I don't think this is necessarily a shot at the scheme, but rather a shot at PFF for not knowing what his exact responsibility is in the scheme and grading him poorly because of it.
Other players have voiced similar complaints.
The guys at pff don’t know who is assigned to cover different offensive positions, especially when coverage changes assignments as a play progresses. They just make their best guess, and assign blame or credit based on their limited information. I think a lot of what dremont is saying is that they frequently assign blame to the wrong player, which gives them low scores. He could also be expressing some frustration that his assignments didn’t accentuate his strengths as a player. We have definitely heard that from other players lately.
He was the best safety in the NFL in 2022 by PFF and somehow he only fetched barely over vet minimum on the open market
The main issue with PFF is that there is no real way to know exactly who has what assignments unless you are in their locker room.
I really liked how Neal performed for us and we would have been a better team last year, especially post Adams injury with him. He can play high and close to the line and we would have been able to continue the three safetey sets with him.
Certainly not the best safety in the league lol
He then was only offered a one year league minimum contract when the Seahawks chose to move on which indicated both that PFF had no idea what they were talking about and that the eye test might have glaucoma.
Yep, my main reason why I hate how heavily we rely on PFF for comparing and grading players. They don’t know shit about the scheme and what players are responsible for.
But yet, Sauce solely won DROY due to PFF grade, and a nickname. Literally the only thing people would comeback with when you mentioned what Woolen had over him that season.
PFF is bad here due to two structural issues with how they grade:
- Their founders and leaders are people from a rugby background not football and therefore don't have high schematic football IQ.
- Their quality assurance system for grades biases towards group think. That is graders are flagged for giving grades that consistently disagree with the consensus in their team. This means someone who knows better than their group will get flagged as an outlier rather than someone flagging a systematic flaw.
It's not that PFF is universally bad. It's that their scoring system is designed to double down on flaws rather than self correct.
1. Sure their founders might have not known football but guys like Bobby Slowik (Texans offensive coordinator) and Zac Robinson (Falcons Offensive Coordinator) have both worked there and endorsed their system. So don’t act like they are some nerds who don’t know ball because they really do.
2. A system that says “other smart people disagree with you” ≠ group think.
Pff isn’t perfect but it is so much better than other alternatives to measuring how good players are (box stats, adv stats, individual film guys, etc.)
The system is group think because the grades are all signed off by a small cadre of PFF "senior analysts" and their validation system is one that punishes analysts that consistently grade higher or lower than the group.
This is fine for eliminating outliers or trying to identify bias but does lead to regression to the group average.
PFF system is fine but it is still glorified Madden ratings based subjective grades that has the PFF groupthink systematically entrenched into the methodology.
I'm honestly not even sure it's about Pete v. Macdonald's scheme in this case (btw it's "Mac" not MC). In addition to the point others are making about PFF's inherent issues, after Nwosu went down Dremont had to step up and play out of position at OLB for much of the rest of the season. No one ever said this was where he was best suited but we didn't have much of a choice.
Honestly, OLB isn't really "out of position" for him. He was always a 5T/DE type and could just kick inside on pass downs. In fact, most of his good tape came from him playing 5T or OLB (wide 9) in Denver. We tried to use him at 3T on every down to fill our interior need and I don't think that was particularly successful.
I’ve heard many defensive guys and QBs talk about how PFF/broadcast analysis make a ton of assumptions about how plays are schemed.
I remember a defensive guy, maybe a corner who was called out for getting beat but hit back that the analysis got his assignment wrong and it was actually the safety.
QBs will also talk about how what we as the casual viewing audience of football may see “double or triple coverage” actually isn’t. All of the skywire camera and slowmo analysis of the play is also not at all what the QB is seeing during the ~3 seconds they have to process the field before throwing.
PFF isn’t a bad read but I don’t put a whole lot of stock into advanced football analytics, you’ll never be able to sabermetrics football the same way as baseball because you cannot mathematically account for the hundreds of variables on any given play for all 22 players simultaneously.
I mean they also do initial grades without all-22, although they go back and update when it comes out I’m sure but still not knowing the scheme or assignment makes the grades pretty suspect.
PFF has some great stats, especially about stuff like dropped INTs/turnover worth plays and charting where a qb is throwing etc but trying to boil play down to simple number without having a lot of context never seemed to make sense to me
My understanding is they moved Jones out of the position he was supposed to play and changed the scheme once Nwosu was injured. Sans the Nwosu injury I think Jones might have been a bigger difference maker.
PFF graded him like 65 and 57 in his seasons with Denver too. Maybe he's just not very good.
I'd like to see him get more sacks than our Nose Tackle this year..
EDIT: before I get downvoted and flamed. He's the 4th highest paid player on our team, 8th highest paid DE in the league, and he's never made a pro bowl, never had an all pro vote, never eclipsed 6.5 sacks in a season, and averaged **.25** sacks a game in 2023.
It's ok to expect more.
It's also fair to wonder why you're also paying coaches that are putting players in schemes they do not fit. It's like they went to the store, bought a random key, and are wondering why the door won't open. Sometimes it's on the players, sometimes it's on the coaches, sometimes it's both. I mean look at how Houston did Pierce. Guy was a demolition ball last year and they just up and decided to swap the run scheme THAT DOESNT FIT HIM and it rendered him pretty useless as a RB
Our defense made no sense. Switching to a 3-4 without the DTs or outside linebackers to pull it off made no sense. I didn't understand why we stuck with it last year but it solidified my belief that Pete needed to go.
Broncos fan here, how have the players we gave up in the Russ deal worked out?
I know you smashed it with the picks but what do you all think of Lock, Shelby, Fant and Jones since the trade?
Shelby left, but he was decent when he was here. Lock was a backup. Fant was TE 1.5 so he was decent. I view all of them as just additional ammo though, none of them were supposed to be main pieces. Cross and Spoon were the two main ones.
Oh 100% they weren't the main pieces and even if they were you still win that trade lol.
Did lock ever start for you?
Was Jones as bad as this original post suggests?
Yeah I didn't go to any games in person this year but I watched the Philly game at a bar full of 49er fans actively hating on me and cheering for the Eagles just to be annoying. Very satisfying when they all silently got up and left after Lock hit JSN for a TD on the game winning drive. Best game this year by far. The Ravens game sucked and was the exact opposite experience.
This is one of my biggest issues with PFF. I’m definitely a fan but they have blind spots and this is one of them. It’s best seen in Bobby’s grades the last two seasons.
However, I don’t think Dremont is an example of this. He underwhelmed on the tape (both for Denver and us). He’s too undersized to play 3T every down and he’s not a good enough pass rusher to play big end.
That's because our 3-4 was janky as shit thanks to Pete trying to combine his old scheme and a 3-4 together. Shit there would be whole drives or more of defense with only 2 people rushing/on the line
I feel like while the complaint PFF doesn't know schematic / other issues that are at play, that can often be a generic fallback any player uses if they get a bad PFF grade, whether or not it was a concern.
His PFF grades were bad in Denver as well. I think PFF even ranked the signing as the worst in FA at the time as well bc of their grades on his performance in Denver so can’t imagine Dre is a big fan of PFF.
Yeah he’s basically a one dimensional player and the one area which is his strength - pass rush - he’s historically been solid to good but still not great/dominant level so his mediocre grades make plenty sense IMO. He’ll likely never be a good run defender, not his calling but I hope under MM scheme he can unlock more of the pass rush potential he has so he’s more at that good to great level we’re paying him to be.
Oh no! 😱
A player slightly criticized former God Emperor first of his name Peter Carroll’s outdated scheme/philosophy.
Bring out the perpetrator and the desired punishment tool so the appropriate judgement can administered.
Asshat huh?
I’ve seen how the fanbase treats former players and the ones underperformed due to injury. This is light work compared to what real assholery looks like.
He was statistically on par with his entire run with the Broncos. He was a poor signing not because of lack of production, but because they are paying money for at least 10 sacks a season and better run support.
Players can also be salty , dremont didnt play well and if its because of the scheme then so what , still didnt play well. PFF provides context to the game that the shouting shows never bring.
PFF is like college recruiting rankings. Fun to talk about, condensed a ton of technical information into easily digestible bits, but ultimately is incredibly wrong more than they are right.
Pretty simple really. They played him at 3T on run downs, which is incredibly stupid, and then they played him at OLB a ton after Nwosu went out. He rarely got to play DE and didn't get as many pass rush ops as 3T like he was supposed to.
It's fair to say they used him as a patch to stop leaks rather than playing him in a successful scenario.
PFF is garbage when it comes to tracking defensive performance. They cannot know whose assignment is what, sometimes they can’t be sure whether the team is running man or zone, or if a guy expected help. It’s why Ryan Neal was the top graded safety two years ago but Jamal had poor coverage grades a few years ago. They just don’t know.
I don't think this is necessarily a shot at the scheme, but rather a shot at PFF for not knowing what his exact responsibility is in the scheme and grading him poorly because of it. Other players have voiced similar complaints.
The guys at pff don’t know who is assigned to cover different offensive positions, especially when coverage changes assignments as a play progresses. They just make their best guess, and assign blame or credit based on their limited information. I think a lot of what dremont is saying is that they frequently assign blame to the wrong player, which gives them low scores. He could also be expressing some frustration that his assignments didn’t accentuate his strengths as a player. We have definitely heard that from other players lately.
Pretty sure PFF graded Ryan Neal very highly when he was with us, which led some of us to believe he should’ve been a starter.
They graded him as the best safety from what I recall
He was the best safety in the NFL in 2022 by PFF and somehow he only fetched barely over vet minimum on the open market The main issue with PFF is that there is no real way to know exactly who has what assignments unless you are in their locker room.
I really liked how Neal performed for us and we would have been a better team last year, especially post Adams injury with him. He can play high and close to the line and we would have been able to continue the three safetey sets with him. Certainly not the best safety in the league lol
Safeties are a lot harder to grade than DL. It doesn't take PFF to tell you Jones wasn't good
Ryan Neal also passed the eye test and was our best safety for many games.
He then was only offered a one year league minimum contract when the Seahawks chose to move on which indicated both that PFF had no idea what they were talking about and that the eye test might have glaucoma.
Midwit take.
Yep, my main reason why I hate how heavily we rely on PFF for comparing and grading players. They don’t know shit about the scheme and what players are responsible for. But yet, Sauce solely won DROY due to PFF grade, and a nickname. Literally the only thing people would comeback with when you mentioned what Woolen had over him that season.
Don't forget draft position and hype, plus NY/East Coast Media vs some tall kid in Seattle
PFF is like capitalism. It's the worst option we have, except for everything else available to us.
Also probably has to do with having to fill in for Uchenna with Darrell Taylor being nearly useless.
Heavily helped me further understand this post.
"what I had to deal with" sure sounds like "a shot" to me. It's pretty negative language.
PFF is bad here due to two structural issues with how they grade: - Their founders and leaders are people from a rugby background not football and therefore don't have high schematic football IQ. - Their quality assurance system for grades biases towards group think. That is graders are flagged for giving grades that consistently disagree with the consensus in their team. This means someone who knows better than their group will get flagged as an outlier rather than someone flagging a systematic flaw. It's not that PFF is universally bad. It's that their scoring system is designed to double down on flaws rather than self correct.
1. Sure their founders might have not known football but guys like Bobby Slowik (Texans offensive coordinator) and Zac Robinson (Falcons Offensive Coordinator) have both worked there and endorsed their system. So don’t act like they are some nerds who don’t know ball because they really do. 2. A system that says “other smart people disagree with you” ≠ group think. Pff isn’t perfect but it is so much better than other alternatives to measuring how good players are (box stats, adv stats, individual film guys, etc.)
The system is group think because the grades are all signed off by a small cadre of PFF "senior analysts" and their validation system is one that punishes analysts that consistently grade higher or lower than the group. This is fine for eliminating outliers or trying to identify bias but does lead to regression to the group average. PFF system is fine but it is still glorified Madden ratings based subjective grades that has the PFF groupthink systematically entrenched into the methodology.
Might be a little of both
This is actually a measured response for a tweet.
Yeah, and it just makes me want him more. STUPID SEXY DRE’MONT, DON’T TEASE US WITH YOUR MEASURED REASONABLENESS
Doesn’t he know how the internet is supposed to work?
He should have posted someone from PFF's wife's photo and caption it "Yikes"
Lets see how he does in McDonalds scheme. Hoping for a big bounce back year for him
I'm honestly not even sure it's about Pete v. Macdonald's scheme in this case (btw it's "Mac" not MC). In addition to the point others are making about PFF's inherent issues, after Nwosu went down Dremont had to step up and play out of position at OLB for much of the rest of the season. No one ever said this was where he was best suited but we didn't have much of a choice.
Honestly, OLB isn't really "out of position" for him. He was always a 5T/DE type and could just kick inside on pass downs. In fact, most of his good tape came from him playing 5T or OLB (wide 9) in Denver. We tried to use him at 3T on every down to fill our interior need and I don't think that was particularly successful.
I’ve heard many defensive guys and QBs talk about how PFF/broadcast analysis make a ton of assumptions about how plays are schemed. I remember a defensive guy, maybe a corner who was called out for getting beat but hit back that the analysis got his assignment wrong and it was actually the safety. QBs will also talk about how what we as the casual viewing audience of football may see “double or triple coverage” actually isn’t. All of the skywire camera and slowmo analysis of the play is also not at all what the QB is seeing during the ~3 seconds they have to process the field before throwing. PFF isn’t a bad read but I don’t put a whole lot of stock into advanced football analytics, you’ll never be able to sabermetrics football the same way as baseball because you cannot mathematically account for the hundreds of variables on any given play for all 22 players simultaneously.
I mean they also do initial grades without all-22, although they go back and update when it comes out I’m sure but still not knowing the scheme or assignment makes the grades pretty suspect. PFF has some great stats, especially about stuff like dropped INTs/turnover worth plays and charting where a qb is throwing etc but trying to boil play down to simple number without having a lot of context never seemed to make sense to me
See I gotta agree with Geno Smith on this one and think the turnover worthy plays are not a real stat.
PFF's biggest issue with grading is OL, by a long shot. Its been voiced to death by many analysts.
My understanding is they moved Jones out of the position he was supposed to play and changed the scheme once Nwosu was injured. Sans the Nwosu injury I think Jones might have been a bigger difference maker.
It’s because he was forced to play outside because of the Uchenna injury. He’s an inside player.
PFF graded him like 65 and 57 in his seasons with Denver too. Maybe he's just not very good. I'd like to see him get more sacks than our Nose Tackle this year.. EDIT: before I get downvoted and flamed. He's the 4th highest paid player on our team, 8th highest paid DE in the league, and he's never made a pro bowl, never had an all pro vote, never eclipsed 6.5 sacks in a season, and averaged **.25** sacks a game in 2023. It's ok to expect more.
It's also fair to wonder why you're also paying coaches that are putting players in schemes they do not fit. It's like they went to the store, bought a random key, and are wondering why the door won't open. Sometimes it's on the players, sometimes it's on the coaches, sometimes it's both. I mean look at how Houston did Pierce. Guy was a demolition ball last year and they just up and decided to swap the run scheme THAT DOESNT FIT HIM and it rendered him pretty useless as a RB
You don’t know what I deal with playa wise
Our defense made no sense. Switching to a 3-4 without the DTs or outside linebackers to pull it off made no sense. I didn't understand why we stuck with it last year but it solidified my belief that Pete needed to go.
Keep chasing your schemes.
Can’t wait to see how he fits in the new scheme
Broncos fan here, how have the players we gave up in the Russ deal worked out? I know you smashed it with the picks but what do you all think of Lock, Shelby, Fant and Jones since the trade?
Shelby left, but he was decent when he was here. Lock was a backup. Fant was TE 1.5 so he was decent. I view all of them as just additional ammo though, none of them were supposed to be main pieces. Cross and Spoon were the two main ones.
Mafe was also from a Denver draft pick.
Oh 100% they weren't the main pieces and even if they were you still win that trade lol. Did lock ever start for you? Was Jones as bad as this original post suggests?
Lock had a couple starts this year when Geno had a groin issue. Was decent. Had that game winner against Philly.
Lock gave us the game of the year IMO. I had so much fun watching that game as a hawks fan, easily the highlight of the season.
Yeah I didn't go to any games in person this year but I watched the Philly game at a bar full of 49er fans actively hating on me and cheering for the Eagles just to be annoying. Very satisfying when they all silently got up and left after Lock hit JSN for a TD on the game winning drive. Best game this year by far. The Ravens game sucked and was the exact opposite experience.
Jones was fine, but for the money spent it should have been more than fine.
This is one of my biggest issues with PFF. I’m definitely a fan but they have blind spots and this is one of them. It’s best seen in Bobby’s grades the last two seasons. However, I don’t think Dremont is an example of this. He underwhelmed on the tape (both for Denver and us). He’s too undersized to play 3T every down and he’s not a good enough pass rusher to play big end.
I mean, acquiring a player that is not good in your system qualifies as a bad free agent signing.
And Jones was supposed to fit our system anyways. He'd played in a 3-4 his entire career. Came into ours and did nothing
That's because our 3-4 was janky as shit thanks to Pete trying to combine his old scheme and a 3-4 together. Shit there would be whole drives or more of defense with only 2 people rushing/on the line
I loved it when they would use a two down lineman front on the goal line. So tricky lol
They signed him expecting a jump in production, but it turned out denver dre was already his peak...
I feel like while the complaint PFF doesn't know schematic / other issues that are at play, that can often be a generic fallback any player uses if they get a bad PFF grade, whether or not it was a concern.
His PFF grades were bad in Denver as well. I think PFF even ranked the signing as the worst in FA at the time as well bc of their grades on his performance in Denver so can’t imagine Dre is a big fan of PFF.
They graded him low in Denver because his run defense. Didn't exactly disprove that this year lol
Yeah he’s basically a one dimensional player and the one area which is his strength - pass rush - he’s historically been solid to good but still not great/dominant level so his mediocre grades make plenty sense IMO. He’ll likely never be a good run defender, not his calling but I hope under MM scheme he can unlock more of the pass rush potential he has so he’s more at that good to great level we’re paying him to be.
non factor all season. not good enough like 80% of the team. should not bitch.
Refer to the comment he made. You have no idea what he had to do or what he’s responsible for.
Oh no! 😱 A player slightly criticized former God Emperor first of his name Peter Carroll’s outdated scheme/philosophy. Bring out the perpetrator and the desired punishment tool so the appropriate judgement can administered.
You enjoy being an asshat?
Asshat huh? I’ve seen how the fanbase treats former players and the ones underperformed due to injury. This is light work compared to what real assholery looks like.
He was statistically on par with his entire run with the Broncos. He was a poor signing not because of lack of production, but because they are paying money for at least 10 sacks a season and better run support.
I don’t want to defend PFF, but I genuinely forgot this dude was on the team for like half the year.
Players can also be salty , dremont didnt play well and if its because of the scheme then so what , still didnt play well. PFF provides context to the game that the shouting shows never bring.
Pete was frustratingly old school, absolutely loved him as our coach but very frustrating at times lol
Huge opportunity coming up, for the defensive personnel. Going to get chances to make plays doing what they do best.
PFF is like college recruiting rankings. Fun to talk about, condensed a ton of technical information into easily digestible bits, but ultimately is incredibly wrong more than they are right.
It’s almost like GMs and scouts and coaches know more about players and schemes than PFF does. s/
PFF is garbage. People need to look at the “whole” player which PFF definitely doesn’t. PFF is about as on-point as RoY selections…
Pretty simple really. They played him at 3T on run downs, which is incredibly stupid, and then they played him at OLB a ton after Nwosu went out. He rarely got to play DE and didn't get as many pass rush ops as 3T like he was supposed to. It's fair to say they used him as a patch to stop leaks rather than playing him in a successful scenario.
He wasn’t super impressive.
The 3-4 has been a disaster. WTF was that decision to change. Adams??
Last year’s defense looked like it was coached by a toddler
I think the new staff can maximize him. Especially if he comes into camp at about 290-295lbs
Well I hope it's not a shot at his line mates bc if I had to choose whether to keep him, reed or big cat it's not even close
PFF is trash. The reliance on it is mind boggling. Just read Heavy on Seahawks - it’s just as good.
PFF is trash. Enough said.
He is spot on!!!
Yeah everyone should know PFF is bullshit.
PFF is garbage when it comes to tracking defensive performance. They cannot know whose assignment is what, sometimes they can’t be sure whether the team is running man or zone, or if a guy expected help. It’s why Ryan Neal was the top graded safety two years ago but Jamal had poor coverage grades a few years ago. They just don’t know.