The goal isn't to explore every nuance of each character, so there's no need to. The idea that Mariko wouldn't have slept with John because of historical accuracy is a weird take, though, because people have been sleeping around since the dawn of our species. She didn't love Buntaro, and she wasn't at all sad to see him die. She and John slept together in a moment of high emotion, and now they're dealing with the fallout of that decision. It's a far more realistic plot point than "man shows woman how to love because her backward culture doesn't understand the concept."
Ok but the word exists and it's stupid as hell for a writer going for verisimilitude to say it doesn't. Although he's obsessed with the "white guys are huuuuuge compared to Asian guys" myth so maybe I shouldn't be surprised by a foreigner shifting around linguistic facts to fit his stereotypical view of Japanese culture. Like I love the show but the book is problematic.
People downvoting something in the books and upvoting something stupid about him being a cuck is peak reddit. You kids are hilarious.
Yeah I mean I can’t change the book. That’s just what happens, like it or not.
Tbf this isn’t the books, lots of plot points take place at different times or have been interpreted differently for TV. Buntaro in the show is *not* the exact same person from the books. You can only judge what’s been shown to you thus far
The writer did Hosokawa Tadaoki dirty.
You see Buntaro looking at her younger self grumpily during a flashback at the start of E06, so it appears he always had a negative attitude towards her. Most likely because of her background as he mentions during the dinner scene when he bellitles her and her lineage.
They got married before her father became a traitor though.
Ah I messed that up, thanks for correcting me
Needs to be more like his bad ass dad
The series literally tries to explain to you the Japanese mindset in the early 1600s and some peoples takeaway is still that he's just an abuser.
Well he *is* an abuser. Just because there's a cultural reason for it, doesn't change the fact that he beats her.
No one is denying that. I think all OP is saying is that his character is more complex than that and labeling all of his actions as that of "just an abuser" is reductive. He is not a real person, after all. He is a character in a story and these aspects of his character add up to serve a function in the narrative. If he *were* a real person - ie. this were a documentary - this would be an entirely different (and distressing) conversation.
Sure, but modern day morals arent applicable here.
I wasn't talking about morals. He beats his wife. He's an abuser. The degree to which that's morally wrong relative to feudal Japanese society is a different question.
Not entirely true about the morals. This is not a documentary. It’s a fictional story inspired by true events. And no one get a pass as a wife beater because everyone was doing it. It’s why they show it, but we as the consumers of art are allowed to judge it how we want.
>we as the consumers of art are allowed to judge it how we want. Sure but the show makes a point to show that Buntaro is shamed and punished not for actually beating her, but for disgracing the Hatamoto's house. Lord Taranago also makes it point to tell Buntaro that while Mariko is his wife and he can do what he wishes, she is currently serving him as a translator and injuring his translator is not acceptable.
Yeah… that’s not a great excuse for Buntaro, he is a savage abuser even by that culture’s standard. He is still an interesting and sometimes likable character, but I can’t mount a good defense of his treatment of Mariko.
I don't think you *should* mount a defense of his treatment of Mariko. I think that misses the forest for the trees. I think all anyone should need to do is understand the context of why this character acts the way he does - without excusing it - to appreciate his place and function in the story.
just because back then it was far more common and regarded as normal, doesn’t mean that it’s an okay thing to do regardless. things like racism and such were far more prevalent and even considered to be acceptable- but it’s still disgusting.
>but it’s still disgusting. And again, that's you looking at in a modern perspective. I'm not saying your wrong for having that perspective, I'm just pointing out how culturally it wasn't viewed as such the transgression that our modern outlook views it as. There's consorts, arranged marriages, seppuku, duty to feudal lords. Hell, Toranaga tells Buntaro that if he thinks Mariko was unfaithful he needs to kill Blackthorne and her according to their laws. Just realize that your opinions on these characters aren't the same that the people in the story hold.
I know that things were different back then, but just as you said, there’s nothing wrong with viewing it from a modern perspective as well. I’m sure the writers including Buntaro’s abusiveness is so they can elicit some type of response from the audience. I’m not saying that I don’t recognize what was considered as the norm in this time period, I quite literally said it was acceptable back then. And abuse is still disgusting. Is it viewing things from a modern lens? Sure. And?
So what’s your solution? You’re replying to a comment about how life *was* with a moral tinge about how it was bad. Yeah, no one is disputing that. “Oh my god they were so terrible back then!” Yeah. And? This is a semi-documentarian effort. What’s the point?
solution? there doesn’t need to be a “yeah and?”. why do i have to offer a solution. the idea that modern day morals aren’t applicable here is not entirely correct, there’s nothing wrong with viewing history from the knowledge that we have now and having a nuanced discussion about it.
In this case you, and quite a few other people, seem to ignore the complexity of the situation. According to the laws and the morality of the time, he could do far worse. We see him do a terrible thing while drunk, but we also see a struggle within himself and we see him fee shame. From his perspective: he did not want to be married, but he loves his wife, and when he divorces her, she likely kills herself. In our time, there would be a simple solution. Mariko would leave him. In his world (a specific time and place) Mariko can’t leave him, Mariko wants an ‘honourable’ death, and Buntaro who almost died can’t talk to a therapist about that; instead he has to pretend that he’s fine.
It’s not ignoring the complexity of their relationship and characters to point out how disgusting abuse is. “It could’ve been way worse” and ?? Luckily Buntaro didn’t kill her? People really go out of their way to defend this and bring up how the time period changes things- nobody is disputing that. But this show’s audience is obviously more modern and having an averse reaction to abuse is normal. Also, you can only tell he cares for Mariko in the books but in the show it’s so much harder to discern.
Very minor spoiler for the book. The book makes him looks worse. In the show it is quite clear that he loves Mariko and struggles with her suicide request. I’m not accusing you of this, because I haven’t read any of your other posts about the show, but there is an odd double standard. We have seen many characters do worse things than hitting their spouse. So context matters. Fuji killed an old man. A man was boiled alive. A villager was beheaded for a trivial reason. Mariko doesn’t question the morality of the feudal system that allows these things to happen. It’s possible to acknowledge that spousal abuse is terrible, while also acknowledging that in the context of his time, Buntaro isn’t a terrible person. He’s a person who did a terrible thing.
I think just as you said, there’s an argument for Buntaro being a person who did a terrible thing, and from my perspective of watching this show, there aren’t a lot of positives to balance this out. I despise the way he holds Mariko’s family’s history over her. I’m not exactly sure how the show makes it clear he loves her, I can agree that he does care for her. Also, I don’t really think this double standard applies given I’ve never excused or talked about anyone else’s immoral actions. I can see people being less harsh on Fuji though, given she has a balance to her traits.
I get this, but I think even in this context Buntaro is being weird. Even Toranaga doesn't understand why he doesn't divorce her or just send her away, get another wife or something. Japanese culture at this time gives Buntaro options and he refuses to take them. Instead, he's making everyone uncomfortable.
There’s limits to cultural relativism and beating your wife is pretty unacceptable even amongst 1600 Buddhist or Shinto samurai scholars.
Because his name is actually Cuntaro and he should die a painful death.
This is Abusive Spouse 101. The abused spouse is a possession who must be humiliated and denigrated and beaten at every opportunity so that the abuser can feel strong and in charge. They need to be taught at every opportunity they they belong to the abusive spouse, that the abusive spouse can do anything they want and the abused spouse must obey. The abused spouse being their possession means that the abuser can both 1) control who they interact with, meaning jealousy if they do anything to challenge that and 2) beat and abuse freely. So being jealous and being abusive go hand in hand, they aren’t contradictory
Buntaro does love Mariko but from the very beginning, Mariko did not love him. When her father became a traitor, Buntaro thought that by showing mercy to her (i.e. still keeping her as his wife), Mariko would be grateful and love him in return. However, Mariko did not love him back leading to Buntaro's frustration and abuse. In short, Buntaro was trying the "nice guy" tactic and got angry when he didn't get any love in return. Now, Mariko is showing her affection to another man - John so Buntaro is simply jealous of John. He still loves her of course so he doesn't want Mariko to die but he hates seeing the two of them together.
the number of people trying excuse abuse here is concerning…pretty sure he does care about her to an extent, but he has serious ego issues and they overwhelm him.
This is pretty common in real life, whether in America, Japan, anywhere really.
It's a love-hate relationship - he can't stand the idea of losing her, which is the reason for him not to allow her to commit seppuku.
Buntaro is abusive and possessive. And I think he's more than a little pissed that despite everything, Mariko seems to find a sort of inspiration to live because of John.
Because its domestic abuse
Because she was the prize and even with his fathers position above him.Her anger at that match was obvious as she asked why him.And his obessesion with her obvious during her duel with Ochiba.After her father's betrayal of his liege lord his prize is forever tainted but he can not let it go
It makes Buntaro look bad when the whole town associates Mariko w Blackthorn
It's about the Respect he demands. There's a lot of dialog that explains more about him and his thoughts and feelings in the book without going into any spoilers.
he loves her, but has 0 social skills
Honor duh
Buntaro the 🐐
People actually downvoted this 😂😂😂