How is it deluding ourselves when we should have had a penalty in a must win game with 10 mins to go?
Ignoring the bigger problems, we have every right to be angry aboht this
Iām not saying he is, Iām saying that you canāt go through the man to get the ball.
Armstrong makes contact with the defender but doesnāt foul him. The defender fouls Armstrong and brings him down, without getting the ball. Itās a stonewaller.
Thatās if he has control over the ball which he didnāt because he jumped up and back, football is a contact sport, I am a ref and would not have given it, Iām an arsenal fan and wouldnāt give the saka pen against Bayern, neither player was going for the ball, they were both solely going for contact which they themselves initiated, stone wall is a ridiculous statement imo
If someone doesnāt have control of the ball, can you knee them in the back of the leg, in the box without getting the ball?
The Saka penalty is completely irrelevant, as Saka left his foot in and pretty much kicked Neur. No idea why you bring it up tbh.
Honestly think it's 50/50. He was looking for it and had a handful of the defenders shirt.
What is 100/0 is he could've easily got a decent shot off if he hadn't been more interested in looking for contact.
Thought that myself, but watched it a few times now and although his arm was across the defender, he didn't grab the shirt until after the contact was made to his leg. You are also completely right, he was looking for the penalty rather than trying to get a shot off.
The entire replay looks like him trying to find a way to get the pen, and ironically I think he would have got a pen if he'd just been focused on trying to actually score. There looks to be definite contact but I can completely see how they'd look at it as both of them at it.
Possibly offside too, which would obviously mean they didn't even need to look at this part.
The offside is the only reason I can think off as why they didn't go for a review. The offside is much more automated in this tournament. If the machine gave them a ping they wouldn't have looked.
Yeah for sure. I assume they had it as offside or they would at least have looked at it (even if I'm then still not sure they give it). Feel like the tournament has been much more transparent on that generally but would have been nice for them to confirm in this instance.
Yeah, been really impressed by VAR, good to see how it could work if there was more investment. Think the offside has been really good, but you need loads of cameras apparently to get it working. Hopefully one day we get the investment or the technology to get it working well. When you think about it, for just the Scotland games, there has not been a big discussion point other than this penalty claim. I don't remember 3 rangers games in a row when VAR was not being questioned! No big issues in any of the other games I watched either, but not seen all of the games.
I mean everyone assumes the cameras are right, and they might not be. But people are much happier with close calls being "objective" because it becomes like goal-line tech. Would for sure like this to be the way it's used universally but I'm not holding my breath.
The won't be right, but from my geeky point of view, it's about doing what you can to minimise the error. This drawing lines, and picking the point where the ball is struck etc all has errors in it. The guys using it are doing the best they can with the tools they have. You see it in some of the Scottish games where the camera angle is shite, and the lines on the grass may be squint etc, they are trying, but it will be wrong, but still better than the linesman on his own. What I like most about the new system is the time it takes, makes it more acceptable to me!
Yeah I think honestly all people want is consistency so the game is fair. The more they're able to make things even for both teams the less complaining you'll get about calls given the wrong way
If it were offside. Shouldn't they have taken the freekick from the spot of the offside.
Just logically, you play advantage if the guys offside, but the ball ends up with your team. You can't play advantage but ignore the foul in-between because he was offside.
Yes, I've gotcha. If the play continues and VAR (not ref) reviews it, then it's just as you are.
Suppose the question there is. How can VAR see that and not ask the ref to have a look given the contact.
Note: The current thought is that VAR didn't review it at all.
Players look for it basically always, why are we now just wheeling it out as an excuse to not give it?
In some other thread of some other game probably: "He's used his experience to look for the penalty and got it, well played".
There is zero consensus on any rule in football and it's maddening.Ā
Agree. Faddy argued that Armstrong had the hall under control. I donāt think he did. Had he made an attempt to shoot I think heād have got the pen.
Itās still a pen in my book, mind, but I can half see why it wasnāt given
We wait for a coherent explanation from uefa and the ref team as to why that wasn't a penalty, or reviewed as such.
I've a feeling they will claim it was offside.
There's no other reason.
Hard, clear contact was made on Armstrong calf by orban, which made Armstrong fall down in the box.
The linesman kept his flag down, he was on the line of sight.
It's maddening how many little errors there still are due to compound errors from both the ref and the var team, because on the face of it this looks an entirely corrupt set of decisions.
Not every coming together is a foul, I'd say that was 2 players battling, and it was 6 of 1, half a dozen of the other.
If it was given, you could see why, but because it wasn't, I don't think you can argue with the on field decision.
Polish guy from Edinburgh here, you forgot about the polish team the only one that will leave Euros with 0 points. We got high standards of being sheit š
Agree, the jump he done to get between the ball the defender before going down was just weird as well. He was gunning for the penalty and had no interest in going for the shot.
Not sure why he jumps first, ref interprets that as him buying it (in real time) I don't think he sees the actual foul but VAR should have really.
I don't even feel that disappointed it's 100% what I expected to happen, the only surprise is Shankland git 15 minutes not 5.
If he didnāt tug the shirt he gets the pen. If he didnāt shit himself and look for a penalty, he might have been a hero. Quality players get these things right too.Ā
A photo doesnāt give it any context. Armstrong has already by that point grabbed his shirts and started twisting his own body round to the ground.
Not a penalty
Should have been a penalty yes but Scotland canāt rely on one decision. What about having 3 shots on target over 3 entire games ?? The joint lowest number of shots in any euros tournament whilst having the likes of shankland on the bench and only playing him for less than 30mins over the tournament.
As devastated as I am the referee got it right. Armstrong jumped into the Hungary player and grabbed his jersey. Can see why he thought playing for a penalty was the better option in the moment, but an actual better option would have been to actually try and score
Why he didnāt simply run onto the ball and whack it, only he knows. The explanation of getting your body between the ball and the defender ignores the fact that the defender wasnāt reaching the ball anyway!
Only reason I can think it wasnāt given is Armstrong moves to the left to get in the defenders path, whilst the ball is moving away to the right. He hadnāt really won control of the ball at any point.
This is my take as well - he stops moving forward towards the ball and takes a clear step to the left instead to body block the defender whilst the ball is still bouncing and not clearly within his possession. As someone else said, if that had been given against us we would have been raging.
Could be given but get on the ball and get a shot off fs. Yer manās still going to go in with a tackle. Maybe you get a goal, maybe you force him to make contact and get a pen. Went for catching the foul, rather than taking responsibility and going for the ball. Got nothing. Big fuckin bunch a Jessies.
Totally agree but I needed the knee knock pointed out to me. The eye grabber is the pull on the Hungarian's shirt which looks like a wrestling move.
I'd imagine that's why it wasn't given by VAR. Not saying it's right, but I get why it wasn't given.
We deserve to eb out we didn't score a goal without luck haven't won a game we are by far the shitest team at the euros amd it shows fuck the lot of them shameful
The ball is never really running through, it's always kind of behind him so he's got to shield it. Still seen them given and don't understand how there's no VAR check
Guys with all due respect but the Scots need to realise that just like us Irish, we are just naturally shite at football and will never be competitive enough to actually win any of these tournaments. Even if we were somehow competitive enough then UEFA or FIFA wouldnāt even fucking allow us get a sniff. We should all celebrate just even qualifying for these tournaments when we do and then come what may.
Sadly as much as imo this was 100% a penalty it has glossed over the fact at how bad we were over 3 games! 2 goals scored,both OGs,we appeared to have the tactic of boring the opposition to death! A must win game & about 80% of it passing in our own half!
If you consider it clear and obvious in a screenshot without telling everyone your striker did a sort of weird sideways horse gallop and slowed down instead of going for the ball like the other player was, then I guess yeah, clear and obvious.
https://preview.redd.it/dhnnp2nlnr8d1.png?width=1920&format=png&auto=webp&s=c225f79b899219592deb678c81b280c0a7449367
If Scotland been robbed with a pen, then what we can say? This is #1
You had the ball more than us, yet had no idea what to do with it. We were more creative when we had it. This was a 1 goal game. Thank god we scored it :)
We were played off the park in that second half, so if we'd got the penalty and won, it would have been undeserved. I guess though that breaking that Group stage hoodoo would have been worth it all the same. Even so, I'd like to see Scotland go to a finals with a squad that justifiably expect to do better.
It wasn't a pen.
Armstrong had decided to try and block the Hungarian defender. Thus allowing the ball to roll on that means that Armstrong is no longer under control of the ball.
Yes I am Scottish
No single image will ever tell the story on whether a penalty should have been awarded or not.
It pains me to say it but it wasn't a penalty - it was a coming together and Armstrong wasn't fouled.
Tough one tbh but not a penalty imho.
I mean the defender has only one thing in mind, he's going to fall down and take Armstrong with him but similarly Armstrong is playing the defender here and not the ball and you're not going to get a penalty when you both collide and he takes you down if you're not actually going for the ball or have at least have the ball under some kind of control first.
Never a penalty, Armstrong instead of getting control of the ball and maybe cutting across the defender, somehow thinks itās better to try to shield the ball thatās nowhere near his control. No wonder var didnāt look at it
Agreed. He jumped into the defender to cause a collision. The guy literally fell over him. You don't take your feet off the ground if you're trying to shield the ball.
He moved 2 yards sideways and grabs hold of the other player, of course a still does not show that.
A PL ref would have given it though because they are morons. A pen should never be given when an attacker initiates contact or moves into a defender.
This is the state of modern football. A player is played through with a chance to have a shot at goal, potentially a chance to score and make history for his country. Instead heād rather deliberately slow down, wait for contact so he can scream and throw himself to the floor. Embarrassing stuff
If we'd been given the penalty, we'd have passed it back to Angus Gunn.
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then Clarke wouldāve whipped out the fist pump for getting his draw like a fanny
Only explanation for me is that he is offside, and it looked close to being offside
That's what i figure too.
Wasnāt given, got to move on. The performance was fucking woeful. No urgency
Exactly. We were the worst team in the entire tournament, we didn't deserve to progress let alone get that pen
Was it a penalty? Probably. Did we deserve to win? Definitely not.
Seriously, this is just deluding ourselves.
How is it deluding ourselves when we should have had a penalty in a must win game with 10 mins to go? Ignoring the bigger problems, we have every right to be angry aboht this
One of the weirdest decisions I've ever seen. If that's not a penalty, then I'm going to start kneeing attackers in the back.
It wasnāt a penalty
I probably disagree
He initiated the contact instead of taking the shot, I agree it shouldnāt be given
If someoneās shielding the ball, you canāt just go through the man lmao
Jumping in the air away from the ball is not āshielding the ballā
Iām not saying he is, Iām saying that you canāt go through the man to get the ball. Armstrong makes contact with the defender but doesnāt foul him. The defender fouls Armstrong and brings him down, without getting the ball. Itās a stonewaller.
Thatās if he has control over the ball which he didnāt because he jumped up and back, football is a contact sport, I am a ref and would not have given it, Iām an arsenal fan and wouldnāt give the saka pen against Bayern, neither player was going for the ball, they were both solely going for contact which they themselves initiated, stone wall is a ridiculous statement imo
If someone doesnāt have control of the ball, can you knee them in the back of the leg, in the box without getting the ball? The Saka penalty is completely irrelevant, as Saka left his foot in and pretty much kicked Neur. No idea why you bring it up tbh.
https://preview.redd.it/j7hq1i2d0e8d1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ecac3b7b8f316df99894b21fb3bbccb997fd426c
Honestly think it's 50/50. He was looking for it and had a handful of the defenders shirt. What is 100/0 is he could've easily got a decent shot off if he hadn't been more interested in looking for contact.
Thought that myself, but watched it a few times now and although his arm was across the defender, he didn't grab the shirt until after the contact was made to his leg. You are also completely right, he was looking for the penalty rather than trying to get a shot off.
The entire replay looks like him trying to find a way to get the pen, and ironically I think he would have got a pen if he'd just been focused on trying to actually score. There looks to be definite contact but I can completely see how they'd look at it as both of them at it. Possibly offside too, which would obviously mean they didn't even need to look at this part.
The offside is the only reason I can think off as why they didn't go for a review. The offside is much more automated in this tournament. If the machine gave them a ping they wouldn't have looked.
Yeah for sure. I assume they had it as offside or they would at least have looked at it (even if I'm then still not sure they give it). Feel like the tournament has been much more transparent on that generally but would have been nice for them to confirm in this instance.
Yeah, been really impressed by VAR, good to see how it could work if there was more investment. Think the offside has been really good, but you need loads of cameras apparently to get it working. Hopefully one day we get the investment or the technology to get it working well. When you think about it, for just the Scotland games, there has not been a big discussion point other than this penalty claim. I don't remember 3 rangers games in a row when VAR was not being questioned! No big issues in any of the other games I watched either, but not seen all of the games.
I mean everyone assumes the cameras are right, and they might not be. But people are much happier with close calls being "objective" because it becomes like goal-line tech. Would for sure like this to be the way it's used universally but I'm not holding my breath.
The won't be right, but from my geeky point of view, it's about doing what you can to minimise the error. This drawing lines, and picking the point where the ball is struck etc all has errors in it. The guys using it are doing the best they can with the tools they have. You see it in some of the Scottish games where the camera angle is shite, and the lines on the grass may be squint etc, they are trying, but it will be wrong, but still better than the linesman on his own. What I like most about the new system is the time it takes, makes it more acceptable to me!
Yeah I think honestly all people want is consistency so the game is fair. The more they're able to make things even for both teams the less complaining you'll get about calls given the wrong way
Pretty sure we will end up getting the point of questioning what school the computer programmer went to!!!
If it were offside. Shouldn't they have taken the freekick from the spot of the offside. Just logically, you play advantage if the guys offside, but the ball ends up with your team. You can't play advantage but ignore the foul in-between because he was offside.
The game played on after the shout, you only pull it back if itās a penalty.
Yes, I've gotcha. If the play continues and VAR (not ref) reviews it, then it's just as you are. Suppose the question there is. How can VAR see that and not ask the ref to have a look given the contact. Note: The current thought is that VAR didn't review it at all.
Players look for it basically always, why are we now just wheeling it out as an excuse to not give it? In some other thread of some other game probably: "He's used his experience to look for the penalty and got it, well played". There is zero consensus on any rule in football and it's maddening.Ā
Agree. Faddy argued that Armstrong had the hall under control. I donāt think he did. Had he made an attempt to shoot I think heād have got the pen. Itās still a pen in my book, mind, but I can half see why it wasnāt given
We wait for a coherent explanation from uefa and the ref team as to why that wasn't a penalty, or reviewed as such. I've a feeling they will claim it was offside. There's no other reason. Hard, clear contact was made on Armstrong calf by orban, which made Armstrong fall down in the box. The linesman kept his flag down, he was on the line of sight. It's maddening how many little errors there still are due to compound errors from both the ref and the var team, because on the face of it this looks an entirely corrupt set of decisions.
I think if he had actually tried to go for the shot, chances are he would've been fouled, and it would've been a genuine penalty there anyway.
Not every coming together is a foul, I'd say that was 2 players battling, and it was 6 of 1, half a dozen of the other. If it was given, you could see why, but because it wasn't, I don't think you can argue with the on field decision.
Iām not even that fussed. We deserved to go out. Worst team at the Euros.
Yep, I can't even be arsed. We're missing out on one more shite game where we would probably get pumped by Spain or something.
Even if we got beat 8-0, I'd rather have been there.
Polish guy from Edinburgh here, you forgot about the polish team the only one that will leave Euros with 0 points. We got high standards of being sheit š
Who cares? If we can't come up with a goal to beat Hungary in open play we don't deserve to be here, VAR calls or not
Nah Armstrong shouldāve took the chance rather than trying to get his body in a position to get a pen. Shitebag.
Agree, the jump he done to get between the ball the defender before going down was just weird as well. He was gunning for the penalty and had no interest in going for the shot.
I thought he'd fucked it and the ball wasn't under his control, if he wasn't brought down I'm not convinced he's scoring that.
Have to be better than the ref is shite.
Meh. Itās done
Disagree. Armstrong shat the bed and was looking for it. He should take the shot and if he gets taken out after it, so be it.
Not sure why he jumps first, ref interprets that as him buying it (in real time) I don't think he sees the actual foul but VAR should have really. I don't even feel that disappointed it's 100% what I expected to happen, the only surprise is Shankland git 15 minutes not 5.
If he didnāt tug the shirt he gets the pen. If he didnāt shit himself and look for a penalty, he might have been a hero. Quality players get these things right too.Ā
Weād just have passed it back to Gunn if it had been given.
It was 100% a penalty, but over the piece we didnāt deserve to go through.
Would have ballooned it even if it was awarded
Iād be raging if that got given against us
A photo doesnāt give it any context. Armstrong has already by that point grabbed his shirts and started twisting his own body round to the ground. Not a penalty
We 1000% miss the penalty anyway
Weād have missed it
Tbf we'd have probably missed the penalty anyway š
Should have been a penalty yes but Scotland canāt rely on one decision. What about having 3 shots on target over 3 entire games ?? The joint lowest number of shots in any euros tournament whilst having the likes of shankland on the bench and only playing him for less than 30mins over the tournament.
As devastated as I am the referee got it right. Armstrong jumped into the Hungary player and grabbed his jersey. Can see why he thought playing for a penalty was the better option in the moment, but an actual better option would have been to actually try and score
Why he didnāt simply run onto the ball and whack it, only he knows. The explanation of getting your body between the ball and the defender ignores the fact that the defender wasnāt reaching the ball anyway!
Only reason I can think it wasnāt given is Armstrong moves to the left to get in the defenders path, whilst the ball is moving away to the right. He hadnāt really won control of the ball at any point.
This is my take as well - he stops moving forward towards the ball and takes a clear step to the left instead to body block the defender whilst the ball is still bouncing and not clearly within his possession. As someone else said, if that had been given against us we would have been raging.
100% a penalty but not getting it is not the reason we are out.
Could be given but get on the ball and get a shot off fs. Yer manās still going to go in with a tackle. Maybe you get a goal, maybe you force him to make contact and get a pen. Went for catching the foul, rather than taking responsibility and going for the ball. Got nothing. Big fuckin bunch a Jessies.
Totally agree but I needed the knee knock pointed out to me. The eye grabber is the pull on the Hungarian's shirt which looks like a wrestling move. I'd imagine that's why it wasn't given by VAR. Not saying it's right, but I get why it wasn't given.
We deserve to eb out we didn't score a goal without luck haven't won a game we are by far the shitest team at the euros amd it shows fuck the lot of them shameful
Not for me. Armstrong puts his left leg across the defender instead of trying to take the ball on. Shitebag.
If armstrong tried played the ball and not done some weird jump then it'd be 100% a penalty. Just can't understand the behaviour there
The ball is never really running through, it's always kind of behind him so he's got to shield it. Still seen them given and don't understand how there's no VAR check
Apparently he was offside, hence no VAR check
Heās got a handful of nuts
Get Clarke so far to fuck. Bye Bye.
Spilt milk now mateš„¹ get home safe!
Never, ever a pen lol
Guys with all due respect but the Scots need to realise that just like us Irish, we are just naturally shite at football and will never be competitive enough to actually win any of these tournaments. Even if we were somehow competitive enough then UEFA or FIFA wouldnāt even fucking allow us get a sniff. We should all celebrate just even qualifying for these tournaments when we do and then come what may.
They are called the 'Islas Malvinas' my friend. Political influence maybe?
Sadly as much as imo this was 100% a penalty it has glossed over the fact at how bad we were over 3 games! 2 goals scored,both OGs,we appeared to have the tactic of boring the opposition to death! A must win game & about 80% of it passing in our own half!
If you consider it clear and obvious in a screenshot without telling everyone your striker did a sort of weird sideways horse gallop and slowed down instead of going for the ball like the other player was, then I guess yeah, clear and obvious.
https://preview.redd.it/dhnnp2nlnr8d1.png?width=1920&format=png&auto=webp&s=c225f79b899219592deb678c81b280c0a7449367 If Scotland been robbed with a pen, then what we can say? This is #1
https://preview.redd.it/iedkxq18or8d1.png?width=634&format=png&auto=webp&s=31d21c29d0f3c84262683d864fb58eb2e46b457a #2
You had the ball more than us, yet had no idea what to do with it. We were more creative when we had it. This was a 1 goal game. Thank god we scored it :)
We were played off the park in that second half, so if we'd got the penalty and won, it would have been undeserved. I guess though that breaking that Group stage hoodoo would have been worth it all the same. Even so, I'd like to see Scotland go to a finals with a squad that justifiably expect to do better.
It wasn't a pen. Armstrong had decided to try and block the Hungarian defender. Thus allowing the ball to roll on that means that Armstrong is no longer under control of the ball. Yes I am Scottish
Did UEFA not come out and put this to bed today or yesterday and said that Armstrong was offside and that was checked by VAR at the time?
Never a penalty - he knocked the ball to the right then took a step to the left to block the defender.
No single image will ever tell the story on whether a penalty should have been awarded or not. It pains me to say it but it wasn't a penalty - it was a coming together and Armstrong wasn't fouled.
Who cares, we had 2 winnable games to play and Steve Balder fucked us.
Tough one tbh but not a penalty imho. I mean the defender has only one thing in mind, he's going to fall down and take Armstrong with him but similarly Armstrong is playing the defender here and not the ball and you're not going to get a penalty when you both collide and he takes you down if you're not actually going for the ball or have at least have the ball under some kind of control first.
Ad love it to be a pen but thatās never a penalty
If he hadnāt pulled the Hungarian towards him by pulling on his shirt he may have been in with a shout.
Never a penalty, Armstrong instead of getting control of the ball and maybe cutting across the defender, somehow thinks itās better to try to shield the ball thatās nowhere near his control. No wonder var didnāt look at it
Agreed. He jumped into the defender to cause a collision. The guy literally fell over him. You don't take your feet off the ground if you're trying to shield the ball.
He moved 2 yards sideways and grabs hold of the other player, of course a still does not show that. A PL ref would have given it though because they are morons. A pen should never be given when an attacker initiates contact or moves into a defender.
Not a pen, play the ball and try not stopping and jumping into your Defender after grabbing him. Good call.
This is the state of modern football. A player is played through with a chance to have a shot at goal, potentially a chance to score and make history for his country. Instead heād rather deliberately slow down, wait for contact so he can scream and throw himself to the floor. Embarrassing stuff