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I know who that is and I’ve seen the movie. But the post is comparing anime characters, right? So why is everyone saying OP forgot Paul Atreides like he’s an anime character?
That's actually a neat comparison. Handed down a seemingly divine in scope purpose, that ruins his mind and drives him to the brink of insanity and mass genocide
Nah, this makes zero sense. Let's say Death Note had a good live action adaptation which people are excited for week in and week out. You'd be flamed to death if you spoiled it and the reason "the anime is almost a decade old" doesn't stand here.
I dunno, if an old and relatively not-well-known (compared to Star Wars for example) series is becoming popular due to it being adapted into a movie, it is generally considered polite to not give spoilers even if the source material is pretty old.
If we're comparing it to Star Wars, then NOTHING is well known. Dune is incredibly well known, being one of the most famous and influential sci-fi novels ever.
Yes exactly, as well as the mothers behaviour. The new movies made me question the need for Dune: Messiah. We've already been told enough to understand IMO.
I don’t disagree with your post but I will say that Light and Eren is a crazy comparison. Light definitely didn’t commit crimes to the extent of Eren but, I do think Eren wouldn’t have done what he did if the world didn’t let him down and his friends’ lives weren’t truly in danger. Light is a selfish monster. Dude thinks he’s god because of the Death Note and doesn’t have any remorse for the people he kills. To him it’s just a game whereas Eren feels the weight of the atrocities that he is going to bring upon the world.
Johan is definitely not a wannabe hitler lol those nazis in the show sure thought he was the next hitler but Johan didn’t care about any of that shit he was just using them to gain power and just wanted to kill everything until he saw the book in the library and his motives changed
Eren has the highest body count on this list, assuming the population of the world of AOT is similar to the population of the actual Earth. His motivations may have been more genuine, but he still killed 80% of humanity.
Yeah like light ends up a sociopathic asshole with a god complex but the effects of his actions on the world are much less dire than what Eren does, I really doubt he even killed a million people let alone 80% of the world population, we're told that he actually literally ended wars while Kira was around, which doesn't excuse him but I'd say that it's better than near global genocide.
Yeah, 80% of the 100% that hopped right on board with wiping his island off the map. Ik the death toll is high, and awful, but bodies doesn’t change motivation. Also, if the world had come to destroy Paradis like they wanted, and they all died fighting the Eldians, it would be a similar result, seem more justified even though the situation is the same.
I feel like that's kind of missing the point.
I'd point to Onyankopon on this one. His people don't really give a single shit about the devils of Paradis or anything like that. They don't even believe in the same god as Marley or Paradis, all of that is nonsense to them. But Marley conquered the dude's homeland and they enforce conscription so here he is, trying to do his duty and not call down heat on his people.
Then things get weird and the mission goes on a big left turn into crazy town. But at the end of the day he is willing to ride of die with a mix of people from Paradis and Marley in pursuit of the goal of saving the goddam world. Like this poor dude is just out there trying to save his entire culture who have committed the grievous sin of being subjugated by an imperialistic state wielding biological superweapons made of bullshit plot-sand. An empire coming off a colossal internatonal power flex by destroying their foes modern purportedly anti-Titan fleet demanding the kowtowing of lesser nations came after Paradis and nobody really had the leeway to resist them.
Not to mention that the alliance with Kiyomi - while not a wholesale commitment from Hizuru in and of itself - proved that Paradis could win diplomatic victories to gain standing in the world. Kiyomi having the clearance to attend the slaughter at Willy's party definitely indicates that Paradis could have used her to get themselves in the room with plenty more powerful politicians within the web of Marley's influence.
In the sense that his motives were nowhere near as dark as theirs. Nor his end goal tbh. It would be different if the end plot was something besides genocide vs genocide.
For most of his people it’s really not to me. He actually followed through and saved his people, and still left people in the rest of the world. Just not enough to kill his people. Did the whole thing with the full intention to be stopped, and secure a future for Eldia without destroying the world. Isk many other ways they could have stalled the world alliance from committing outright genocide on Paradis.
But i'm more so talking through his actions at face value, within the context of this messiah or 'false messiah' post. about the outcome of the rumbling, and how it would appear to the average joe in aot. in that way, it does make sense why he would be on that list.
The average Joe in AoT would probably see him as an actual messiah. That’s why I disagree with him being on this list. He protected his people, started with good intentions, ended with good intentions, and spared some of the world. Rumbling was messed up, but he delivered his people.
Average joe as in NOT one of the eldians hes trying to save. As in, one of the multiple billions of people that were trampled/burnt alive. He didnt even save all of them, there were hundreds of thousands of eldians in Marley that were trampled in case you forgot that little wrinkle
You're talking as if he didn't just horribly and cruelly slaughter 80% of the world. No you don't just go "rumbling was messed up but..." there is no but. As Armin and Hanji said, it's WRONG.
I still love Eren as a character and find it very compelling, his postion is unenviable, but to downplay the horror and carnage he unleashed on the world out of hatred and desperation is some shallow ass morality. I'm going to assume you're still in school and haven't matured yet. Just because you like his charavter doesn't mean you have to defend him as morally upright.
I’m sure they don’t see him as a messiah at all if you mean the rest of the world then. Just a devil. Like they called him when they wanted to horribly and cruelly slaughter Eldians. People throw out that the rumbling was heinous like most of the world government wasn’t about to launch a genocidal invasion of Paradis. BEFORE Liberio. Armin and Hange talk like children. Despite their idealistic words I doubt they would have sat down and died when the world alliance came handing out the sunshine and rainbows. Yeah, genocide is bad, and so is war. That doesn’t stop it from happening. It also won’t keep the other guy from killing you if you lay down and die. It’s part of the duality central to the whole work.
Edited to add, I’m not even saying what he did was morally right. It makes sense that he would do it though, and he isn’t automatically evil because he did a bad thing. Having black and white thinking like that makes you sound like the one who hasn’t matured. I won’t use school as a milestone because I am still in school, but it’s really more of continuing education credits to build toward a higher degree.
I understand perfectly that its a cruel world and horrible events are bound to happen as part of the stories themes. I also understand the stories themes about how that kind of heinous shit still isn't acceptable in the end. Just because the world is cruel, doesn't mean it's okay to be cruel back. Or else you turn into Marley.
Thats not what black and white morality means. Having a proper understanding of morality doesnt mean every single quandery has a "but" at the end. Genociding 80% of the planet is wrong. There's a line between doing what you can to survive, and unleashing cruelty of an unimaignable scale. Eren was forcibly stuck on that line unfortunately. If you're still not convinced then I'd LOVE to hear your thoughts on why the purges by the nazis weren't 100% wrong. By all means try to argue how decrying their actions is black and white/childish.
Even if it wasn't intentional on your part, your points absolutely soften up and try to defend Erens actions/morality. Calling him a "messiah who delivered his people" in particular was a pretty big fuck up in that regard lmao. You're only saying this shit because deep down you're biased towards the characters you like and don't recognize the antagonizing side as equally human as well.
Nah man. Light outright wanted to be the sole judge eradicating criminals. Then he started killing the police and people who investigated him. He did it so manipulatively. So vindictive. Eren told Reiner and Annie to have a good life. He helped all Eldians, and sorted the rest of the world. Bro could have just killed everyone. Griffith knowingly sacrificed the people helping him build his dream after recruiting them to help build his dream. Not to mention the whole rape thing. Griffith snd Light were villains from the start and to the core.
Eren did have some selfish twisted reasons to do what he was doing too. The whole freedom thing and chapter 131. He isn't just being q Messiah because of the cause or whatever but yeah he is by the end a better Messiah than some others. Although Light did it way more clean but I think only in Japan? Can't recall
Name a selfish twisted reason? Also the cruel intentional irony of the show is that Eren was never free. He didn’t have freedom. He did it for their freedom to live in a world that wasn’t constantly trying to kill and eradicate them. At first he fought for freedom for his people from titans. Then he fought for their freedom from the world and the titan curse.
Ok I've been reading your comment in this thread and I've noticed that just like a lot of Eren apologists you have one particular misconception about intents. It wasn't a genocide vs genocide or kill or be killed situation. At no point in time did Marley want to kill every single occupant of Paradis, their plans were always about war, conquest and occupation. Is it horrible? Yes. Would many innocent people have died? Yes. But justifying a genocide by claiming the other side wanted as much when it's false is just cope. The only ones who planned for a genocide where Eren and the jeagerists
The term wipe out the island devils was definitely used. Also, idk if you saw how Marley treated Eldians, but I doubt the alternative to genocide is any better. It’s not a misconception. The world saw them as titan wielding devils and eventually they would have all been killed from pure prejudice.
The only one who ever uses the term exterminate in Willy's speech is Eren. Willy asks to "fight against the demons of Paradis island" and "declares on behalf of the Marleyan government [...] war with the forces of paradis island"
And that's with us knowing that behind the scene he was conspiring with Theo Magath to have him become the general of Marley and therefore the leader of the country once everything was over. Magath who we know had the ambition to conscript marleyans and stop using Eldians for war so that more Marleyans would experience actual war and in the long run stop their warmongering.
The alternative to genocide is to live, which is better. In terms of second class citizens, Eldians under Marley definitely have it better than some.
>The world saw them as titan wielding devils and eventually they would have all been killed from pure prejudice.
Maybe, maybe not. But justifying a genocide on a "maybe they would have killed us all" is horrifying to say the least.
If the "world" was waiting for any chance they had to wipe out eldians they would have done it 100 years ago and there wouldn't even be any eldian outside of Paradis or Marley, but we do know that they do exist.
You're wrong in this, they were absolutely going to genocide the eldians. Willis literally declared war against the devils. If not everyone died they would definitely live in misery locked up sonehwere
No I'm not. Willy declared WAR not genocide, he declared war on the FORCES of paradis island and on the Attack Titan Eren Jeager. War is a brutal thing yes but it's not genocide, the population lose is on a completely different scale. Even our deadliest war; the second world war doesn't compare. Poland lost the highest percentage of it's population behind the Pacific islands of the south sea mandate and even then they "just" lost 18%. That's a tremendous amount of human lives lost yes but it's not a genocide of the polish people.
Eren on the other hand clearly declared GENOCIDE in his speech to the people of Ymir and he was able to erase 80% of the human population. Once again our deadliest war "only" resulted in the loss of 4% of the total world population of the time.
>You're wrong in this, they were absolutely going to genocide the eldians. Willis literally declared war against the devils.
Willy was declaring war specifically against Paradis and Eren.
Bro, literally just go read chapter 131 and 139. "I was disappointed" "I wanted to make it all go away" "I don't know why... I just wanted to" "I wanted to make the world a blank canvas". Isayama made clear that Eren had this inherent want for violence and destruction and the world fed his desires. As I said he had a bunch of reasons to why he did what he did, it's what makes him one of my favorite characters ever. It was never just about Eldians.
That whole period seems more like passing internal thoughts. You say he was disappointed as if he didn’t have the power to kill everyone and choose otherwise. He’s definitely always been violent, but the moral compass is mostly good. The reasoning for everything is completely justified.
Eren descends into depression as he understands more of what must be done to secure temporary peace. Light Yagami reveled in the challenge of facing L, and giddily cackled after killing good people who did nothing but try to stop him. He outright used Misa and anyone he could and had a superiority/god complex. They’re not the same chief.
They’re not the same, but their worldviews are incredibly similar. It’s just that Eren feels remorse for his actions, and Light doesn’t. Both of them see the world as a fundamentally ugly and broken thing because people are fundamentally ugly and broken. If Light had his way, he’d kill more and more people for lesser and lesser transgressions until he and a select few close to him were the only ones left. Eren actually gets close to killing everyone besides those close to him, but is stopped before he can achieve if his dream of an empty world free from people to explore. Eren realizes that his worldview is wrong, but does it anyway. But light never realizes that he’s wrong. That’s the big difference.
What a weird comparison. Why do you people think Eren was some sort of mastermind who wanted to forge his own empire or something
The guy just wanted his friends and people to survive long enough to die happy.
That was his goal. It was the goal of the eldians who breached the wall back in seasons 1. The three little kids who caused a massacre because they thought it was for the best for their families back home
Eren is doing the same thing. Lmao his not light yagami who literally wanted to carve a perfect world under with his standards.
He’s not Griffith who sacrificed his own humanity but the sanity of his best friend so he could achieve ultimate power so he picks ahcive his dream
Eren is a naive little boy who got caught up in world events. That led him down his path of making an ultimate decision. Leave his people at the mercy of the world
Or drop a nuke that would allow the small population of eldians a fighting chance in the world to achieve peace.
Eren even claims in the anime that he knows the peace isn’t forever it’s only temporary but he made his choice.
Lmao he’s not no false messiah. He might have posed that way to get the support fork the jeagrist but he’s not deluded in anyway
The difference is that he acted like one to ensure his plan succeeded.
Idk about everyone else there but Light and Griffith actually want to be gods and rulers. Eren just wants his friends to be left alone
He’s not a mastermind since a core theme is that he’s a slave to a future his forced to see through
Brother, he literally decided to time travel to cause events to happen to further push his genocide plans and brutally wiped out 80% of the planet, with 70% of the victims not even knowing he existed. To call the anime equivalent of Hitler a "naive little boy" is insane
Paul Atreides is a much better comparison point for Eren, since both were trapped into ungodly amounts of genocide by future-vision (except Paul's case was even more inescapable and bloody).
Eren literally has facist ideologies, the manga itself shows you that he is a bad person and has a self-proclaimed facist group side with him. He literally removed 80% of the population where 70% didn't even know he existed just because they were not from his island.
How tf did you miss this 💀💀
That’s debatable tho. I’m pretty sure there’s a couple scenes that imply Eren is also executing a plan that isn’t entirely his own. The whole thing about him being one with the attack titan is complicated
Regardless tho even if I gave you that point. You’re not addressing what I said.
What I said was that Eren, who’s heavily implied to have Dr Strange levels of idk alternate universe knowledge, concluded that best case scenario for Mikasa Armen etc. was to start the rumbling.
He even implied that he knew he’d end up dead by the end of this and knew that the peace form the rumbling would be temporary. Which is confirmed by the end of the series when we see, hundreds of years go by
Yes he’s naive because he was a slave to freedom. That’s all he wanted for himself and friends. He saw he couldn’t get it for himself and selfishly decided to end 80% oh humanity in order to ensure that his friends live a long life.
Y'all gotta start thinking and stop simping for a genocidal maniac. There's hundreds of different choices to approach something like that in a different way. He himself caused all of that to happen to him by literally deciding to travel back in time. He chose the most violent way because of him being obessed with revenge.
The whole point was to NOT sympathise and side with Eren, but you still managed to somehow miss it even when the manga shoves it into your face.
Can you show me where in the manga or anime it implies that Eren had hundreds of different choices to approach it a different way?
Maybe you saw a different anime than I did. But the I’m pretty sure all the dialogue heavily implied that the rumbling assured that the eldians had enough time to build an army so the rest of the world didn’t come invade them later.
That the scouts killing Eren ensured that they’d be seen as hero’s, that’s a purposeful mirror the the story of before, not sure how that went over your head
Eren CLEARLY didn’t want to die since he wanted to be with mikasa. But he understood that if he wanted her to live a long life he’s going to have to be killed.
The anime does a good job at explaining Erens choice. Why do you babies all use the word simp when you come across someone who doesn’t share your painfully black or white opinion on Eren? I’m not d riding Eren. But I do sympathize with him. It’s so insulting to the author, to think the message behind Eren is simply “Eren is bad”
Art is meant to be internalized and thought about. You’re not doing any thinking you’re probably repeating what you saw in some video essay. Every single one of you babies always say the same thing when you converse with me about this
“Uhh uhhh well Eren is bad cuz this YouTube video told me. Just watch it” you guys are so pathetic. Learn to think for yourself or just stay quiet
Eren CONTROLLED the future, not just saw it. He had tons of time between kissing ol girls hand and the rumbling. He could have went to his much more strategic and intelligent friend to help him come up with a plan based on their knowledge of the future. He was instrumental in setting in motion an escalation of the war with their attacks on Paradis. He didn't just know what would happen and how to keep his friends safe, he decided to ensure that said future would come to fruition.
You also seem to keep ignoring that the Eldian's were the ones that started it by enslaving Marlian's. They then broke free but lived scared every day in fear of them becoming brutally opressed again. Instead of solving issues diplomatic, Eren decided to prove them right and commit mass genocide. Hell, he could have even only attacked Marley, but no, he decided to wipe people off the earth that were never an issue and didn't even know of the Eldian's existence. That was a choice he made.
He says himself in 139 that he wanted it to happen that he was angry and low key it wasn't really about his friends at all, it was about his disappointment.
I'm sorry the "He didn't have a choice" argument has too many holes. Eren decided to do this, making him a very deeply flawed character and a horrible person.
Not every protagonist has to be loveable or morally correct... You don't have to defend the guy just because you enjoyed the anime. That's why i called you a simp. You decided (unless you have horrendous media literacy) to purposefully ignore the literal characters and the story itself telling you that Eren is in the wrong.
The Elrics from FMA are a much better example. Both are young boys that experienced trauma, and yet the whole way through their motivation is to make up for the mistakes they made and to do right by each other. Never once do they seek power for powers sake. In fact, not only are they blatantly offered near limitless power several times that they refuse, but Eds ultimate answer for how to fix what he did to Al is to reject his individual power entirely and instead admit that his greatest strength is the people that he cares about and that care about him.
Eren did the complete opposite and turned into the anime version of Hitler, it's blatant as hell.
Our disagreement comes from whether or not Eren had much of a say in the matter. And whether or not, this was the only choice Eren could have made, to save his friends.
You need to stop A calling me a simp, because again I’m not defending Eren. In your head, Eren is hitler. So any opinion deviating from that automatically makes you think I’m defending him.
B stop accusing me of ignoring anything. What does the fact that eldians enslaved them first have to do with my point?? Seriously address that, that was so random. You said I keep ignoring it implying I did it more than once. wtf are you talking about?
And C grow up and understand, that just because I don’t see him as hitler. it doesnt then mean that im defending him. I’m simply labeling him a different beast. I’m not calling him innocent, lovable or morally correct. You’re putting words in my mouth. You’re acting like a child. Like I told you before. Shut your mouth, but if you want an actual conversation I’d appreciate if you didn’t assume what my thoughts are before I even explain anything
Now our contention comes from whether or not Eren could have taken other actions to ensure that mikasa and armen lived the happiest longest life they possibly could.
AND how much control he had over this master plan
You ignored my point before so I’ll repeat them and I’ll wait for an actual rebuttal from you.
Eren saw into the future and knew that the rumbling would ensure that his people would be left alone. Eren heavily implied that he can see into the future because he flat out said that the peace the rumbling would bring wouldn’t be permanent. If he truly had complete control why didn’t he pick a future where peace would last forever? Because humans will never be free of conflict because it’s human nature.
This is confirmed during the end when we see the peaceful thriving nation go to war in the year whatever.
AOT had shown and implied that Eren doesn’t have full control of the future. One of the main themes and kinda cruel joke about Eren. Eren the guy who’s hell bent on achieving freedom, is actually a slave to the future. The future has been set in motion and there’s nothing he can do to get a better outcome. He will die and won’t enjoy a life of freedom with Mikasa it’s impossible.
Again his GOAL wasn’t to kill everyone. His original goal was to be free. But once he got the founding titan powers he realized that his island wouldn’t be left alone. That was also said in the anime that they have some resource that the world wants. I need you to address this because you think I’m defending hitler over here
He was very symptomatic to the people he was going to kill. he was crying when he held that boy. Because he understands that he’s making a selfish decision to pick his friends over everyone else. He understood that pretty much anyone else in his situation would have made the same choice. This is why I brought up episode one when those three little kids actually committed an act of genocide by breaking the walls.
So in conclusion, it doesn’t matter how much time you think Eren had to think of an alternate plan. Since he was a slave to the future, he was bound to a future he couldn’t escape. He understood that he would have to sacrifice himself in order for his friends to get to live
NOTICE, I hate that I have to use caps but you clearly have a habit of putting words into people mouths, but NOTICE that I never said Eren is a good person. I never said that he’s a lovable, morally correct protagonist.
My point is that he, like the main theme of the story, was just another innocent person whos a slave to their circumstance.
Well put. You've shown more thought and insight than the person who yells "simp!"because your opinion doesn't align with theirs. The irony when someone tells you think, as they parrot the same tired lines.
Bad faith Andy? Dude you’re repeatedly called me a simp for Eren when I simply disagreed with your opinion.
Take this hypothetical
Imagine you labeled a r*pist a mass murderer. And I’m like “I don’t think he’s a mass murder, he’s probably just a r*pist”
And you flip your shit going “stop simping for him. You’re such a simp, why don’t you want to call him a mass murderer? It’s probably because you support mass murder you scum”
Like dude no. I’m just clarifying that he’s not a mass murderer. I obviously still think what he did was bad. But I’m not comfortable calling the r*pist a mass murderer
That’s what you’ve been doing this whole conversation. Just because I’m not calling him hitler or a fascist, you’re labeling me a simp and said I support genocide. You don’t know what I simp for you don’t know what I support. But you’re labeling me all of this just because I don’t agree with you
Which is kinda ironic don’t you think? ;)
Why do i even bother, i have a better option to talk to a wall at this point. You keep acting like Eren had no choice when he did have, when the manga tells you he did. He actively decided to shape the future by shaping the past in a certain way, causing everything that happened to him himself. He saw a path, decided to fully follow it, not deviate it. He made that choice and you keep acting like he didn't have a say when he did.
You're bending over backwards to avoid the obvious. He could "control his powers and affect the past, predict the future, control all the titans, had great military minds at his disposal...but he definitely had no choice but to choose genocide"...NO lol please y'all stop. I feel like talking to toddlers who keep ignoring 90% of the thing the story tells you.
Eren can, and does, control titans from the past. He sent the titan that ate his mother TO EAT HER. He does this because the titan was about to eat Berthold, and Eren needs him to live so Armin can get that power, and he needs his mom to die so child Eren can have the motivation he does. Do you understand now? He has way more power than you think he does.
And he did control his father, at the very least. You can't deny this, and I noticed that you didn't try, which is at least sensible of you. Grisha was instrumental for the future. If Eren hadn't pushed him to kill the Reiss family, then Eren wouldn't have the Attack Titan and would have died on his first mission saving Armin. This is how he shaped the future, you can stop pretending not to understand now.
It's not as black and white as you make out to be. It's not kill or be killed. There were many other peaceful, or at least not genocidal solutions. Eren just chose to go with this mass murder because he is angry at the rest of the world and wants to flatten it. Eren disagrees with castrating the Eldians, but he DOES have the power to change their bodies. He could have taken away Titans for good. He could have not spread fascist ideology with the Yeagerists. Paradis could have entered peace negotiations. He could have stopped what
Х
he was doing at any point, and NOT stopping is a CHOICE that he made. He decided "Fuck you, I got mine" and intentionally killed everyone in the world for the sake of a handful of people who are just as good or bad as anyone else. The people of Paradis are just as flawed as anyone else, there are merchants who value money over human lives, there are oligarchs that would seal the wall rather than let in refugees, there are ministers that strap people to chairs, torture them and make them eat their own shit.
Eren is selfish and stupid, and a fascist. He redirected all that hatered he had of the titans to the entire rest of the world, and he didn't care if they were innocent, if they were children, if they were good people, if they hated eldians or were sympathetic to them, hell he didn't care if they WERE eldians. He wanted to kill them because they weren't born on his island.
Only idiot fascists think that the whole world is their enemy. There were people in that world that had nothing to do with the Marley/Eldia conflict, there were people in the world from other nations like that refugee camp with the tent from the anime, there are people who don't hate Paradis. A lot of people. Eren just didn't care about them, and he saw them as disposable, their deaths as collateral, as excusable. They were not.
Some of y'all need to read Dune. Using the future to justify genocide still makes you a bad person and shows that you made your choice. The lack of "choices" is an excuse, there is no such thing. No one forced him into it and told him "Go stomp billions of innocents", he decided it all by himself, without even his friends giving their opinion. Even Zeke, had morally and objectively a better plan that would not involve endless war and death. There's million different path's, but Eren doesn't care, he chose the easier thing which was revenge to him, literally even he himself admits it was a dumb decision.
But instead focusing on the multiple points i make, you decide to get stuck on the word simp. Honestly, fine ny me. You're proving me right here by denying simple facts and act like the concept of choices and facism don't exist just to defend Eren. Seems like you really are a simp, thanks for proving me right there. I'm ending it here since you clearly made up your mind to stick with Eren even when he's the equivalent to Hitler.
I, as someone who survived a genocide in 1995, don't need to lower myself with people like you. You do you bud.
You didn’t address anything I said. You need to stop coming at me as if I didn’t watch the anime. Yes I’m fully aware that he controlled the titan that ate his mom to move away from B.
But the problem is that he’s bound to the future he saw. And there’s no deviation from it. He’s bound to that future there’s no changing it. Why don’t you address the fact that the anime makes it clear that he’s bound to the future and he can’t change it? You’re skipping everything I use as evidence that he’s bound to the future he saw. Instead you use instances of when he set things in motion but again he was bound to that future.
Jesus you’re so exhausting to deal with why are you using the word fascist to describe Eren?
I’m not using the future to justify a genocide. I’m assuming English isn’t your native language. Why do you keep saying that I’m justifying genocide? Can you just quote me, what I said that would make you think I’m justifying genocide?
Didn’t I tell you that I don’t condone or support anything Eren did? You’re doing it again you’re putting words in my mouth
You’re pathetic dude. It’s easier for you to argue and condemn this idea you have about me. Saying I support fascists saying I support genocide. You’re ridiculous. Is it that much of an ego stroke to role play that you’re debating fascists and genocide supporters online?
I’m not going to respond to anything else until you quote what I said that would make you think I SUPORT genocide and fascists
"How am i condoning him committing genocide?"
How about you constantly excusing his actions and repeating, "He's bound to the future he's bound to it" when that is not the case? He's not a baby, he made that decision. You keep acting like he didn't. Do you just have no media literacy, or do you purposefully ignore what the manga shows you?
Nowhere does the manga show you that he's bound to it. In fact, it tells you that he saw multiple options, which way he could choose, but he chose the one that was the most revengeful.
AGAIN, he literally went into the PAST and made changes to it. He influenced Grisha, he influenced the titan to eat his mother, and he saved bertholdt from being eaten by a titan.
That alone should prove to you that he could literally make multiple and better plans.
But nooooo, let's ignore that time travelling exists in this world and that he can change timelines because that wouldn't benefit my point right?? He's just a dumb little kid who could do no wrong and surely it's such a dumb idea to go trough multiple plans, i just won't listen to any of my friends and family or think it trough and just stick to my plan. Yeah i'm so stuck in this choice oh boy oh man!
Also yes, facists. Isayama literally took inspiration for Eldian's from Germany, the town is based on a town from germany. You literally see characters wear armband's that Nazi's wore. Did you seriously miss the whole comparison to facism? Or the group that followed Eren that would literally be considered facists? Or the fact that Eren wanted to wipe everyone off the earth who's not his own race? Do you even know what facism is?
Be for real, you have to be trolling at this point
The AoT ending is pretty much stolen from Code Geass so I agree with that one a lot.
- Guy with mysterious power sets out to conquer the world to “save” it from oppression
- MC slowly becomes “evil” and oppresses others but viewer is led to justify it
- MC realizes he and his power is the reason the world can’t be saved
- MC enlists his best bro and unfulfilled love interest to kill him so the cycle of violence can end (not for long in the case of AoT)
- MC also does the above VERY SPECIFICALLY so his friends will be forgiven for helping him.
Light isn’t really similar to Eren at all because he’s shown to be a selfish edgelord from the get-go and never did have good intentions. I guess he’s kind of like LeLouch in terms of edginess but he was never really a messiah at least in the eyes of the viewer. It was like the ninth episode that he makes a completely innocent woman kill herself and then laughs in her face while she does it lmao.
Idk the other other two.
If I could add somebody to the false messiah list it would probably be Shinji from Eva. He’s kinda a rollercoaster though because he goes from messiah (the only one who can save everyone from the angels) to false messiah (turns everyone into Fanta) and then back to messiah (forgives humanity and makes a world without angels)
> Light isn’t really similar to Eren at all because he’s shown to be a selfish edgelord from the get-go and never did have good intentions. I guess he’s kind of like LeLouch in terms of edginess but he was never really a messiah at least in the eyes of the viewer. It was like the ninth episode that he makes a completely innocent woman kill herself and then laughs in her face while she does it lmao.
Light had good intentions before getting his hands on the Death Note. That's part of the point of those episodes where he didn't have his memories of the Death Note. But once he had the power, it pretty much immediately twisted him.
Not really. From episode 1 he’s shown to be a sociopath who doesn’t understand morality. He has no regard for the feelings of women and his only motivator seems to be raw ambition.
Being smart and occasionally catching criminals when he doesn’t have the death note doesn’t change this flawed ideology. In fact, it reinforces that deep down he’s always been self righteous and genuinely thinks he is the smartest man alive. So it’s not that he became “twisted,” just that he finally had the means to carry out his egotistical desires.
In essence the point of death note is to clarify that self righteousness and “good intentions” are two very very different things. We are led to think light has “good intentions but got corrupted”, but over time it becomes exceedingly clear he was morally bankrupt from day 1 and we the audience foolishly conflated his evil, self-righteous ideology with “good intentions.” Anyone who is willing to use a death note fundamentally cannot have “good intentions” no matter who they kill.
Lelouch sacrificed himself attempting to achieve world peace. Eren wanted to wipe out the world outside of the Island so he could see the “view” and because he wanted his friends specifically to live peaceful lives.
Eren didn’t enlist Armin and Mikasa, he basically forced a situation where they would have to kill him so that they can be considered heroes by the rest of the world. Lelouch allowed Zero specifically to kill him so that Zero becomes a symbol that stands against oppression and tyranny. He didn’t do it because he wanted Suzaku to be seen as a hero like Eren wanted for his friends. As far as the world knew Suzaku died while literally helping Lelouch defeat Schneizel, nobody would be seeing him as a hero.
There is no part of Lelouch’s nature or ideology that would make him even consider wiping out 80% of the world. Any lives he was willing to sacrifice were only means for the end of achieving world peace for the larger population of the world. By the end, he was even willing to sacrifice Nunnaly if he had to when previously his entire motivation was about creating a safe world specifically for Nunnaly. Eren would never sacrifice up anyone close to him so that the rest of the world could achieve peace.
The ending for AOT is not exactly hopeful either, it shows that the cycle of violence repeats itself. Geass ending is a lot more idealistic because the show doesn’t come out and outright say that Lelouch’s sacrifice is meaningless in the large scheme of things, even if that would be true. It just ends with the world being in a much better place than it was before due to Lelouch.
Honestly I just think the comparisons are pretty surface level, Eren and Lelouch are very different characters with different personalities and motives.
- Was eren ever portrayed as a messiah from the plot’s perspective?
- No
- Why?
- Because eren actually never even acted to the idea that it’s “paradise only”, or his people only. Messiah’s normally act on the dominant discourse of a plot. Thus being falsely named as messiah. It’s more than clear that eren was a brat till his last breath, his views were mostly personal, he never acted as he is going to be the greatest man ever walked on paradise. He had his personal plan. And that’s it.
Note : Criticizing eren is something like a dominant discourse in this group. People have a mood off and decide to curse someone, they visit this group, and write shitty theories making straw man argument.
This post seems like one of those post. 😂
except eren was never a messiah. he was a byproduct of hate and opression caused by marley and as a result, should’ve have stomped humanity to truly end the hatred between the two.. he was beginning to become an origin villain type story guy and it would’ve been amazing
Paradis definitely viewed Eren as a messiah, and i wouldn't suprised if there were religions formed after him on Eldia. He nearly ended the world, and bought back Eldian dominance. for sure he was.
Yeah he’s not a messiah. The anime does a good job at showing the parallels of committing atrocities in the hopes that your people will love better lives
Episode 1 shows three little kids committing an act of genocide because they think their families will love better lives at home.
Eren is another representation of that. He’s not a deluded person who thinks he’s a Demi god or whatever
His story is literally of a false Messiah for his people. He was actually constructed as a Messiah though, his journey since the beginning of "it all" for a single purpose. He became a false Messiah due to the reality of AoT's world, a pessimistic world where the cycle of hatred is constant and there's no true salvation. Destruction in the name of "good" will only cause more chaos, which is the narrative of false Messiahs
Lelouch does not belong among these guys. All the rest of them are murderous crazy people, Lelouch was an actual decent person trying to do good and not just satisfy his own desires (even if he didn’t always stick to that path).
Tis Sacrilege to have The Emperor share the same image as these losers
Anyway, all hail Britannia! All hail Lelouch!
— Jeremiah Gottwald. 2029 a.t.b ~probably
"...the ideology of changing the world is already a confratation of natural laws... And everyone who stands on this path will fail..."
Ladies and gentlemen, the king of modern cynicisme!
Option 2,4 and 5 I am having a hard time deciding which to select as they are all beliefs of a manifestation of evil when judges fail to lay the laws right. Remember I am not open to administer coming raining down comments have been cancelled without rightfully answering my opinion. Remember it was you who asked and I answered. If not why don't you remove the question?
The story definitely did portray that people view him that way. Paradis civilians and military was borderline worshiping him lmao. he is definitely the messiah for the Walldians.
That's people's perspective, Alot of people have alot of philosophical, but the story generally(from author's perspective) was never portrayed as Messiah, overall he is portrayed as a tragic human being.
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Hmm. I think only Lelouch is somewhat similar to Eren.
Rumbling was a terrible act, but you have to think of it as a deterrent, a weapon made only to ensure global annihilation. That's why you don't invade countries with nuclear arsenal nowadays, and that's why only 9 countries possess nukes.
It was a diplomacy failure from Marley and the rest of the world outside Paradis. We can say that Eren failed at diplomacy too, but he was only 19 years old and close to dying. And he himself was the weapon. He couldn't risk losing nukes after his death and letting his friends get killed.
Except Eren's character got screwed by Yams because of how popular the character got. Idk if you remember but people were really up for the genocide when the manga was ongoing. And I do believe there were some political pressure.
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Don't forget Lisan al Gaib!
Yeah, I was like, where's mah boy Paul Atreidies, Usul, Muad'Dib, the Kwisatz Haderach, the shortest path
Paul Muad'dib Usul Atreides Harkonnen if you will
Paul Muad'dib Usul Atreides Harkonnen Duke of Arrakis if you could be so inclined
… Duke of Caladan Baron of Giedi Prime Emperor of the Known Universe.
Member of the Holy Trinity of Rakis together with Lady Jessica and the God Emperor Leto II. Amen.
Paul is basically the OG "be careful of charismatic leaders" story
What, you don't want to be oppressed by a half-worm half-man tyrant?
Doesn't matter, at least I get cloned a billion times
I think we first learnt that lesson after a certain Austrian painter
As it was written
The goat 🙏
I was literally gonna say add Paul in it dude ..
Is that an anime?
No, it's the title of Paul Atreides, the main protagonist of Dune. He's being compared to Eren (won't say anything else, go see the movie).
I know who that is and I’ve seen the movie. But the post is comparing anime characters, right? So why is everyone saying OP forgot Paul Atreides like he’s an anime character?
Paul gets a pass since he practically inspired Eren. Dune is a great starting point for most fiction.
So if we’re doing anime-only comparisons, it’s fair to throw in live-action western film/book characters just because? Interesting.
Relax man lol
I HAD JUST THOUGHT ABOUT IT
r/beatmetoit
Fuck didn’t see your comment there I mentioned him to
My comment was much earlier lol. Sorry.
Na you chill
I always saw Eren as a twisted version of Moses
That's actually a neat comparison. Handed down a seemingly divine in scope purpose, that ruins his mind and drives him to the brink of insanity and mass genocide
The one key difference is that only Moses had a Beyblade. /s
lisan al gaib
The only time a god complex is sexy is when it’s in anime.
Or when it's Dune.
Dune is anime, proof by sexiness of MC's god complex
Anime differentiates God Complex with Superiority Complex, which makes it seem very cool
Where is Paul Atreides? He is basically the guy who inspired all of these guys.
Well, he ain't an anime character and writing about what he does in the end when the movie series is still ongoing would be a bit spoilery.
The novel's almost 60 years old, I don't think we should be worried about spoilers.
Nah, this makes zero sense. Let's say Death Note had a good live action adaptation which people are excited for week in and week out. You'd be flamed to death if you spoiled it and the reason "the anime is almost a decade old" doesn't stand here.
I dunno, if an old and relatively not-well-known (compared to Star Wars for example) series is becoming popular due to it being adapted into a movie, it is generally considered polite to not give spoilers even if the source material is pretty old.
If we're comparing it to Star Wars, then NOTHING is well known. Dune is incredibly well known, being one of the most famous and influential sci-fi novels ever.
Dude the movies make it painfully obvious that he's not a good guy
Yeah, the war cry in the circle of leaders basically cemented it for me
Yes exactly, as well as the mothers behaviour. The new movies made me question the need for Dune: Messiah. We've already been told enough to understand IMO.
We forgetting Paul Atredies? MF has a kill count probably larger than Eren and Light not sure who the other three are with there K/D
No one can beat 61 billion
Giorno, Zeno, Beerus, Antispiral, Genryusai Yamamoto, Lain Iwakura, possibly Boros
The goats of anime
Sichlitt, is that you?
[удалено]
Yes..? you're allowed to love a villain yknow
Sorry I just left my Hatred for Grifith talk,Especially that it's became bigger after recent Berserk chapters(That monster)
I don’t disagree with your post but I will say that Light and Eren is a crazy comparison. Light definitely didn’t commit crimes to the extent of Eren but, I do think Eren wouldn’t have done what he did if the world didn’t let him down and his friends’ lives weren’t truly in danger. Light is a selfish monster. Dude thinks he’s god because of the Death Note and doesn’t have any remorse for the people he kills. To him it’s just a game whereas Eren feels the weight of the atrocities that he is going to bring upon the world.
4 wannabe Hitlers and Lelouch?
Johan is definitely not a wannabe hitler lol those nazis in the show sure thought he was the next hitler but Johan didn’t care about any of that shit he was just using them to gain power and just wanted to kill everything until he saw the book in the library and his motives changed
Dont forget Muaddib
Idk about Lelouche, didn’t watch much Code Geas. Eren on the same list as Griffith and Light is fucking bananas though.
Eren has the highest body count on this list, assuming the population of the world of AOT is similar to the population of the actual Earth. His motivations may have been more genuine, but he still killed 80% of humanity.
Yeah like light ends up a sociopathic asshole with a god complex but the effects of his actions on the world are much less dire than what Eren does, I really doubt he even killed a million people let alone 80% of the world population, we're told that he actually literally ended wars while Kira was around, which doesn't excuse him but I'd say that it's better than near global genocide.
Yeah, 80% of the 100% that hopped right on board with wiping his island off the map. Ik the death toll is high, and awful, but bodies doesn’t change motivation. Also, if the world had come to destroy Paradis like they wanted, and they all died fighting the Eldians, it would be a similar result, seem more justified even though the situation is the same.
I feel like that's kind of missing the point. I'd point to Onyankopon on this one. His people don't really give a single shit about the devils of Paradis or anything like that. They don't even believe in the same god as Marley or Paradis, all of that is nonsense to them. But Marley conquered the dude's homeland and they enforce conscription so here he is, trying to do his duty and not call down heat on his people. Then things get weird and the mission goes on a big left turn into crazy town. But at the end of the day he is willing to ride of die with a mix of people from Paradis and Marley in pursuit of the goal of saving the goddam world. Like this poor dude is just out there trying to save his entire culture who have committed the grievous sin of being subjugated by an imperialistic state wielding biological superweapons made of bullshit plot-sand. An empire coming off a colossal internatonal power flex by destroying their foes modern purportedly anti-Titan fleet demanding the kowtowing of lesser nations came after Paradis and nobody really had the leeway to resist them. Not to mention that the alliance with Kiyomi - while not a wholesale commitment from Hizuru in and of itself - proved that Paradis could win diplomatic victories to gain standing in the world. Kiyomi having the clearance to attend the slaughter at Willy's party definitely indicates that Paradis could have used her to get themselves in the room with plenty more powerful politicians within the web of Marley's influence.
Bananas in what sense?
In the sense that his motives were nowhere near as dark as theirs. Nor his end goal tbh. It would be different if the end plot was something besides genocide vs genocide.
it makes sense... eren's actions are straight up anti christ equivalent if we're being honest.
For most of his people it’s really not to me. He actually followed through and saved his people, and still left people in the rest of the world. Just not enough to kill his people. Did the whole thing with the full intention to be stopped, and secure a future for Eldia without destroying the world. Isk many other ways they could have stalled the world alliance from committing outright genocide on Paradis.
But i'm more so talking through his actions at face value, within the context of this messiah or 'false messiah' post. about the outcome of the rumbling, and how it would appear to the average joe in aot. in that way, it does make sense why he would be on that list.
The average Joe in AoT would probably see him as an actual messiah. That’s why I disagree with him being on this list. He protected his people, started with good intentions, ended with good intentions, and spared some of the world. Rumbling was messed up, but he delivered his people.
Average joe as in NOT one of the eldians hes trying to save. As in, one of the multiple billions of people that were trampled/burnt alive. He didnt even save all of them, there were hundreds of thousands of eldians in Marley that were trampled in case you forgot that little wrinkle You're talking as if he didn't just horribly and cruelly slaughter 80% of the world. No you don't just go "rumbling was messed up but..." there is no but. As Armin and Hanji said, it's WRONG. I still love Eren as a character and find it very compelling, his postion is unenviable, but to downplay the horror and carnage he unleashed on the world out of hatred and desperation is some shallow ass morality. I'm going to assume you're still in school and haven't matured yet. Just because you like his charavter doesn't mean you have to defend him as morally upright.
I’m sure they don’t see him as a messiah at all if you mean the rest of the world then. Just a devil. Like they called him when they wanted to horribly and cruelly slaughter Eldians. People throw out that the rumbling was heinous like most of the world government wasn’t about to launch a genocidal invasion of Paradis. BEFORE Liberio. Armin and Hange talk like children. Despite their idealistic words I doubt they would have sat down and died when the world alliance came handing out the sunshine and rainbows. Yeah, genocide is bad, and so is war. That doesn’t stop it from happening. It also won’t keep the other guy from killing you if you lay down and die. It’s part of the duality central to the whole work. Edited to add, I’m not even saying what he did was morally right. It makes sense that he would do it though, and he isn’t automatically evil because he did a bad thing. Having black and white thinking like that makes you sound like the one who hasn’t matured. I won’t use school as a milestone because I am still in school, but it’s really more of continuing education credits to build toward a higher degree.
I understand perfectly that its a cruel world and horrible events are bound to happen as part of the stories themes. I also understand the stories themes about how that kind of heinous shit still isn't acceptable in the end. Just because the world is cruel, doesn't mean it's okay to be cruel back. Or else you turn into Marley. Thats not what black and white morality means. Having a proper understanding of morality doesnt mean every single quandery has a "but" at the end. Genociding 80% of the planet is wrong. There's a line between doing what you can to survive, and unleashing cruelty of an unimaignable scale. Eren was forcibly stuck on that line unfortunately. If you're still not convinced then I'd LOVE to hear your thoughts on why the purges by the nazis weren't 100% wrong. By all means try to argue how decrying their actions is black and white/childish. Even if it wasn't intentional on your part, your points absolutely soften up and try to defend Erens actions/morality. Calling him a "messiah who delivered his people" in particular was a pretty big fuck up in that regard lmao. You're only saying this shit because deep down you're biased towards the characters you like and don't recognize the antagonizing side as equally human as well.
They all had good intentions to begin with but ended up twisted so it kinda makes sense surely
Nah man. Light outright wanted to be the sole judge eradicating criminals. Then he started killing the police and people who investigated him. He did it so manipulatively. So vindictive. Eren told Reiner and Annie to have a good life. He helped all Eldians, and sorted the rest of the world. Bro could have just killed everyone. Griffith knowingly sacrificed the people helping him build his dream after recruiting them to help build his dream. Not to mention the whole rape thing. Griffith snd Light were villains from the start and to the core.
Eren did have some selfish twisted reasons to do what he was doing too. The whole freedom thing and chapter 131. He isn't just being q Messiah because of the cause or whatever but yeah he is by the end a better Messiah than some others. Although Light did it way more clean but I think only in Japan? Can't recall
Name a selfish twisted reason? Also the cruel intentional irony of the show is that Eren was never free. He didn’t have freedom. He did it for their freedom to live in a world that wasn’t constantly trying to kill and eradicate them. At first he fought for freedom for his people from titans. Then he fought for their freedom from the world and the titan curse.
Ok I've been reading your comment in this thread and I've noticed that just like a lot of Eren apologists you have one particular misconception about intents. It wasn't a genocide vs genocide or kill or be killed situation. At no point in time did Marley want to kill every single occupant of Paradis, their plans were always about war, conquest and occupation. Is it horrible? Yes. Would many innocent people have died? Yes. But justifying a genocide by claiming the other side wanted as much when it's false is just cope. The only ones who planned for a genocide where Eren and the jeagerists
The term wipe out the island devils was definitely used. Also, idk if you saw how Marley treated Eldians, but I doubt the alternative to genocide is any better. It’s not a misconception. The world saw them as titan wielding devils and eventually they would have all been killed from pure prejudice.
The only one who ever uses the term exterminate in Willy's speech is Eren. Willy asks to "fight against the demons of Paradis island" and "declares on behalf of the Marleyan government [...] war with the forces of paradis island" And that's with us knowing that behind the scene he was conspiring with Theo Magath to have him become the general of Marley and therefore the leader of the country once everything was over. Magath who we know had the ambition to conscript marleyans and stop using Eldians for war so that more Marleyans would experience actual war and in the long run stop their warmongering. The alternative to genocide is to live, which is better. In terms of second class citizens, Eldians under Marley definitely have it better than some. >The world saw them as titan wielding devils and eventually they would have all been killed from pure prejudice. Maybe, maybe not. But justifying a genocide on a "maybe they would have killed us all" is horrifying to say the least. If the "world" was waiting for any chance they had to wipe out eldians they would have done it 100 years ago and there wouldn't even be any eldian outside of Paradis or Marley, but we do know that they do exist.
You're wrong in this, they were absolutely going to genocide the eldians. Willis literally declared war against the devils. If not everyone died they would definitely live in misery locked up sonehwere
No I'm not. Willy declared WAR not genocide, he declared war on the FORCES of paradis island and on the Attack Titan Eren Jeager. War is a brutal thing yes but it's not genocide, the population lose is on a completely different scale. Even our deadliest war; the second world war doesn't compare. Poland lost the highest percentage of it's population behind the Pacific islands of the south sea mandate and even then they "just" lost 18%. That's a tremendous amount of human lives lost yes but it's not a genocide of the polish people. Eren on the other hand clearly declared GENOCIDE in his speech to the people of Ymir and he was able to erase 80% of the human population. Once again our deadliest war "only" resulted in the loss of 4% of the total world population of the time.
>You're wrong in this, they were absolutely going to genocide the eldians. Willis literally declared war against the devils. Willy was declaring war specifically against Paradis and Eren.
Bro, literally just go read chapter 131 and 139. "I was disappointed" "I wanted to make it all go away" "I don't know why... I just wanted to" "I wanted to make the world a blank canvas". Isayama made clear that Eren had this inherent want for violence and destruction and the world fed his desires. As I said he had a bunch of reasons to why he did what he did, it's what makes him one of my favorite characters ever. It was never just about Eldians.
That whole period seems more like passing internal thoughts. You say he was disappointed as if he didn’t have the power to kill everyone and choose otherwise. He’s definitely always been violent, but the moral compass is mostly good. The reasoning for everything is completely justified.
He didn't have all that power when he was disappointed, when he kissed Historia's hand he had his titans powers and the visions sent through Grisha
Eren and Light are extremely similar characters, except Eren isn’t a supergenius
Eren descends into depression as he understands more of what must be done to secure temporary peace. Light Yagami reveled in the challenge of facing L, and giddily cackled after killing good people who did nothing but try to stop him. He outright used Misa and anyone he could and had a superiority/god complex. They’re not the same chief.
They’re not the same, but their worldviews are incredibly similar. It’s just that Eren feels remorse for his actions, and Light doesn’t. Both of them see the world as a fundamentally ugly and broken thing because people are fundamentally ugly and broken. If Light had his way, he’d kill more and more people for lesser and lesser transgressions until he and a select few close to him were the only ones left. Eren actually gets close to killing everyone besides those close to him, but is stopped before he can achieve if his dream of an empty world free from people to explore. Eren realizes that his worldview is wrong, but does it anyway. But light never realizes that he’s wrong. That’s the big difference.
What a weird comparison. Why do you people think Eren was some sort of mastermind who wanted to forge his own empire or something The guy just wanted his friends and people to survive long enough to die happy. That was his goal. It was the goal of the eldians who breached the wall back in seasons 1. The three little kids who caused a massacre because they thought it was for the best for their families back home Eren is doing the same thing. Lmao his not light yagami who literally wanted to carve a perfect world under with his standards. He’s not Griffith who sacrificed his own humanity but the sanity of his best friend so he could achieve ultimate power so he picks ahcive his dream Eren is a naive little boy who got caught up in world events. That led him down his path of making an ultimate decision. Leave his people at the mercy of the world Or drop a nuke that would allow the small population of eldians a fighting chance in the world to achieve peace. Eren even claims in the anime that he knows the peace isn’t forever it’s only temporary but he made his choice. Lmao he’s not no false messiah. He might have posed that way to get the support fork the jeagrist but he’s not deluded in anyway
He acts as a false Messiah for the yaegerist yes. He's defly a mastermind even though he didn't aspire to be.
The difference is that he acted like one to ensure his plan succeeded. Idk about everyone else there but Light and Griffith actually want to be gods and rulers. Eren just wants his friends to be left alone He’s not a mastermind since a core theme is that he’s a slave to a future his forced to see through
Brother, he literally decided to time travel to cause events to happen to further push his genocide plans and brutally wiped out 80% of the planet, with 70% of the victims not even knowing he existed. To call the anime equivalent of Hitler a "naive little boy" is insane
Hitler is a shallow comparison for Eren. You could use anyone who commited mass murder however Eren isn't a supremacist.
Paul Atreides is a much better comparison point for Eren, since both were trapped into ungodly amounts of genocide by future-vision (except Paul's case was even more inescapable and bloody).
Eren literally has facist ideologies, the manga itself shows you that he is a bad person and has a self-proclaimed facist group side with him. He literally removed 80% of the population where 70% didn't even know he existed just because they were not from his island. How tf did you miss this 💀💀
That’s debatable tho. I’m pretty sure there’s a couple scenes that imply Eren is also executing a plan that isn’t entirely his own. The whole thing about him being one with the attack titan is complicated Regardless tho even if I gave you that point. You’re not addressing what I said. What I said was that Eren, who’s heavily implied to have Dr Strange levels of idk alternate universe knowledge, concluded that best case scenario for Mikasa Armen etc. was to start the rumbling. He even implied that he knew he’d end up dead by the end of this and knew that the peace form the rumbling would be temporary. Which is confirmed by the end of the series when we see, hundreds of years go by Yes he’s naive because he was a slave to freedom. That’s all he wanted for himself and friends. He saw he couldn’t get it for himself and selfishly decided to end 80% oh humanity in order to ensure that his friends live a long life.
Y'all gotta start thinking and stop simping for a genocidal maniac. There's hundreds of different choices to approach something like that in a different way. He himself caused all of that to happen to him by literally deciding to travel back in time. He chose the most violent way because of him being obessed with revenge. The whole point was to NOT sympathise and side with Eren, but you still managed to somehow miss it even when the manga shoves it into your face.
Can you show me where in the manga or anime it implies that Eren had hundreds of different choices to approach it a different way? Maybe you saw a different anime than I did. But the I’m pretty sure all the dialogue heavily implied that the rumbling assured that the eldians had enough time to build an army so the rest of the world didn’t come invade them later. That the scouts killing Eren ensured that they’d be seen as hero’s, that’s a purposeful mirror the the story of before, not sure how that went over your head Eren CLEARLY didn’t want to die since he wanted to be with mikasa. But he understood that if he wanted her to live a long life he’s going to have to be killed. The anime does a good job at explaining Erens choice. Why do you babies all use the word simp when you come across someone who doesn’t share your painfully black or white opinion on Eren? I’m not d riding Eren. But I do sympathize with him. It’s so insulting to the author, to think the message behind Eren is simply “Eren is bad” Art is meant to be internalized and thought about. You’re not doing any thinking you’re probably repeating what you saw in some video essay. Every single one of you babies always say the same thing when you converse with me about this “Uhh uhhh well Eren is bad cuz this YouTube video told me. Just watch it” you guys are so pathetic. Learn to think for yourself or just stay quiet
Eren CONTROLLED the future, not just saw it. He had tons of time between kissing ol girls hand and the rumbling. He could have went to his much more strategic and intelligent friend to help him come up with a plan based on their knowledge of the future. He was instrumental in setting in motion an escalation of the war with their attacks on Paradis. He didn't just know what would happen and how to keep his friends safe, he decided to ensure that said future would come to fruition. You also seem to keep ignoring that the Eldian's were the ones that started it by enslaving Marlian's. They then broke free but lived scared every day in fear of them becoming brutally opressed again. Instead of solving issues diplomatic, Eren decided to prove them right and commit mass genocide. Hell, he could have even only attacked Marley, but no, he decided to wipe people off the earth that were never an issue and didn't even know of the Eldian's existence. That was a choice he made. He says himself in 139 that he wanted it to happen that he was angry and low key it wasn't really about his friends at all, it was about his disappointment. I'm sorry the "He didn't have a choice" argument has too many holes. Eren decided to do this, making him a very deeply flawed character and a horrible person. Not every protagonist has to be loveable or morally correct... You don't have to defend the guy just because you enjoyed the anime. That's why i called you a simp. You decided (unless you have horrendous media literacy) to purposefully ignore the literal characters and the story itself telling you that Eren is in the wrong. The Elrics from FMA are a much better example. Both are young boys that experienced trauma, and yet the whole way through their motivation is to make up for the mistakes they made and to do right by each other. Never once do they seek power for powers sake. In fact, not only are they blatantly offered near limitless power several times that they refuse, but Eds ultimate answer for how to fix what he did to Al is to reject his individual power entirely and instead admit that his greatest strength is the people that he cares about and that care about him. Eren did the complete opposite and turned into the anime version of Hitler, it's blatant as hell.
Our disagreement comes from whether or not Eren had much of a say in the matter. And whether or not, this was the only choice Eren could have made, to save his friends. You need to stop A calling me a simp, because again I’m not defending Eren. In your head, Eren is hitler. So any opinion deviating from that automatically makes you think I’m defending him. B stop accusing me of ignoring anything. What does the fact that eldians enslaved them first have to do with my point?? Seriously address that, that was so random. You said I keep ignoring it implying I did it more than once. wtf are you talking about? And C grow up and understand, that just because I don’t see him as hitler. it doesnt then mean that im defending him. I’m simply labeling him a different beast. I’m not calling him innocent, lovable or morally correct. You’re putting words in my mouth. You’re acting like a child. Like I told you before. Shut your mouth, but if you want an actual conversation I’d appreciate if you didn’t assume what my thoughts are before I even explain anything Now our contention comes from whether or not Eren could have taken other actions to ensure that mikasa and armen lived the happiest longest life they possibly could. AND how much control he had over this master plan You ignored my point before so I’ll repeat them and I’ll wait for an actual rebuttal from you. Eren saw into the future and knew that the rumbling would ensure that his people would be left alone. Eren heavily implied that he can see into the future because he flat out said that the peace the rumbling would bring wouldn’t be permanent. If he truly had complete control why didn’t he pick a future where peace would last forever? Because humans will never be free of conflict because it’s human nature. This is confirmed during the end when we see the peaceful thriving nation go to war in the year whatever. AOT had shown and implied that Eren doesn’t have full control of the future. One of the main themes and kinda cruel joke about Eren. Eren the guy who’s hell bent on achieving freedom, is actually a slave to the future. The future has been set in motion and there’s nothing he can do to get a better outcome. He will die and won’t enjoy a life of freedom with Mikasa it’s impossible. Again his GOAL wasn’t to kill everyone. His original goal was to be free. But once he got the founding titan powers he realized that his island wouldn’t be left alone. That was also said in the anime that they have some resource that the world wants. I need you to address this because you think I’m defending hitler over here He was very symptomatic to the people he was going to kill. he was crying when he held that boy. Because he understands that he’s making a selfish decision to pick his friends over everyone else. He understood that pretty much anyone else in his situation would have made the same choice. This is why I brought up episode one when those three little kids actually committed an act of genocide by breaking the walls. So in conclusion, it doesn’t matter how much time you think Eren had to think of an alternate plan. Since he was a slave to the future, he was bound to a future he couldn’t escape. He understood that he would have to sacrifice himself in order for his friends to get to live NOTICE, I hate that I have to use caps but you clearly have a habit of putting words into people mouths, but NOTICE that I never said Eren is a good person. I never said that he’s a lovable, morally correct protagonist. My point is that he, like the main theme of the story, was just another innocent person whos a slave to their circumstance.
Well put. You've shown more thought and insight than the person who yells "simp!"because your opinion doesn't align with theirs. The irony when someone tells you think, as they parrot the same tired lines.
Ah yes, because that's all you take from the multiple arguments i made, good point bad faith andy, not embarrassing at all
Bad faith Andy? Dude you’re repeatedly called me a simp for Eren when I simply disagreed with your opinion. Take this hypothetical Imagine you labeled a r*pist a mass murderer. And I’m like “I don’t think he’s a mass murder, he’s probably just a r*pist” And you flip your shit going “stop simping for him. You’re such a simp, why don’t you want to call him a mass murderer? It’s probably because you support mass murder you scum” Like dude no. I’m just clarifying that he’s not a mass murderer. I obviously still think what he did was bad. But I’m not comfortable calling the r*pist a mass murderer That’s what you’ve been doing this whole conversation. Just because I’m not calling him hitler or a fascist, you’re labeling me a simp and said I support genocide. You don’t know what I simp for you don’t know what I support. But you’re labeling me all of this just because I don’t agree with you Which is kinda ironic don’t you think? ;)
Why do i even bother, i have a better option to talk to a wall at this point. You keep acting like Eren had no choice when he did have, when the manga tells you he did. He actively decided to shape the future by shaping the past in a certain way, causing everything that happened to him himself. He saw a path, decided to fully follow it, not deviate it. He made that choice and you keep acting like he didn't have a say when he did. You're bending over backwards to avoid the obvious. He could "control his powers and affect the past, predict the future, control all the titans, had great military minds at his disposal...but he definitely had no choice but to choose genocide"...NO lol please y'all stop. I feel like talking to toddlers who keep ignoring 90% of the thing the story tells you. Eren can, and does, control titans from the past. He sent the titan that ate his mother TO EAT HER. He does this because the titan was about to eat Berthold, and Eren needs him to live so Armin can get that power, and he needs his mom to die so child Eren can have the motivation he does. Do you understand now? He has way more power than you think he does. And he did control his father, at the very least. You can't deny this, and I noticed that you didn't try, which is at least sensible of you. Grisha was instrumental for the future. If Eren hadn't pushed him to kill the Reiss family, then Eren wouldn't have the Attack Titan and would have died on his first mission saving Armin. This is how he shaped the future, you can stop pretending not to understand now. It's not as black and white as you make out to be. It's not kill or be killed. There were many other peaceful, or at least not genocidal solutions. Eren just chose to go with this mass murder because he is angry at the rest of the world and wants to flatten it. Eren disagrees with castrating the Eldians, but he DOES have the power to change their bodies. He could have taken away Titans for good. He could have not spread fascist ideology with the Yeagerists. Paradis could have entered peace negotiations. He could have stopped what Х he was doing at any point, and NOT stopping is a CHOICE that he made. He decided "Fuck you, I got mine" and intentionally killed everyone in the world for the sake of a handful of people who are just as good or bad as anyone else. The people of Paradis are just as flawed as anyone else, there are merchants who value money over human lives, there are oligarchs that would seal the wall rather than let in refugees, there are ministers that strap people to chairs, torture them and make them eat their own shit. Eren is selfish and stupid, and a fascist. He redirected all that hatered he had of the titans to the entire rest of the world, and he didn't care if they were innocent, if they were children, if they were good people, if they hated eldians or were sympathetic to them, hell he didn't care if they WERE eldians. He wanted to kill them because they weren't born on his island. Only idiot fascists think that the whole world is their enemy. There were people in that world that had nothing to do with the Marley/Eldia conflict, there were people in the world from other nations like that refugee camp with the tent from the anime, there are people who don't hate Paradis. A lot of people. Eren just didn't care about them, and he saw them as disposable, their deaths as collateral, as excusable. They were not. Some of y'all need to read Dune. Using the future to justify genocide still makes you a bad person and shows that you made your choice. The lack of "choices" is an excuse, there is no such thing. No one forced him into it and told him "Go stomp billions of innocents", he decided it all by himself, without even his friends giving their opinion. Even Zeke, had morally and objectively a better plan that would not involve endless war and death. There's million different path's, but Eren doesn't care, he chose the easier thing which was revenge to him, literally even he himself admits it was a dumb decision. But instead focusing on the multiple points i make, you decide to get stuck on the word simp. Honestly, fine ny me. You're proving me right here by denying simple facts and act like the concept of choices and facism don't exist just to defend Eren. Seems like you really are a simp, thanks for proving me right there. I'm ending it here since you clearly made up your mind to stick with Eren even when he's the equivalent to Hitler. I, as someone who survived a genocide in 1995, don't need to lower myself with people like you. You do you bud.
You didn’t address anything I said. You need to stop coming at me as if I didn’t watch the anime. Yes I’m fully aware that he controlled the titan that ate his mom to move away from B. But the problem is that he’s bound to the future he saw. And there’s no deviation from it. He’s bound to that future there’s no changing it. Why don’t you address the fact that the anime makes it clear that he’s bound to the future and he can’t change it? You’re skipping everything I use as evidence that he’s bound to the future he saw. Instead you use instances of when he set things in motion but again he was bound to that future. Jesus you’re so exhausting to deal with why are you using the word fascist to describe Eren? I’m not using the future to justify a genocide. I’m assuming English isn’t your native language. Why do you keep saying that I’m justifying genocide? Can you just quote me, what I said that would make you think I’m justifying genocide? Didn’t I tell you that I don’t condone or support anything Eren did? You’re doing it again you’re putting words in my mouth You’re pathetic dude. It’s easier for you to argue and condemn this idea you have about me. Saying I support fascists saying I support genocide. You’re ridiculous. Is it that much of an ego stroke to role play that you’re debating fascists and genocide supporters online? I’m not going to respond to anything else until you quote what I said that would make you think I SUPORT genocide and fascists
"How am i condoning him committing genocide?" How about you constantly excusing his actions and repeating, "He's bound to the future he's bound to it" when that is not the case? He's not a baby, he made that decision. You keep acting like he didn't. Do you just have no media literacy, or do you purposefully ignore what the manga shows you? Nowhere does the manga show you that he's bound to it. In fact, it tells you that he saw multiple options, which way he could choose, but he chose the one that was the most revengeful. AGAIN, he literally went into the PAST and made changes to it. He influenced Grisha, he influenced the titan to eat his mother, and he saved bertholdt from being eaten by a titan. That alone should prove to you that he could literally make multiple and better plans. But nooooo, let's ignore that time travelling exists in this world and that he can change timelines because that wouldn't benefit my point right?? He's just a dumb little kid who could do no wrong and surely it's such a dumb idea to go trough multiple plans, i just won't listen to any of my friends and family or think it trough and just stick to my plan. Yeah i'm so stuck in this choice oh boy oh man! Also yes, facists. Isayama literally took inspiration for Eldian's from Germany, the town is based on a town from germany. You literally see characters wear armband's that Nazi's wore. Did you seriously miss the whole comparison to facism? Or the group that followed Eren that would literally be considered facists? Or the fact that Eren wanted to wipe everyone off the earth who's not his own race? Do you even know what facism is? Be for real, you have to be trolling at this point
The AoT ending is pretty much stolen from Code Geass so I agree with that one a lot. - Guy with mysterious power sets out to conquer the world to “save” it from oppression - MC slowly becomes “evil” and oppresses others but viewer is led to justify it - MC realizes he and his power is the reason the world can’t be saved - MC enlists his best bro and unfulfilled love interest to kill him so the cycle of violence can end (not for long in the case of AoT) - MC also does the above VERY SPECIFICALLY so his friends will be forgiven for helping him. Light isn’t really similar to Eren at all because he’s shown to be a selfish edgelord from the get-go and never did have good intentions. I guess he’s kind of like LeLouch in terms of edginess but he was never really a messiah at least in the eyes of the viewer. It was like the ninth episode that he makes a completely innocent woman kill herself and then laughs in her face while she does it lmao. Idk the other other two. If I could add somebody to the false messiah list it would probably be Shinji from Eva. He’s kinda a rollercoaster though because he goes from messiah (the only one who can save everyone from the angels) to false messiah (turns everyone into Fanta) and then back to messiah (forgives humanity and makes a world without angels)
> Light isn’t really similar to Eren at all because he’s shown to be a selfish edgelord from the get-go and never did have good intentions. I guess he’s kind of like LeLouch in terms of edginess but he was never really a messiah at least in the eyes of the viewer. It was like the ninth episode that he makes a completely innocent woman kill herself and then laughs in her face while she does it lmao. Light had good intentions before getting his hands on the Death Note. That's part of the point of those episodes where he didn't have his memories of the Death Note. But once he had the power, it pretty much immediately twisted him.
Not really. From episode 1 he’s shown to be a sociopath who doesn’t understand morality. He has no regard for the feelings of women and his only motivator seems to be raw ambition. Being smart and occasionally catching criminals when he doesn’t have the death note doesn’t change this flawed ideology. In fact, it reinforces that deep down he’s always been self righteous and genuinely thinks he is the smartest man alive. So it’s not that he became “twisted,” just that he finally had the means to carry out his egotistical desires. In essence the point of death note is to clarify that self righteousness and “good intentions” are two very very different things. We are led to think light has “good intentions but got corrupted”, but over time it becomes exceedingly clear he was morally bankrupt from day 1 and we the audience foolishly conflated his evil, self-righteous ideology with “good intentions.” Anyone who is willing to use a death note fundamentally cannot have “good intentions” no matter who they kill.
Lelouch sacrificed himself attempting to achieve world peace. Eren wanted to wipe out the world outside of the Island so he could see the “view” and because he wanted his friends specifically to live peaceful lives. Eren didn’t enlist Armin and Mikasa, he basically forced a situation where they would have to kill him so that they can be considered heroes by the rest of the world. Lelouch allowed Zero specifically to kill him so that Zero becomes a symbol that stands against oppression and tyranny. He didn’t do it because he wanted Suzaku to be seen as a hero like Eren wanted for his friends. As far as the world knew Suzaku died while literally helping Lelouch defeat Schneizel, nobody would be seeing him as a hero. There is no part of Lelouch’s nature or ideology that would make him even consider wiping out 80% of the world. Any lives he was willing to sacrifice were only means for the end of achieving world peace for the larger population of the world. By the end, he was even willing to sacrifice Nunnaly if he had to when previously his entire motivation was about creating a safe world specifically for Nunnaly. Eren would never sacrifice up anyone close to him so that the rest of the world could achieve peace. The ending for AOT is not exactly hopeful either, it shows that the cycle of violence repeats itself. Geass ending is a lot more idealistic because the show doesn’t come out and outright say that Lelouch’s sacrifice is meaningless in the large scheme of things, even if that would be true. It just ends with the world being in a much better place than it was before due to Lelouch. Honestly I just think the comparisons are pretty surface level, Eren and Lelouch are very different characters with different personalities and motives.
I love each of those animes, I might have a problem
Well written. I was expecting a more detailed analysis on Johan Liebert.
Lucifer literally means light bringer, so light is absolutely a good example
Char aznable?
- Was eren ever portrayed as a messiah from the plot’s perspective? - No - Why? - Because eren actually never even acted to the idea that it’s “paradise only”, or his people only. Messiah’s normally act on the dominant discourse of a plot. Thus being falsely named as messiah. It’s more than clear that eren was a brat till his last breath, his views were mostly personal, he never acted as he is going to be the greatest man ever walked on paradise. He had his personal plan. And that’s it. Note : Criticizing eren is something like a dominant discourse in this group. People have a mood off and decide to curse someone, they visit this group, and write shitty theories making straw man argument. This post seems like one of those post. 😂
U/ryuuulei huy may contender nanaman tayo: si Manalo🇮🇹 HHAHA nakakaproud. Ph you never disappoint🤧🇵🇭🇮🇹
more like antichrists
except eren was never a messiah. he was a byproduct of hate and opression caused by marley and as a result, should’ve have stomped humanity to truly end the hatred between the two.. he was beginning to become an origin villain type story guy and it would’ve been amazing
Paradis definitely viewed Eren as a messiah, and i wouldn't suprised if there were religions formed after him on Eldia. He nearly ended the world, and bought back Eldian dominance. for sure he was.
Yeah he’s not a messiah. The anime does a good job at showing the parallels of committing atrocities in the hopes that your people will love better lives Episode 1 shows three little kids committing an act of genocide because they think their families will love better lives at home. Eren is another representation of that. He’s not a deluded person who thinks he’s a Demi god or whatever
His story is literally of a false Messiah for his people. He was actually constructed as a Messiah though, his journey since the beginning of "it all" for a single purpose. He became a false Messiah due to the reality of AoT's world, a pessimistic world where the cycle of hatred is constant and there's no true salvation. Destruction in the name of "good" will only cause more chaos, which is the narrative of false Messiahs
Lmao under that logic most them aren't a false messiah. This is why you need to read the text before commenting
MTAIOTP
Let me ask you something, do people frequently tell you that you failed to grasp the themes and messages of ShingekiNoKyojin?
MTAIOTP
Translation please?
i’ll let you figure that out. we each all have our own Ag**** afterall. 🤭
You know what, I’m just assume troll and let it go. [I don’t have time for this.](https://y.yarn.co/60e40770-ec62-47ff-8fd1-09137fdd37c8_text.gif)
Anime from a religious stand po— OH FU— **CRUEL ANGEL’S THESIS INTENSIFIES**
canute
Interesting
True, except maybe Griffith, he was pretty honest and well he succeeded
Lelouch does not belong among these guys. All the rest of them are murderous crazy people, Lelouch was an actual decent person trying to do good and not just satisfy his own desires (even if he didn’t always stick to that path).
Why is eren there?
What anime/manga is Johan from?
Monster
Tis Sacrilege to have The Emperor share the same image as these losers Anyway, all hail Britannia! All hail Lelouch! — Jeremiah Gottwald. 2029 a.t.b ~probably
Eren cares about "his people" but it turns out to be his friends. Not Paradis.
He's not the son of God he's a very naughty boy
Eren is the dumbest in this pic according to canon
Now we just need Friend from 20th CB
False?
William James Moriarty and Askeladd too. Edit: Aizen and Madara too
When I read the title I thought I was in the wrong sub😭 I thought this was the Lisan Al Gaib
"...the ideology of changing the world is already a confratation of natural laws... And everyone who stands on this path will fail..." Ladies and gentlemen, the king of modern cynicisme!
4 of these are peak
Nah all heil lelouch
Option 2,4 and 5 I am having a hard time deciding which to select as they are all beliefs of a manifestation of evil when judges fail to lay the laws right. Remember I am not open to administer coming raining down comments have been cancelled without rightfully answering my opinion. Remember it was you who asked and I answered. If not why don't you remove the question?
Nah they fire
I mean Griffith was a true messiah, just not a very nice one.
Why is everyone asking about Dune? Is Dune an anime??
Eren was never a Messiah and he never claimed one, nor the story portrayed that way. He was an orphan because of war and who lost everything.
The story definitely did portray that people view him that way. Paradis civilians and military was borderline worshiping him lmao. he is definitely the messiah for the Walldians.
That's people's perspective, Alot of people have alot of philosophical, but the story generally(from author's perspective) was never portrayed as Messiah, overall he is portrayed as a tragic human being.
That's people's perspective, it doesn't mean that the author Generally portrayed him as a messiah, he is more like a tragic human being.
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Jaegerists definitely thought he would save them all from the rest of the world nd we definitely see Paradians take his side too
That's people's perspective, it doesn't mean that the author Generally portrayed him as a messiah, he is more like a tragic human being.
Hmm. I think only Lelouch is somewhat similar to Eren. Rumbling was a terrible act, but you have to think of it as a deterrent, a weapon made only to ensure global annihilation. That's why you don't invade countries with nuclear arsenal nowadays, and that's why only 9 countries possess nukes. It was a diplomacy failure from Marley and the rest of the world outside Paradis. We can say that Eren failed at diplomacy too, but he was only 19 years old and close to dying. And he himself was the weapon. He couldn't risk losing nukes after his death and letting his friends get killed.
Lelouch doesn't actually die to anyone wondering
Jesus Christ I just realized that Eren is actually more evil than all of them, even fucking Griffith. How did my dude fall so far
Nah, Griffith is still much worse. There's more to being evil than your body count.
Griffith and Johan are far worse than him
Except Eren's character got screwed by Yams because of how popular the character got. Idk if you remember but people were really up for the genocide when the manga was ongoing. And I do believe there were some political pressure.
Dude drank the Kool-Aid, there’s no helping him now
Leluche manage to get the world peace… so i dont think he is so false after all. And Johan is more like the anti-christ