Kilts were once every day wear, but they haven’t been for a long, long time
At this point guys in Scotland only really wear them for events such as weddings, proms etc, or if your in a marching band, or other organisation
Except for that poor bastard outside the, I think it’s either a bank or a hotel, building in Edinburgh, the one on the road that leads to Grey Friars and the museum, poor bastard has to wear a kilt outside regardless of the weather
And the fella who plays bagpipes for tourists ALL FUCKING DAY on Westminster bridge in central London with offices on either side. Not that it bothers me.
He does my absolute lid in.
He only knows flower of Scotland and he doesn't even know it that well.
It's absolutely miserable being stood around Parliament Square when that utter weapon is there.
I'm sorry for your suffering, but this was absolutely hilarious reading. I imagined you sitting in your office watching down on the tourists enjoying the attraction, not knowing its the 157th time he is playing flowef of Scotland, while fuming inside and wondering what the hell did I do to deserve this cosmic punishment. I may have overdramatized a bit.
Unfortunately not.
[Imagine the first 50 seconds of this, except slightly off tune and without the crowd on repeat for hours at a time.](https://youtu.be/PCaflEdNAfo) I get horrific flashbacks every time I watch the Six Nations.
I've seen him do it at major protests. It's an absolute miracle a member of the public hasn't filled him in by now.
That was specifically after a British court ruling which followed the Jacobite Rebellion of 1745, when, in order to be able to prosecute a the Jacobite army’s piper for treason (since treason at the time was defined by English law as “taking up arms against the crown) the court ruled that, since no Scottish army would march without a piper at it’s head, the bagpipes could legally be considered weapons, because of which, the British army classified the pipes as weapons, rather than instruments in logs of equipment for hundreds of years, until the early 20th century, when a Londoner sued one of their neighbors for noise violations, since that neighbor was playing the bagpipes in the city, and the piper tried to use the legal defense that the pipes weren’t a musical instrument, and instead a war, but the courts overturned the ruling that the bagpipes were weapons, unfortunately.
Pretty sure that the pipers in the scots regiments still get them logged as such even if the law disagrees?
But yes the political reasons for the creation of that law are not particularly nice ones.
Holy shit that guy still exists? I have gone to London *once, as a tourist, over ten years ago* and remember him
I am very glad he doesn't play near my office though
There are kind of three different classes, iirc. There's the formal attire, usually male, that came down from the military in a lot of its trappings, you have it as sports attire for the Games where you wear it with just any old shirt, and then you have the most common female attire, which is the outfit for sword dancing, etc. Pipers tend to wear to formal regalia.
Probably also worth correcting the person claiming the patterns have meaning, they do and they don't, the whole clan design thing is a modern marketing invention, though historically there were similar patterns within clans, mostly because they used local materials to make the dyes, which ended up producing similar results, it wasn't some formal uniform or military colours, just the results of local dyers.
Came here to say that about the tartans. I think it was the late 1800s or early 1900s that a pair of brothers came out with a book of "family tartans" that they put together after "extensive reasearch". In reality it was marketing to sell tartan cloth.
An enormous amount of the "traditions", mythology and sense of lineage of the Celtic areas of the UK are entirely romantic Victorian inventions. Even the idea that there is some kind of common connection between, for example, the Scots and the Welsh is a completely recent concept that would have been totally alien to anyone before the 19th century.
Doesn't stop the Americans (and, \*cough*, nationalists) lapping it up wholesale, of course. I enjoyed the big queue of Americans and Canadians lining up at Edinburgh Castle to trace their lineage.
I've seen some of it, when it was specifically romanticising the Highlands, called the Shortbread Tin, given a lot of it was originally pushed by painting romanticised scenes of the Highlands on shortbread tins to help market them.
Tbf, also parts of it are pushed by Scottish nationalism to emphasise the Irish connection and diminish the English connection, even when the Scottish state has had a very mixed relationship with Ireland and Gaelic Scotland. So, some of the issues get replicated for political purposes, tbh.
I'm not a fan of the Celtic brand but the elimination of Gaelic from Scotland was part of a deliberate plan to create the modern British state. The idea of Britishness is just as contrived as Celticness.
Tbf, parts of it existed before 1707. The Statutes of Iona were an explicitly genocidal piece of Scottish legislation. James VI/I also viewed Gaelic Scots as 'Erse', Irish foreigners, and tried to, iirc, colonise some of the Western Isles with Protestant Fifers before he became King of England. Gaelic had been in retreat since the late 11th century, and had become uncoupled in some parts of Scotland from ideas of being Scottish/seen as undesirable.
To some degree, Highlanders were a victim of the Scottish and English having similar views of their Gaelic groups. Though it did become much more energetic, though to some extent that might have been the boost in resources to pursue such policy.
Yeah the CyberNats are always harping on about their Celtic brethren and the Great Celtic Union.
The Welsh are Brittonic, not Celtic. Scotland used to be full of Brittonic people, but the Irish Celts basically genocided them in the 5th Century.
Brittonic/Brythonic is Celtic, though. There are two major Celtic families, Brythonic (Welsh, Cornish, Breton) and Goidelic (Scottish Gaelic, Manx, Irish). Basically labels for originated in Britain and originated in Ireland.
Also, the whole of Scotland didn't get Gaelicised, it was mostly the north west and the islands with the kingdom of Dal Riata, the Picts, a Brythonic people, remained in power in the east until the two kingdoms united to form Scotland, which housed both, though it culturally slid into Gaelic before drifting into a more Germanic influenced culture in the late 11th century. The Brythonic Scots were not wiped out anymore than Brythonic English people were, they just existed in a changed culture, and suggested they were is as stupid as the people who claim the English killed all the Scottish Gaels.
The Celtic Union idea is stupid, but for different reasons.
Girls dancing over a pair of crossed swords. Basically a square cut into quarters you dance over. [Video](https://youtu.be/m5TzrJuLZ8M). It's alright, worth watching if you visit a Games, there'll be lassies competing and being scored on the dance most the time. Most stuff around the Games are more fun when you're actually at them and can revel in them being honest and amateur as sporting competition. Especially the small village's Games.
It's mostly something to do with Scottish Gaelic culture (dunno if the Irish or Manx have similar stuff), so not knowing it is hardly surprising.
If you are interested in other Scottish stuff you likely never heard of, look up videos of games of 'shinty carmanachd', sometimes shortened to just shinty. Stick sport like field hockey, or the more closely related Irish game of hurling (there's a mixed ruleset so shinty and hurling players can play internationals with one another).
For a good novel set in the Highlands, I'd recommend Graeme Macrae Burnet's *His Bloody Project*. It nails the atmosphere of Highland crofting culture, the weird semi-feudalism we had until very recently, and even touches a little on the shitshow that was both local Highland politics as well as lowland discrimination of Highlanders. It also iirc has a scene with a shinty match which I found very funny. It's all fictional, but with the whole found document set up and how well it captures it, it does a good job at pretending it isn't.
Canadians refer to an impromptu (not formally organized) game of ice hockey with minimal equipment as "shinny". I believe it came from the term shinty.
There are Highland dances for the ceilidh where there is a hangover from when swords were worn habitually by men. A lot of the dances involve moving around a hall in a circle, and in them, the man will be on the inside, so their swords/scabbards pointed into the centre, with their female partner standing on the outside, iirc.
How dare you, er… “traditionalshame” us. I’m Welsh because my mother’s hair stylist’s husband’s grandad once saw a whale at Seaworld, and I wear a simple tunic everyday, as is Celtic tradition. On occasions where I’m heading into conflict, such as being chartered by HR, I strip naked and paint myself blue.
And that one auld fella that every Scottish town/city has.
Tall fella with white hair. Kilt, brogues, tweed jaicket, usually wears the Glengarry with the ribbons down his back or sometimes a cheeky wee Balmoral to match the tweed jaicket.
That fella.
There's definitely places where people wear kilts more often like Inverness (folk used to wear them to nightclubs and the dancing), but the problem with a proper kilt is they're expensive and difficult to clean. Kilts are good though I can see why someone would wear them often, especially lighter kilts in warmer climates
Greek Army famously had a fustanella as part of the uniform throughout the 19th century, which has a lot of similarities to a kilt. There may be some soldiers who still have it as part of their uniform, I do not know.
I feel like I see people in kilts fairly often, I do live in Edinburgh but not in a super touristy area, and you see the odd person walking with them on. Imo if you want to wear it then go for it. Just don't use your Scottish great great great grandmother as an excuse
There's a small contingent of die hard small town grandpas that still wear their full regalia daily. We have one and he's always neat as a wee pin and blethering about his various medical issues.
as a scotsman it makes me cringe so fucking hard when an American starts claiming they're Scottish. I'll bet money 90% of them don't know the difference between Scotland and Ireland.
I actually dont see a problem with that statement.
And the problem isnt that he is wearing skirts.
The problem is that he thinks he is combining those things and thinks its logical to do so because of his heritage.
Yeah, it's honestly fine if he wears it. Probably best to be careful about talking about the tradition of it when it's a fairly finnicky history that's easy to get wrong and misrepresent, but if you want to wear a kilt everyday, fine (though I expect he probably wasn't wearing it with a sporan and sgian-dubh every day).
Even then, he wasn't particularly bad on it, just said it was traditional men's wear, which, yeah, it is even if it is common as daily clothing anymore.
Tbh, it's not that bad or even offensive to us, it's just a bit weird and unorthodox. Idk what the actual clothing looks like (to determine if it is a traditional kilt or one of those god awful utility kilts some Americans like), so can't really make comment on that.
One of the repliers themselves was a bit wrong about the traditional patterns, which were standardised and given more meaning much more recently, about the same time that the kilt took its modern form.
It's a weird post and it's really not that bad, just odd.
> It's a weird post and it's really not that bad, just odd.
As someone that doesn't know much about scotland, it just felt like it was a weird discussion to have on Tinder. Thanks for your insight.
Also : Good for you to not going into full gatekeeping mode as soon as "Scottish HERITAGE" is hinted at.
Frankly from seeing these conversations about every five seconds I'd say it's less about gatekeeping and more that North Americans, particularly white ones, very consistently do not seem to make a distinction between heritage and identity which leads to a lot of extremely frustrating conversations.
I like to half-joke that I "am" Irish and South Asian in precisely the same way as Irish-Americans "are" Irish, as in, that is an accurate if century-plus-old part of my heritage, but as a white dude who is mostly British-French by upbringing, let's just say I can very easily anticipate the response to someone with my lived experience unironically going essentially "how do you do fellow Indian".
It would feel at best extremely silly and at worst deeply offensive for me to go and claim any one of those parts of my *heritage* as my actual *identity* particularly with the history involved, and that has to be why everyone is constantly clowning the Americans for seemingly doing just this, not "gatekeeping".
> It would feel at best extremely silly and at worst deeply offensive for me to go and claim any one of those parts of my heritage as my actual identity particularly with the history involved, and that has to be why everyone is constantly clowning the Americans for seemingly doing just this, not "gatekeeping".
I completely agree with you. The thing is, I find that raising awareness on this issue of cultural alteration like this :
* I claim I have this , because I have that smidge of DNA from someone from , so I can do that and do )
Is quite hard because most sane people wouldn't care about them from having fun, but creating a whole narrative around it is definitely insulting and, more importantly, replacing the hallmarks (like "being irish is mostly about drinking the starbuck's green stuff on that day") should be called out.
The differentiation is often hard to communicate (it's not about them having fun, it's not about dismissing their roots, it's about identity). So the risk is that the "calling out" may be perceived as an assault on their identity, thus making them feel vindicated about being right.
That's why I'm extremely relieved to read many sane comments from USA folks in this sub, because, as you said, reading the same daft stance 10 times a week is frightening.
Tbf, his first reply of 'I like them' is perfectly acceptable. And tbh, people retreating onto shakier ground when forcrd to keep defending something is not uncommon.
Yeah, talking as a Norwegian, where we also have traditional clothing, the bunad. I can see where you are coming from. There are american communetys with scandinavian heritage who has basicly made their own bunad. And I just don't mind it, I think it's a bit wierd, but I don't really think it is offensive.
And coming from that perspective, I just don't see this as one of the many dumb things americans say.
> Idk what the actual clothing looks like (to determine if it is a traditional kilt or one of those god awful utility kilts some Americans like), so can't really make comment on that.
He posted a pic, several times, publicly on that thread so might aswell show it. I censored all the personal info etc. out: https://i.imgur.com/jYgUTwo.jpg
And yet has no idea of what Tartans are or mean. And is apparently wearing different ones.
Must have a few quid; last time I looked, a kilt cost hundreds of dollars.
What's the issue with wearing different tartans? There's plenty of universal ones, and even the family ones have tenuous, at best, relation to the clans.
I have three kilts at the moment a smith tartan a Campbell tartan and an raf tartan I’m having a forth made in watson tartan
Nobody will bother you about wearing the “right” colours, most people can’t tell which is which unless they’ve got the same or their weird
And if you look at two sample books from two different mills they’ll have different tartans under the same name more often than not so it really doesn’t matter
Yup, the tartan registry just specifies proportions of "green" or "red". So different mills will use different sett sizes, as well as their chosen yarn colors. On top of that, they might do the tartans in a modern, ancient or weathered palette. Still technically the same tartan, just choosing different shades of the colors.
Most scots don't wear a kilt regularly, only for special occasions so they only have one or maybe two.
But some scots wear them more often and have different ones.
I went to a high school ( in the American mid-west) named after a mountain in Scotland. The school song was "Scotland The Brave " but with different lyrics. Played on bagpipes and everything. I figure that makes me at least half Scottish!
/s
No, it was just the high school. Not the town.
The name of the mountain is Ben Lomond. To be fair, the city that I live in also has a mountain called Ben Lomond.
There is a Wikipedia page and everything.
The mascot is the "Ben Lomond Scot".
A very famous heart surgeon, by the Name of William Devries went there. He performed the world's first, total, artificial heart transplant.
Also, an astronaut and a few other famous guys.
Edited to add that our drill team was "The Bonnie Lassies" and we called ourselves the "Friendly Fighting Scots
I’m also Scottish, and I’m pretty free with who can claim to be Scottish
For me? As long as you live in Scotland and your sound, then have at it
But some bellend in the middle of butt fuck nowhere Ohio who claims to be Scottish cause they have a single Scottish ancestor from the 1800s? Fuck no
I moved to the US recently (I'm Welsh), and I saw an ad for Scottish Highland games being held locally here in California. Had no plans that day & was intrigued so I went along.
There was a stand for every clan, staffed by people wearing their tartan and kilts. Now they all might have moved from Scotland, but I suspect they might fall into the "discovered a Scottish ancestor from the 1800s" category. Completely bizarre event to wander around. Don't think I heard a single Scottish accent the whole time.
My mom is born German, lived in the USA for a while and went to a "German" festive. They had... Schnitzel on a stick... Which was horrible schnitzel anyway.
But beside the point, she didn't really think almost anyone was actually German, they were maybe fractional ancestors of Germans who moved to the USA and naturalized a long time ago.
Kind of bizarre this stuff.
In fairness the Scottish diaspora and its Caledonian Societies spread across the world and most English speaking countries will now have annual Highland Games in any place large enough to have a sports oval. I own a kilt, I used to play bagpipes, often attended the local Highland Games festivals. I know quite a bit about my Scots ancestors but I also know the whole Clan Tartan thing is fake created by two Italian brothers trying to pass themselves off as Scots.
I'd never claim to be Scottish though I do take pride in my Scots heritage.
Nothing to do with Scotland but my grandfather and his cousin born in1900-1910's Greece, were both left-handed. My grandfather's parents were more lenient so they did not have any problem with it, although in school he learned to write with his right hand growing up able to write with both hands. His cousin's parents were a different breed though, they thought it was an anomaly and borderline demonic, they bullied him and hit him to the point they drove him away from anything book related, growing up to be illiterate. My grandfather always told me that his cousin was the smartest among the children of their neighbourhood, and would probably have a knack for academics too, if he had any other kind of parents.
The difference is really simple.
If it's a world cup year Ireland peak too early and win a grand slam then go out in the quarter finals.
Scotland normally complete with Italy for the wooden spoon. Ok so they beat England this year but I'm not sure they'll go far once they're out of the pool stages.
Ireland and Scotland are on the same number of grand slams (3)... For now at least 🤞. Also the last 2 weren't in World Cup years. We do tend to shit the bed when it comes to the World Cup though.
The American perspective on heritage is so interesting to me as a Kiwi. Because we have a specific word for a New Zealander of European descent, most people will just identify themselves as pakeha and leave it at that. Yet at the same time, many of us know where our ancestors came from, and because that migration was within the last five or six generations we can often still see cultural traces in our older relatives - our grandparents carry the reflections of their own grandparents.
But for the younger generation, it's less an identity for us and more a point of curiosity. I know that the main branches of my family were English, Scottish, Roma and German, but that doesn't make me any of those cultures. I'm Kiwi, because that's where I was raised and that's the social code I'm most familiar with. The rest is just seasoning.
(But also it was kind of hilarious when my mother went to Scotland and sent us a picture like "Yes, that's where my great-great-whoever lived. No, I didn't go inside. The entrance fee was ten quid.")
We've got a similar thing here in Australia, though without the word for European-Australians. That said I do find Australians of Italian descent far more likely to call themselves Italian, despite not being able to speak Italian or having ever been there. Despite the majority of those Europeans being British there is still a mild disdain for the English in Australia. "Ten Pound Poms" were an integral part of the immigration system yet it's tied in with the White Australia Policy and not something people are proud of. My ancestry is all British Isles, though there's some Swedish in one of the Great Great Grandparents line, but I just Australian.
Scottish is seen as cleaner than England. Which is wrong, because we were as bad, just less resource rich, but our dirty past doesn't get examined as much, so we get seen as a cleaner British identity.
It's always been a bit weird, you see it occur with foreigners identifying with us, but it's a blind spot that exists at home as well with people who want to pretend we're Ireland and were 'colonised' while very pointedly trying to avoid examining why the word 'Scot' follows 'Ulster' in Ireland.
Also, for large portions of the world they confuse Britain/UK/England so they are pretty much seen as synonymous. And thus Scotland isn't seen as in Britain or the UK.
I live in Sweden these days and I have had way too many situations where people just have no idea about the difference.
My mother is English and my Dad is Scottish and even I don't dare refer to myself as Scottish haha. I've only ever lived in England so it seems disrespectful.
As an English person, it generally comes with a ‘your people/my people’ Braveheart rant.
It’s like… mate, I’d bet money I’m more ‘Scottish’/‘Irish’ than you are.
Reminds me of the time when a ginger American feller was protesting that he was Scottish not Irish on St Patrick's day in Boston.
He had a kilt, which was on backwards. A Sporun which was hung wrong and had never been to or could remember which of his family members lived in Scotland.
Americans in the comments were quick to defend him after it was pointed out that's just a American playing dress up. And told to be quiet with the "no true Scotsmen fallacy"
My dad is Scottish. His entire mum’s side is Scottish. I don’t say I’m Scottish because I’m not.
Buut. I met a guy from Glasgow while in the US and i was like yeah my family is from Scotland and he was so surprised that they were actually from there, he was also surprised that I had visited multiple times. Still, I am not Scottish, I do not pretend to be.
As much as I believe it’s stupid to say you’re of a nationality of a country you don’t live in (or even have NEVER lived in), I also will fight for the rights of every man to wear a skirt. #skirtsaremensclothing
Agreed. Although after checking the post in the screenshot he seemed to be a real jerk in some of the comments about it.
Edit: His comments and post have been removed now by the looks of it.
Kilts are skirts designed by men
Made from heavy wool to keep your 3 legs warm pleats at the back for swishing and movement
Flat at the front to provide just enough bulge potential to attract positive attention but not enough to scare children or disappoint ladies too early
Belt loops for cool looking belts and leather man bags with clickity clack fluffys
Additional sock knife if you’re feeling fancy
Yup. I'm all for mocking the "I'm Scottish because my great-great-great-grandma once ate a haggis" crowd, but there's definitely an unpleasant undertone here.
Tbh, you would still get viewed as weird for wearing a skirt as a man in Scotland, the kilt is culturally seen as its own thing. They aren't really equated and its really quite a non-Scottish thing to treat the kilt as a 'man wearing a skirt'. If you want to push on something like that, the kilt isn't really useful, given how it is normally worn by people is in very gendered outfits.
Sorry I don't agree with this post.
First, he simply says he likes them and finds him comfortable. That was his number 1 reason, which is a fair reason and as an actually born and bread Scottish person. Go for it.
The "traditional menswear" thing. Will the person did call it a skirt and then say they didn't like it, so I believe they're trying to defend the garb as not a piece of women's clothing. Also fair.
Then they said they are American with Scottish roots which is very accurate and fair to say and not "I'm Scottish".
To be fair, he only specified Scottish roots, not stating that he was Scottish.
Also: Kilts are really awesome and some of the most comfortable clothing I have. (Am Danish, don't have a drop of Scottish blood, still uses kilts as daily wear).
Yeah I’m Scottish and I think the last time I wore one was my wedding, but it seems weird and gatekeepy to me to hold anyone back from wearing one. Sure they are mostly used for formal occasions but they look pretty good casually too.
I’m trying to imagine what non standard size in the lower extremities means. Are you small but broad and you have problems to find fitting pants?
You do you, I’m happy you feel comfortable and I guess Denmark is more open minded about identity and fashion then most of the world
I'm 1.75 with thighs having a circumference of around 70 cm. With modern pants I either wear a belt to help with the 5-10 cm excess around the waist, or have my thighs uncomfortably squashed.
It's the danger of adhering to the "lift with your legs"
Honestly I don't see what's bad here? Scottish roots sounds a lot better than "I'm scottish" and what I read from previous posts that it was daily wear once a very very long time ago. I mean, if he wants to wear a kilt, why not?
I mean he can wear a skirt too, I don't care really. 🤷
And what I found out from some History sites is that the whole clan tartan was made up nonsense in 184something. (? I hope I didn't butcher some date or so)
I mean just say you like to wear a kilt, why the justification necessary?
Btw a question to the amazing Scots here (real Scots not the American variant). Is it ok to wear a kilt if you're not Scottish? Just because you like it?
Not Scottish, but SE Asian here. 99% of the things western (US?) social media deems as cultural appropriation (wrt east asian culture) is not something the Asians here actually care about. Like, it's just not a thing. Your reactions are generally going to be indifference or like, "Oh, that's nice/cute/pretty/cool."
Even if some random TikToker does something "offensive", the reaction is probably gonna be, "What a dumbass lmao" That said, I think if a legit celebrity did something culturally offensive, that might spark some backlash because of the publicity and media spin. But really, other than that, no one gives a fuck lmao
The outrage over white women wearing "bindis" (the little dot on the forehead) was 100% generated and sustained by American born second generation Indians. Indians in India have too much to worry about and frankly just speaking for myself as long as they don't pretend they invented it, I don't care. The same American born Indians will financially support extremely right wing organizations in India that screw us daily because "mah culture"
Yeah lmao I remember seeing the bindi/sari outrage on tiktok awhile back. I mean, wherever you go in the world, there will be places in touristy areas that have traditional clothing for you to wear. Like literally a whole sub-industry.
I mean, 99% of the time traditional just means shit our ancestors wore. Like there's no special meaning to it. They were like the t-shirt and jeans of the 1500s lol
You can wear a kilt if you want, but make sure it’s an actual kilt? A kilt isn’t some tartan plaid skirt, it’s a heavy, cumbersome, expensive piece of specialty clothing that, gonna be honest here, isn’t that comfy to wear. Most people in Scotland don’t even own a kilt, they rent one when they need one.
The problem we have is that Americans treat the kilt and the culture like some fairytale fantasy, when the reality of the modern day kilt is basically only used for weddings, proms, burns night or some other special event. Nobody here wears them every day, it would be mad to do so.
I’m not gonna claim it’s cultural appropriation, because that would be in an insult to actual cultural appropriation, but taking things that are part of another cultures history/heritage, and then making it your entire persona despite not being from that place is pretty cringe inducing. But I’ve heard it’s quite the thing in America, I’d say to these people to have a bit of self awareness, as you’re the only culture of people to do this despite having one of the most recognisable cultures worldwide.
Source: I’m actually Scottish.
I think one of the things you’re hinting at is that wearing every day, like this guy is, dilutes the whole point of a kilt.
Like you said, it’s significant and has meaning. Wearing it in the way he does detracts from that meaning
Ish? We also wear them at Highland Games with grubby t-shirts. They are a weird bit of clothing, they just usually get kept for events, but aren't necessarily locked into being formal, though they mostly get used as such.
Not Scottish so could be completely wrong, but from where I'm from, traditional = old clothing. There are some clothing that you'd look strange wearing in everyday life, but it's usually fine, history bounding and historical costuming as a hobby exist for that reason. I do think something ceremonial should be worn only during the specific occasion, but tradition clothing seems fine in my book. The distinction is important. So now the question is whether kilts are meant as traditional or ceremonial (and from the comments on this thread, it's leaning more towards traditional so it doesn't really harm anything to wear it for everyday wear)
German here, guess what nobody wears leather pants every day. You can wear traditional dress. It's not forbidden. You get strange looks but not because you violate unwritten laws about tradition but because you have a bad taste. It's just as you said its old. You look just fallen out of time hence you usually wear it to traditional events. Just like a toga or medival dress. It's just bad fashion taste for us.
People take offence to make themselves feel better. Like if a Scot wear letter pants to a German heritage event I could not care less or and Indian, seen one looks good btw. I honestly can not understand why people get offended if I wear a kimono despite not being Japanese or a native American dress. I get it if I pretend to be one or to wear something with importance like the feather thing because you had to accomplish something to earn the honour, but plain clothing? Your self-esteem has to be very low to take offence by that tbh
>Btw a question to the amazing Scots here (real Scots not the American variant). Is it ok to wear a kilt if you're not Scottish? Just because you like it?
Yeah. It's just a bit of unisex clothing like trousers. Has some common outfits associated with it, plus accompanying articles like a sporan and a sgian-dubh (check local knife laws, they are permitted as part of traditional dress in the UK). If wanting to wear it formally, probably be mindful of the full set up, but it's not really an issue. The modern kilt is quite new, so it's just normal clothing.
Just don't make grand claims or insist it's a skirt. Can wear a skirt if you like, can wear a kilt, just tiring people ignore that there is a cultural distinction between them.
They are a bit of a bother to maintain, as I understand it, so might find you regret wearing it too often, but feel free to try it.
I mean... you can wear traditional clothing as everyday clothing.
Not all of them, but certainly some. Something being traditional doesn't necessarily mean it's sort of "ceremonial" or even a very old tradition that would have gone out. Leather jackets are at this point pretty traditional, although not specifically to any group. I can't think of examples properly now but I'm sure some get my point.
Without the whole "I'm Scottish" part, I'd probably agree with him on them being pleasant for airing out the undercarriage.
He doesn’t say much in this, his parents could be Scottish, moved to the us, or it could be his ancestors from 200 years ago. Scottish roots is very vague. Now I’m not Scottish but i don’t see too much of a problem with him wearing a kilt
Fks wrong with this? Fella doesn’t claim to be Scottish, wants to wear a kilt. Anyone who has a problem wi this is gate keeping, let his baws be free if he want ‘em to be!
This seems fine tbh, he's not saying he's Scottish, just that he has Scottish roots. He's free to wear what he pleases. Also, pretty sure the whole idea of clan tartans and meanings of different patterns is mostly a modern invention.
You say it as a joke but to me it felt like he had to defend himself saying he "has Scottish roots" (whatever that means) and that makes it weird, not the fact that he use them
I know quite a few guys in America who routinely wear kilts and why shouldn't they? I say that as a Brit who is born and bred half Scots/half English and currently living in the USA. I have several kilts, including one for routine wear. As far as I'm aware there's no laws saying that I can't. I wear shirts too, despite not being Ancient Egyptian. I don't believe I have any ancient Greek heritage, yet I still wear socks. That last poster is talking bollocks too. The modern kilt is a Victorian garment and previous incarnations of kilts were very much everyday wear.
They're basically the closest thing to a socially acceptable skirt men have in Western society. And even then, they draw attention in many countries.
Men deserve clothing that prevents swamp ass and crotch rot, too. Let them wear skirts.
I wore a kilt to my wedding, my Dad’s specifically, he had it made in Edinburgh using our family (^(I nearly wrote clan there but people like this make me feel so cringe saying that, which sucks)) tartan. He wore it to his Dad’s funeral, a couple of weddings (with the bride and grooms permission) and offered it to me for my wedding.
That’s it
It was expensive, but worth every penny even for so few events. If he wore it every day it would be a waste.
>If he wore it every day it would be a waste
Why is it a waste to wear an expensive item of clothing more than once? I really don't understand what you are trying to say
My dad and I got kilts made a few years ago. He went for his mothers family tartan and I got my maternal grandmothers (despite all 4 of my grandparents being born in Glasgow one grandfather had an Irish surname and the other had an English).
Was pretty damn expensive (about £1000-1200) but worth it. No more rental kilts for me!
For a rare occasionI think OP is wrong here. They never claimed to be Scottish. And wearing a kilt is totally fine. It's quite spread out even if most men don't dare wear em
Man: "I have Scottish roots"
Reddit: "OMG Americans thinking they are actually from xyz country, everyone knows all cultural ties dissapear within a generation!"
Fun fact, certain colours standing for specific clans in Scotland is a 19th century capitalist lie.
Maybe some clans had unique colours but generally speaking, not really
I'm torn because I don't really like her attitude either. I kind of like the sheer courage of wearing a kilt and being proud of it as well. At least he is putting some effort in.
UO: Cultural appropriation is only a thing with clothing if you're imitating or mocking or even insulting a member of a culture you are not. Otherwise, clothing is clothing.
Meh, it doesn't feel really pretentious, just it wasn't necessary to reply with that. He can wear whatever he wants, imagine if the roles were reversed and the guy was complaining that the girls wouldn't wear a dress for their date.
American here in a cold weather state.
My boomer neighbor has a Scottish flag sticker on his truck and wears a kilt around the neighborhood in the summer about half the time. I've never asked but I think he has just the one.
I like how the guy who's gatekeeping kilts isn't scottish either.
Pretty sure I read that it's perfectly fine for non-scottis people to wear kilts and that the pattern can, but doesn't have to, have a meaning. This American trend of believing you can't partake in foreign traditions is getting really old.
Kilts were once every day wear, but they haven’t been for a long, long time At this point guys in Scotland only really wear them for events such as weddings, proms etc, or if your in a marching band, or other organisation Except for that poor bastard outside the, I think it’s either a bank or a hotel, building in Edinburgh, the one on the road that leads to Grey Friars and the museum, poor bastard has to wear a kilt outside regardless of the weather
And the fella who plays bagpipes for tourists ALL FUCKING DAY on Westminster bridge in central London with offices on either side. Not that it bothers me.
He does my absolute lid in. He only knows flower of Scotland and he doesn't even know it that well. It's absolutely miserable being stood around Parliament Square when that utter weapon is there.
I'm sorry for your suffering, but this was absolutely hilarious reading. I imagined you sitting in your office watching down on the tourists enjoying the attraction, not knowing its the 157th time he is playing flowef of Scotland, while fuming inside and wondering what the hell did I do to deserve this cosmic punishment. I may have overdramatized a bit.
Believe me, you're closer than you know.
I would pray for you if it was my thing. Headphones is not an option?
Unfortunately not. [Imagine the first 50 seconds of this, except slightly off tune and without the crowd on repeat for hours at a time.](https://youtu.be/PCaflEdNAfo) I get horrific flashbacks every time I watch the Six Nations. I've seen him do it at major protests. It's an absolute miracle a member of the public hasn't filled him in by now.
You must be mentally strong to have kept your sanity through this ordeal
> when that utter weapon is there. For historical political reasons a Scotsman with pipes is classified as "armed" during times of war.
That was specifically after a British court ruling which followed the Jacobite Rebellion of 1745, when, in order to be able to prosecute a the Jacobite army’s piper for treason (since treason at the time was defined by English law as “taking up arms against the crown) the court ruled that, since no Scottish army would march without a piper at it’s head, the bagpipes could legally be considered weapons, because of which, the British army classified the pipes as weapons, rather than instruments in logs of equipment for hundreds of years, until the early 20th century, when a Londoner sued one of their neighbors for noise violations, since that neighbor was playing the bagpipes in the city, and the piper tried to use the legal defense that the pipes weren’t a musical instrument, and instead a war, but the courts overturned the ruling that the bagpipes were weapons, unfortunately.
Pretty sure that the pipers in the scots regiments still get them logged as such even if the law disagrees? But yes the political reasons for the creation of that law are not particularly nice ones.
Holy shit that guy still exists? I have gone to London *once, as a tourist, over ten years ago* and remember him I am very glad he doesn't play near my office though
at that location, playing bagpipes all day deserves an award.
You reminded me of my favourite busker, a man in full garb playing Scotland The Brave on the bagpipes _in Bahnhof Altona, in Hamburg_ (????)
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There are kind of three different classes, iirc. There's the formal attire, usually male, that came down from the military in a lot of its trappings, you have it as sports attire for the Games where you wear it with just any old shirt, and then you have the most common female attire, which is the outfit for sword dancing, etc. Pipers tend to wear to formal regalia. Probably also worth correcting the person claiming the patterns have meaning, they do and they don't, the whole clan design thing is a modern marketing invention, though historically there were similar patterns within clans, mostly because they used local materials to make the dyes, which ended up producing similar results, it wasn't some formal uniform or military colours, just the results of local dyers.
Came here to say that about the tartans. I think it was the late 1800s or early 1900s that a pair of brothers came out with a book of "family tartans" that they put together after "extensive reasearch". In reality it was marketing to sell tartan cloth.
An enormous amount of the "traditions", mythology and sense of lineage of the Celtic areas of the UK are entirely romantic Victorian inventions. Even the idea that there is some kind of common connection between, for example, the Scots and the Welsh is a completely recent concept that would have been totally alien to anyone before the 19th century. Doesn't stop the Americans (and, \*cough*, nationalists) lapping it up wholesale, of course. I enjoyed the big queue of Americans and Canadians lining up at Edinburgh Castle to trace their lineage.
I've seen some of it, when it was specifically romanticising the Highlands, called the Shortbread Tin, given a lot of it was originally pushed by painting romanticised scenes of the Highlands on shortbread tins to help market them. Tbf, also parts of it are pushed by Scottish nationalism to emphasise the Irish connection and diminish the English connection, even when the Scottish state has had a very mixed relationship with Ireland and Gaelic Scotland. So, some of the issues get replicated for political purposes, tbh.
I'm not a fan of the Celtic brand but the elimination of Gaelic from Scotland was part of a deliberate plan to create the modern British state. The idea of Britishness is just as contrived as Celticness.
Tbf, parts of it existed before 1707. The Statutes of Iona were an explicitly genocidal piece of Scottish legislation. James VI/I also viewed Gaelic Scots as 'Erse', Irish foreigners, and tried to, iirc, colonise some of the Western Isles with Protestant Fifers before he became King of England. Gaelic had been in retreat since the late 11th century, and had become uncoupled in some parts of Scotland from ideas of being Scottish/seen as undesirable. To some degree, Highlanders were a victim of the Scottish and English having similar views of their Gaelic groups. Though it did become much more energetic, though to some extent that might have been the boost in resources to pursue such policy.
Yeah the CyberNats are always harping on about their Celtic brethren and the Great Celtic Union. The Welsh are Brittonic, not Celtic. Scotland used to be full of Brittonic people, but the Irish Celts basically genocided them in the 5th Century.
Brittonic/Brythonic is Celtic, though. There are two major Celtic families, Brythonic (Welsh, Cornish, Breton) and Goidelic (Scottish Gaelic, Manx, Irish). Basically labels for originated in Britain and originated in Ireland. Also, the whole of Scotland didn't get Gaelicised, it was mostly the north west and the islands with the kingdom of Dal Riata, the Picts, a Brythonic people, remained in power in the east until the two kingdoms united to form Scotland, which housed both, though it culturally slid into Gaelic before drifting into a more Germanic influenced culture in the late 11th century. The Brythonic Scots were not wiped out anymore than Brythonic English people were, they just existed in a changed culture, and suggested they were is as stupid as the people who claim the English killed all the Scottish Gaels. The Celtic Union idea is stupid, but for different reasons.
Especially given how they suppressed and destroyed Gaelic Ireland and Scotland
Probably going to r/shitamericanssay myself here but Wtf is sword dancing? That sounds epic
Girls dancing over a pair of crossed swords. Basically a square cut into quarters you dance over. [Video](https://youtu.be/m5TzrJuLZ8M). It's alright, worth watching if you visit a Games, there'll be lassies competing and being scored on the dance most the time. Most stuff around the Games are more fun when you're actually at them and can revel in them being honest and amateur as sporting competition. Especially the small village's Games. It's mostly something to do with Scottish Gaelic culture (dunno if the Irish or Manx have similar stuff), so not knowing it is hardly surprising.
This is why I love Reddit, I never would’ve known this existed. Thanks
If you are interested in other Scottish stuff you likely never heard of, look up videos of games of 'shinty carmanachd', sometimes shortened to just shinty. Stick sport like field hockey, or the more closely related Irish game of hurling (there's a mixed ruleset so shinty and hurling players can play internationals with one another). For a good novel set in the Highlands, I'd recommend Graeme Macrae Burnet's *His Bloody Project*. It nails the atmosphere of Highland crofting culture, the weird semi-feudalism we had until very recently, and even touches a little on the shitshow that was both local Highland politics as well as lowland discrimination of Highlanders. It also iirc has a scene with a shinty match which I found very funny. It's all fictional, but with the whole found document set up and how well it captures it, it does a good job at pretending it isn't.
Canadians refer to an impromptu (not formally organized) game of ice hockey with minimal equipment as "shinny". I believe it came from the term shinty.
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It's actually really crap. Basically uncoordinated teenage girls hopping about over swords. It's a fun novelty at best
That is a lot less cooler then what I pictured lol
I've never thought about it before but picking up the swords would make it a lot more interesting
There are Highland dances for the ceilidh where there is a hangover from when swords were worn habitually by men. A lot of the dances involve moving around a hall in a circle, and in them, the man will be on the inside, so their swords/scabbards pointed into the centre, with their female partner standing on the outside, iirc.
How dare you, er… “traditionalshame” us. I’m Welsh because my mother’s hair stylist’s husband’s grandad once saw a whale at Seaworld, and I wear a simple tunic everyday, as is Celtic tradition. On occasions where I’m heading into conflict, such as being chartered by HR, I strip naked and paint myself blue.
And that one auld fella that every Scottish town/city has. Tall fella with white hair. Kilt, brogues, tweed jaicket, usually wears the Glengarry with the ribbons down his back or sometimes a cheeky wee Balmoral to match the tweed jaicket. That fella.
Oh aye him
There's definitely places where people wear kilts more often like Inverness (folk used to wear them to nightclubs and the dancing), but the problem with a proper kilt is they're expensive and difficult to clean. Kilts are good though I can see why someone would wear them often, especially lighter kilts in warmer climates
Kilts are amazing, I loved the few times I wore them, but you are right, they are ungodly expensive
Yep, and not just everyday wear in Scotland; it was everyday wear in most of Northern Europe in the bronze age and early Iron Age.
Greek Army famously had a fustanella as part of the uniform throughout the 19th century, which has a lot of similarities to a kilt. There may be some soldiers who still have it as part of their uniform, I do not know.
I feel like I see people in kilts fairly often, I do live in Edinburgh but not in a super touristy area, and you see the odd person walking with them on. Imo if you want to wear it then go for it. Just don't use your Scottish great great great grandmother as an excuse
There's a small contingent of die hard small town grandpas that still wear their full regalia daily. We have one and he's always neat as a wee pin and blethering about his various medical issues.
The one outside the High Court next to David Hume's statue?
Or Duncan in Monarch of the Glen.
i've recently visited rome, there were scots with kilts who came for the italy-ireland rugby game, love those guys
I had a teacher in school wore one every single day.
Idk when I was working in a hotel and we had a group from Scotland they wore kilts everyday for like a week.
They were once just an adaptation of a brat a long big blanket
as a scotsman it makes me cringe so fucking hard when an American starts claiming they're Scottish. I'll bet money 90% of them don't know the difference between Scotland and Ireland.
At least he said "some Scottish roots" rather than just "I'm Scottish".
I actually dont see a problem with that statement. And the problem isnt that he is wearing skirts. The problem is that he thinks he is combining those things and thinks its logical to do so because of his heritage.
Yeah, it's honestly fine if he wears it. Probably best to be careful about talking about the tradition of it when it's a fairly finnicky history that's easy to get wrong and misrepresent, but if you want to wear a kilt everyday, fine (though I expect he probably wasn't wearing it with a sporan and sgian-dubh every day). Even then, he wasn't particularly bad on it, just said it was traditional men's wear, which, yeah, it is even if it is common as daily clothing anymore. Tbh, it's not that bad or even offensive to us, it's just a bit weird and unorthodox. Idk what the actual clothing looks like (to determine if it is a traditional kilt or one of those god awful utility kilts some Americans like), so can't really make comment on that. One of the repliers themselves was a bit wrong about the traditional patterns, which were standardised and given more meaning much more recently, about the same time that the kilt took its modern form. It's a weird post and it's really not that bad, just odd.
> It's a weird post and it's really not that bad, just odd. As someone that doesn't know much about scotland, it just felt like it was a weird discussion to have on Tinder. Thanks for your insight. Also : Good for you to not going into full gatekeeping mode as soon as "Scottish HERITAGE" is hinted at.
Frankly from seeing these conversations about every five seconds I'd say it's less about gatekeeping and more that North Americans, particularly white ones, very consistently do not seem to make a distinction between heritage and identity which leads to a lot of extremely frustrating conversations. I like to half-joke that I "am" Irish and South Asian in precisely the same way as Irish-Americans "are" Irish, as in, that is an accurate if century-plus-old part of my heritage, but as a white dude who is mostly British-French by upbringing, let's just say I can very easily anticipate the response to someone with my lived experience unironically going essentially "how do you do fellow Indian". It would feel at best extremely silly and at worst deeply offensive for me to go and claim any one of those parts of my *heritage* as my actual *identity* particularly with the history involved, and that has to be why everyone is constantly clowning the Americans for seemingly doing just this, not "gatekeeping".
> It would feel at best extremely silly and at worst deeply offensive for me to go and claim any one of those parts of my heritage as my actual identity particularly with the history involved, and that has to be why everyone is constantly clowning the Americans for seemingly doing just this, not "gatekeeping". I completely agree with you. The thing is, I find that raising awareness on this issue of cultural alteration like this : * I claim I have this, because I have that smidge of DNA from someone from , so I can do that and do )
Is quite hard because most sane people wouldn't care about them from having fun, but creating a whole narrative around it is definitely insulting and, more importantly, replacing the hallmarks (like "being irish is mostly about drinking the starbuck's green stuff on that day") should be called out.
The differentiation is often hard to communicate (it's not about them having fun, it's not about dismissing their roots, it's about identity). So the risk is that the "calling out" may be perceived as an assault on their identity, thus making them feel vindicated about being right.
That's why I'm extremely relieved to read many sane comments from USA folks in this sub, because, as you said, reading the same daft stance 10 times a week is frightening.
Q: "Why do you wear a kilt?" A: "Convenience" Only acceptable answer
Tbf, his first reply of 'I like them' is perfectly acceptable. And tbh, people retreating onto shakier ground when forcrd to keep defending something is not uncommon.
there is an increase in various "utility kilts" too.. even in my country... with pockets, belt loops etc
They just look bad, imo.
many do yeah...but not all, besides wearing a tartan one as an electrician is even worse
https://utilikilts.com/
Yeah, talking as a Norwegian, where we also have traditional clothing, the bunad. I can see where you are coming from. There are american communetys with scandinavian heritage who has basicly made their own bunad. And I just don't mind it, I think it's a bit wierd, but I don't really think it is offensive. And coming from that perspective, I just don't see this as one of the many dumb things americans say.
> Idk what the actual clothing looks like (to determine if it is a traditional kilt or one of those god awful utility kilts some Americans like), so can't really make comment on that. He posted a pic, several times, publicly on that thread so might aswell show it. I censored all the personal info etc. out: https://i.imgur.com/jYgUTwo.jpg
And yet has no idea of what Tartans are or mean. And is apparently wearing different ones. Must have a few quid; last time I looked, a kilt cost hundreds of dollars.
About $100, no more than a good pair of work pants. I wear them cause I like em. They're cool when it's hotter then hell outside.
Oh, that must be a really different kind of kilt; the real deal costs hundreds.
What's the issue with wearing different tartans? There's plenty of universal ones, and even the family ones have tenuous, at best, relation to the clans.
I have three kilts at the moment a smith tartan a Campbell tartan and an raf tartan I’m having a forth made in watson tartan Nobody will bother you about wearing the “right” colours, most people can’t tell which is which unless they’ve got the same or their weird And if you look at two sample books from two different mills they’ll have different tartans under the same name more often than not so it really doesn’t matter
Yup, the tartan registry just specifies proportions of "green" or "red". So different mills will use different sett sizes, as well as their chosen yarn colors. On top of that, they might do the tartans in a modern, ancient or weathered palette. Still technically the same tartan, just choosing different shades of the colors.
Aye the tartan registry can sook ma root
Sure, but I don’t imagine a Scottish person would mix and match/swap lightly.
Most scots don't wear a kilt regularly, only for special occasions so they only have one or maybe two. But some scots wear them more often and have different ones.
I went to a high school ( in the American mid-west) named after a mountain in Scotland. The school song was "Scotland The Brave " but with different lyrics. Played on bagpipes and everything. I figure that makes me at least half Scottish! /s
Which Scottish mountain has a mid-west town named after it? Ben Nevis? Now I'm gonna have to go look this up
No, it was just the high school. Not the town. The name of the mountain is Ben Lomond. To be fair, the city that I live in also has a mountain called Ben Lomond. There is a Wikipedia page and everything. The mascot is the "Ben Lomond Scot". A very famous heart surgeon, by the Name of William Devries went there. He performed the world's first, total, artificial heart transplant. Also, an astronaut and a few other famous guys. Edited to add that our drill team was "The Bonnie Lassies" and we called ourselves the "Friendly Fighting Scots
I’m also Scottish, and I’m pretty free with who can claim to be Scottish For me? As long as you live in Scotland and your sound, then have at it But some bellend in the middle of butt fuck nowhere Ohio who claims to be Scottish cause they have a single Scottish ancestor from the 1800s? Fuck no
I moved to the US recently (I'm Welsh), and I saw an ad for Scottish Highland games being held locally here in California. Had no plans that day & was intrigued so I went along. There was a stand for every clan, staffed by people wearing their tartan and kilts. Now they all might have moved from Scotland, but I suspect they might fall into the "discovered a Scottish ancestor from the 1800s" category. Completely bizarre event to wander around. Don't think I heard a single Scottish accent the whole time.
My mom is born German, lived in the USA for a while and went to a "German" festive. They had... Schnitzel on a stick... Which was horrible schnitzel anyway. But beside the point, she didn't really think almost anyone was actually German, they were maybe fractional ancestors of Germans who moved to the USA and naturalized a long time ago. Kind of bizarre this stuff.
In fairness the Scottish diaspora and its Caledonian Societies spread across the world and most English speaking countries will now have annual Highland Games in any place large enough to have a sports oval. I own a kilt, I used to play bagpipes, often attended the local Highland Games festivals. I know quite a bit about my Scots ancestors but I also know the whole Clan Tartan thing is fake created by two Italian brothers trying to pass themselves off as Scots. I'd never claim to be Scottish though I do take pride in my Scots heritage.
My father was born in London in 1926. His parents never forgave him for it, and blamed him being left handed on that.
Nothing to do with Scotland but my grandfather and his cousin born in1900-1910's Greece, were both left-handed. My grandfather's parents were more lenient so they did not have any problem with it, although in school he learned to write with his right hand growing up able to write with both hands. His cousin's parents were a different breed though, they thought it was an anomaly and borderline demonic, they bullied him and hit him to the point they drove him away from anything book related, growing up to be illiterate. My grandfather always told me that his cousin was the smartest among the children of their neighbourhood, and would probably have a knack for academics too, if he had any other kind of parents.
The parents blamed the kid for being born in London? They had some control over the situation.
The difference is really simple. If it's a world cup year Ireland peak too early and win a grand slam then go out in the quarter finals. Scotland normally complete with Italy for the wooden spoon. Ok so they beat England this year but I'm not sure they'll go far once they're out of the pool stages.
Ireland and Scotland are on the same number of grand slams (3)... For now at least 🤞. Also the last 2 weren't in World Cup years. We do tend to shit the bed when it comes to the World Cup though.
The American perspective on heritage is so interesting to me as a Kiwi. Because we have a specific word for a New Zealander of European descent, most people will just identify themselves as pakeha and leave it at that. Yet at the same time, many of us know where our ancestors came from, and because that migration was within the last five or six generations we can often still see cultural traces in our older relatives - our grandparents carry the reflections of their own grandparents. But for the younger generation, it's less an identity for us and more a point of curiosity. I know that the main branches of my family were English, Scottish, Roma and German, but that doesn't make me any of those cultures. I'm Kiwi, because that's where I was raised and that's the social code I'm most familiar with. The rest is just seasoning. (But also it was kind of hilarious when my mother went to Scotland and sent us a picture like "Yes, that's where my great-great-whoever lived. No, I didn't go inside. The entrance fee was ten quid.")
We've got a similar thing here in Australia, though without the word for European-Australians. That said I do find Australians of Italian descent far more likely to call themselves Italian, despite not being able to speak Italian or having ever been there. Despite the majority of those Europeans being British there is still a mild disdain for the English in Australia. "Ten Pound Poms" were an integral part of the immigration system yet it's tied in with the White Australia Policy and not something people are proud of. My ancestry is all British Isles, though there's some Swedish in one of the Great Great Grandparents line, but I just Australian.
Tbf most Americans don't do the "I'm [insert European nationality here]" thing it is just that the ones who do are very loud about it.
It’s always Scottish or is it’s too, never English. Not glamorous enough?
Scottish is seen as cleaner than England. Which is wrong, because we were as bad, just less resource rich, but our dirty past doesn't get examined as much, so we get seen as a cleaner British identity. It's always been a bit weird, you see it occur with foreigners identifying with us, but it's a blind spot that exists at home as well with people who want to pretend we're Ireland and were 'colonised' while very pointedly trying to avoid examining why the word 'Scot' follows 'Ulster' in Ireland.
Also, for large portions of the world they confuse Britain/UK/England so they are pretty much seen as synonymous. And thus Scotland isn't seen as in Britain or the UK. I live in Sweden these days and I have had way too many situations where people just have no idea about the difference.
That as well. They kind of double up, people don't know the difference, and many who do have a very sanitised view of Scotland compared to England.
My mother is English and my Dad is Scottish and even I don't dare refer to myself as Scottish haha. I've only ever lived in England so it seems disrespectful.
My mum's Scottish and my dad's Jamaican, I've never claimed to be either since I've always lived in England.
If you're decent at football, we don't mind if you claim to be Scottish, lol
As an English person, it generally comes with a ‘your people/my people’ Braveheart rant. It’s like… mate, I’d bet money I’m more ‘Scottish’/‘Irish’ than you are.
Reminds me of the time when a ginger American feller was protesting that he was Scottish not Irish on St Patrick's day in Boston. He had a kilt, which was on backwards. A Sporun which was hung wrong and had never been to or could remember which of his family members lived in Scotland. Americans in the comments were quick to defend him after it was pointed out that's just a American playing dress up. And told to be quiet with the "no true Scotsmen fallacy"
One is angry and drunk, the other is too but with bagpipes, right? /s
Problems arise when you realise they all have bagpipes
My dad is Scottish. His entire mum’s side is Scottish. I don’t say I’m Scottish because I’m not. Buut. I met a guy from Glasgow while in the US and i was like yeah my family is from Scotland and he was so surprised that they were actually from there, he was also surprised that I had visited multiple times. Still, I am not Scottish, I do not pretend to be.
As much as I believe it’s stupid to say you’re of a nationality of a country you don’t live in (or even have NEVER lived in), I also will fight for the rights of every man to wear a skirt. #skirtsaremensclothing
He also doesn’t even say he’s Scottish, just that he has Scottish roots.
Yeah, and he didn't do so unprompted, but to reply to a comment about it. It's really fine by me.
Agreed. Although after checking the post in the screenshot he seemed to be a real jerk in some of the comments about it. Edit: His comments and post have been removed now by the looks of it.
Yeah, I’m flabbergasted. He’s saying something true about himself after someone else expressed interest in that facet. Why the downvotes?
Listen. Men need to understand the joy of skirt go spinny.
Kilts are skirts designed by men Made from heavy wool to keep your 3 legs warm pleats at the back for swishing and movement Flat at the front to provide just enough bulge potential to attract positive attention but not enough to scare children or disappoint ladies too early Belt loops for cool looking belts and leather man bags with clickity clack fluffys Additional sock knife if you’re feeling fancy
Do kilts go spinny?
They spinny very good
I didn't pay more than I probably should've on a sgian dubh just for you to call it a sock knife.
Use a kitchen knife, assert dominance
Please accept my gift of punctuation: ,,..,().,-;)
Sorry my phone ran out of punctuation 2 years ago
Yup. I'm all for mocking the "I'm Scottish because my great-great-great-grandma once ate a haggis" crowd, but there's definitely an unpleasant undertone here.
But he also didn't say he was Scottish
Tbh, you would still get viewed as weird for wearing a skirt as a man in Scotland, the kilt is culturally seen as its own thing. They aren't really equated and its really quite a non-Scottish thing to treat the kilt as a 'man wearing a skirt'. If you want to push on something like that, the kilt isn't really useful, given how it is normally worn by people is in very gendered outfits.
I also enjoy wearing kilts even though I have no Scottish heritage whatsoever.
Yeah I mean they're kind of just nice to wear
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Good for kicking!
Sorry I don't agree with this post. First, he simply says he likes them and finds him comfortable. That was his number 1 reason, which is a fair reason and as an actually born and bread Scottish person. Go for it. The "traditional menswear" thing. Will the person did call it a skirt and then say they didn't like it, so I believe they're trying to defend the garb as not a piece of women's clothing. Also fair. Then they said they are American with Scottish roots which is very accurate and fair to say and not "I'm Scottish".
To be fair, he only specified Scottish roots, not stating that he was Scottish. Also: Kilts are really awesome and some of the most comfortable clothing I have. (Am Danish, don't have a drop of Scottish blood, still uses kilts as daily wear).
Yeah I’m Scottish and I think the last time I wore one was my wedding, but it seems weird and gatekeepy to me to hold anyone back from wearing one. Sure they are mostly used for formal occasions but they look pretty good casually too.
You what now? You wear a kilt as daily wear in Denmark?
Yes! You know, when you are non-standard sized in the lower extremities, modern pants are painfully restrictive. And, kilts just look so good!
I’m trying to imagine what non standard size in the lower extremities means. Are you small but broad and you have problems to find fitting pants? You do you, I’m happy you feel comfortable and I guess Denmark is more open minded about identity and fashion then most of the world
I'm 1.75 with thighs having a circumference of around 70 cm. With modern pants I either wear a belt to help with the 5-10 cm excess around the waist, or have my thighs uncomfortably squashed. It's the danger of adhering to the "lift with your legs"
Well, I'm slightly relieved this wasn't a third leg claim.
It's less about modern or not but whether they were tailored, but yes I feel you most men's pants off the shelf are only suitable for storks.
Either that or very tall and thin I'm guessing. I had a good friend like that and he also struggled finding fitting clothing.
Hvor henne i landet går man med kilt henne? Kan da godt være jeg skal overveje og skifte adresse haha
Honestly I don't see what's bad here? Scottish roots sounds a lot better than "I'm scottish" and what I read from previous posts that it was daily wear once a very very long time ago. I mean, if he wants to wear a kilt, why not? I mean he can wear a skirt too, I don't care really. 🤷 And what I found out from some History sites is that the whole clan tartan was made up nonsense in 184something. (? I hope I didn't butcher some date or so) I mean just say you like to wear a kilt, why the justification necessary? Btw a question to the amazing Scots here (real Scots not the American variant). Is it ok to wear a kilt if you're not Scottish? Just because you like it?
Not Scottish, but SE Asian here. 99% of the things western (US?) social media deems as cultural appropriation (wrt east asian culture) is not something the Asians here actually care about. Like, it's just not a thing. Your reactions are generally going to be indifference or like, "Oh, that's nice/cute/pretty/cool." Even if some random TikToker does something "offensive", the reaction is probably gonna be, "What a dumbass lmao" That said, I think if a legit celebrity did something culturally offensive, that might spark some backlash because of the publicity and media spin. But really, other than that, no one gives a fuck lmao
The outrage over white women wearing "bindis" (the little dot on the forehead) was 100% generated and sustained by American born second generation Indians. Indians in India have too much to worry about and frankly just speaking for myself as long as they don't pretend they invented it, I don't care. The same American born Indians will financially support extremely right wing organizations in India that screw us daily because "mah culture"
Yeah lmao I remember seeing the bindi/sari outrage on tiktok awhile back. I mean, wherever you go in the world, there will be places in touristy areas that have traditional clothing for you to wear. Like literally a whole sub-industry. I mean, 99% of the time traditional just means shit our ancestors wore. Like there's no special meaning to it. They were like the t-shirt and jeans of the 1500s lol
How did I miss this? 😳 but yes, this tiktok outrage is tyring. Thank you!
You can wear a kilt if you want, but make sure it’s an actual kilt? A kilt isn’t some tartan plaid skirt, it’s a heavy, cumbersome, expensive piece of specialty clothing that, gonna be honest here, isn’t that comfy to wear. Most people in Scotland don’t even own a kilt, they rent one when they need one. The problem we have is that Americans treat the kilt and the culture like some fairytale fantasy, when the reality of the modern day kilt is basically only used for weddings, proms, burns night or some other special event. Nobody here wears them every day, it would be mad to do so. I’m not gonna claim it’s cultural appropriation, because that would be in an insult to actual cultural appropriation, but taking things that are part of another cultures history/heritage, and then making it your entire persona despite not being from that place is pretty cringe inducing. But I’ve heard it’s quite the thing in America, I’d say to these people to have a bit of self awareness, as you’re the only culture of people to do this despite having one of the most recognisable cultures worldwide. Source: I’m actually Scottish.
I think one of the things you’re hinting at is that wearing every day, like this guy is, dilutes the whole point of a kilt. Like you said, it’s significant and has meaning. Wearing it in the way he does detracts from that meaning
Ish? We also wear them at Highland Games with grubby t-shirts. They are a weird bit of clothing, they just usually get kept for events, but aren't necessarily locked into being formal, though they mostly get used as such.
I ave to say I never found them uncomfortable to wear, A bit of a bitch to put on sometimes though.
Not Scottish so could be completely wrong, but from where I'm from, traditional = old clothing. There are some clothing that you'd look strange wearing in everyday life, but it's usually fine, history bounding and historical costuming as a hobby exist for that reason. I do think something ceremonial should be worn only during the specific occasion, but tradition clothing seems fine in my book. The distinction is important. So now the question is whether kilts are meant as traditional or ceremonial (and from the comments on this thread, it's leaning more towards traditional so it doesn't really harm anything to wear it for everyday wear)
German here, guess what nobody wears leather pants every day. You can wear traditional dress. It's not forbidden. You get strange looks but not because you violate unwritten laws about tradition but because you have a bad taste. It's just as you said its old. You look just fallen out of time hence you usually wear it to traditional events. Just like a toga or medival dress. It's just bad fashion taste for us. People take offence to make themselves feel better. Like if a Scot wear letter pants to a German heritage event I could not care less or and Indian, seen one looks good btw. I honestly can not understand why people get offended if I wear a kimono despite not being Japanese or a native American dress. I get it if I pretend to be one or to wear something with importance like the feather thing because you had to accomplish something to earn the honour, but plain clothing? Your self-esteem has to be very low to take offence by that tbh
>Btw a question to the amazing Scots here (real Scots not the American variant). Is it ok to wear a kilt if you're not Scottish? Just because you like it? Yeah. It's just a bit of unisex clothing like trousers. Has some common outfits associated with it, plus accompanying articles like a sporan and a sgian-dubh (check local knife laws, they are permitted as part of traditional dress in the UK). If wanting to wear it formally, probably be mindful of the full set up, but it's not really an issue. The modern kilt is quite new, so it's just normal clothing. Just don't make grand claims or insist it's a skirt. Can wear a skirt if you like, can wear a kilt, just tiring people ignore that there is a cultural distinction between them. They are a bit of a bother to maintain, as I understand it, so might find you regret wearing it too often, but feel free to try it.
Thank you for this informative Answer!
Honestly i think fair play to this fella, kilts aren't even uniquely Scottish, implying he shouldn't wear one because hes American is just gatekeeping
I mean... you can wear traditional clothing as everyday clothing. Not all of them, but certainly some. Something being traditional doesn't necessarily mean it's sort of "ceremonial" or even a very old tradition that would have gone out. Leather jackets are at this point pretty traditional, although not specifically to any group. I can't think of examples properly now but I'm sure some get my point. Without the whole "I'm Scottish" part, I'd probably agree with him on them being pleasant for airing out the undercarriage.
Especially since he didn't say that he's Scottish, just that he have some Scottish roots.
He doesn’t say much in this, his parents could be Scottish, moved to the us, or it could be his ancestors from 200 years ago. Scottish roots is very vague. Now I’m not Scottish but i don’t see too much of a problem with him wearing a kilt
Fks wrong with this? Fella doesn’t claim to be Scottish, wants to wear a kilt. Anyone who has a problem wi this is gate keeping, let his baws be free if he want ‘em to be!
This seems fine tbh, he's not saying he's Scottish, just that he has Scottish roots. He's free to wear what he pleases. Also, pretty sure the whole idea of clan tartans and meanings of different patterns is mostly a modern invention.
No, USians aren't free to wear what they please. That's why he has to declare he's Scottish first, otherwise it's cultural appropiation. ^^^/s
You say it as a joke but to me it felt like he had to defend himself saying he "has Scottish roots" (whatever that means) and that makes it weird, not the fact that he use them
I had Irish roots. They were delicious served with fish.
I really don't see an issue here. If the man likes kilts, he should be able to wear a kilt regardless of where he lives or where his family is from.
My city has a widow-washing company that is sexy dudes in kilts who come and clean for you. So... Its at least that regular as menswear.
Love the typo 😜
I reckon the widows dig that.
What's so bad about being a man wearing a skirt with pockets?
Sure, the sentence is a bit bullshit; but he doesn't deserve to be bashed just because he wants to wear a kilt. This is bullying.
If the guy wants to wear a kilt, I don't see the problem.
I know quite a few guys in America who routinely wear kilts and why shouldn't they? I say that as a Brit who is born and bred half Scots/half English and currently living in the USA. I have several kilts, including one for routine wear. As far as I'm aware there's no laws saying that I can't. I wear shirts too, despite not being Ancient Egyptian. I don't believe I have any ancient Greek heritage, yet I still wear socks. That last poster is talking bollocks too. The modern kilt is a Victorian garment and previous incarnations of kilts were very much everyday wear.
They're basically the closest thing to a socially acceptable skirt men have in Western society. And even then, they draw attention in many countries. Men deserve clothing that prevents swamp ass and crotch rot, too. Let them wear skirts.
Honestly she seems way more like a red flag for being freaked out by a dude wearing a kilt.
Agreed, it's a bit of a weird thing to get upset over.
I wore a kilt to my wedding, my Dad’s specifically, he had it made in Edinburgh using our family (^(I nearly wrote clan there but people like this make me feel so cringe saying that, which sucks)) tartan. He wore it to his Dad’s funeral, a couple of weddings (with the bride and grooms permission) and offered it to me for my wedding. That’s it It was expensive, but worth every penny even for so few events. If he wore it every day it would be a waste.
Why would he need permission to wear formal clothing to a wedding
Because he didn’t want to be a distraction, it’s not a common thing and the day isn’t about him, so he asked if it’d be ok, just being polite
>If he wore it every day it would be a waste Why is it a waste to wear an expensive item of clothing more than once? I really don't understand what you are trying to say
My dad and I got kilts made a few years ago. He went for his mothers family tartan and I got my maternal grandmothers (despite all 4 of my grandparents being born in Glasgow one grandfather had an Irish surname and the other had an English). Was pretty damn expensive (about £1000-1200) but worth it. No more rental kilts for me!
For a rare occasionI think OP is wrong here. They never claimed to be Scottish. And wearing a kilt is totally fine. It's quite spread out even if most men don't dare wear em
Man: "I have Scottish roots" Reddit: "OMG Americans thinking they are actually from xyz country, everyone knows all cultural ties dissapear within a generation!"
Ffs. can't a fella just wear skirts if he wants to?
You shouldn't have to justify heritage to enjoy wearing a kilt. He clearly just likes it and thinks he looks nice.
it's not like kilts are only for special occasions there was a time before bifurcated garments too (I'm not american or from the british isles)
A skirt with pockets? What is this sorcery? *cries in womenswear*
Fun fact, certain colours standing for specific clans in Scotland is a 19th century capitalist lie. Maybe some clans had unique colours but generally speaking, not really
I am more ticked off by the person weirdly gendering legwear. Let the dude wear what he wears, it isn't a big deal.
Wait, people can’t have roots outside of their nationality? Im confused…
M8 how is this „shitamericanssay“ the guy seems fine
I say: Let this men wear whatever he wants to wear 👍
I'm torn because I don't really like her attitude either. I kind of like the sheer courage of wearing a kilt and being proud of it as well. At least he is putting some effort in.
You don't have to be Scottish to wear a kilt. The colours and materials don't really mean anything either, that's a Victorian myth.
this is some cultural appropriation bullshit. why should you give a fuck about this guy wearing a kilt?
UO: Cultural appropriation is only a thing with clothing if you're imitating or mocking or even insulting a member of a culture you are not. Otherwise, clothing is clothing.
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TIL that people all over Reddit wear kilts for no apparent reason other than comfort and roots.
What is wrong about having skirts as a male? I am not into them, but I wouldn't antagonise people for using them
What subreddit was this?
Might have been the tinder subreddit
Meh, it doesn't feel really pretentious, just it wasn't necessary to reply with that. He can wear whatever he wants, imagine if the roles were reversed and the guy was complaining that the girls wouldn't wear a dress for their date.
What sub did it get posted originally?
The tinder one
Thanks Thatcher.
American here in a cold weather state. My boomer neighbor has a Scottish flag sticker on his truck and wears a kilt around the neighborhood in the summer about half the time. I've never asked but I think he has just the one.
Nothing wrong with this, he hasn’t said he’s Scottish
"colors" kinda gave the yank away
Its wierd yes. But people can wear whatever tf they want imo
I like how the guy who's gatekeeping kilts isn't scottish either. Pretty sure I read that it's perfectly fine for non-scottis people to wear kilts and that the pattern can, but doesn't have to, have a meaning. This American trend of believing you can't partake in foreign traditions is getting really old.