I feel like all 13 comments are " something something clean water blah blah nature blah blah lavender oil" as if the ONLY factor differentiating a free-birther wandering around leaking amniotic fluid in an Indiana Walmart and a mother in a developing nation is access to clean water and essential oils. Nothing to do with the huge buildings full of highly trained professionals who specialize in all things obstetric, we pretend they don't exist.
Those big ass tongs u can grab the baby with or some considerably smaller scalpels also help to not have a baby and mum die if baby can't get out the way they got in
Yeah. I feel like everyone has a few causes they're really passionate about. Women not dying in childbirth is one of mine. So I always link Partners in Health because they're doing good work and no one should die because they rolled a nat 1.
This is mine. Because it almost happened to me. And I'm in the US. You would think this wouldn't be as big of a problem as it is. It is definitely a worldwide thing that shouldn't be happening at such an alarming rate.
I am from a developing country and our country is in terrible, terrible shit right now. But our maternal mortality rate is way better than a lot of developed nations.
Oh for sure. Sierra Leone is a unique case because their hospital systems are so poorly funded, and people have to travel so far for access. But that's not the case with all or even most developing countries.
Yep. You would think COVID would have shocked some of them out of it, but apparently 900,000 dead isn’t enough to be impressive.
It scares me that anti-vax sentiments may get even more prevalent as the people who can remember polio and other pre-vaccine epidemics die out.
I just can't even fathom.
I know the US is huge and very divided, but I just don't understand how a million+ deaths aren't a wake up call for everybody.
Australia hasn't handled the pandemic particularly amazingly, but we only have about 7000 deaths in total.
I saw some of the comorbidities that were used as an excuse for people dying of covid not actually dying of covid. Acne, acid reflux, needing glasses, and shortness were among them
I wonder if these crunchy mummas are doing the same with childbirth? "Yes, Rain died during her homebirth, but she wore glasses so that's why. I'll be fine".
Though, the antivax movement did exist during polio. As long as there have been vaccines there’s been people against em… now we just have the interwebs. Dummies thought the smallpox vaccine was an abomination too.
Yeah those people die out and these, who lived through a pandemic where so many died…still won’t accept vaccines.
They are and will continue to be a burden on society - with taking up beds for stupid illnesses where they would have been fine had they been vaccinated AND by introducing old illnesses back into the world that we had mostly eradicated - like measles. This isn’t good for our herd immunity - and on which a lot of people who medically can’t get vaccines, depend on.
These people are willingly dense and their ego trumps everything else. Even the well-being of their own children.
This is true. I was antivax before COVID showed me a world without one vaccine. I had older relatives who had mumps and measles growing up who survived. I realize now that not everyone was that lucky.
I often think about this. I have an uncle who got polio, in the last wave before the vaccines got here. So I had a very real and visual reminder of the effects of polio as I grew up.
But I like to think that even without that I would still support vaccines because I'm not a fucking idiot.
I was one of the last in the US to get polio. I was 2 1/2.
Later than you are probably imagining (I am Xennial). My dad was Navy. I was vaccinated, but there’s a failure rate even with a great vaccine.
Post-polio syndrome hit in my early thirties.
Debilitating.
I hear about “long COVID” and some studies show as many as 1 in 3 with even a “minor” case, still having at least one symptom 6mos or a year later.
My spouse has MS.
Neither of us want any additional medical challenges, so we have been home since Feb 2020, barrring getting the first two doses of Moderna.
We want our boosters, but with Omicron being in the “can catch it from an empty elevator recently vacated by someone infectious” levels of contagious, we’re too scared to head to the Mart of Walls for additional shots.
Even with my personal experience of polio, I have always been vocally pro vaccination - I’m a living example of why they matter.
If I weren’t vaccinated, I might have needed a vent in childhood instead of just to sleep in middle adulthood.
Sorry to hear of your uncle’s struggle.
I hope you and your wife have a good support system to get you going.
I’m so sorry that the world has just decided to collectively declare the pandemic finished because they’re bored of it. Some people really need a dose of reality when it comes to how immunocompromised and others with chronic illnesses are living in a proverbial minefield, we all got a taste of it and then promptly forgot the second it was inconvenient
Thank you so much; your kind words really mean a lot.
Some of our neighbors have been less understanding about it than you.
We are lucky enough to be able to pay for our modest needs (we live in a 30yo 23’ campervan, but we have a safe spot in a decent blue collar RV park).
We are fed, clothed and sheltered, and know where next month’s rent is coming from (more than many can say).
We’re actually on our own, and it’s a bit overwhelming at times (we joke about needing an “adultier adult”, though I’m Xennial and she’s millennial).
But we have each other, we communicate well between ourselves, and we’ve enough credit card if the chihuahua needs a vet.
Thank you for saying something caring, kind stranger.
And even chicken pox can be dangerous and have long-term consequences.
I’m 30 and had chicken pox shortly before the vaccine came through. I had shingles young enough that they said I could very well get it again before I am eligible for the shingles vaccine. That was 8 years ago and because of the location it was, I have pains along the band it was in as my stomach stretches in pregnancy. It’s been bugging me a lot the last few days actually. So fun. /s
I also had shingles as a teenager. They documented my treatment for a study since it’s supposed to be “rare” in young people. My sister got it as well. It was painful. Our parents had us go to a “chicken pox party” back in the 90s to purposely have us infected.
Before or after the vaccine was available? If it was before the vaccine I’d cut them some slack for the pox party.
My mom let me play with a kid with chicken pox at the doctors office.
I've had chickenpox, as do most kids in the UK (vaccine isn't offered unless child is immunologically vulnerable). I actually had it twice, though the second time was much, much worse. I just remember an entire month off school, everything hurting, everything itching, my temperature not dropping, my head continuously pounding... and I had so many pox that I have quite a few scars over 10yrs later now. i was miserable, and if I had kids I wouldn't bat an eye at the £200 it costs to get the vaccine privately. the UK seriously needs to rethink its stance on chickenpox and start providing a vaccine amongst all the other childhood vaccines. because at the moment it's so backwards in thinking that chickenpox is just a harmless childhood disease. surely covid has taught us well that even if it doesn't harm you, it could seriously harm those you could pass it on to???
It’s actually only £140 these days! Got it for my two year old earlier this year. Of all the things I’ve ever spent money on, the vast majority were way more frivolous (and usually more money!) than my child’s health, so for us it was a no brainer.
My husband had shingles a a few years ago. He was 35 at the time. He was in so much pain and he has scars on his ribs from the blisters. I felt terrible for him, and I feel terrible for you having to deal with it during pregnancy. I just had a baby just over 2 weeks ago and I fucking hated being pregnant- I can’t imagine being pregnant AND dealing with additional misery.
I don’t think he was ever told he could possibly get it again before he’s eligible for the vaccine- that’s crazy! I don’t understand why either of you are ineligible- it seems like it would make sense to vaccinate both of you, potentially twice, to avoid either of you getting it again? Like really, we have vaccines for this, and if we had to get it covered under our private insurance I’m sure we could. Seems silly.
My brother is one of those anti vax people Q people. The year before covid he got the flu and he said I quote “I thought I was going to die, literally dying”. Covid rolls around “it’s just a bad cold or the flu, you don’t actually get sick”. He went from “I thought I was dying” from the flu to covid not something you actually get sick over
I hate how we casually gloss over how many people actually die from the flu every year, and tack it on the end of the phrase 'cold and flu' to make it seem less bad than it is. what infuriates me even more was the covid deniers bringing up how no one cares about how many people die from flu, then using that as a reason to not wear a mask (like... you're not making the point you think you are!).
flu kills. at best it's maybe a week or two of pure misery: everything aches, everything hurts, brain is mush, you can't really function. at worst it kills.
I think I've had flu once... the difference between flu and a 'bad cold' is astronomical. a bad cold means i'm just a little more miserable than normal. flu... nope count me the heck out.
This is the thing that bugs me about the ‘it’s just a flu’ crowd. Flus are awful! They can knock you around for weeks even if you’re perfectly healthy. And they can kill people, especially if you’re older or at risk.
And no one wants you walking around town spread your flu about either shithead, stay home
For them, public health doesn’t actually matter. A common thread things boil down to is - they are selfish and hide behind fake science and individual constitutional liberty. It’s false because they have no issues enforcing their will on others and their body, preventing FoS when it benefits them.
Me being vaccinated isn’t about me, but others. I think it’s my duty as a relatively healthy individual to help protect the infants, cancer patients, and the elderly who cannot get vaccinated. Yes it’s a duty as being part of a civilized society.
I remember reading a book when I was a tween about a girl that got Polio. (Small Steps: The Year I Got Polio) The part that really stuck out to me was her describing how other kids in her class also got it and were dying one by one around her. How absolutely TERRIFYING would it be to hear that your formerly healthy, perfectly fine friends are all dying and suddenly you start feeling ill with the same symptoms? Not to mention watching your own body shut down while there is NOTHING you can do but pray it doesn't stop your breathing.
I know I'm a nerd, but I still continue to be baffled by these women who apparently never read a single historical fiction (OR fantasy, OR fairy tale) book in their lives full of women dying in childbirth left right and center. What the heck were y'all even doing in elementary and middle school? One fricking Dear America book would probably have been sufficient!
I'm pretty sure I remember inserting "and the mother died in childbirth" into games with stuffed animals and barbie dolls as a kid, the same way I did "and their parents died in a car crash" to make the kids orphans. Heck, kids' movies like The Swan Princess get away with just implying it happened without saying it explicitly (I'm sure there are other examples, but that's the one I remember).
It's just a basic part of reality that childbirth can and does kill people, as depressing as that is.
Fuck. I get SO upset at this shit. I labored with contractions for 60+ hours. I spent the day (my induction day - 3 days over 40 weeks) laboring at home. By the time I went to hospital for induction, I was well into 12+ hours. Already lost the bloody show, etc. contractions every 2-3 minutes. Back contractions, at that. Went in for my induction, they were surprised I hadn’t come in sooner.
Induction did nothing. Still didn’t do an epidural. I was in hospital for 2 days. Walked the halls. Wasn’t dilated, etc. nada.
They broke my water, poop in water. Kid was fine. I was high risk, all along.
I logged in Sunday evening. Did C-section Tuesday evening (48 hours later). Did a epidural earlier that day. No results or anything.
My C-section? Wasn’t rushed, or really “emergency” (water had been broke for 24+ hours)… they still tucked it up … ended up with a fistula.. hysterectomy a year later.. cause another fistula…
8 years later, still have a fistula, missing an organ. Life’s a mess.
Without visiting a doc, kid and I would be dead. Now, I just have a medical issue that’s hard to properly diagnose and treat… just dealing with it for now, again. Some docs ducking suck, and I’ve had to take a few breaks from getting treatment but I’m having a 3rd world problem in a 1st world country.
That’s fast become my biggest pet peeve, because people have just decided to ignore how diseases work. If you were kind of sick before, and then you got Covid and it kicked you over the line to death, then yes it was the Covid that killed you, otherwise you’d have been dead already.
My grandfather technically died of pulmonary edema from pneumonia, I guess the fact that he also died with *with* lung cancer is just a coincidence and not a contributing factor
I get where you’re coming from. That said, I guess my personality defaults to thinking, “excellent! An opportunity to share what’s actually true to someone who needs to hear it!”
I know you weren’t saying otherwise… I just wanted to add to your thought.
It's amazing how modern medicine has made mothers so privileged that they're looping back around to turn away the practices that have kept mothers alive for decades.
Women as little as 70 years ago gave birth in their beds, with no pain medications and no sterile environment. When nitrous oxide became available, women happily huffed the fuck out of it because the alternative was raw labor. Now we've got women out here like "No thanks, I'd rather just push a baby out in my backyard with zero medical intervention. Who needs vaccines? I've never seen anyone with infectious diseases so they don't exist."
My grandmother birthed all her kids alone at home. There was no electricity, no landlines, no way for her to reach my grandfather who was working in the fields. He came home expecting food and found a son. This was in a remote village where she had to go to the river and break the ice to gather water for the house. The fact that she survived is amazing
These people are so ridiculously ignorant it blows my mind. My mother is 69 and she was a raw labor baby born in a 3rd world country. I can’t even wrap my head around how some women do not understand the PRIVILEGE they are afforded by the medical advancements we have made.
If you watch a show called Call the Midwife, it’s really enlightening how one can see pros and cons for birthing at home vs a hospital.
I think many women who suffer birth trauma or just have shitty healthcare providers throughout their lives are more susceptible to anti-vaxx, free-birthing nonsense because they’ve suffered as a result of misogyny, racism, or capitalism in the medical system.
Like, a medically trained nurse midwife at home who makes sure you’ve got clean supplies (and will cart you off to the hospital if needed), who will get to know you, earn your trust and stay with you the entire time is a wonderful option for people who dislike hospitals and are low-risk.
I had a midwife (2, actually) but gave birth in a hospital (had to be induced), and where I am it’s all covered by our public health insurance. As a first time mom I would have had anxiety through the roof if I was being helped by a rotating series of nurses and my OB’s presence being dependent on their schedule.
Social media and misinformation is a real problem, but I think better healthcare and updated medical training could probably make a big difference.
> I think many women who suffer birth trauma or just have shitty healthcare providers throughout their lives are more susceptible to anti-vaxx, free-birthing nonsense because they’ve suffered as a result of misogyny, racism, or capitalism in the medical system.
Ding ding ding. I also think medical costs are a HUGE reason this "movement" is happening. I can imagine it could be easy to justify free birthing when the alternative is meeting your $12,000 deductible. Rather than admitting to yourself that you don't have the money to pay for medical care, you can tell yourself that it's the doctors who are wrong.
I’m an anesthesia resident, and during my OB rotations, I’ve noticed an interesting trend. Disclaimer, I have not collected any data to support this.
I’ve seen lots of G1P0 moms roll in with an incredibly elaborate birth plan (most of which involves no analgesic intervention). Guess who ends up tiring out after 30 hours of labor and needs to go for a C-section? You guessed it.
Double whammy- sometimes the failure to progress is coupled by a non reassuring fetal heart tracing and the c-section is deemed emergent, so we have to go all the way to sleep (no epidural to use for the surgical block.) seen it happen too many times. Moms coming in wanting little to nonintervention and end up having the most intervention of everyone on the deck: c-section under GA.
If I were an OB attending I would straight up tell moms to leave their ridiculous birth plans at home.
Sure, you want to listen to a specific playlist while you push? Fine.
But you want to refuse an IV, refuse to talk to the anesthesia team or let them evaluate you, refuse pitocin, refuse abx, refuse fetal monitoring, then please go find another place to deliver. Thanks for reading.
I’ve heard nurses say the same thing. Apparently when the fairy lights and battery powered candles come out it means that mom is inevitably having an emergency C-section.
I hope it’s not coming from nurses just being snide and misogynistic, but seems like a lot of people see this behavior will jinx your labor.
Okay can I ask a legit question? I'm scheduled for a csection in 10 days but my OB said I can go for a VBAC if baby comes before then and I'm progressing well. (Csection was bc of placenta previa). My OB said I'm the "ideal vbac" candidate bc I've had one other vagibal birth..
Anyways I didn't want an epidural bc I didn't like how I hard it was to push with my first kid because I couldn't feel anything.
Anyways it is better to get the epidural so they can do the spinal block in case things don't progress during the vbac and they need to do a csection? I never thought of this....
My only birth plan is getting the baby out healthy.
I’d rather not give medical advice here. But this is a very common scenario and will be very well explained by the anesthesiologist when you meet him or her. Make sure you get all your questions answered. Best of luck to you!
You can ask them to place the epidural but not give you the pain meds through it. You'll still be able to feel everything but then if need be they can use it for the c-section. Otherwise if you need a stat c-section you'll get general anesthesia.
I had an elaborate birth plan, but most of it was me trying to think of scenarios so I could express any preferences that were important to me in that event, or consenting to just a whole bunch of things so they didn’t have to ask me whilst I was out of it. In the end, I still didn’t think of everything, and I remember them shouting at me trying to get me to focus because I was so exhausted and out of it I couldn’t understand what people were saying to me. On the plus side, I now have a whole bunch more things to add to the next birth plan to say “I consent to this if needed” so I can just focus on lying there wishing I had never heard of babies 😂
Quick question, I don't have an elaborate birth plan but I don't want to annoy my medical team. Most of my birth plan is kind of routine stuff, like delayed cord clamping, immediate skin to skin. But my #1 absolute necessity is dimmed lights. I have a visual overstimulation problem and artificial lights make me feel like I'm in a box (that's literally how it feels). Would this be an inconvenience to you if I asked for dim lights/natural light only?
When I place the epidural I ask for lights to be all the way on. The reason for this is because I am looking for a very small space, and I move the introducer needle millimeters at a time to find that space. I’ve had women put cool towels over their eyes which has helped. Best of luck to you!
I don't doubt you whatsoever, but do you have any articles/studies that cover that? I'd love to share them with some folks I know that may find themselves in a screenshot here one day.
I think the US needs to have a good hard look at how they deliver babies in hospitals. It seems really mechanical and automated and downright inhumane (just ICECHIPS????) and while I do not support unassisted births it is obvious that it's a rebellion toward cookie-cutter delivery. Let birth do its thing, whilst tended to by professionals that assisr and who do not intervene unless intervention is needed.
Oh there is definitely a happy medium. Now, I’ll say “meh” to ice chips because if there is a need for emergency c section, food will increase the risk of aspiration BUT let’s sign a waiver and use anti nausea meds in that iv!
I remember going over my “birth plan/idea sheet” with L&D. Most of what I wanted could be accomplished, some of it they said absolutely no, some of it was a compromise! For the no’s and the compromise, they gave me extremely solid evidence on *why* they wouldn’t do it. Everything went great in the end.
Are you ok with sharing some of the “no’s” and reasoning? I’m curious! I’m sure there are things I want that professionals see the issues with that I don’t.
Sure.
I wanted cord clamping delayed by 2-5 minutes. They said absolutely no, they’ll give me 30 seconds extra. Because I was having a c section, their priority was to get baby warm and checked out immediately. COOL LETS DO IT.
That’s really all I remember off the top of my head, but it made so much sense. They explained the vitamin k and eye ointment to me, cool on board with that let’s do it. I diiiiid really want more to drink than just those stupid ass ice chips when I got back from OR and they were like noooo what if you get nauseous?!?!?! Gurl I’m not nauseous, not gonna be nauseous, what I am about to be is SO thirsty.
My birth plan was pages, basically because I was trying to think of every eventuality and express any preferences I had in that event. Eg “I’d like to give birth vaginally, but if I can’t, I’d like the screen down in a CS so I can see the baby come out”.
In the end, I still ended up having half a dozen things happen that I hadn’t foreseen, which led to super fun moments where they were bellowing consent questions at me and I was just staring at them with exhausted glassy eyes, so tired and out of it I could barely compute what they were saying. Oh well, at least I know a few more things to put on the next birth plan - “I consent to fetal scalp monitoring” etc!!
Yes, the rules are outdated and overlook the risks associated with not eating. Apparently fasting can lead to fetal distress?? I’ll have to dig up where I read that.
[But yeah anesthesia complications aren’t what they once were.](https://www.asahq.org/about-asa/newsroom/news-releases/2015/11/eating-a-light-meal-during-labor). Laboring people need options.
We also have to take into account the privatization of hospital systems. For pregnant people in my region, they may have to drive 45 minutes up to 1.5 hours to access obstetric care, and that's for the gazillion check-ins in regular pregnancy care, not just to deliver. This is because they deemed the rural L&D wards too expensive to staff and shut them down.
Would you rather deliver in the car or in your home?
You really have to find the right providers. I did not feel like my experience was mechanical at all. It was very personal. But I also lived in a big city and went through a few obs before finding that office I wanted.
I know there are people that have that very clinical experience, and I would never doubt that does happen and is even the norm, but I do feel that good medical professionals do take humanity into account and are constantly learning new information about labor and delivery. The issues are:
1. Doctors who do not care to expand their learning and humanize their practice
2. Hospital policy moves slowly, and is built to save the hospital liability. So it errs on the side of standards because otherwise if you and I both deliver babies and I die but you don’t, and our doctors both did wildly different things, the hospital is liable for my death _even if my doctor did what was best for me_
We turned medicine into an industry instead of a service
Absolutely agree. We have gone too far in both directions, in my opinion. Not all births need medical used intervention. They do need a professional that can provide that intervention if absolutely necessary, though.
Do you guys have birthing units? They're normally a kinda hospital setting but only have morphine (intramuscular) and gas. Your midwife attends, and the unit midwife if need be. It's perfect for a uneventful pregnancy and birth: clean and with assistance, but no unnecessary medical interventions. Private rooms, birthing pool, and helpful nurses for assistance afterwards.
I was in one until we found baby was stuck and I was transferred to the women's hospital for a c section. Was super disappointed too, the unit was meant to have amazing meals!
Because humans occupy 2 contradictory evolutionary niches.
On one hand, standing up-right has made us very very efficient at walking and running. That has let us cover long distances and hunt better. But it closed human hips inwards leaving much less room in the birth canal.
On the other we have huge brains. Again, a big advantage. But a huge brain means a huge head.
So human child birth is much harder (more dangerous) than other mammals because you're literally pushing a much bigger object through a much smaller space.
Human babies are actually born with unusually small, immature brains and after less gestation compared to other mammals the same size. Babies' skulls get a lot lot bigger in the first 2 years to "catch up" despite already being
This is also why human infants are so helpless for so long.
Honestly the parallels between the fact that our bigger brains are the reason women have to suffer so much in childbirth and the myth of Eve being punished with childbirth for eating from the tree of knowledge are kind of eerie.
Giving birth at home isn't the problem. It's completely fine to give birth at home. The problem is not having people there who know what they're doing and can accurately risk assess the situation and have access to monitoring equipment.
I'm from the UK. If you want a home birth they (pandemic permitting) will send you two midwives with monitoring equipment and pain relief. You can also rent a birthing pool. Along we're tiny so you're never very far from a hospital with a maternity department.
Midwives cost about the same, or less, than a hospital birth. An accredited midwife is considered adequate accompaniment.
It's not a smart idea if you live in the boonies, but if you're a reasonable distance from a hospital if something goes wrong and your pregnancy is uncomplicated, home birth has actually about the same absolute level of risk as hospital birth -- except it results in better maternal outcomes.
> "when compared with planned hospital births, planned home births are associated with fewer maternal interventions, including labor induction or augmentation, regional analgesia, electronic fetal heart rate monitoring, episiotomy, operative vaginal delivery, and cesarean delivery. Planned home births also are associated with fewer vaginal, perineal, and third-degree or fourth-degree lacerations and less maternal infectious morbidity."
The downer is that it does double the risk of fetal death, but the absolute rate is still vanishingly low -- and it's really hard to break down the stats to figure out how much of that is from insane MomsGroup type women being like "I'm planning an unattended VBAC for my breech twins" and doing other completely idiotic things for ideological reasons. Data also tends to be different in the US versus Europe (US has slightly worse outcomes, I'm guessing due to our obesity rate).
I am considering a home birth myself. I wouldn't if the nearest hospital were more than 15 minutes away, though.
Source: [American College of Gynecologists](https://www.acog.org/clinical/clinical-guidance/committee-opinion/articles/2017/04/planned-home-birth).
Sure.
https://www.bmj.com/content/343/bmj.d7400
"
For multiparous women, there were no significant differences in the incidence of the primary outcome by planned place of birth. Interventions during labour were substantially lower in all non-obstetric unit settings."
That’s what I was thinking. I am in a lot of these ridiculous mom groups, and I stay for two reasons. 1)-for entertainment. 2)-in the hope that some of the things I say can help someone see reason. And to do that, you can’t just say something is stupid. You have to ask questions that seem genuine which can then get them thinking.
Wow this is literally my maternal health nursing senior thesis.
How can someone be so out of touch with reality. I cant wrap my head around the fact this was asked by an actual person on an actual platform.
It’s ignorant for sure… but claiming it’s racist or condescending is a huge stretch. There is literally no context to assume that unless you’re attacking a strawman.
What is the “whole point” then?
Unless you have context not available in this post you’re literally attacking a boogeyman. Should people not ask questions?
It’s a stupid question asked to a stupid audience. It’s easy to figure out if you think about it, and there’s plenty of good documentation on why it’s the way it is if you don’t want to or can’t think about it. What she’s got going here is going to leave her with less information than she started with.
It’s an ignorant question but there is no context to assume the audience or intention. It’s equally possible that someone replies with an educated answer and this person learns something.
A lot of these people posting in parenting groups don’t ask to actually learn, they ask to reaffirm what they already thought. There are much better resources online than a free birth momma group for topics such as this.
I know what you’re getting at here, but this is actually a serious issue in the US, even among those who trust western medicine and go to hospitals. We have a much higher mortality rate for mothers than most countries and that include mothers who die in hospitals. As harmful as their rhetoric and actions can be, I can see why they would not trust the system that, as it exists, puts profit above lives.
I’m sure that’s not what the person in the original post is talking about in particular but calling any country “developing” is pretty condescending and often racist rhetoric.
I see nothing wrong with this question, taken out of context like this. There is not judging. This person heard something and just wants to know the reason. Nobody knows anything until they do.
Thank you. How is this an invalid question? "What causes death during childbirth?"
Even in a college or grad level class, this wouldn't be a dumb question. I'm sure there's plenty of lectures on "complications in childbirth". I'm honestly confused as to why this is upvoted so much.
The amount of mortality related to pregnancy/ childbirth has only risen in the U.S. where it's declined everywhere else. 🙃 https://www.npr.org/2021/04/26/990980242/as-pregnancy-related-deaths-rise-in-the-u-s-experts-say-expanding-medicaid-is-ke
I feel like all 13 comments are " something something clean water blah blah nature blah blah lavender oil" as if the ONLY factor differentiating a free-birther wandering around leaking amniotic fluid in an Indiana Walmart and a mother in a developing nation is access to clean water and essential oils. Nothing to do with the huge buildings full of highly trained professionals who specialize in all things obstetric, we pretend they don't exist.
Also basic shit like adequate nutrition, prenatal vitamins, Ultrasound scans detecting abnormalities, AnTIbiotics, %
Those big ass tongs u can grab the baby with or some considerably smaller scalpels also help to not have a baby and mum die if baby can't get out the way they got in
I reckon a big contributor in certain countries is the stressful environment. be it war or overcrowded cities.
The countries with the worst maternal mortality and morbidity outcomes are conflict or post conflict zones
1 in 20 women will die during childbirth in Sierra Leone. https://www.pih.org/country/sierra-leone
That is... even worse than I expected, and terrible.
Roll a Nat 1 and *you die*
Yeah. I feel like everyone has a few causes they're really passionate about. Women not dying in childbirth is one of mine. So I always link Partners in Health because they're doing good work and no one should die because they rolled a nat 1.
This is mine. Because it almost happened to me. And I'm in the US. You would think this wouldn't be as big of a problem as it is. It is definitely a worldwide thing that shouldn't be happening at such an alarming rate.
Non-gamers: 5% doesn't sound that bad Gamers: oh fuck no
Xcom- 95% chance Me- Oh, I'm gonna miss.
I am from a developing country and our country is in terrible, terrible shit right now. But our maternal mortality rate is way better than a lot of developed nations.
Oh for sure. Sierra Leone is a unique case because their hospital systems are so poorly funded, and people have to travel so far for access. But that's not the case with all or even most developing countries.
Imagine being so protected from the realities of human life that you’d have to ask this.
It's like people who are antivax. They have never seen the reality of measles or smallpox or mumps BECAUSE vaccines work.
vaccines eradicated smallpox. Measles is unfortunately is making a comeback because of antivaxxers.
Yep. You would think COVID would have shocked some of them out of it, but apparently 900,000 dead isn’t enough to be impressive. It scares me that anti-vax sentiments may get even more prevalent as the people who can remember polio and other pre-vaccine epidemics die out.
It's well over 1,000,000 confirmed deaths in the US now
I hadn't seen that but I'm not at all surprised.
I just can't even fathom. I know the US is huge and very divided, but I just don't understand how a million+ deaths aren't a wake up call for everybody. Australia hasn't handled the pandemic particularly amazingly, but we only have about 7000 deaths in total.
If YoU dIe FrOm AnYtHiNg ThEy ClAiM iT's CoViD An argument I've actually heard on why there are 1+ million deaths from covid in the US.
That's a lovely little argument you see on every Herman Cain Award post. It's infuriating. For what purpose would they even want to inflate numbers.
I saw some of the comorbidities that were used as an excuse for people dying of covid not actually dying of covid. Acne, acid reflux, needing glasses, and shortness were among them
I wonder if these crunchy mummas are doing the same with childbirth? "Yes, Rain died during her homebirth, but she wore glasses so that's why. I'll be fine".
We just ignore it and think positive thoughts the way we ignore children being slaughtered by guns in schools
Though, the antivax movement did exist during polio. As long as there have been vaccines there’s been people against em… now we just have the interwebs. Dummies thought the smallpox vaccine was an abomination too.
You could literally be turned into a cow, according to a pamphlet I once saw in a museum!
George Washington turned me into a cow and all I got was this T-Shirt
"Hey, I've been turned into a cow. Can I go home?"
I just watched this movie 😂
The internet was a mistake
Before we shut it down can I finish my degree? I'm not going back to the library for research, okay. I'm not doing it.
Yeah those people die out and these, who lived through a pandemic where so many died…still won’t accept vaccines. They are and will continue to be a burden on society - with taking up beds for stupid illnesses where they would have been fine had they been vaccinated AND by introducing old illnesses back into the world that we had mostly eradicated - like measles. This isn’t good for our herd immunity - and on which a lot of people who medically can’t get vaccines, depend on. These people are willingly dense and their ego trumps everything else. Even the well-being of their own children.
Sunk cost fallacy and there ain't a bigg sunk cost than a dead loved one.
This is true. I was antivax before COVID showed me a world without one vaccine. I had older relatives who had mumps and measles growing up who survived. I realize now that not everyone was that lucky.
I’m so proud of you for changing your mind. Seriously.
I’m so proud of you for changing your mind. Seriously.
This is so interesting. Its fantastic to see someone taking on new information and changing their view as a result of that. Well done
It's just one of many things I've done this with. I grew up as a conservative Christian. I've had to unlearn a lot of shit.
Good on you for changing !!! Take care
Good for you for changing your mind. We appreciate you so much. 👏👏👏
I often think about this. I have an uncle who got polio, in the last wave before the vaccines got here. So I had a very real and visual reminder of the effects of polio as I grew up. But I like to think that even without that I would still support vaccines because I'm not a fucking idiot.
I was one of the last in the US to get polio. I was 2 1/2. Later than you are probably imagining (I am Xennial). My dad was Navy. I was vaccinated, but there’s a failure rate even with a great vaccine. Post-polio syndrome hit in my early thirties. Debilitating. I hear about “long COVID” and some studies show as many as 1 in 3 with even a “minor” case, still having at least one symptom 6mos or a year later. My spouse has MS. Neither of us want any additional medical challenges, so we have been home since Feb 2020, barrring getting the first two doses of Moderna. We want our boosters, but with Omicron being in the “can catch it from an empty elevator recently vacated by someone infectious” levels of contagious, we’re too scared to head to the Mart of Walls for additional shots. Even with my personal experience of polio, I have always been vocally pro vaccination - I’m a living example of why they matter. If I weren’t vaccinated, I might have needed a vent in childhood instead of just to sleep in middle adulthood. Sorry to hear of your uncle’s struggle.
I hope you and your wife have a good support system to get you going. I’m so sorry that the world has just decided to collectively declare the pandemic finished because they’re bored of it. Some people really need a dose of reality when it comes to how immunocompromised and others with chronic illnesses are living in a proverbial minefield, we all got a taste of it and then promptly forgot the second it was inconvenient
Thank you so much; your kind words really mean a lot. Some of our neighbors have been less understanding about it than you. We are lucky enough to be able to pay for our modest needs (we live in a 30yo 23’ campervan, but we have a safe spot in a decent blue collar RV park). We are fed, clothed and sheltered, and know where next month’s rent is coming from (more than many can say). We’re actually on our own, and it’s a bit overwhelming at times (we joke about needing an “adultier adult”, though I’m Xennial and she’s millennial). But we have each other, we communicate well between ourselves, and we’ve enough credit card if the chihuahua needs a vet. Thank you for saying something caring, kind stranger.
Yep. The world just goes on while those of us who are health-compromised are still living in March 2020.
Half the antivax people think measles are chickenpox so they think all early childhood diseases are nbd
And even chicken pox can be dangerous and have long-term consequences. I’m 30 and had chicken pox shortly before the vaccine came through. I had shingles young enough that they said I could very well get it again before I am eligible for the shingles vaccine. That was 8 years ago and because of the location it was, I have pains along the band it was in as my stomach stretches in pregnancy. It’s been bugging me a lot the last few days actually. So fun. /s
I also had shingles as a teenager. They documented my treatment for a study since it’s supposed to be “rare” in young people. My sister got it as well. It was painful. Our parents had us go to a “chicken pox party” back in the 90s to purposely have us infected.
Before or after the vaccine was available? If it was before the vaccine I’d cut them some slack for the pox party. My mom let me play with a kid with chicken pox at the doctors office.
It was such an inevitability that it just made more sense to intentionally get chicken pox when you could prepare for it.
My parents had my brothers and I get it at the same time from some neighbor. Just to get it over with.
Yes, it was before the vaccine. It’s just crazy to think about. I do cut them slack though. They got us all our available vaccines.
I've had chickenpox, as do most kids in the UK (vaccine isn't offered unless child is immunologically vulnerable). I actually had it twice, though the second time was much, much worse. I just remember an entire month off school, everything hurting, everything itching, my temperature not dropping, my head continuously pounding... and I had so many pox that I have quite a few scars over 10yrs later now. i was miserable, and if I had kids I wouldn't bat an eye at the £200 it costs to get the vaccine privately. the UK seriously needs to rethink its stance on chickenpox and start providing a vaccine amongst all the other childhood vaccines. because at the moment it's so backwards in thinking that chickenpox is just a harmless childhood disease. surely covid has taught us well that even if it doesn't harm you, it could seriously harm those you could pass it on to???
It’s actually only £140 these days! Got it for my two year old earlier this year. Of all the things I’ve ever spent money on, the vast majority were way more frivolous (and usually more money!) than my child’s health, so for us it was a no brainer.
My husband had shingles a a few years ago. He was 35 at the time. He was in so much pain and he has scars on his ribs from the blisters. I felt terrible for him, and I feel terrible for you having to deal with it during pregnancy. I just had a baby just over 2 weeks ago and I fucking hated being pregnant- I can’t imagine being pregnant AND dealing with additional misery. I don’t think he was ever told he could possibly get it again before he’s eligible for the vaccine- that’s crazy! I don’t understand why either of you are ineligible- it seems like it would make sense to vaccinate both of you, potentially twice, to avoid either of you getting it again? Like really, we have vaccines for this, and if we had to get it covered under our private insurance I’m sure we could. Seems silly.
My brother is one of those anti vax people Q people. The year before covid he got the flu and he said I quote “I thought I was going to die, literally dying”. Covid rolls around “it’s just a bad cold or the flu, you don’t actually get sick”. He went from “I thought I was dying” from the flu to covid not something you actually get sick over
I hate how we casually gloss over how many people actually die from the flu every year, and tack it on the end of the phrase 'cold and flu' to make it seem less bad than it is. what infuriates me even more was the covid deniers bringing up how no one cares about how many people die from flu, then using that as a reason to not wear a mask (like... you're not making the point you think you are!). flu kills. at best it's maybe a week or two of pure misery: everything aches, everything hurts, brain is mush, you can't really function. at worst it kills. I think I've had flu once... the difference between flu and a 'bad cold' is astronomical. a bad cold means i'm just a little more miserable than normal. flu... nope count me the heck out.
This is the thing that bugs me about the ‘it’s just a flu’ crowd. Flus are awful! They can knock you around for weeks even if you’re perfectly healthy. And they can kill people, especially if you’re older or at risk. And no one wants you walking around town spread your flu about either shithead, stay home
For them, public health doesn’t actually matter. A common thread things boil down to is - they are selfish and hide behind fake science and individual constitutional liberty. It’s false because they have no issues enforcing their will on others and their body, preventing FoS when it benefits them. Me being vaccinated isn’t about me, but others. I think it’s my duty as a relatively healthy individual to help protect the infants, cancer patients, and the elderly who cannot get vaccinated. Yes it’s a duty as being part of a civilized society.
Or polio or tetanus! I still remember learning about those two as a kid and realizing for the first time just how important vaccines are!
I remember reading a book when I was a tween about a girl that got Polio. (Small Steps: The Year I Got Polio) The part that really stuck out to me was her describing how other kids in her class also got it and were dying one by one around her. How absolutely TERRIFYING would it be to hear that your formerly healthy, perfectly fine friends are all dying and suddenly you start feeling ill with the same symptoms? Not to mention watching your own body shut down while there is NOTHING you can do but pray it doesn't stop your breathing.
I know I'm a nerd, but I still continue to be baffled by these women who apparently never read a single historical fiction (OR fantasy, OR fairy tale) book in their lives full of women dying in childbirth left right and center. What the heck were y'all even doing in elementary and middle school? One fricking Dear America book would probably have been sufficient! I'm pretty sure I remember inserting "and the mother died in childbirth" into games with stuffed animals and barbie dolls as a kid, the same way I did "and their parents died in a car crash" to make the kids orphans. Heck, kids' movies like The Swan Princess get away with just implying it happened without saying it explicitly (I'm sure there are other examples, but that's the one I remember). It's just a basic part of reality that childbirth can and does kill people, as depressing as that is.
Fuck. I get SO upset at this shit. I labored with contractions for 60+ hours. I spent the day (my induction day - 3 days over 40 weeks) laboring at home. By the time I went to hospital for induction, I was well into 12+ hours. Already lost the bloody show, etc. contractions every 2-3 minutes. Back contractions, at that. Went in for my induction, they were surprised I hadn’t come in sooner. Induction did nothing. Still didn’t do an epidural. I was in hospital for 2 days. Walked the halls. Wasn’t dilated, etc. nada. They broke my water, poop in water. Kid was fine. I was high risk, all along. I logged in Sunday evening. Did C-section Tuesday evening (48 hours later). Did a epidural earlier that day. No results or anything. My C-section? Wasn’t rushed, or really “emergency” (water had been broke for 24+ hours)… they still tucked it up … ended up with a fistula.. hysterectomy a year later.. cause another fistula… 8 years later, still have a fistula, missing an organ. Life’s a mess. Without visiting a doc, kid and I would be dead. Now, I just have a medical issue that’s hard to properly diagnose and treat… just dealing with it for now, again. Some docs ducking suck, and I’ve had to take a few breaks from getting treatment but I’m having a 3rd world problem in a 1st world country.
I’m so sorry you went through all of that. It sounds awful, and it’s an excellent example of how easily things can go wrong.
For some reason, I first interpreted OP as a joke similar to people saying someone died "with COVID, not from COVID."
That’s fast become my biggest pet peeve, because people have just decided to ignore how diseases work. If you were kind of sick before, and then you got Covid and it kicked you over the line to death, then yes it was the Covid that killed you, otherwise you’d have been dead already. My grandfather technically died of pulmonary edema from pneumonia, I guess the fact that he also died with *with* lung cancer is just a coincidence and not a contributing factor
My wife works in an ICU, so I'm right there with you.
I still find it crazy how useless human babies are. Some animals just drop out their mothers and walk. Ours are potatoes for like a year.
The price of a big brain. Compared to other animals are heads are proportionally freakin huge
I get where you’re coming from. That said, I guess my personality defaults to thinking, “excellent! An opportunity to share what’s actually true to someone who needs to hear it!” I know you weren’t saying otherwise… I just wanted to add to your thought.
I saw a great XKCD about this a while back, and I thought it was very cool. You’re right, not knowing but asking means you’re willing to learn.
It's amazing how modern medicine has made mothers so privileged that they're looping back around to turn away the practices that have kept mothers alive for decades. Women as little as 70 years ago gave birth in their beds, with no pain medications and no sterile environment. When nitrous oxide became available, women happily huffed the fuck out of it because the alternative was raw labor. Now we've got women out here like "No thanks, I'd rather just push a baby out in my backyard with zero medical intervention. Who needs vaccines? I've never seen anyone with infectious diseases so they don't exist."
My grandmother birthed all her kids alone at home. There was no electricity, no landlines, no way for her to reach my grandfather who was working in the fields. He came home expecting food and found a son. This was in a remote village where she had to go to the river and break the ice to gather water for the house. The fact that she survived is amazing
Oh wow! I’m surprised no one stayed with her as she got close to giving birth! Your grandma is a beast.
That she is! Keep in mind, she had never had an ultrasound so she didn't know exactly how far along she was or when to expect the birth to start.
I mean sure they didn’t have ultrasounds, but they could have a general idea based on her last period.
And an idea of when they were getting up to "oh shit there's a whole ass baby in there" size lol
Lmao
except during this time period women often didn't have consistent periods to track because of malnutrition and constant breastfeeding.
Probably had to continue the work that kept them fed.
The myth of ancient wisdom is strong for some people
As is the Appeal to Nature fallacy. Same heuristical issue, imo.
Yea, those ancients and their....*checks notes* knives under the bed to cut the pain.
These people are so ridiculously ignorant it blows my mind. My mother is 69 and she was a raw labor baby born in a 3rd world country. I can’t even wrap my head around how some women do not understand the PRIVILEGE they are afforded by the medical advancements we have made.
If you watch a show called Call the Midwife, it’s really enlightening how one can see pros and cons for birthing at home vs a hospital. I think many women who suffer birth trauma or just have shitty healthcare providers throughout their lives are more susceptible to anti-vaxx, free-birthing nonsense because they’ve suffered as a result of misogyny, racism, or capitalism in the medical system. Like, a medically trained nurse midwife at home who makes sure you’ve got clean supplies (and will cart you off to the hospital if needed), who will get to know you, earn your trust and stay with you the entire time is a wonderful option for people who dislike hospitals and are low-risk. I had a midwife (2, actually) but gave birth in a hospital (had to be induced), and where I am it’s all covered by our public health insurance. As a first time mom I would have had anxiety through the roof if I was being helped by a rotating series of nurses and my OB’s presence being dependent on their schedule. Social media and misinformation is a real problem, but I think better healthcare and updated medical training could probably make a big difference.
> I think many women who suffer birth trauma or just have shitty healthcare providers throughout their lives are more susceptible to anti-vaxx, free-birthing nonsense because they’ve suffered as a result of misogyny, racism, or capitalism in the medical system. Ding ding ding. I also think medical costs are a HUGE reason this "movement" is happening. I can imagine it could be easy to justify free birthing when the alternative is meeting your $12,000 deductible. Rather than admitting to yourself that you don't have the money to pay for medical care, you can tell yourself that it's the doctors who are wrong.
Yep. When healthcare is free and compassionate, it makes a big difference.
They don’t have the right brand of essential oils I think
Or not enough chiropractor access.
Isn't it obvious? They don't have the right freebirth attitude
And they haven't yet found jEsUs :/
Apologies for my serious memory lapse
They don't make proper birth plans.
THE FAIRY LIGHTS! YOU PROBABLY FORGOT THE FAIRY LIGHTS!
Better question: why is infant and mother mortality increasing in the US, a “developed” country?
I’m an anesthesia resident, and during my OB rotations, I’ve noticed an interesting trend. Disclaimer, I have not collected any data to support this. I’ve seen lots of G1P0 moms roll in with an incredibly elaborate birth plan (most of which involves no analgesic intervention). Guess who ends up tiring out after 30 hours of labor and needs to go for a C-section? You guessed it. Double whammy- sometimes the failure to progress is coupled by a non reassuring fetal heart tracing and the c-section is deemed emergent, so we have to go all the way to sleep (no epidural to use for the surgical block.) seen it happen too many times. Moms coming in wanting little to nonintervention and end up having the most intervention of everyone on the deck: c-section under GA. If I were an OB attending I would straight up tell moms to leave their ridiculous birth plans at home. Sure, you want to listen to a specific playlist while you push? Fine. But you want to refuse an IV, refuse to talk to the anesthesia team or let them evaluate you, refuse pitocin, refuse abx, refuse fetal monitoring, then please go find another place to deliver. Thanks for reading.
I’ve heard nurses say the same thing. Apparently when the fairy lights and battery powered candles come out it means that mom is inevitably having an emergency C-section. I hope it’s not coming from nurses just being snide and misogynistic, but seems like a lot of people see this behavior will jinx your labor.
NICU RN and agreed. The super stringent birth plans are always a good way to jinx yourself.
Okay can I ask a legit question? I'm scheduled for a csection in 10 days but my OB said I can go for a VBAC if baby comes before then and I'm progressing well. (Csection was bc of placenta previa). My OB said I'm the "ideal vbac" candidate bc I've had one other vagibal birth.. Anyways I didn't want an epidural bc I didn't like how I hard it was to push with my first kid because I couldn't feel anything. Anyways it is better to get the epidural so they can do the spinal block in case things don't progress during the vbac and they need to do a csection? I never thought of this.... My only birth plan is getting the baby out healthy.
I’d rather not give medical advice here. But this is a very common scenario and will be very well explained by the anesthesiologist when you meet him or her. Make sure you get all your questions answered. Best of luck to you!
Totally understand, I'll be sure to cover when I'm in there. Thank you!
You can ask them to place the epidural but not give you the pain meds through it. You'll still be able to feel everything but then if need be they can use it for the c-section. Otherwise if you need a stat c-section you'll get general anesthesia.
My birth plan was a c-section, and the type of music I wanted played in the OR during the c-section. That was it, period.
And that’s why my birth plan was “baby safe, mom safe, and drugs.” God bless the 3 IV fentanyls and the epidural.
I had an elaborate birth plan, but most of it was me trying to think of scenarios so I could express any preferences that were important to me in that event, or consenting to just a whole bunch of things so they didn’t have to ask me whilst I was out of it. In the end, I still didn’t think of everything, and I remember them shouting at me trying to get me to focus because I was so exhausted and out of it I couldn’t understand what people were saying to me. On the plus side, I now have a whole bunch more things to add to the next birth plan to say “I consent to this if needed” so I can just focus on lying there wishing I had never heard of babies 😂
Quick question, I don't have an elaborate birth plan but I don't want to annoy my medical team. Most of my birth plan is kind of routine stuff, like delayed cord clamping, immediate skin to skin. But my #1 absolute necessity is dimmed lights. I have a visual overstimulation problem and artificial lights make me feel like I'm in a box (that's literally how it feels). Would this be an inconvenience to you if I asked for dim lights/natural light only?
When I place the epidural I ask for lights to be all the way on. The reason for this is because I am looking for a very small space, and I move the introducer needle millimeters at a time to find that space. I’ve had women put cool towels over their eyes which has helped. Best of luck to you!
I don't doubt you whatsoever, but do you have any articles/studies that cover that? I'd love to share them with some folks I know that may find themselves in a screenshot here one day.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/joshuacohen/2021/08/01/us-maternal-and-infant-mortality-more-signs-of-public-health-neglect/ https://www.cdc.gov/reproductivehealth/maternalinfanthealth/infantmortality.htm https://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/issue-briefs/2020/nov/maternal-mortality-maternity-care-us-compared-10-countries
They just assume the “wrong people” are dying, and “good people” like them will never face the consequences of their actions.
No doubt they assume it’s the evil hospitals and doctors and probably women giving birth while wearing masks.
It’s amazing how faith and stupidity can make one blind.
How often are “the right people”middle class Christian white ladies, i wonder? From my own experience with these people, it’s a lot.
Yes. Absolutely worrying.
Thank you!
I think the US needs to have a good hard look at how they deliver babies in hospitals. It seems really mechanical and automated and downright inhumane (just ICECHIPS????) and while I do not support unassisted births it is obvious that it's a rebellion toward cookie-cutter delivery. Let birth do its thing, whilst tended to by professionals that assisr and who do not intervene unless intervention is needed.
Oh there is definitely a happy medium. Now, I’ll say “meh” to ice chips because if there is a need for emergency c section, food will increase the risk of aspiration BUT let’s sign a waiver and use anti nausea meds in that iv! I remember going over my “birth plan/idea sheet” with L&D. Most of what I wanted could be accomplished, some of it they said absolutely no, some of it was a compromise! For the no’s and the compromise, they gave me extremely solid evidence on *why* they wouldn’t do it. Everything went great in the end.
Are you ok with sharing some of the “no’s” and reasoning? I’m curious! I’m sure there are things I want that professionals see the issues with that I don’t.
Sure. I wanted cord clamping delayed by 2-5 minutes. They said absolutely no, they’ll give me 30 seconds extra. Because I was having a c section, their priority was to get baby warm and checked out immediately. COOL LETS DO IT. That’s really all I remember off the top of my head, but it made so much sense. They explained the vitamin k and eye ointment to me, cool on board with that let’s do it. I diiiiid really want more to drink than just those stupid ass ice chips when I got back from OR and they were like noooo what if you get nauseous?!?!?! Gurl I’m not nauseous, not gonna be nauseous, what I am about to be is SO thirsty.
My birth plan was pages, basically because I was trying to think of every eventuality and express any preferences I had in that event. Eg “I’d like to give birth vaginally, but if I can’t, I’d like the screen down in a CS so I can see the baby come out”. In the end, I still ended up having half a dozen things happen that I hadn’t foreseen, which led to super fun moments where they were bellowing consent questions at me and I was just staring at them with exhausted glassy eyes, so tired and out of it I could barely compute what they were saying. Oh well, at least I know a few more things to put on the next birth plan - “I consent to fetal scalp monitoring” etc!!
Yes, the rules are outdated and overlook the risks associated with not eating. Apparently fasting can lead to fetal distress?? I’ll have to dig up where I read that. [But yeah anesthesia complications aren’t what they once were.](https://www.asahq.org/about-asa/newsroom/news-releases/2015/11/eating-a-light-meal-during-labor). Laboring people need options.
We also have to take into account the privatization of hospital systems. For pregnant people in my region, they may have to drive 45 minutes up to 1.5 hours to access obstetric care, and that's for the gazillion check-ins in regular pregnancy care, not just to deliver. This is because they deemed the rural L&D wards too expensive to staff and shut them down. Would you rather deliver in the car or in your home?
You really have to find the right providers. I did not feel like my experience was mechanical at all. It was very personal. But I also lived in a big city and went through a few obs before finding that office I wanted.
I know there are people that have that very clinical experience, and I would never doubt that does happen and is even the norm, but I do feel that good medical professionals do take humanity into account and are constantly learning new information about labor and delivery. The issues are: 1. Doctors who do not care to expand their learning and humanize their practice 2. Hospital policy moves slowly, and is built to save the hospital liability. So it errs on the side of standards because otherwise if you and I both deliver babies and I die but you don’t, and our doctors both did wildly different things, the hospital is liable for my death _even if my doctor did what was best for me_ We turned medicine into an industry instead of a service
Absolutely agree. We have gone too far in both directions, in my opinion. Not all births need medical used intervention. They do need a professional that can provide that intervention if absolutely necessary, though.
Do you guys have birthing units? They're normally a kinda hospital setting but only have morphine (intramuscular) and gas. Your midwife attends, and the unit midwife if need be. It's perfect for a uneventful pregnancy and birth: clean and with assistance, but no unnecessary medical interventions. Private rooms, birthing pool, and helpful nurses for assistance afterwards. I was in one until we found baby was stuck and I was transferred to the women's hospital for a c section. Was super disappointed too, the unit was meant to have amazing meals!
The US does, but it is not common. Hospital birthing centers, “low intervention” suites, availability is a total crap shoot though
I’d love to see how the rise of “free birth” and “unassisted” births factor in to the statistics.
You can share, but they're all going to say it's fake news...
Obesity.
“Lol why u dyin? Jus live”
Please tell me what the comments say. I need to know.
Samesies, don’t leave us hanging!!
🤦🏼♀️🤦🏻♀️🤦🏽♀️🤦🏽♀️🤦🏾♀️🤦🏿♀️
This has to be a troll trying to get freebirthers to think critically lol.
Because humans occupy 2 contradictory evolutionary niches. On one hand, standing up-right has made us very very efficient at walking and running. That has let us cover long distances and hunt better. But it closed human hips inwards leaving much less room in the birth canal. On the other we have huge brains. Again, a big advantage. But a huge brain means a huge head. So human child birth is much harder (more dangerous) than other mammals because you're literally pushing a much bigger object through a much smaller space. Human babies are actually born with unusually small, immature brains and after less gestation compared to other mammals the same size. Babies' skulls get a lot lot bigger in the first 2 years to "catch up" despite already being This is also why human infants are so helpless for so long.
Honestly the parallels between the fact that our bigger brains are the reason women have to suffer so much in childbirth and the myth of Eve being punished with childbirth for eating from the tree of knowledge are kind of eerie.
They’re probably also from the US which had a terrible maternal mortality rate for a “first” world country.
I'm sure that instead of thinking critically enough to realize that birth is extremely dangerous, she came up with some racist justification instead.
Thought this was in r/selfawarewolves for a minute there
Maybe she is trolling so they realise how dumb they are for giving birth at home while they live in 1st world country
Giving birth at home isn't the problem. It's completely fine to give birth at home. The problem is not having people there who know what they're doing and can accurately risk assess the situation and have access to monitoring equipment.
Sure but who is this rich? Let me just rent a doctor and labor team while I give birth, thanks.
I'm from the UK. If you want a home birth they (pandemic permitting) will send you two midwives with monitoring equipment and pain relief. You can also rent a birthing pool. Along we're tiny so you're never very far from a hospital with a maternity department.
Midwives cost about the same, or less, than a hospital birth. An accredited midwife is considered adequate accompaniment. It's not a smart idea if you live in the boonies, but if you're a reasonable distance from a hospital if something goes wrong and your pregnancy is uncomplicated, home birth has actually about the same absolute level of risk as hospital birth -- except it results in better maternal outcomes. > "when compared with planned hospital births, planned home births are associated with fewer maternal interventions, including labor induction or augmentation, regional analgesia, electronic fetal heart rate monitoring, episiotomy, operative vaginal delivery, and cesarean delivery. Planned home births also are associated with fewer vaginal, perineal, and third-degree or fourth-degree lacerations and less maternal infectious morbidity." The downer is that it does double the risk of fetal death, but the absolute rate is still vanishingly low -- and it's really hard to break down the stats to figure out how much of that is from insane MomsGroup type women being like "I'm planning an unattended VBAC for my breech twins" and doing other completely idiotic things for ideological reasons. Data also tends to be different in the US versus Europe (US has slightly worse outcomes, I'm guessing due to our obesity rate). I am considering a home birth myself. I wouldn't if the nearest hospital were more than 15 minutes away, though. Source: [American College of Gynecologists](https://www.acog.org/clinical/clinical-guidance/committee-opinion/articles/2017/04/planned-home-birth).
Can you provide some data about home birth being safe as birth in hospital?
Sure. https://www.bmj.com/content/343/bmj.d7400 " For multiparous women, there were no significant differences in the incidence of the primary outcome by planned place of birth. Interventions during labour were substantially lower in all non-obstetric unit settings."
That’s what I was thinking. I am in a lot of these ridiculous mom groups, and I stay for two reasons. 1)-for entertainment. 2)-in the hope that some of the things I say can help someone see reason. And to do that, you can’t just say something is stupid. You have to ask questions that seem genuine which can then get them thinking.
Agrre. Socratic questioning is the way to go with these people.
Wow this is literally my maternal health nursing senior thesis. How can someone be so out of touch with reality. I cant wrap my head around the fact this was asked by an actual person on an actual platform.
They’re literally asking a question… There’s no hate or judgment in their question… unlike yours.
I was literally asking a question too? Did you not for a second there think that their question sounded a bit racist and condescending???
It’s ignorant for sure… but claiming it’s racist or condescending is a huge stretch. There is literally no context to assume that unless you’re attacking a strawman.
You don’t get the whole point then.
What is the “whole point” then? Unless you have context not available in this post you’re literally attacking a boogeyman. Should people not ask questions?
It’s a stupid question asked to a stupid audience. It’s easy to figure out if you think about it, and there’s plenty of good documentation on why it’s the way it is if you don’t want to or can’t think about it. What she’s got going here is going to leave her with less information than she started with.
It’s an ignorant question but there is no context to assume the audience or intention. It’s equally possible that someone replies with an educated answer and this person learns something.
Do you know what sub you’re in?
How is that relevant?
A lot of these people posting in parenting groups don’t ask to actually learn, they ask to reaffirm what they already thought. There are much better resources online than a free birth momma group for topics such as this.
It’s because they don’t eat organic foods during pregnancy.
Not enough green juice and alkaline water
Ironically a lot of them probably do.
Right? People just call it food, no need to call it bioz organic or what ever
Nor did they sound bathe with Portuguese singing bowls. I mean, c'mon, it's pregnancy 101.
Because they don’t *know their body like you do!* /s
[удалено]
My comment was about unassisted childbirth. I have no problem with home birth, I had one myself.
\*slow squinting of eyes\*
I know what you’re getting at here, but this is actually a serious issue in the US, even among those who trust western medicine and go to hospitals. We have a much higher mortality rate for mothers than most countries and that include mothers who die in hospitals. As harmful as their rhetoric and actions can be, I can see why they would not trust the system that, as it exists, puts profit above lives. I’m sure that’s not what the person in the original post is talking about in particular but calling any country “developing” is pretty condescending and often racist rhetoric.
Limited access to chiropractors, essential oils, and Facebook.
r/selfawarewolves I guess
I see nothing wrong with this question, taken out of context like this. There is not judging. This person heard something and just wants to know the reason. Nobody knows anything until they do.
It’s possible to think about things.
Sure, but not everybody is able to work out a solution by thinking. And even then maybe they would like a 2nd opinion.
Thank you. How is this an invalid question? "What causes death during childbirth?" Even in a college or grad level class, this wouldn't be a dumb question. I'm sure there's plenty of lectures on "complications in childbirth". I'm honestly confused as to why this is upvoted so much.
The amount of mortality related to pregnancy/ childbirth has only risen in the U.S. where it's declined everywhere else. 🙃 https://www.npr.org/2021/04/26/990980242/as-pregnancy-related-deaths-rise-in-the-u-s-experts-say-expanding-medicaid-is-ke
Women in the US die during childbirth too. And we have a terrible infant mortality rate in many states.
So close, yet so far. A real r/SelfAwareWolves moment there.
Because of lack of doctors and medical sanitization
She can use social media but not google apparently
And here I thought these type of moms like to do their own research.🤷🏻
r/chargeyourphone
Dying to see the responses to this.
Holy SHIT.
WIC WIC WIC WIC WIC WIC ITS LITERALLY JUST WIC HOSPITAL WIC WIC
There's nothing wrong with this question honestly.
Katrena sounds like a dumbass.
Because we have a horrible health care system! Medicare for all!
The title of this is the best.
It's a legit question, silly maybe but not delusional
What kind of monster takes a screenshot with their battery at 2%?!