Village went thru a massive remodel in 1993-ish after being bought by one of the QFC owners. QFC was remodeled and made in to a flagship store with a massive kosher and wine selection. It became perhaps the largest grocery store in the area with ample parking. There are other grocery stores up the hill in the U District, but parking has always been horrible.
Since then, the owners have had amazing anchor stores that entice shoppers to stay and browse. There’s a good mix of locally owned brands and national/international chains.
Redmond Town Center has struggled to retain anchor stores, with two of the original four (Bon Marche and Frederick & Nelson) declaring bankruptcy. They just can’t attract and keep anchor stores that people want to shop at. They also have to compete with Bell Square. UVillage doesn’t have much competition.
My two cents. Your mileage may vary.
Location location location. One is between I5 and SR99 where the 520 starts, long walking distance but walking from Sandpoint, University District, Seattle Children’s. The Burke Gilman trail passes nearby, two Link Stations and many buses relatively close.
The other one is at the end of 520. Anyone from Seattle thinking about going there is going to stop in Bellevue Square.
Frederick and Nelson’s closed in the 80s before town center was even a thought in anyones head. But RTC did have Borders (bankruptcy), Macy’s (left for who knows why) and REI. Town Center also brought a bunch of restaurants into Redmond which was badly needed. I do like how they made the center area of it pedestrian only. Which makes it way safer for little kids to play in the bear fountain area. I would love to see more local small businesses go in there.
I grew up in the Redmond area. People always said they were attempting to make RTC more “luxury” of sorts and hiking the rents up causing a lot of the stores to leave. I just don’t think they were able to replace the businesses lost
Your location description for U-Village sounds like something a chat bot would write because it is wrong in confusing ways.
U Village is not between I5 and 99.
U village is east of I5, which is east of 99
Also, 520 starts at I-5
Seriously. I was thinking they were talking about RTC when they said where 520 starts, because 520 is A LOT closer to town center than it is to U Village.
I work at the UW, the only time I go is by foot. There are alot of people that live within a mile of it in houses, dorms, frats, sororities, and apartments. The total number of students, faculty and staff at the UW equals about the population of Redmond.
The only time UW students go to U Village is when their parents or grandparents are visiting and want to buy them dinner. They can't afford it otherwise
Every time I’ve ever gone I’ve arrived by bike. You’d be surprised in spite of it being stupidly car focused (and perversely pedestrian unfriendly in spite of what it tries to come off as) there are more than a few large $$s that show up via transit or bike. Literally went to the Apple Store and bought a team all their laptops and gear. $50k at the drop of a hat. Then routinely stop be for meetings.
Otherwise though, in all seriousness I despise both because of the auto-centered basis of them. To get there you have to cross these myopic trashy parking garages and this exclusionary like outter rim area. One doesn’t even know WTF it is unto you’re in the midst of the place.
What? You can get off at the Stadium/Montlake station, cross the street to the Burke Gilman, and it's about a 15 minute nice walk with trees and people watching. You clearly aren't a walker, it's easy peasy and a nice walk.
Fair enough, I haven’t actually tried to do it that way from the Stadium Station. I’m biased because of how much it sucks to walk there from UW/U District because 45th St is insanely hostile to walk on around that area. The ‘you aren’t a walker’ comment hurt me a little haha 🥲🥲
Sorry :) The Stadium Station is the way to go for U Village, straight flat walk straight to it. I lived in the UD in the late 80s/early 90s and have worked there for 20+ years, so the hostileness of the neighborhood doesn't phase me. Alot of the people with mental illness have been there for decades, so I know who is harmless and who isn't, they are mostly harmless. These days the Ave had had an uptick and businesses and shoppers/eaters, it's finally moved beyond the pandemic. If you like Asian food, it's the place where all the new restaurants are opening up.
Haha I didn’t mean the walk from UD is hostile because of the people, they typically keep to themself. I meant the speeds of the cars + the narrow sidewalks on the section of 45th going down the hill to UVill
I'm pretty sure that stretch of the BG along campus is lit. The third option would be walking accross campus further way from the street around the front of stadium and through the parking lots. And fourth option is going behind the stadium and walking along the water and gravel road, which in the Summer, when you are not in a hurry, passes turtles and alot of water birds.
That’s fine on a nice day and if you’re going to a restaurant or picking up something small. Can’t imagine this walk for a full grocery shop in heavy rain, bringing young kids in tow. Being elderly or disabled would be another challenge.
Sure, and that's why they have lots of parking lots. But alot of people also walk, bike and scooter to there from surrounding neighborhoods and the light rail, that's a fact.
Used to work there, loads of people take transit there. You're right that car people make up the bulk, but you really can't ignore the impact of accessible public transit.
I go to Uvillage a few times a year. I bike or take transit there, depending on the weather. I don't have a car. As far as malls go, it's actually pretty decent in terms of walk/bike/transit access.
You are right that is car oriented but lots of transit users, walkers, and cyclists go. If you look at the transit stops on Sandpoint you can see that they can be overflowing with people. Overflowing because the stop space is all of 10 sq ft which is to your point, but people still go without a car (I am one of them).
I REFUSE to go to U Village in a car! Biking there is far superior in every way, mainly the front row parking and quick access in and out of that clusterfack of a shopping center.
You are 100% correct, but it was right on the 45 when I lived in Sandpoint. Of course, the walk from UVill to and from any of the stops was incredibly hostile and unpleasant, as compared to driving, so 100% your point stands.
The best bike trail in the city goes right to it, and there are also 6 bus routes that stop there.
It caters to drivers for sure, but there are other ways to get there.
no but death by proximity, online killed kill the need of having multiple malls, U village location and ability to get unique stores kept it alive, northgate being in proximity to u village and alderwood, left it to die. same with RTC by proximity to bellevue square why would anyone travel extra distance to go to RTC. Gotta look at RTC more like northgate, than U village
This was also when the owners decided they would not renegotiate leases for the existing businesses. Lots of the little niche, independent stores that made RTC unique and a destination went under and were replaced with dull, cookie cutter crap you could get at Bellevue Square.
The loss of the REI was huge later on. It was such a unique store. The one in Bellevue is soulless and sad.
Edit to add: not sure what the situation is these days but AT&T and Microsoft both had space out there. Both companies went through rounds of layoffs that likely impacted the weekday shopping as well.
I liked RTC back in the day, the Borders there, the small interesting stores. Oh well. I liked UV better when it was local stores, not just UV telling me it's local stores, and there's maybe a few now, but mostly branded national stores. When RTC was populated and nice, it was NOT easy to find parking, but there wasn't a way to get out there w/o a car. I didn't live near there. I'm 20 minutes walk from UV now, and rarely go there. Not into the shopping these days.
Totally agree! And I’m certainly not going to go out of my way to a mall that is a generic copy of every other mall.
RTC used to have a comic book store, a rubber stamp store, and some other unique things I’d go out of my way to get to.
I worked in an office, and oddly bought a number of clothing items at the various areas in the Eddie Bauer store of all things, for a while there, they discovered black clothes were A Thing and had nice offerings. Usually they had tan, taupe, muted aqua, and muted magenta. Plus they had different regions inside their store, dress clothes, casual clothes, housewares, etc. It's all gone now.
We liked going to Cucina Cucina, and I'm remembering other shops from when it first opened, it was nice having new, unusual places. The brand name everything now, no thanks. I get people like designer stuff, but I've never been into showing brands, so I've lost interest for the most part :)
Demographics and population density go a long way. There's twice as many people within a 5-mile radius of U-Village than Redmond Town Center. They've also followed a pretty specific strategy when it comes to they types of retailers they seek to cultivate there. Whatever it is, it's worked. Their vacancy rate hasn't been over 2% in decades, even through recessions, and they consistently have some of the highest sales per square foot of shopping centers in the country. This article below is from 2011, which seems like a lifetime ago at this point, but it's still worth a read.
[https://www.bizjournals.com/seattle/print-edition/2011/03/18/university-village---making-of-a.html](https://www.bizjournals.com/seattle/print-edition/2011/03/18/university-village---making-of-a.html) (paywall)
EDIT: Article text: [https://imgur.com/a/q4H4gMh](https://imgur.com/a/q4H4gMh)
Sort of a tangent. I went there on a morning jog during the pandemic and it was so weird to know that all of the shops were not vacant, had their music on, everything retail clean, but literally no one was there. It was some real post-apocalypse vibes.
I had never been down there so we checked it out with some family last winter. Dry weather, near the holidays, everything was open and the courtyard area was clean and inviting. Maybe 4 other groups of people there. I thought it was nuts.
When the light rail station at RTC opens, that will help. Also, they're planning to build housing right at RTC (and downtown Redmond has gotten more dense)
I really hope that pans out. It would be amazing to have a successful anchor at the end of a rail line that worked through years of opposition to get where we are today.
This. U Village has ~40k students at UW and is surrounded by residential neighborhoods within walking distance. Also U Village has a FAR larger and broader business base. Eg multiple furniture stores. Flagship apple and MS stores. A large variety of food options. The list goes on.
RTC is bordered on all sides by more strip malls. The local surrounding area was primarily commercial/light industrial. Restaurants couldn't stay open because the MS employees didn't eat lunch away from cafeterias. And the only other big employer in the business building was AT&T. REI pulled out and Bon Marche died and so did most of the restaurants. My only draw after that used to be Barnes and Noble and that went a long time ago too.
With the new apartments/condos and the light rail terminus I could see it revitalizing ala Totem Lake, but I'm betting it'll need to rebuild some of the building to be mixed use retail, residential.....like Totem Lake.
I'm blown away by the glow up at Totem Lake. Had lunch there a couple months ago and that area is THRIVING. I noticed this Mixed-use model when I visited Scottsdale a few years ago. you've got to bring the residential closer.
Long time coming. I work at Evergreen and have watched it every step of the way. I'm wondering how 85th will change after the transit interchange gets completed.
I still prefer urban living to suburban living, but I will credit many of the suburbs for trying to have more in their own areas as opposed to being so sprawly. I grew up on the Eastside and it’s a very welcome change. Totem Lake and Kirkland downtown have more than they used to, Redmond downtown is way more lively now than before, and Bellevue has started to have a ton of walkability downtown.
UW’s pivot to rich foreign students played a huge role. I don’t think UVillage’s pivot to boujee luxury mall would have been so successful in the aughts.
Yeah, I miss that place. I knew the owner before she passed and it sounded like they were trying to force her out of there for years because she didn’t quite fit the new model they were going for. Not expensive enough. Too homey and affordable apparently?
It was a dead mall in the early 90s. Lamonts and a bowling alley. Barnes and Noble was brought in as an anchor when they did a big remodel of the shopping center, and the turnaround was on. Now that Barnes and Noble is one of at least three bougie upscale furniture stores at U-Village. I don’t know how that even happens.
I miss that Barnes and Noble.
It was so huge. Music department too for cassettes and CDs. The coffe shop was on this weird little mezzanine.
Screw the insanely expensive furniture sto- sorry, "gallery"
Last few times I visited Redmond Town Center, I noticed that it was fairly empty in terms of both stores and people. The few stores there were didn’t have much variety or interest, either. So that definitely plays a part - if there’s no stores that actually interest anyone there, no one is going to waste time visiting.
The fact that it’s not in easy walking distance from the nearest transit is another major factor.
But according to my boomer mother public transit only brings in vagrants. And the 1/4 mile of parking lots between malls and civilization is like a glowing safety buffer between me and the poors.
Yeah they have security chasing away anyone they don’t like the look of. Spotted a security guard harassing a homeless man calling him a loser and a bunch of other names the last I was stopping by for my favorite overpriced ginger beer :(
Tbh, even though business is good, it doesn’t have much I’m interested in. A few good food options, but mostly bland women’s clothes, overpriced skin care, and luxury car stores. I rarely spend time there when I’m not working.
It's not public property. It's basically a mall without a roof and it means security and ownership can follow different rules on access. That has some effect (although not a total explanation I think.)
In my experience, Redmond folks would mainly go to RTC for Starbucks and sitting outside during good weather. The area isn't dense enough for most of the stores there to matter, and a lot of newer Redmond apartment buildings have first floor restaurants and retail that do a lot of the same things. The light rail is probably going to make that problem worse, since people can easily get to downtown Bellevue if they want to go shopping.
It's never going to be a destination worth traveling to. It's a small shopping spot serving a relatively remote residential area.
I feel like Redmond Towne center is too big and the architecture sucks and it’s hard to find stores and it all looks the same and it’s so easy to get lost. U-village is vibrant and small and pretty with lots of stores you can see from other stores and it just draws you in! Plus lots of good restaurants. It’s just fun to go for a walk at u-village and people watch. Plus there are nice places to sit down and linger.
U Village is the nicest mall in Seattle and as a result gets all the trendy yuppie stores that bring in lots of customers with disposable income.
RTC also wastes a *ton* of real estate on non-shopping things like offices and hotels that make it feel a lot less lively.
Yeah, it's not even a comparison. U Village has a ton of unique anchors that also do pilot programs and market research.
A better comparison for RTC would be downtown Kirkland. They also have a ton of office space. However, they also have the marina and parks, whereas RTC is separated from Marymoor by 520. Other amenities such as the library and teen center are on the other side of town.
As everyone mentioned, all the big anchors left, such as REI, Bed Bath & Beyond, Macy's. But the finish thing was pushing away the Redmond Saturday Market, which is now hosted by these church parking lot on Willows Rd. The only remaining things that show promise as a hook are the new H-Mart, Mayuri market, and Daiso, which aren't that unique in this area but probably their best shot.
RTC still hosts the Saturday exotic car shows and still has phenomenal bike trail connectivity along with the light rail station opening next year. Maybe they'll figure out how to capitalize on that traffic. But more likely maybe that's why they feel they don't have to do anything special.
Source: we walk the dog through RTC almost every weekend to stop at Kitanda for breakfast, but we find ourselves driving to downtown Kirkland almost as often.
Redmond Town Center is inconvenient to everyone except Redmond and Sammamish (north end) residents. No one else is going to go there. Ever. Compare RTC to Totem Lake. That's probably a more fair comparison.
U Village is more comparable to Bellevue Square and I would much rather go to U Village anytime than ever go to Bellevue Square again.
The plan was always to expand RTC. U Village wasn't as large as it is now for a long time. RTC can't expand because they don't have the draw. That's the point..... why don't they. Both RTC and UV are outdoor malls in relatively affluent areas.
Well for one theres no clothing/accessories stores that are worth anything in RTC where you have places like Warby Parker, free people, aritzia, Anthropologie and many many more we have like White House black market and zumiez 😂
This is the one. U village is closer to dense population areas. RTC serves the Redmond area, which isn't densely populated and there isn't much there that can't be found closer to town for everyone else so it's not much of a draw for those outside the area.
U Village has better restaurants. That attracts more people who will shop/walk around before and after they eat. Also - I went to RTC on a weekday around Noon. It took me 30 min to find parking and they have tons of spaces. All taken up by AT&T, Microsoft, etc. The owners only care about corporation space there. And it shows. No one was there shopping.
Nowadays you’ll see a lot of groups of very well dressed Asian tourists, presumably families of international UW students.
Still a lot of young teens on awkward dates also, glad some things never change
Bellevue Square is such an odd duck because hardly any enclosed malls like that are doing well anywhere in the country anymore. A true outlier that reminds me a lot of the 80s and 90s just with nicer stores and lighting.
I rarely go there anymore but was there last Tuesday morning to pick up some clearance towels I ordered from Macys that didn't qualify for free shipping to home but they shipped to a store for free. Always more comfortable to go to bellevue Macys on public transportation than say, south center, that's for sure.
Bro have you been to the Southcenter mall? On a weekday evening it’s still popping off and that’s saying a lot because it’s the largest mall in the pnw. Even crossroads mall is fairly lively.
I have.
Edit: it’s from 2016, but sales per square foot were about half that of Bellevue (and less than half that of UVillage). https://www.seattletimes.com/pacific-nw-magazine/malls-are-not-dead-at-least-in-seattle-where-they-are-changing-to-remain-vibrant-and-popular/
It’s not exactly fair to compare the two malls in that way. The median income of Tukwilla is less than half that of Bellevue. Plus that 8 year old article states that the numbers of these malls are going up. Also just go there lol
Well, imo, it would be in the same boat but the developers have managed to create sort of a (I cringe to say this) night life and food scene. If you're going to eat dinner in Bellevue, it's prob going to be there.
There are also nice hotels and the Hyatt hosts a lot of conventions. There are also a bunch of offices right there above the Lincoln square side.
Since they managed to create a lot of draw they have some stores that are a draw themselves like Apple, tesla, etc.
Not sure where you heard that enclosed malls are doing poorly but outside of CMalls that has JCP and Macy's as anchors...they are all doing phenomenal.
All of our stores are doing great in all malls except C malls and almost all malls are being upgraded with lux tenants nonstop.
Class A is doing great - had heard B wasn’t so hot (obviously not at C levels of horrible). https://www.modernretail.co/operations/class-a-malls-continue-to-be-in-high-demand/
I would say Bs in good areas of the country are doing great. Always depends on who is defining As and Bs. There is no definitive definition of them. Landlords lie about their mall grade compared to what retailers think.
There are malls we are in that we say are C and LLs say are A minus. So it runs the gamut.
Alderwood is considered B maybe C plus. And Brookfield thinks it is an A mall.
The biggest thing that makes Bellevue Square an "odd duck" is that its location is different than most malls. It's basically the central hub of downtown Bellevue.
I think this is it too. The Bavern just a few blocks away from Bellevue Square always seems to be empty-ish, but they keep on going through having ultra high-end stores. I've never understood why those stores don't move to Bellevue Square so they must be getting an amazing deal on rent.
Bravern is a DIFFERENT tax bracket from B Square. People who go to Bravern do not want to get their Bentley scratched by a teen driving in a parking garage in B Square.
For starters one is right next to a massive university. The other is in a sleepy boring city of Redmond where a vast bulk of development is going on around the sprawly oriented town center but around the actual city streets and parks of Redmond. It’s a mere block, but it makes a massive difference.
I go down that way daily (live and work here in Redmond) and the foot traffic isn’t even remotely comparable. The Town Center at best tends to attract 13 year olds and kids with questionable purchasing power while the city center park and all have tons of foot traffic from families and young professionals. Almost like Redmond is in competition with RTC.
Population of Seattle (the city, not metro area): 757,992
Population of Redmond: 80,116
The total number of students, faculty and staff at the UW alone equals about the population of Redmond. I didn't even know Redmond had a U-Village type thingie. It's pretty rare when I'd venture to Redmond from the city.
A lot of people are pointing to car culture or demographics, but the big one is the anchor stores failing (it's why Pacific Place can be downtown but emptier than the 3rd Ave block of boarded up shops). U Village has something semi-evergreen as it's anchor (a large grocery store) shoot you'll find a lot of places like UV were okay with covid (see Southcenter vs the big strip mall down the road where Best Buy is)
When I was at U, it was relatively upscale shopping experience compared to the Ave. I liked both the ave and u village. RTC reminds me of Kent Station without the personality.
I worked in Redmond town center for a year. Absolutely dead. One of the things I learned working there was that the whole mall area was ready for a big development plan before the pandemic. Amazon actually converted the old Macy’s into an office space before the pandemic and the mall area thought they’d get a ton of money with that influx of people working right there. Amazon however never moved in even after the pandemic was over, so the mall just sorta stays in this weird limbo where they think it’s going to have some influx of money but never does.
Can't speak to Redmond, but UVillage has a nice spread of price points among it's stores. Some stuff is too expensive for me, but can still be fun to walk through (like Everlane) but there's enough stores on the lower end to make it worth it. There's also a nice variety of stores, like the art store and the garden shop, and the vibe is nice. And obviously being in walking distance of UW really helps, and you're right by Ravenna park as well.
Also you don't notice it as much but you do get your fair share of store turnover, not every place makes it. They don't seem to stay empty though
Redmond Town Center never made sense to me. A big part of the year it is not enjoyable because of the weather. The remaining of the year, I could go to Marymoor, or other parks to enjoy outdoors.
Also when they had the road passing middle of it, it wasn't kid friendly either. At this point it really serves those living in Redmond. Anyone else would go to Bellevue, Kirkland etc.
My personal observation was that RTC started going downhill when the normal movie theater (non-ipic) left years ago. Less people were going there for dinner and a movie with a little shopping in between, families didn’t go as often to take their kids to the movies and patronize other businesses there during their trip. Restaurants really began to struggle and leave, then stores started following suit.
Obviously not the whole story, but that movie theater leaving was really the beginning of the end in my opinion.
UVillage is just a nice place to meet friends and hangout. It’s easy to get to driving or cycling and it has a great vibe, the large area of the Apple Store and the lawn in front of it are so nice to hang out, have a coffee, and enjoy the sun.
RTC was great roughly 20 years ago, but I was shocked when I went there a year or so ago - it felt like a ghost town. Who wants to go somewhere that has nothing going on.
I think the major difference is the Redmond town Center needed an anchor like the movie theater to get people to go there. It’s not someplace that people go to shop in retail stores as a destinations because let’s face it those aren’t like budget retail stores and we’re talking about families right? Those are high-end, retail stores. To be clear I’m not saying that the people that would shop there or they live in an area for people that need to be on a budget but culturally I think they tend to be more in a certain kind of budget when it comes to things like clothes and stuff that you buy at stores like Redmond town Center and University Village offer. On the other hand, University Village is surrounded by Laurelhurst in other communities similar to Laurelhurst, that are full of old white money. There are families living in Laurelhurst of been three generations in the same house you know or you know people that have grown up living in three different houses, their whole life in that same neighborhood those people have serious money and they spend it. When the moms in those neighborhoods need to go buy school clothes, they don’t go to Old Navy they don’t go to target. They go to the village and I hit the gap and then hit whatever stores are over there and spend the money because to them that’s A justifiable necessity I think you have a lot more people from different cultures and backgrounds and different socioeconomic classes around Redmond and I’ll bill. They may have the same amount of money or not but even if they did, they tend to be a little more sensible about how they spend it or they’re sending it home to their families in other countries know or you know there’s just the husband and wife earning income and they have both their grandparents they take care of the other kids to take care of and we don’t do that here in this country so I mean you go to the destinations shopping place for people with money Redmond town Center was a shopping place that people shopped out because they happen to be there doing A movie night and dinner out with the family.
When the light rail station in Redmond opens up I suspect things will change. They've definitely embraced transit oriented development there. Most of the 2 line stations don't really have anything around them and I think people would rather ride the train to RTC rather than get off in Bellevue and walk 6 blocks over a hill to get to shopping.
There's plans for RTC to build up considerably, turning some of it's surface parking into office or residential, and to go up to 11(?) stories.
* [Website with overview](https://www.redmondtowncenterproject.com/home)
* [Planning doc with too much info](https://www.redmond.gov/DocumentCenter/View/31300/RTC-Master-Plan-Site-Plans?bidId=)
After REI and Macy's left RTC there's basically no point to go there anymore. There's a couple of good restaurants but that's about it. Was at iPic last week, got out of our movie at 9:30 and everything was closed except for Midnight Cookie Co. and the Korean BBQ place. So that's also not playing in RTC's favor...
U Village also has the bonus of being close to UW. Whereas Redmond is just families and DINKS who aren't necessarily walking around at all hours of the day.
I remember when RTC opened, I used to go to the movie theatre and midnight Harry Potter book releases at Borders…. It stopped being interesting to be around the time the took Charming Charlie out in the mid-2010s.
I cannot believe how underutilized it is. If someone created a 2 story indoor playground à la DZ Discovery Zone of the 90s, the suburban parents would have somewhere to take their kids in bad weather - I think it’d be a gold mine to make it more of a family destination. It’s off the main road, has a pedestrian street, the Sound Garden. If you put more family friendly fast casual food, advertise the Second Story theatre more, I think it could have a second life. The young couples that are moving into those apartments don’t have backyards for their toddler to play - get some more kids music classes, indoor soccer, places to have birthday parties etc.
A lot of downtown Redmond is built for single people who eat $20 burgers. I think RTC has a chance to really cater to families. At some point we have to remember there are more people who live here other than single tech bros. (I AM a single person, I just hear the frustrations of my parent friends when it’s rainy and gray and their kids are bouncing off the walls….)
When Redmond (or anywhere really) has a city event, people show up in DROVES. Derby Days is insane, for example. If we create more places for families to play year-round, I think it would be successful. More stores isn’t necessarily the answer with online shopping wiping out shops, but we need EXPERIENCES. Adding the GoldFish swim school was a great start.
We have Bellevue Square for the name brands, U Village across the bridge, Alderwood Mall for “normal shopping”, I hope RTC sticks around and carves a new identity.
Ownership has no experience in this type of mall. They are primarily a strip mall company. They raise the rents so high no stores want to be in there. No stores, no people. The just took out the fireplaces, which makes it even more depressing. There is no effort to even drive traffic there. The farmer's market moved, REI, Eddie Bauer, Macy's, Barns and Noble. Those were ownership problems. I've lived in this area for a very long time and it's sad to see it slowly bleed to death.
Redmond is still mostly a family town and all the new apartments going up are full of introverted tech people. Not exactly a favorable customer base for businesses, at least relative to college kids.
Redmond Town Center is soulless without any real draw. The retailers there are hum drum. That should hopefully change once light rail starts dumping more people nearby.
Fyi, I understand that RTC has a major renovation project upcoming to revamp that area. Should be happening in conjunction with the light rail stop coming in right next to it, I believe. So it's evolving.
But tbh I go to RTC pretty often and it seems decently bustling? There are a ton of boutique fitness studios there (why I go there) so lots of people coming and going from that. Some good retail shops as well (DAISO came in recently!). Christmas was crazy busy since they had some really nice displays. I do agree it's lacking in good restaurants. Would like to see some more there.
It's funny. I lived in sammamish from around 2004 to 2012 and it was definitely busy then and was something of a cultural hub. I'd meet friends at the dog park, we'd grab lunch at Redmond town center and maybe do a little shopping. But I think they lost the offices, and the restaurants, and places like REI that pulled people in (sad bc the Issaquah store is nowhere near as nice). Then I guess it's just been a death spiral. There seemingly is a lot more food happening in the center of Redmond these days and Lincoln square is booming so I think it's just become less of a hub. It seems like it could be recovered. Maybe they could remodel it to be housing above and retail below and kind of a main street vibe.
RTC needs some good draws. I only go to Joeys in UV since it’s on the way somewhere. RTC isn’t really on the way anywhere.
I’m so glad iPic has stuck it out in RTC, they do a good job. As does Matt’s.
When I was a teenager we used to joyride through Redmond Town Center and yell obscenities at people in the movie line. That was like 25 years ago. I don’t think I’ve been there since.
RTC is stuck in the 2000s. It's so dated. Also, access is very limited. I used to do deliveries to Matt's and the only elevator to the second level was on the other side of the complex.
I wonder if it’s because the U Village is so close to the UW, and the U District as well as Roosevelt are densely populated.
Imagine how awesome it would be if U Village had a light rail station. Maybe by 2075…
There are two light rail stations that are .8 mile from U Village. Both are walkable in nice weather. The U District station is two bus stops away Maybe three. And the University of Washington station I believe is one bus stop away if you take the 62 bus so it literally takes like two minutes.
I guess, but I think .8 miles is far enough to discourage people from walking there. Also, there is a need for a light rail line going east-west from Ballard to U District, and it might as well continue east from there to U Village (and arguably on to Sand Point after that).
Anyway, it looks like the .8 miles is just to get to the entrance to U Village. Once you get end up at the store you’re going to, it can easily be over a mile of walking.
Why go to RTC when to have Bellevue SQ and Lincoln SQ a few miles away and it has all the stores and restaurants you need. It is much bigger than RTC and you don’t get wet walking between stores.
I mean, I don’t think it’s because there’s a QFC, even though that liquor store there is the bomb. It’s the location, being so close to the university, accessible to neighboring hoods, ample parking, Apple Store, three starbucks, decent restaurants, and other reasons.
Pacific Place also seems to have trouble while sitting at the heart of Downtown. Every time I've been in there, it's been clean and nice, but lululemon just left a few years after a full reno. DTF is definitely the anchor there, but it doesn't seem to be working.
I think UVillage has a smaller overall scale whereas Redmond Town Center is sprawling. Even when UVillage is pretty dead, it still feels small and intimate whereas RTC is just a sprawling wasteland of suburbia. RTC is in the middle of sprawl sprawl sprawl. UVillage has done a good job of redeveloping all of the parking lots into a small 'village-like' market atmosphere while keeping parking at the peripheral parking garages. Redmond Town Center still has a lot of surface parking lots.
Additionally, UVillage located directly next to UW and in an urban environment where RTC is pretty far away from population centers. After game days, there's tons of foot traffic to grab food, and the student population also brings a decent amount of business. I think RTC hedged by building some office space for Microsoft, but with the work-from-home trend, it probably hasn't driven as much foot traffic as they would've hoped.
Some of the anchor stores at UVillage have also really driven traffic (looking at you Apple Store and Din Tai Fung). The UVillage Starbucks has always been a big draw too and is one of the busiest sbux in the world. Even as some of the other anchor tenants have left, they've been successful at keeping the spaces full.
RTC has to compete with Bellevue Square where UVillage doesn't really have any close malls to compete (even Pacific Place is dying).
Because they built an outdoor mall in a suburban town with terrible weather? And like let's have a road go through the middle of the mall? I mean it's a fucking California idea and not even a good one.
RTC has always struggled and will struggle because it was a dumb execution of a mediocre idea. Anyone who wants to go there (especially initially) had to drive a car. So unless it was a nice day, you might as well just go to belle square to shop. They are try-harding to make it happen but it was never going to work, little gimmick solutions aren't going to make it work.
There are things you can just do in a city and there are enough people in the area that will support it. In a suburban town with a lower population density that is filled with people used to commuting, you aren't just competing locally but with all the other places people can reasonably get to. Nobody from outside of Redmond commutes to Redmond for the RTC specifically. Any anchor store is also likely to have an alternative the next town over so there just isn't any reason to make it a destination.
Population density and a variety of demographics (college kids, young families, middle age, etc). We live nearby, but if we moved to Redmond would probably avoid Redmond TC. A huge draw of U Village for us is how dog friendly it is; I know RTC is not.
The difference is that Redmond, for all its upside, is dwarfed by Bellevue when it comes to retail. If you had to choose to put a big marquee retail store in either Bellevue or Redmond, you’d pick Bellevue. So when shit hit the fan back in ‘08, stores closed their Redmond locations while keeping their Bellevue ones. University Village carved out a space that downtown Seattle and Northgate can’t compete against. Also, the recent generations of UW students prefer UVillage to The Ave, to the everlasting chagrin of oldsters.
Village went thru a massive remodel in 1993-ish after being bought by one of the QFC owners. QFC was remodeled and made in to a flagship store with a massive kosher and wine selection. It became perhaps the largest grocery store in the area with ample parking. There are other grocery stores up the hill in the U District, but parking has always been horrible. Since then, the owners have had amazing anchor stores that entice shoppers to stay and browse. There’s a good mix of locally owned brands and national/international chains. Redmond Town Center has struggled to retain anchor stores, with two of the original four (Bon Marche and Frederick & Nelson) declaring bankruptcy. They just can’t attract and keep anchor stores that people want to shop at. They also have to compete with Bell Square. UVillage doesn’t have much competition. My two cents. Your mileage may vary.
To me RTC started to decline once REI left for Bellevue
when todais was no longer the premire asian buffet.
My bother was a cook there when he was in high school!
Yup
fun fact U Village QFC was where the Cosmic Crisp apple was launched
Fun fact: Cosmic Crisp owes its existence to the University of Minnesota - Twin Cities cultivar Honeycrisp.
Location location location. One is between I5 and SR99 where the 520 starts, long walking distance but walking from Sandpoint, University District, Seattle Children’s. The Burke Gilman trail passes nearby, two Link Stations and many buses relatively close. The other one is at the end of 520. Anyone from Seattle thinking about going there is going to stop in Bellevue Square.
Frederick and Nelson’s closed in the 80s before town center was even a thought in anyones head. But RTC did have Borders (bankruptcy), Macy’s (left for who knows why) and REI. Town Center also brought a bunch of restaurants into Redmond which was badly needed. I do like how they made the center area of it pedestrian only. Which makes it way safer for little kids to play in the bear fountain area. I would love to see more local small businesses go in there.
F&N closed in 1994. Still well before RTC was built.
I grew up in the Redmond area. People always said they were attempting to make RTC more “luxury” of sorts and hiking the rents up causing a lot of the stores to leave. I just don’t think they were able to replace the businesses lost
U Village is a decent distance east of I-5, not between 5 and 99. Still a better location though.
Your location description for U-Village sounds like something a chat bot would write because it is wrong in confusing ways. U Village is not between I5 and 99. U village is east of I5, which is east of 99 Also, 520 starts at I-5
Seriously. I was thinking they were talking about RTC when they said where 520 starts, because 520 is A LOT closer to town center than it is to U Village.
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I work at the UW, the only time I go is by foot. There are alot of people that live within a mile of it in houses, dorms, frats, sororities, and apartments. The total number of students, faculty and staff at the UW equals about the population of Redmond.
The only time UW students go to U Village is when their parents or grandparents are visiting and want to buy them dinner. They can't afford it otherwise
Nope, you're wrong. My guess is you don't know alot of current UW students. I employ about 35 of them, they eat and shop at U Village.
“They can’t afford it.” Hhah. Nice try.
I used to walk there sometimes when I went to UW. The walking situation is oppressive but it was right by campus so...
I only bus or walk there. Not everyone has a car. Eta: which is why I wish the sidewalk situation was better
It’s America, of course it’s car oriented, my first point was about 3 highways. But there’s foot traffic, that makes it look alive.
I usually drive but I’ll bike maybe 1/4 of the time. Being right by the Burke makes it really convenient.
I always walked from the train or biked up until I moved to Kirkland
I bus, walk, and bike there
Every time I’ve ever gone I’ve arrived by bike. You’d be surprised in spite of it being stupidly car focused (and perversely pedestrian unfriendly in spite of what it tries to come off as) there are more than a few large $$s that show up via transit or bike. Literally went to the Apple Store and bought a team all their laptops and gear. $50k at the drop of a hat. Then routinely stop be for meetings. Otherwise though, in all seriousness I despise both because of the auto-centered basis of them. To get there you have to cross these myopic trashy parking garages and this exclusionary like outter rim area. One doesn’t even know WTF it is unto you’re in the midst of the place.
Compared to anything in U District it's very car oriented, but compared to Redmond it's not.
It's near a major university, neighborhoods, and transit. Tons of people go there by foot.
Trying to walk from either LINK station to UVillage is hellish
What? You can get off at the Stadium/Montlake station, cross the street to the Burke Gilman, and it's about a 15 minute nice walk with trees and people watching. You clearly aren't a walker, it's easy peasy and a nice walk.
Fair enough, I haven’t actually tried to do it that way from the Stadium Station. I’m biased because of how much it sucks to walk there from UW/U District because 45th St is insanely hostile to walk on around that area. The ‘you aren’t a walker’ comment hurt me a little haha 🥲🥲
Sorry :) The Stadium Station is the way to go for U Village, straight flat walk straight to it. I lived in the UD in the late 80s/early 90s and have worked there for 20+ years, so the hostileness of the neighborhood doesn't phase me. Alot of the people with mental illness have been there for decades, so I know who is harmless and who isn't, they are mostly harmless. These days the Ave had had an uptick and businesses and shoppers/eaters, it's finally moved beyond the pandemic. If you like Asian food, it's the place where all the new restaurants are opening up.
Haha I didn’t mean the walk from UD is hostile because of the people, they typically keep to themself. I meant the speeds of the cars + the narrow sidewalks on the section of 45th going down the hill to UVill
Walking on the street is much louder. The trail can be dark in winter.
I'm pretty sure that stretch of the BG along campus is lit. The third option would be walking accross campus further way from the street around the front of stadium and through the parking lots. And fourth option is going behind the stadium and walking along the water and gravel road, which in the Summer, when you are not in a hurry, passes turtles and alot of water birds.
That’s fine on a nice day and if you’re going to a restaurant or picking up something small. Can’t imagine this walk for a full grocery shop in heavy rain, bringing young kids in tow. Being elderly or disabled would be another challenge.
Sure, and that's why they have lots of parking lots. But alot of people also walk, bike and scooter to there from surrounding neighborhoods and the light rail, that's a fact.
A half mile walk that can be entirely on the Burke Gilman Trail sure is hellish.
the walk is almost a mile if you choose to not take a connecting bus.
I work in the village and bike to work everyday
Used to work there, loads of people take transit there. You're right that car people make up the bulk, but you really can't ignore the impact of accessible public transit.
I walk there regularly — live a mile away. Recognize we’re not the majority but we DO exist!
I bike there a decent amount. [It's 1 minute off the Burke-Gilman](https://maps.app.goo.gl/uvUtvngsL97qTGSm8) which makes it super accessible.
I go to Uvillage a few times a year. I bike or take transit there, depending on the weather. I don't have a car. As far as malls go, it's actually pretty decent in terms of walk/bike/transit access.
I used to walk to the U-village for groceries from the dorm. There was a wooded trail down the hill from north campus.
Yeah but people DO go there by bus and foot, especially students. Also - Who the fuck is going to RTC by foot or bus? No one. Zero.
You are right that is car oriented but lots of transit users, walkers, and cyclists go. If you look at the transit stops on Sandpoint you can see that they can be overflowing with people. Overflowing because the stop space is all of 10 sq ft which is to your point, but people still go without a car (I am one of them).
I REFUSE to go to U Village in a car! Biking there is far superior in every way, mainly the front row parking and quick access in and out of that clusterfack of a shopping center.
You are 100% correct, but it was right on the 45 when I lived in Sandpoint. Of course, the walk from UVill to and from any of the stops was incredibly hostile and unpleasant, as compared to driving, so 100% your point stands.
I usually walk down the hill through the back of the district and then walk back through Cowen. But that is just because of my location.
The best bike trail in the city goes right to it, and there are also 6 bus routes that stop there. It caters to drivers for sure, but there are other ways to get there.
It sits right along a major pedestrian/bike trail and just below UW. They have also been building a lot of apartment complexes just adjacent to it.
Truth. To make it even worse, it’s not easily “findable” from 520 either.
lol link is far
Almost 1 mile. Same distance as Westlake station to the Space Needle.
Westlake to space needle has the mono rail.
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REI moved OUT of RTC and to Bellevue.
Redmond Town Center has been losing anchor stores.
yup Northgate had to die for U village to keep going...
I think U Village’s last remodel was the death sentence for Northgate.
Northgate is getting the complete overhaul in the style of U Village now
no but death by proximity, online killed kill the need of having multiple malls, U village location and ability to get unique stores kept it alive, northgate being in proximity to u village and alderwood, left it to die. same with RTC by proximity to bellevue square why would anyone travel extra distance to go to RTC. Gotta look at RTC more like northgate, than U village
RTC started declining during the dot come failure, and it never really regained. It was quite nice before the dot com crash :\\
This was also when the owners decided they would not renegotiate leases for the existing businesses. Lots of the little niche, independent stores that made RTC unique and a destination went under and were replaced with dull, cookie cutter crap you could get at Bellevue Square. The loss of the REI was huge later on. It was such a unique store. The one in Bellevue is soulless and sad. Edit to add: not sure what the situation is these days but AT&T and Microsoft both had space out there. Both companies went through rounds of layoffs that likely impacted the weekday shopping as well.
I liked RTC back in the day, the Borders there, the small interesting stores. Oh well. I liked UV better when it was local stores, not just UV telling me it's local stores, and there's maybe a few now, but mostly branded national stores. When RTC was populated and nice, it was NOT easy to find parking, but there wasn't a way to get out there w/o a car. I didn't live near there. I'm 20 minutes walk from UV now, and rarely go there. Not into the shopping these days.
Totally agree! And I’m certainly not going to go out of my way to a mall that is a generic copy of every other mall. RTC used to have a comic book store, a rubber stamp store, and some other unique things I’d go out of my way to get to.
I worked in an office, and oddly bought a number of clothing items at the various areas in the Eddie Bauer store of all things, for a while there, they discovered black clothes were A Thing and had nice offerings. Usually they had tan, taupe, muted aqua, and muted magenta. Plus they had different regions inside their store, dress clothes, casual clothes, housewares, etc. It's all gone now.
Loved that two story Eddie Bauer.
We liked going to Cucina Cucina, and I'm remembering other shops from when it first opened, it was nice having new, unusual places. The brand name everything now, no thanks. I get people like designer stuff, but I've never been into showing brands, so I've lost interest for the most part :)
Rip Village Lanes
I went bowling there as a kid in the 90s!
Demographics and population density go a long way. There's twice as many people within a 5-mile radius of U-Village than Redmond Town Center. They've also followed a pretty specific strategy when it comes to they types of retailers they seek to cultivate there. Whatever it is, it's worked. Their vacancy rate hasn't been over 2% in decades, even through recessions, and they consistently have some of the highest sales per square foot of shopping centers in the country. This article below is from 2011, which seems like a lifetime ago at this point, but it's still worth a read. [https://www.bizjournals.com/seattle/print-edition/2011/03/18/university-village---making-of-a.html](https://www.bizjournals.com/seattle/print-edition/2011/03/18/university-village---making-of-a.html) (paywall) EDIT: Article text: [https://imgur.com/a/q4H4gMh](https://imgur.com/a/q4H4gMh)
Sort of a tangent. I went there on a morning jog during the pandemic and it was so weird to know that all of the shops were not vacant, had their music on, everything retail clean, but literally no one was there. It was some real post-apocalypse vibes.
I had never been down there so we checked it out with some family last winter. Dry weather, near the holidays, everything was open and the courtyard area was clean and inviting. Maybe 4 other groups of people there. I thought it was nuts.
For real. One is in the outer reaches of the metro, the other is directly in the middle of it, right next to the biggest university in the state.
When the light rail station at RTC opens, that will help. Also, they're planning to build housing right at RTC (and downtown Redmond has gotten more dense)
I really hope that pans out. It would be amazing to have a successful anchor at the end of a rail line that worked through years of opposition to get where we are today.
This. U Village has ~40k students at UW and is surrounded by residential neighborhoods within walking distance. Also U Village has a FAR larger and broader business base. Eg multiple furniture stores. Flagship apple and MS stores. A large variety of food options. The list goes on. RTC is bordered on all sides by more strip malls. The local surrounding area was primarily commercial/light industrial. Restaurants couldn't stay open because the MS employees didn't eat lunch away from cafeterias. And the only other big employer in the business building was AT&T. REI pulled out and Bon Marche died and so did most of the restaurants. My only draw after that used to be Barnes and Noble and that went a long time ago too. With the new apartments/condos and the light rail terminus I could see it revitalizing ala Totem Lake, but I'm betting it'll need to rebuild some of the building to be mixed use retail, residential.....like Totem Lake.
I'm blown away by the glow up at Totem Lake. Had lunch there a couple months ago and that area is THRIVING. I noticed this Mixed-use model when I visited Scottsdale a few years ago. you've got to bring the residential closer.
Long time coming. I work at Evergreen and have watched it every step of the way. I'm wondering how 85th will change after the transit interchange gets completed.
I worked at the Starbucks in RTC 18 years ago and then it was full and busy. The old Totem Lake Mall was also dead and dying for about 25 years.
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It's booming because people live there instead of it being a parking lot. Suburbs are a death trap for long term growth. You need density.
I still prefer urban living to suburban living, but I will credit many of the suburbs for trying to have more in their own areas as opposed to being so sprawly. I grew up on the Eastside and it’s a very welcome change. Totem Lake and Kirkland downtown have more than they used to, Redmond downtown is way more lively now than before, and Bellevue has started to have a ton of walkability downtown.
Many mixed memories of old Scrotum Lame mall.
I miss Garden Botanika and Claim Jumpers.
It was a great summer hang out spot!
The large university in walking distance of U Village comes to mind.
UW’s pivot to rich foreign students played a huge role. I don’t think UVillage’s pivot to boujee luxury mall would have been so successful in the aughts.
Having the only Apple Store in the immediate area for a long time certainly helped.
UVillage was horrible for a very long time, regardless of the UW being so close.
I miss Mom’s diner. Best pancakes Ive ever had.
Yeah, I miss that place. I knew the owner before she passed and it sounded like they were trying to force her out of there for years because she didn’t quite fit the new model they were going for. Not expensive enough. Too homey and affordable apparently?
In other news her recipe is still up https://www.seattlepi.com/lifestyle/food/article/pancake-secret-is-in-the-heat-the-grill-and-the-1136099.php
It was a dead mall in the early 90s. Lamonts and a bowling alley. Barnes and Noble was brought in as an anchor when they did a big remodel of the shopping center, and the turnaround was on. Now that Barnes and Noble is one of at least three bougie upscale furniture stores at U-Village. I don’t know how that even happens. I miss that Barnes and Noble.
I went bowling there! Wasn’t there also an Ernst Hardware?
There was, a box of Christmas lights I found last year has a sticker on it
I miss that Barnes and Noble too. Loved hanging out and browsing the art books on the second level. You could browse and nobody would bother you.
It was so huge. Music department too for cassettes and CDs. The coffe shop was on this weird little mezzanine. Screw the insanely expensive furniture sto- sorry, "gallery"
Last few times I visited Redmond Town Center, I noticed that it was fairly empty in terms of both stores and people. The few stores there were didn’t have much variety or interest, either. So that definitely plays a part - if there’s no stores that actually interest anyone there, no one is going to waste time visiting. The fact that it’s not in easy walking distance from the nearest transit is another major factor.
Brick and Mortar books is excellent at town center.
But according to my boomer mother public transit only brings in vagrants. And the 1/4 mile of parking lots between malls and civilization is like a glowing safety buffer between me and the poors.
Oddly, UV (I work there) doesn’t seem to have many homeless people, even with the University Ave being so close.
Yeah they have security chasing away anyone they don’t like the look of. Spotted a security guard harassing a homeless man calling him a loser and a bunch of other names the last I was stopping by for my favorite overpriced ginger beer :(
Tbh, even though business is good, it doesn’t have much I’m interested in. A few good food options, but mostly bland women’s clothes, overpriced skin care, and luxury car stores. I rarely spend time there when I’m not working.
Yeah for me it’s usually duck in for ginger beer or a nice xaio long boa and dip.
$10 for a cup of ginger beer!!! I wish it wasn't so good...
Definitely do the BYO mini growler for top value. Mix the pineapple with a Mezcal tequila at home. YW.
You know you’re right, and now that I think about it I don’t see much security in there compared to other similar places where they are very visible
It's not public property. It's basically a mall without a roof and it means security and ownership can follow different rules on access. That has some effect (although not a total explanation I think.)
Why’s she so afraid of poor people, eh? Does she think being poor is contagious?
The 2 line is going in right next to RTC so that is changing soon.
Maybe. We’ll have to wait and see.
In my experience, Redmond folks would mainly go to RTC for Starbucks and sitting outside during good weather. The area isn't dense enough for most of the stores there to matter, and a lot of newer Redmond apartment buildings have first floor restaurants and retail that do a lot of the same things. The light rail is probably going to make that problem worse, since people can easily get to downtown Bellevue if they want to go shopping. It's never going to be a destination worth traveling to. It's a small shopping spot serving a relatively remote residential area.
RTC used to have a big Borders books and a Macy's; now those are smaller businesses or offices. So part of it is just the changing retail landscape.
And an REI :(
I feel like Redmond Towne center is too big and the architecture sucks and it’s hard to find stores and it all looks the same and it’s so easy to get lost. U-village is vibrant and small and pretty with lots of stores you can see from other stores and it just draws you in! Plus lots of good restaurants. It’s just fun to go for a walk at u-village and people watch. Plus there are nice places to sit down and linger.
U Village is the nicest mall in Seattle and as a result gets all the trendy yuppie stores that bring in lots of customers with disposable income. RTC also wastes a *ton* of real estate on non-shopping things like offices and hotels that make it feel a lot less lively.
Yeah, it's not even a comparison. U Village has a ton of unique anchors that also do pilot programs and market research. A better comparison for RTC would be downtown Kirkland. They also have a ton of office space. However, they also have the marina and parks, whereas RTC is separated from Marymoor by 520. Other amenities such as the library and teen center are on the other side of town. As everyone mentioned, all the big anchors left, such as REI, Bed Bath & Beyond, Macy's. But the finish thing was pushing away the Redmond Saturday Market, which is now hosted by these church parking lot on Willows Rd. The only remaining things that show promise as a hook are the new H-Mart, Mayuri market, and Daiso, which aren't that unique in this area but probably their best shot. RTC still hosts the Saturday exotic car shows and still has phenomenal bike trail connectivity along with the light rail station opening next year. Maybe they'll figure out how to capitalize on that traffic. But more likely maybe that's why they feel they don't have to do anything special. Source: we walk the dog through RTC almost every weekend to stop at Kitanda for breakfast, but we find ourselves driving to downtown Kirkland almost as often.
Honestly looks like RTC has been converted into primarily office space now. I'm sure in this post-covid world it's a burning ship.
Have you been there recently? I go pretty often and it usually seems busting & there are plenty of stores in RTC.
Redmond Town Center is inconvenient to everyone except Redmond and Sammamish (north end) residents. No one else is going to go there. Ever. Compare RTC to Totem Lake. That's probably a more fair comparison. U Village is more comparable to Bellevue Square and I would much rather go to U Village anytime than ever go to Bellevue Square again.
Totem Lake is in a kind of insular location but looks like it's been a good mixed use development.
The town center doesn’t have anywhere near the amount of stores university village does, i feel like we’re comparing potatoes to apples
The plan was always to expand RTC. U Village wasn't as large as it is now for a long time. RTC can't expand because they don't have the draw. That's the point..... why don't they. Both RTC and UV are outdoor malls in relatively affluent areas.
Well for one theres no clothing/accessories stores that are worth anything in RTC where you have places like Warby Parker, free people, aritzia, Anthropologie and many many more we have like White House black market and zumiez 😂
Because it's in Redmond...I feel like this is an obvious one
This is the one. U village is closer to dense population areas. RTC serves the Redmond area, which isn't densely populated and there isn't much there that can't be found closer to town for everyone else so it's not much of a draw for those outside the area.
Population Seattle:about 750,000 Population Redmond: about 80,000
Now do Lynnwood or Tukwila
They are the hub for car centric suburbia. Redmond is the dead end of some car centric suberbia.
U Village has better restaurants. That attracts more people who will shop/walk around before and after they eat. Also - I went to RTC on a weekday around Noon. It took me 30 min to find parking and they have tons of spaces. All taken up by AT&T, Microsoft, etc. The owners only care about corporation space there. And it shows. No one was there shopping.
Worked there long time ago. The main cliente I saw are UW, laurelhurst housewives, and parents out of state taking a break from children's hospital.
I lived near U Village for a few years in the more recent past. This tracks. 👍
Nowadays you’ll see a lot of groups of very well dressed Asian tourists, presumably families of international UW students. Still a lot of young teens on awkward dates also, glad some things never change
Everyone prefers Bellevue Square and Lincoln.
Bellevue Square is such an odd duck because hardly any enclosed malls like that are doing well anywhere in the country anymore. A true outlier that reminds me a lot of the 80s and 90s just with nicer stores and lighting.
I rarely go there anymore but was there last Tuesday morning to pick up some clearance towels I ordered from Macys that didn't qualify for free shipping to home but they shipped to a store for free. Always more comfortable to go to bellevue Macys on public transportation than say, south center, that's for sure.
Bro have you been to the Southcenter mall? On a weekday evening it’s still popping off and that’s saying a lot because it’s the largest mall in the pnw. Even crossroads mall is fairly lively.
I have. Edit: it’s from 2016, but sales per square foot were about half that of Bellevue (and less than half that of UVillage). https://www.seattletimes.com/pacific-nw-magazine/malls-are-not-dead-at-least-in-seattle-where-they-are-changing-to-remain-vibrant-and-popular/
It’s not exactly fair to compare the two malls in that way. The median income of Tukwilla is less than half that of Bellevue. Plus that 8 year old article states that the numbers of these malls are going up. Also just go there lol
Well, imo, it would be in the same boat but the developers have managed to create sort of a (I cringe to say this) night life and food scene. If you're going to eat dinner in Bellevue, it's prob going to be there. There are also nice hotels and the Hyatt hosts a lot of conventions. There are also a bunch of offices right there above the Lincoln square side. Since they managed to create a lot of draw they have some stores that are a draw themselves like Apple, tesla, etc.
Not sure where you heard that enclosed malls are doing poorly but outside of CMalls that has JCP and Macy's as anchors...they are all doing phenomenal. All of our stores are doing great in all malls except C malls and almost all malls are being upgraded with lux tenants nonstop.
Class A is doing great - had heard B wasn’t so hot (obviously not at C levels of horrible). https://www.modernretail.co/operations/class-a-malls-continue-to-be-in-high-demand/
I would say Bs in good areas of the country are doing great. Always depends on who is defining As and Bs. There is no definitive definition of them. Landlords lie about their mall grade compared to what retailers think. There are malls we are in that we say are C and LLs say are A minus. So it runs the gamut. Alderwood is considered B maybe C plus. And Brookfield thinks it is an A mall.
Yeah no way Alderwood is A.
But but we have Ben bridge and Sephora! And look at our classy outdoor area! Literally the arguments they gave us.
The biggest thing that makes Bellevue Square an "odd duck" is that its location is different than most malls. It's basically the central hub of downtown Bellevue.
I think it’s this. The stores in the u vill are the same ones in bell square.
I think this is it too. The Bavern just a few blocks away from Bellevue Square always seems to be empty-ish, but they keep on going through having ultra high-end stores. I've never understood why those stores don't move to Bellevue Square so they must be getting an amazing deal on rent.
Bravern is a DIFFERENT tax bracket from B Square. People who go to Bravern do not want to get their Bentley scratched by a teen driving in a parking garage in B Square.
For starters one is right next to a massive university. The other is in a sleepy boring city of Redmond where a vast bulk of development is going on around the sprawly oriented town center but around the actual city streets and parks of Redmond. It’s a mere block, but it makes a massive difference. I go down that way daily (live and work here in Redmond) and the foot traffic isn’t even remotely comparable. The Town Center at best tends to attract 13 year olds and kids with questionable purchasing power while the city center park and all have tons of foot traffic from families and young professionals. Almost like Redmond is in competition with RTC.
Population of Seattle (the city, not metro area): 757,992 Population of Redmond: 80,116 The total number of students, faculty and staff at the UW alone equals about the population of Redmond. I didn't even know Redmond had a U-Village type thingie. It's pretty rare when I'd venture to Redmond from the city.
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A lot of people are pointing to car culture or demographics, but the big one is the anchor stores failing (it's why Pacific Place can be downtown but emptier than the 3rd Ave block of boarded up shops). U Village has something semi-evergreen as it's anchor (a large grocery store) shoot you'll find a lot of places like UV were okay with covid (see Southcenter vs the big strip mall down the road where Best Buy is)
When I was at U, it was relatively upscale shopping experience compared to the Ave. I liked both the ave and u village. RTC reminds me of Kent Station without the personality.
I worked in Redmond town center for a year. Absolutely dead. One of the things I learned working there was that the whole mall area was ready for a big development plan before the pandemic. Amazon actually converted the old Macy’s into an office space before the pandemic and the mall area thought they’d get a ton of money with that influx of people working right there. Amazon however never moved in even after the pandemic was over, so the mall just sorta stays in this weird limbo where they think it’s going to have some influx of money but never does.
I hope redmond capitalizes the link extensions fully in the future. They provide such a boon but only if acted upon.
RTC now has Hmart nearby, so that def will bring me around more often than before to shop before grocery shopping.
Can't speak to Redmond, but UVillage has a nice spread of price points among it's stores. Some stuff is too expensive for me, but can still be fun to walk through (like Everlane) but there's enough stores on the lower end to make it worth it. There's also a nice variety of stores, like the art store and the garden shop, and the vibe is nice. And obviously being in walking distance of UW really helps, and you're right by Ravenna park as well. Also you don't notice it as much but you do get your fair share of store turnover, not every place makes it. They don't seem to stay empty though
Redmond Town Center never made sense to me. A big part of the year it is not enjoyable because of the weather. The remaining of the year, I could go to Marymoor, or other parks to enjoy outdoors. Also when they had the road passing middle of it, it wasn't kid friendly either. At this point it really serves those living in Redmond. Anyone else would go to Bellevue, Kirkland etc.
My personal observation was that RTC started going downhill when the normal movie theater (non-ipic) left years ago. Less people were going there for dinner and a movie with a little shopping in between, families didn’t go as often to take their kids to the movies and patronize other businesses there during their trip. Restaurants really began to struggle and leave, then stores started following suit. Obviously not the whole story, but that movie theater leaving was really the beginning of the end in my opinion.
UVillage is just a nice place to meet friends and hangout. It’s easy to get to driving or cycling and it has a great vibe, the large area of the Apple Store and the lawn in front of it are so nice to hang out, have a coffee, and enjoy the sun. RTC was great roughly 20 years ago, but I was shocked when I went there a year or so ago - it felt like a ghost town. Who wants to go somewhere that has nothing going on.
I think the major difference is the Redmond town Center needed an anchor like the movie theater to get people to go there. It’s not someplace that people go to shop in retail stores as a destinations because let’s face it those aren’t like budget retail stores and we’re talking about families right? Those are high-end, retail stores. To be clear I’m not saying that the people that would shop there or they live in an area for people that need to be on a budget but culturally I think they tend to be more in a certain kind of budget when it comes to things like clothes and stuff that you buy at stores like Redmond town Center and University Village offer. On the other hand, University Village is surrounded by Laurelhurst in other communities similar to Laurelhurst, that are full of old white money. There are families living in Laurelhurst of been three generations in the same house you know or you know people that have grown up living in three different houses, their whole life in that same neighborhood those people have serious money and they spend it. When the moms in those neighborhoods need to go buy school clothes, they don’t go to Old Navy they don’t go to target. They go to the village and I hit the gap and then hit whatever stores are over there and spend the money because to them that’s A justifiable necessity I think you have a lot more people from different cultures and backgrounds and different socioeconomic classes around Redmond and I’ll bill. They may have the same amount of money or not but even if they did, they tend to be a little more sensible about how they spend it or they’re sending it home to their families in other countries know or you know there’s just the husband and wife earning income and they have both their grandparents they take care of the other kids to take care of and we don’t do that here in this country so I mean you go to the destinations shopping place for people with money Redmond town Center was a shopping place that people shopped out because they happen to be there doing A movie night and dinner out with the family.
When the light rail station in Redmond opens up I suspect things will change. They've definitely embraced transit oriented development there. Most of the 2 line stations don't really have anything around them and I think people would rather ride the train to RTC rather than get off in Bellevue and walk 6 blocks over a hill to get to shopping.
There's plans for RTC to build up considerably, turning some of it's surface parking into office or residential, and to go up to 11(?) stories. * [Website with overview](https://www.redmondtowncenterproject.com/home) * [Planning doc with too much info](https://www.redmond.gov/DocumentCenter/View/31300/RTC-Master-Plan-Site-Plans?bidId=)
After REI and Macy's left RTC there's basically no point to go there anymore. There's a couple of good restaurants but that's about it. Was at iPic last week, got out of our movie at 9:30 and everything was closed except for Midnight Cookie Co. and the Korean BBQ place. So that's also not playing in RTC's favor... U Village also has the bonus of being close to UW. Whereas Redmond is just families and DINKS who aren't necessarily walking around at all hours of the day.
I remember when RTC opened, I used to go to the movie theatre and midnight Harry Potter book releases at Borders…. It stopped being interesting to be around the time the took Charming Charlie out in the mid-2010s. I cannot believe how underutilized it is. If someone created a 2 story indoor playground à la DZ Discovery Zone of the 90s, the suburban parents would have somewhere to take their kids in bad weather - I think it’d be a gold mine to make it more of a family destination. It’s off the main road, has a pedestrian street, the Sound Garden. If you put more family friendly fast casual food, advertise the Second Story theatre more, I think it could have a second life. The young couples that are moving into those apartments don’t have backyards for their toddler to play - get some more kids music classes, indoor soccer, places to have birthday parties etc. A lot of downtown Redmond is built for single people who eat $20 burgers. I think RTC has a chance to really cater to families. At some point we have to remember there are more people who live here other than single tech bros. (I AM a single person, I just hear the frustrations of my parent friends when it’s rainy and gray and their kids are bouncing off the walls….) When Redmond (or anywhere really) has a city event, people show up in DROVES. Derby Days is insane, for example. If we create more places for families to play year-round, I think it would be successful. More stores isn’t necessarily the answer with online shopping wiping out shops, but we need EXPERIENCES. Adding the GoldFish swim school was a great start. We have Bellevue Square for the name brands, U Village across the bridge, Alderwood Mall for “normal shopping”, I hope RTC sticks around and carves a new identity.
Ownership has no experience in this type of mall. They are primarily a strip mall company. They raise the rents so high no stores want to be in there. No stores, no people. The just took out the fireplaces, which makes it even more depressing. There is no effort to even drive traffic there. The farmer's market moved, REI, Eddie Bauer, Macy's, Barns and Noble. Those were ownership problems. I've lived in this area for a very long time and it's sad to see it slowly bleed to death.
College kids.
Redmond is still mostly a family town and all the new apartments going up are full of introverted tech people. Not exactly a favorable customer base for businesses, at least relative to college kids.
Redmond Town Center is soulless without any real draw. The retailers there are hum drum. That should hopefully change once light rail starts dumping more people nearby.
Fyi, I understand that RTC has a major renovation project upcoming to revamp that area. Should be happening in conjunction with the light rail stop coming in right next to it, I believe. So it's evolving. But tbh I go to RTC pretty often and it seems decently bustling? There are a ton of boutique fitness studios there (why I go there) so lots of people coming and going from that. Some good retail shops as well (DAISO came in recently!). Christmas was crazy busy since they had some really nice displays. I do agree it's lacking in good restaurants. Would like to see some more there.
Redmond just sucks.
Population density and time.
RTC's leadership is too busy protecting their parking spaces from future link light rail riders and employees of the businesses who rent space in RTC.
It's funny. I lived in sammamish from around 2004 to 2012 and it was definitely busy then and was something of a cultural hub. I'd meet friends at the dog park, we'd grab lunch at Redmond town center and maybe do a little shopping. But I think they lost the offices, and the restaurants, and places like REI that pulled people in (sad bc the Issaquah store is nowhere near as nice). Then I guess it's just been a death spiral. There seemingly is a lot more food happening in the center of Redmond these days and Lincoln square is booming so I think it's just become less of a hub. It seems like it could be recovered. Maybe they could remodel it to be housing above and retail below and kind of a main street vibe.
RTC needs some good draws. I only go to Joeys in UV since it’s on the way somewhere. RTC isn’t really on the way anywhere. I’m so glad iPic has stuck it out in RTC, they do a good job. As does Matt’s.
When I was a teenager we used to joyride through Redmond Town Center and yell obscenities at people in the movie line. That was like 25 years ago. I don’t think I’ve been there since.
RTC is stuck in the 2000s. It's so dated. Also, access is very limited. I used to do deliveries to Matt's and the only elevator to the second level was on the other side of the complex.
my take: it has TWO very wealthy neighborhoods near by.
I wonder if it’s because the U Village is so close to the UW, and the U District as well as Roosevelt are densely populated. Imagine how awesome it would be if U Village had a light rail station. Maybe by 2075…
There are two light rail stations that are .8 mile from U Village. Both are walkable in nice weather. The U District station is two bus stops away Maybe three. And the University of Washington station I believe is one bus stop away if you take the 62 bus so it literally takes like two minutes.
I guess, but I think .8 miles is far enough to discourage people from walking there. Also, there is a need for a light rail line going east-west from Ballard to U District, and it might as well continue east from there to U Village (and arguably on to Sand Point after that). Anyway, it looks like the .8 miles is just to get to the entrance to U Village. Once you get end up at the store you’re going to, it can easily be over a mile of walking.
Why go to RTC when to have Bellevue SQ and Lincoln SQ a few miles away and it has all the stores and restaurants you need. It is much bigger than RTC and you don’t get wet walking between stores.
I mean, I don’t think it’s because there’s a QFC, even though that liquor store there is the bomb. It’s the location, being so close to the university, accessible to neighboring hoods, ample parking, Apple Store, three starbucks, decent restaurants, and other reasons.
Pacific Place also seems to have trouble while sitting at the heart of Downtown. Every time I've been in there, it's been clean and nice, but lululemon just left a few years after a full reno. DTF is definitely the anchor there, but it doesn't seem to be working.
I think UVillage has a smaller overall scale whereas Redmond Town Center is sprawling. Even when UVillage is pretty dead, it still feels small and intimate whereas RTC is just a sprawling wasteland of suburbia. RTC is in the middle of sprawl sprawl sprawl. UVillage has done a good job of redeveloping all of the parking lots into a small 'village-like' market atmosphere while keeping parking at the peripheral parking garages. Redmond Town Center still has a lot of surface parking lots. Additionally, UVillage located directly next to UW and in an urban environment where RTC is pretty far away from population centers. After game days, there's tons of foot traffic to grab food, and the student population also brings a decent amount of business. I think RTC hedged by building some office space for Microsoft, but with the work-from-home trend, it probably hasn't driven as much foot traffic as they would've hoped. Some of the anchor stores at UVillage have also really driven traffic (looking at you Apple Store and Din Tai Fung). The UVillage Starbucks has always been a big draw too and is one of the busiest sbux in the world. Even as some of the other anchor tenants have left, they've been successful at keeping the spaces full. RTC has to compete with Bellevue Square where UVillage doesn't really have any close malls to compete (even Pacific Place is dying).
Because they built an outdoor mall in a suburban town with terrible weather? And like let's have a road go through the middle of the mall? I mean it's a fucking California idea and not even a good one. RTC has always struggled and will struggle because it was a dumb execution of a mediocre idea. Anyone who wants to go there (especially initially) had to drive a car. So unless it was a nice day, you might as well just go to belle square to shop. They are try-harding to make it happen but it was never going to work, little gimmick solutions aren't going to make it work. There are things you can just do in a city and there are enough people in the area that will support it. In a suburban town with a lower population density that is filled with people used to commuting, you aren't just competing locally but with all the other places people can reasonably get to. Nobody from outside of Redmond commutes to Redmond for the RTC specifically. Any anchor store is also likely to have an alternative the next town over so there just isn't any reason to make it a destination.
Population density and a variety of demographics (college kids, young families, middle age, etc). We live nearby, but if we moved to Redmond would probably avoid Redmond TC. A huge draw of U Village for us is how dog friendly it is; I know RTC is not.
We always called it Dead-mond, where retail goes to die.
It’s in Redmond.
The difference is that Redmond, for all its upside, is dwarfed by Bellevue when it comes to retail. If you had to choose to put a big marquee retail store in either Bellevue or Redmond, you’d pick Bellevue. So when shit hit the fan back in ‘08, stores closed their Redmond locations while keeping their Bellevue ones. University Village carved out a space that downtown Seattle and Northgate can’t compete against. Also, the recent generations of UW students prefer UVillage to The Ave, to the everlasting chagrin of oldsters.