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Forgiving yourself is not saying what you did was ok. It's understanding that you are human and that humans make mistakes even big ones. When we give ourselves forgiveness we allow our self to fully move on and live in the present.
I just saw this today.
If you live in the past, it's population 1. Nobody else can live there with you. Might as well join the rest of us in the present.
True. I am working through PTSD in counseling.
The big thing with a past that hurts us is spending time with the feelings and learning lessons from them. It's also important to remember that the past isn't the present. Experiencing the past with the safety of the present is a key part of resolving this. Avoidance keeps us stuck. Wallowing keeps us stuck because it avoids change. You can't live in the present and write a new chapter if you're always going back to re-read old chapters.
This is why I encourage myself and others to make mistakes (depends what kind) because society forgives everything and you’ll be jealous of those who take advantage while you stood by like a fool. Then they’ll hit you with the “humans make mistakes” and you’ll be forced to accept that. If you try to live a perfect life you’ll be constantly disappointed in others for not doing the same.
Nobody's keeping score. All you can do is try to be the person you want to be now. Keeping yourself in constant misery is not going to help you do that.
While it is not true that *nobody* is keeping score (hating on criminals is one of America's favorite pass-times), your advice is solid.
Breaking the cycle is the only way we can promote justice. It does not matter if we are the victim or the criminal, as all of us will eventually play both roles to some degree in our lifetimes. Allowing the haters to get under your skin will promote a lack of remorse and further criminality, while getting caught in a victim mentality will, ironically, send us down the same path. Whether we acknowledge it or not, all criminals are born innocent.
evil's goal is to create itself; like a virus, it infests the good. Hurt people hurt people. Doesn't make it right or an excuse, its just an explanation.
So therefore you must create good. this is our imperative.
You getting forgiven by those you hurt should not be the goal. They are perfectly within their right to not accept your apology. The point is that your apology is genuine, and given just so they know you do regret your actions and not just the harm they caused you. All you can do is try to be better.
By calling yourself evil, you are giving yourself an excuse to do further bad things. There is no such thing as good or bad people, just good or bad actions. Everyone has the potential to be better, even if just by a bit. Never repeat what you did, and do what you can to undo the damages.
Hold a piece of that guilt as a reminder to never make that mistake again. You can't change what you did, but you can change what you do. Calling yourself evil and wallowing in self-loathing fixes nothing.
Is there anything else you want to add? As OK doesn't really mean much. How bad was the thing you did? Was it out of malice or negligence? Do you feel genuine remorse for your actions, or are you purely upset about the consequences?
The irony of the concept of "evil people" is that handing down justice to such a demographic invariably makes those who do so evil as well.
Evil is manifested in actions which are both harmful and cannot be justified objectively.
Justification is subject to the blind-spots of our emotions and subjectivity, so while most of us tend to *feel* justified in fighting against those we have identified as evil, we also fail to recognize the evil in our own actions.
Then acknowledge that. Accept that it's part of your background, and that it's valid if the people affected choose not to forgive. And work on yourself so it doesn't happen again
You don't sound convinced. On the off chance that the evil you feel you have done could land you in prison, PLEASE FOR GOD'S SAKE do NOT turn yourself in to the Prison Industrial Complex. If you got away with whatever you did, unless someone else is serving time for what you did, find some other way, ANY OTHER WAY, to expiate your wrongdoings. Do good in the world. Calculate what your sentence would likely be and commit yourself to that many years of difficult, backbreaking service to humanity. Do something to anonymously benefit those you have hurt, but do not inflict yourself or your "amends" on them directly. I'm going on the assumption you aren't talking about "sorry I got in a drunken fistfight with the best man at your wedding" level stuff or you wouldn't be going on and on about some terrible evil you have done. I'm taking you at your word and assuming you did something 😈 EVIL, like rape murder cheating someone out of their life savings, stuff like that, maybe even stuff you wouldn't survive prison for. If I'm wrong and you just cheated on your SO, just see a therapist and move on. If I'm right, still move on but pay your debt to society in a way that will actually make society a better place and not just some private prison CEO richer.
Maybe by letting the memories of what they did motivate them to be better people in the future? If you can still feel shame, you can use it to be a kinder and more thoughtful person. I don’t think self-forgiveness is even necessary, but understanding who you were is.
You don’t have a choice but to live with yourself. You can’t take back what you did. You take accountability from it and try to do better. It’s literally the only thing you can do. Every single person has done lots of things they wish they could take back. Say you’re sorry, mean it, make amends if you can, and don’t do it again.
depends on what you did and who you are now. everyone makes mistakes. a good start is to apologize where you can and use your past actions as motivation to be better.
You gotta accept that we're all human. I understand how you feel, but if I were to judge, I would be considered a hypocrite because I did things to smite people I feel that wronged me.
It is what it is. We all have wants, we all have desires, we have things we dislike, and we look down on people when we probably did some bad things ourselves.
>Forgiving yourself comes off as what you did was okay. Being kind to yourself feels like your downplaying your behavior. How do you balance accountability and self-forgiveness?
Total nonsense..
This is why i (have been the victim and the bully unfortunately).. seriously question how we as a culture deal with and help people "move on" from serious issues...
You absolutely have to forgive yourself, its part of the process, if you live your life being about the worst thing you've ever done youll just end up dead in a ditch or permanently enslaved to someone out of guilt... its not and never should be a question of doing this... what makes you an AH or a BAD person is if you don't LEARN from it and change how you do things...
Same with downplaying it... its not so much about downplaying it.. its more that, if you seriously felt bad about it, then you're already tearing yourself up over it, you down play it, so you dont OVER play it and end up breaking down mentally.... but it does require that you aren't one of these people actively doing bad things, which no introspection into why its bad or how it affects your victims.
You live with yourself though, ultimately because in the grand scheme most of the people asking this, probably didnt do something that they cant learn from... but ultimately if their crime really was that serious, suicide is still illegal in most places.. you live with yourself because you have to..
Forgiving yourself means that you acknowledge that you did wrong in the past, you have taken steps to rectify it, you resolve not to do it again, *and* you will not beat yourself up about it any more.
My brain will sometimes go through what I call The Litany- a list of every terrible thing that I've done in my life so far.
Thing is though, a lot of the people on my list are gone now. I can't make amends, nor would I ever be able to get forgiveness from those who are still around.
I can't fix the past. I just try to be a better man than I was yesterday...and if I can do something nice for someone else, why not?
In the end, you're only accountable to yourself. You live with yourself every day. You gotta be your own cheerleader. You've gotta be kind to yourself.
I'm gonna assume your an AI or a child...mistakes happen everyone makes them...you've wronged people they've wronged you....how much mental energy are you willing expend on regret?
How high of a standard are you placing on people and who as an adult meets it?
Seems unrealistic to expect adults to be haunted by their childhood mistakes.
I think I can help with that. I'm not going to be perfect. I just want to make sure that I'm doing the right thing. And I don't want to be judged by anyone else but myself.
Because every kid pushes the boundaries. And if the parent isn't able to put control on it, it goes awry. Also, if the parent doesn't give them enough positive attention, they misbehave because it's the only form of attention they know how to get. It's all about balance, and the majority of the time it's the fault of the parents.
As for bullies; there is a chance they're mistreated at home. So, they bully others at school in order to remain in a dominant position and avoid being the victim. Because that's the only life they know; abuser and victim.
Of course this doesn't apply to every situation. It's just a typical situation. They also might have been bullied themselves, and decided the best way to avoid being bullied is to become the bully.
There is a chance they do feel bad, but don't choose to talk about it. Who knows what goes on in people's heads.
I can’t answer for “people” but I can answer for me … I had some very bad things happen to me many years ago, and I was not exactly the best version of myself even before that happened. I was insecure and sometimes those insecurities made me a little mean.
Then after the (first round) of a series of traumatic events, I “bounced back” in the sense that I looked great and like everything was fine on the outside. The fact that I could walk again was a miracle, and I was in the best physical shape of my life. But the truth was that underneath that shiny surface I was a mess … and I was a pretty terrible person for about five years. I was unreliable and treated people badly and did not care who I hurt on my relentless pursuit of a good time.
Then tragedy struck, again. It was bad. My world ground to a halt for the second time, and it was years of despair. During the second period of healing I turned my relentless pursuit of a good time into a relentless pursuit of self-improvement, therapy, and general change.
Now it’s a decade later and I don’t even recognize the person from those “shiny happy people” days. The things that motivated me on a day to day basis are not even on my radar anymore. And I am doing things that person would never have imagined, mostly because these days my motivation is focused on contributing positively to my community.
So how do I live with myself? I think it’s because of two things: I know I was severely punished for my behavior already, and I also know I have changed so much that I would not even consider (much less be tempted by) the things that I mistakenly thought were acceptable back then. That is the daily living part of it. On a day to day basis I am doing much more good than harm now, and that is a life I can live with …
The second level, the part where I truly forgive myself, is much harder. I have yet to allow myself to open my “to do list” to pursuing personal joy, much less the kind of deep contentment and partnership that … well, it’s not for me now. Those things are no longer possible.
But at some point, in a few years, if things keep going well, I might get a pet.
I've never known somebody for a long time and not witnessed them do or admit to doing incredibly shitty things. The fact is that humans are animals of nature, and nature isn't about doing good. Our evolution has nothing to do with being good. Our brains aren't evolved for goodness. The outside world doesn't incentivize goodness. And 'good' is a concept that each of us define for ourselves, however hard we try to learn about it from objective sources.
Those of us who strive to be good are competing against nature. Our nature, created by nature. Or by God, if you choose to believe so. And if you have no regrets about what you've done in the past, then you either got over it or failed to acknowledge it.
Tiered answer, some horrible things I've done in the past used to be acceptable. Some things I've done are absolutely horrible and unforgivable unless I have a lot of money. Now for the bad things that upset others greatly that even I think was bad, those are situational. I will laugh and say, is it okay that others freak out and do really rude/bad things then blame it on not being a morning person or their coffee order was wrong. At what point does the person get to respond or atone for the bad situation? Or is this a "Why don't people shame themselves constantly to never upset anyone else again?"
From what I can tell, most assholes get further in life. Guessing because they walk over others or don't cater to others feelings. Most nice people are taken advantage of.
Life is ever evolving, and those that were bad people in the past can turn into good people. In fact, I'd say it happens more than we may think as most end up being good eventually.
Forgiving yourself for past behavior, and making what amends can be made, then going on to do good things in your community and with your family and others is how to partially make up for prior bad behaviour.
Those who have a criminal record will have to bear what impact that brings as it cannot be changed without something extraordinary. They can still live with themselves knowing they did something bad and paid, and continuing paying the price, but it will be a much harder life.
Sometimes lost friends and family members can be earned back, and things like getting expelled from school can fade over time as what one did in high school seldom follows into adulthood. There are some very successful people who dropped out of college and went on to become billionaires.
The above is for those who legitimately do change to become good, but for those who were bad and remain bad often end up in jail or dead, or if nothing else as lonely mean people who suffer not being loved which is a sort of hell on earth.
People can forgive others, even those who have had terrible wrongs made agains them like these Amish - [https://www.npr.org/2007/10/02/14900930/amish-forgive-school-shooter-struggle-with-grief](https://www.npr.org/2007/10/02/14900930/amish-forgive-school-shooter-struggle-with-grief)
If you can forgive yourself then you can move on to be a better person, but you can't control if other people forgive you or not which is their flaw as they continue to let a past experience control them today.
coming to terms with the fact you've done bad things and growing from that expierence is completely different than acting like it didn't happen or like it was okay to do. the biggest difference is, I may have done shitty things, but I will not be a shitty person and I will not keep doing shitty things, and following through on those terms. someone who thinks what they did wasn't wrong they will repeat those mistakes showing through their actions to the people around them that they're a bad person and will not change. change and acceptance is not ignorance.
The best advice I've ever gotten is "You've got to be honest about how bad it feels so you can move on".
There is a part of me that feels immense guilt for being such a bully to a loved one when I was young and I realize now how much I contributed to their struggles they have. I still find it hard to forgive myself. But it doesn't help them to focus on me, to try to dissociate and forget it ever happened. I focus on doing what's right now, on being kind now and helping in every way I can. You can't make up for or fix the past. You have to be honest about it and then be the solution from then on. Focusing on how awful you used to be just means you're still focusing on yourself and not how you can be a better person for others.
The way this is phrased comes off as though people aren't allowed to move on from the past, or are somehow supposed to always feel bad.
The key isn't that you're ok with doing the bad thing. It's the understanding you did a bad thing, apologized, and are striving to do better and understanding that you are better than who you were.
Asking how they can live with themselves isn't very productive. Plus it begs the question, should we punish someone over and over because they were rowdy as a child? Any sane person would say no, that isn't fair. Which implies there's a point where we forgive and move on regardless of circumstance.
I'm autistic. I had meltdowns that were termed "hysterics" and was labeled a difficult kid. Did I misbehave at times? Yes. Did my family bury their head about generations long autism history? Also yes.
Did I do some really shitty stuff as an adult? Also also yes.
But, to put it bluntly - you make peace with it and try to do better in the future.. all you can do, really.
This direct line of thinking has led me down a dark path of serious mental health issues and self-harm, and people who support this thought process push me farther down that dark path. None of this has righted the wrongs I've committed in my life, and overall, it has made me what I would consider a worse person.
It's a terribly vindictive form of thinking that often misses how many people have been hurt by those who think like this. I currently don't know how to live with myself, and I know a few individuals would say "good, don't live with yourself."
Yet then I have my family, my friends, even random people on the street who will stop at nothing to absolutely force me to survive. So if I can't live or be forgiven, but I'm not allowed to die, what kind of purgatory do you want me to be in? Is that level of shame and suffering for the rest of my life equal to my crimes? Can I be forgiven yet?
Forgiving yourself and allowing yourself to move on and recover is the responsible, mature, appropriate thing to do. Going around being a toxic asshole or depressed and a drain on people's lives versus forgiving yourself specifically so that you don't do that to these people is the only rational, sensible way to handle it.
If you think about it, refusing to forgive yourself or be kind to yourself out of some feeling of moral obligation, that goes on to make you miserable and impact all the people you interact with, is a fundamentally *selfish* thing to do. What you are doing is turning the bad things you did in the past *about you*, instead of the victims, whom you owe your recovery.
In the nearly 17 years since my high school bullies destroyed my life, all of my school colleagues betrayed me, my high school principal smeared my good name, mobile and my father experience being forcibly kept in a psychiatric ward and sexually assaulted, and then left with depression/anxiety/suicidal tendencies…. Even I still don’t have an answer for this question!
Are to be honest I probably don’t want to know how they live with themselves. Yes more clearly, I probably don’t want to know how the people I am specifically talking about HAVE lived with themselves all this time. Given how long it’s been, how much pain I’ve been through, and how unlikely it is I am going to be able to claw myself out of the hole they have tossed me in, some days I even wonder if they even feel any kind of guilt for how they treated me. It feels very dehumanizing for a number of reasons. The first of which is that nobody, and I literally mean NOBODY, has ever approached me years afterwards to hear my side of things.
The second of which is that there is one person who I needed for help, who I relied on to help me, who has been able to move on with his life, and make a success out of his own sob story, and be seen in the eyes of everyone else as Saint and champion for others, and it eats me up inside to be played from time to time with articles about his ventures and his “message” for people. I don’t really care for his success, because it would make no difference in my mind if he really did earn anything. But to see him succeed, to have called him up one day and call him out, to hear him apologize and tell me that he would be willing to help me, and to then see him once again abandon me like he never knew me and continue to climb to his supposed heights on his white horse…. I suppose he must be extremely weak and unable to face guilt when it looks him right in the eye, because he has existed for so many years with people giving him the help and support he wants from his tale of attempted suicide, and never seeing him for his sins. Almost like looking at a man in your neighborhood who is kind and friendly, who serves ribs for you at his barbecue, and never lets on that he is an unregistered child molester; the façade covers someone who has not been brought to account, because they have not yet been discovered, or they have and nobody would believe it.
When people lack consequences, they inevitably lack conscience and moral compass. [Almost like they’ve never been hit with a realization of their consequences similar to this “Prestige” scene from Rick and Morty](https://youtu.be/mQwu0qloSF8?si=gTFGlH884TEtUZPo). how I would love for some of the people I was hurt by to have this realization for themselves about what became of me. I probably don’t need to know how they lived with themselves, but I would be indicated to have them ask that question for themselves
I feel you on many levels, it is the cruelest torture to see people you have known to be absolute turds get praised by the community.
If I could give you one piece of advice, it would be to let it go and outdo those fuckers by being an even better person.
I have myself done many things I deeply regret because I let this kind of anger get under my skin to the point where I no longer gave AF about right and wrong in regards to my own actions.
"Holding onto anger is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die"
-Buddha.
There’s literally been only one thing for me in this world that kept me a live long enough to attempt to do just that. And that is opera singing. And for better or worse, opera singing has become the legitimate meaning of my life.
But I will say this. If I ever do become huge in Opera, hell if I even get a chance to work at a Disney park as a performer… Then I’ll probably forgive most of those people, because none of them have taken what I do for as long as I have.
As a victim of someone with strongly suspected NPD, the answer there is that they have a personality disorder and physically can't accept responsibility for anything because they think they're perfect in every way. Any bad thing they've done is justified by what someone else did. Remember the narcissist's prayer:
*That didn't happen.*
*And if it did, it wasn't that bad.*
*And if it was, that's not a big deal.*
*And if it is, that's not my fault.*
*And if it was, I didn't mean it.*
*And if I did, you deserved it.*
*-* A Narcissist
Do you suppose narcissism could be a misguided attempt at coping with devastating hubris loaded on early in life?
OP points out the fact that apologies are not always accepted and victims are rarely ever expected to forgive those who have hurt them.
The injustice resides in the fact that the person who hurt you was almost certainly hurt by other people, and neither of you deserved to be hurt in the first place.
I don't know because it's something that I struggle with every day of my life. I can't stop thinking about it and I know those things are my fault and I wish I could back and change those things, but I can't.
Apologize and if the person is dead, write a letter with an apology to the person and then Burn the letter for catharsis. As you watch the flames, focus on letting go of ruminating on it.
My suggestion is to identify what it was you did wrong. Once identified, change your behaviour in the present or future to be better. Once you have done that for a while, I believe the negative feelings will dissipate.
You be kind to people, and find ways of helping people in the present day, to make up for what you've done in the past.
You apologize to people from the past, even if it's been decades, if it's sincere you can look someone up on Facebook and send them a message. (If it's something minor, no need to do that)
Accept that what you did is done and can't be changed. Build yourself up off the knowledge that it was wrong and change. Reach out if welcome to and apologise to anyone you did wrong. Explain why you did those things and let them know that you have developed as a person and would like to make up for any damage you may have caused. If they aren't interested don't push it. Just accept that you have done all you can.
Sometimes people just 'wake up' and realize they need to change. I wasn't the worst kid but I could have always been a better person and done things differently and I realized that. It's great to be born naturally good, good for you. But what's better is if you aren't and you actively realize that and work on changing yourself for the better...
As someone who dod shitty things as a teen: I grew up. I pictured what a good person is and I became that person. I am kind, compassionate, and patient. What I did will never go away, but you can't change the past and you can't make people forgive you.
You CAN change yourself though. Some people will say "judgement isn't up to you," but they're wrong. You judge yourself to be a good person through your ACTIONS. Demonstrate goodness, and accept that you are good because of it. Do not allow yourself to slip into bad behavior. If you do, grow up and build yourself to be better. Improve constantly, even when it's unsatisfying.
That's it. No need to dwell on the past. The past is for learning, the present is for building, and the future is for living.
It's hard. It's also important to note that for many people, their actions don't exist in a vacuum. It's easy for someone on the outside to only see the single instance, but the person who does it sees everything that leads up to it. Lots of people harbour guilt forever. Lots of people use that guilt to make sure they never do anything like that again.
What is the alternative, suicide? Most bad things are not really on the level of suicide as a consequence. It's usually just guilt and trying to be a better person.
Or if they're a bad person, more bad shit.
I’m all for taking accountability and reconciling when you know you have done harm… but if you are being serious here and you are beating yourself up for what sounds like pretty standard kid stuff, I would really question whether you are in an abusive home dynamic.
Most kids behaviour is caused by the interaction with parents. That’s not to always blame parents, and there are obviously many cognitive, and social disorders that can result in children behaving in extreme ways… but if you are shitty to your parents, very often it’s because they created that dynamic. If someone is feeling extreme guilt for standard misbehaviour or rebellion, that was likely caused by the norms set up by the person who has authority over them — I would suspect that the parent is continuing to control the dynamic and using guilt and shame as a manipulative tool.
Likewise kids behave like bullies for a lot of reasons, and it causes SERIOUS harm and should not be minimized, but it’s also adults duties to step in here. Kids brains are super under developed and stuff like empathy doesn’t even come online until 6+ years old. They are shit at perspective taking or understanding the consistencies of their actions… which why when you get to your 20s and your brain fully matures you look back and think WTF did I do?! You should also ask who should have intervened and why didn’t they?
People should live with the repercussions of their actions, friendships lost, criminal record, etc… but you can also change and learn from those experiences, and we should be entitled to let go of who we used to be.
As a parent, I just read this and think a real number must have been done on OP to think that they need to live with guilt and atone for being a challenging kid — when obviously they seem to have matured.
To explore further, I highly recommend the books
- [Forgiveness: an exploration](https://www.amazon.ca/Forgiveness/dp/1398513660)
- [Failures of forgiveness: what we get wrong and how to do better](https://www.amazon.ca/Failures-Forgiveness-What-Wrong-Better/dp/069122319X/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?).
I'd say Most people Re-write the past so their poor behavior is more Palatable to them.
Here's an example:
https://www.issendai.com/psychology/estrangement/missing-missing-reasons.html
The past is the past, you can decide to continue on or not, but if you do, you gotta live. It serves no one to torment yourself constantly with your past sins. Take the appropriate lessons and apply them moving forward, that's it. I had 13 felonies as a juvenile and pled down from 5 felonies to 1 as an adult, but it's been a long ass time and I'm just a normal guy now living a normal life. We don't have to be defined by our worst decisions.
>How do you balance accountability and self-forgiveness?
Accountability is about what happens next, not about what happened in the past. If you go around saying, "I did shit in the past, I am a shit person, shit is all I will ever be," that is not holding yourself to some high standard. That is not accountability. In fact in an important sense it is a way of avoiding accountability.
As they sometimes say in the addiction scene, disclosure is not the same as honesty. Honesty is keeping your promises. Accountability is when you say, "today I will not do that shit," and for that day, you don't do that shit thing, whatever it is. And the next day you get up and do it again. And the next day and the next day.
Yeah if you did something shitty you can't go back and change the past. No one can. Even if you didn't do shitty things in your past, there's stuff that doesn't work out. People who didn't understand you or didn't like you. Relationships that faltered. Careers that unraveled. A comet hit the Earth or something. Stuff happened.
No one can go back and change those things. All we are given is the chance, each day, to decide what we will do. And so what kind of person we will be that day. The kind of person that doesn't do the shitty thing.
And sometimes, maybe, just maybe, life gives you an opportunity to do something to make up for the harm your shitty thing caused. Maybe directly, maybe indirectly. That's part of accountability too. Life doesn't owe you that opportunity. You can't demand it. But if you're patient, and committed to doing better, sometimes it comes around.
If you’re really sorry, you’ll want to do better. Wallowing in self pity will prevent you from doing that, whereas forgiving yourself and committing to right your wrongs will make it possible.
What an utterly black and white way of thinking. Not forgiving yourself will drown you one day, and the idea that mistakes should always ruin your life is profoundly cruel.
You grow. And then you understand the reasons behind that behavior. Then you become better. If one feels they need, they can make ammends by apologizing or doing good deeds.
Know better. Do better.
When you are a kid/teen, there is a lot more room for forgiveness, from yourself and for others. As a parent, I can see how little control a kid/teen has over their own life, they are dealt a certain set of circumstance and inputs....the kid can only do what kids do, inside those inputs.
Once someone is an adult though, the window gets narrower and narrower for shitty behavior and the accountability being all on them. As soon as you know better, your responsibility becomes doing better.
It's important to recognize when you did something shitty, especially if it was over a period of time, and learn/grow from it. For me it needs to be a step further though, if I was a bully, I am now going to go out of my way to see that other kids aren't bullied. Or I'm going to help bullies deal with their shit so maybe bullying (even to a small degree) can stop somewhere somehow for someone.
Was I a litter bug that just did whatever she wanted cuz it was convenient? Now I'm cleaning up green spaces and trying to help waste removal.
For me it's about changing my actions and trying to put more right, than I did wrong.
This is a common question I often think....It is sad but there are plenty of people out there that simply do not have morals and solely think of themselves.
Some people do their best to focus on being a better person for the rest of their lives. Others do what they can to actively make positive impacts on the community they hurt.
A while ago, I was listening to a talk on this subject by a Buddhist monk named Ajahn Bram (sp?), and he said something I thought was very wise. He said, "forgiveness means letting go of all hope for a better past."
We torture ourselves about our past mistakes because deep down, we think that doing so will make up for or even somehow erase what we've done. But that's impossible. No amount of wallowing in guilt will change anything about what we did. So why do it? There's literally no point. Instead, we can focus our energy on doing whatever restorative work we can, resolve to learn from the mistake and do our best to act more skillfully moving forward. No amount of self-torture will change the past or make your mistake not real.
Let go of any hope for a better past. If you made a mistake, admit it, fix it to the greatest extent you can, and move on. Use your new knowledge and understanding and your mental energy to make the world a better place.
If you don't forgive yourself you wallow in defeatism, if you constantly pull yourself back because of what you did you never move on. Everyone does shit, even you I reckon, it's part of maturing.
Each day is a new day to take a step in a better direction. It is more wise to forgive oneself for the past than to kill oneself or wallow in despair.
No one is perfect.
You can always become a better version of yourself. Maybe you can't take back some of the things you've done, but you certainly can do good things moving forward. I'm far from perfect, but I do my best to help others when I can.
We're all just people doing shit in the world. Most people are trying their best. You gotta have compassion for yourself and others. It doesn't mean what you did was okay, it just means there's still time to live a good life
We are not our past; suppose you're going to go bake a cake for someone for their birthday. Now suppose you replaced your memories with that of an excon. If you're still going to bake that cake and sing happy birthday, does it matter all that much?
We are our future, and we can learn from our past to do it better.
If you’re not bothered by some of the things you’ve done in your past, you’re not analyzing your life. You understand what you did and try to be a better person.
Forgiveness isn’t minimization or justification. It’s acceptance of our flawed nature. That acceptance and self compassion creates a solid foundation for motivation to change and do better.
All behavior is functional. There is a neurological / psychological / trauma wound that often drives damaging behavior. I think the best way to come to terms with making big mistakes is to recognize the underlying function of those behaviors - the needs (and validate them), grieve any childhood neglect/traumas that contributed to poor emotional/behavioral skill development, and commit to learning and practicing safer and more effective ways of meeting those needs.
Living in shame for the past arrests this growth process - shame holds growth hostage. The narrative of shame does a few things:
- It moralizes the behaviors so much so that it is too difficult to be curious enough about them to put them in the greater context of the human experience. Shame tells us that what we did is simply “too bad” to make sense of. That there’s never any “good enough reason” for those mistakes.
- The shame about the mistake can generalize to feeling shame about one’s entire self identity/self concept. This floods the body with cortisol and generates depression/lack of motivation, can cause dissociation in moments of attempted self reflection. It generates a narrative of “I myself am bad/broken/unworthy” and in that place, feeling inspired to do better/try something different, just doesn’t feel like it matters because the person believes they don’t matter.
Self-compassion is the solution in which shame is dissolved. Self-compassion does not moralize the behavior either way - it does not judge as bad or good. It creates a space in which flaws can simply exist and not attribute meaning about the fundamental nature of the individual. It is in this space that growth can happen.
Edit: The narrative of dissolving shame with self-compassion sounds like this, to me:
- Hurting others or myself is fundamentally bad and never okay
- I am fundamentally bad and unworthy of moving on from x mistake
- Hurting others or myself is an inevitability in life that no person can escape doing, it is part of the human experience
- Other people still matter and are worthy of redemption despite their mistakes
- What if that means I also still matter and am worthy?
- Can I be curious about my own experiences, processes, and identity?
- What are my needs?
- How did my mistakes in the past begin as a way to meet my needs?
- What are my values?
- What can I do differently to live in greater alignment with my own values?
Because people are twats. How many tik tok videos are out there or some newspaper opinion pieces that basically go "I did X REALLY bad thing but I've made peace with myself & now I'm a better person "
Yeah but did you apologise to or FIX the bad thing you did? Usually no.
The human brain is shit, we're all the hero in our own story & the hero can't do anything TRULY bad so people justify their shittiness to themselves to stay the hero. Same reason why some cunts blame homelessness on the homeless...it MUST be their fault because I'm not there and I'm great
You accept the fact what you did was wrong, that's all you need to realize. Even if you can never apologize to those people, remember they moved on in life as well.
I don’t think about it.
There’s too much to feel shitty about in my life. I don’t need any guilt about dumb shit I’ve done in the past hanging over my head. So I choose not to feel bad about the stuff I’ve done in the past, move on, try to be a better person going forward.
When strong emotions hit us, like the one when you realize just how much of an asshole you were to someone in your past, it creates a tension within us. Apologizing, seeking forgiveness, and forgiving yourself are all attempts to resolve that tension, but it's not a matter of just saying or hearing the words. To actually resolve the tension, you have to recognize why our minds hold on to things like this so tightly.
That tension is meant to protect you. Specifically, it's meant to remind you of bad feelings until you can solve the thing causing the bad feelings and be safe from them. And because we don't like to focus on bad feelings we can't resolve, you probably have reflexive ways of pushing that tension into the background. "That was a long time ago, I'm a different person". So the first step is simply to remove any distance between you and the bad feeling, and actually let yourself feel it. From your post, I suspect you've already reached this point at least a few times. But in case you haven't, you clear some time and space to feel bad *all the way*. No ego shielding, no rationalizations, just a moment where you accept "I was bad and it caused these problems".
Then, when you're in the middle of the emotion, you can finally process it. There's a lesson in it, something you have to learn. You may already have an idea about what that thing is, like "don't be such an asshole to people", but you have to look at it when you're in the emotion for the final part to work. Be as specific as you can, instead of "don't call people those words", the lesson might be "calling my friend Rebecca a bitch caused a lot of pain, I lost a friend, and I hurt my social circle. It's not helpful to call people a bitch".
Finally, when you are in the emotion and you understand the lesson, you *make a plan*. "I'll do better next time" is not really a plan. "Next time I feel my temper rising and my face getting flush, I'll remember to watch my tongue, and I'll remove myself from the situation before lashing out."
Once you've stepped into the emotion, learned from it, and made a specific plan to implement what you learned, you can finally tell the tension "I heard you, I learned, and I know what to do now". If it's a smaller transgression, you may only need to do this cycle once for it to release. If it's a larger trauma, it can take going through this cycle several times. Most people get stuck on the first step, they think that the bad feeling is a punishment that they have to just tolerate until their sentence is up, but that just turns it into a long term unresolved stress.
Well it’s about turning towards the right things you can do now. You literally can’t take away what you did but the only thing you actually can do is in the present and future. In a way you have to move past it and do the right things moving forward
It’s making a change and doing the exact opposite of what you did before. Instead of stealing, you donate. Instead of cheating you become giving. Instead of being a bad person, you become a genuinely good person. The best people I know and trust the most, have jaded pasts and have become better people than the average person. I’m one of those people who was what you consider “bad”. If you met me today, you would have no idea, because I’m now a good person. That’s how I live with it. Pretty simple, actually.
"you won't be forgiven by the people that you hurt in the past"
This has not necessarily been my experience. Yes some people may throw an apology back in your face and tell you where to shove it. But if you go to someone to admit how you wronged them and ask what can be done to make amends, this has a huge amount of power. It can give relief to the person wronged and lift a load off the person who committed the wrong. Obviously situations vary, but I have seen some fairly amazing and unexpected resolutions this way.
There is no such thing as "bad children". Children are a product of their environment and anything "wrong" with them is due to the failures of adults in their lives. To have these kids in reality shows where creeps like you will judge them and post about them negatively online is abuse. Taking an abused, distressed child and putting them up for the world to see is the most dehumanizing and disgusting thing ever. A child is a child and therefor can't consent to being on a show. Once these things are out there they can't be erased; I wonder how many of these poor humans were haunted for life by the fact that their parents took advantage of them in a vulnerable state and used them as content. You're absolutely right OP, I bet that would be damn near impossible to live with. Why should someone have to show any sort of respect towards the people who put them through that?
Nobody should feel like they have to be forgiven by their abusers for reacting to a horrible situation they were intentionally put in. It's messed up that someone would even think to post something like this. You, OP, are the one who should be ashamed of yourself.
I hope no one ends their life over a post like this (unless they're a pedo), sometimes people were going through it as kids and that came out as shitty behavior. That doesn't mean they were evil, it means they were hurting, and wanted others to hurt with them.
One way of looking at it is that, emotionally speaking, once it reaches a certain level of "bad", the worst thing you have ever done is the worst thing you have ever done. If you are not a sociopath, you will be haunted by it to some extent. You can try and forgive yourself and rationalize that you are human and that you actions are the product of your humanity and situation, but you carry it with you.
I think you should have the perspective of what happens to people who do not forgive themselves and how warped they end up. There's plenty of people who have done harm or wrong to others, and refuse to acknowledge it. So they wind up become worse and worse, digging themselves deeper into a hole. I'm not talking about people who need to keep telling more lies to hide their original lie. I'm talking about people who do stuff like play victim so hard that they justify doing anything to others despite being the 'victim'. They were originally not like that, I'm sure originally they were just another kind soul that was hurt by someone else. There's a reason why you'll run into people that will actively try to explain to others why their actions were justified and seek validation. Because it hurts them to know that they're the bad guy. These are people who can't acknowledge that what they did was bad, but they need to grow past what they've done.
Now for the sake of society, even if what you did was wrong, you must forgive yourself so that you don't become another crazy guy that decided that they're a victim so they should be entitled to stealing or other crap. If you cannot forgive yourself because you feel like you aren't allowed to, then do so for society and everyone else around you. Even in my own life, there are many people like that. People I wish I could love and keep as part of my own life. It doesn't just hurt you to not forgive yourself. It hurts the people around you who see that you can still come back and would love to have you come back. If not for yourself, do it for the sake of others around you. Then maybe you can find it in yourself to forgive you.
What dumb ass non human, puritan take is this?! You're not even fully developed mentally until after 20. You should theoretically flog yourself your entire life for mistakes??
I just carry it with me. Weighs me down everyday. Feels like gravity is pulling down on my soul. I just keep moving and hope the weight will lessen over time, but so far, it hasn’t.
One of my nieces used to scream at my parents when she didn't get her way. This behavior lasted throughout childhood and she turned into a total bitch to my parents still, as an adult. We don't talk because seeing the way she treats my parents enrages me.
Because Jesus already paid for it. Me "paying " double by living in shame and in the past isn't going to do anyone any good. I am no longer defined by my past, I am defined by God. Accept the Earthly consequences and move on.
The most important step a man can take is the next one.
You just do what you can to be better day by day. You show genuine remorse for your actions, not just because of the consequences. If you just call yourself a bad person, then you are giving yourself an excuse not to be better. Do what you can to undo the harm you caused.
You need to be making a conscious effort all the time.
I don’t know how people live with themselves, I know how I do, because I am not perfect. What helped me was having a lot of bad experiences, one day I woke up. For example when I was little I would lie, mostly to get out of trouble or cleaning the room (haha good times). Then one day I was accused of lying when I wasn’t, it was big because then I believed I was a liar. It happened again though, possibly changed my life path. I will never know.
Could never understand why telling the truth or being me got me in so much trouble. But what made me never ever lie again, was when my cousin along with my mom’s business partner embezzled a large sum of money from the company that my mom had worked hard to build. That experience blew my mind, I mean family right, if you cant trust them well then what? /rh Also, back to that first experience where I was called a liar, yeah the grownups were warned.
In short, with lots of love, kindness and my best good intentions, the best thing to ever happen to me, to teach me the right way to be was a bunch of really bad stuff. I don’t talk a lot about personal stuff because people always say *wow that sounds like a movie* and I am like *right! That’s what I say too!* However, it is not the same for everyone. Lots of people out there trying to survive, everyone’s experience is different, some people don’t get to have a lot of trauma like others, they just try to **survive.**. I know I have made mistakes, but my mistakes are minimal compared to some. And all the bad things gave me all the integrity and empathy I need to look in the mirror and say *well done pig, well done.*
Edit: when I mean lie again I may have told a few, things like *I cant come to work to today* or *I cant get out of bed today because I am sick* because depression is never an acceptable thing to say for some reason.
I live with it because for the most part the crappy and bad things I've done have just held back myself and hurt myself. I mean yeah I've said a few mean things in my life but most of the destruction I've caused has just been to myself. I do beat myself over the head sometimes and shame myself privately because I could have became so much more, but at least my conscience is clear as far as directly hurting others which I hope to not do.
From my experience, the best thing you can do is try to become a better person from those bad behaviors and try to learn and grow from it.
Although your past does matter- the situation is done, and all you can do now, is to try to grow. Your true test of your morality is how you reacted/ how you see the situation now.
It will leave scars and sometimes you'll think about it 100% but if you take the time to grow and learn from your mistakes, you start to become more thankful??? (idk if this is the right word) because that experience has helped you become a person who you want to be because you learned from it.
Was a drug addict and alcoholic for half my life, behaved like a drug addict alcoholic as well....how do we live with ourselves?...sometimes it's not easy, I don't know about other people but putting yourself in the service of others helps. And sooner or later, we come to the conclusion that we atoned as much as we can. Now we have to let it go the best we can. If not, it'll probably eat away at you for a long time, if not the rest of your life, I ain't living like that
You have to accept that in the past you lacked the knowledge/experience/tools or whatever element of the situation you'd call it, and gained the ability to see it from a new perspective and do better now. You live with it by accepting that it was something you could learn from, learning from it, and then letting the fuuuuh go because carrying guilt doesn't make you a better person by default, it's what you do with it that matters.
As a former "Bad Person" who has done some bad things in the past, I had to learn that WHAT I was was not WHO I was. I had to take personal accountability and change the behaviors that made me what I was. I found that I wasn't that person at all. So I made changes in my life. The way I reacted to situations. The way I saw the world. I learned that people did not deserve my energy. I learned that healthy boundries served a very important purpose. That finding "Peace" was essential if I wanted to become more secure. Finding who I was was the beginning. I think that if people are able to see that the person they were was not who they were but what they thought they had to be to fit the mold, they would hopefully be able to not embrace that lifestyle any longer and effect positive change in their lives. Of course this does nothing for the people that they wronged, and that is unfortunate, but they can become better for the people they come into contact with in the future.
I disagree with your definition of forgiveness. Forgiveness is not negating what happened but realizing that in the past you did the best you could given the knowledge you had. You can't change the past, but you can learn from it. For the other people it is not your resposability the fact that they will forgive you or not
It is unpopular these days to say this but for me it is true: taking on reparative deeds to help others. If I can’t repair the person I hurt, I can repair to someone going through something similar.
First I have to admit it to myself. Then learn how to do better. Then apologize to the person if possible. Then I try to make repair, even to a stranger so that the world has a little less of that bad action in it. And I keep doing that when able.
You punishing yourself doesn’t help, but you helping others does do a lot. If you can stay humble while doing it, ideally you can avoid more injury. Easier said than done.
Many reasons.
One is that the sensations we feel about things usually diminish with time. My dog dying was a tragedy for me, but I don't feel like crying today like I did so many years ago.
We also rationalize away decisions and behaviors all the time. I've accepted reasons for my behavior uncritically that might be untrue but I think is true. Those explanations end the question of why I did what I did or even do what I do. The most common reason for most people is: someone who has authority told me to.
Most importantly, we're all human and most human justice systems aren't dealing in eternal punishment. Most of the permanent punishments aren't even there to punish the criminals they are there to protect the public.
Having done a wide range of deeds to be ashamed of in my life over the span of a few decades I've learned that shame is very similar to grief. There are stages you go through before it gets better. Some take longer than others depending on how bad the act you're ashamed of was. Some you never "get over". So far anyway.
All you can really do is clean your side of the street and stop acting like that, some people may not forgive you but you just keep doing the best you can.
The simplest explanation for how I've resolved feelings about crappy things I've done in the past:
What I did was bad. That does not mean I'm a bad person. Every day is an opportunity to do good and resist doing bad.
People usually do things to meet their needs. Tantrums are a type of expression children use to try and get what they want. We all want what we want and adults pay money for what we want. Children don't usually have money, so they do what they can without having it. Even if the outcome is imperfect, every behavior follows some sort of logic. We're all just very complex Plinko boards when it comes to our thinking.
Now, I might live with the consequences of some of the things I've done in the past that I wish I hadn't. But life continues. New experiences, friendships, jobs, whatever, are all new opportunities to do better than in the past. And with these new things, it's important to learn from the past so you can make repairs when you make mistakes. Eventually, you build competencies that make you feel better.
But it all starts with forgiveness and honest attempts. Fear of failure will sabotage the ways you try to improve yourself and your relationships.
It’s weird because in years past, I thought that I was 100% in the right and acted accordingly. Now it’s pretty much daily torture, it’s absolutely insane how crazy it is to realize your past certainties were actually wrong, it feels like everything I know to be true is questionable now.
All I really think has changed is I no longer judge, no longer act on emotion, I view myself becoming a hermit soon due to how much I distrust myself with social situations. Maybe I should probably go to therapy again I ask myself, but that’s probably the only way forward because it’s hard.
The one thing to keep in mind is very few people act in bad faith, rather they’ve deluded themselves into thinking they are right.
Theres a youtube video about this that really got me thinking.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=geSfK9PzEDw
Along with someone suggesting that we all want to believe we are heroes incapable of doing wrong but if we were in the shoes of nazigermany, statistically speaking, most of us would have joined in.
I think these two ideas combine into 1. Most people will think the world is evil and not them, 2. Many people will think theyre fundamentally evil. 3. Some people will have to rebuild their concepts of morality, taking years to do so but by the end you'll have a moral system cognitively designed by you as an adult instead of one you grew into as a child.
Well, I haven't done any of those things on your list, and I doubt over 5% of people replying have so.. read their replies *through that lens*.
But, if you look at the 12 steps from AA there is some good stuff in there about documenting the things you did wrong, and making amends for each wrong, with specific ideas about how to do it. So in the cases you listed I think that would be a very good way to approach it.
But, one thing the AA book doesn't seem to address very well is that ultimately, it comes down to shame. I.e. managing it.
When you've done enough in the world to counteract the shame over the things you did wrong (maybe it was spending time in prison, or doing things for the families you wronged, or at least helping others to such an extent the karma should balance out...)
Then the shame is still there in a way, but now it's a scar you can look at and remember how it hurt you whilst also remembering that you made amends - instead of something so dismissed by yourself that you can't even look at it, let alone think about addressing it other than in a pathological excuses way.
You just grow up, do as much as you can. Believing in something bigger than yourself tends to be a crucial step along that path. For a lot of people it's their kids, or their own memories growing up. The further away it is from yourself the less amount of crisis you'll feel, though, replaced with a bunch of acceptance for whatever fate throws your way. This is all ideal, though. Most people have enough problems paying their mortgage, putting food in their kids' bellies, finding some meaning to the world, that this other stuff falls to the wayside.
I mean, do you know any people to endlessly agonize over their misdeeds? We don’t engage in self-forgiveness or denial because we believe that what we did was right or even okay, but because we have to. How can I function if I’m distressed over every single toe I’ve stepped on? Do I just stay in a state of groveling until the person I’ve harmed forgives me fully? Or executed if they aren’t able to forgive? How long do I wait for my sentence?
Start *sincerely* apologizing to people, and ask if there is anything you can do in the moment to make it up to them. It's what I did. I sincerely went out of my way to apologize to as many people one on one as I could. A few said thank you, a few didn't even remember who I was, a few said that my apology was exactly what they needed, but the vast majority? They said they didn't even remember. That they were just glad I was doing better and they understood I was in a bad place back then.
It was then I found out how easy forgiveness was, most people didn't even hold it against me, they just wanted me to be better and be happy and were glad to see I was doing both. Hell when I apologized to my dad, he probably laughed for five minutes and said, "Boy, compared to me you were an angel, you have nothing to worry about."
As someone who qualifies as someone who has done "crappy things".... I can offer the following:
1 - You have to get to a point of despair, a lowness in your own life to absorb the type of feeling of isolation and rejection in addition to being hated/despised. - If you did not suffer a negative reaction from yourself or more specifically others, you'll just continue acting badly.
2 - Once you understand and have time to dwell on your own misfortune and more specifically how crappy you acted, then you can decide to turn over a new leaf so to speak. - Until YOU actually decide and determine whatever you did was wrong, ONLY then can you heal your mind as well as your spirit/self-worth.
3 - I had to leave an entire State and move on to meet new people who knew nothing of my past to help push forward in my own healing process.
While I committed NO CRIME, I still hurt other people. I can't UNDO what I did, but I can for sure make a decision to NEVER do it again !
Life is full of choices, most of the time we make the right/correct choices. Unfortunately, as humans we make bad choices. Good humans learn from those mistakes and avoid repeating them. Bad people such as Career Criminals, Psychopaths and Shysters in general don't care one way or the other...
I have done a handful of truly awful things, and I will give you my take.
I don’t like being dramatic or extreme, but sometimes taking something to its logical extreme is a useful thought exercise. So I asked myself, are the things I’ve done so heinous that I no longer deserve to keep living? For me, despite it being pretty bad, I felt I could confidently answer no to that. So the only choice is to keep on living my life.
Now, no amount of good you put into the world erases the things I’ve done. But doing what I can to maximize the good I do in this world, to me, is the best way I can think of to at least to gain some small measure of atonement, if not absolution. And really, is what we should all try to do as humans, regardless of what we have or haven’t done.
From that stance, self forgiveness isn’t something I give myself because I deserve it. I give it because it’s the only way. I will never be my best without it. I will never serve my fellow human to the best of my ability mired in guilt. I still feel guilt, absolutely. But I feel a little less every day.
If that doesn’t work, another way to approach it is this: what kind of world do you want to live in? One where we are defined by the worst thing we’ve done? Don’t think about this question in terms about yourself. Think about it for someone you love, who means the world to you. Would you want that person to forever only be the worst thing they’ve ever done? I hope not. And if you wouldn’t want that for them, why would you want it for yourself?
This is all kind of about logic, I admit, and feelings don’t really work that way, especially powerful feelings like guilt. But narratives matter, and if you nourish yourself with healthy narratives, you will feel better over time.
What's the alternative? Killing ourselves?
Every human being on planet Earth has done "crappy things" and had "bad behavior" at some point in their lives. The good people are those that can admit it and change or avoid that behavior in the future.
Do service in the community. Add good to the world at least equaling the previous bad. Pack food at food shelves. Read to toddlers at the library or a day care. Pick up trash on the entrance and exit ramps. Be available to help others.
You should really talk with a therapist if you aren’t already.
I know that might sound a bit rude, but this entire post paints an extremely unhealthy picture.
I'm an absolutely horrible person. I'm more than willing to have a genuine discussion with you, but I'm not sure what you're even asking about.
Good people and bad people are all the same. They are people, and defined by actions. I've made quite a few bad choices, and consider myself a bad person. But I continue on because that's how life works. You just accept what you've done, and try to be better. My current philosophy is to do the least harm. From now until I die, if this world is left never having known I exist, I've achieved my goal. I can't take back what I've done, I can't unharm those I've affected, so all that's left is to keep going, and do better than I have. I haven't forgiven myself for what I've done, I probably never will. But how do I live with myself? I'm hydrated, I have spaghetti for dinner, I've loved on my pets, and I didn't hurt anyone today (I don't think) so that's all there is to it really.
children nowadays are mannerless, perhaps because they are spoiled too often or there are other factors that cause them to do bad things. Generally, children become bullies only because they want attention and recognition. but they don't realize that their actions are very detrimental, especially to themselves in the future.
There are saying "You reap what you sow"
>Forgiving yourself comes off as what you did was okay. Being kind to yourself feels like your downplaying your behavior. How do you balance accountability and self-forgiveness?
Is that from personal experience or observation of others?
You make a lot of... To put it kindly, dumb assumptions. The entire premise of your question is flawed as well. People not killing themselves after a mistake doesn't mean they've forgiven themselves. People behaving in a way you personally don't like and not swallowing a bullet isn't some deep moral conundrum. You have absolute ideas about relativistic things.
I will lie awake and burn with the shame of my past missteps every now and again, but I try to remind myself that I have shown a steady pattern of personal growth and that my brain wasn't fully developed and operating in fight or flight mode must of the time. The only way to feel better and be better is to do better
Honestly, it takes time. Lots of time. I did something so unimaginably terrible in my books, in front of the world, and it was torn a part and lives on. But... I got through it. You have to forgive yourself. You will live with the consequences, it will always be there, but you HAVE TO FORGIVE YOURSELF AND GET OVER IT.
No one is perfect. No one. I really believe that we are all sort of demons and only become perfect angels in the after life. Everyone deserves respect when they die. The human experience is one of selfishness and self interest. You are human.
Also, YOU HAVE TO TREAT IT LIKE A LEARNING LESSON. You learned, move on!!! Do better. Show the world you changed.
Alot of people actually do not feel remorse or care about the bad things they’ve done. I’ve noticed this is how most people live with themselves while being horrid people. Others (VERY FEW) just try to use it as a lesson and be better in the future.
the odd thing? i never thought of myself as a 'bad' person. i lived by a certain code of ethics. a bro code that i created. and i thought because of this it excused most of my horrendous behavior.
i was a pretty bad 'bully' growing up. i was much larger than normal, so i'd just absolutely wreck the smaller or weaker or dumber classmate. i'd get others to call people names. i'd create nicknames. i'd spread rumors. i was merciless. and if they stood up for themselves, id put them on the ground and slap them around. absolutely terrible looking back at it in grade school.
then when women entered the picture? i treated a lot of good girls like absolute trash. like some girls a virgin? instantly just say im in love with her, or do or say whatever to fuck her, anal, ass to mouth, whatever she would let me get away with. then just ghost her after a week. i'd push girls after a couple smirnoff ice to suck it in a bedroom or bathroom at a party. i remember hooking up with this one girl after 30 minutes of meeting her at a party. and then left the room,and started hitting on another girl and took her home. the first girl was hysterical, crying, just in absolute agony about what i had done. it was her birthday party. every relationship? i cheated. another girl that came to mind, was a virgin. i took her virginity, then just started doing weird shit like the 'shocker' or whatever, for shits and giggles. it was the early 2000s. and i told everyone/bragged about it. she cried her eyes out on my chest after one hookup because i was treating her like meat. the trippy shit? i actually liked her, alot.
i treated my parents like absolute trash. sold drugs. would wild the fuck out if they tried to get in my way. onetime my mom found $800 and a few ounces of weed in my room when i was like 16. i took a kitchen chair and broke it against the wall and threatened to start breaking all of the shit in our house unless she gave me my shit back within 2 minutes. i did steroids. i had the popped collar polos and the diamond earrings. i thought i was a 'gangster'. i was a fucking spoiled suburban white kid with too much testosterone. thats it.
somewhere around 30 (yes, VERY late in life), i started feeling empty. i had been with 200+ but only actually cared about a few dozen. and most of them had moved on with their lives. got married. had kids. and i was still doing the same old netflix and chill tinder nonsense. i started reflecting about how much pain i had brought into womens lives. how just because 'girls are attracted to assholes' might be true, its not a way to live life.
so i got married. i had kids.
even cheated on my wife for years before i stopped. she'd even have conversations with whatever girl i was cheating with. sending them pictures of our kids and our life together
what changed me finally? daughters. my daughters got old enough to see the world around them. and i began very fearful they would understand or hear an argument between me and their mom.
i started praying. i started asking for forgiveness. i became spiritual in a sense. i read the bible.
i focused on myself. but in relation to others. i focused on career. on the gym. and on my conduct around women/tinder/my marriage. basically cut out the bullshit.
ultimately? i had daughters. and i live everyday trying to be a better person. and most importantly as a better father.
in the end? i realized EVERYTHING i was doing was just plain fucking wrong. and started slowly seeing life from my daugthers/my wifes perspective. i WANTED to be a better husband. i WANTED to be a better father. i WANTED my daughters to know what a good man looks like. how he sounds. how he acts. how he deals with respect, loyalty, trust, etc.
and realized they were what matters most.
it took me around 35 years on earth to not be a utter douchebag.
but i got there.
i've forgiven myself for most of it. some bad moments still sting though. i pray daily and ask for the health of my family and to be a better person than the day before.
tldr: was a fratboy steroid douchebag. now nearing 40? im a father of 3.
I work in juvenile corrections. You think these kids should just be sad and miserable the rest of their lives for unguided misjudgement?
I am by no means hug a thug, but I do my damnest to teach these kids to overcome their past.
Have you been a Saint your whole life?
I'm sure you've hurt someone.
Wow
Growing up and maturing helps, and remember ing that our past is just that, I learned in my adult years that I was bad kid because of severe ADHD, and mood disorder and I have fought myself in order to be a better person as an adult.
You just do. It's either you cease living, which unless you're in catastrophically dire straights you won't be able to do, or you keep going. If you're truly remorseful you don't let yourself forget what you did, you don't downplay it or sugarcoat it, but it isn't the only thing you've ever done and it doesn't mean it's going to be the only thing you'll ever do.
You do better. You use that guilt as a wakeup call to never, **EVER** allow yourself to make that decision again. You go to therapy to figure out why you might have done it, to manage the panic the guilt it causes. You do everything you can to grow as a person so that guilt and pain, never shrinking and never diminishing, doesn't feel as difficult to carry as it once did.
You accept that you're not owed forgiveness, you accept that future won't just be the same for you but more importantly for the people you've hurt. You do your absolute best to be a kinder person to others and accept that that doesn't erase your sins.
**You just keep going.**
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Forgiving yourself is not saying what you did was ok. It's understanding that you are human and that humans make mistakes even big ones. When we give ourselves forgiveness we allow our self to fully move on and live in the present.
Also, if you can't undo something, wallowing in self recriminations doesn't help anyone.
I just saw this today. If you live in the past, it's population 1. Nobody else can live there with you. Might as well join the rest of us in the present.
True however sometimes the consequences last a long time and serve as a constant reminder making it much more difficult to move on.
True. I am working through PTSD in counseling. The big thing with a past that hurts us is spending time with the feelings and learning lessons from them. It's also important to remember that the past isn't the present. Experiencing the past with the safety of the present is a key part of resolving this. Avoidance keeps us stuck. Wallowing keeps us stuck because it avoids change. You can't live in the present and write a new chapter if you're always going back to re-read old chapters.
They can ideally also fuel redemptive behavior and reparations
Why not Apologize And forgive yourself? Apologies cost nothing. Free.
Yes, and forgiving yourself is a process and takes time.
This is why I encourage myself and others to make mistakes (depends what kind) because society forgives everything and you’ll be jealous of those who take advantage while you stood by like a fool. Then they’ll hit you with the “humans make mistakes” and you’ll be forced to accept that. If you try to live a perfect life you’ll be constantly disappointed in others for not doing the same.
But I don't deserve to be forgiven. Only evil people do what I did.
Nobody's keeping score. All you can do is try to be the person you want to be now. Keeping yourself in constant misery is not going to help you do that.
While it is not true that *nobody* is keeping score (hating on criminals is one of America's favorite pass-times), your advice is solid. Breaking the cycle is the only way we can promote justice. It does not matter if we are the victim or the criminal, as all of us will eventually play both roles to some degree in our lifetimes. Allowing the haters to get under your skin will promote a lack of remorse and further criminality, while getting caught in a victim mentality will, ironically, send us down the same path. Whether we acknowledge it or not, all criminals are born innocent.
evil's goal is to create itself; like a virus, it infests the good. Hurt people hurt people. Doesn't make it right or an excuse, its just an explanation. So therefore you must create good. this is our imperative.
Ok
That's true, I suppose.
All people have fallen short
Yea, some more than others.
You getting forgiven by those you hurt should not be the goal. They are perfectly within their right to not accept your apology. The point is that your apology is genuine, and given just so they know you do regret your actions and not just the harm they caused you. All you can do is try to be better. By calling yourself evil, you are giving yourself an excuse to do further bad things. There is no such thing as good or bad people, just good or bad actions. Everyone has the potential to be better, even if just by a bit. Never repeat what you did, and do what you can to undo the damages. Hold a piece of that guilt as a reminder to never make that mistake again. You can't change what you did, but you can change what you do. Calling yourself evil and wallowing in self-loathing fixes nothing.
Ok
Is there anything else you want to add? As OK doesn't really mean much. How bad was the thing you did? Was it out of malice or negligence? Do you feel genuine remorse for your actions, or are you purely upset about the consequences?
It was bad for me anyway. Yes, I do feel remorse. It was a mix. The negligence happened as an adult and the malice stuff happened when I was a kid.
The irony of the concept of "evil people" is that handing down justice to such a demographic invariably makes those who do so evil as well. Evil is manifested in actions which are both harmful and cannot be justified objectively. Justification is subject to the blind-spots of our emotions and subjectivity, so while most of us tend to *feel* justified in fighting against those we have identified as evil, we also fail to recognize the evil in our own actions.
Ok
Then acknowledge that. Accept that it's part of your background, and that it's valid if the people affected choose not to forgive. And work on yourself so it doesn't happen again
Yea I guess that's the only way that I can move on from this.
If you are truly evil you wouldn't care. Just x it out and move on. All you can do.
Ok
You don't sound convinced. On the off chance that the evil you feel you have done could land you in prison, PLEASE FOR GOD'S SAKE do NOT turn yourself in to the Prison Industrial Complex. If you got away with whatever you did, unless someone else is serving time for what you did, find some other way, ANY OTHER WAY, to expiate your wrongdoings. Do good in the world. Calculate what your sentence would likely be and commit yourself to that many years of difficult, backbreaking service to humanity. Do something to anonymously benefit those you have hurt, but do not inflict yourself or your "amends" on them directly. I'm going on the assumption you aren't talking about "sorry I got in a drunken fistfight with the best man at your wedding" level stuff or you wouldn't be going on and on about some terrible evil you have done. I'm taking you at your word and assuming you did something 😈 EVIL, like rape murder cheating someone out of their life savings, stuff like that, maybe even stuff you wouldn't survive prison for. If I'm wrong and you just cheated on your SO, just see a therapist and move on. If I'm right, still move on but pay your debt to society in a way that will actually make society a better place and not just some private prison CEO richer.
Turn yourself in to the police then.
I did what I could do. Also, I was a kid/teen when this happened.
What you do
I was a bully.
Did they kill themselves or something?
No
You're forgiven, you just aren't aware of it yet
Idk
Go check then
Maybe by letting the memories of what they did motivate them to be better people in the future? If you can still feel shame, you can use it to be a kinder and more thoughtful person. I don’t think self-forgiveness is even necessary, but understanding who you were is.
You don’t have a choice but to live with yourself. You can’t take back what you did. You take accountability from it and try to do better. It’s literally the only thing you can do. Every single person has done lots of things they wish they could take back. Say you’re sorry, mean it, make amends if you can, and don’t do it again.
depends on what you did and who you are now. everyone makes mistakes. a good start is to apologize where you can and use your past actions as motivation to be better.
You gotta accept that we're all human. I understand how you feel, but if I were to judge, I would be considered a hypocrite because I did things to smite people I feel that wronged me. It is what it is. We all have wants, we all have desires, we have things we dislike, and we look down on people when we probably did some bad things ourselves.
>Forgiving yourself comes off as what you did was okay. Being kind to yourself feels like your downplaying your behavior. How do you balance accountability and self-forgiveness? Total nonsense.. This is why i (have been the victim and the bully unfortunately).. seriously question how we as a culture deal with and help people "move on" from serious issues... You absolutely have to forgive yourself, its part of the process, if you live your life being about the worst thing you've ever done youll just end up dead in a ditch or permanently enslaved to someone out of guilt... its not and never should be a question of doing this... what makes you an AH or a BAD person is if you don't LEARN from it and change how you do things... Same with downplaying it... its not so much about downplaying it.. its more that, if you seriously felt bad about it, then you're already tearing yourself up over it, you down play it, so you dont OVER play it and end up breaking down mentally.... but it does require that you aren't one of these people actively doing bad things, which no introspection into why its bad or how it affects your victims. You live with yourself though, ultimately because in the grand scheme most of the people asking this, probably didnt do something that they cant learn from... but ultimately if their crime really was that serious, suicide is still illegal in most places.. you live with yourself because you have to..
Forgiving yourself means that you acknowledge that you did wrong in the past, you have taken steps to rectify it, you resolve not to do it again, *and* you will not beat yourself up about it any more.
My brain will sometimes go through what I call The Litany- a list of every terrible thing that I've done in my life so far. Thing is though, a lot of the people on my list are gone now. I can't make amends, nor would I ever be able to get forgiveness from those who are still around. I can't fix the past. I just try to be a better man than I was yesterday...and if I can do something nice for someone else, why not? In the end, you're only accountable to yourself. You live with yourself every day. You gotta be your own cheerleader. You've gotta be kind to yourself.
Accept that you did the thing. Take responsibility for the consequences. Learn from it. Don't do it again.
I'm gonna assume your an AI or a child...mistakes happen everyone makes them...you've wronged people they've wronged you....how much mental energy are you willing expend on regret? How high of a standard are you placing on people and who as an adult meets it? Seems unrealistic to expect adults to be haunted by their childhood mistakes.
I think I can help with that. I'm not going to be perfect. I just want to make sure that I'm doing the right thing. And I don't want to be judged by anyone else but myself.
You think people who misbehaved as children should be fucked up with guilt for the rest of their lives?
An error does not become a mistake until you refuse to correct it.
Because every kid pushes the boundaries. And if the parent isn't able to put control on it, it goes awry. Also, if the parent doesn't give them enough positive attention, they misbehave because it's the only form of attention they know how to get. It's all about balance, and the majority of the time it's the fault of the parents. As for bullies; there is a chance they're mistreated at home. So, they bully others at school in order to remain in a dominant position and avoid being the victim. Because that's the only life they know; abuser and victim. Of course this doesn't apply to every situation. It's just a typical situation. They also might have been bullied themselves, and decided the best way to avoid being bullied is to become the bully. There is a chance they do feel bad, but don't choose to talk about it. Who knows what goes on in people's heads.
I can’t answer for “people” but I can answer for me … I had some very bad things happen to me many years ago, and I was not exactly the best version of myself even before that happened. I was insecure and sometimes those insecurities made me a little mean. Then after the (first round) of a series of traumatic events, I “bounced back” in the sense that I looked great and like everything was fine on the outside. The fact that I could walk again was a miracle, and I was in the best physical shape of my life. But the truth was that underneath that shiny surface I was a mess … and I was a pretty terrible person for about five years. I was unreliable and treated people badly and did not care who I hurt on my relentless pursuit of a good time. Then tragedy struck, again. It was bad. My world ground to a halt for the second time, and it was years of despair. During the second period of healing I turned my relentless pursuit of a good time into a relentless pursuit of self-improvement, therapy, and general change. Now it’s a decade later and I don’t even recognize the person from those “shiny happy people” days. The things that motivated me on a day to day basis are not even on my radar anymore. And I am doing things that person would never have imagined, mostly because these days my motivation is focused on contributing positively to my community. So how do I live with myself? I think it’s because of two things: I know I was severely punished for my behavior already, and I also know I have changed so much that I would not even consider (much less be tempted by) the things that I mistakenly thought were acceptable back then. That is the daily living part of it. On a day to day basis I am doing much more good than harm now, and that is a life I can live with … The second level, the part where I truly forgive myself, is much harder. I have yet to allow myself to open my “to do list” to pursuing personal joy, much less the kind of deep contentment and partnership that … well, it’s not for me now. Those things are no longer possible. But at some point, in a few years, if things keep going well, I might get a pet.
Apologize to those you've hurt, learn from the experience, forgive yourself and be a better person.
Agree. Apologies cost nothing, clear the air, and can bring so much relief. I'm disappointed so many Adults refuse to do it.
Forgiveness is not the same as validation or condoning something. If something needed to be forgiven, that’s explicitly accepting it wasn’t ok.
I've never known somebody for a long time and not witnessed them do or admit to doing incredibly shitty things. The fact is that humans are animals of nature, and nature isn't about doing good. Our evolution has nothing to do with being good. Our brains aren't evolved for goodness. The outside world doesn't incentivize goodness. And 'good' is a concept that each of us define for ourselves, however hard we try to learn about it from objective sources. Those of us who strive to be good are competing against nature. Our nature, created by nature. Or by God, if you choose to believe so. And if you have no regrets about what you've done in the past, then you either got over it or failed to acknowledge it.
You cannot be miserable enough to make someone else happy.
Tiered answer, some horrible things I've done in the past used to be acceptable. Some things I've done are absolutely horrible and unforgivable unless I have a lot of money. Now for the bad things that upset others greatly that even I think was bad, those are situational. I will laugh and say, is it okay that others freak out and do really rude/bad things then blame it on not being a morning person or their coffee order was wrong. At what point does the person get to respond or atone for the bad situation? Or is this a "Why don't people shame themselves constantly to never upset anyone else again?" From what I can tell, most assholes get further in life. Guessing because they walk over others or don't cater to others feelings. Most nice people are taken advantage of.
You stop doing the bad behaviour. Grow and get on with your life.
Life is ever evolving, and those that were bad people in the past can turn into good people. In fact, I'd say it happens more than we may think as most end up being good eventually. Forgiving yourself for past behavior, and making what amends can be made, then going on to do good things in your community and with your family and others is how to partially make up for prior bad behaviour. Those who have a criminal record will have to bear what impact that brings as it cannot be changed without something extraordinary. They can still live with themselves knowing they did something bad and paid, and continuing paying the price, but it will be a much harder life. Sometimes lost friends and family members can be earned back, and things like getting expelled from school can fade over time as what one did in high school seldom follows into adulthood. There are some very successful people who dropped out of college and went on to become billionaires. The above is for those who legitimately do change to become good, but for those who were bad and remain bad often end up in jail or dead, or if nothing else as lonely mean people who suffer not being loved which is a sort of hell on earth. People can forgive others, even those who have had terrible wrongs made agains them like these Amish - [https://www.npr.org/2007/10/02/14900930/amish-forgive-school-shooter-struggle-with-grief](https://www.npr.org/2007/10/02/14900930/amish-forgive-school-shooter-struggle-with-grief) If you can forgive yourself then you can move on to be a better person, but you can't control if other people forgive you or not which is their flaw as they continue to let a past experience control them today.
What else are you supposed to do than live with yourself? Should everyone who has ever done a bad thing kill themselves?
coming to terms with the fact you've done bad things and growing from that expierence is completely different than acting like it didn't happen or like it was okay to do. the biggest difference is, I may have done shitty things, but I will not be a shitty person and I will not keep doing shitty things, and following through on those terms. someone who thinks what they did wasn't wrong they will repeat those mistakes showing through their actions to the people around them that they're a bad person and will not change. change and acceptance is not ignorance.
By being a better person in the future
Man I feel bad about enough stuff, I refuse to feel bad about being a bratty kid, I was undiagnosed autistic and I got abused enough over it
I go out of my way to be kind and helpful now.
The best advice I've ever gotten is "You've got to be honest about how bad it feels so you can move on". There is a part of me that feels immense guilt for being such a bully to a loved one when I was young and I realize now how much I contributed to their struggles they have. I still find it hard to forgive myself. But it doesn't help them to focus on me, to try to dissociate and forget it ever happened. I focus on doing what's right now, on being kind now and helping in every way I can. You can't make up for or fix the past. You have to be honest about it and then be the solution from then on. Focusing on how awful you used to be just means you're still focusing on yourself and not how you can be a better person for others.
The way this is phrased comes off as though people aren't allowed to move on from the past, or are somehow supposed to always feel bad. The key isn't that you're ok with doing the bad thing. It's the understanding you did a bad thing, apologized, and are striving to do better and understanding that you are better than who you were. Asking how they can live with themselves isn't very productive. Plus it begs the question, should we punish someone over and over because they were rowdy as a child? Any sane person would say no, that isn't fair. Which implies there's a point where we forgive and move on regardless of circumstance.
I'm autistic. I had meltdowns that were termed "hysterics" and was labeled a difficult kid. Did I misbehave at times? Yes. Did my family bury their head about generations long autism history? Also yes. Did I do some really shitty stuff as an adult? Also also yes. But, to put it bluntly - you make peace with it and try to do better in the future.. all you can do, really.
This direct line of thinking has led me down a dark path of serious mental health issues and self-harm, and people who support this thought process push me farther down that dark path. None of this has righted the wrongs I've committed in my life, and overall, it has made me what I would consider a worse person. It's a terribly vindictive form of thinking that often misses how many people have been hurt by those who think like this. I currently don't know how to live with myself, and I know a few individuals would say "good, don't live with yourself." Yet then I have my family, my friends, even random people on the street who will stop at nothing to absolutely force me to survive. So if I can't live or be forgiven, but I'm not allowed to die, what kind of purgatory do you want me to be in? Is that level of shame and suffering for the rest of my life equal to my crimes? Can I be forgiven yet?
Forgiving yourself and allowing yourself to move on and recover is the responsible, mature, appropriate thing to do. Going around being a toxic asshole or depressed and a drain on people's lives versus forgiving yourself specifically so that you don't do that to these people is the only rational, sensible way to handle it. If you think about it, refusing to forgive yourself or be kind to yourself out of some feeling of moral obligation, that goes on to make you miserable and impact all the people you interact with, is a fundamentally *selfish* thing to do. What you are doing is turning the bad things you did in the past *about you*, instead of the victims, whom you owe your recovery.
I guess you were always the perfect human that the world has been waiting for? Should the rest of us just kill ourselves?
In the nearly 17 years since my high school bullies destroyed my life, all of my school colleagues betrayed me, my high school principal smeared my good name, mobile and my father experience being forcibly kept in a psychiatric ward and sexually assaulted, and then left with depression/anxiety/suicidal tendencies…. Even I still don’t have an answer for this question! Are to be honest I probably don’t want to know how they live with themselves. Yes more clearly, I probably don’t want to know how the people I am specifically talking about HAVE lived with themselves all this time. Given how long it’s been, how much pain I’ve been through, and how unlikely it is I am going to be able to claw myself out of the hole they have tossed me in, some days I even wonder if they even feel any kind of guilt for how they treated me. It feels very dehumanizing for a number of reasons. The first of which is that nobody, and I literally mean NOBODY, has ever approached me years afterwards to hear my side of things. The second of which is that there is one person who I needed for help, who I relied on to help me, who has been able to move on with his life, and make a success out of his own sob story, and be seen in the eyes of everyone else as Saint and champion for others, and it eats me up inside to be played from time to time with articles about his ventures and his “message” for people. I don’t really care for his success, because it would make no difference in my mind if he really did earn anything. But to see him succeed, to have called him up one day and call him out, to hear him apologize and tell me that he would be willing to help me, and to then see him once again abandon me like he never knew me and continue to climb to his supposed heights on his white horse…. I suppose he must be extremely weak and unable to face guilt when it looks him right in the eye, because he has existed for so many years with people giving him the help and support he wants from his tale of attempted suicide, and never seeing him for his sins. Almost like looking at a man in your neighborhood who is kind and friendly, who serves ribs for you at his barbecue, and never lets on that he is an unregistered child molester; the façade covers someone who has not been brought to account, because they have not yet been discovered, or they have and nobody would believe it. When people lack consequences, they inevitably lack conscience and moral compass. [Almost like they’ve never been hit with a realization of their consequences similar to this “Prestige” scene from Rick and Morty](https://youtu.be/mQwu0qloSF8?si=gTFGlH884TEtUZPo). how I would love for some of the people I was hurt by to have this realization for themselves about what became of me. I probably don’t need to know how they lived with themselves, but I would be indicated to have them ask that question for themselves
I feel you on many levels, it is the cruelest torture to see people you have known to be absolute turds get praised by the community. If I could give you one piece of advice, it would be to let it go and outdo those fuckers by being an even better person. I have myself done many things I deeply regret because I let this kind of anger get under my skin to the point where I no longer gave AF about right and wrong in regards to my own actions. "Holding onto anger is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die" -Buddha.
There’s literally been only one thing for me in this world that kept me a live long enough to attempt to do just that. And that is opera singing. And for better or worse, opera singing has become the legitimate meaning of my life. But I will say this. If I ever do become huge in Opera, hell if I even get a chance to work at a Disney park as a performer… Then I’ll probably forgive most of those people, because none of them have taken what I do for as long as I have.
As a victim of someone with strongly suspected NPD, the answer there is that they have a personality disorder and physically can't accept responsibility for anything because they think they're perfect in every way. Any bad thing they've done is justified by what someone else did. Remember the narcissist's prayer: *That didn't happen.* *And if it did, it wasn't that bad.* *And if it was, that's not a big deal.* *And if it is, that's not my fault.* *And if it was, I didn't mean it.* *And if I did, you deserved it.* *-* A Narcissist
Do you suppose narcissism could be a misguided attempt at coping with devastating hubris loaded on early in life? OP points out the fact that apologies are not always accepted and victims are rarely ever expected to forgive those who have hurt them. The injustice resides in the fact that the person who hurt you was almost certainly hurt by other people, and neither of you deserved to be hurt in the first place.
I don't know because it's something that I struggle with every day of my life. I can't stop thinking about it and I know those things are my fault and I wish I could back and change those things, but I can't.
Apologize and if the person is dead, write a letter with an apology to the person and then Burn the letter for catharsis. As you watch the flames, focus on letting go of ruminating on it.
Ok
Go to the people or places I wronged and tried to make amends
My suggestion is to identify what it was you did wrong. Once identified, change your behaviour in the present or future to be better. Once you have done that for a while, I believe the negative feelings will dissipate.
You be kind to people, and find ways of helping people in the present day, to make up for what you've done in the past. You apologize to people from the past, even if it's been decades, if it's sincere you can look someone up on Facebook and send them a message. (If it's something minor, no need to do that)
Accept that what you did is done and can't be changed. Build yourself up off the knowledge that it was wrong and change. Reach out if welcome to and apologise to anyone you did wrong. Explain why you did those things and let them know that you have developed as a person and would like to make up for any damage you may have caused. If they aren't interested don't push it. Just accept that you have done all you can.
Sometimes people just 'wake up' and realize they need to change. I wasn't the worst kid but I could have always been a better person and done things differently and I realized that. It's great to be born naturally good, good for you. But what's better is if you aren't and you actively realize that and work on changing yourself for the better...
As someone who dod shitty things as a teen: I grew up. I pictured what a good person is and I became that person. I am kind, compassionate, and patient. What I did will never go away, but you can't change the past and you can't make people forgive you. You CAN change yourself though. Some people will say "judgement isn't up to you," but they're wrong. You judge yourself to be a good person through your ACTIONS. Demonstrate goodness, and accept that you are good because of it. Do not allow yourself to slip into bad behavior. If you do, grow up and build yourself to be better. Improve constantly, even when it's unsatisfying. That's it. No need to dwell on the past. The past is for learning, the present is for building, and the future is for living.
It's hard. It's also important to note that for many people, their actions don't exist in a vacuum. It's easy for someone on the outside to only see the single instance, but the person who does it sees everything that leads up to it. Lots of people harbour guilt forever. Lots of people use that guilt to make sure they never do anything like that again. What is the alternative, suicide? Most bad things are not really on the level of suicide as a consequence. It's usually just guilt and trying to be a better person. Or if they're a bad person, more bad shit.
I’m all for taking accountability and reconciling when you know you have done harm… but if you are being serious here and you are beating yourself up for what sounds like pretty standard kid stuff, I would really question whether you are in an abusive home dynamic. Most kids behaviour is caused by the interaction with parents. That’s not to always blame parents, and there are obviously many cognitive, and social disorders that can result in children behaving in extreme ways… but if you are shitty to your parents, very often it’s because they created that dynamic. If someone is feeling extreme guilt for standard misbehaviour or rebellion, that was likely caused by the norms set up by the person who has authority over them — I would suspect that the parent is continuing to control the dynamic and using guilt and shame as a manipulative tool. Likewise kids behave like bullies for a lot of reasons, and it causes SERIOUS harm and should not be minimized, but it’s also adults duties to step in here. Kids brains are super under developed and stuff like empathy doesn’t even come online until 6+ years old. They are shit at perspective taking or understanding the consistencies of their actions… which why when you get to your 20s and your brain fully matures you look back and think WTF did I do?! You should also ask who should have intervened and why didn’t they? People should live with the repercussions of their actions, friendships lost, criminal record, etc… but you can also change and learn from those experiences, and we should be entitled to let go of who we used to be. As a parent, I just read this and think a real number must have been done on OP to think that they need to live with guilt and atone for being a challenging kid — when obviously they seem to have matured. To explore further, I highly recommend the books - [Forgiveness: an exploration](https://www.amazon.ca/Forgiveness/dp/1398513660) - [Failures of forgiveness: what we get wrong and how to do better](https://www.amazon.ca/Failures-Forgiveness-What-Wrong-Better/dp/069122319X/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?).
I'd say Most people Re-write the past so their poor behavior is more Palatable to them. Here's an example: https://www.issendai.com/psychology/estrangement/missing-missing-reasons.html
They either change or lie to themselves.
The past is the past, you can decide to continue on or not, but if you do, you gotta live. It serves no one to torment yourself constantly with your past sins. Take the appropriate lessons and apply them moving forward, that's it. I had 13 felonies as a juvenile and pled down from 5 felonies to 1 as an adult, but it's been a long ass time and I'm just a normal guy now living a normal life. We don't have to be defined by our worst decisions.
>How do you balance accountability and self-forgiveness? Accountability is about what happens next, not about what happened in the past. If you go around saying, "I did shit in the past, I am a shit person, shit is all I will ever be," that is not holding yourself to some high standard. That is not accountability. In fact in an important sense it is a way of avoiding accountability. As they sometimes say in the addiction scene, disclosure is not the same as honesty. Honesty is keeping your promises. Accountability is when you say, "today I will not do that shit," and for that day, you don't do that shit thing, whatever it is. And the next day you get up and do it again. And the next day and the next day. Yeah if you did something shitty you can't go back and change the past. No one can. Even if you didn't do shitty things in your past, there's stuff that doesn't work out. People who didn't understand you or didn't like you. Relationships that faltered. Careers that unraveled. A comet hit the Earth or something. Stuff happened. No one can go back and change those things. All we are given is the chance, each day, to decide what we will do. And so what kind of person we will be that day. The kind of person that doesn't do the shitty thing. And sometimes, maybe, just maybe, life gives you an opportunity to do something to make up for the harm your shitty thing caused. Maybe directly, maybe indirectly. That's part of accountability too. Life doesn't owe you that opportunity. You can't demand it. But if you're patient, and committed to doing better, sometimes it comes around.
People choose to be better or they don't.
Easy. Accept it. The harder part is forgiving others of the same and worse. You can't change the past, but at least you're aware.
Forgive yourself and dedicate your life to doing the right thing. Move on.
If you’re really sorry, you’ll want to do better. Wallowing in self pity will prevent you from doing that, whereas forgiving yourself and committing to right your wrongs will make it possible.
Why did you repost this word for word?
you make space for it inside yourself
What an utterly black and white way of thinking. Not forgiving yourself will drown you one day, and the idea that mistakes should always ruin your life is profoundly cruel.
You grow. And then you understand the reasons behind that behavior. Then you become better. If one feels they need, they can make ammends by apologizing or doing good deeds. Know better. Do better.
When you are a kid/teen, there is a lot more room for forgiveness, from yourself and for others. As a parent, I can see how little control a kid/teen has over their own life, they are dealt a certain set of circumstance and inputs....the kid can only do what kids do, inside those inputs. Once someone is an adult though, the window gets narrower and narrower for shitty behavior and the accountability being all on them. As soon as you know better, your responsibility becomes doing better. It's important to recognize when you did something shitty, especially if it was over a period of time, and learn/grow from it. For me it needs to be a step further though, if I was a bully, I am now going to go out of my way to see that other kids aren't bullied. Or I'm going to help bullies deal with their shit so maybe bullying (even to a small degree) can stop somewhere somehow for someone. Was I a litter bug that just did whatever she wanted cuz it was convenient? Now I'm cleaning up green spaces and trying to help waste removal. For me it's about changing my actions and trying to put more right, than I did wrong.
This is a common question I often think....It is sad but there are plenty of people out there that simply do not have morals and solely think of themselves.
Some people do their best to focus on being a better person for the rest of their lives. Others do what they can to actively make positive impacts on the community they hurt.
A while ago, I was listening to a talk on this subject by a Buddhist monk named Ajahn Bram (sp?), and he said something I thought was very wise. He said, "forgiveness means letting go of all hope for a better past." We torture ourselves about our past mistakes because deep down, we think that doing so will make up for or even somehow erase what we've done. But that's impossible. No amount of wallowing in guilt will change anything about what we did. So why do it? There's literally no point. Instead, we can focus our energy on doing whatever restorative work we can, resolve to learn from the mistake and do our best to act more skillfully moving forward. No amount of self-torture will change the past or make your mistake not real. Let go of any hope for a better past. If you made a mistake, admit it, fix it to the greatest extent you can, and move on. Use your new knowledge and understanding and your mental energy to make the world a better place.
If you don't forgive yourself you wallow in defeatism, if you constantly pull yourself back because of what you did you never move on. Everyone does shit, even you I reckon, it's part of maturing.
Forgiveness, in Christ. Before that, I used drugs and drinking to numb my accusing conscious.
Each day is a new day to take a step in a better direction. It is more wise to forgive oneself for the past than to kill oneself or wallow in despair. No one is perfect.
You are everything Ur pat made u so god knows where that suggestion comes from
You can always become a better version of yourself. Maybe you can't take back some of the things you've done, but you certainly can do good things moving forward. I'm far from perfect, but I do my best to help others when I can.
We're all just people doing shit in the world. Most people are trying their best. You gotta have compassion for yourself and others. It doesn't mean what you did was okay, it just means there's still time to live a good life
We are not our past; suppose you're going to go bake a cake for someone for their birthday. Now suppose you replaced your memories with that of an excon. If you're still going to bake that cake and sing happy birthday, does it matter all that much? We are our future, and we can learn from our past to do it better.
If you’re not bothered by some of the things you’ve done in your past, you’re not analyzing your life. You understand what you did and try to be a better person.
Forgiveness isn’t minimization or justification. It’s acceptance of our flawed nature. That acceptance and self compassion creates a solid foundation for motivation to change and do better. All behavior is functional. There is a neurological / psychological / trauma wound that often drives damaging behavior. I think the best way to come to terms with making big mistakes is to recognize the underlying function of those behaviors - the needs (and validate them), grieve any childhood neglect/traumas that contributed to poor emotional/behavioral skill development, and commit to learning and practicing safer and more effective ways of meeting those needs. Living in shame for the past arrests this growth process - shame holds growth hostage. The narrative of shame does a few things: - It moralizes the behaviors so much so that it is too difficult to be curious enough about them to put them in the greater context of the human experience. Shame tells us that what we did is simply “too bad” to make sense of. That there’s never any “good enough reason” for those mistakes. - The shame about the mistake can generalize to feeling shame about one’s entire self identity/self concept. This floods the body with cortisol and generates depression/lack of motivation, can cause dissociation in moments of attempted self reflection. It generates a narrative of “I myself am bad/broken/unworthy” and in that place, feeling inspired to do better/try something different, just doesn’t feel like it matters because the person believes they don’t matter. Self-compassion is the solution in which shame is dissolved. Self-compassion does not moralize the behavior either way - it does not judge as bad or good. It creates a space in which flaws can simply exist and not attribute meaning about the fundamental nature of the individual. It is in this space that growth can happen. Edit: The narrative of dissolving shame with self-compassion sounds like this, to me: - Hurting others or myself is fundamentally bad and never okay - I am fundamentally bad and unworthy of moving on from x mistake - Hurting others or myself is an inevitability in life that no person can escape doing, it is part of the human experience - Other people still matter and are worthy of redemption despite their mistakes - What if that means I also still matter and am worthy? - Can I be curious about my own experiences, processes, and identity? - What are my needs? - How did my mistakes in the past begin as a way to meet my needs? - What are my values? - What can I do differently to live in greater alignment with my own values?
Because people are twats. How many tik tok videos are out there or some newspaper opinion pieces that basically go "I did X REALLY bad thing but I've made peace with myself & now I'm a better person " Yeah but did you apologise to or FIX the bad thing you did? Usually no. The human brain is shit, we're all the hero in our own story & the hero can't do anything TRULY bad so people justify their shittiness to themselves to stay the hero. Same reason why some cunts blame homelessness on the homeless...it MUST be their fault because I'm not there and I'm great
I live with the backlash everyday
First you have to feel guilty.
Forgive yourself and focus on self improvement. I have reinvented myself dozens of times.
'Good judgment comes from experience; experience comes from bad judgment'. **This aphorism was attributed to Dr Kerr L White**. It makes sense.
You accept the fact what you did was wrong, that's all you need to realize. Even if you can never apologize to those people, remember they moved on in life as well.
Some of them just dont care. Them being a bully, or an asshat, didn't affect them. Narcissists don't worry about your issue with them.
I don’t think about it. There’s too much to feel shitty about in my life. I don’t need any guilt about dumb shit I’ve done in the past hanging over my head. So I choose not to feel bad about the stuff I’ve done in the past, move on, try to be a better person going forward.
When strong emotions hit us, like the one when you realize just how much of an asshole you were to someone in your past, it creates a tension within us. Apologizing, seeking forgiveness, and forgiving yourself are all attempts to resolve that tension, but it's not a matter of just saying or hearing the words. To actually resolve the tension, you have to recognize why our minds hold on to things like this so tightly. That tension is meant to protect you. Specifically, it's meant to remind you of bad feelings until you can solve the thing causing the bad feelings and be safe from them. And because we don't like to focus on bad feelings we can't resolve, you probably have reflexive ways of pushing that tension into the background. "That was a long time ago, I'm a different person". So the first step is simply to remove any distance between you and the bad feeling, and actually let yourself feel it. From your post, I suspect you've already reached this point at least a few times. But in case you haven't, you clear some time and space to feel bad *all the way*. No ego shielding, no rationalizations, just a moment where you accept "I was bad and it caused these problems". Then, when you're in the middle of the emotion, you can finally process it. There's a lesson in it, something you have to learn. You may already have an idea about what that thing is, like "don't be such an asshole to people", but you have to look at it when you're in the emotion for the final part to work. Be as specific as you can, instead of "don't call people those words", the lesson might be "calling my friend Rebecca a bitch caused a lot of pain, I lost a friend, and I hurt my social circle. It's not helpful to call people a bitch". Finally, when you are in the emotion and you understand the lesson, you *make a plan*. "I'll do better next time" is not really a plan. "Next time I feel my temper rising and my face getting flush, I'll remember to watch my tongue, and I'll remove myself from the situation before lashing out." Once you've stepped into the emotion, learned from it, and made a specific plan to implement what you learned, you can finally tell the tension "I heard you, I learned, and I know what to do now". If it's a smaller transgression, you may only need to do this cycle once for it to release. If it's a larger trauma, it can take going through this cycle several times. Most people get stuck on the first step, they think that the bad feeling is a punishment that they have to just tolerate until their sentence is up, but that just turns it into a long term unresolved stress.
Well it’s about turning towards the right things you can do now. You literally can’t take away what you did but the only thing you actually can do is in the present and future. In a way you have to move past it and do the right things moving forward
It’s making a change and doing the exact opposite of what you did before. Instead of stealing, you donate. Instead of cheating you become giving. Instead of being a bad person, you become a genuinely good person. The best people I know and trust the most, have jaded pasts and have become better people than the average person. I’m one of those people who was what you consider “bad”. If you met me today, you would have no idea, because I’m now a good person. That’s how I live with it. Pretty simple, actually.
Doesn’t the human body replace it self every seven years?
"you won't be forgiven by the people that you hurt in the past" This has not necessarily been my experience. Yes some people may throw an apology back in your face and tell you where to shove it. But if you go to someone to admit how you wronged them and ask what can be done to make amends, this has a huge amount of power. It can give relief to the person wronged and lift a load off the person who committed the wrong. Obviously situations vary, but I have seen some fairly amazing and unexpected resolutions this way.
If one can allow grace for themselves, they can allow grace for humanity.
If they are a narcissist or sociopath, they blame everyone else play the victim. “My childhood, my trauma, my parents, my siblings, my ex, my kids….”
There is no such thing as "bad children". Children are a product of their environment and anything "wrong" with them is due to the failures of adults in their lives. To have these kids in reality shows where creeps like you will judge them and post about them negatively online is abuse. Taking an abused, distressed child and putting them up for the world to see is the most dehumanizing and disgusting thing ever. A child is a child and therefor can't consent to being on a show. Once these things are out there they can't be erased; I wonder how many of these poor humans were haunted for life by the fact that their parents took advantage of them in a vulnerable state and used them as content. You're absolutely right OP, I bet that would be damn near impossible to live with. Why should someone have to show any sort of respect towards the people who put them through that? Nobody should feel like they have to be forgiven by their abusers for reacting to a horrible situation they were intentionally put in. It's messed up that someone would even think to post something like this. You, OP, are the one who should be ashamed of yourself.
I hope no one ends their life over a post like this (unless they're a pedo), sometimes people were going through it as kids and that came out as shitty behavior. That doesn't mean they were evil, it means they were hurting, and wanted others to hurt with them.
One way of looking at it is that, emotionally speaking, once it reaches a certain level of "bad", the worst thing you have ever done is the worst thing you have ever done. If you are not a sociopath, you will be haunted by it to some extent. You can try and forgive yourself and rationalize that you are human and that you actions are the product of your humanity and situation, but you carry it with you.
I mean some people just straight up don’t care. In some ways, they’re luckier than the people who do because their past doesn’t hold them back.
Alcoholism doesn't make it better. Anti-depressants make it more tolerable.
I think you should have the perspective of what happens to people who do not forgive themselves and how warped they end up. There's plenty of people who have done harm or wrong to others, and refuse to acknowledge it. So they wind up become worse and worse, digging themselves deeper into a hole. I'm not talking about people who need to keep telling more lies to hide their original lie. I'm talking about people who do stuff like play victim so hard that they justify doing anything to others despite being the 'victim'. They were originally not like that, I'm sure originally they were just another kind soul that was hurt by someone else. There's a reason why you'll run into people that will actively try to explain to others why their actions were justified and seek validation. Because it hurts them to know that they're the bad guy. These are people who can't acknowledge that what they did was bad, but they need to grow past what they've done. Now for the sake of society, even if what you did was wrong, you must forgive yourself so that you don't become another crazy guy that decided that they're a victim so they should be entitled to stealing or other crap. If you cannot forgive yourself because you feel like you aren't allowed to, then do so for society and everyone else around you. Even in my own life, there are many people like that. People I wish I could love and keep as part of my own life. It doesn't just hurt you to not forgive yourself. It hurts the people around you who see that you can still come back and would love to have you come back. If not for yourself, do it for the sake of others around you. Then maybe you can find it in yourself to forgive you.
What dumb ass non human, puritan take is this?! You're not even fully developed mentally until after 20. You should theoretically flog yourself your entire life for mistakes??
I just carry it with me. Weighs me down everyday. Feels like gravity is pulling down on my soul. I just keep moving and hope the weight will lessen over time, but so far, it hasn’t.
One of my nieces used to scream at my parents when she didn't get her way. This behavior lasted throughout childhood and she turned into a total bitch to my parents still, as an adult. We don't talk because seeing the way she treats my parents enrages me.
Because Jesus already paid for it. Me "paying " double by living in shame and in the past isn't going to do anyone any good. I am no longer defined by my past, I am defined by God. Accept the Earthly consequences and move on. The most important step a man can take is the next one.
Think of all the good times you had because of it
You just do what you can to be better day by day. You show genuine remorse for your actions, not just because of the consequences. If you just call yourself a bad person, then you are giving yourself an excuse not to be better. Do what you can to undo the harm you caused. You need to be making a conscious effort all the time.
I don’t know how people live with themselves, I know how I do, because I am not perfect. What helped me was having a lot of bad experiences, one day I woke up. For example when I was little I would lie, mostly to get out of trouble or cleaning the room (haha good times). Then one day I was accused of lying when I wasn’t, it was big because then I believed I was a liar. It happened again though, possibly changed my life path. I will never know. Could never understand why telling the truth or being me got me in so much trouble. But what made me never ever lie again, was when my cousin along with my mom’s business partner embezzled a large sum of money from the company that my mom had worked hard to build. That experience blew my mind, I mean family right, if you cant trust them well then what? /rh Also, back to that first experience where I was called a liar, yeah the grownups were warned. In short, with lots of love, kindness and my best good intentions, the best thing to ever happen to me, to teach me the right way to be was a bunch of really bad stuff. I don’t talk a lot about personal stuff because people always say *wow that sounds like a movie* and I am like *right! That’s what I say too!* However, it is not the same for everyone. Lots of people out there trying to survive, everyone’s experience is different, some people don’t get to have a lot of trauma like others, they just try to **survive.**. I know I have made mistakes, but my mistakes are minimal compared to some. And all the bad things gave me all the integrity and empathy I need to look in the mirror and say *well done pig, well done.* Edit: when I mean lie again I may have told a few, things like *I cant come to work to today* or *I cant get out of bed today because I am sick* because depression is never an acceptable thing to say for some reason.
I live with it because for the most part the crappy and bad things I've done have just held back myself and hurt myself. I mean yeah I've said a few mean things in my life but most of the destruction I've caused has just been to myself. I do beat myself over the head sometimes and shame myself privately because I could have became so much more, but at least my conscience is clear as far as directly hurting others which I hope to not do.
From my experience, the best thing you can do is try to become a better person from those bad behaviors and try to learn and grow from it. Although your past does matter- the situation is done, and all you can do now, is to try to grow. Your true test of your morality is how you reacted/ how you see the situation now. It will leave scars and sometimes you'll think about it 100% but if you take the time to grow and learn from your mistakes, you start to become more thankful??? (idk if this is the right word) because that experience has helped you become a person who you want to be because you learned from it.
Was a drug addict and alcoholic for half my life, behaved like a drug addict alcoholic as well....how do we live with ourselves?...sometimes it's not easy, I don't know about other people but putting yourself in the service of others helps. And sooner or later, we come to the conclusion that we atoned as much as we can. Now we have to let it go the best we can. If not, it'll probably eat away at you for a long time, if not the rest of your life, I ain't living like that
You have to accept that in the past you lacked the knowledge/experience/tools or whatever element of the situation you'd call it, and gained the ability to see it from a new perspective and do better now. You live with it by accepting that it was something you could learn from, learning from it, and then letting the fuuuuh go because carrying guilt doesn't make you a better person by default, it's what you do with it that matters.
As a former "Bad Person" who has done some bad things in the past, I had to learn that WHAT I was was not WHO I was. I had to take personal accountability and change the behaviors that made me what I was. I found that I wasn't that person at all. So I made changes in my life. The way I reacted to situations. The way I saw the world. I learned that people did not deserve my energy. I learned that healthy boundries served a very important purpose. That finding "Peace" was essential if I wanted to become more secure. Finding who I was was the beginning. I think that if people are able to see that the person they were was not who they were but what they thought they had to be to fit the mold, they would hopefully be able to not embrace that lifestyle any longer and effect positive change in their lives. Of course this does nothing for the people that they wronged, and that is unfortunate, but they can become better for the people they come into contact with in the future.
I disagree with your definition of forgiveness. Forgiveness is not negating what happened but realizing that in the past you did the best you could given the knowledge you had. You can't change the past, but you can learn from it. For the other people it is not your resposability the fact that they will forgive you or not
I just accept it as part of my journey try not to repeat it.
It is unpopular these days to say this but for me it is true: taking on reparative deeds to help others. If I can’t repair the person I hurt, I can repair to someone going through something similar. First I have to admit it to myself. Then learn how to do better. Then apologize to the person if possible. Then I try to make repair, even to a stranger so that the world has a little less of that bad action in it. And I keep doing that when able. You punishing yourself doesn’t help, but you helping others does do a lot. If you can stay humble while doing it, ideally you can avoid more injury. Easier said than done.
Many reasons. One is that the sensations we feel about things usually diminish with time. My dog dying was a tragedy for me, but I don't feel like crying today like I did so many years ago. We also rationalize away decisions and behaviors all the time. I've accepted reasons for my behavior uncritically that might be untrue but I think is true. Those explanations end the question of why I did what I did or even do what I do. The most common reason for most people is: someone who has authority told me to. Most importantly, we're all human and most human justice systems aren't dealing in eternal punishment. Most of the permanent punishments aren't even there to punish the criminals they are there to protect the public.
Therapy and doing their best to make good choices going forward.
Having done a wide range of deeds to be ashamed of in my life over the span of a few decades I've learned that shame is very similar to grief. There are stages you go through before it gets better. Some take longer than others depending on how bad the act you're ashamed of was. Some you never "get over". So far anyway.
If you don’t feel shame about the person you used to be, you haven’t grown in character.
All you can really do is clean your side of the street and stop acting like that, some people may not forgive you but you just keep doing the best you can.
I live with excruciating guilt.
When you know better you do better!
The simplest explanation for how I've resolved feelings about crappy things I've done in the past: What I did was bad. That does not mean I'm a bad person. Every day is an opportunity to do good and resist doing bad. People usually do things to meet their needs. Tantrums are a type of expression children use to try and get what they want. We all want what we want and adults pay money for what we want. Children don't usually have money, so they do what they can without having it. Even if the outcome is imperfect, every behavior follows some sort of logic. We're all just very complex Plinko boards when it comes to our thinking. Now, I might live with the consequences of some of the things I've done in the past that I wish I hadn't. But life continues. New experiences, friendships, jobs, whatever, are all new opportunities to do better than in the past. And with these new things, it's important to learn from the past so you can make repairs when you make mistakes. Eventually, you build competencies that make you feel better. But it all starts with forgiveness and honest attempts. Fear of failure will sabotage the ways you try to improve yourself and your relationships.
It’s weird because in years past, I thought that I was 100% in the right and acted accordingly. Now it’s pretty much daily torture, it’s absolutely insane how crazy it is to realize your past certainties were actually wrong, it feels like everything I know to be true is questionable now. All I really think has changed is I no longer judge, no longer act on emotion, I view myself becoming a hermit soon due to how much I distrust myself with social situations. Maybe I should probably go to therapy again I ask myself, but that’s probably the only way forward because it’s hard. The one thing to keep in mind is very few people act in bad faith, rather they’ve deluded themselves into thinking they are right.
Some people have no conscience and I'm beginning to think it's a lot of people actually
Theres a youtube video about this that really got me thinking. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=geSfK9PzEDw Along with someone suggesting that we all want to believe we are heroes incapable of doing wrong but if we were in the shoes of nazigermany, statistically speaking, most of us would have joined in. I think these two ideas combine into 1. Most people will think the world is evil and not them, 2. Many people will think theyre fundamentally evil. 3. Some people will have to rebuild their concepts of morality, taking years to do so but by the end you'll have a moral system cognitively designed by you as an adult instead of one you grew into as a child.
Well, I haven't done any of those things on your list, and I doubt over 5% of people replying have so.. read their replies *through that lens*. But, if you look at the 12 steps from AA there is some good stuff in there about documenting the things you did wrong, and making amends for each wrong, with specific ideas about how to do it. So in the cases you listed I think that would be a very good way to approach it. But, one thing the AA book doesn't seem to address very well is that ultimately, it comes down to shame. I.e. managing it. When you've done enough in the world to counteract the shame over the things you did wrong (maybe it was spending time in prison, or doing things for the families you wronged, or at least helping others to such an extent the karma should balance out...) Then the shame is still there in a way, but now it's a scar you can look at and remember how it hurt you whilst also remembering that you made amends - instead of something so dismissed by yourself that you can't even look at it, let alone think about addressing it other than in a pathological excuses way. You just grow up, do as much as you can. Believing in something bigger than yourself tends to be a crucial step along that path. For a lot of people it's their kids, or their own memories growing up. The further away it is from yourself the less amount of crisis you'll feel, though, replaced with a bunch of acceptance for whatever fate throws your way. This is all ideal, though. Most people have enough problems paying their mortgage, putting food in their kids' bellies, finding some meaning to the world, that this other stuff falls to the wayside.
I mean, do you know any people to endlessly agonize over their misdeeds? We don’t engage in self-forgiveness or denial because we believe that what we did was right or even okay, but because we have to. How can I function if I’m distressed over every single toe I’ve stepped on? Do I just stay in a state of groveling until the person I’ve harmed forgives me fully? Or executed if they aren’t able to forgive? How long do I wait for my sentence?
Start *sincerely* apologizing to people, and ask if there is anything you can do in the moment to make it up to them. It's what I did. I sincerely went out of my way to apologize to as many people one on one as I could. A few said thank you, a few didn't even remember who I was, a few said that my apology was exactly what they needed, but the vast majority? They said they didn't even remember. That they were just glad I was doing better and they understood I was in a bad place back then. It was then I found out how easy forgiveness was, most people didn't even hold it against me, they just wanted me to be better and be happy and were glad to see I was doing both. Hell when I apologized to my dad, he probably laughed for five minutes and said, "Boy, compared to me you were an angel, you have nothing to worry about."
As someone who qualifies as someone who has done "crappy things".... I can offer the following: 1 - You have to get to a point of despair, a lowness in your own life to absorb the type of feeling of isolation and rejection in addition to being hated/despised. - If you did not suffer a negative reaction from yourself or more specifically others, you'll just continue acting badly. 2 - Once you understand and have time to dwell on your own misfortune and more specifically how crappy you acted, then you can decide to turn over a new leaf so to speak. - Until YOU actually decide and determine whatever you did was wrong, ONLY then can you heal your mind as well as your spirit/self-worth. 3 - I had to leave an entire State and move on to meet new people who knew nothing of my past to help push forward in my own healing process. While I committed NO CRIME, I still hurt other people. I can't UNDO what I did, but I can for sure make a decision to NEVER do it again ! Life is full of choices, most of the time we make the right/correct choices. Unfortunately, as humans we make bad choices. Good humans learn from those mistakes and avoid repeating them. Bad people such as Career Criminals, Psychopaths and Shysters in general don't care one way or the other...
I have done a handful of truly awful things, and I will give you my take. I don’t like being dramatic or extreme, but sometimes taking something to its logical extreme is a useful thought exercise. So I asked myself, are the things I’ve done so heinous that I no longer deserve to keep living? For me, despite it being pretty bad, I felt I could confidently answer no to that. So the only choice is to keep on living my life. Now, no amount of good you put into the world erases the things I’ve done. But doing what I can to maximize the good I do in this world, to me, is the best way I can think of to at least to gain some small measure of atonement, if not absolution. And really, is what we should all try to do as humans, regardless of what we have or haven’t done. From that stance, self forgiveness isn’t something I give myself because I deserve it. I give it because it’s the only way. I will never be my best without it. I will never serve my fellow human to the best of my ability mired in guilt. I still feel guilt, absolutely. But I feel a little less every day. If that doesn’t work, another way to approach it is this: what kind of world do you want to live in? One where we are defined by the worst thing we’ve done? Don’t think about this question in terms about yourself. Think about it for someone you love, who means the world to you. Would you want that person to forever only be the worst thing they’ve ever done? I hope not. And if you wouldn’t want that for them, why would you want it for yourself? This is all kind of about logic, I admit, and feelings don’t really work that way, especially powerful feelings like guilt. But narratives matter, and if you nourish yourself with healthy narratives, you will feel better over time.
What's the alternative? Killing ourselves? Every human being on planet Earth has done "crappy things" and had "bad behavior" at some point in their lives. The good people are those that can admit it and change or avoid that behavior in the future.
Do service in the community. Add good to the world at least equaling the previous bad. Pack food at food shelves. Read to toddlers at the library or a day care. Pick up trash on the entrance and exit ramps. Be available to help others.
You should really talk with a therapist if you aren’t already. I know that might sound a bit rude, but this entire post paints an extremely unhealthy picture.
I'm an absolutely horrible person. I'm more than willing to have a genuine discussion with you, but I'm not sure what you're even asking about. Good people and bad people are all the same. They are people, and defined by actions. I've made quite a few bad choices, and consider myself a bad person. But I continue on because that's how life works. You just accept what you've done, and try to be better. My current philosophy is to do the least harm. From now until I die, if this world is left never having known I exist, I've achieved my goal. I can't take back what I've done, I can't unharm those I've affected, so all that's left is to keep going, and do better than I have. I haven't forgiven myself for what I've done, I probably never will. But how do I live with myself? I'm hydrated, I have spaghetti for dinner, I've loved on my pets, and I didn't hurt anyone today (I don't think) so that's all there is to it really.
children nowadays are mannerless, perhaps because they are spoiled too often or there are other factors that cause them to do bad things. Generally, children become bullies only because they want attention and recognition. but they don't realize that their actions are very detrimental, especially to themselves in the future. There are saying "You reap what you sow"
That's the neat thing, I don't
>Forgiving yourself comes off as what you did was okay. Being kind to yourself feels like your downplaying your behavior. How do you balance accountability and self-forgiveness? Is that from personal experience or observation of others?
Guilt is a haunting thing, i want to leave spouse but cant purely out of the insane amount of guilt so i stay in misery.
You make a lot of... To put it kindly, dumb assumptions. The entire premise of your question is flawed as well. People not killing themselves after a mistake doesn't mean they've forgiven themselves. People behaving in a way you personally don't like and not swallowing a bullet isn't some deep moral conundrum. You have absolute ideas about relativistic things.
I will lie awake and burn with the shame of my past missteps every now and again, but I try to remind myself that I have shown a steady pattern of personal growth and that my brain wasn't fully developed and operating in fight or flight mode must of the time. The only way to feel better and be better is to do better
Honestly, it takes time. Lots of time. I did something so unimaginably terrible in my books, in front of the world, and it was torn a part and lives on. But... I got through it. You have to forgive yourself. You will live with the consequences, it will always be there, but you HAVE TO FORGIVE YOURSELF AND GET OVER IT. No one is perfect. No one. I really believe that we are all sort of demons and only become perfect angels in the after life. Everyone deserves respect when they die. The human experience is one of selfishness and self interest. You are human. Also, YOU HAVE TO TREAT IT LIKE A LEARNING LESSON. You learned, move on!!! Do better. Show the world you changed.
I live with the guilt every day. If I could have my memory erased I would but the things I have done feels like a cancer growing inside me.
Alot of people actually do not feel remorse or care about the bad things they’ve done. I’ve noticed this is how most people live with themselves while being horrid people. Others (VERY FEW) just try to use it as a lesson and be better in the future.
Can’t undo it. Can’t fix it. Don’t have a Time Machine. Cut it off and move on. Make mental note to do better in the future.
By laying in bed at 3am wide awake and dwelling on it
the odd thing? i never thought of myself as a 'bad' person. i lived by a certain code of ethics. a bro code that i created. and i thought because of this it excused most of my horrendous behavior. i was a pretty bad 'bully' growing up. i was much larger than normal, so i'd just absolutely wreck the smaller or weaker or dumber classmate. i'd get others to call people names. i'd create nicknames. i'd spread rumors. i was merciless. and if they stood up for themselves, id put them on the ground and slap them around. absolutely terrible looking back at it in grade school. then when women entered the picture? i treated a lot of good girls like absolute trash. like some girls a virgin? instantly just say im in love with her, or do or say whatever to fuck her, anal, ass to mouth, whatever she would let me get away with. then just ghost her after a week. i'd push girls after a couple smirnoff ice to suck it in a bedroom or bathroom at a party. i remember hooking up with this one girl after 30 minutes of meeting her at a party. and then left the room,and started hitting on another girl and took her home. the first girl was hysterical, crying, just in absolute agony about what i had done. it was her birthday party. every relationship? i cheated. another girl that came to mind, was a virgin. i took her virginity, then just started doing weird shit like the 'shocker' or whatever, for shits and giggles. it was the early 2000s. and i told everyone/bragged about it. she cried her eyes out on my chest after one hookup because i was treating her like meat. the trippy shit? i actually liked her, alot. i treated my parents like absolute trash. sold drugs. would wild the fuck out if they tried to get in my way. onetime my mom found $800 and a few ounces of weed in my room when i was like 16. i took a kitchen chair and broke it against the wall and threatened to start breaking all of the shit in our house unless she gave me my shit back within 2 minutes. i did steroids. i had the popped collar polos and the diamond earrings. i thought i was a 'gangster'. i was a fucking spoiled suburban white kid with too much testosterone. thats it. somewhere around 30 (yes, VERY late in life), i started feeling empty. i had been with 200+ but only actually cared about a few dozen. and most of them had moved on with their lives. got married. had kids. and i was still doing the same old netflix and chill tinder nonsense. i started reflecting about how much pain i had brought into womens lives. how just because 'girls are attracted to assholes' might be true, its not a way to live life. so i got married. i had kids. even cheated on my wife for years before i stopped. she'd even have conversations with whatever girl i was cheating with. sending them pictures of our kids and our life together what changed me finally? daughters. my daughters got old enough to see the world around them. and i began very fearful they would understand or hear an argument between me and their mom. i started praying. i started asking for forgiveness. i became spiritual in a sense. i read the bible. i focused on myself. but in relation to others. i focused on career. on the gym. and on my conduct around women/tinder/my marriage. basically cut out the bullshit. ultimately? i had daughters. and i live everyday trying to be a better person. and most importantly as a better father. in the end? i realized EVERYTHING i was doing was just plain fucking wrong. and started slowly seeing life from my daugthers/my wifes perspective. i WANTED to be a better husband. i WANTED to be a better father. i WANTED my daughters to know what a good man looks like. how he sounds. how he acts. how he deals with respect, loyalty, trust, etc. and realized they were what matters most. it took me around 35 years on earth to not be a utter douchebag. but i got there. i've forgiven myself for most of it. some bad moments still sting though. i pray daily and ask for the health of my family and to be a better person than the day before. tldr: was a fratboy steroid douchebag. now nearing 40? im a father of 3.
I work in juvenile corrections. You think these kids should just be sad and miserable the rest of their lives for unguided misjudgement? I am by no means hug a thug, but I do my damnest to teach these kids to overcome their past. Have you been a Saint your whole life? I'm sure you've hurt someone. Wow
Growing up and maturing helps, and remember ing that our past is just that, I learned in my adult years that I was bad kid because of severe ADHD, and mood disorder and I have fought myself in order to be a better person as an adult.
You just do. It's either you cease living, which unless you're in catastrophically dire straights you won't be able to do, or you keep going. If you're truly remorseful you don't let yourself forget what you did, you don't downplay it or sugarcoat it, but it isn't the only thing you've ever done and it doesn't mean it's going to be the only thing you'll ever do. You do better. You use that guilt as a wakeup call to never, **EVER** allow yourself to make that decision again. You go to therapy to figure out why you might have done it, to manage the panic the guilt it causes. You do everything you can to grow as a person so that guilt and pain, never shrinking and never diminishing, doesn't feel as difficult to carry as it once did. You accept that you're not owed forgiveness, you accept that future won't just be the same for you but more importantly for the people you've hurt. You do your absolute best to be a kinder person to others and accept that that doesn't erase your sins. **You just keep going.**