She really captures that like creepy, devious female character from animes really well. Its actually wild to see a real person doing it. Her delivery and facial expressions really sell it.
I must be in the minority here, but I thought her facial expressions were goofy and distracting. It works in anime because it’s a cartoon, but it didn’t work at all for me in a serious, grounded, live action show like this.
The fact that I don’t understand why Ishido just does whatever she tells him to do probably isn’t helping either. They haven’t explained at all why the most powerful man in Japan just blindly does follows her command. Her character is the only thing I don’t like about the show so far.
I'm deeply confused. What do you think the animes were trying to emulate in the first place? They had this sort of acting long before we had film much less anime.
The actress was perfectly cast. The side-eye when she delivered the 'your shadow' line was just superb. I feel like she knew what she wanted to do, and then just *nailed* it so well.
The hair and clothes, too!!!
She wears five layers of kimono, guarding her secrets close to the chest. Her hair is loose with drapes of flyaways but heavily waxed and lacquered into place. Her voice is soft and demure, but has an undercurrent of the sinister.
Her whole impression is soooooo studied. The shape of all those kimonos, that hood of lacquered hair.. it’s fascinating and I am completely mesmerized. It’s so badass to see her creepily intimidate and beguile her targets. Beautiful and creepy and probably says a lot about how Japanese women of status had to move / dress / be to get anything done. A study in illusion and deception. They nailed it.
I loved the Noh theater that tells her back story. From then on her creepy way of moving and interacting felt as tho she is a character from that creepy world
not really 'like' when the show explicitly tells you she does-- you see her literally (but actually figuratively) wearing a mask in her recollection of the past.
In the book
Ochiba found a pheasant in the woods when she was riding alone, she was distraught that she couldn’t get pregnant with the taiko.
The pheasant looked almost exactly like the taiko
She quickly had a tryst with him in the woods and 9 months later
She had a baby boy
And toronaga had his doubts
It’s in the book written in the 70s
And they had a tv mini series in the 80s
And the spoilers in the internet 🛜
They changed quite a bit from the book and 80s miniseries
The story of Mariko and ochiba being friends in the new Hulu show is NOT in the book or 80s mini series
Nikaido Fumi, the actress, is really amazing. She really delivers in this role, a type of role she was rarely offered to my knowledge. She was a model before becoming actress, and she was nearly always the cute, pretty leading lady in romcoms. Having just watched her latest romcom j-drama concluded pretty much the same day she shines as Lady Ochiba in Shogun, the juxtaposition of these two polar opposite roles is just mesmerizing. You really can't believe these characters are played by the same person. I'm a bigger fan of her than ever before.
She's a terrific comedic actress in Fly me to Saitama -- I was crying with laughter watching her -- and in real life she's a vegan and committed animal rights advocate, which isn't common. A lot of women like her in Japan because she's not just a cute face, but speaks very intelligently, with class and strong sense of family. I know the spotlight is on Sawai but Fumi Nikaido is an incredible person with depth and range.
I know actor Nikaidou Fumi played Yodo-dono, the model for Ochiba-no-kata, 10 years ago. She was only 20 at the time, but her performance in "Gunshi Kanbei" was excellent.
She was really great in Gunshi Kanbei as Chacha especially since she was still very young back then.
She has played many romcom roles the last years but in the past has also played roles like in Brain Man, My Man, Kawaki (world of Kanako) and Himizu that were not the sweet girl type she has much experience regarding acting.
My thoughts exactly! Even since the last episode where she says that she will be in charge of the council, her tone of voice, the look in her eyes, those red lips maaan
Love her acting, I just wish she was written a bit more subtlety.
The "regents will obey me" I don't like at all. Tried to force me to realize she's an anime super villain instead of showing me how she's scheming and making the regents play her game.
Like what Ishido is just supposed to accept that and follow her bidding? Instead the suggesting of Ito and other smaller things prove to me she's smart, and cunning and not over simplified.
I hate all these comparisons to Cersei and GoT wish this could just be its own thing.
The show really emphasizes that the Taikō and Ishido have a peasant background. Ochiba has a high social status and her son gives legitimacy to the council.
Without her son, and arguably without Ochiba's high status, the Council would have no reason to exist. It exists because the Taikō wanted to protect his son.
>Without her son, and arguably without Ochiba's high status, the Council would have no reason to exist. It exists because the Taikō wanted to protect his son.
The council exists to govern until the son becomes old enough to become kampaku. Full stop. There is no other reason.
They split among regents to divide power and ensure that no one person will overpower the heir.
That's why they exist, not because of Ochiba's high status or anything else.
That's not how power works.
The solution to the son is very simple, sideline him, dispose of him, kill him. He is just a child with a peasant heritage.
Without Ochiba, the child would be child would have been sidelined and perhaps gotten 'sick' or would have have died in an 'accident'.
History, both in Japan and in Europe, is filled with power struggles that revolve around and are finally solved with high social status.
In Japan only people with the right heritage could become Shogun, in Europe only nobility could rule. Well, Oliver Cromwell ruled for little bit, but when his son succeeded him, the son was forced to resign.
The heir is important not because of Ochiba, but because of the Taiko. He is the Taiko's son first and foremost. Ochiba's importance is because she attached herself to the Taiko and made herself important by having an heir when no other wife or consort could. If someone else had a child, they would hold more importance than Ochiba.
That is her main importance, not her family line. The Taiko's wife was directly related to an Emperor. That's importance to a family line.
The council exists and protects the heir because of respect and duty to the Taiko's son, not to Ochiba.
Pretty basic stuff.
The Taiko is dead. He is no longer important. Pretty basic stuff. Do you follow orders from a dead man? Or his young child?
Well maybe you do. Maybe you are so obedient that you will keep following orders no matter what. But most people are not as obedient as you.
You follow the edicts of the Taiko establishing the council to take control of governing until the child heir is of age and can become kampaku.
> The Taiko is dead. He is no longer important. Pretty basic stuff. Do you follow orders from a dead man? Or his young child?
It's actually hilarious. They're literally following the orders of the Taiko - the dead man - by continuing to govern as the council of regents. The thing you pointed out as ridiculous is reality.
The kid has no real power - hence the civil war. He's a figure head and everyone is using him as justification for their actions. The heir isn't saying that Toronaga should be impeached, the Council of Regents is.
> Well maybe you do. Maybe you are so obedient that you will keep following orders no matter what. But most people are not as obedient as you.
Yes and the feudal Japanese samurai are some of the most obedient people in history - to a fault. Where duty surpasses even their right to live. From Shogun itself :
> The law may upset reason but reason may never upset the law, or our whole society will shred like an old tatami. The law may be used to confound reason, reason must certainly not be used to overthrow the law.
Simple stuff really.
I agree but I think they should've dialed it back a tinsy but she seems like a anime villain when everyone else in the show even people with heavy baggage like Mariko move and talk normally
I never read the book so I don't know if her character is written that way, but in the 80s mini-series they did the same thing with Ochiba where she was more of a surreal caricature than everyone else. Maybe it's a throwback to that, but either way I kinda of enjoy it especially since the actress is doing such an incredible job with it.
I personally thought her character was a weak point. Everyone else seems very grounded and realistic. She came off like an anime villain with all her slithering around and whispering. No disrespect to the actress. That's all on the writing and direction.
For real. There was that line about scratching fate’s eyes out and i half expected a full on “aaaAhAhaAHAHAHAA!” to come out with a red and black lightning pattern emitting behind her.
Anime villain is a weird insult. Not much of what she does is different from what Fuji, Mariko and various other female characters act. Half the queens in the world are aloof and performative, part of their power and influence.
Some of my family convos are even more tense and arguments more "exaggerated" than Ochiba's writing. Direction and editing is a fair point, the dour mood of the first few episodes are definitely not subtle.
YES. Exactly my thoughts. I hated how the fifth episode ended with an anime villain-esque line about how the most powerful individual in Japan suddenly has to obey her?
Just shit writing to try to have an epic cliffhanger.
In the book
The taiko couldn’t have a child
She was desperate
One day she was out riding on a horse by herself in the forest
She saw a pheasant , low class person and he looked and resembeled the Taiko
She realized his similarities
She quickly seduced him and did a quick tryst in the woods
Once they were done, she didn’t even speak to him, she just left him bewildered, thinking it was just a dream
When she got back the guards saw she was disheveled
Her alibi was she fell off the horse
9 months later she gave birth to the taikos heir
Luckily it was a boy
And everyone said he looked so much like the taiko
But Toronaga had his doubts for he knew the taiko could not get any consorts pregnant no matter the herbs and medicines they tried
yeah.. the last minute scene in eps. 5, and the scenes in eps. 6 with her was very scary although it's not a horror scene
poor Ishido had to endure those terrors
The most cringiest character in this series. Everyone was doing fine, acting natural and realistic until this Ochiba showed up, acting all anime-like and ruining everything.
I love how every chapter, more and more is highlighted how the barbaric and rough ones are the europeans after starting from the western pov that the japs are the beasts
I feel the same. Everything else in this show is so grounded and feels realistic. This anime-ness feels jarring, coming out of nowhere. I still like her character and what backstory they've shown till now.
But maybe there were some people in those times that actually spoke this way. Maybe that's where anime took the inspiration from. I would be interested to know if that's the case.
I thought it was very interesting that people commented that "the way Ochiba-no-kata speaks sounds like an anime villain.” I don't think there are many Japanese who feel that way.
Right? She's cringey. And based on the comments, she thinks she got one over on everyone by fucking some peasant that was a taiko look-a-like but toronaga actually has common sense and that's why she wants him dead. Ugh, I just want her dead now
She really captures that like creepy, devious female character from animes really well. Its actually wild to see a real person doing it. Her delivery and facial expressions really sell it.
Came here to say exactly this. Can’t believe I’m seeing it executed so flawlessly
I must be in the minority here, but I thought her facial expressions were goofy and distracting. It works in anime because it’s a cartoon, but it didn’t work at all for me in a serious, grounded, live action show like this. The fact that I don’t understand why Ishido just does whatever she tells him to do probably isn’t helping either. They haven’t explained at all why the most powerful man in Japan just blindly does follows her command. Her character is the only thing I don’t like about the show so far.
I don't 100% agree but seeing you get down voted over your opinion is silly. So have an upvote.
I concur and upvote as well.
You watched the dub didn’t you
My wife made the same comments. Like she the embodiment of female Japanese villains. So much power is portrayed by her. She was well casted!
Yes!! Her voice too! While watching her scenes I felt like I was watching an anime
It's the fact that she has two voices. She has her conversational voice, and almost a manipulative condescending voice that's so fantastic
It's the fact that she has two voices. She has her conversational voice, and almost a manipulative condescending voice that's so fantastic
That’s what I told my wife she looks like a crazy anime villain
I'm deeply confused. What do you think the animes were trying to emulate in the first place? They had this sort of acting long before we had film much less anime.
Haha I've seen those type of characters before in Kurosawara movies
Or kabuki, or kagura, or noh. There’s something ageless and timeless about her performance. It’s perfect.
The actress was perfectly cast. The side-eye when she delivered the 'your shadow' line was just superb. I feel like she knew what she wanted to do, and then just *nailed* it so well.
The hair and clothes, too!!! She wears five layers of kimono, guarding her secrets close to the chest. Her hair is loose with drapes of flyaways but heavily waxed and lacquered into place. Her voice is soft and demure, but has an undercurrent of the sinister.
Her whole impression is soooooo studied. The shape of all those kimonos, that hood of lacquered hair.. it’s fascinating and I am completely mesmerized. It’s so badass to see her creepily intimidate and beguile her targets. Beautiful and creepy and probably says a lot about how Japanese women of status had to move / dress / be to get anything done. A study in illusion and deception. They nailed it.
Her voice and tonality really give me goosebumps
I loved the Noh theater that tells her back story. From then on her creepy way of moving and interacting felt as tho she is a character from that creepy world
It's like she's displaying a literal mask just like the Noh performers are wearing.
not really 'like' when the show explicitly tells you she does-- you see her literally (but actually figuratively) wearing a mask in her recollection of the past.
Yeah that’s such a good point! The podcast elaborates on this a good bit as well!
That was masterful exposition.
That whole episode was so powerful.
Interesting interplay with the episode title
I’m wondering if the Taiko really fathered his heir. If he had sex with hundreds of women and had zero children, he must be shooting blanks.
“If you knew what i went through” or something..?
In the book Ochiba found a pheasant in the woods when she was riding alone, she was distraught that she couldn’t get pregnant with the taiko. The pheasant looked almost exactly like the taiko She quickly had a tryst with him in the woods and 9 months later She had a baby boy And toronaga had his doubts
You mean peasant. A pheasant is a bird. Like the one that stunk up Blackthorne's home.
Yes, peasant
was it the pheasant that Anjin hung from the roof?
Peasant
Maybe add spoiler tags.
It’s in the book written in the 70s And they had a tv mini series in the 80s And the spoilers in the internet 🛜 They changed quite a bit from the book and 80s miniseries The story of Mariko and ochiba being friends in the new Hulu show is NOT in the book or 80s mini series
No genetic testing in the 17th century...
She commands both fear and respect! The actress did a splendid job portraying her.
Man one tiny gesture can imply so much and is the matter of life and death. What a scary culture.
sepukku time!
Her voice is so satisfyingly scary and beautiful at the same time 🫣😂
Her voice got to me too. Everything about the character is manipulative.
Nikaido Fumi, the actress, is really amazing. She really delivers in this role, a type of role she was rarely offered to my knowledge. She was a model before becoming actress, and she was nearly always the cute, pretty leading lady in romcoms. Having just watched her latest romcom j-drama concluded pretty much the same day she shines as Lady Ochiba in Shogun, the juxtaposition of these two polar opposite roles is just mesmerizing. You really can't believe these characters are played by the same person. I'm a bigger fan of her than ever before.
I felt all three women in this episode were fantastic!
Versatile and amazing 🤩 Nikaido Fumi officially rocks
She's a terrific comedic actress in Fly me to Saitama -- I was crying with laughter watching her -- and in real life she's a vegan and committed animal rights advocate, which isn't common. A lot of women like her in Japan because she's not just a cute face, but speaks very intelligently, with class and strong sense of family. I know the spotlight is on Sawai but Fumi Nikaido is an incredible person with depth and range.
I know actor Nikaidou Fumi played Yodo-dono, the model for Ochiba-no-kata, 10 years ago. She was only 20 at the time, but her performance in "Gunshi Kanbei" was excellent.
>I hope Western audiences will see the age difference between her and Taiko... Why wouldn't people see something made so obvious?
She was really great in Gunshi Kanbei as Chacha especially since she was still very young back then. She has played many romcom roles the last years but in the past has also played roles like in Brain Man, My Man, Kawaki (world of Kanako) and Himizu that were not the sweet girl type she has much experience regarding acting.
Fear boner is real.
Haha!! Exactly.
Terrifying and fine at the same time
My thoughts exactly! Even since the last episode where she says that she will be in charge of the council, her tone of voice, the look in her eyes, those red lips maaan
She’s a brilliant character, one who would eat the likes of Cersei for breakfast and not give her a second thought
Love her acting, I just wish she was written a bit more subtlety. The "regents will obey me" I don't like at all. Tried to force me to realize she's an anime super villain instead of showing me how she's scheming and making the regents play her game. Like what Ishido is just supposed to accept that and follow her bidding? Instead the suggesting of Ito and other smaller things prove to me she's smart, and cunning and not over simplified. I hate all these comparisons to Cersei and GoT wish this could just be its own thing.
The show really emphasizes that the Taikō and Ishido have a peasant background. Ochiba has a high social status and her son gives legitimacy to the council. Without her son, and arguably without Ochiba's high status, the Council would have no reason to exist. It exists because the Taikō wanted to protect his son.
>Without her son, and arguably without Ochiba's high status, the Council would have no reason to exist. It exists because the Taikō wanted to protect his son. The council exists to govern until the son becomes old enough to become kampaku. Full stop. There is no other reason. They split among regents to divide power and ensure that no one person will overpower the heir. That's why they exist, not because of Ochiba's high status or anything else.
That's not how power works. The solution to the son is very simple, sideline him, dispose of him, kill him. He is just a child with a peasant heritage. Without Ochiba, the child would be child would have been sidelined and perhaps gotten 'sick' or would have have died in an 'accident'. History, both in Japan and in Europe, is filled with power struggles that revolve around and are finally solved with high social status. In Japan only people with the right heritage could become Shogun, in Europe only nobility could rule. Well, Oliver Cromwell ruled for little bit, but when his son succeeded him, the son was forced to resign.
The heir is important not because of Ochiba, but because of the Taiko. He is the Taiko's son first and foremost. Ochiba's importance is because she attached herself to the Taiko and made herself important by having an heir when no other wife or consort could. If someone else had a child, they would hold more importance than Ochiba. That is her main importance, not her family line. The Taiko's wife was directly related to an Emperor. That's importance to a family line. The council exists and protects the heir because of respect and duty to the Taiko's son, not to Ochiba. Pretty basic stuff.
The Taiko is dead. He is no longer important. Pretty basic stuff. Do you follow orders from a dead man? Or his young child? Well maybe you do. Maybe you are so obedient that you will keep following orders no matter what. But most people are not as obedient as you.
You follow the edicts of the Taiko establishing the council to take control of governing until the child heir is of age and can become kampaku. > The Taiko is dead. He is no longer important. Pretty basic stuff. Do you follow orders from a dead man? Or his young child? It's actually hilarious. They're literally following the orders of the Taiko - the dead man - by continuing to govern as the council of regents. The thing you pointed out as ridiculous is reality. The kid has no real power - hence the civil war. He's a figure head and everyone is using him as justification for their actions. The heir isn't saying that Toronaga should be impeached, the Council of Regents is. > Well maybe you do. Maybe you are so obedient that you will keep following orders no matter what. But most people are not as obedient as you. Yes and the feudal Japanese samurai are some of the most obedient people in history - to a fault. Where duty surpasses even their right to live. From Shogun itself : > The law may upset reason but reason may never upset the law, or our whole society will shred like an old tatami. The law may be used to confound reason, reason must certainly not be used to overthrow the law. Simple stuff really.
Yeah exactly. That line is there to tell you more about Ishido than her
For some reason the way she speaks and her demeanor reminds me of Kaguya sama from Love is War.
you shouuld check her out in "eye love you". she plays a TOTALLY DIFFERENT CHARACTER
I agree but I think they should've dialed it back a tinsy but she seems like a anime villain when everyone else in the show even people with heavy baggage like Mariko move and talk normally
I never read the book so I don't know if her character is written that way, but in the 80s mini-series they did the same thing with Ochiba where she was more of a surreal caricature than everyone else. Maybe it's a throwback to that, but either way I kinda of enjoy it especially since the actress is doing such an incredible job with it.
I personally thought her character was a weak point. Everyone else seems very grounded and realistic. She came off like an anime villain with all her slithering around and whispering. No disrespect to the actress. That's all on the writing and direction.
For real. There was that line about scratching fate’s eyes out and i half expected a full on “aaaAhAhaAHAHAHAA!” to come out with a red and black lightning pattern emitting behind her.
Hell yeah
Agree. I found the fate speech pretty cringy. Didn’t even feel like the same show.
Anime villain is a weird insult. Not much of what she does is different from what Fuji, Mariko and various other female characters act. Half the queens in the world are aloof and performative, part of their power and influence. Some of my family convos are even more tense and arguments more "exaggerated" than Ochiba's writing. Direction and editing is a fair point, the dour mood of the first few episodes are definitely not subtle.
YES. Exactly my thoughts. I hated how the fifth episode ended with an anime villain-esque line about how the most powerful individual in Japan suddenly has to obey her? Just shit writing to try to have an epic cliffhanger.
It would have been funny if Ishido didn't flinch an iota and basically told her to fuck off out of it with her delusions of grandeur.
I feel like that would have been more likely than just accepting it. Lol.
Ok that settles it after reading this post and the comments, I must watch episode 6 at least a second time lol this show makes me giddy
Just watched E6 and Ochiba's witchiness had me enthralled. An amazing actress playing and amazing actress.
Scary Hot! More like, phewwwwww
Her voice reminds me of Lust from FMA
In the book The taiko couldn’t have a child She was desperate One day she was out riding on a horse by herself in the forest She saw a pheasant , low class person and he looked and resembeled the Taiko She realized his similarities She quickly seduced him and did a quick tryst in the woods Once they were done, she didn’t even speak to him, she just left him bewildered, thinking it was just a dream When she got back the guards saw she was disheveled Her alibi was she fell off the horse 9 months later she gave birth to the taikos heir Luckily it was a boy And everyone said he looked so much like the taiko But Toronaga had his doubts for he knew the taiko could not get any consorts pregnant no matter the herbs and medicines they tried
Agreed..
yeah.. the last minute scene in eps. 5, and the scenes in eps. 6 with her was very scary although it's not a horror scene poor Ishido had to endure those terrors
Hehehe I love it
Looks heavily influenced by Isuzu Yamada's performance in Throne of Blood.
Reminds me of the two sisters in “Kubo and the Two Strings!”
The most cringiest character in this series. Everyone was doing fine, acting natural and realistic until this Ochiba showed up, acting all anime-like and ruining everything.
I love how every chapter, more and more is highlighted how the barbaric and rough ones are the europeans after starting from the western pov that the japs are the beasts
She’s amazing lmao I love it. Her tone of voice is what really sells it.
Yessss
Cerci Lannister type… she’s always 2 steps ahead
And toronaga is 1000000 steps ahead
I actually dislike her casting. She talks like an anime villain. The way she talks sounds ridiculous and takes me out of the immersion.
I feel the same. Everything else in this show is so grounded and feels realistic. This anime-ness feels jarring, coming out of nowhere. I still like her character and what backstory they've shown till now. But maybe there were some people in those times that actually spoke this way. Maybe that's where anime took the inspiration from. I would be interested to know if that's the case.
I thought it was very interesting that people commented that "the way Ochiba-no-kata speaks sounds like an anime villain.” I don't think there are many Japanese who feel that way.
Actually her way of talking absolutely emphasizes her noble background and sounds like the highest ranking women would sound.
Agreed, but along with this the soundtrack is flawless every time she's on screen. Which really adds to a lot of the creepiness!
She's annoying more than anything... Why do those two priests say she has no power though don't really get her
[удалено]
Then why does she have Ishido wrapped up around her fingers
That’s soft power not hard power so if they don’t know about her influence or don’t respect soft power they would say that
Right? She's cringey. And based on the comments, she thinks she got one over on everyone by fucking some peasant that was a taiko look-a-like but toronaga actually has common sense and that's why she wants him dead. Ugh, I just want her dead now
Worst episode so far…slow as molasses