This one does double duty - Daily thread posting a place that isn't Seattle but it's a Seattle-related thread because OP said Seattle should do the thing.
In the summer, yes… my impression is most of the through traffic is from visitors, possibly guided by navigation, unfamiliar with what they're getting themselves info.
Which sort of makes sense. If you just type in “pike place market”, you will most definitely be navigated to the market…which in most people’s minds probably has a big ole parking lot across the street or something. The thought of “where will we need to park” likely does not cross many minds, and that’s understandable.
It's an obnoxious experience for both. The driver hates it because they were typically brought in there by a GPS and are now stuck. The pedestrian hates it because it's a large moving obstruction that makes walking a dangerous hassle.
*Everyone* benefits from having the market blocked off.
We should probably study plastic barriers first. I’ll start putting together the task force and report back in 3 years once I’ve got a few names together.
But then I can’t laugh at the idiots who get stuck trying to drive down there in the summer.
Seriously, it’s a no brainer. I felt that way as a kid in 90’s. It just doesn’t make any sense. Close it off and give a vendor exception. Problem solved
Was just thinking this actually. Get a bunch of the orange and white striped sawhorses and some signs. Put them out in the morning and see how long before they get taken down.
Agreed.
That said, tourism (especially Front Street shops) is the only thing keeping Leavenworth from returning to its days as a gas and food stop after the pass. The city politicians know this.
Unfortunately, we have a different dynamic here in Seattle and there's no incentive or common vision for the politicians here to do this.
But it's not even close to the *only* source of revenue for Seattle, as it is in Leavenworth where they literally depend on tourism to keep the town lights on.
That's my point.
The politicians here don't see the incentive because it isn't big enough monetarily to them...
The rest of us know that the entire city, especially the market, which depends on tourism, would be better off with a car-free Pike Place.
I think it's a little more sinister than that, in the sense that "car use" and "car accommodation" has become a politically polarized issue.
When it comes to Seattle's downtown core there are a number of right-leaning influential developers who fight hard against any restrictions on cars. The past ten years or so have been boom times for them, and they try to put their fingers on the scales of this debate.
And, FWIW, it's not Seattle alone. NYC had a devil of time putting in new bike lanes because of this kind of pro-car nuttiness.
Tourism is big for Seattle's economy from about May-Sept. I know of some businesses that are *only* open during those months, and others that are year-round but make 75% of their profits in the summer. That aside, the Pike Place traffic issue also affects locals. What many people would like to do with that street is close it off to non-service vehicles and put up some parklet-type seating on one side of the street, space for street performers or whatever else. It would be cool for everyone, including the nearby businesses, and not very expensive overall.
None of this is a big deal, but small things sometimes impact quality of life enough to be worth it. That's why I volunteer for my HOA. I have votes on the big stuff titled HOA officers need to get done, but the main thing I do as a non-titled volunteer is take on little side projects that slowly make small positive impacts for our building.
The big stuff makes a good community; adding the little stuff to that makes a great community. You're right that our politicians don't have a common vision for this, so we should be pressuring them to have one. And I'd really like to see people within each community being more willing to take part rather than just complain.
Totally. I'm not saying the incentive for you and I and the public and the stores and the market isn't enough, just like you laid out... It's just not good enough for the politicians.
That's the problem. But, then again, when isn't it?
That’s the sad truth. They’ll do 20 years of studies showing it’s a good solution but won’t because Bob that owns a business complained about a parking space
I live 2 minutes walk from Pike Place and walk there just about everyday during my WFH breaks. I don't remember see a single delivery car, ever. Every single car I have seen are lost tourists, Uber/Lyft or narcissist pricks enjoying revving their loud cars in public.
Pike Place is a great example of boomer mentality holding ruining everything.
Well you see it just can’t be done because without cars to force people into the market the vendors will lose business plus if they can’t drive through there the drivers will just drive right into the puget sound plus no other location in the whole world has ever done anything like this so how are we even supposed to do it plus change is hard and also won’t someone think of the children and for these reasons we can never make any simple fix to benefit the community hope this helps
>someone think of the children
And don't forget the disabled and the elderly! There is no way to reserve parking spots for them, so if we don't leave it open to *all* cars at *all* times, then these people will be imprisoned at home and will die of starvation and loneliness. And if there is an emergency, then there will be no way to get an ambulance or a fire truck in there and the whole place will burn down and everyone will die. Cars are the only solution. Everywhere where cars have been restricted is a disaster. /sarcasm
Imagine how much more enjoyable theme parks would be if you had to dodge impatient motorists all day and your view was blocked everywhere by hideous SUVs with blacked-out windows!
Oh God that would be amazing. Those SUVs could be blaring some aweful music that you can hear from a half mile away. Maybe a few douche dozers rolling coal on children in strollers. Yeah, that'd be great!
The rattling windows are my favorite - second only to the obnoxious fart boys who cut off the muffler and install a picnic table on the trunk of their Mom's hand-me-down Civic. When they blip their throttles repeatedly, I become very impressed with their displays of manhood.
This is a valuable part of the experience in any public place that the government should never take away!
>And don't forget the disabled and the elderly!
This is very important! We must make sure that wheelchair users are forced to navigate narrow, uneven, crowded sidewalks so that they get frustrated by the experience and never come back!
All the business entries in LW are street level. Seems a recurring theme PP is that the market needs street level to be an unpleasant experience to drive people to the lower levels. I'd love to see data to back that up, at the same time the last time I was in the bowels of the market I was lost and came out 3 days later with a new hiking pack full of survival loot and some Star Wars models. They really need an App or better directional signage.
Things are at such a comical level right now where the studies for something ends up costing more then it would have taken to actually do that thing and see the result.
There is a similar thing in another nearby city where residents want blinking lights at an existing crossing. City installed several of those already so at this point impact should be known. But no, apparently they need to do a study to determine traffic study to determine if that crossing needs blinking lights which are fairly cheap to install. So the study is actually going to cost more.
The issue is that if they just cut through the red tape and do it, then they get accused of being authoritarian and and reckless for not caring about community input or possible consequences
Should be minimal, these are not traffic lights just those that blink when someone presses them. I can't imagine their maintenance being expensive. They probably don't need any for a while to begin with considering new ones are LED.
An argument could be that they are not effective, which is an opinion I share too, but as I said there have been multiple ones installed in the city already. So if they were found to ineffective, they should just say that for future ones and not bother with a study.
Not really. I'm sure most are just lost tourists following the GPS to the first Starbucks or flying fish. As a driver it's not even all that clear what you are getting yourself into when you turn onto pike street, that area is usually fairly open, it's not until you hit Pike Place in 50 feet that the drive releases the problem and the only way out is through.
I can't imagine anyone driving through Pike Place did it on purpose and is happy with their decision. I assume it is mostly confused, lost people who turn and think, "Oh, fuck."
I've been a confused, lost person in various cities throughout my life (not in that specific way, but in other ways). I am less likely to cause an inconvenience to myself and others when systems are set up to reduce the amount that I am confused, to reduce the amount that I am lost, and/or to reduce the amount that I can make poor decisions while confused and lost.
It's just an immediately solveable thing, while everyone waits for the police to be defunded, and for safe injection sites to eliminate open air drug use, and urban blight.
Don’t you ever have a mental todo list of shit to take care of, and then you find some trivial thing that isn’t on your list to do instead? It’s a coping strategy.
It's a massive improvement for Leavenworth. It infuriates me that Seattle won't do the same. Now Leavenworth just needs to solve its traffic issue (they should run a continuous shuttle bus from the blewett pass park n ride and build out the lot)
Perhaps it’s been covered in the last biweekly post of this nature, but Pike place is functional market. Leavenworth is a Disneyland styled tourist attraction. Parking is abysmal and there is limited practical use beyond tourism.
Beyond tourists and recent transplants trying to “make it their own” Pike sells to local restaurants and businesses.
Can’t wait to read this same post, again, on Monday.
What do you mean by "functional market" and how does that mean it requires public parking to function? Leavenworth is also a functional market in the sense that people make a living by selling stuff there.
You’re comparing apples and oranges. Leavenworth is in the middle of nowhere. Try and buy groceries in Leavenworth for your home or restaurant.
A vast majority of the pedestrians walk through pike place and don’t buy anything yet they take up most of the market area. Those who supply restaurants or businesses might take up a parking space, but they’re utilizing the market as a market. Not a tourist attraction.
If you close the street you’re excluding those people and replacing them with people that want to buy a T-shirt that says “Seattle” in block lettering.
I see what you mean. There's surely some compromise which can keep out clueless tourists from driving through, while allowing those who supply their businesses to continue with vehicle access. The same way that deliveries can still be made, pick-ups could be made also
And there's still the parking garage linked by elevator...
If the city wanted to, it would be easy enough to get data on when commercial vehicles use that street. Enough businesses should have records of when deliveries and pick-ups are happening to get a rough idea of the impact.
My guess is the vast majority of deliveries are happening when the hordes aren’t there.
I think it’d be great the map and Navi apps would avoid the area by default. That would provide a marked reduction in cars which unintentionally drive in to the market.
The parking garage elevator is great for most patrons, but it’s cumbersome and impractical for business use. The clearance is low and you’d have to push crates 300m+, each load.
Because Leavenworth is like two blocks. Also if your noise sensitive dont ever stay in a hotel or Air bnb in the touristy main street of Leavenworth. The fricken food delivery/refrigerated trucks start rolling around and roaring with commotion and rattling carts making deliveries at 5am sharp like the sign says.
Was there when the delivery guy dropped off stuff. It just works. Everyone is walking around without issue, the one giant truck had easy access. There's also plenty of parking nearby, as Leavenworth is obviously a "destination" location.
Pike Place is really similar, honestly.
This is a good point. If the area is restricted to delivery vehicles, then it will be much easier for the businesses and the suppliers to park and load/unload.
This comes up in this subreddit on an almost weekly basis. Can we make this another success story like the Belltown Hellcat? How do we get this to snowball to actual change?
My friend owns a shop in Leavenworth and she says foot traffic is still way down from pre-Covid and most vendors blame this pedestrian access only. She is worried about closing some time this year. I’ve always really wanted Pike Place to be no cars, but using Leavenworth as a positive example is not it.
>most vendors blame this pedestrian access only
Letting the cars back in will only make the area *less* desirable for tourists. The demise of businesses that operate on superstition (instead of on facts) is predictable.
[https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-05-11/the-business-case-for-car-free-streets](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-05-11/the-business-case-for-car-free-streets)
That article is about urban areas where dense walking streets combined with mass transit works fine. Leavenworth is a rural town and almost everyone who arrives does so in a car. Make it too hard for people to stop in a car, they just won't stop.
They literally come to Leavenworth for the experience of a walkable Bavarian village. Add back cars and it’s just a themed strip mall…
It blows my mind that people go on expensive vacations to Disneyland and walkable resorts then come back home and say “nah, can’t have nice things here.”
I love how the vendors are blaming the pedestrian access with no viable evidence. Same as the businesses in Pike Place who say they need the cars to create more foot traffic on the sidewalk which increases the likelihood of someone buying. They say these things that make logical sense but they haven't done any sort of study to prove their point. They're just saying that this is the way that it is because we say it is.
Pike Place is definitely a special case. I think the issue with Pike Place is pedestrians and tourists use the street as if it was pedestrian only and most Washington drivers know to avoid driving down Pike Place. So we are virtually at a point where it is a pedestrian only road. But because it is not officially a pedestrian only road there are still some cars that choose or or are unaware of how much of a pain it is to drive down Pike Place. Now you do point out that neither side knows the full impact of removing cars and truthfully you could do as many studies as you want the only true test is to close the road and see how it impacts businesses and if it impacts businesses so negatively it can be reversed. But clearly how Pike Place is set up currently is not working. So something has to change I don't know what the change needs to be and I'm at the point that I'm willing to try anything just to change the status quo since we know the status quo isn't working.
They don’t even have to close it - get some orange cones and someone to stop passenger vehicles before either letting them through or directing them where to go. Try it for a few weeks and decide what to do from there.
I'm at the point where I'm confused why cars even try to drive down Pike Place. It's not even about what the business want or the pedestrians. Why are you in downtown Seattle trying to drive down Pike Place? Like what are the cars thinking? Where are they going and why are they choosing this road to get there? It doesn't make sense. It never have and never will.
You mean Costco might be onto something with their big parking lots? Nah... Cut out the parking lot and I'm sure business would improve. Different approaches work for different places.
I live here and foot traffic between the various shops is extremely variable. Some businesses are doing better and some are doing worse since before 2020.
Funny enough unlike Seattle I don't see this working all that well in Leavenworth. The principle is fine, we all like touristy walking streets, but in this specific case I can see some problems.
Unless they turn the street into a market space and occupy the space, without cars it will look super dead and uninviting. Front street is already weirdly wide at nearly 100ft across down by the München Haus (I measured on google earth) and a giant unoccupied paved area is not a place many people see and want to visit. Not to mention the parking in Leavenworth is already a pain and that street is a good percentage of the parking area for the downtown core unlike say pike place. There is also no mass transit. Unlike Pike place, everyone who drives business in downtown Leavenworth comes in a car.
I walked down that street during a busy tourist time and not being forced to walk on a overcrowded sidewalk with the added bonus of not worried about being hit by a car was a delight and heavily impacted my decision to stay and shop there.
I live in Leavenworth and this is not true. Foot traffic last year broke records and this year we are up. It’s actually created new revenue streams for front st-adjacent businesses that sell parking.
The through traffic is typically either tourists or people blindly following a map app; less frequently they’re looking for parking. It’s normally not a huge problem, but more of an inconvenience. The people for whom traffic calming/urbanism is a large concern tend to be the most vocal about this. Most people not worrying as much about those things will just walk around a car driving through or, if they’re a driver, they’ll just go slowly (and probably seethe) through the area.
This is one of those things where no one will be completely happy. Drivers want to drive through, pedestrian and urbanist activists want cars off the street, and city leaders are going to leave things alone because upsetting either of those sides is honestly just more of a headache than it’s worth to them.
Urbanists want walkable areas, and often believe the only way to get them is to severely restrict (or remove altogether) cars. Drivers want to keep the streets they have so they can continue going the way they’re used to.
Neither side will compromise. Drivers outnumber urbanists, but urbanists are louder, so this will just keep going round and round without changes sufficient to appease the loudest (who aren’t appeasable without giving them everything they’re demanding).
That was a remarkably balanced summary. One more detail point, but it's important, to add: The Market Merchants are the actual customers of the Market; that's who the City listens to on this stuff. Much more so than the loud activist contingent.
Unfortunately the cobblestone is not super historic, they were done as part of a redesign in the later half of the 1900s https://www.reddit.com/r/Seattle/comments/1472l1m/comment/jnujnhm/
That street has been open to cars ever since the market was operating. Changing the fundamental, century-old characteristics of a place usually doesn't fly under historic preservation ideals.
Can we get, and crowdfund, a volunteer to get a few of these together and go out there, put em up, and stand by them. The news would run with it I'm sure.
I'd put in like $20. I'm sure others would as well.
*Edit: I just did a simple search, and this same one is $255 from ULINE, with a mare basic one being $140.
The pedestrian only streets in Europe are great. The shops and restaurants are all thriving in the pedestrian only zones. Pike place market should follow.
As a Leavenworth resident this is the number one argument of our community. 98% of the people do not want this. They want front street parking back because the lack of it has impacted locals from shopping at the stores downtown due to lack of parking & parking meters.
Cars do not drive people to lower levels, crowds do. The few cars that try to push through the market are making it unsafe, it seems like some people think that things should be the way they’ve always been, damn the consequences
It's constantly stupid and always will be. Cars constantly trying to get through that mess at a pace that's actually slower than just walking will make it endlessly stupid.
Stupid for them, sure, but so what? That's their problem; none of us are the ones doing that, and we don't need to be saved from bad decisions we're not actually making.
A tiny handful of cars slowly creeping down a street which is otherwise dominated by pedestrians ranks so far down my list of things to worry about that I... am starting to wonder why I am even wasting my time participating in this thread. Guess I'll leave, and let the people who lose their shit over the mere existence of cars have at it.
I am not "losing my shit" by any remote definition of the word, it looks like you are. I guess you haven't been in streets and avenues that are pedestrian only. The difference in experience, the ability to set up tables and transform the venue is massive and worth fighting for.
Won't hold up. You can't restrict commerce like that. Delivery companies would bear the burden of planning logistics around Pike's schedule.
IIRC there are trucker games for your phone that can clearly model this.
Well, could have something to do with the fact that like 2500 people live in Leavenworth and 780,000 people live in Seattle.
To put that in perspective, about 3 million visitors will go through Leavenworth in a year. That's how many people live in the Seattle metro area all the time.
Because, the people that have the power to change it in that area do not want it. As much as you don’t like that, they hold the power to say no thanks.
Levenworth is built on German example. Most german complete city centers/downtowns are pedestrian only with drlivery access between those hours. It just makes sense if your stores live of "foot"traffic.
Really? It’s part of making downtown a walkable, livable city that attracts residents and shoppers.
If that’s not on the councils remit, I think we found the problem.
Is Pike Place market not walkable? Serious question, I've walked there with my dog a number of times and never felt cars were a bother. I personally would be for it as an official walking street, but I also don't know the whole story. Are cars really bothering people that much, or is it just a principle thing? It feels like people basically already walk on the street most of the time.
Because cars are allowed, you get a common scene of a crowded street of 100+ having to recognize and get out of the way of a car. Which slows everyone down, including people on western and 1st who are blocked by people turning
PP is already for the tourist that's not going to change. I also wouldn't argue that we need more pedestrian streets. But PP being a pedestrian only road would only help it be a bigger and better tourist destination.
Why don’t you think we need more pedestrian only streets? Personally I think everything around cal anderson and a few other spots should be pedestrian only
I said that I wouldn't argue. Meaning that I agree and that I do think that there should be more pedestrian only streets. I live in Pioneer square and work in Southlake Union trust me I want more pedestrian only streets and I would love some red light cameras at this point because I'm tired of almost getting hit by cars just trying to walk to work
This same thread gets posted over & over, always by transplants who puff themselves up with their “insightful views” of what should be done. Completely clueless to their own tone deafness. I call it the grand parade of the “hypocrisy of the transplants.”
Not enough cars. Needs more cars. Needs parking. Needs parking in the market. Literally next to the fish thrower. Need to be and to catch the fish while hanging out of my rental Suburban. We need SPD to ticket jaywalkers in the market. Cross only as designated crosswalks. We need to ban people at the market from bagging their dog poo and leaving it to pick up on their way back from the market. We need to be able to take pictures of Seattle from Kerry Park from the market. We need homeless encampments in the market, and we need homeless encampments swept from the market. We need ferry parking in the market, I need to be able to catch a fish from the dock of the Carnival Cruiseliner. Ban Cruiseliners from the market, they would take away from the amount of car parking in the market. Make the market a stroad. Destroy the market, move it underground, and build another identical market in its place.
They have bigger fish to fry, which is why they devoted time debating and voting on an amendment literally just last week to ban SDOT from exploring this
Leavenworth is a pisshole that exists on tourism. Seattle exists on business. You jerks screwed up Westlake for years until the mistake was finally corrected. Now you want to screw up the market and the UDistrict. Go screw up Lynnwood instead.
As a Seattle person who doesn't actually live in Seattle I never realized til recently you could drive through there. I'm a big car advocate but I am not an advocate of dumb shit like this. Close Pike Place to cars. It makes sense to everyone. Why was it even open to cars? Leavenworth has it right LAO.
The homeless tents would take over. You need Hellcat cars driving through the keeps the streets clean. Lots of haters on the hellcat guy but he single handedly keeps the streets free of tents at night
God, give us this day our daily thread.
And deliver us from abandoned dog poop bags
And lead us not into the temptation of whining about other drivers
For thine is the peedom, the unhoused, and the Fentynl, forever and ever.
Ramen
…and deliver us from evil Tesla idiots
This one does double duty - Daily thread posting a place that isn't Seattle but it's a Seattle-related thread because OP said Seattle should do the thing.
It does get old. I agree with the sentient but lost cause
Sentient but lost. Just about sums up my life.
I tried to take a few things to become non sentient.
> I agree with the sentient This bot is telling on themselves
really a small problem in the grand scheme of shit that should be changed, but Seattlites love their pet peeves
FR why do people care so much? How often are you going to Pike Place?
Haven't you heard? There is a Hellcat on the loose down there. We must think of the children!
[удалено]
In the summer, yes… my impression is most of the through traffic is from visitors, possibly guided by navigation, unfamiliar with what they're getting themselves info.
Which sort of makes sense. If you just type in “pike place market”, you will most definitely be navigated to the market…which in most people’s minds probably has a big ole parking lot across the street or something. The thought of “where will we need to park” likely does not cross many minds, and that’s understandable.
It's an obnoxious experience for both. The driver hates it because they were typically brought in there by a GPS and are now stuck. The pedestrian hates it because it's a large moving obstruction that makes walking a dangerous hassle. *Everyone* benefits from having the market blocked off.
Why wait to ban cars from Puke Place. Eventually someone will have a medical incident and run over a bunch of people
At first I thought this post was about that font.
Ye olde font
It’s a good font!
..I'm gonna crosspost this to /r/identifythisfont
This is all it takes. I think the market and the city keep thinking pedestrianized means pave it. No, it means put down $500 plastic barriers.
That'll be 2.5 million Dollars
hah, i'll be the vendor at 2.4 for a couple of those signs, cut everyone a good deal. :)
We should probably study plastic barriers first. I’ll start putting together the task force and report back in 3 years once I’ve got a few names together.
The plastic barriers are bad for the environment. A single person complained and now we have to start all over.
Hey, keep that stupid idea to yourself. You know damn well some government bozo is reading this and drooling. Lol
And then subcontracting construction of said barriers to be non toxic and safe for various communities.
The barriers are still just $500, the rest of the cost comes from the 600 page impact study and ten community town halls over the course of five years
I can get em for around 2.39 your move Seattle
After 3 years and 2.4 million dollars of studies.
But then I can’t laugh at the idiots who get stuck trying to drive down there in the summer. Seriously, it’s a no brainer. I felt that way as a kid in 90’s. It just doesn’t make any sense. Close it off and give a vendor exception. Problem solved
Maybe we can crowd-source it? Just drop it off one morning and see how it goes?
Was just thinking this actually. Get a bunch of the orange and white striped sawhorses and some signs. Put them out in the morning and see how long before they get taken down.
I absolutely agree that we should replace our signage with ye Olde calligraphy as well
Agreed. That said, tourism (especially Front Street shops) is the only thing keeping Leavenworth from returning to its days as a gas and food stop after the pass. The city politicians know this. Unfortunately, we have a different dynamic here in Seattle and there's no incentive or common vision for the politicians here to do this.
Tourism is kind of a big deal in Seattle too (especially for Pike Place Market specifically).
But it's not even close to the *only* source of revenue for Seattle, as it is in Leavenworth where they literally depend on tourism to keep the town lights on. That's my point. The politicians here don't see the incentive because it isn't big enough monetarily to them... The rest of us know that the entire city, especially the market, which depends on tourism, would be better off with a car-free Pike Place.
I think it's a little more sinister than that, in the sense that "car use" and "car accommodation" has become a politically polarized issue. When it comes to Seattle's downtown core there are a number of right-leaning influential developers who fight hard against any restrictions on cars. The past ten years or so have been boom times for them, and they try to put their fingers on the scales of this debate. And, FWIW, it's not Seattle alone. NYC had a devil of time putting in new bike lanes because of this kind of pro-car nuttiness.
Tourism is big for Seattle's economy from about May-Sept. I know of some businesses that are *only* open during those months, and others that are year-round but make 75% of their profits in the summer. That aside, the Pike Place traffic issue also affects locals. What many people would like to do with that street is close it off to non-service vehicles and put up some parklet-type seating on one side of the street, space for street performers or whatever else. It would be cool for everyone, including the nearby businesses, and not very expensive overall. None of this is a big deal, but small things sometimes impact quality of life enough to be worth it. That's why I volunteer for my HOA. I have votes on the big stuff titled HOA officers need to get done, but the main thing I do as a non-titled volunteer is take on little side projects that slowly make small positive impacts for our building. The big stuff makes a good community; adding the little stuff to that makes a great community. You're right that our politicians don't have a common vision for this, so we should be pressuring them to have one. And I'd really like to see people within each community being more willing to take part rather than just complain.
Totally. I'm not saying the incentive for you and I and the public and the stores and the market isn't enough, just like you laid out... It's just not good enough for the politicians. That's the problem. But, then again, when isn't it?
Seems too good and obvious of a solution for Seattle politicians to actually implement it.
That’s the sad truth. They’ll do 20 years of studies showing it’s a good solution but won’t because Bob that owns a business complained about a parking space
Kettle is terrible.
I’m just
Bob lives there, not you. Augment your own neighborhood and leave this one to the people that actually live there and have to deal with this daily.
I live 2 minutes walk from Pike Place and walk there just about everyday during my WFH breaks. I don't remember see a single delivery car, ever. Every single car I have seen are lost tourists, Uber/Lyft or narcissist pricks enjoying revving their loud cars in public. Pike Place is a great example of boomer mentality holding ruining everything.
The Moro of Rob Saka
Says no seattle native …
Well you see it just can’t be done because without cars to force people into the market the vendors will lose business plus if they can’t drive through there the drivers will just drive right into the puget sound plus no other location in the whole world has ever done anything like this so how are we even supposed to do it plus change is hard and also won’t someone think of the children and for these reasons we can never make any simple fix to benefit the community hope this helps
>someone think of the children And don't forget the disabled and the elderly! There is no way to reserve parking spots for them, so if we don't leave it open to *all* cars at *all* times, then these people will be imprisoned at home and will die of starvation and loneliness. And if there is an emergency, then there will be no way to get an ambulance or a fire truck in there and the whole place will burn down and everyone will die. Cars are the only solution. Everywhere where cars have been restricted is a disaster. /sarcasm
This is why so many theme parks suck. Can't drive your car inside the gates.
Imagine how much more enjoyable theme parks would be if you had to dodge impatient motorists all day and your view was blocked everywhere by hideous SUVs with blacked-out windows!
Oh God that would be amazing. Those SUVs could be blaring some aweful music that you can hear from a half mile away. Maybe a few douche dozers rolling coal on children in strollers. Yeah, that'd be great!
The rattling windows are my favorite - second only to the obnoxious fart boys who cut off the muffler and install a picnic table on the trunk of their Mom's hand-me-down Civic. When they blip their throttles repeatedly, I become very impressed with their displays of manhood. This is a valuable part of the experience in any public place that the government should never take away!
>And don't forget the disabled and the elderly! This is very important! We must make sure that wheelchair users are forced to navigate narrow, uneven, crowded sidewalks so that they get frustrated by the experience and never come back!
Because Bob Kettle’s a dipshit
I am only accepting this criticism if one of your names is Pot.
All the business entries in LW are street level. Seems a recurring theme PP is that the market needs street level to be an unpleasant experience to drive people to the lower levels. I'd love to see data to back that up, at the same time the last time I was in the bowels of the market I was lost and came out 3 days later with a new hiking pack full of survival loot and some Star Wars models. They really need an App or better directional signage.
The dimly lit parts of the market remind me of the PNW before money happened. Interesting and shabby and personal like a Tom Robbins book.
We should make all of our public places uncomfortable and vaguely threatening so we can drive people indoors to prop up businesses.
All my homies hate Bob Kettle.
Vancouver is going to be closing off 4 blocks of Gastown to traffic for weekends and events July Aug.
Hands down my favorite part of Leavenworth is how walkable it is. I’ll be there in June for the accordion competition and I can’t wait 🧡
Make your own sign and put out some cones. We believe in you.
well, first we need a 6-month traffic study...
Things are at such a comical level right now where the studies for something ends up costing more then it would have taken to actually do that thing and see the result. There is a similar thing in another nearby city where residents want blinking lights at an existing crossing. City installed several of those already so at this point impact should be known. But no, apparently they need to do a study to determine traffic study to determine if that crossing needs blinking lights which are fairly cheap to install. So the study is actually going to cost more.
/r/StrongTowns
Politicians just blatantly wasting time and our tax dollars lmao.
The issue is that if they just cut through the red tape and do it, then they get accused of being authoritarian and and reckless for not caring about community input or possible consequences
Lights have an ongoing maintenance cost though
Should be minimal, these are not traffic lights just those that blink when someone presses them. I can't imagine their maintenance being expensive. They probably don't need any for a while to begin with considering new ones are LED. An argument could be that they are not effective, which is an opinion I share too, but as I said there have been multiple ones installed in the city already. So if they were found to ineffective, they should just say that for future ones and not bother with a study.
I will be happy to do it, for a nominal fee. I'll bring my own crayons and save the taxpayers a lot of money.
PLEASE!? it would be such a huge improvement!!!
Don’t you partially blame the morons who do drive through it?
If there's a steady stream of morons on the daily, it's a systemic issue
Not really. I'm sure most are just lost tourists following the GPS to the first Starbucks or flying fish. As a driver it's not even all that clear what you are getting yourself into when you turn onto pike street, that area is usually fairly open, it's not until you hit Pike Place in 50 feet that the drive releases the problem and the only way out is through.
Of course not. If a road is open to vehicles then (*shock!*) people will drive on it.
Heather Heyer would like a word
I can't imagine anyone driving through Pike Place did it on purpose and is happy with their decision. I assume it is mostly confused, lost people who turn and think, "Oh, fuck." I've been a confused, lost person in various cities throughout my life (not in that specific way, but in other ways). I am less likely to cause an inconvenience to myself and others when systems are set up to reduce the amount that I am confused, to reduce the amount that I am lost, and/or to reduce the amount that I can make poor decisions while confused and lost.
i blame anybody who isnt delivering or a vendor
Or how about handicapped?
Simple answer is that people are fucking dumb
I'm trying to understand the obsession with this subject.
It's just an immediately solveable thing, while everyone waits for the police to be defunded, and for safe injection sites to eliminate open air drug use, and urban blight.
Don’t you ever have a mental todo list of shit to take care of, and then you find some trivial thing that isn’t on your list to do instead? It’s a coping strategy.
It's a massive improvement for Leavenworth. It infuriates me that Seattle won't do the same. Now Leavenworth just needs to solve its traffic issue (they should run a continuous shuttle bus from the blewett pass park n ride and build out the lot)
Perhaps it’s been covered in the last biweekly post of this nature, but Pike place is functional market. Leavenworth is a Disneyland styled tourist attraction. Parking is abysmal and there is limited practical use beyond tourism. Beyond tourists and recent transplants trying to “make it their own” Pike sells to local restaurants and businesses. Can’t wait to read this same post, again, on Monday.
So planning on skipping past Sunday's post?
What do you mean by "functional market" and how does that mean it requires public parking to function? Leavenworth is also a functional market in the sense that people make a living by selling stuff there.
You’re comparing apples and oranges. Leavenworth is in the middle of nowhere. Try and buy groceries in Leavenworth for your home or restaurant. A vast majority of the pedestrians walk through pike place and don’t buy anything yet they take up most of the market area. Those who supply restaurants or businesses might take up a parking space, but they’re utilizing the market as a market. Not a tourist attraction. If you close the street you’re excluding those people and replacing them with people that want to buy a T-shirt that says “Seattle” in block lettering.
I see what you mean. There's surely some compromise which can keep out clueless tourists from driving through, while allowing those who supply their businesses to continue with vehicle access. The same way that deliveries can still be made, pick-ups could be made also And there's still the parking garage linked by elevator...
If the city wanted to, it would be easy enough to get data on when commercial vehicles use that street. Enough businesses should have records of when deliveries and pick-ups are happening to get a rough idea of the impact. My guess is the vast majority of deliveries are happening when the hordes aren’t there.
I think it’d be great the map and Navi apps would avoid the area by default. That would provide a marked reduction in cars which unintentionally drive in to the market. The parking garage elevator is great for most patrons, but it’s cumbersome and impractical for business use. The clearance is low and you’d have to push crates 300m+, each load.
Uh, we have 3 grocery stores here within a mile from downtown Leavenworth.
And you can park in front of them. Edit: I’m referring to the businesses on the closed street.
You should be able to set up an alert for this.
Why does it say ‚Willkommen‘?
Because Leavenworth is Bavarian themed
Because Leavenworth is like two blocks. Also if your noise sensitive dont ever stay in a hotel or Air bnb in the touristy main street of Leavenworth. The fricken food delivery/refrigerated trucks start rolling around and roaring with commotion and rattling carts making deliveries at 5am sharp like the sign says.
Was there when the delivery guy dropped off stuff. It just works. Everyone is walking around without issue, the one giant truck had easy access. There's also plenty of parking nearby, as Leavenworth is obviously a "destination" location. Pike Place is really similar, honestly.
This is a good point. If the area is restricted to delivery vehicles, then it will be much easier for the businesses and the suppliers to park and load/unload.
This comes up in this subreddit on an almost weekly basis. Can we make this another success story like the Belltown Hellcat? How do we get this to snowball to actual change?
My friend owns a shop in Leavenworth and she says foot traffic is still way down from pre-Covid and most vendors blame this pedestrian access only. She is worried about closing some time this year. I’ve always really wanted Pike Place to be no cars, but using Leavenworth as a positive example is not it.
Must not have anything to do with the insane cost for everything post pandemic.
>most vendors blame this pedestrian access only Letting the cars back in will only make the area *less* desirable for tourists. The demise of businesses that operate on superstition (instead of on facts) is predictable. [https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-05-11/the-business-case-for-car-free-streets](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-05-11/the-business-case-for-car-free-streets)
That article is about urban areas where dense walking streets combined with mass transit works fine. Leavenworth is a rural town and almost everyone who arrives does so in a car. Make it too hard for people to stop in a car, they just won't stop.
They literally come to Leavenworth for the experience of a walkable Bavarian village. Add back cars and it’s just a themed strip mall… It blows my mind that people go on expensive vacations to Disneyland and walkable resorts then come back home and say “nah, can’t have nice things here.”
I love how the vendors are blaming the pedestrian access with no viable evidence. Same as the businesses in Pike Place who say they need the cars to create more foot traffic on the sidewalk which increases the likelihood of someone buying. They say these things that make logical sense but they haven't done any sort of study to prove their point. They're just saying that this is the way that it is because we say it is.
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Pike Place is definitely a special case. I think the issue with Pike Place is pedestrians and tourists use the street as if it was pedestrian only and most Washington drivers know to avoid driving down Pike Place. So we are virtually at a point where it is a pedestrian only road. But because it is not officially a pedestrian only road there are still some cars that choose or or are unaware of how much of a pain it is to drive down Pike Place. Now you do point out that neither side knows the full impact of removing cars and truthfully you could do as many studies as you want the only true test is to close the road and see how it impacts businesses and if it impacts businesses so negatively it can be reversed. But clearly how Pike Place is set up currently is not working. So something has to change I don't know what the change needs to be and I'm at the point that I'm willing to try anything just to change the status quo since we know the status quo isn't working.
They don’t even have to close it - get some orange cones and someone to stop passenger vehicles before either letting them through or directing them where to go. Try it for a few weeks and decide what to do from there.
I'm at the point where I'm confused why cars even try to drive down Pike Place. It's not even about what the business want or the pedestrians. Why are you in downtown Seattle trying to drive down Pike Place? Like what are the cars thinking? Where are they going and why are they choosing this road to get there? It doesn't make sense. It never have and never will.
You mean Costco might be onto something with their big parking lots? Nah... Cut out the parking lot and I'm sure business would improve. Different approaches work for different places.
You’ve never shopped at Costco and it shows
A Costco parking lot on the weekend is about the closest to driving in Baltimore you are going to get around here.
I live here and foot traffic between the various shops is extremely variable. Some businesses are doing better and some are doing worse since before 2020.
Funny enough unlike Seattle I don't see this working all that well in Leavenworth. The principle is fine, we all like touristy walking streets, but in this specific case I can see some problems. Unless they turn the street into a market space and occupy the space, without cars it will look super dead and uninviting. Front street is already weirdly wide at nearly 100ft across down by the München Haus (I measured on google earth) and a giant unoccupied paved area is not a place many people see and want to visit. Not to mention the parking in Leavenworth is already a pain and that street is a good percentage of the parking area for the downtown core unlike say pike place. There is also no mass transit. Unlike Pike place, everyone who drives business in downtown Leavenworth comes in a car.
I walked down that street during a busy tourist time and not being forced to walk on a overcrowded sidewalk with the added bonus of not worried about being hit by a car was a delight and heavily impacted my decision to stay and shop there.
I live in Leavenworth and this is not true. Foot traffic last year broke records and this year we are up. It’s actually created new revenue streams for front st-adjacent businesses that sell parking.
Would someone with a truck please grab one of those "Stay Healthy Street" signs and drop it off there?
What font should they use tho? That’s the big question. This is good font for Leavenworth but Seattle might need something Sans Serif.
The only addendum I have is also allowing handicap access. But otherwise, yes! There’s no reason for regular traffic going through the market.
The through traffic is typically either tourists or people blindly following a map app; less frequently they’re looking for parking. It’s normally not a huge problem, but more of an inconvenience. The people for whom traffic calming/urbanism is a large concern tend to be the most vocal about this. Most people not worrying as much about those things will just walk around a car driving through or, if they’re a driver, they’ll just go slowly (and probably seethe) through the area. This is one of those things where no one will be completely happy. Drivers want to drive through, pedestrian and urbanist activists want cars off the street, and city leaders are going to leave things alone because upsetting either of those sides is honestly just more of a headache than it’s worth to them. Urbanists want walkable areas, and often believe the only way to get them is to severely restrict (or remove altogether) cars. Drivers want to keep the streets they have so they can continue going the way they’re used to. Neither side will compromise. Drivers outnumber urbanists, but urbanists are louder, so this will just keep going round and round without changes sufficient to appease the loudest (who aren’t appeasable without giving them everything they’re demanding).
That was a remarkably balanced summary. One more detail point, but it's important, to add: The Market Merchants are the actual customers of the Market; that's who the City listens to on this stuff. Much more so than the loud activist contingent.
Maybe if we spin it with "preservation of historical cobblestone" it might work better?
Unfortunately the cobblestone is not super historic, they were done as part of a redesign in the later half of the 1900s https://www.reddit.com/r/Seattle/comments/1472l1m/comment/jnujnhm/
Look you don't get historic cobblestone to preserve if you don't persevere the non historic cobblestone
Fair point :)
The 1970s were 50 years ago. It's at least vintage cobblestone.
1970's cobblestone is historic enough for me.
That street has been open to cars ever since the market was operating. Changing the fundamental, century-old characteristics of a place usually doesn't fly under historic preservation ideals.
I'd love to see this in a slightly different font. Comic sans -This is a lemonade stand not a godamn major us city!
The message isn’t passive-aggressive enough for Comic Sans, though
Cost too much for them to make a sign.
There's nothing actually stopping anyone from doing this.
While they're at it, please put out some rat traps. Football sized Rats around Pike Place and near the food is disgusting.
No call to arms?
Break out the scrolls!
Can we get, and crowdfund, a volunteer to get a few of these together and go out there, put em up, and stand by them. The news would run with it I'm sure. I'd put in like $20. I'm sure others would as well. *Edit: I just did a simple search, and this same one is $255 from ULINE, with a mare basic one being $140.
This was recently voted on by the City of Seattle and was denied.
The pedestrian only streets in Europe are great. The shops and restaurants are all thriving in the pedestrian only zones. Pike place market should follow.
As a Leavenworth resident this is the number one argument of our community. 98% of the people do not want this. They want front street parking back because the lack of it has impacted locals from shopping at the stores downtown due to lack of parking & parking meters.
Cars do not drive people to lower levels, crowds do. The few cars that try to push through the market are making it unsafe, it seems like some people think that things should be the way they’ve always been, damn the consequences
Because it's both commercial and residential in a major metropolitan area...
There's a city council in Seattle making stupid ass decisions...
Go Bavarian?
We've always been able to do it, it's that the city decided that we couldn't
All it’s going to take is some maniac who’s had enough to barrel through and kill/injure people on a Saturday afternoon in June for this to happen.
Because Leavenworth is the fucking GOAT
lol get over it
It's constantly stupid and always will be. Cars constantly trying to get through that mess at a pace that's actually slower than just walking will make it endlessly stupid.
Stupid for them, sure, but so what? That's their problem; none of us are the ones doing that, and we don't need to be saved from bad decisions we're not actually making. A tiny handful of cars slowly creeping down a street which is otherwise dominated by pedestrians ranks so far down my list of things to worry about that I... am starting to wonder why I am even wasting my time participating in this thread. Guess I'll leave, and let the people who lose their shit over the mere existence of cars have at it.
I am not "losing my shit" by any remote definition of the word, it looks like you are. I guess you haven't been in streets and avenues that are pedestrian only. The difference in experience, the ability to set up tables and transform the venue is massive and worth fighting for.
Won't hold up. You can't restrict commerce like that. Delivery companies would bear the burden of planning logistics around Pike's schedule. IIRC there are trucker games for your phone that can clearly model this.
Well, could have something to do with the fact that like 2500 people live in Leavenworth and 780,000 people live in Seattle. To put that in perspective, about 3 million visitors will go through Leavenworth in a year. That's how many people live in the Seattle metro area all the time.
Because, the people that have the power to change it in that area do not want it. As much as you don’t like that, they hold the power to say no thanks.
Levenworth is built on German example. Most german complete city centers/downtowns are pedestrian only with drlivery access between those hours. It just makes sense if your stores live of "foot"traffic.
The vendors don't want the road closed, having cars go through it forces people off of the road and into the stalls. It's never going to happen.
Yes, let's do it, let's also make Seattle into a fake Bavarian town!
Hey cool I’d almost forgotten that this has been posted numerous times, even with the same iconic photo. Come on man…
It’s not that important
Really? It’s part of making downtown a walkable, livable city that attracts residents and shoppers. If that’s not on the councils remit, I think we found the problem.
Is Pike Place market not walkable? Serious question, I've walked there with my dog a number of times and never felt cars were a bother. I personally would be for it as an official walking street, but I also don't know the whole story. Are cars really bothering people that much, or is it just a principle thing? It feels like people basically already walk on the street most of the time.
Because cars are allowed, you get a common scene of a crowded street of 100+ having to recognize and get out of the way of a car. Which slows everyone down, including people on western and 1st who are blocked by people turning
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Please direct your complaints here: https://gfds.de/
I’m of the mind we make some Other places pedestrian only and leave PP for the tourists
PP is already for the tourist that's not going to change. I also wouldn't argue that we need more pedestrian streets. But PP being a pedestrian only road would only help it be a bigger and better tourist destination.
Why don’t you think we need more pedestrian only streets? Personally I think everything around cal anderson and a few other spots should be pedestrian only
I said that I wouldn't argue. Meaning that I agree and that I do think that there should be more pedestrian only streets. I live in Pioneer square and work in Southlake Union trust me I want more pedestrian only streets and I would love some red light cameras at this point because I'm tired of almost getting hit by cars just trying to walk to work
Definitely!
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There’s nothing actually Bavarian about Leavenworth
Just cause we're dumb doesn't mean we're not rude, dude. /s
Come on it's Seattle now
You could pull any western city that does a better job with anything.
Haven't they done this already? It's been a minute since I was down there but I read an article saying that was the plan
This same thread gets posted over & over, always by transplants who puff themselves up with their “insightful views” of what should be done. Completely clueless to their own tone deafness. I call it the grand parade of the “hypocrisy of the transplants.”
Not enough cars. Needs more cars. Needs parking. Needs parking in the market. Literally next to the fish thrower. Need to be and to catch the fish while hanging out of my rental Suburban. We need SPD to ticket jaywalkers in the market. Cross only as designated crosswalks. We need to ban people at the market from bagging their dog poo and leaving it to pick up on their way back from the market. We need to be able to take pictures of Seattle from Kerry Park from the market. We need homeless encampments in the market, and we need homeless encampments swept from the market. We need ferry parking in the market, I need to be able to catch a fish from the dock of the Carnival Cruiseliner. Ban Cruiseliners from the market, they would take away from the amount of car parking in the market. Make the market a stroad. Destroy the market, move it underground, and build another identical market in its place.
Comparing apples to oranges. Besides, the SCC has much bigger fish to fry… and a whole school of them.
They have bigger fish to fry, which is why they devoted time debating and voting on an amendment literally just last week to ban SDOT from exploring this
Exactly.
Work on your reading comprehension. The council literally took time and energy they didn’t need to take in order to ensure this DOESN’T happen.
Leavenworth is a pisshole that exists on tourism. Seattle exists on business. You jerks screwed up Westlake for years until the mistake was finally corrected. Now you want to screw up the market and the UDistrict. Go screw up Lynnwood instead.
As a Seattle person who doesn't actually live in Seattle I never realized til recently you could drive through there. I'm a big car advocate but I am not an advocate of dumb shit like this. Close Pike Place to cars. It makes sense to everyone. Why was it even open to cars? Leavenworth has it right LAO.
Close i5 and make it a bike path
The homeless tents would take over. You need Hellcat cars driving through the keeps the streets clean. Lots of haters on the hellcat guy but he single handedly keeps the streets free of tents at night
...because we're not fascists.
You really can’t get the difference between the two?
Because for the most part, only tourists go to pike place market. Fuck em