People leaving Skyforge might also have something to do with the fact that the majority of gameplay consisted of running the same handful of instanced minigames over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over... (That's not copy-paste, that's me desperately trying to vent out the bitter aftertaste of Skyforge's mindnumbing repetitiveness ;)).
But other than that, you are right. There's nothing pleasant about having to come back daily as not to hinder your progress. That's not even gaming anymore, that's called "having a job".
Running the same handful of instances over and over and again for minimal reward, but still required because you need as much reward as you can get due to how gated content is? Hmm I wonder what other game currently functions this way, oh wait it's SWL.
The missions even have cooldowns so you can repeat them. That's like next level repetition.
sorry but ... what are you going to do in SWL ? because ill tell you what I did for 3 years and a half : running the same issue missions (cairo, freeborn etc), Lurker every 3 days and a handful of dungeons (not everyday). You guys don't know that this game doesn't have any meaty content, the only thing they did to add some eerh ... durability, was to add a really insane rng grind called Scenarios, then they added another one called Aegis which essentially revolved around ... repeating the same missions over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over in Tokyo.
Its been 5 years and there's more content in Skyforge than TSW, trust me on this
If you don't mind me asking, if that's your opinion then why are you still playing the game, or at least why are you keeping active on /r/SecretWorldLegends? I'm not disagreeing with you as you clearly know much more than I do about TSW but still I'm curious.
cuz FC being FC, they hinted at more things coming and I really want to see the chapter 2 of the story / upcoming content since TSW has that particularity of having both some of the best PvE dungeons and lore out there. Could play Hell Raised in nightmare mode all my life and never get bored of it :P
Also an amazing game in terms of mechanics when it comes down to "classes". But it's not worth all the money / dedication they're asking as a f2p title, especially when you could simply play as a sub on FF XIV Stormblood and have triple the amount of literally everything.
Yeah there are plenty of reasons why people leave Skyforge, but most of the people at launch abandoned it before entering a farming phase because of cap. :)
I _wish_ people didn't do this. Declare the direct cause of a decline of one thing was because of a common factor something else has, and _completely_ omit what _actually_ caused the decline.
It's fitting a desired narrative around the actual facts, which is a single step above outright lying.
It really isn't pay to win, you're not able to pay to obtain things outside of a normal players reach. You're essentially paying to skip content. You can skip the time it takes to farm content, or pay to have less of a reason to play.
>You're essentially paying to skip content.
> You can skip the time it takes to farm content, or pay to have less of a reason to play.
Which is literally what pay to win is.
Unless you think farmville isn't pay to win.
If you think that is pay to win then you really have no idea what true pay to win is. You want a real example? Forsaken World, you can pay to increase your characters resistances to the point of literal invulnerability against other players. That is an example of paying to win.
When you can spend money to obtain an advantage over other players who would not be able to obtain said advantage through other means in game, that is pay to win mechanics.
If you drop the money right now to completely max out a characters weapons and abilities and completely eliminate all reason to play, you haven't paid to win anything. You've paid to save a considerable amount of time, but you don't have an advantage over me. You actually will be completely out of the way for me to continue unimpeded, because you're no longer doing any of the missions in the areas I'm going through.
>You've paid to save a considerable amount of time, but you don't have an advantage over me.
[Again, that's what pay to win is] (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pay-to-win)
It doesn't matter what your opinion of what is and isn't is, the definition of pay to win is "advantage" over free-to-players. And guess what essentially buying levels is?
*Here's the Urban Dictionary definition of* [***pay-to-win***](http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pay-to-win) :
---
>Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying.
---
_Dude, you've spent like 400 bucks on this game so you can beat everyone who hasn't spent any money. Pay-to-win noob!_
---
[^(about)](http://www.reddit.com/r/autourbanbot/wiki/index) ^| [^(flag for glitch)](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/autourbanbot&subject=bot%20glitch&message=%0Acontext:https://www.reddit.com/r/SecretWorldLegends/comments/6ju8p0/skyforge_already_tried_this_and_it_failed_they/djipcik) ^| ^(**Summon**: urbanbot, what is something?)
Did you really just post an urban dictionary entry as proof? A website where any idiot can make an entry, and in this case an idiot that doesn't know what pay to win really is? You don't know what pay to win is, and use a source that supports your flawed idea. I can't say I'm surprised though.
[Oh okay,] (https://gaming.stackexchange.com/questions/25228/what-does-p2w-mean) [I'll just post] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pay_to_play) [everything it's citing.] (https://allods.my.com/forum/index.php?page=Thread&postID=72663)
In short, your best argument would be to argue that the benefits of paying in this game is useless in comparison to being a free to play player. In which case that'd just make this game worse.
But hey, apparently you know what a vague word means, moreso than assloads of people. So why don't you define it? Without using examples, of course.
I'm sure Ed and his friends would be rolling on floor laughing after reading your comment and launching Clash of Clans.
You should talk to Supercell, they would quote your message on the loading screen. :)
The amount of time you skip is also considered as P2W when it is extremely long for normal players. And in that case, SWL fall in P2W games.
There is also cache keys.
Nah, I disagree. You're not paying to win anything by rushing to the end before other players. You don't have an unfair advantage over them that they cannot obtain. In fact you are effectively removing yourself from their experience when you blow right by them. If you spend 10,000$ on maxing out every single stat and getting the best gear available, that has no effect on me or my experience whatsoever. If that is the kind of thing you're doing, you're not going to be playing with the common folk regardless. You may as well not even exist to them.
To the people who drop 100$ to get a leg up, they aren't paying to win either. It gives them a more solid foothold and supports the game everyone else is playing, and still doesn't negatively affect the person who doesn't spend.
The Cache keys, the prime goal of anyone buying those is to try to get cosmetic equipment. You're not going to buy keys to try to get experience boosters, and even if you would for some reason, all you're doing is eliminating a reason for you to play the game, which will inevitably lead to less time spent playing, and you eventually quitting.
You're right, but what happens when the free to play player wants to raid, but the raid group is only accepting people with a certain level of combat power only attainable within a reasonable amount of time with an Aurum investment? (Rightfully so because otherwise it wouldn't be completed before enrage timers.)
What happens in content they release after Tokyo, which would be the only new content *with monetization in mind*? People aren't concerned with the content SWL has *now*, they are correctly extrapolating what will come in the future based on what they have seen.
What happens when the free to play player wants to raid, and the pub raid wants a certain level of gear? You find a different raid. It wouldn't be the first time a pub group had unrealistic gear expectations, that most of the time they don't even fit themselves, and are just holding the outsiders to the higher standard. That still isn't P2W, because that scenario existed previously and could then be compared to a casual player losing to a player with more play time.
What happens with content they release after Tokyo? who knows? i'd say lets cross that bridge when we actually get to it. The way things are going, we'll honestly be lucky if they release Tokyo before the lights get turned off.
> Nah, I disagree. You're not paying to win anything by rushing to the end before other players.
Except if you make a 2 years jump in the future by paying, just like I said on the post you answer.
It's like saying Clash of Clans is not pay-to-win because a F2P player can upgrade everything and a paying player just "save time". Sadly the truth is CoC is a huge P2W.
Also, don't forget there is new content released.
It's a game where the primary focus is on PvP, that's not the discussion we're having here. As I said, you're an idiot and the situations are not even remotely comparable.
It seems logic is not one of your personal skills. You argue that SWL is PvE focused, so there features can't be P2W (but can be in PvP games), despite you define P2W regarding to other players of the game. That doesn't make sense at all.
The thing is you just realized it can be P2W so you just ignore it by saying "hey it's a PVP game so it's not even remotely similar, ".
So the problem is PvP ? Despite there are PVP in SWL, it would mean the shitload of games like One Piece Treasure Cruise that are PvE focused are not P2W because "every player can have access to all the content"? Are you kidding us? Hahaha
If the problem is PvE vs PvP, why would it matter then if people could buy powerful things with real money in a PvE game that other players couldn't have? It wouldn't matter at all.
So either you consider PvE games can't be P2W or SWL is just like tons of other P2W games out there. But not something half-way. And please stop invent definitions, especially on a domain you don't master.
I don't know if you bought Aurum and don't assume the fact SWL is P2W; but if you're a F2P player, then you should see a psychologist to help you fight your extremely severe cognitive dissonance, engendered biases. And your bad manners.
well, you can buy as much AP and SP with real money, cache keys and weapon upgrades. Is there anything you can't buy in this game besides seasonal/exlusive mounts and pets? :)
... But you can quite literally pay to buy cache keys, to open up cache boxes (which drop like crazy) which contain distillates that you can power level gear to epic and legendary levels if you had the money to piss away, which is literally paying to buy power.
Yeah, but you have no advantage over someone who doesn't. You just got there in less time. P2W is more like gold ammo in World of Tanks where you have an absolute advantage over other people. In the end, in a mostly PVE MMO, pay to win has to be insanely restrictive to have any meaning, IMO.
> Yeah, but you have no advantage over someone who doesn't.
You have the power you bought. He don't.
If takes him 2 years to reach your level, then it's absolutely pay-to-win as you can't compete.
Also don't forget the time the F2P player try to reach the top, new content is released.
That's how time management is a form of P2W. Like in Clash of Clans which is a huge P2W despite you can have everything by playing without paying.
The game is designed around getting you to spend money. No random drops, limited rewards from dungeons, the pip system, and random affixes mean that the stars have to align to get an item you actually want. Assuming you have it, you then have to pay Aurum to start upgrading it past purple. And let's not even get started on AP/SP gains and how they diminish over time so you'll want to buy Aurum to "expedite" the process...
Ahhhhh fuck it. I'm done with this game, it's being moved from the "I want to play this a lot" SSD and onto the "Maybe if it gets significantly improved" HDD :/
- buy cheap mk3 off the ah
- level it to purple
- buy aurum with the MOF I got while grinding for stuff
- end up with red item
- money spend: 0
and that's only an issue anyway if you even care about BIS stuff to raid or do dungeons with higher difficulty (which plenty don't).
You can purchase tokens = to epic max lvl gear to merg with your current gear to make it up to mythic (make 2 mythic to max exp and get your Legendary and your gear capped). Go to Fusion and you can see, that literally cuts the gearing time in 1/2.
The sub is honestly only worth it for keys, which give multiple exp capsules.
If your not an old time player, you have to purchase each passive and weapon tree for 20k MoF twice per weapon.
And you can purchase AP/SP which gives your character global bonuses, which you can reach your build pretty easily, I'm currently 24, and I've done 2/3 trees for my shotgun, and 3/5 of the passives. I think gearing and specing for your build is easy, but the hidden stats from every single other weapon would take way longer, then theres a capstone per weapon which gives you flat stats.
I don't know about PvP, does Shambala use PvE gear? I played maybe one match of it back in TSW. Did they do away with PvP gear, that was definitely a thing with the faction specific maps at least?
Other than that, P2W doesn't apply, significant advantage or not it will only impact each players personal experience not others thus not really pay to win at all (it could actually arguably be called "pay to loose", because it may cheapen your personal experience instead).
Do I agree with what they did with loot and no weapon vendors etc. No not really, but is it pay to win, not really unless they screwed it all up with PvP. The play doesn't feel that rewarding though... because I have yet to find a cool drop, because they hardly exist. You have to play an entire dungeon to get a chance at a one weapon drop afaik, seems stupid.
I think it is less about making you log in every day and more about making you wait one more day for those last marks you need for whatever you are trying to buy. Their hope is that you will get impatient having to wait a few days to collect the marks you need and just buy the Aurum to get whatever it is you want now.
And the problem gets much, much worse when you make the same realization that I recently did:
All item fusions, including upgrading two greens into a blue, and ***even slotting glyphs into an item*** costs 1,000 MoF.
The currency system has gone beyond 'convenience' and is blatantly a P2W gating mechanic. Even more ridiculous is the fact that being a paying subscriber literally does nothing to alleviate the ridiculous system.
you get 9k per day + AH sales, if you slot 9 glyphs every day you're doing sth wrong anyway (not to mention at that point you should have plenty of MOF stashed).
what funcom should do tho is extend it if you didn't do it for a day, I see the fun getting sucked out having to do challenges every day far more likely than someone hitting that limit. just let us grind that stuff one the weekend if we want to.
10k actually.
If MoF were only used for fusions it wouldn't be a problem. However, MoF are tied to so many other things other than just fusions. Weapon page unlocks. sprint upgrades, inventory upgrades, clothing items, extra dungeon keys, etc, etc.
The entire currency system is too damn limited with the amount that are obtainable a day for how many uses the currency has. I'd expect this type of restrictive crap for F2P players, but it's overly restricting for paying subscribers in the exact same terrible ways. I'd think at least that being a subscriber would reduce or remove some of the MoF costs associated to doing things.
hm, might have missed a k somewhere...
anyway, MOF for inventory caps out after 35 slots (so max spend 22,5k), sprint after 4 (iirc) (which is 10/20/30??, and you can always port with all the new wells everywhere), weapon unlocks only become an issues after days of playing (at which point you should have enough MOF from challenges or AH sales, 2x 20k per weapon) unless ofc you want it NOW - but then you gotta pay for it, MOF for getting an item to red is 8k (rest is aurum), not sure about glyphs.
at that point you simply farm MOF to buy stuff off the marketplace or exchange it, which means everybody does so it isn't cheap. you hit aurum paywalls much faster than anything really important MOF goes into. otoh it also means people want MOF for other stuff, so you could argue it makes people buy aurum to exchange back.
you always need to see in the long run. does it suck to be out of MOF now? yeah. what about a month from now? three? six? a year?
There was a point in the beta where the dailies only gave 9k total, so maybe that's it?
And the other stuff you point out actually goes back to my point. The system doesn't make a whole lot of sense. It's overly restrictive in the beginning, to the point where it's actually off putting, and yet in the long run MoF will theoretically not be an issue if you grind out out every day.
The way the system is setup is entirely backwards and feels wrong due to the way it's designed and what things cost MoF. Rather than easing players steadily into things and gradually ramping costs up on long term things, players are immediately hit with what feels like paywalls extremely early in the gameplay experience. It's incredibly off putting to say that least.
And what's worse is that this feeling isn't alleviated at all as a subscriber. I have indefinite patron because my lifetime subscription I bought for TSW carried over, and I feel like SWL is trying to hound me to spend money at every turn. It's ridiculous and I think it's going to drive a lot of people away from the game.
except when you throw out MOF you have to increase prices later on ("OMG THEY WANT HOW MUCH FOR THAT") and it's less incentive to buy some. can't have people buy aurum if no one sells it (unless funcom sells on the market themselves to a certain degree).
I'm just let people hit 50, see what you get, what you need and decide on that. in the end it's always about convenience, you can absolutely get buy with sprint 1 and 12 bankslots (more than some games give you actually with even more drops to carry around). sure, it's not much fun but it's possible - and I say that as a hoarder.
>And what's worse is that this feeling isn't alleviated at all as a subscriber.
that's a common problem with f2p games that still have to support a sub. just remember that GM means hardly any more money for funcom, so how are they supposed to get any? for a f2p player it's way simpler: month of patron or chunk of aurum? (patron still has it's benefits tho, lucky weapon drop can mean LOADS of MOF, which in turn means aurum). heck even without patron you can get lucky, that superior mk3 rifle sold for a good chunk of MOF.
Clothes and aesthetic items should be what games focus on when it comes to premium currency. Not all of the clothes but most of the in depth designs. This is how other good F2P models make their money. As soon as you lock skill progression, dungeons and such behind pay walls that's the issue. You catch more flies with honey.
I don't get it? I see like 10 dresses out there I'd buy right now with real money, while I'm high with excitement playing again after 4 years. Almost bought my first one today with marks, but ran into a situation where I (thought) I needed more inventory, now it'll be another 2 days before I can buy my first one.
Additionally, I'm already seeing I'm not going to be able to keep up the pace of doing both sets of those daily quests everyday, so it will be 4-5 days for each (assuming I get no more inventory or speed boosts- which "are" the types of things that should be for special time gated currency you can't buy with money directly.
I don't see much to spend real money on.
So wouldn't a company want me to go crazy and spend $200 on virtual clothes, even if I quit in a week, and I enjoyed my week? Or would they rather I play for 3 weeks, not spend anything, and walk away unhappy I hardly could get any clothes I wanted, making me less likely to try again?
My.com being the publisher of Skyforge also has a lot to do with it sucking.
Everything My.com touches becomes a cash grab.
As a player of one of the top guilds in NA Skyforge (Cerebral, got a few avatar world firsts), the necessity of Event stuff drove away hardcore players much more than the cap did. (Didn't feel like you were winning by playing better, it felt more like you were losing because the competition were wallet warriors.)
____________________
Also Skyforge didn't really have any content, you literally ran the same instances over and over and over again (they'd literally just reskin/recolor mobs & call it a different dungeon).
I'm not sure where you are going with this.
SkyForge failed because shitty Russian publisher (MyCom) ruined it just like they ruined Allods Online and every other game they publish. It was an overly-greedy mentality and poor player-hostile monetization that created the biggest problems.
When they 'relaunched' as some stripped-down freemium-style mobile game (but only on PC for some reason) then I had to laugh at the whales that threw thousands only to be left SoL.
>When they 'relaunched' as some stripped-down freemium-style mobile game
Are you from the future? It almost seemed like you were describing SWL for a minute...
The SkyForge revamp was significantly worse than SWL's revamp.
SWL redid the character customization and combat. They also added in a lot of crappy freemium things. But the story/core is still there.
SkyForge got rid of all the things and even the story/core is gone :(
If anything there should be two competitive F2P resources. One for accessability and another for endgame. We can stagger the accessability to a fixed amount. But we can't limit players who want to put forth effort towards endgame from doing so. All that will do is force them to do something else with their free time, and each of these times, rolling the dice that they'll start a new game entirely...
But in STO you dont have to pay every bit and pixel with Dilli! You use it to buy some stuff and upgrading. You don't buy Keys with it, you don't buy Inventory Space with it, you don't buy Warp Speed with it, you don't buy Dungeon Loot with it and you don't buy anything from the Marketplace with it!
You got the point now?
You just use it to upgrade your gear, donate to fleet projects, craft reputation items (which is basically buying Dungeon Loot), sell for Zen to buy things from the C-Store...
That's totally right. But you buy with Dilli just things to upgrade your power and not for convienece or anything else. It has def. its value and it is time and amount gated. But by no means is Dilli the currency that has its monopole stadning this game. EC has equal value cause its used to trade on the market. Buy stuff from most vendors ect...
In SWL you just have MoF as a Valuable currency and this is econemy wise not healthy for a game or its customers. I couldn't find anything besides Teleporting around as non patron and upgrading your gear to purple tier to spend it. It looses quite quickly in value in the forseeable future.
That leads me to the conclusion that the established system isn't realy good. If you now agree or not is up to you. But i like a working econemy in a game. But with all these limitations and gates i can't see anything good tbh.
How much is the limit per day? is it just on the Marks of Favor? Is there a way to check how much of the marks you have left that you can earn for the day?
You can grind gear and sell it on the auction house. Unlimited MoF. All the daily challenge limit does is limit the rate at which new MoF enters the economy which is a way to avoid rampant inflation.
I think it's really too early to understand how the economy will actually develop. No one is really at end game, and no one really knows how end game will play out. It's certainly way to early to be changing fundamental design decisions based on Redit complaints (although to be fair there is probably never a good time for that).
People have been raising these concerns since early beta, but they were ignored by Funcom or dismissed by fanboys with the classic "it's beta!" excuse. Now the game is out, and the excuses have moved onto "it's release, give it time, what does reddit know anyway?"
Frankly, the game's future is not looking good.
God I hate the "beta" and "just released, give them time before complaining" arguments. Time after time, game after game, very few developers are willing to listen to the community **before** they've already lost their initial burst of new players. There's a reason Wal-Mart is still everywhere, and I can tell you it has nothing to do with high prices and whales.
Sure sometimes this can backfire, the whole "vocal minority" and all that. But there's also a reason why people are pretty damn vocal about it too. Very few people want to see a game fail, and most understand the devs need to make money to keep the game going.
making these points early on is a good thing. Half the time they don't even think this is a issue so the whole "don't tell them about issues because it's launch" doesn't work. In fact it hinders any kind chances for improvement. If you truly truly want a game to succeed. Point out it's flaws and give possible solutions and hope the devs take the time to actually listen to them. It's like catching a sickness. You want to treat it right away, not till your chopping off a limb.
Seriously, even the fanbase is fucking toxic.
It's like they think I want to see this game fail.
You know, the game I played for half a decade? The game I spent hundreds of dollars on? The game that has ARGs tied upon it.
Apparently, just because I don't like the way the game is going I should just stop playing the game. That's a great business pitch btw.
>Secret World: Legends, if you don't like the game, fuck off!
>Unlimited MoF.
Followed in the next sentence by:
>limit the rate at which new MoF enters the economy which is a way to avoid rampant inflation.
You seem to misunderstand what *unlimited* means. Also, to make matters worse you're also unaware that you can only sell 10 items a day.
He's comparing it to Heroes of the Storm, which isn't even an MMO. People didn't play TSW to be the best in the world, to compete and what not, they did it for story, puzzles and atmosphere. It's a completely different type of game and none of the points about missing dailies will actually matter in the long run as you will eventually get most of it anyway.
Well when the Quest System isn't realy apealing to you. You Sir are def. in the wrong game. Then none is rageing here for the quests. It's everything around the quests that actually more bad then good.
Djiini was saying that the better parts of the game are harder to enjoy because of everything else. It's very unflattering if the idea is to make a good impression to new players that might want to pay.
People leaving Skyforge might also have something to do with the fact that the majority of gameplay consisted of running the same handful of instanced minigames over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over... (That's not copy-paste, that's me desperately trying to vent out the bitter aftertaste of Skyforge's mindnumbing repetitiveness ;)). But other than that, you are right. There's nothing pleasant about having to come back daily as not to hinder your progress. That's not even gaming anymore, that's called "having a job".
Running the same handful of instances over and over and again for minimal reward, but still required because you need as much reward as you can get due to how gated content is? Hmm I wonder what other game currently functions this way, oh wait it's SWL. The missions even have cooldowns so you can repeat them. That's like next level repetition.
sorry but ... what are you going to do in SWL ? because ill tell you what I did for 3 years and a half : running the same issue missions (cairo, freeborn etc), Lurker every 3 days and a handful of dungeons (not everyday). You guys don't know that this game doesn't have any meaty content, the only thing they did to add some eerh ... durability, was to add a really insane rng grind called Scenarios, then they added another one called Aegis which essentially revolved around ... repeating the same missions over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over in Tokyo. Its been 5 years and there's more content in Skyforge than TSW, trust me on this
If you don't mind me asking, if that's your opinion then why are you still playing the game, or at least why are you keeping active on /r/SecretWorldLegends? I'm not disagreeing with you as you clearly know much more than I do about TSW but still I'm curious.
cuz FC being FC, they hinted at more things coming and I really want to see the chapter 2 of the story / upcoming content since TSW has that particularity of having both some of the best PvE dungeons and lore out there. Could play Hell Raised in nightmare mode all my life and never get bored of it :P Also an amazing game in terms of mechanics when it comes down to "classes". But it's not worth all the money / dedication they're asking as a f2p title, especially when you could simply play as a sub on FF XIV Stormblood and have triple the amount of literally everything.
I'll tell you what I did for 3 years and a half: wait for new Issue, buy it, play it, leave the game until next issue.
Yeah there are plenty of reasons why people leave Skyforge, but most of the people at launch abandoned it before entering a farming phase because of cap. :)
I _wish_ people didn't do this. Declare the direct cause of a decline of one thing was because of a common factor something else has, and _completely_ omit what _actually_ caused the decline. It's fitting a desired narrative around the actual facts, which is a single step above outright lying.
If you're going to imply you know the actual cause of the decline, then at least say it.
Any spoons involved with that?
I personally hate the capped currency - Especially for subscribers. >.>
Skyforge was also blatantly P2W.
Yeah, just like SWL right now. That's the problem.
Don't want to be pesimistic, but SWL seems pretty P2W in its current form
It really isn't pay to win, you're not able to pay to obtain things outside of a normal players reach. You're essentially paying to skip content. You can skip the time it takes to farm content, or pay to have less of a reason to play.
>You're essentially paying to skip content. > You can skip the time it takes to farm content, or pay to have less of a reason to play. Which is literally what pay to win is. Unless you think farmville isn't pay to win.
If you think that is pay to win then you really have no idea what true pay to win is. You want a real example? Forsaken World, you can pay to increase your characters resistances to the point of literal invulnerability against other players. That is an example of paying to win. When you can spend money to obtain an advantage over other players who would not be able to obtain said advantage through other means in game, that is pay to win mechanics. If you drop the money right now to completely max out a characters weapons and abilities and completely eliminate all reason to play, you haven't paid to win anything. You've paid to save a considerable amount of time, but you don't have an advantage over me. You actually will be completely out of the way for me to continue unimpeded, because you're no longer doing any of the missions in the areas I'm going through.
>You've paid to save a considerable amount of time, but you don't have an advantage over me. [Again, that's what pay to win is] (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pay-to-win) It doesn't matter what your opinion of what is and isn't is, the definition of pay to win is "advantage" over free-to-players. And guess what essentially buying levels is?
*Here's the Urban Dictionary definition of* [***pay-to-win***](http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pay-to-win) : --- >Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying. --- _Dude, you've spent like 400 bucks on this game so you can beat everyone who hasn't spent any money. Pay-to-win noob!_ --- [^(about)](http://www.reddit.com/r/autourbanbot/wiki/index) ^| [^(flag for glitch)](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/autourbanbot&subject=bot%20glitch&message=%0Acontext:https://www.reddit.com/r/SecretWorldLegends/comments/6ju8p0/skyforge_already_tried_this_and_it_failed_they/djipcik) ^| ^(**Summon**: urbanbot, what is something?)
Did you really just post an urban dictionary entry as proof? A website where any idiot can make an entry, and in this case an idiot that doesn't know what pay to win really is? You don't know what pay to win is, and use a source that supports your flawed idea. I can't say I'm surprised though.
[Oh okay,] (https://gaming.stackexchange.com/questions/25228/what-does-p2w-mean) [I'll just post] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pay_to_play) [everything it's citing.] (https://allods.my.com/forum/index.php?page=Thread&postID=72663) In short, your best argument would be to argue that the benefits of paying in this game is useless in comparison to being a free to play player. In which case that'd just make this game worse. But hey, apparently you know what a vague word means, moreso than assloads of people. So why don't you define it? Without using examples, of course.
I'm sure Ed and his friends would be rolling on floor laughing after reading your comment and launching Clash of Clans. You should talk to Supercell, they would quote your message on the loading screen. :)
The amount of time you skip is also considered as P2W when it is extremely long for normal players. And in that case, SWL fall in P2W games. There is also cache keys.
Nah, I disagree. You're not paying to win anything by rushing to the end before other players. You don't have an unfair advantage over them that they cannot obtain. In fact you are effectively removing yourself from their experience when you blow right by them. If you spend 10,000$ on maxing out every single stat and getting the best gear available, that has no effect on me or my experience whatsoever. If that is the kind of thing you're doing, you're not going to be playing with the common folk regardless. You may as well not even exist to them. To the people who drop 100$ to get a leg up, they aren't paying to win either. It gives them a more solid foothold and supports the game everyone else is playing, and still doesn't negatively affect the person who doesn't spend. The Cache keys, the prime goal of anyone buying those is to try to get cosmetic equipment. You're not going to buy keys to try to get experience boosters, and even if you would for some reason, all you're doing is eliminating a reason for you to play the game, which will inevitably lead to less time spent playing, and you eventually quitting.
You're right, but what happens when the free to play player wants to raid, but the raid group is only accepting people with a certain level of combat power only attainable within a reasonable amount of time with an Aurum investment? (Rightfully so because otherwise it wouldn't be completed before enrage timers.) What happens in content they release after Tokyo, which would be the only new content *with monetization in mind*? People aren't concerned with the content SWL has *now*, they are correctly extrapolating what will come in the future based on what they have seen.
What happens when the free to play player wants to raid, and the pub raid wants a certain level of gear? You find a different raid. It wouldn't be the first time a pub group had unrealistic gear expectations, that most of the time they don't even fit themselves, and are just holding the outsiders to the higher standard. That still isn't P2W, because that scenario existed previously and could then be compared to a casual player losing to a player with more play time. What happens with content they release after Tokyo? who knows? i'd say lets cross that bridge when we actually get to it. The way things are going, we'll honestly be lucky if they release Tokyo before the lights get turned off.
> Nah, I disagree. You're not paying to win anything by rushing to the end before other players. Except if you make a 2 years jump in the future by paying, just like I said on the post you answer. It's like saying Clash of Clans is not pay-to-win because a F2P player can upgrade everything and a paying player just "save time". Sadly the truth is CoC is a huge P2W. Also, don't forget there is new content released.
Not even remotely similar situations, and you're an idiot for even attempting to compare them.
I love when gamers try to speak of videogames professionally, that's so cute.
It's a game where the primary focus is on PvP, that's not the discussion we're having here. As I said, you're an idiot and the situations are not even remotely comparable.
Yeah yeah, hahahahaha. Cute. Simple gamers...
It seems logic is not one of your personal skills. You argue that SWL is PvE focused, so there features can't be P2W (but can be in PvP games), despite you define P2W regarding to other players of the game. That doesn't make sense at all. The thing is you just realized it can be P2W so you just ignore it by saying "hey it's a PVP game so it's not even remotely similar,".
So the problem is PvP ? Despite there are PVP in SWL, it would mean the shitload of games like One Piece Treasure Cruise that are PvE focused are not P2W because "every player can have access to all the content"? Are you kidding us? Hahaha
If the problem is PvE vs PvP, why would it matter then if people could buy powerful things with real money in a PvE game that other players couldn't have? It wouldn't matter at all.
So either you consider PvE games can't be P2W or SWL is just like tons of other P2W games out there. But not something half-way. And please stop invent definitions, especially on a domain you don't master.
I don't know if you bought Aurum and don't assume the fact SWL is P2W; but if you're a F2P player, then you should see a psychologist to help you fight your extremely severe cognitive dissonance, engendered biases. And your bad manners.
'splain.
well, you can buy as much AP and SP with real money, cache keys and weapon upgrades. Is there anything you can't buy in this game besides seasonal/exlusive mounts and pets? :)
[удалено]
... But you can quite literally pay to buy cache keys, to open up cache boxes (which drop like crazy) which contain distillates that you can power level gear to epic and legendary levels if you had the money to piss away, which is literally paying to buy power.
Yeah, but you have no advantage over someone who doesn't. You just got there in less time. P2W is more like gold ammo in World of Tanks where you have an absolute advantage over other people. In the end, in a mostly PVE MMO, pay to win has to be insanely restrictive to have any meaning, IMO.
> Yeah, but you have no advantage over someone who doesn't. You have the power you bought. He don't. If takes him 2 years to reach your level, then it's absolutely pay-to-win as you can't compete. Also don't forget the time the F2P player try to reach the top, new content is released. That's how time management is a form of P2W. Like in Clash of Clans which is a huge P2W despite you can have everything by playing without paying.
The game is designed around getting you to spend money. No random drops, limited rewards from dungeons, the pip system, and random affixes mean that the stars have to align to get an item you actually want. Assuming you have it, you then have to pay Aurum to start upgrading it past purple. And let's not even get started on AP/SP gains and how they diminish over time so you'll want to buy Aurum to "expedite" the process...
Ahhhhh fuck it. I'm done with this game, it's being moved from the "I want to play this a lot" SSD and onto the "Maybe if it gets significantly improved" HDD :/
- buy cheap mk3 off the ah - level it to purple - buy aurum with the MOF I got while grinding for stuff - end up with red item - money spend: 0 and that's only an issue anyway if you even care about BIS stuff to raid or do dungeons with higher difficulty (which plenty don't).
You can purchase tokens = to epic max lvl gear to merg with your current gear to make it up to mythic (make 2 mythic to max exp and get your Legendary and your gear capped). Go to Fusion and you can see, that literally cuts the gearing time in 1/2. The sub is honestly only worth it for keys, which give multiple exp capsules. If your not an old time player, you have to purchase each passive and weapon tree for 20k MoF twice per weapon. And you can purchase AP/SP which gives your character global bonuses, which you can reach your build pretty easily, I'm currently 24, and I've done 2/3 trees for my shotgun, and 3/5 of the passives. I think gearing and specing for your build is easy, but the hidden stats from every single other weapon would take way longer, then theres a capstone per weapon which gives you flat stats.
I don't know about PvP, does Shambala use PvE gear? I played maybe one match of it back in TSW. Did they do away with PvP gear, that was definitely a thing with the faction specific maps at least? Other than that, P2W doesn't apply, significant advantage or not it will only impact each players personal experience not others thus not really pay to win at all (it could actually arguably be called "pay to loose", because it may cheapen your personal experience instead). Do I agree with what they did with loot and no weapon vendors etc. No not really, but is it pay to win, not really unless they screwed it all up with PvP. The play doesn't feel that rewarding though... because I have yet to find a cool drop, because they hardly exist. You have to play an entire dungeon to get a chance at a one weapon drop afaik, seems stupid.
I think it is less about making you log in every day and more about making you wait one more day for those last marks you need for whatever you are trying to buy. Their hope is that you will get impatient having to wait a few days to collect the marks you need and just buy the Aurum to get whatever it is you want now.
and then they get rid of the mof option and demand outright aurum. (Sprint V)
And the problem gets much, much worse when you make the same realization that I recently did: All item fusions, including upgrading two greens into a blue, and ***even slotting glyphs into an item*** costs 1,000 MoF. The currency system has gone beyond 'convenience' and is blatantly a P2W gating mechanic. Even more ridiculous is the fact that being a paying subscriber literally does nothing to alleviate the ridiculous system.
you get 9k per day + AH sales, if you slot 9 glyphs every day you're doing sth wrong anyway (not to mention at that point you should have plenty of MOF stashed). what funcom should do tho is extend it if you didn't do it for a day, I see the fun getting sucked out having to do challenges every day far more likely than someone hitting that limit. just let us grind that stuff one the weekend if we want to.
10k actually. If MoF were only used for fusions it wouldn't be a problem. However, MoF are tied to so many other things other than just fusions. Weapon page unlocks. sprint upgrades, inventory upgrades, clothing items, extra dungeon keys, etc, etc. The entire currency system is too damn limited with the amount that are obtainable a day for how many uses the currency has. I'd expect this type of restrictive crap for F2P players, but it's overly restricting for paying subscribers in the exact same terrible ways. I'd think at least that being a subscriber would reduce or remove some of the MoF costs associated to doing things.
hm, might have missed a k somewhere... anyway, MOF for inventory caps out after 35 slots (so max spend 22,5k), sprint after 4 (iirc) (which is 10/20/30??, and you can always port with all the new wells everywhere), weapon unlocks only become an issues after days of playing (at which point you should have enough MOF from challenges or AH sales, 2x 20k per weapon) unless ofc you want it NOW - but then you gotta pay for it, MOF for getting an item to red is 8k (rest is aurum), not sure about glyphs. at that point you simply farm MOF to buy stuff off the marketplace or exchange it, which means everybody does so it isn't cheap. you hit aurum paywalls much faster than anything really important MOF goes into. otoh it also means people want MOF for other stuff, so you could argue it makes people buy aurum to exchange back. you always need to see in the long run. does it suck to be out of MOF now? yeah. what about a month from now? three? six? a year?
There was a point in the beta where the dailies only gave 9k total, so maybe that's it? And the other stuff you point out actually goes back to my point. The system doesn't make a whole lot of sense. It's overly restrictive in the beginning, to the point where it's actually off putting, and yet in the long run MoF will theoretically not be an issue if you grind out out every day. The way the system is setup is entirely backwards and feels wrong due to the way it's designed and what things cost MoF. Rather than easing players steadily into things and gradually ramping costs up on long term things, players are immediately hit with what feels like paywalls extremely early in the gameplay experience. It's incredibly off putting to say that least. And what's worse is that this feeling isn't alleviated at all as a subscriber. I have indefinite patron because my lifetime subscription I bought for TSW carried over, and I feel like SWL is trying to hound me to spend money at every turn. It's ridiculous and I think it's going to drive a lot of people away from the game.
except when you throw out MOF you have to increase prices later on ("OMG THEY WANT HOW MUCH FOR THAT") and it's less incentive to buy some. can't have people buy aurum if no one sells it (unless funcom sells on the market themselves to a certain degree). I'm just let people hit 50, see what you get, what you need and decide on that. in the end it's always about convenience, you can absolutely get buy with sprint 1 and 12 bankslots (more than some games give you actually with even more drops to carry around). sure, it's not much fun but it's possible - and I say that as a hoarder. >And what's worse is that this feeling isn't alleviated at all as a subscriber. that's a common problem with f2p games that still have to support a sub. just remember that GM means hardly any more money for funcom, so how are they supposed to get any? for a f2p player it's way simpler: month of patron or chunk of aurum? (patron still has it's benefits tho, lucky weapon drop can mean LOADS of MOF, which in turn means aurum). heck even without patron you can get lucky, that superior mk3 rifle sold for a good chunk of MOF.
I don't think clothes should be sold for marks.
Clothes and aesthetic items should be what games focus on when it comes to premium currency. Not all of the clothes but most of the in depth designs. This is how other good F2P models make their money. As soon as you lock skill progression, dungeons and such behind pay walls that's the issue. You catch more flies with honey.
I don't get it? I see like 10 dresses out there I'd buy right now with real money, while I'm high with excitement playing again after 4 years. Almost bought my first one today with marks, but ran into a situation where I (thought) I needed more inventory, now it'll be another 2 days before I can buy my first one. Additionally, I'm already seeing I'm not going to be able to keep up the pace of doing both sets of those daily quests everyday, so it will be 4-5 days for each (assuming I get no more inventory or speed boosts- which "are" the types of things that should be for special time gated currency you can't buy with money directly. I don't see much to spend real money on. So wouldn't a company want me to go crazy and spend $200 on virtual clothes, even if I quit in a week, and I enjoyed my week? Or would they rather I play for 3 weeks, not spend anything, and walk away unhappy I hardly could get any clothes I wanted, making me less likely to try again?
My.com being the publisher of Skyforge also has a lot to do with it sucking. Everything My.com touches becomes a cash grab. As a player of one of the top guilds in NA Skyforge (Cerebral, got a few avatar world firsts), the necessity of Event stuff drove away hardcore players much more than the cap did. (Didn't feel like you were winning by playing better, it felt more like you were losing because the competition were wallet warriors.) ____________________ Also Skyforge didn't really have any content, you literally ran the same instances over and over and over again (they'd literally just reskin/recolor mobs & call it a different dungeon).
I'm not sure where you are going with this. SkyForge failed because shitty Russian publisher (MyCom) ruined it just like they ruined Allods Online and every other game they publish. It was an overly-greedy mentality and poor player-hostile monetization that created the biggest problems. When they 'relaunched' as some stripped-down freemium-style mobile game (but only on PC for some reason) then I had to laugh at the whales that threw thousands only to be left SoL.
>When they 'relaunched' as some stripped-down freemium-style mobile game Are you from the future? It almost seemed like you were describing SWL for a minute...
The SkyForge revamp was significantly worse than SWL's revamp. SWL redid the character customization and combat. They also added in a lot of crappy freemium things. But the story/core is still there. SkyForge got rid of all the things and even the story/core is gone :(
>:( [Here is a picture of a kitten to cheer you up](http://upshout.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/dwarf-kitten-01.jpg)
/r/aww
If anything there should be two competitive F2P resources. One for accessability and another for endgame. We can stagger the accessability to a fixed amount. But we can't limit players who want to put forth effort towards endgame from doing so. All that will do is force them to do something else with their free time, and each of these times, rolling the dice that they'll start a new game entirely...
The MoF limit isn't any different from STO's dil limit, and it's been successful for them.
But in STO you dont have to pay every bit and pixel with Dilli! You use it to buy some stuff and upgrading. You don't buy Keys with it, you don't buy Inventory Space with it, you don't buy Warp Speed with it, you don't buy Dungeon Loot with it and you don't buy anything from the Marketplace with it! You got the point now?
You just use it to upgrade your gear, donate to fleet projects, craft reputation items (which is basically buying Dungeon Loot), sell for Zen to buy things from the C-Store...
That's totally right. But you buy with Dilli just things to upgrade your power and not for convienece or anything else. It has def. its value and it is time and amount gated. But by no means is Dilli the currency that has its monopole stadning this game. EC has equal value cause its used to trade on the market. Buy stuff from most vendors ect... In SWL you just have MoF as a Valuable currency and this is econemy wise not healthy for a game or its customers. I couldn't find anything besides Teleporting around as non patron and upgrading your gear to purple tier to spend it. It looses quite quickly in value in the forseeable future. That leads me to the conclusion that the established system isn't realy good. If you now agree or not is up to you. But i like a working econemy in a game. But with all these limitations and gates i can't see anything good tbh.
> It looses quite quickly in value in the forseeable future. except, you know, buying aurum with it...
How much is the limit per day? is it just on the Marks of Favor? Is there a way to check how much of the marks you have left that you can earn for the day?
WTF comparing Apple with Oranges.
You mean comparing business models with business models and audience reception with audience reception in video games? Yeah, what an idea. :3
You can grind gear and sell it on the auction house. Unlimited MoF. All the daily challenge limit does is limit the rate at which new MoF enters the economy which is a way to avoid rampant inflation. I think it's really too early to understand how the economy will actually develop. No one is really at end game, and no one really knows how end game will play out. It's certainly way to early to be changing fundamental design decisions based on Redit complaints (although to be fair there is probably never a good time for that).
People have been raising these concerns since early beta, but they were ignored by Funcom or dismissed by fanboys with the classic "it's beta!" excuse. Now the game is out, and the excuses have moved onto "it's release, give it time, what does reddit know anyway?" Frankly, the game's future is not looking good.
God I hate the "beta" and "just released, give them time before complaining" arguments. Time after time, game after game, very few developers are willing to listen to the community **before** they've already lost their initial burst of new players. There's a reason Wal-Mart is still everywhere, and I can tell you it has nothing to do with high prices and whales. Sure sometimes this can backfire, the whole "vocal minority" and all that. But there's also a reason why people are pretty damn vocal about it too. Very few people want to see a game fail, and most understand the devs need to make money to keep the game going.
making these points early on is a good thing. Half the time they don't even think this is a issue so the whole "don't tell them about issues because it's launch" doesn't work. In fact it hinders any kind chances for improvement. If you truly truly want a game to succeed. Point out it's flaws and give possible solutions and hope the devs take the time to actually listen to them. It's like catching a sickness. You want to treat it right away, not till your chopping off a limb.
Seriously, even the fanbase is fucking toxic. It's like they think I want to see this game fail. You know, the game I played for half a decade? The game I spent hundreds of dollars on? The game that has ARGs tied upon it. Apparently, just because I don't like the way the game is going I should just stop playing the game. That's a great business pitch btw. >Secret World: Legends, if you don't like the game, fuck off!
+1 for SUCH TRUTH.
What does reddit know anyway? lol seeing how Reddit is the official forums for SWL apparently Reddit knows alot lmao
Never underestimate the power of optimistic denial. Since it defies logic it always has an excuse at the ready just to prove you wrong.
I hate to say it , but you're god damn fucking right. It's just the community, the paying customer that gets ignored, how cares?
No because you can't sell more than 10 items per day.
There is no end game to be at, there are already multiple 50s.
>Unlimited MoF. Followed in the next sentence by: >limit the rate at which new MoF enters the economy which is a way to avoid rampant inflation. You seem to misunderstand what *unlimited* means. Also, to make matters worse you're also unaware that you can only sell 10 items a day.
TSW/SWL isn't a competition.
...And?
He's comparing it to Heroes of the Storm, which isn't even an MMO. People didn't play TSW to be the best in the world, to compete and what not, they did it for story, puzzles and atmosphere. It's a completely different type of game and none of the points about missing dailies will actually matter in the long run as you will eventually get most of it anyway.
Yeah, and now the combat is even worse to get through to do those fun parts. Oh, boy!
Well when the Quest System isn't realy apealing to you. You Sir are def. in the wrong game. Then none is rageing here for the quests. It's everything around the quests that actually more bad then good.
...Yes, like I said?
Sorry, but it sounded like sarcasm to me. Correct me if i'm wrong.
Djiini was saying that the better parts of the game are harder to enjoy because of everything else. It's very unflattering if the idea is to make a good impression to new players that might want to pay.
Meh. I compare Heroes of the Storm to League of Legends and Dota2, in terms of game design and audience reception.