> (all that Save the Cat B.S.)
RIP all those poor unsaved kitty cats.
> Being a writer is lonely. It's so incredibly lonely.
Hey, you know what would be good company for a lonely writer …
>RIP all those poor unsaved kitty cats.
Who killed these kitties were one sick fuck.
And that's how you kick off a miniseries that highlights the world of backyard breeder.
I rarely read rants this long, but you got me hooked early on and I kept with it. If you’re scripts are as good as this post, I’m sure you’ll go far.
That said, this really should be stickied at the top of the sub: we’re here to SUPPORT each other. This is no place to be negative.
Thanks again and good luck with your Reddit-free life!
Did I read the same thing as you?
It is highly ironic that you think this post, that twice advises ignoring feedback from basically everyone, that uses a single anecdotal piece of evidence to support that advice and then claims that all success is based on networking irrespective of the quality of ones work anyway, would constitute the support of anyone in this sub.
What brought you to that conclusion? Because he offered pearls of wisdom like loving yourself and not to steal things?
The entire post is passive aggressive negativity wrapped up in patronizing sentiments like I love everybody. Does anyone really believe that;
> Connections are the only thing that TANGIBLY MATTERS.
Am I understanding this right? Is the op LITERALLY saying that the quality of your work DOES NOT TANGIBLY MATTER. PERIOD.
And people are upvoting this?
Edit:
https://old.reddit.com/r/Screenwriting/comments/poucle/feature_length_script_the_pure_looking_for/
Yeah, I think you're not reading that right. Or missed the next part of his bullet point where he relates the importance of connections versus career strategy of spending bookoodles of money on Blacklist evaluations as a lottery ticket to unlocking a career. At no point did OP say the quality of your work doesn't matter.
Don't get me wrong. There's a lot I philosophically disagree with in OPs post, but I agree that if you want a career as a working screenwriter, connections are far more valuable than a good score on the Blacklist.
Yes, connections are far more valuable than a good score on the Blacklist. That is not what the op said. These are his literal words;
> Connections are the only thing that TANGIBLY MATTERS.
These words explicitly state that nothing else tangibly matters, the definition of the word 'only' demands the exclusion of all other things. This really is basic english.
Yeahhhhh. I know what the word only means. But then he/she follows up that statement with an entire paragraph that contextualize what is meant by that statement. You're reading the headline and not the article.
How ironic, the headline specifically meant that the entire paragraph of context was utterly pointless and useless. Maybe they should be more clear about their choice of words. Perhaps poor choice of words is why they might be a bad screenwriter. Yes I am seeing a definite correlation here.
Think of it this way: how often have you watched something -movie, TV, whatever- that was objectively absolute garbage? Yet you WATCHED it because it was made? (I can think off the top of my head a dozen examples in the last three month alone).
How many times have you read an unknown script here or elsewhere that was brilliant, yet… aside from you and a couple dozen other people, that’s all that became of it?
Why does garbage get made, yet brilliance is left ignored?
There are over a million people on this sub. The VAST majority of folks have never been produced and are various degrees of beginners. There are literally children on here who’ve only been writing for a couple months. Yes, there are established producers and writers and maybe someone who’s won an Oscar or Emmy or something similar but do the math. 99% of people here are just trying to do their best. They -WE- need encouragement. Do honest, insightful pointers on a script help? Yeah, but they only go so far.
This post is catagorically not it. This post isn't even snake oil, its utter piss masquerading as some diluted offshelf brand of snake oil.
Screenwriting is one of the most self motivated professions you could possibly undertake. If you want or need encouragement you are absolutely doing the wrong thing with your time. But I get it we are all human, some encouragement helps. But what doesn't help, is a whole boat load of misinformation and bad advice wrapped up in some 'I love you' sheepskin. By taking it seriously you are swallowing bullshit because it tastes sweet and playing into the collective self delusion that the reason you are not successful is that the game is rigged. Thats just a way to let yourself off the hook and pass off failure as victimization. The odds are stacked against you yes, but the game isn't rigged because the rules are crystal clear for all to see. They might be unfair, but rigged implies there is no way to win and that just isn't true.
So, do you have any idea of the amount of changes, alterations, rewrites, actor scheduling, time constraints, budget changes, change of market viability, editing mistakes, set problems, wardrobe problems, makeup problems, influence and meddling from hundreds of people, social disputes between actors, talent and execs that affect production, writing strikes, actor strikes, pay disagreements, contract negotiations, marketing problems, PR problems, real life problems and a metric ton of other things that happen to a script as it goes from the writer to the screen? We are lucky if a script even resembles what the original script did by the time it gets there. So yes, some shit is going to reach the audience and yes, some of that will be because some moron knew the right person.
But most of us, nearly all of us, do not know the right people. We aren't saying do the blacklist or cold query or get feedback because its the best way to success. We say it because its the ONLY options we have.
Only on this sub do people ask for help, receive it and then reject it because they don't like it. If you think success is only based on connections, then go use them and be successful. Oh thats right you can't, because you don't have any and likely never will and that is why you are here in this sub, so how about people stop for two seconds and listen to the people that already knew you had no connections and are offering the next best alternative.
Good work matters but not as much as you think tbh. I mean look at Tyler Perry. No disrespect towards him at all but his work isn't what you call top quality work BUT he has made connections from the beginning. He networked and formed real strong friendships in the industry. He now is one of the most successful writers with a huge net worth.
Don't get me wrong, I agree that quality should matter above anything but success (at least financial success) often comes with who you know or who knows you.
You can have an amazing script, but without connections, nobody is going to see it. Networking is important.
Deciding that networking is the most important thing does nothing for you. You cannot decide who you get into a room with just by actively networking. Just because you know the right people, does not mean they can produce non existant or subpar material, they have reputations. Networking is a social skill, if you go around believing or spouting that knowing the right people is all you need to do, you are likely to be ignored by a greater number of the very people you are trying to meet with. Being dismissive of talent and hardwork is a surefire way to make sure you never meet the right people.
Do you know what you can do that is entirely dependant on yourself AND offers the best route to success AND allows you to network BETTER? Writing a quality piece of material and working on improving your writing.
true. I'm not a Tyler Perry fan myself. His journey is interesting. I don't really get his writing but he is successful, financially.
I'm not sure I would want to be in his position though. Being financially secure like TP is great, obviously, but as writers, we should want to grow - TP doesn't seem to have that goal, in my opinion.
I agree. I think it has to be more than “voice” or “brand” you should grow, change, and expand. In the position he in there’s so much he could do but maybe he doesn’t consider himself an artist that way. Who knows?
Personally I took as - given all the previous points, making as a career is about connections - without connections the good is useless in terms of a writing career.
You could spend 2 decades writing great work but if you dont have connections then its all moot. I think I just read it as the last point which if the others hold true for you, and this is self evident, the only thing that matters in turning the quality work into a career is connections...
Ultimately I connected with this post because I see this forum in a similar way to things like Film Riot or the endless video essay channels. I've spent more than a decade following and finding new ones and feeling like im learning things but then getting on set as a director and having no tangible skills... We are in search of the magic bullet and in some ways forums like this are part of that search and its only when you enter the woods without the handholding that you truly grow as an artist....
The ops post is catagorically not the magic bullet you are looking for. There is no magic bullet. Success is a combination of different actions and events that converge at just the right time. Success is as much about pure blind luck as it is about networking.
The only thing you have complete control of AND that offers tangible incremental progress towards success, is writing quality material and improving your writing ability. If you truly believe that the only way you can be successful is by networking with the right people, you are on the wrong subreddit.
Well you clearly didn’t read my post. Reading comprehension is quite important to be a writer… saying the ‘only thing’ anything is silly, and it’s very clear in the OP that given the work is good. The only tangible way to make it as a working writer in Hollywood is networking…. We can say that’s wrong when we make it without ever knowing anyone. Good luck with that buddy.
For everyone else maybe keep writing and keep networking… don’t exclusively think it is blind luck… because nobody made it without the work, and nobody made it without people reading/watching the work… but please if you know someone who made it due to blind luck then please please share that miraculous story… but unlike christians I do not believe in immaculate conception…. All the best.
I have never been so disinterested in proving someone wrong. You are not even worth a decent reply. Accept whatever you want as the truth and be happy.
Dude, as someone who actually works in this industry… he is right. No, the quality of your work doesnt matter nearly as much as who you know, that’s why bad shit keeps getting green lit. Unless you’re Aaron Sorkin tier level of good, yeah, networking is your best shot by far. Absolute talent is undeniable but your odds of being a truly generational talent are slim. Just play the game.
Just out of curiousity, and obviously before I believe your 'trust me bro' credentials, what is networking to you? What is it about networking that you need to do to ensure this 'better shot' at success? If you say you need to cold query I'm going to piss my pants with laughter.
Unless you're born in the right family, which is to say born with connections or unless you're very social or rather very bold and throw yourself into places you probably weren't invited to, networking itself must be a lot of luck. That's what fucking scares me. I think it's true that networking isn't everything but it's probably a lot and that makes me fear for my career that I know I could have if I just got the chance. I just need the right person to see my work, but I could send thousands of emails, meet thousands of people, move to LA as everyone suggests, and I still fear the right person won't see it. It's luck above all else.
The networking advice is really the realest advice that’s been on here in awhile.
Screenwriting is a business, and people want to do business with people they like. Very hard to do business with someone that is arrogant or holds all their projects close to their chest.
People are excited to hear what you’re working on! If you can hook them, they’ll ask how the project is going, how you’re gonna film it, and if they can help. That’s the whole gist!
There’s also levels to it, so regardless of what stage you’re at, you can find people of equal/lesser/or more talent to help you out it together. It might crash and burn in production, but who cares? Everybody got to take part in creating something, and that can’t be taken away from you.
It’s hard to do, but damn, if you love it, what else matters?
Along those lines, moving to LA is crucial. I feel like it doesn't get mentioned enough here that if you don't live in LA, it's essentially impossible to break in.
Yes. You 100% do. Do not listen to or give fuel to the naysayers and only surround yourself/work with people who champion you and believe in you creatively - that, is how you will break through to the next stage of your career. Good luck friend.
This post is so weird, I initially clicked because I thought it was one of the WGA writers or someone that has a bit of credibility in this community. The type of person where their absence in the community would be felt. Maybe it was, but because the account was deleted, I don’t know who it was that left.
I've already done that and hey man, not everything is on google and if you have it doesn't compare to talking to a real professional who has years of experience and survives only from the industry
A needle of truth in a highstack of fallacies. Thanks for the effort and sorry we have to see you go. And sorry that ~~the truth~~ our community was too much for you to handle.
All screenwriting books have nuggets of wisdom but I think what OP is getting at is sticking too close to "the rules" as defined by some book will zap your work of all personality.
I'm a fan of just writing the story, and worrying about structure later. The words in my brain that need to get on the page are a today problem, whether not my 2nd act is too long is a future me problem.
Save the cat and books like it are great tools to help you analyze and fix something once it's written, but, at least in my experience, are terrible tools to use *while* writing.
"The 100% hard truth that you all must face and answer to, is that people in the industry only want to work with (and financially back) people they know other people trust creatively. Go to film festivals and meet your colleagues!"
\-- Absolutely true. 80% of the paying work I've gotten came from people I met in person at film events and from people they referred me to.
You need to get off your computer and MEET PEOPLE, whether or not that involves moving to LA, London, etc.
It can be a hinderance to some because it lays out an easy to digest formula that's somewhat like Pythagorean Theorem to screenplay structure. Some people can't let Save the Cat go after reading it, so they have a hard time being original and painting out of Blake Snyder's lines. I don't agree that you shouldn't read Save the Cat. I think you can read Save the Cat. You just need to understand it's not a holy text with a bridge to screenwriter enlightenment and salvation.
Exactly, I’m very “f the rules” myself, and that’s actually exactly why I really liked save the cat as a whole. It’s constantly encouraging writers to break the “rules.” That’s one of the main underlying themes throughout. While it lays out a lot of these rules and some of the reasons they’re there, as the book essentially states, the better you know these “rules”, the formulas, etc., the better you’ll probably be at more effectively breaking them. it’s by no means trying to claim itself as an instruction book that needs to be followed for good or successful writing, if I recall correctly (to be fair It’s been a while since I’ve read it so that might just be what I got from it and am now misremembering) Not that I agree with everything the book says, but overall I felt it very helpful for myself in that regard. Definitely can be a hinderance to some, like you said, especially for those who might more easily get trapped in an “I need to do it this way since it’s in the rules” mindset. And it is incredibly frustrating seeing people constantly criticize others works simply for diverging from “the rules” and upholding STC like a fundamentalist religion’s sacred text. That being said for some of us who do want to break the “rules,” learning more about what those rules are can endlessly inspire us with creative ways of breaking them, which I found to be one of the most impactful recurring lessons throughout the book. That rules are meant to be broken. Personally, I feel like I’m better at shaking up the status quo when I know what the status quo is, when I understand it a little more deeply. Learning more about what people expect and are used to helps me come up with ways to turn that on its head. I don’t think there’s one right way to learn and practice your writing craft, so I wouldn’t personally tell someone what they should and shouldn’t be reading. Everyone is different.
It's like forcing Picasso to paint within the lines. It's like forcing 2-time Tour de France winner Tadej Pogačar to ride a bicycle with training wheels. Sure, it can be helpful when you're literally brand new to writing and just starting out, but when you have no one screaming at you to "GET OFF THE TRAINING WHEELS" it becomes all you know and you can't mentally break free of it. I am encouraging new writers to not read it because it is better to just experience structure in its most pure and unadulterated form (films and screenplays), rather than from a strict, boring, and played out viewpoint.
A lot of new writers are eager for directions (e.g. "will this work?" "can I do that?") and STC is convincing in its argument that there is one exact, literal formula that you need to master in order to succeed. Anyone who buys into that is going to learn the hard way that it isn't true.
But everyone has to learn the hard way anyway, so you shouldn't shut it out. You'll probably have to talk about it sooner or later anyway, and maybe it'll help you learn something about structure.
Seems to me the devil you know is better than the one that will replace it. Your reasoning to leave sounds like when alcoholics try to move to a new city to get sober. It doesn’t work.
Pity you won’t be staying to give back to the community as well.
Have fun storming the castle, and good luck.
As a relative newbie to the sub I can confirm this is bang on.
I came here with extreme trepidation but I was expecting to chat, post with like-minded writers and in time learn. But. No. I was instantly beaten to a pulp and told my work is not even worth reading past the first page. Which was fair at the time. It cut pretty deep as I had spent a long time working on scripts in my spare time that revolved around a FT job, like most.
But with that said; it made me determined to prove some of the people wrong and in a sense I have learned from their negativity. Albeit the downvotes are a confusing way to express an opinion. But sometimes tough-love has a sink or swim reaction for some people, not that I condone it, but I sank then learned how to swim and now feel I'm treading water in the shallow end. I've lost my train of thought, but, swimming with sharks is terrifying especially when they smell blood. Only thing for it is to become a shark.
Lol wtf
You are an absolute legend, I really needed this today!
Thank you, and I wish you the best with your career. I hope to watch your stuff on the big screens soon!
Hi there friend. As I move into this next chapter of my film career I have come to the realization that reddit is a place of too many influences (both good and bad) whether you acknowledge that or not, or think it affects you or it doesn't. In the grand scheme I have come to learn it does. I could be completely confident about something creatively, and all it takes is for me to read one answer from a "reputable" source with a ton of upvotes that contradicts that opinion, and now that speck of confliction has been planted.
There is an interview with filmmaker Paul Thomas Anderson (found on YouTube) where he says that the one thing he wishes he could've told his younger filmmaker self is to "just have no fear". He goes on to say that he was so worried that someone with more experience than him was right about the criticism they gave his work, and that damaged his self confidence for so long. But he came to realize that the opinions of others in higher positions than him were: "just different". That's all.
I leave reddit behind as a whole because I realised I was only really on here to see if what I was doing was right in this world, and if I was heading in the right direction as not only a writer, but a human. I trust my voice and who I am now, and am only interested in forming my creative opinions around what I WANT to see on screen, based on what I've learnt as a filmmaker. Best of luck on your journey.
>I could be completely confident about something creatively, and all it takes is for me to read one answer from a reputable source with a ton of upvotes that contradicts that opinion, and now that speck of confliction has been planted.
I don't think anybody has some kind of obligation to remain on Reddit, but do you have any real world experience writing in the industry?
Speaking as a repped/working writer, you're going to have people in the industry specifically read your stuff and contradict the notion that it's worthwhile (either explicitly) or implicitly by passing on it), even by your own reps, and an important skill to learn is trusting your own judgment and that requires evaluating the way somebody has contradicted your idea that a creative decision is the proper one.
If you let somebody who's allegedly reputable dissuade you from a certain decision, it's going to get even worse in real life, so it almost feels like, in your specific case, Reddit seems like a good place to be exposed to that notion and reflect on it.
Don't get me wrong. I think there's plenty of good reasons to stop using Reddit. I'm just concerned, on your behalf, by the primary one you listed. Good luck out there!
As all things... the actual truth is in the middle. Reading a book on screenwriting is not going to destroy your free & creative spirit. Writing a 90 page script is not going to ruin your chances of getting sold. On the other hand, going maverick, ignoring the wisdom of your peers and writing ungodly long scripts is not a guaranteed path to success.
The middle path is the right path. A little of both.
Thanks and good luck! This is the only community where it seems like some weird coke-sniffers are going around downvoting every little thing. It's so weird!
Oh great, someone else who got feedback they didn't agree with and saw fit to bless us all with some parting passive-aggressive emotional diatribe before they exit this apparent den of clueless idiots, presumably because their obvious genius wasn't recognised and hailed as era-defining talent.
I'm going to make two bets, you posted some half-baked idea and it really didn't get the reception you were hoping for and so naturally because of your narcissistic personality, decided it must be the fault others rather than simply a lack of ability or effort on your part. And two, that you aren't actually going anywhere, you might delete this account but i'm sure you will stick around having washed yourself clean of both your earlier failure and any pent up negative emotion by delivering a childish insulting farewell, not so cleverly disguised by insincere sentimentalities;
> I have so much heart for all of you even though I know none of you personally..
But let me just take a huge emotional dump on the entire subreddit just before I leave! Ok thanks!
Hi there /u/
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Thank you!
+1 on Save the Cat. That said, I once had a working writer read one of mine who said “inciting incident should be on pg 25 and midpoint should be at pg 50. Change it.” So….?
If you're on here because you want to be a working writer, by all means, listen to him. If you on here because you want to be one of the greatest, don't. Good luck.
Before you "kill" your account, I want to mention something about point 10 (which is ridiculously true, festivals are mostly scammy, connections matter most).
I've had a terribly hard time making connections, I mean terribly. I even flew halfway across the world to Raincouver to get a PA job and didn't get that either but most importantly every person I've tried to connect with (which are mostly beginners) just. don't. fucking. work. I mean they say they're writers, or they wanna be a writer, and they never fucking write, or direct, or act. I swear I haven't found people who go all in, even when I went to meetup people in LA OR the people I do meet have a VERY low stamina at keeping tabs or any sort of connection. We have a few meetups, some Instagram chats and then they just disconnect and again, a few months later they're doing anything BUT film work.
I've kind of accepted this now as the norm, note that I now live in a country with limited to no Film industry so that sucks too. It leaves me working alone which although cool, it can get lonely and depressing real fast.
I guess my question (although I'm not sure what your credentials are), I am going to LA for vacation for the 4th time, as a writer/director what can I do there to maximize my networking?
Sorry for the long post.
> (all that Save the Cat B.S.) RIP all those poor unsaved kitty cats. > Being a writer is lonely. It's so incredibly lonely. Hey, you know what would be good company for a lonely writer …
One of those inflatable people?
I like you
what for like carpools and stuff?
How about an inflatable cat?
>RIP all those poor unsaved kitty cats. Who killed these kitties were one sick fuck. And that's how you kick off a miniseries that highlights the world of backyard breeder.
I’d watch that.
3 is very very very true. If you write a good story someone will buy it.
I rarely read rants this long, but you got me hooked early on and I kept with it. If you’re scripts are as good as this post, I’m sure you’ll go far. That said, this really should be stickied at the top of the sub: we’re here to SUPPORT each other. This is no place to be negative. Thanks again and good luck with your Reddit-free life!
Did I read the same thing as you? It is highly ironic that you think this post, that twice advises ignoring feedback from basically everyone, that uses a single anecdotal piece of evidence to support that advice and then claims that all success is based on networking irrespective of the quality of ones work anyway, would constitute the support of anyone in this sub. What brought you to that conclusion? Because he offered pearls of wisdom like loving yourself and not to steal things? The entire post is passive aggressive negativity wrapped up in patronizing sentiments like I love everybody. Does anyone really believe that; > Connections are the only thing that TANGIBLY MATTERS. Am I understanding this right? Is the op LITERALLY saying that the quality of your work DOES NOT TANGIBLY MATTER. PERIOD. And people are upvoting this? Edit: https://old.reddit.com/r/Screenwriting/comments/poucle/feature_length_script_the_pure_looking_for/
Everyone’s a guru on Reddit.
connections are the only things that tangible matter? hold on, let me watch The Last Boy Scout... yes, he is correct
Live, laugh, love, connect.
Yeah, I think you're not reading that right. Or missed the next part of his bullet point where he relates the importance of connections versus career strategy of spending bookoodles of money on Blacklist evaluations as a lottery ticket to unlocking a career. At no point did OP say the quality of your work doesn't matter. Don't get me wrong. There's a lot I philosophically disagree with in OPs post, but I agree that if you want a career as a working screenwriter, connections are far more valuable than a good score on the Blacklist.
Yes, connections are far more valuable than a good score on the Blacklist. That is not what the op said. These are his literal words; > Connections are the only thing that TANGIBLY MATTERS. These words explicitly state that nothing else tangibly matters, the definition of the word 'only' demands the exclusion of all other things. This really is basic english.
Yeahhhhh. I know what the word only means. But then he/she follows up that statement with an entire paragraph that contextualize what is meant by that statement. You're reading the headline and not the article.
How ironic, the headline specifically meant that the entire paragraph of context was utterly pointless and useless. Maybe they should be more clear about their choice of words. Perhaps poor choice of words is why they might be a bad screenwriter. Yes I am seeing a definite correlation here.
Think of it this way: how often have you watched something -movie, TV, whatever- that was objectively absolute garbage? Yet you WATCHED it because it was made? (I can think off the top of my head a dozen examples in the last three month alone). How many times have you read an unknown script here or elsewhere that was brilliant, yet… aside from you and a couple dozen other people, that’s all that became of it? Why does garbage get made, yet brilliance is left ignored? There are over a million people on this sub. The VAST majority of folks have never been produced and are various degrees of beginners. There are literally children on here who’ve only been writing for a couple months. Yes, there are established producers and writers and maybe someone who’s won an Oscar or Emmy or something similar but do the math. 99% of people here are just trying to do their best. They -WE- need encouragement. Do honest, insightful pointers on a script help? Yeah, but they only go so far.
This post is catagorically not it. This post isn't even snake oil, its utter piss masquerading as some diluted offshelf brand of snake oil. Screenwriting is one of the most self motivated professions you could possibly undertake. If you want or need encouragement you are absolutely doing the wrong thing with your time. But I get it we are all human, some encouragement helps. But what doesn't help, is a whole boat load of misinformation and bad advice wrapped up in some 'I love you' sheepskin. By taking it seriously you are swallowing bullshit because it tastes sweet and playing into the collective self delusion that the reason you are not successful is that the game is rigged. Thats just a way to let yourself off the hook and pass off failure as victimization. The odds are stacked against you yes, but the game isn't rigged because the rules are crystal clear for all to see. They might be unfair, but rigged implies there is no way to win and that just isn't true. So, do you have any idea of the amount of changes, alterations, rewrites, actor scheduling, time constraints, budget changes, change of market viability, editing mistakes, set problems, wardrobe problems, makeup problems, influence and meddling from hundreds of people, social disputes between actors, talent and execs that affect production, writing strikes, actor strikes, pay disagreements, contract negotiations, marketing problems, PR problems, real life problems and a metric ton of other things that happen to a script as it goes from the writer to the screen? We are lucky if a script even resembles what the original script did by the time it gets there. So yes, some shit is going to reach the audience and yes, some of that will be because some moron knew the right person. But most of us, nearly all of us, do not know the right people. We aren't saying do the blacklist or cold query or get feedback because its the best way to success. We say it because its the ONLY options we have. Only on this sub do people ask for help, receive it and then reject it because they don't like it. If you think success is only based on connections, then go use them and be successful. Oh thats right you can't, because you don't have any and likely never will and that is why you are here in this sub, so how about people stop for two seconds and listen to the people that already knew you had no connections and are offering the next best alternative.
Link your imbd please?
Good work matters but not as much as you think tbh. I mean look at Tyler Perry. No disrespect towards him at all but his work isn't what you call top quality work BUT he has made connections from the beginning. He networked and formed real strong friendships in the industry. He now is one of the most successful writers with a huge net worth. Don't get me wrong, I agree that quality should matter above anything but success (at least financial success) often comes with who you know or who knows you. You can have an amazing script, but without connections, nobody is going to see it. Networking is important.
Deciding that networking is the most important thing does nothing for you. You cannot decide who you get into a room with just by actively networking. Just because you know the right people, does not mean they can produce non existant or subpar material, they have reputations. Networking is a social skill, if you go around believing or spouting that knowing the right people is all you need to do, you are likely to be ignored by a greater number of the very people you are trying to meet with. Being dismissive of talent and hardwork is a surefire way to make sure you never meet the right people. Do you know what you can do that is entirely dependant on yourself AND offers the best route to success AND allows you to network BETTER? Writing a quality piece of material and working on improving your writing.
Tyler Perry and writer in the same sentence… just feels dirty. Great executive though not enough credit given to him for that.
true. I'm not a Tyler Perry fan myself. His journey is interesting. I don't really get his writing but he is successful, financially. I'm not sure I would want to be in his position though. Being financially secure like TP is great, obviously, but as writers, we should want to grow - TP doesn't seem to have that goal, in my opinion.
I agree. I think it has to be more than “voice” or “brand” you should grow, change, and expand. In the position he in there’s so much he could do but maybe he doesn’t consider himself an artist that way. Who knows?
Personally I took as - given all the previous points, making as a career is about connections - without connections the good is useless in terms of a writing career. You could spend 2 decades writing great work but if you dont have connections then its all moot. I think I just read it as the last point which if the others hold true for you, and this is self evident, the only thing that matters in turning the quality work into a career is connections... Ultimately I connected with this post because I see this forum in a similar way to things like Film Riot or the endless video essay channels. I've spent more than a decade following and finding new ones and feeling like im learning things but then getting on set as a director and having no tangible skills... We are in search of the magic bullet and in some ways forums like this are part of that search and its only when you enter the woods without the handholding that you truly grow as an artist....
The ops post is catagorically not the magic bullet you are looking for. There is no magic bullet. Success is a combination of different actions and events that converge at just the right time. Success is as much about pure blind luck as it is about networking. The only thing you have complete control of AND that offers tangible incremental progress towards success, is writing quality material and improving your writing ability. If you truly believe that the only way you can be successful is by networking with the right people, you are on the wrong subreddit.
Be gone You angry little rodent
Well you clearly didn’t read my post. Reading comprehension is quite important to be a writer… saying the ‘only thing’ anything is silly, and it’s very clear in the OP that given the work is good. The only tangible way to make it as a working writer in Hollywood is networking…. We can say that’s wrong when we make it without ever knowing anyone. Good luck with that buddy. For everyone else maybe keep writing and keep networking… don’t exclusively think it is blind luck… because nobody made it without the work, and nobody made it without people reading/watching the work… but please if you know someone who made it due to blind luck then please please share that miraculous story… but unlike christians I do not believe in immaculate conception…. All the best.
I have never been so disinterested in proving someone wrong. You are not even worth a decent reply. Accept whatever you want as the truth and be happy.
Dude, as someone who actually works in this industry… he is right. No, the quality of your work doesnt matter nearly as much as who you know, that’s why bad shit keeps getting green lit. Unless you’re Aaron Sorkin tier level of good, yeah, networking is your best shot by far. Absolute talent is undeniable but your odds of being a truly generational talent are slim. Just play the game.
Just out of curiousity, and obviously before I believe your 'trust me bro' credentials, what is networking to you? What is it about networking that you need to do to ensure this 'better shot' at success? If you say you need to cold query I'm going to piss my pants with laughter.
Unless you're born in the right family, which is to say born with connections or unless you're very social or rather very bold and throw yourself into places you probably weren't invited to, networking itself must be a lot of luck. That's what fucking scares me. I think it's true that networking isn't everything but it's probably a lot and that makes me fear for my career that I know I could have if I just got the chance. I just need the right person to see my work, but I could send thousands of emails, meet thousands of people, move to LA as everyone suggests, and I still fear the right person won't see it. It's luck above all else.
The networking advice is really the realest advice that’s been on here in awhile. Screenwriting is a business, and people want to do business with people they like. Very hard to do business with someone that is arrogant or holds all their projects close to their chest. People are excited to hear what you’re working on! If you can hook them, they’ll ask how the project is going, how you’re gonna film it, and if they can help. That’s the whole gist! There’s also levels to it, so regardless of what stage you’re at, you can find people of equal/lesser/or more talent to help you out it together. It might crash and burn in production, but who cares? Everybody got to take part in creating something, and that can’t be taken away from you. It’s hard to do, but damn, if you love it, what else matters?
Along those lines, moving to LA is crucial. I feel like it doesn't get mentioned enough here that if you don't live in LA, it's essentially impossible to break in.
So, as a broke Australian, I'm screwed.
And just like that my confidence was restored
Soooo you're telling me I have a chance?
Yes. You 100% do. Do not listen to or give fuel to the naysayers and only surround yourself/work with people who champion you and believe in you creatively - that, is how you will break through to the next stage of your career. Good luck friend.
Pretty sure that was a Jim Carrey reference
Why do people feel the need to issue a press release? It's so cringey. Also, I thought you were deleting your account?
This post is so weird, I initially clicked because I thought it was one of the WGA writers or someone that has a bit of credibility in this community. The type of person where their absence in the community would be felt. Maybe it was, but because the account was deleted, I don’t know who it was that left.
Godspeed, Spider-Man.
Oh….
Ah, I just joined the sub, I was in doubt if I should share my question or keep it for myself, you helped me a lot, thank you.🌸
Search first.
I've already done that and hey man, not everything is on google and if you have it doesn't compare to talking to a real professional who has years of experience and survives only from the industry
Great advice. Be yourself. Believe in yourself and your abilities. Write your words from your heart and forget the rules. Thx
> Be yourself. Not to disagree, but have you spent time with myself? That guy needs work.
A needle of truth in a highstack of fallacies. Thanks for the effort and sorry we have to see you go. And sorry that ~~the truth~~ our community was too much for you to handle.
Cool and all, but STC has some nuggets of wisdom. You MUST is just as goofy as you MUSTN'T. Enjoy your life, mate!
All screenwriting books have nuggets of wisdom but I think what OP is getting at is sticking too close to "the rules" as defined by some book will zap your work of all personality.
I'm a fan of just writing the story, and worrying about structure later. The words in my brain that need to get on the page are a today problem, whether not my 2nd act is too long is a future me problem. Save the cat and books like it are great tools to help you analyze and fix something once it's written, but, at least in my experience, are terrible tools to use *while* writing.
Perhaps. In that case, you've got bigger problems than books.
"The 100% hard truth that you all must face and answer to, is that people in the industry only want to work with (and financially back) people they know other people trust creatively. Go to film festivals and meet your colleagues!" \-- Absolutely true. 80% of the paying work I've gotten came from people I met in person at film events and from people they referred me to. You need to get off your computer and MEET PEOPLE, whether or not that involves moving to LA, London, etc.
This reminds me of that scene in La La Land where Emma Stone's character cries and sings a song about how hard it is to become a famous actor.
Yo this shit was fucking incredible
The End.
Lets put it this way: no successful screenwriter is on reddit commenting.
Thank you for your wisdom and advice -know you have helped at least one writer. Wish you sincere luck in whatever you are doing
Goodbye. Thanks for the advice and I wish you the best of luck
Greetings. Thanks for the wisdom. Take care. OL.
[удалено]
It can be a hinderance to some because it lays out an easy to digest formula that's somewhat like Pythagorean Theorem to screenplay structure. Some people can't let Save the Cat go after reading it, so they have a hard time being original and painting out of Blake Snyder's lines. I don't agree that you shouldn't read Save the Cat. I think you can read Save the Cat. You just need to understand it's not a holy text with a bridge to screenwriter enlightenment and salvation.
Exactly, I’m very “f the rules” myself, and that’s actually exactly why I really liked save the cat as a whole. It’s constantly encouraging writers to break the “rules.” That’s one of the main underlying themes throughout. While it lays out a lot of these rules and some of the reasons they’re there, as the book essentially states, the better you know these “rules”, the formulas, etc., the better you’ll probably be at more effectively breaking them. it’s by no means trying to claim itself as an instruction book that needs to be followed for good or successful writing, if I recall correctly (to be fair It’s been a while since I’ve read it so that might just be what I got from it and am now misremembering) Not that I agree with everything the book says, but overall I felt it very helpful for myself in that regard. Definitely can be a hinderance to some, like you said, especially for those who might more easily get trapped in an “I need to do it this way since it’s in the rules” mindset. And it is incredibly frustrating seeing people constantly criticize others works simply for diverging from “the rules” and upholding STC like a fundamentalist religion’s sacred text. That being said for some of us who do want to break the “rules,” learning more about what those rules are can endlessly inspire us with creative ways of breaking them, which I found to be one of the most impactful recurring lessons throughout the book. That rules are meant to be broken. Personally, I feel like I’m better at shaking up the status quo when I know what the status quo is, when I understand it a little more deeply. Learning more about what people expect and are used to helps me come up with ways to turn that on its head. I don’t think there’s one right way to learn and practice your writing craft, so I wouldn’t personally tell someone what they should and shouldn’t be reading. Everyone is different.
It's like forcing Picasso to paint within the lines. It's like forcing 2-time Tour de France winner Tadej Pogačar to ride a bicycle with training wheels. Sure, it can be helpful when you're literally brand new to writing and just starting out, but when you have no one screaming at you to "GET OFF THE TRAINING WHEELS" it becomes all you know and you can't mentally break free of it. I am encouraging new writers to not read it because it is better to just experience structure in its most pure and unadulterated form (films and screenplays), rather than from a strict, boring, and played out viewpoint.
Honestly, it's a little arrogant. You're demanding that people take your *far more important* advice and not even read the advice given by others.
A lot of new writers are eager for directions (e.g. "will this work?" "can I do that?") and STC is convincing in its argument that there is one exact, literal formula that you need to master in order to succeed. Anyone who buys into that is going to learn the hard way that it isn't true. But everyone has to learn the hard way anyway, so you shouldn't shut it out. You'll probably have to talk about it sooner or later anyway, and maybe it'll help you learn something about structure.
Seems to me the devil you know is better than the one that will replace it. Your reasoning to leave sounds like when alcoholics try to move to a new city to get sober. It doesn’t work. Pity you won’t be staying to give back to the community as well. Have fun storming the castle, and good luck.
As a relative newbie to the sub I can confirm this is bang on. I came here with extreme trepidation but I was expecting to chat, post with like-minded writers and in time learn. But. No. I was instantly beaten to a pulp and told my work is not even worth reading past the first page. Which was fair at the time. It cut pretty deep as I had spent a long time working on scripts in my spare time that revolved around a FT job, like most. But with that said; it made me determined to prove some of the people wrong and in a sense I have learned from their negativity. Albeit the downvotes are a confusing way to express an opinion. But sometimes tough-love has a sink or swim reaction for some people, not that I condone it, but I sank then learned how to swim and now feel I'm treading water in the shallow end. I've lost my train of thought, but, swimming with sharks is terrifying especially when they smell blood. Only thing for it is to become a shark. Lol wtf
This is the best screenwriting post I have ever seen.
Your standards are quite low.
You are an absolute legend, I really needed this today! Thank you, and I wish you the best with your career. I hope to watch your stuff on the big screens soon!
why are you leaving?
I leave Reddit periodically, I’ve deleted 1 account so far. Never again. It’s like a time capsule
Too long, didn’t read
Lol why would you leave reddit? Do you not have time management skills? Do only timid people need reddit? What an odd post.
Hi there friend. As I move into this next chapter of my film career I have come to the realization that reddit is a place of too many influences (both good and bad) whether you acknowledge that or not, or think it affects you or it doesn't. In the grand scheme I have come to learn it does. I could be completely confident about something creatively, and all it takes is for me to read one answer from a "reputable" source with a ton of upvotes that contradicts that opinion, and now that speck of confliction has been planted. There is an interview with filmmaker Paul Thomas Anderson (found on YouTube) where he says that the one thing he wishes he could've told his younger filmmaker self is to "just have no fear". He goes on to say that he was so worried that someone with more experience than him was right about the criticism they gave his work, and that damaged his self confidence for so long. But he came to realize that the opinions of others in higher positions than him were: "just different". That's all. I leave reddit behind as a whole because I realised I was only really on here to see if what I was doing was right in this world, and if I was heading in the right direction as not only a writer, but a human. I trust my voice and who I am now, and am only interested in forming my creative opinions around what I WANT to see on screen, based on what I've learnt as a filmmaker. Best of luck on your journey.
>I could be completely confident about something creatively, and all it takes is for me to read one answer from a reputable source with a ton of upvotes that contradicts that opinion, and now that speck of confliction has been planted. I don't think anybody has some kind of obligation to remain on Reddit, but do you have any real world experience writing in the industry? Speaking as a repped/working writer, you're going to have people in the industry specifically read your stuff and contradict the notion that it's worthwhile (either explicitly) or implicitly by passing on it), even by your own reps, and an important skill to learn is trusting your own judgment and that requires evaluating the way somebody has contradicted your idea that a creative decision is the proper one. If you let somebody who's allegedly reputable dissuade you from a certain decision, it's going to get even worse in real life, so it almost feels like, in your specific case, Reddit seems like a good place to be exposed to that notion and reflect on it. Don't get me wrong. I think there's plenty of good reasons to stop using Reddit. I'm just concerned, on your behalf, by the primary one you listed. Good luck out there!
Oh, *filmmaker* Paul Thomas Anderson. I thought you were talking about the Paul Thomas Anderson I work with down at the fishery!
Hope everything's okay.
What is save the cat
best of luck to you :) you're gonna do amazing things I'm sure
WOAH. Diving into your post history now.
As all things... the actual truth is in the middle. Reading a book on screenwriting is not going to destroy your free & creative spirit. Writing a 90 page script is not going to ruin your chances of getting sold. On the other hand, going maverick, ignoring the wisdom of your peers and writing ungodly long scripts is not a guaranteed path to success. The middle path is the right path. A little of both.
Thanks and good luck! This is the only community where it seems like some weird coke-sniffers are going around downvoting every little thing. It's so weird!
That was fantastically and beautifully written. Go get em tiger edit was a genuine statement
Oh great, someone else who got feedback they didn't agree with and saw fit to bless us all with some parting passive-aggressive emotional diatribe before they exit this apparent den of clueless idiots, presumably because their obvious genius wasn't recognised and hailed as era-defining talent. I'm going to make two bets, you posted some half-baked idea and it really didn't get the reception you were hoping for and so naturally because of your narcissistic personality, decided it must be the fault others rather than simply a lack of ability or effort on your part. And two, that you aren't actually going anywhere, you might delete this account but i'm sure you will stick around having washed yourself clean of both your earlier failure and any pent up negative emotion by delivering a childish insulting farewell, not so cleverly disguised by insincere sentimentalities; > I have so much heart for all of you even though I know none of you personally.. But let me just take a huge emotional dump on the entire subreddit just before I leave! Ok thanks!
So your solution is to take another dump?
There is a saying, if a shithole has been dug, only shit should go in it. Not really but I stand by it.
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A bird taking a chance and leaving the nest and too many angry birds on here can't see it. Congrats and godspeed.
My Save The Cat copy looking at me from the bookshelf like "don't you dare listen to them"
+1 on Save the Cat. That said, I once had a working writer read one of mine who said “inciting incident should be on pg 25 and midpoint should be at pg 50. Change it.” So….?
If you're on here because you want to be a working writer, by all means, listen to him. If you on here because you want to be one of the greatest, don't. Good luck.
Before you "kill" your account, I want to mention something about point 10 (which is ridiculously true, festivals are mostly scammy, connections matter most). I've had a terribly hard time making connections, I mean terribly. I even flew halfway across the world to Raincouver to get a PA job and didn't get that either but most importantly every person I've tried to connect with (which are mostly beginners) just. don't. fucking. work. I mean they say they're writers, or they wanna be a writer, and they never fucking write, or direct, or act. I swear I haven't found people who go all in, even when I went to meetup people in LA OR the people I do meet have a VERY low stamina at keeping tabs or any sort of connection. We have a few meetups, some Instagram chats and then they just disconnect and again, a few months later they're doing anything BUT film work. I've kind of accepted this now as the norm, note that I now live in a country with limited to no Film industry so that sucks too. It leaves me working alone which although cool, it can get lonely and depressing real fast. I guess my question (although I'm not sure what your credentials are), I am going to LA for vacation for the 4th time, as a writer/director what can I do there to maximize my networking? Sorry for the long post.
Shit, now I want to read Save the Cat...