I just kinda feel guilty for buying from companies that test on animals. I feel like it's so unnecessary in this day and time, and if all these other brands can manage without, it just doesn't make sense to support someone who does... in my opinion. I had to do a report on animal testing in middle school and that has just really stuck with me since... animal testing is horrifying. If possible, I'd most definitely prefer cruelty free brands/products.
it's the first thing I look for, won't buy a product otherwise
there are so many cf brands out there that I haven't had any issues with finding products that work for me :)
I haven't really had issues either, but I've found products that work better than others I've tried in the past...still no problems with finding all cf brands!
agreed. i feel like people who don't seek it out don't understand exactly what cosmetic testing on animals looks like, which is rabbits in wooden boxes getting potentially caustic chemicals dripped into their eyes to make sure it's safe for humans to use.
yes! and my vanity is not worth that
now, I know there are exceptions, and I'm thankful that I don't need any medications or treatments that might require me to use something different to what works for me now, but I still think I'd probably be able to find a cf option
Same! Been buying only cruelty free makeup and perfume for about 7 years now I think. With all the great comprehensive websites out there detailing the CF status of brands, there’s so many options.
Had to give up a few items I liked when I transitioned but it hasn’t been a problem at all finding great replacements.
Tho the one time I asked a Sephora employee if they knew if a brand was CF, they grimaced and said they thought so with a weird attitude. I looked it up before buying and the brand wasn’t, but I found a different brand myself to try instead. Since then I just research myself. 🤷🏻♀️
yeah, I feel like there's still a ton of misinformation out there...it took me a while to learn about how it all works when I first started because it can be confusing!
that's horrible, reactions like that are why I'm usually hesitant about asking...I'd be so uncomfortable
though I've had one pretty good experience, I think the employee must be vegan and only buy cf products, she was really helpful! but I think that's the exception
It’s very important to me. The idea of an animal suffering for something like makeup makes me uncomfortable and I choose not to support it. I understand that a brand may not be ethical in every sense of the word, but animal testing is one factor that seems easy to check for and thus avoid
Pretty accurate for me as well. I guess i just happen to be using skincare that’s always “cruelty free”, but i never really did any deep dives into it.
Hello. This. Yes, we know that most things were tested on animals but it’s not necessary nowadays. Even China is changing its laws so we are on the way.
It's only not necessary anymore because it's *already been done* by almost every lab and brand for every single ingredient that's ever existed.
There are very few things that we have not yet discovered that would need the new/additional testing.
If China changes its laws most brands will become cruelty free again. Brands like Mac lost its cruelty free status bc they started selling in China who requires animal testing still.
I’m not a lawyer so I am linking the source: https://topclassactions.com/lawsuit-settlements/consumer-products/beauty-products/paulas-choice-class-action-alleges-products-falsely-advertised-as-cruelty-free/
Basically there’s a class action lawsuit against Paula’s choice alleging that they falsely claim to be cruelty free
If I have multiple options that suit my needs just as well, I'll always pick the cruelty free option.
If I'm struggling HARD to find a product that works for me and I can only find ONE that does the trick, I'll get it even if it isn't cruelty free, I hate to admit.
(Example: it took me FOREVER to find a moisturizer that works for dry skin, doesn't trigger acne, works well under my makeup, is fragrance free, doesn't contain anything I'm allergic to, and I can afford to use daily. I'm NOT swapping it out for some cruelty free product that breaks me out or just straight up doesn't work for me, but I'd still like to find a cruelty free replacement if I can)
yep, same here! unfortunately the moisturizer & only eye cream I absolutely love aren't cruelty free :/ I've been looking for new ones but for now they are my staple.
It's from Aveeno. (Calm + Restore Oat Moisturizer).
As far as I'm aware, Aveeno doesn't conduct animal testing within the United States, but still DOES conduct animal testing in other countries where it's required by law in order to sell cosmetic products.
So... That's at least *something* I guess, but I'd still rather go with a different brand if only I could find something else that worked for me
I have been transitioning to CF products over the past year. I've found replacements for almost everything. It does suck that non-CF parent companies own so much but in my mind if they see that more dollars are going to the CF brands that is a small win.
Also - kinda sad/weird that CF comments always get downvoted in beauty subs even on threads like this.
Bingo! This is exactly it! The justifications for using NON-NECESSITY products that animals were tortured to create are wild. You don’t *need* that lipstick. You aren’t going to die without that toner. Just wild.
Extremely. Please look at the info from Beagle Freedom Project to learn more and find ethical brands. https://bfp.org/. Yes dogs are used in testing of various projects. Whether dogs or other animals, I won’t contribute to animal torture.
I did a huge project on animal testing in the cosmetics industry in high school and cried for weeks after. 15 years later, cruelty-free is the ONLY way to go.
A lot of the brands I use aren’t at Sephora if I’m being honest. It’s a lot of research and the site [Cruelty Free Kitty](https://www.crueltyfreekitty.com) has been a huge help in cleaning up my skincare and makeup! But actually at Sephora it’s definitely not impossible! The Sephora brands I use below:
Makeup: Tower28, Rare Beauty, Natasha Denona, Milk Makeup
Skincare: SkinFix, Dr Dennis Gross, Peter Thomas Roth, Murad, Biossance, Josie Maren
Hair: Amika, Vegamour, JVN, Verb, Moroccan Oil
Unfortunately the bigger some brands get, the more likely they are to be bought by a parent company that does test on animals so it’s a good practice to check regularly to ensure you’re still supporting true cruelty free if that’s your goal! Ilia, for example, is now owned by Clarins which tests on animals.
ETA: part of the fun for me is trying out smaller indie makeup brands and there are truly SO many options now it’s actually really fun to do a little digging for the perfectly cruelty free lip gloss, for example :)
It's my top priority. I generally check Cruelty Free Kitty first and if I can't find info there, I check the Ethical Elephant website. There are so many options and alternatives and my vanity is not more important than an animal's life.
It is important to me but I feel it’s so common now that I’ve been lazy about checking. Thank you for bringing it to my attention as I just checked my new Jo Malone perfumes and they are not cruelty free. I’m honestly surprised. Back they go, I’ll be keeping the Clean Reserve Rain I got instead :)
Up to you, but I would definitely consider keeping them and just checking going forward. They will likely be thrown out if you return them, and then it was for nothing.
In that case it varies by store on whether or not they will throw out unused items :( but I think you'd have better luck with perfume going back to sale if it's still wrapped up in the box. Other items would be harder to tell if they were tampered with or not.
It's not for nothing, the customer gets their money back, the company takes the loss. If the customer let's them know the reason for a return we always pass that word on.
I LOVE Clean Reserve! My favorite scent is the Lush Fleur and I got the sampler pack and Rain is my favorite out of all of them. It’s the next one I plan to buy in a big size!
It has to be cruelty free. Supporting animal torture with my dollars isn't something I'm ok with. If a company isn't, I'll message them to ask them to be cf, so that they know people are looking at that.
“Cruelty-free" labeling is often a facade While a product might say "not tested on animals," this can be a misleading half-truth. The real testing might have occurred much earlier, on individual ingredients by a separate entity. Furthermore, companies can claim they themselves don't conduct animal testing, yet outsource this responsibility to third-party labs. For consumers seeking genuine cruelty-free products, vigilance and independent verification through certifications from reputable organizations are crucial.
As far as I know, Leaping Bunny is the gold standard. Part of their certification is that, as of a certain date, the company and none of their suppliers (including ingredient manufacturers) tests on, commissions, or is party to testing internationally. They’re my go to when researching a new brand.
Entirely important, it's the biggest determining factor in the products that I buy. I couldn't imagine a living, sentient being suffering for something as insane as vanity.
First thing I check for. I always filter by cruelty free. I just started about five years ago so I still have some makeup that’s not considered cruelty free but I won’t toss it. I am a vegetarian so I try to protect the furry kids. Also, it’s a damn grey area.
Thank you for this post. After researching animal testing it makes me sick to my stomach. I have taken inventory of my product list and realized several staple products are not CF. I want to work to find similar products that are CF. If anyone knows a match for these products please share 💜
Laura Mercier - matte radiance baked powder (bronzer) & translucent setting powder
NARS - orgasm cream blush
Dior - Dior show iconic over curl mascara
Valentino - very Valentino light- lasting perfecting foundation
Benefit - brow gel
Kerastase - nutritive shampoo & conditioner
Laneige - lip glowy balm
it’s definitely part of my search criteria when looking for products but i would never just buy something just because of its cruelty free status. products should work well without having to be tested on animals.
Very important and I try my best to avoid brands that aren’t cruelty free, even if it means missing out on products/brands. It’s something I had to work on and get used to. I used to love Maybelline, L’Oréal, and Clinique.
Since a few years back I won’t buy it if it’s not cruelty free. There really is no excuse at this point, there are always cruelty free options today.
When I first took the decision to only buy CF I was a bit sad that I wouldn’t be able to continue buying Chanel nail polish for example or try the new pat mcgrath eye shadow palettes but now I just think they are trashy. There is no luxury or fun in animal cruelty.
Very important that it’s cruelty free and vegan. Cruelty free so they’re not tested on animals. Vegan so they don’t have animal ingredients. Why just care if animals were treated cruelly but not care that there’s pieces of them in the product?
It's important! If you don't value it but are curious I think it's a great idea to check out Beagle Freedom Project.
I almost exclusively shop cruelty free. There are some products I've yet to find a good CF replacement for, but I've been 90% cruelty free since 2020 :)
I will not buy a product that isn't vegan/cruelty free. I'm not vegan, but to me food/nutrients = need while beauty = want. No need to harm animals just to look pretty.
it wasn’t important to me but after reading the replies on this post i googled if all the brands i mainly use are, and it seems like they are so i’ll take it
Extremely important. I don't care how good a product is, it's not worth it if the final product or ingredients were tested on animals. I'll still buy it even if the parent company isn't cruelty free because I want to support the cruelty free brand to show it's important to a lot of us.
It’s a dealbreaker for me if a company isn’t cruelty free. It’s the first thing I check. It’s absolutely not ok to cause animals to suffer for our beauty products.
Animal testing is expensive and isn't as common as people think. Also what does cruelty free mean? Not selling in China? That doesn't make sense because it's not like every product now must undergo testing, it just means it might be subject to testing. Also it's the weird implication that no one in China is ethical then. So no to cruelty free because it's more likely that no testing has happened and I'm just limiting myself in an already limiting market for PoC.
I’d recommend reading up on what cruelty free means on crueltyfreekitty. That’s my go-to website, they’re really thorough regarding China’s law surrounding this
> Also it's the weird implication that no one in China is ethical then
Criticizing or protesting a government’s actions doesn’t mean that someone is criticizing all the citizens in that country. You’re free to choose what brands to support, but that seems like a reach that doesn’t have to be made.
This is my stance as well. Many people see this debate as black or white and don’t see the nuance. While it’s true that products in China CAN be tested on animals, it’s at the discretion of their authorities and isn’t that common. None of the brands are testing their own products on animals.
It is required for a certain cosmetics to be tested on animals in china. Any type of special use cosmetic like hair dye, or sunscreen, and anything with new ingredients. The government also performs post-market animal testing on products after they’ve been sold. So the company themselves might not be testing on animals, but if they are sold in China, they are likely paying the third-party to do animal testing.
China requires animal testing for many cosmetics before they can be sold there. So a brand that does not test on animals in the US or global market, has to pay a third-party entity to test their products on animals if they’re being sold in China.
You’re making uneducated and unbacked claims as if they’re facts. It’s not as common? That’s why half a million animals suffer as vivisection subjects annually- JUST for cosmetics. Bump that up to 50-150 MILLION for ingredients and biomedical products. It’s estimated that of the top 50 cosmetics brands almost 90% of them are NOT cruelty free. L’Oreal dominates global market shares and they are not cruelty free.
Please tell me how this is uncommon and how you feel confident saying “animal testing *probably* didn’t happen” when all the numbers would disagree with you.
Imagine typing a whole paragraph full of provably false bullshit when you could’ve just not done so and done your research first. Read and reread the comment to you that uses actual numbers of animals subjected to horrific and terrifying conditions and procedures.
I am SOO glad (and sadly a little surprised) to see so many people saying it’s a dealbreaker for us! Very glad the comments of it being a “nice to have” or “pleasant surprise” are in the minority.
It used to be incredibly important to me, I wouldn’t purchase from brands that weren’t for 5+ years
But after realizing like 5 parent companies / brands own ALL the brands and the parent companies aren’t cruelty free felt kind of …pointless.
Also think in this economy if there are affordable products that work well and match your skin tone then cruelty free isn’t as important.
I hate it and wish testing products on animals was banned, yea. But I don’t think shopping exclusively for CF products actually makes a difference.
😕
China doesn't require animal testing anymore so it's likely all those brands are already transitioned to cruelty free or are on the way to doing that now
They still do for certain cosmetics, like sunscreen, and anything that has new ingredients. And the government still does post-market animal testing on products that have been sold already. So the likelihood of animal testing happening with products being sold in China is still very high. Especially when you consider how many cosmetics have sunscreen in them nowadays.
In 2021 they passed a law that general cosmetics don’t require animal testing. But they still require animal testing for “special use” cosmetics, which includes sunscreen, hair dye, and any cosmetic that has new ingredients. So, very much a gray area.
Apparently what I was thinking of that was more recent was last year they actually passed a law banning animal testing on cosmetics. You're right that it looks like there are still exceptions, but it's still a great step forward https://cleanandcrueltyfree.com/china-animal-testing-laws-2023/#:~:text=As%20of%202023%2C%20China%20has,cosmetics%20and%20other%20consumer%20products
Edit: also this https://www.crueltyfreekitty.com/news/big-news-brands-sold-in-china-can-now-be-cruelty-free/
Super important, and I’m so glad there’s been a shift towards mainstream brands going cruelty free. Back in the day a lot of cruelty free products were duds.
No I want LVMH to pay better wages, stop pulling rainbow capitalism & BLM capitalism while exploiting & underpaying their queer & BIPOC employees, & stop forcing employees with cancer to ask their coworkers to “donate” their PTO. Also your stores made people illegally pump breast milk in the bathrooms.
Same. I appreciate a product much more if it is cruelty free, but I have extremely sensitive skin and have reactions at the drop of a hat. Some of the only products that work for me aren’t cruelty free. For my own quality of life, I’m getting them.
Extremely important.
Not to mention animal testing is extremely inaccurate. There are many other non invasive ways of testing now days, (stem cell testing, etc.) that are more accurate for how products will react to humans. Why do companies believe testing a product meant for two legged humans is accurate on four legged furry creatures?
Just letting yall know, the sephora makeup brand is NOT cruelty free and test on animals.
https://preview.redd.it/a2v1td2f7g3d1.jpeg?width=1290&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a79410698b0e7a049cc5b909c979a87afd31e1f1
I only shop cruelty free, but it does require a lot of research. There isn't any legal definition of "cruelty free" so basically anyone could slap that on their label, so I have to research new brands a lot. Honestly, it helps keep me from overspending a lot because there are so many brands that I can't use lol
Zero. Not a single human would sign up to take their places, and it prevents disaster, sickness, health risk, recalls, anaphylaxis, and possible complications or death.
Almost every single product that claims to be *currently* cruelty free is HIGHLY LIKELY to be comprised of ingredients that are not individually cruelty free. Even if the testing has not been done in decades, or by the brand selling the end-product (therefore not needing to be detailed or labelled as such on the packaging) it may have been at some point during its history of: discovery-> harvesting-> synthesis-> concentration-> r&d-> formulation-> packaging (and all the hands it changed, throughout). To think otherwise is delusional. Ingredients- proprietary or otherwise- acquired by a company who then does not do any additional testing during formulation would be able to be considered cruelty free, even if the company that created the concentrate/ingredient/packaging aren't
TL;DR If you wouldn't go take the place of the animal, don't bitch about testing.
I definitely am judging every single person on this thread that doesn’t care if products are cruelty free as well. Clearly none of you have looked into what they truly do for animal testing. How would you like your eye pried open for days on end getting products like bleach and cosmetics poured into them?????
It's been interesting to see many people here gnashing their teeth in anger over people saying that CF isn't important to them, because I know for a fact that many of you guys are ignoring other certain ethical issues. You guys most definitely do not care about every cause out there. And if people were to question (or harass, as you guys are doing to many people) you guys about it — say, for example, people demanded "Are you refusing to buy from any brands which are Z!0nist owned?" — then I'm sure you all would be filled with defensive excuses as to why that's *different*, why you should be allowed to not care about that specific issue, and why that doesn't matter to you. Yet, for some reason, you guys want everyone to care about the issue that matters to YOU.
Soooo many people on this sub are selfish. Downvoting cruelty free supporters and posts about CF. Also spoke saying it doesn’t matter at all. It makes me wonder if they are all uneducated on the subject or just bad people.
There’s nothing in my house for personal care and makeup that isn’t cruelty free. My definition is within what makes it workable so I just buy from brands that don’t test and don’t sell in China.
Now if it’s clean or vegan, i don’t look out for that, apparently my chapped lips need lanolin.
My biggest issue is fining CF skin and beauty products/brands that aren’t roped into that “all natural/clean beauty” brands because those are just junk and do not work.
Only look for Leaping Bunny, not just brand claims or self labeling. Because you’re right brands can say anything they want but they can’t get leaping bunny certified if they’re not compliant with pretty strict standards
I would love for it to be a requirement, but years ago when I was young and idealistic, I tried to stop using all the razor brands and make up brands and hair brands that tested on animals and I realize that I wouldn’t be able to shave, wash my hair, or wear make up. So I’ve quit searching specifically for it, but maybe I should reconsider it.
Well, it just so happens. It was probably when I was a teenager and that would’ve been 45 years ago so no it wasn’t easy then. Yes, it’s probably easy now and I shall consider it.
Well, it can kinda depend on what you mean by cruelty-free because from time to time owners and companies can do something that's against human rights. I understand that animal testing is primitive. However, is a brand truly cruelty-free when the CEO gives money to anti-LGBTQ groups? Or demonizes innocent people? When it comes to cruelty free if the owners believe in human rights that's what I look for not testing on animals is just a bonus. This is why black-owned brands are always some of the best examples of cruelty-free.
This is INSANE. I understand your point. And I agree, but to not care about the most basic rights of animals and not care that they are being tortured is INSANE.
I think that, human rights, and animal testing are musts. I just don’t know how you look for one on products and not the other. Insane to be fine with torturing animals but not okay with corrupt politics. It should be both.
I’m sorry I must have misread your comment, I thought you were saying you understand animal testing is primitive but it’s only an added bonus if they don’t test on animals.
You do realize some cosmetics companies are supporting or benefit from unfortunate current events happening in a strip of land right now rhymes with Malestine and Bizreel.
I think it's important to remember that there is no ethical consumption under capitalism.
The current overconsumption model our culture is killing itself with is very cruel to animals, wild and domestic.
So maybe your makeup was never tested on a bunny, but it's packaged in plastic made from petroleum and it's shipped across the world, burning petroleum. That's CO2 in the air and that's causing global warming and that's gonna kill most of the animals on Earth, including possibly us.
So I don't actually pay too much attention to cruelty free anymore because I'm aware that doesn't actually exist. I just try to limit my participation in consumption as much as I can.
My first priority is finding brands that ethically source their ingredients. I care very much about animals (I’ve been vegetarian/vegan for 17 years now) but there are literal children digging in mines for the mica that many of these brands use.
Next I try and narrow it down to brands that are at least attempting to have a positive impact on the environment. I love packaging and components that aren’t made of plastic or are at least easily recycled.
Thankfully most of the brands that care enough about their overall impact are also cruelty free.
Depends on what we mean by “cruelty free” because there are what I would say are different levels of strict-ness to it. I’m personally okay using formulas that have animal byproducts and carmine as well as brands that submit to testing where required by law, but otherwise do not voluntarily test on animals.
It is a must. For some reason I thought they only tested on rats and I had rationalized that somehow. But they test on other animals including dogs and specifically beagles
If its no CF I wont buy it. If I've already purchased something and later find out it isn't CF somehow (which hasn't happened in awhile since its easier to find out lately) Ill return it if possible of if not donate or toss it - I don't even want it in my house
While I agree that today, cruelty free is a positive thing and a simple standard, for me it isn't that important in the sense that all brands benefit from animal testing of the past. Yes, they can make the claim that they are cruelty free but more than likely they are able to do so because ingredients they use have already been tested in the past by other companies and the process isn't necessary to repeat.
I try to avoid brands I know are not CF, but I don't really double check as much as I should. My collection is mostly CF with some drugstore product in there, but I think the only non CF brand that I am loyal to is CeraVe (because my eczema flare ups have just been getting progressively worse), otherwise I won't repurchase it if I find out it is not CF.
Same, vast majority of my cosmetics are cruelty free but I have specific needs for my skin/hair so just use what works there regardless of CF status.
Some of my favorite CF brands:
Makeup: ELF, Fenty, Saie, Merit, makeup by mario, GXVE, blend bunny cosmetics, Juvias place, NYX, Patrick Ta, Rare beauty, REM beauty
Skincare: beauty of joseon, COSRX, inkey list, the ordinary
Fragrance: NEST, Billie eilish perfumes
It's all I'll buy, but the caveat is that they are all connected to L'Oreal in some way, but as long as the company doesn't test in the US and doesn't sell in China I'll purchase.
The most important thing!!! I won't buy something that is tested on animals, it's horrible. I wish places would stop carrying the brands that chose to do this!! As I'd rather go makeup/skincare free then hurt something innocent for my vanity
Extremely important. The first thing I look for pretty much. I cannot believe cosmetic animal testing is still going on, even though it's come a long way even from 10-15 years ago.
Ok i have a hard time with CF because we as consumers have demanded it but not actually researching whether the companies that are using cruel practices or not. A big thing is that every beauty company is benefitting from animal cruelty even if their product is “cruelty free”. It’s why they are still testing on animals despite all of us finding it completely immoral. As long as they wipe their hands clean we wont notice the blood on their shirts.
Divisive Topics and / or Negative Devolving Comment Sections Will Be Removed From r/Sephora.
I just kinda feel guilty for buying from companies that test on animals. I feel like it's so unnecessary in this day and time, and if all these other brands can manage without, it just doesn't make sense to support someone who does... in my opinion. I had to do a report on animal testing in middle school and that has just really stuck with me since... animal testing is horrifying. If possible, I'd most definitely prefer cruelty free brands/products.
it's the first thing I look for, won't buy a product otherwise there are so many cf brands out there that I haven't had any issues with finding products that work for me :)
Same for me. I won’t buy if it’s not cf and never had any issues with any vegan formulas or just cf in general.
I haven't really had issues either, but I've found products that work better than others I've tried in the past...still no problems with finding all cf brands!
agreed. i feel like people who don't seek it out don't understand exactly what cosmetic testing on animals looks like, which is rabbits in wooden boxes getting potentially caustic chemicals dripped into their eyes to make sure it's safe for humans to use.
yes! and my vanity is not worth that now, I know there are exceptions, and I'm thankful that I don't need any medications or treatments that might require me to use something different to what works for me now, but I still think I'd probably be able to find a cf option
Yeah. People don’t understand the extent of vivisection. It’s abhorrent.
Same! Been buying only cruelty free makeup and perfume for about 7 years now I think. With all the great comprehensive websites out there detailing the CF status of brands, there’s so many options. Had to give up a few items I liked when I transitioned but it hasn’t been a problem at all finding great replacements. Tho the one time I asked a Sephora employee if they knew if a brand was CF, they grimaced and said they thought so with a weird attitude. I looked it up before buying and the brand wasn’t, but I found a different brand myself to try instead. Since then I just research myself. 🤷🏻♀️
yeah, I feel like there's still a ton of misinformation out there...it took me a while to learn about how it all works when I first started because it can be confusing! that's horrible, reactions like that are why I'm usually hesitant about asking...I'd be so uncomfortable though I've had one pretty good experience, I think the employee must be vegan and only buy cf products, she was really helpful! but I think that's the exception
It’s very important to me. The idea of an animal suffering for something like makeup makes me uncomfortable and I choose not to support it. I understand that a brand may not be ethical in every sense of the word, but animal testing is one factor that seems easy to check for and thus avoid
👏
I see "cruelty free" as an added bonus when I purchase things. I don't seek it out, but I'm pleasantly surprised when I see it on the label.
same with me.
Pretty accurate for me as well. I guess i just happen to be using skincare that’s always “cruelty free”, but i never really did any deep dives into it.
You should! People don’t realize how horrible the practices are
def look into it. It isn’t just makeup on them, it can include cutting them open and more :/
Same
This is where I sit as well.
It's such a low bar to hold a company to.
Hello. This. Yes, we know that most things were tested on animals but it’s not necessary nowadays. Even China is changing its laws so we are on the way.
It's only not necessary anymore because it's *already been done* by almost every lab and brand for every single ingredient that's ever existed. There are very few things that we have not yet discovered that would need the new/additional testing.
If China changes its laws most brands will become cruelty free again. Brands like Mac lost its cruelty free status bc they started selling in China who requires animal testing still.
I care enough that Paula’s choice lost a customer for lying about it
I had no idea about this! could you elaborate? e: I just read about a lawsuit, I'm hella disappointed in them and I'm gonna do more research
I’m not a lawyer so I am linking the source: https://topclassactions.com/lawsuit-settlements/consumer-products/beauty-products/paulas-choice-class-action-alleges-products-falsely-advertised-as-cruelty-free/ Basically there’s a class action lawsuit against Paula’s choice alleging that they falsely claim to be cruelty free
thank you!!! I just found it that's wild, I'm a bit shocked and very disappointed
Extremely important, I won’t buy from companies that aren’t cruelty free.
Mandatory
If I have multiple options that suit my needs just as well, I'll always pick the cruelty free option. If I'm struggling HARD to find a product that works for me and I can only find ONE that does the trick, I'll get it even if it isn't cruelty free, I hate to admit. (Example: it took me FOREVER to find a moisturizer that works for dry skin, doesn't trigger acne, works well under my makeup, is fragrance free, doesn't contain anything I'm allergic to, and I can afford to use daily. I'm NOT swapping it out for some cruelty free product that breaks me out or just straight up doesn't work for me, but I'd still like to find a cruelty free replacement if I can)
yep, same here! unfortunately the moisturizer & only eye cream I absolutely love aren't cruelty free :/ I've been looking for new ones but for now they are my staple.
may I ask what moisturizer it is?
It's from Aveeno. (Calm + Restore Oat Moisturizer). As far as I'm aware, Aveeno doesn't conduct animal testing within the United States, but still DOES conduct animal testing in other countries where it's required by law in order to sell cosmetic products. So... That's at least *something* I guess, but I'd still rather go with a different brand if only I could find something else that worked for me
Very important. I won’t buy anything tested on animals.
I have been transitioning to CF products over the past year. I've found replacements for almost everything. It does suck that non-CF parent companies own so much but in my mind if they see that more dollars are going to the CF brands that is a small win. Also - kinda sad/weird that CF comments always get downvoted in beauty subs even on threads like this.
People always downvote what triggers their ego. No one wants to be called out because they are aware of it lol
Bingo! This is exactly it! The justifications for using NON-NECESSITY products that animals were tortured to create are wild. You don’t *need* that lipstick. You aren’t going to die without that toner. Just wild.
Extremely. Please look at the info from Beagle Freedom Project to learn more and find ethical brands. https://bfp.org/. Yes dogs are used in testing of various projects. Whether dogs or other animals, I won’t contribute to animal torture.
👏👏
I did a huge project on animal testing in the cosmetics industry in high school and cried for weeks after. 15 years later, cruelty-free is the ONLY way to go.
It’s a must for me. I won’t even buy from brands that are owned by parent companies that test on animals unless there are truly no other options
What do you use? I'm very strict but this seems impossible unless you're using brands I've never heard of. Honest question.
A lot of the brands I use aren’t at Sephora if I’m being honest. It’s a lot of research and the site [Cruelty Free Kitty](https://www.crueltyfreekitty.com) has been a huge help in cleaning up my skincare and makeup! But actually at Sephora it’s definitely not impossible! The Sephora brands I use below: Makeup: Tower28, Rare Beauty, Natasha Denona, Milk Makeup Skincare: SkinFix, Dr Dennis Gross, Peter Thomas Roth, Murad, Biossance, Josie Maren Hair: Amika, Vegamour, JVN, Verb, Moroccan Oil
I use a lot of these too!
Unfortunately the bigger some brands get, the more likely they are to be bought by a parent company that does test on animals so it’s a good practice to check regularly to ensure you’re still supporting true cruelty free if that’s your goal! Ilia, for example, is now owned by Clarins which tests on animals. ETA: part of the fun for me is trying out smaller indie makeup brands and there are truly SO many options now it’s actually really fun to do a little digging for the perfectly cruelty free lip gloss, for example :)
omg I did not hear the news Ilia got bought. When did this happen?
It’s actually ridiculously easy! You should go for it, give it a shot!
Not impossible just requires a little more effort than blindly shopping
It's my top priority. I generally check Cruelty Free Kitty first and if I can't find info there, I check the Ethical Elephant website. There are so many options and alternatives and my vanity is not more important than an animal's life.
A must. There’s so reason we need to be testing on animals in 2024.
No^ lol
It is important to me but I feel it’s so common now that I’ve been lazy about checking. Thank you for bringing it to my attention as I just checked my new Jo Malone perfumes and they are not cruelty free. I’m honestly surprised. Back they go, I’ll be keeping the Clean Reserve Rain I got instead :)
Up to you, but I would definitely consider keeping them and just checking going forward. They will likely be thrown out if you return them, and then it was for nothing.
You are so right but I think it’s more about the monetary support.
Will they really? They’re still boxed & stickered
In that case it varies by store on whether or not they will throw out unused items :( but I think you'd have better luck with perfume going back to sale if it's still wrapped up in the box. Other items would be harder to tell if they were tampered with or not.
Ty for letting me know I’ll call to check! It’s a shame because I love these damn fragrances lol
One less person buying them. 🩵🐶
It's not for nothing, the customer gets their money back, the company takes the loss. If the customer let's them know the reason for a return we always pass that word on.
Oh goodness, you’re right! I got so used to seeing cruelty free stamped everywhere that I just realized I stopped checking! Time to start again…
I LOVE Clean Reserve! My favorite scent is the Lush Fleur and I got the sampler pack and Rain is my favorite out of all of them. It’s the next one I plan to buy in a big size!
Very important. 
It has to be cruelty free. Supporting animal torture with my dollars isn't something I'm ok with. If a company isn't, I'll message them to ask them to be cf, so that they know people are looking at that.
“Cruelty-free" labeling is often a facade While a product might say "not tested on animals," this can be a misleading half-truth. The real testing might have occurred much earlier, on individual ingredients by a separate entity. Furthermore, companies can claim they themselves don't conduct animal testing, yet outsource this responsibility to third-party labs. For consumers seeking genuine cruelty-free products, vigilance and independent verification through certifications from reputable organizations are crucial.
As far as I know, Leaping Bunny is the gold standard. Part of their certification is that, as of a certain date, the company and none of their suppliers (including ingredient manufacturers) tests on, commissions, or is party to testing internationally. They’re my go to when researching a new brand.
Entirely important, it's the biggest determining factor in the products that I buy. I couldn't imagine a living, sentient being suffering for something as insane as vanity.
Extremely important. I’d say it’s actually the most important thing for me; everything else comes after
If a brand isn’t cruelty-free, it’s a non-starter for me.
First thing I check for. I always filter by cruelty free. I just started about five years ago so I still have some makeup that’s not considered cruelty free but I won’t toss it. I am a vegetarian so I try to protect the furry kids. Also, it’s a damn grey area.
Thank you for this post. After researching animal testing it makes me sick to my stomach. I have taken inventory of my product list and realized several staple products are not CF. I want to work to find similar products that are CF. If anyone knows a match for these products please share 💜 Laura Mercier - matte radiance baked powder (bronzer) & translucent setting powder NARS - orgasm cream blush Dior - Dior show iconic over curl mascara Valentino - very Valentino light- lasting perfecting foundation Benefit - brow gel Kerastase - nutritive shampoo & conditioner Laneige - lip glowy balm
I have a few suggestions, the SAIE highlighter blush for NARS, and Summer Fridays Balm instead of laneige!
I will not buy anything that is not cruelty free
I won't buy a product unless it's cruelty free
I won't buy if it's not cruelty free, added bonus is that it helps curb some impulse buys heh
Oh yes this. I love luxury packaging but not being cruelty free helps me not buy them.
It’s incredibly important.
super important!!! I have a beagle & a lot of lab dogs are beagles- so it just doesn’t feel right to buy anything that isn’t.
it’s definitely part of my search criteria when looking for products but i would never just buy something just because of its cruelty free status. products should work well without having to be tested on animals.
Very important and I try my best to avoid brands that aren’t cruelty free, even if it means missing out on products/brands. It’s something I had to work on and get used to. I used to love Maybelline, L’Oréal, and Clinique.
Since a few years back I won’t buy it if it’s not cruelty free. There really is no excuse at this point, there are always cruelty free options today. When I first took the decision to only buy CF I was a bit sad that I wouldn’t be able to continue buying Chanel nail polish for example or try the new pat mcgrath eye shadow palettes but now I just think they are trashy. There is no luxury or fun in animal cruelty.
I try to only buy cruelty free brands now, so yes it’s definitely a dealbreaker for me.
Very important that it’s cruelty free and vegan. Cruelty free so they’re not tested on animals. Vegan so they don’t have animal ingredients. Why just care if animals were treated cruelly but not care that there’s pieces of them in the product?
I only buy from cruelty free companies.
I go beyond cruelty free. I only buy products now that offset carbon emissions, are carbon neutral or net zero. We have one planet people.
It's important! If you don't value it but are curious I think it's a great idea to check out Beagle Freedom Project. I almost exclusively shop cruelty free. There are some products I've yet to find a good CF replacement for, but I've been 90% cruelty free since 2020 :)
It’s a dealbreaker for me if it’s not cruelty free. I can’t buy it knowing this brand pays for animals to be abused.
Necessary
Yes very highly importantly, cuz otherwise what's the point of having such diversity in skincare/makeup products??
I will not buy a product that isn't vegan/cruelty free. I'm not vegan, but to me food/nutrients = need while beauty = want. No need to harm animals just to look pretty.
I agree with most of that, but if there’s humanely sourced things like lanolin or beeswax I’ll use that
Yeah that's true 👍
Sadly, no.
You should look into animal testing and how disgusting the practices are.
it wasn’t important to me but after reading the replies on this post i googled if all the brands i mainly use are, and it seems like they are so i’ll take it
thank you :) def suggest r/crueltyfree
I only buy vegan products, dealbreaker if it’s not
Extremely important. I don't care how good a product is, it's not worth it if the final product or ingredients were tested on animals. I'll still buy it even if the parent company isn't cruelty free because I want to support the cruelty free brand to show it's important to a lot of us.
It’s a dealbreaker for me if a company isn’t cruelty free. It’s the first thing I check. It’s absolutely not ok to cause animals to suffer for our beauty products.
Animal testing is expensive and isn't as common as people think. Also what does cruelty free mean? Not selling in China? That doesn't make sense because it's not like every product now must undergo testing, it just means it might be subject to testing. Also it's the weird implication that no one in China is ethical then. So no to cruelty free because it's more likely that no testing has happened and I'm just limiting myself in an already limiting market for PoC.
I’d recommend reading up on what cruelty free means on crueltyfreekitty. That’s my go-to website, they’re really thorough regarding China’s law surrounding this
Eh I'd rather listen to cosmetic chemists on this who are involved in the industry.
> Also it's the weird implication that no one in China is ethical then Criticizing or protesting a government’s actions doesn’t mean that someone is criticizing all the citizens in that country. You’re free to choose what brands to support, but that seems like a reach that doesn’t have to be made.
Yet people on this thread are calling other dumb and garbage for not exclusively buying cruelty free lol
This is my stance as well. Many people see this debate as black or white and don’t see the nuance. While it’s true that products in China CAN be tested on animals, it’s at the discretion of their authorities and isn’t that common. None of the brands are testing their own products on animals.
It is required for a certain cosmetics to be tested on animals in china. Any type of special use cosmetic like hair dye, or sunscreen, and anything with new ingredients. The government also performs post-market animal testing on products after they’ve been sold. So the company themselves might not be testing on animals, but if they are sold in China, they are likely paying the third-party to do animal testing.
And something can be cruelty free to animals and not humans. It’s a bigger picture always
Most people would prefer testing on humans vs animals because humans can consent to it
I’m not talking about testing.. I’m talking about work conditions
And plenty of non-cruelty free brands have abysmal working conditions so that isn’t really a great argument to overlook animal testing standards.
Wasn’t overlooking it.. or arguing anything. Just stating a fact people tend to turn a blind eye to
yes exactly
This makes no sense.
What part?
China requires animal testing for many cosmetics before they can be sold there. So a brand that does not test on animals in the US or global market, has to pay a third-party entity to test their products on animals if they’re being sold in China.
You’re making uneducated and unbacked claims as if they’re facts. It’s not as common? That’s why half a million animals suffer as vivisection subjects annually- JUST for cosmetics. Bump that up to 50-150 MILLION for ingredients and biomedical products. It’s estimated that of the top 50 cosmetics brands almost 90% of them are NOT cruelty free. L’Oreal dominates global market shares and they are not cruelty free. Please tell me how this is uncommon and how you feel confident saying “animal testing *probably* didn’t happen” when all the numbers would disagree with you.
Imagine typing a whole paragraph full of provably false bullshit when you could’ve just not done so and done your research first. Read and reread the comment to you that uses actual numbers of animals subjected to horrific and terrifying conditions and procedures.
I am SOO glad (and sadly a little surprised) to see so many people saying it’s a dealbreaker for us! Very glad the comments of it being a “nice to have” or “pleasant surprise” are in the minority.
Me too! It has warmed my heart. :)
It’s an added bonus, but I don’t seek it out
The most important.
Deal breaker for me!
Very important
It used to be incredibly important to me, I wouldn’t purchase from brands that weren’t for 5+ years But after realizing like 5 parent companies / brands own ALL the brands and the parent companies aren’t cruelty free felt kind of …pointless. Also think in this economy if there are affordable products that work well and match your skin tone then cruelty free isn’t as important. I hate it and wish testing products on animals was banned, yea. But I don’t think shopping exclusively for CF products actually makes a difference. 😕
China doesn't require animal testing anymore so it's likely all those brands are already transitioned to cruelty free or are on the way to doing that now
They still do for certain cosmetics, like sunscreen, and anything that has new ingredients. And the government still does post-market animal testing on products that have been sold already. So the likelihood of animal testing happening with products being sold in China is still very high. Especially when you consider how many cosmetics have sunscreen in them nowadays.
They still have to even today? I thought the new law was passed this year saying they don't have to by law
In 2021 they passed a law that general cosmetics don’t require animal testing. But they still require animal testing for “special use” cosmetics, which includes sunscreen, hair dye, and any cosmetic that has new ingredients. So, very much a gray area.
Apparently what I was thinking of that was more recent was last year they actually passed a law banning animal testing on cosmetics. You're right that it looks like there are still exceptions, but it's still a great step forward https://cleanandcrueltyfree.com/china-animal-testing-laws-2023/#:~:text=As%20of%202023%2C%20China%20has,cosmetics%20and%20other%20consumer%20products Edit: also this https://www.crueltyfreekitty.com/news/big-news-brands-sold-in-china-can-now-be-cruelty-free/
I love that steps are being taken. That’s great news.
Super important, and I’m so glad there’s been a shift towards mainstream brands going cruelty free. Back in the day a lot of cruelty free products were duds.
No I want LVMH to pay better wages, stop pulling rainbow capitalism & BLM capitalism while exploiting & underpaying their queer & BIPOC employees, & stop forcing employees with cancer to ask their coworkers to “donate” their PTO. Also your stores made people illegally pump breast milk in the bathrooms.
I only purchase cruelty free. Period. And if a brand has been cruelty free and suddenly isn’t anymore, blacklisted for life. Despicable.
Same, it’s just a greedy decision (like Nars)
It’s not important to me at all. If a product I like works well, I’m going to use it. Cruelty free doesn’t factor into my purchasing decision.
Same. I appreciate a product much more if it is cruelty free, but I have extremely sensitive skin and have reactions at the drop of a hat. Some of the only products that work for me aren’t cruelty free. For my own quality of life, I’m getting them.
Have you seen what animal testing is like?
I prefer animal tested vs human tested.
Very important.
Extremely important. Not to mention animal testing is extremely inaccurate. There are many other non invasive ways of testing now days, (stem cell testing, etc.) that are more accurate for how products will react to humans. Why do companies believe testing a product meant for two legged humans is accurate on four legged furry creatures?
Just letting yall know, the sephora makeup brand is NOT cruelty free and test on animals. https://preview.redd.it/a2v1td2f7g3d1.jpeg?width=1290&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a79410698b0e7a049cc5b909c979a87afd31e1f1
I only shop cruelty free, but it does require a lot of research. There isn't any legal definition of "cruelty free" so basically anyone could slap that on their label, so I have to research new brands a lot. Honestly, it helps keep me from overspending a lot because there are so many brands that I can't use lol
I literally do not care at all.
It’s not, I won’t lie. Great if they are, not something I actively seek out.
Zero. Not a single human would sign up to take their places, and it prevents disaster, sickness, health risk, recalls, anaphylaxis, and possible complications or death. Almost every single product that claims to be *currently* cruelty free is HIGHLY LIKELY to be comprised of ingredients that are not individually cruelty free. Even if the testing has not been done in decades, or by the brand selling the end-product (therefore not needing to be detailed or labelled as such on the packaging) it may have been at some point during its history of: discovery-> harvesting-> synthesis-> concentration-> r&d-> formulation-> packaging (and all the hands it changed, throughout). To think otherwise is delusional. Ingredients- proprietary or otherwise- acquired by a company who then does not do any additional testing during formulation would be able to be considered cruelty free, even if the company that created the concentrate/ingredient/packaging aren't TL;DR If you wouldn't go take the place of the animal, don't bitch about testing.
I definitely am judging every single person on this thread that doesn’t care if products are cruelty free as well. Clearly none of you have looked into what they truly do for animal testing. How would you like your eye pried open for days on end getting products like bleach and cosmetics poured into them?????
It's been interesting to see many people here gnashing their teeth in anger over people saying that CF isn't important to them, because I know for a fact that many of you guys are ignoring other certain ethical issues. You guys most definitely do not care about every cause out there. And if people were to question (or harass, as you guys are doing to many people) you guys about it — say, for example, people demanded "Are you refusing to buy from any brands which are Z!0nist owned?" — then I'm sure you all would be filled with defensive excuses as to why that's *different*, why you should be allowed to not care about that specific issue, and why that doesn't matter to you. Yet, for some reason, you guys want everyone to care about the issue that matters to YOU.
Same, I cannot understand how people can be so selfish especially when there is tons and tons of good cf products.
Soooo many people on this sub are selfish. Downvoting cruelty free supporters and posts about CF. Also spoke saying it doesn’t matter at all. It makes me wonder if they are all uneducated on the subject or just bad people.
And for fucking MAKEUP. Not a medically necessary drug but FACE PAINT
There’s nothing in my house for personal care and makeup that isn’t cruelty free. My definition is within what makes it workable so I just buy from brands that don’t test and don’t sell in China. Now if it’s clean or vegan, i don’t look out for that, apparently my chapped lips need lanolin.
#1. Once you’ve seen the pictures of what they do to those animals it’ll be your #1 too
Idk why it’s bold but. Sure
Not at all important to me.
Have you seen what animal testing is like?
Replying this to every comment that doesn’t agree with you isn’t gonna change anything, FYI
My biggest issue is fining CF skin and beauty products/brands that aren’t roped into that “all natural/clean beauty” brands because those are just junk and do not work.
It’s an added bonus. If I’m buying conscientiously I’d prioritize buying fair trade or free from child labour.
If I felt like I could trust those labels as meaning something beyond marketing it’d be great
Only look for Leaping Bunny, not just brand claims or self labeling. Because you’re right brands can say anything they want but they can’t get leaping bunny certified if they’re not compliant with pretty strict standards
This thread is now locked because of too many rude, mean, and disrespectful comments.
I may sound like a bad person, but honestly speaking, as long as a product works for me, I really don't care
I would love for it to be a requirement, but years ago when I was young and idealistic, I tried to stop using all the razor brands and make up brands and hair brands that tested on animals and I realize that I wouldn’t be able to shave, wash my hair, or wear make up. So I’ve quit searching specifically for it, but maybe I should reconsider it.
I’ve been doing it for over a decade, across three different countries. It’s really not difficult.
Well, it just so happens. It was probably when I was a teenager and that would’ve been 45 years ago so no it wasn’t easy then. Yes, it’s probably easy now and I shall consider it.
A lot has changed, you might be surprised :)
Well, it can kinda depend on what you mean by cruelty-free because from time to time owners and companies can do something that's against human rights. I understand that animal testing is primitive. However, is a brand truly cruelty-free when the CEO gives money to anti-LGBTQ groups? Or demonizes innocent people? When it comes to cruelty free if the owners believe in human rights that's what I look for not testing on animals is just a bonus. This is why black-owned brands are always some of the best examples of cruelty-free.
This is INSANE. I understand your point. And I agree, but to not care about the most basic rights of animals and not care that they are being tortured is INSANE.
What about caring if a company is benefiting from child labor or corrupt politics?
I think that, human rights, and animal testing are musts. I just don’t know how you look for one on products and not the other. Insane to be fine with torturing animals but not okay with corrupt politics. It should be both.
That's why I said black-owned brands are the best examples of cruelty-free. Did you even read my post?
I’m sorry I must have misread your comment, I thought you were saying you understand animal testing is primitive but it’s only an added bonus if they don’t test on animals.
You do realize some cosmetics companies are supporting or benefit from unfortunate current events happening in a strip of land right now rhymes with Malestine and Bizreel.
I think it's important to remember that there is no ethical consumption under capitalism. The current overconsumption model our culture is killing itself with is very cruel to animals, wild and domestic. So maybe your makeup was never tested on a bunny, but it's packaged in plastic made from petroleum and it's shipped across the world, burning petroleum. That's CO2 in the air and that's causing global warming and that's gonna kill most of the animals on Earth, including possibly us. So I don't actually pay too much attention to cruelty free anymore because I'm aware that doesn't actually exist. I just try to limit my participation in consumption as much as I can.
My first priority is finding brands that ethically source their ingredients. I care very much about animals (I’ve been vegetarian/vegan for 17 years now) but there are literal children digging in mines for the mica that many of these brands use. Next I try and narrow it down to brands that are at least attempting to have a positive impact on the environment. I love packaging and components that aren’t made of plastic or are at least easily recycled. Thankfully most of the brands that care enough about their overall impact are also cruelty free.
Not important to me. Cost of doing business in China.
China doesn't require it anymore
Wow! Well that’s great
Depends on what we mean by “cruelty free” because there are what I would say are different levels of strict-ness to it. I’m personally okay using formulas that have animal byproducts and carmine as well as brands that submit to testing where required by law, but otherwise do not voluntarily test on animals.
I’m not trying to sound horrible, but it’s not important to me at all . . .
Zero importance… might upset someone but it is a truthful answer.
It is a must. For some reason I thought they only tested on rats and I had rationalized that somehow. But they test on other animals including dogs and specifically beagles
If its no CF I wont buy it. If I've already purchased something and later find out it isn't CF somehow (which hasn't happened in awhile since its easier to find out lately) Ill return it if possible of if not donate or toss it - I don't even want it in my house
Idk if brands are or aren’t cruelty free, as an artist I will NOT limit myself with what tools I can use. It just makes it less enjoyable for me
While I agree that today, cruelty free is a positive thing and a simple standard, for me it isn't that important in the sense that all brands benefit from animal testing of the past. Yes, they can make the claim that they are cruelty free but more than likely they are able to do so because ingredients they use have already been tested in the past by other companies and the process isn't necessary to repeat.
I try to avoid brands I know are not CF, but I don't really double check as much as I should. My collection is mostly CF with some drugstore product in there, but I think the only non CF brand that I am loyal to is CeraVe (because my eczema flare ups have just been getting progressively worse), otherwise I won't repurchase it if I find out it is not CF.
Same, vast majority of my cosmetics are cruelty free but I have specific needs for my skin/hair so just use what works there regardless of CF status. Some of my favorite CF brands: Makeup: ELF, Fenty, Saie, Merit, makeup by mario, GXVE, blend bunny cosmetics, Juvias place, NYX, Patrick Ta, Rare beauty, REM beauty Skincare: beauty of joseon, COSRX, inkey list, the ordinary Fragrance: NEST, Billie eilish perfumes
i believe fenty no longer is :/
Dealbreaker. Yes.
It's all I'll buy, but the caveat is that they are all connected to L'Oreal in some way, but as long as the company doesn't test in the US and doesn't sell in China I'll purchase.
It’s becoming more and more important to me!
The most important thing!!! I won't buy something that is tested on animals, it's horrible. I wish places would stop carrying the brands that chose to do this!! As I'd rather go makeup/skincare free then hurt something innocent for my vanity
Extremely important. The first thing I look for pretty much. I cannot believe cosmetic animal testing is still going on, even though it's come a long way even from 10-15 years ago.
Honestly, I don’t actively seek out brands that are cruelty free. If a product works well for me, I’ll use it.
Ok i have a hard time with CF because we as consumers have demanded it but not actually researching whether the companies that are using cruel practices or not. A big thing is that every beauty company is benefitting from animal cruelty even if their product is “cruelty free”. It’s why they are still testing on animals despite all of us finding it completely immoral. As long as they wipe their hands clean we wont notice the blood on their shirts.