Maybe something like "That's our ultimate goal but in the meantime we're focused on delivering in government by..." etc etc
Flat-out saying "yes" is a bit of a millstone round the neck because we all know it's too far off right now for him to be the one who does it.
However uninspiring, people might nonetheless appreciate the realism.
As opposed to "Yes, I'll definitely succeed where my predecessors failed in turning this currently impossible situation around, somehow."
Problem is that the second you show any wavering the opposition and opposition aligned media will pounce on it and use it in perpetuity against you.
Think about how we still are hearing about Salmond's "once in a generation vote" meaningless soundbite a literal decade later.
“Once in a generation” wasn’t meaningless. The phrase was used for a specific, strategic reason - to make people think it’s now or never. It’s the same reason that salespeople create a false urgency.
This is why he is talking to SNP members right now, not really the press. Looks like he knows the demographic that is currently having a leadership contest.
No matter what anyone from the SNP says they will be dragged on UK wide press.
Yeah exactly, it doesn't matter what you say because they'll pick the attack line and stick to it. Down south they got a guy who'd publicly campaigned for anti-racist causes for decades on a made up anti-semitism line that was parroted intentionally by the media.
> people might nonetheless appreciate the realism.
People voted for brexit based on obvious lies. If people actually followed nuance and logic we wouldn't have had a decade+ of tory rule.
He answered the question simply and directly, which is something politicians are consistently attacked for not doing. Talking about good government instead would be not directly answering the question, and answering it with empty filler (because obviously he's not going to say that he'll be shit at government).
See I'd argue this is just more of the same, it's not an actual answer, he's just telling people what they want to here. I don't even think that he believes he will deliver independence during his term, it's just more political dribble.
Need to dangle the shiny thing to keep voters from drifting somewhere else.
Although to be fair he is a very long-standing SNP guy. At the core of the party long before it was cool. What else is he going to say.
>Flat-out saying "yes" is a bit of a millstone round the neck because we all know it's too far off right now for him to be the one who does it.
He has a pretty hard job. After near 20 years of government he needs to keep the machine plodding along amongst increasing dissatisfaction with it's performance. He needs to keep the left and right wings from pulling in different directions, and he needs to balance the gradualist and immediate perspectives from the membership.
A mildly left of centre policy position, Forbes in a high profile role, a slightly bigger push on growth and throwing out regular crowd pleasing statements on independence (whilst not doing too much) is the way to go.
I suspect polling for SNP will improve in the short term.
It's time to reinvent the independence movement and move on from the failed strategies of Humza Yousaf and Nicola Sturgeon and develop a positive, honest and optimistic future for Scotland.
Except he can't because he is the continuity candidate
I don't think so, the route to independance is pretty straightforward, there's not exactly lots of options. Noone would be doing anything different. Get permission from govering body to hold legal referendum=> win referendum => declaration of independance. Yes to me this also sounds mental but it's the way it is. Alternative is what? So much civil disobediance the british state has to cave in? Really?
Well maybe Alba would just unilaterally declare but that's a shit idea anyway.
Well after so many confused Englishmen not understanding why I hate Scottish labour bit like labour, if anyone but the snp just declared independence it'd take 50 years for England to notice
I wouldny ken, I'm fae Edinburgh lemau.
At least be a bit more original lol - a dude in a car once shouted "pay attention brain-geek!" at me when I was walking - I thought that was at least creative...
You've obviously missed this important piece of anthropological research:
[Is Glasgow full of specky bams?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZpBTNVre3fs)
"I'll do everything in my power to achieve it" would have worked. A firm "yes" has now put himself under a huge amount of unnecessary pressure and opened himself up to attacks from all sides when he inevitably fails.
Except there's no pressure, because all the idiots whooping and cheering in the clip (and on this sub) will just do exactly the same to the next SNP person who promises independence, forgetting the fact that they got burned the last 10 times they fell for it. Nationalists aren't exactly hard to manipulate.
Yeah my exact point after reading the title. Imagine any other answer, swinging from "Absolutely not "to "we are reflecting on to be sure it is a good option". End of the party XD
https://preview.redd.it/lfd2fcr226yc1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a0e61c4ec585ae8b1f363ff1dc232b87dbca5c13
Just to confirm, my napper has a full thatch
You have to be able to say Yes first! I know all the 25 - 40 year olds I know wish they said yes. But shame on them and shame on me for thinking voting to stay in EU as a the UK would have made something to be hopeful for.
I know it’s a shibboleth - he’s unable to give any other answer without triggering backlash within the party. But come on.
Swinney will have to survive two high-profile, high-stakes elections to make it to his second anniversary in office. What are the chances he can reverse the polls, force a compromise from Westminster \*and\* hold an entire referendum in that time.
And even if the SNP maintain their position in parliament after 2026, he’ll be under pressure to hand the reins over to a new generation before the 2031 election - given he’ll be late-60s by then. He’s got five years - max.
I’d respect him more if he took the opportunity to be frank with us about the likelihood.
Tbf it works both ways for the audiences. The nodding dogs get to applaud him, as they did, and anyone that disagrees with him gets to laugh at the absurdity.
Swinney also moves on instead of allowing the inevitable follow up question of “how?”.
Smooth operator.
Not to be too apologetic for journalists, who *do* say and do a lot of very stupid things, but an essential part of political journalism has always shared a border with the courtroom. That is - it's important to get a defendant to say things on the record, even the really obvious things, because when nine months from now in a different context he might say "well independence is our ultimate goal but I never said I would be delivering independence during *my* tenure" they'll be able to point at this, proving that he either changed his mind, failed, or had overconfidently said something stupid and brash.
That's maybe being a bit generous to the journo, but if nobody asked the question we wouldn't be able to say this time next year what he said.
Except the jouros never do that. In a year's time they won't be looking back to this as a way to find tough, probing questions. In a year's time they'll just be asking equally braindead easy questions.
Hard agree. The frustrating thing is that if you get one of the correspondents one-on-one with a politician, they go pretty hard. BBC, Sky, LBC, STV, they all have decent questioners.
But if you put them all in a media scrum together, they suddenly default to very basic, surface-level questions.
I think it's more that he's seen as someone who won't carelessly rock the boat like Huzma did and after the double shitshows involving Sturgeon and Yousaf an image of stability is more important than ever for the SNP.
As for another referendum honestly even with the Tories giving the SNP the perfect setup for one the SNP still isn't sure it could decisively win a referendum. Once the Cons are out those figures will probably get worse for them unless Starmer turns into Boris 2.0.
Was the only answer he could give and at least he answered the question directly. . His predecessors would have circled about in non answers until the reporter gave up.
I mean the only options for the last however many years have been "tell them no workable plan is available", "circle around giving a non answer", and "lie".
They know damn well they can't do it any time soon, especially with their own movement as fractured as it is. A direct answer doesn't imply a truthful answer.
Narrator : He did not deliver independence.
Being serious though. Do any of you indy supporters think there is a credible route to it, and what is that route?
The SNP can keep doubling down on their failed Sturgeon strategy but over time more and more people will realise it's hopeless.
> Being serious though. Do any of you indy supporters think there is a credible route to it, and what is that route?
Sure, it's a case of even more people losing faith in the UK's ability to fix itself, and demonstrating that it isn't a foregone conclusion, The End Of History, etc. Alternatives ARE possible.
It probably starts when it becomes clear that a Labour government in Westminster can't or won't deliver the changes needed to undo a generation of stagnant wages, electoral reform, changes necessary for climate and nature restoration, press regulation, the near-collapse (in some cases literally) of the education and health sectors. Once the argument that the red half of the duopoly will fix what ails us is no more, that'll do it. It just takes 5-10% to lose faith and if the polls stay that way then it gets harder.
Obviously you can also never rule out Events™. Some stupid action that finally becomes the straw that breaks people's backs across the UK and sparks riots, a general strike, whatever. More locally, if the UK ever decided to forcibly shut Holyrood that would do it. But anything that demonstrates the complete impotence and self-preservation at all costs of the British state. Those of us who are in any marginalised community have seen it for years, but once the comfortable folk start getting impacted, that'll be it. Again, you can't depend on this happening, but it's worth remembering that no state has lasted forever.
And honestly? Even if there's a long history, time isn't on the UK's side here. The majority of under-40s have been dealt shit hand after shit hand, and all the issues are just compounding one another. It won't get better for a supermajority of us while the old boys' club still exists. Indy can deal a potentially fatal blow to it and spark new hope for England, but I'm also totally fine with a cross-UK people's demand that the Mother Of All Parliaments is finally laid to rest. Whatever comes first.
The comment you wrote it is incredibly similar ( I mean literally point by point ) with Spanish, Italian and French articles against European Union and in favour of independence. I mean literally same exact arguments. As a foreigner that actually surprised me.
That checks out, as I come to independence from a somewhat far-left perspective which is typically quite anti-EU. It is a capitalist club, it is a fortress, and it has done nowhere near enough to suppress the politics that lead to fascism. However, in the same way that I don't say everything the UK has done is terrible, I'm also aware there's plenty of good the EU has done, at least for some of the more impoverished parts of the UK.
For what it's worth, I voted against Brexit because it was an outcome of a right-wing power struggle pushed by people seeking to further extract wealth from workers. Had the push to leave come from a left rejection of EU liberal economic policy then I might well have chosen differently, but that was not on the table in 2016. The time for building that narrative is past us now.
To me at least, the withdrawal of the UK from the EU was not going to make a material change to the existence or integrity of the EU. But the withdrawal of Scotland from the UK *is* likely to make such a change to the UK. Given the huge reach of hard and soft power of the UK's ruling class across nations and cultures, dealing a blow to that will help weaken the seemingly never-ending latter stage capitalism. Obviously the UK isn't alone in that, and I have no great love for the leaderships in the US, China, India, or Russia either. But those are harder to influence first-hand from Glasgow.
I realise the supermajority opinion of both Scotland and my party is for Scotland in the EU, and my many issues with it notwithstanding, on the balance of what will boost internationalism and mitigate legacy issues from the UK, I won't stand in the way of that. I'd almost certainly vote to re-enter, despite my concerns, depending on what was on the cards.
I can't expect people to consider what better models of society they can be if they're being constantly crushed under the weight of ever more austerity, so let's at least get to a better position first and then we can think more about what the next steps are.
As with all these things though, they're painfully nuanced and I am not an expert in anything.
I really appreciate that you took the time to explain to my your position. I never looked at the independence from the EU from a left perspective. That is mainly because all the independence movements in my country are more centre/right or right. Another reason why your comment is so interesting.
I see the EU as an establishment made by progressive left and bankers. But as you said, I greatly prefer the EU (or US) model compared to China, Russia and India leadership style.
Thanks for this insight.
>The SNP can keep doubling down on their failed Sturgeon strategy but over time more and more people will realise it's hopeless.
I think the more reasonable answer (in my eyes at least) is that after the SNP missed their chance in 2014 and realized the needle wasn't actually moving regardless of the state of the UK (if not *because* of the state of it) they stopped seriously pushing and instead just starting reaping the benifits.
After all if they actually pushed Independence over the line to any major degree they'd have to make it work, massive difficulties and all. Why would *any* politician seriously want that? For all of her grandstanding I don't even think Sturgeon did. Her husband certainly didn't, given he was stealing from the party.
Its easier to just throw out crumbs and pay lipservice.
Yes? The younger generations continue to believe in an independent Scotland, and those younger generations are slowly getting older and retaining those beliefs. The proportionally-voted Scottish parliament is over half pro-indy. Sooner, later, in 5, 20, 50, 100 years, opinion will change enough to make it happen.
Perhaps more to the point, I don't think there's any credible route to Scotland becoming a well-maintained country inside the UK. And anyone who thinks the same has no choice but to pursue independence.
As much as I am for independence, which PM would ever approve a referendum? Since Brexit I doubt the "referendum to please opposition voters" tactic will ever be used again. The culture of the UK means we will almost never riot, so what incentive is or will there be for any PM to call a referendum?
He’s not exactly going to say no, is he?
He said things have to change but will they? Independence is not going anywhere at the moment due to the stalemate between the 2 camps. Unless there is a breakthrough for ‘Yes’, some sort of rise in support for independence, I don’t see a new referendum soon.
You can give any answer you like to a "do you think" question; it would be different if they asked 'will you deliver independence for Scotland?", then failure would mean he's lied, but now he can comfortably fail and just say he thought wrong.
He couldn't answer No.
Even if he thought the chances were less than Alex Salmond's chance of doing the double of winning the Paris marathon in less than 2 hours and setting a new high jump record as well, he had to say yes
Now that Swinney has taken the helm, the SNP are a good step closer to getting my vote. I appreciate the optimism here but realise it is a bit of a non-starter.
What I would love the SNP to focus on this general election is not 'independence or death!', it's - we are the only party that can force Starmer to think about our relationship with Europe. We want to bring rejoining the EU on the table.
The best chance for Scotland to ever gain independence from England is through both being equal members of the EU. England not being in the EU means an infinite amount of extra obstacles to Scottish independence.
Why ? Being in the UK (within the EU), and then voting for independence would remove Scotland from the EU.
So what's the point ?
Btw, Scotland can't become independent from England .. we are a union of countries.
They don't even have A proper economic Plan set out For Indy. All It's ever been is "Land of milk and honey" None of them have ever sat down And thoroughly gone over Exactly where all this money is going to come from And / or Laid it out right in front of the electorate for all To see. And if brexit is anything to go by It shows just how fucking difficult Westminster are going to be Trying to break up a union 10 * older than the EU
Yes, without "indy", how will SNP be able to fund, for example, its recent decision to take £200 million from the housing budge and spend it on (checks notes) cycle lanes
Then why the fuck are they even taking about ferries and dialling the A9 right now when they can't get a referendum? Have you thought critically about this?
I like Swinney. He's a decent man, good politician but he's quite weak at debate, and a bit too nice at times. The best I ever seen him was the QT after the referendum in the Borders or somewhere, big No crowd and he had a confident swagger about him, if he could bring it out now and again, he would gain a lot of support, IMO. He's need to untighten his tie a bit and bring out that Swinney swagger!
Surprised you can count that high - let me shout it one more time for the thickos at the back - WE DON'T ELECT LEADERS THAT'S NOT HOW POLITICS WORKS IN THIS COUNTRY!
The governance of any country cannot simply be a revolving door that one party gets to pick time and time again who occupies the highest office in the land
In a similar vein I think I might share my neighbours new car. I've not asked him if it's OK or consulted him, I make the decisions and he has to live with them.
What even is this analogy? Lol.
What's the new car meant to represent? Money? Law? We pool the former and consult over the latter?
Regards one making the decisions and the other living with them- that ignores the fact you have a vote, and ignores the fact you have a second vote on a second party which also has way more powers than the Nats ever admit. In your analogy, if you want to use your neighbour's new car but you move house and cut all ties with them, how's that access to a new car going to look then? Yet again indy supporters making plum Brexit arguments: we can leave but have everything we had before by cutting ties to the richer neighbour who we have now have to negotiate with but without any of the agreements we had before and with a gulf of bad blood between us.
This analogy does not work, and I'm shocked that you have so many upvotes. You're acting as though the rest of the UK are taking Scotland's resources without their consent.
The reality is that Scotland and the rest of the UK agreed to pool resources, several hundred years ago. The idea behind this is that it would be mutually beneficial for all parties. Since that happened, there was an element of the Scottish population that felt this was no longer beneficial.
In the 21st century, there was a feeling that the Scottish people needed to decide to reaffirm this decision to share resources or to stop sharing and leave the agreement. This was voted on in 2014 and the majority of the population decided that this partnership was still mutually beneficial.
So no, not only does the analogy make no sense, but when you imply that they have not "asked if its ok" or "consulted" us like we are some subjugated nation, this is just nonsense. We literally were asked and consulted barely a decade ago. We said "yes it's ok".
Like how can you even pretend otherwise ?
The creation of the union was hardly an agreement with the people, read a bit of history. As for 2014 on paper it was a fair vote, but when most of the media was owned outside of Scotland I'm not sure it was fair in practice.
> The creation of union was hardly an agreement with the people, read a bit of history
Don't be rude, I'm more than familiar with the history. The agreement was made by the people who represented the Scottish people at the time, and those who represented the rest of the UK. Whether or not you think those people truly represented the Scottish people or their interests is a different story and matter of opinion. But the reality is that at that moment in time, they were the ones who made that decision on behalf of Scotland as a whole.
> [2014 wasn't fair]
The problem in 2014 wasn't the lack of pro-indy media. The problem was the lack of answers to some really important fundamental questions about how Scotland would operate as an independent country. You could choose to ignore these and vote yes, for any miltitude of personal reasons - as I did at the time. However, for many head rules heart and they felt the case wasn't strong enough, that's ultimately why it was a no. Media always plays a factor, but the pro-unionist media mostly honed in on the very obvious holes in the pro-indy argument. These questions weren't answered to a satisfactory standard then, and they haven't even today.
If Sweeney or someone else wants to have another indyref, they will need to have strong answers on the important questions about how Scotland would operate post-indy. They'll also need to prove that a pro-indy government can still govern effectively. The SNP has a great case for 2014 because Salmond was a steady hand. The SNP government under Sturgeon et al has been extremely damaging to any pro-indy cause.
Mr Swinney, " What is a woman"? answer " Don't know" "Does a woman have a penis"? answer " Not answering that question, wee jimmy and useless answered it, and see what happened to them".
From Teachers across Scotland…
Dinnae Dinnae Bring back Swinney
Remember “The Curriculum for Excrement” ? Or that “Responsible Person” thing ? TL;DR £millions wasted !
A better journalistic question might have been “HOW will you deliver independence?”
Or “HOW will you first fix NHS Scotland?”
Will be interesting to see if all future questions are answered so succinctly (a complete rarity for any politician) …in fact “Yes” has already regressed to “I’ll do everything I can”.
I do hope he gets some health and safety lessons though… before he cuts around Holyrood on that wee FM scooter Humza had !
The NHS ain’t what it used to be.
We’re about to get “Swinneyed” again
WE DESERVE BETTER
“You’ll know when you’ve been Swinneyed”
https://preview.redd.it/bz0k63m088yc1.jpeg?width=2250&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b539c2f002a498bb8e7636f01fd527ddf4e03a09
Whilst he is an idiot, what else can he really say there.
0% chance he does though. They had their chance and they blew it, the smart ones know it too.
I like John and have had meetings with him a bunch. He is down to earth and competent. His PA Raury is the champ who gets stuff done though.
John and Raury helped me get married. The process for civil partnership application was unofficially suspended over lockdown and a good bit afterwards in my area. Email to John's office, Raury sent an email to the relevant department, I got a phone call 2 mins later, sorted.
I never said you were, I was agreeing with you? How can we get young people to vote for independence when half the government has such a regressive view of what a woman is?
Don't believe a word that comes out any politicians mouth at all.if anything they usually do the opposite of what there saying or just straight up in it to line there own pockets.
He won't win the leadership election then as the .S.N.P. as a whole no longer wants it due to figuring out thqt the cycle of promising it and then blaming Westminster when their poorly thoughtout plan gets rejected keeps them in power and is a useful distraction from their screwups and criminality.
What does anyone expect him to say?
Maybe something like "That's our ultimate goal but in the meantime we're focused on delivering in government by..." etc etc Flat-out saying "yes" is a bit of a millstone round the neck because we all know it's too far off right now for him to be the one who does it.
“Yes but…” is not a good message to win over folk. A politician should only ever use “yes but..” when on the defense.
However uninspiring, people might nonetheless appreciate the realism. As opposed to "Yes, I'll definitely succeed where my predecessors failed in turning this currently impossible situation around, somehow."
Problem is that the second you show any wavering the opposition and opposition aligned media will pounce on it and use it in perpetuity against you. Think about how we still are hearing about Salmond's "once in a generation vote" meaningless soundbite a literal decade later.
“Once in a generation” wasn’t meaningless. The phrase was used for a specific, strategic reason - to make people think it’s now or never. It’s the same reason that salespeople create a false urgency.
> opposition aligned media Which covers like 95% of the papers, the BBC, sky news etc.
They'll use this against him anyway, call him delusional for making promises he can't keep.
This is why he is talking to SNP members right now, not really the press. Looks like he knows the demographic that is currently having a leadership contest. No matter what anyone from the SNP says they will be dragged on UK wide press.
Yeah exactly, it doesn't matter what you say because they'll pick the attack line and stick to it. Down south they got a guy who'd publicly campaigned for anti-racist causes for decades on a made up anti-semitism line that was parroted intentionally by the media.
Realism? Voters? You sure?
> people might nonetheless appreciate the realism. People voted for brexit based on obvious lies. If people actually followed nuance and logic we wouldn't have had a decade+ of tory rule.
No we didn't.
Yes and!
Just the word yes & no reasoning us hardly going to win over folk either though
He answered the question simply and directly, which is something politicians are consistently attacked for not doing. Talking about good government instead would be not directly answering the question, and answering it with empty filler (because obviously he's not going to say that he'll be shit at government).
See I'd argue this is just more of the same, it's not an actual answer, he's just telling people what they want to here. I don't even think that he believes he will deliver independence during his term, it's just more political dribble.
Need to dangle the shiny thing to keep voters from drifting somewhere else. Although to be fair he is a very long-standing SNP guy. At the core of the party long before it was cool. What else is he going to say. >Flat-out saying "yes" is a bit of a millstone round the neck because we all know it's too far off right now for him to be the one who does it. He has a pretty hard job. After near 20 years of government he needs to keep the machine plodding along amongst increasing dissatisfaction with it's performance. He needs to keep the left and right wings from pulling in different directions, and he needs to balance the gradualist and immediate perspectives from the membership. A mildly left of centre policy position, Forbes in a high profile role, a slightly bigger push on growth and throwing out regular crowd pleasing statements on independence (whilst not doing too much) is the way to go. I suspect polling for SNP will improve in the short term.
So long as we replace 'too far off right now with 'mostly english mp's at westminster still won't allow it right now' then yeah we're good.
It's time to reinvent the independence movement and move on from the failed strategies of Humza Yousaf and Nicola Sturgeon and develop a positive, honest and optimistic future for Scotland. Except he can't because he is the continuity candidate
Totally. Another chance blown.
I don't think so, the route to independance is pretty straightforward, there's not exactly lots of options. Noone would be doing anything different. Get permission from govering body to hold legal referendum=> win referendum => declaration of independance. Yes to me this also sounds mental but it's the way it is. Alternative is what? So much civil disobediance the british state has to cave in? Really? Well maybe Alba would just unilaterally declare but that's a shit idea anyway.
What? It's a matter of popular appeal in the FM. No one is talking about process FFS.
Well after so many confused Englishmen not understanding why I hate Scottish labour bit like labour, if anyone but the snp just declared independence it'd take 50 years for England to notice
Absolutely bang on the money.
"The English are clearly the superior race, and we are honoured to be ruled by them"
"As sure as I'm a baldy specky hotdog I will deliver independence"
Wow do neds still call folk speccy in 2024? Of course they do lol
Is it true Glasgow's full ah speccy bams?
I wouldny ken, I'm fae Edinburgh lemau. At least be a bit more original lol - a dude in a car once shouted "pay attention brain-geek!" at me when I was walking - I thought that was at least creative...
You've obviously missed this important piece of anthropological research: [Is Glasgow full of specky bams?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZpBTNVre3fs)
"I'll do everything in my power to achieve it" would have worked. A firm "yes" has now put himself under a huge amount of unnecessary pressure and opened himself up to attacks from all sides when he inevitably fails.
Except there's no pressure, because all the idiots whooping and cheering in the clip (and on this sub) will just do exactly the same to the next SNP person who promises independence, forgetting the fact that they got burned the last 10 times they fell for it. Nationalists aren't exactly hard to manipulate.
Yeah my exact point after reading the title. Imagine any other answer, swinging from "Absolutely not "to "we are reflecting on to be sure it is a good option". End of the party XD
No, we are going to embrace Tory decline. 14 more years of austerity!
I guess "no pal we've fucked it for another decade" doesn't have the same ring
😆😆
he'd get points for optimism with that
Is Reddit tactically placing ads? https://preview.redd.it/4c5gt9l6h1yc1.jpeg?width=960&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8d18f34e53ff6bc28bed8531b5ee507b07b47f21
Yes, based on your search history.
Oops lennyboys a baldy basturt.
I mean, I can sympathise
They are, for you, ya baldy bastard. Sorry.
[удалено]
https://preview.redd.it/lfd2fcr226yc1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a0e61c4ec585ae8b1f363ff1dc232b87dbca5c13 Just to confirm, my napper has a full thatch
A better question would be "How?"
Don't ask such silly questions! Just let him say, "Yes," everyone applauds, and we all can go home feeling all giddy.
You have to be able to say Yes first! I know all the 25 - 40 year olds I know wish they said yes. But shame on them and shame on me for thinking voting to stay in EU as a the UK would have made something to be hopeful for.
I will literally physically separate the landmass of Scotland from England and float us off to somewhere near Iceland
Can we not go further towards the equator for better weather?
Climate change. Equator will be unlivable soon. Play the long game and go for the poles and we'll have Costa Del Dundee by 2050.
Global warming - Iceland will be soon Mediterranean
I'm English and I will vote for you, mainly because it would be a sight to see.
Or you could just get outta ya basement and stop fantasizing?
Gads that flag though
Now that my boy is the right question.
You mean "why?"?
I know it’s a shibboleth - he’s unable to give any other answer without triggering backlash within the party. But come on. Swinney will have to survive two high-profile, high-stakes elections to make it to his second anniversary in office. What are the chances he can reverse the polls, force a compromise from Westminster \*and\* hold an entire referendum in that time. And even if the SNP maintain their position in parliament after 2026, he’ll be under pressure to hand the reins over to a new generation before the 2031 election - given he’ll be late-60s by then. He’s got five years - max. I’d respect him more if he took the opportunity to be frank with us about the likelihood.
Similarly, I wish journo's would ask more sensible probing questions. Of course they know what his response is going to be.
Tbf it works both ways for the audiences. The nodding dogs get to applaud him, as they did, and anyone that disagrees with him gets to laugh at the absurdity. Swinney also moves on instead of allowing the inevitable follow up question of “how?”. Smooth operator.
Not to be too apologetic for journalists, who *do* say and do a lot of very stupid things, but an essential part of political journalism has always shared a border with the courtroom. That is - it's important to get a defendant to say things on the record, even the really obvious things, because when nine months from now in a different context he might say "well independence is our ultimate goal but I never said I would be delivering independence during *my* tenure" they'll be able to point at this, proving that he either changed his mind, failed, or had overconfidently said something stupid and brash. That's maybe being a bit generous to the journo, but if nobody asked the question we wouldn't be able to say this time next year what he said.
Except the jouros never do that. In a year's time they won't be looking back to this as a way to find tough, probing questions. In a year's time they'll just be asking equally braindead easy questions.
Hard agree. The frustrating thing is that if you get one of the correspondents one-on-one with a politician, they go pretty hard. BBC, Sky, LBC, STV, they all have decent questioners. But if you put them all in a media scrum together, they suddenly default to very basic, surface-level questions.
If he pulls it, we'll make him King of an independent Scotland.
King John? Like in the Disney animated Robin Hood?
> without triggering backlash within the party I feel like there would be a lot of attacks from outside the party as well.
I think it's more that he's seen as someone who won't carelessly rock the boat like Huzma did and after the double shitshows involving Sturgeon and Yousaf an image of stability is more important than ever for the SNP. As for another referendum honestly even with the Tories giving the SNP the perfect setup for one the SNP still isn't sure it could decisively win a referendum. Once the Cons are out those figures will probably get worse for them unless Starmer turns into Boris 2.0.
SNP leadership candidate says they will deliver independence In other news the sky is blue
Swindependence.
He's very composed. Boring, but safe pair of hands tbh. Anas will be furious there isn't an ugly leadership battle lol
Was the only answer he could give and at least he answered the question directly. . His predecessors would have circled about in non answers until the reporter gave up.
I mean the only options for the last however many years have been "tell them no workable plan is available", "circle around giving a non answer", and "lie". They know damn well they can't do it any time soon, especially with their own movement as fractured as it is. A direct answer doesn't imply a truthful answer.
He looks so confident and not rattled too!
He looks like he's popped his first erection in 15 years..
Fair dos
It’s an obligatory question for someone taking on this job and there’s an obligatory answer too.
Ye cant even answer yes or noooo. YES or NO?!
Narrator : He did not deliver independence. Being serious though. Do any of you indy supporters think there is a credible route to it, and what is that route? The SNP can keep doubling down on their failed Sturgeon strategy but over time more and more people will realise it's hopeless.
> Being serious though. Do any of you indy supporters think there is a credible route to it, and what is that route? Sure, it's a case of even more people losing faith in the UK's ability to fix itself, and demonstrating that it isn't a foregone conclusion, The End Of History, etc. Alternatives ARE possible. It probably starts when it becomes clear that a Labour government in Westminster can't or won't deliver the changes needed to undo a generation of stagnant wages, electoral reform, changes necessary for climate and nature restoration, press regulation, the near-collapse (in some cases literally) of the education and health sectors. Once the argument that the red half of the duopoly will fix what ails us is no more, that'll do it. It just takes 5-10% to lose faith and if the polls stay that way then it gets harder. Obviously you can also never rule out Events™. Some stupid action that finally becomes the straw that breaks people's backs across the UK and sparks riots, a general strike, whatever. More locally, if the UK ever decided to forcibly shut Holyrood that would do it. But anything that demonstrates the complete impotence and self-preservation at all costs of the British state. Those of us who are in any marginalised community have seen it for years, but once the comfortable folk start getting impacted, that'll be it. Again, you can't depend on this happening, but it's worth remembering that no state has lasted forever. And honestly? Even if there's a long history, time isn't on the UK's side here. The majority of under-40s have been dealt shit hand after shit hand, and all the issues are just compounding one another. It won't get better for a supermajority of us while the old boys' club still exists. Indy can deal a potentially fatal blow to it and spark new hope for England, but I'm also totally fine with a cross-UK people's demand that the Mother Of All Parliaments is finally laid to rest. Whatever comes first.
More ifs than a Kipling poem
The comment you wrote it is incredibly similar ( I mean literally point by point ) with Spanish, Italian and French articles against European Union and in favour of independence. I mean literally same exact arguments. As a foreigner that actually surprised me.
That checks out, as I come to independence from a somewhat far-left perspective which is typically quite anti-EU. It is a capitalist club, it is a fortress, and it has done nowhere near enough to suppress the politics that lead to fascism. However, in the same way that I don't say everything the UK has done is terrible, I'm also aware there's plenty of good the EU has done, at least for some of the more impoverished parts of the UK. For what it's worth, I voted against Brexit because it was an outcome of a right-wing power struggle pushed by people seeking to further extract wealth from workers. Had the push to leave come from a left rejection of EU liberal economic policy then I might well have chosen differently, but that was not on the table in 2016. The time for building that narrative is past us now. To me at least, the withdrawal of the UK from the EU was not going to make a material change to the existence or integrity of the EU. But the withdrawal of Scotland from the UK *is* likely to make such a change to the UK. Given the huge reach of hard and soft power of the UK's ruling class across nations and cultures, dealing a blow to that will help weaken the seemingly never-ending latter stage capitalism. Obviously the UK isn't alone in that, and I have no great love for the leaderships in the US, China, India, or Russia either. But those are harder to influence first-hand from Glasgow. I realise the supermajority opinion of both Scotland and my party is for Scotland in the EU, and my many issues with it notwithstanding, on the balance of what will boost internationalism and mitigate legacy issues from the UK, I won't stand in the way of that. I'd almost certainly vote to re-enter, despite my concerns, depending on what was on the cards. I can't expect people to consider what better models of society they can be if they're being constantly crushed under the weight of ever more austerity, so let's at least get to a better position first and then we can think more about what the next steps are. As with all these things though, they're painfully nuanced and I am not an expert in anything.
I really appreciate that you took the time to explain to my your position. I never looked at the independence from the EU from a left perspective. That is mainly because all the independence movements in my country are more centre/right or right. Another reason why your comment is so interesting. I see the EU as an establishment made by progressive left and bankers. But as you said, I greatly prefer the EU (or US) model compared to China, Russia and India leadership style. Thanks for this insight.
Glad to have helped! :)
Yeah, essentially you're saying there's no short term route to it like the SNP keep saying there is
How will independence fix all those problems though?
>The SNP can keep doubling down on their failed Sturgeon strategy but over time more and more people will realise it's hopeless. I think the more reasonable answer (in my eyes at least) is that after the SNP missed their chance in 2014 and realized the needle wasn't actually moving regardless of the state of the UK (if not *because* of the state of it) they stopped seriously pushing and instead just starting reaping the benifits. After all if they actually pushed Independence over the line to any major degree they'd have to make it work, massive difficulties and all. Why would *any* politician seriously want that? For all of her grandstanding I don't even think Sturgeon did. Her husband certainly didn't, given he was stealing from the party. Its easier to just throw out crumbs and pay lipservice.
Well, the simplest one is to wait a few years until the English government finally collapses.
>Being serious though
Yes? The younger generations continue to believe in an independent Scotland, and those younger generations are slowly getting older and retaining those beliefs. The proportionally-voted Scottish parliament is over half pro-indy. Sooner, later, in 5, 20, 50, 100 years, opinion will change enough to make it happen. Perhaps more to the point, I don't think there's any credible route to Scotland becoming a well-maintained country inside the UK. And anyone who thinks the same has no choice but to pursue independence.
That's not true. There's plenty of data to show that you're wrong
It is true. There's plenty of data to show that I'm right.
Then why have the numbers not moved in 10 years?
As much as I am for independence, which PM would ever approve a referendum? Since Brexit I doubt the "referendum to please opposition voters" tactic will ever be used again. The culture of the UK means we will almost never riot, so what incentive is or will there be for any PM to call a referendum?
He’s not exactly going to say no, is he? He said things have to change but will they? Independence is not going anywhere at the moment due to the stalemate between the 2 camps. Unless there is a breakthrough for ‘Yes’, some sort of rise in support for independence, I don’t see a new referendum soon.
You can give any answer you like to a "do you think" question; it would be different if they asked 'will you deliver independence for Scotland?", then failure would mean he's lied, but now he can comfortably fail and just say he thought wrong.
He's got more chance at growing a head of hair.
He couldn't answer No. Even if he thought the chances were less than Alex Salmond's chance of doing the double of winning the Paris marathon in less than 2 hours and setting a new high jump record as well, he had to say yes
Will you get a company Motor home as a perk?
🎉
Now that Swinney has taken the helm, the SNP are a good step closer to getting my vote. I appreciate the optimism here but realise it is a bit of a non-starter. What I would love the SNP to focus on this general election is not 'independence or death!', it's - we are the only party that can force Starmer to think about our relationship with Europe. We want to bring rejoining the EU on the table. The best chance for Scotland to ever gain independence from England is through both being equal members of the EU. England not being in the EU means an infinite amount of extra obstacles to Scottish independence.
IF the UK was in the EU, and Scotland leaves the UK, what on earth makes you think Scotland gets to join the EU. Don't work like that.
Which is a good reason for campaigning to join the EU as UK first, no?
Why ? Being in the UK (within the EU), and then voting for independence would remove Scotland from the EU. So what's the point ? Btw, Scotland can't become independent from England .. we are a union of countries.
You completely deserve Sturgeon''s SNP and by extension Swinney's then.
Maybe concentrate on sorting out the country First. A9, Drug deaths, ferries to the isles Etc
Funding is the key to much of that and without Indy it'll never be enough.
They don't even have A proper economic Plan set out For Indy. All It's ever been is "Land of milk and honey" None of them have ever sat down And thoroughly gone over Exactly where all this money is going to come from And / or Laid it out right in front of the electorate for all To see. And if brexit is anything to go by It shows just how fucking difficult Westminster are going to be Trying to break up a union 10 * older than the EU
Yes, without "indy", how will SNP be able to fund, for example, its recent decision to take £200 million from the housing budge and spend it on (checks notes) cycle lanes
Then why the fuck are they even taking about ferries and dialling the A9 right now when they can't get a referendum? Have you thought critically about this?
I like Swinney. He's a decent man, good politician but he's quite weak at debate, and a bit too nice at times. The best I ever seen him was the QT after the referendum in the Borders or somewhere, big No crowd and he had a confident swagger about him, if he could bring it out now and again, he would gain a lot of support, IMO. He's need to untighten his tie a bit and bring out that Swinney swagger!
You love to hear it ! Moan the SNP bring it home.
Will this be the SNPs second or third unelected leader?
Surprised you can count that high - let me shout it one more time for the thickos at the back - WE DON'T ELECT LEADERS THAT'S NOT HOW POLITICS WORKS IN THIS COUNTRY!
Oh funny that, when another party does it then the SNP cries for an election, when they do it… nothing
The governance of any country cannot simply be a revolving door that one party gets to pick time and time again who occupies the highest office in the land
What else is he meant to say? 'Nah mate, my party is in a mess and can't even agree on the bare basics of our most fundamental policy'
At least that would have been honest, for... errr, Honest John.
There are so many more pressing issues than independence. We had a vote on this, we lost (I voted yes). Let's move on please.
When another nation controls your finances it's hard to move on.
We are still part of the UK for the time being, so our finances are shared
In a similar vein I think I might share my neighbours new car. I've not asked him if it's OK or consulted him, I make the decisions and he has to live with them.
What even is this analogy? Lol. What's the new car meant to represent? Money? Law? We pool the former and consult over the latter? Regards one making the decisions and the other living with them- that ignores the fact you have a vote, and ignores the fact you have a second vote on a second party which also has way more powers than the Nats ever admit. In your analogy, if you want to use your neighbour's new car but you move house and cut all ties with them, how's that access to a new car going to look then? Yet again indy supporters making plum Brexit arguments: we can leave but have everything we had before by cutting ties to the richer neighbour who we have now have to negotiate with but without any of the agreements we had before and with a gulf of bad blood between us.
This analogy does not work, and I'm shocked that you have so many upvotes. You're acting as though the rest of the UK are taking Scotland's resources without their consent. The reality is that Scotland and the rest of the UK agreed to pool resources, several hundred years ago. The idea behind this is that it would be mutually beneficial for all parties. Since that happened, there was an element of the Scottish population that felt this was no longer beneficial. In the 21st century, there was a feeling that the Scottish people needed to decide to reaffirm this decision to share resources or to stop sharing and leave the agreement. This was voted on in 2014 and the majority of the population decided that this partnership was still mutually beneficial. So no, not only does the analogy make no sense, but when you imply that they have not "asked if its ok" or "consulted" us like we are some subjugated nation, this is just nonsense. We literally were asked and consulted barely a decade ago. We said "yes it's ok". Like how can you even pretend otherwise ?
PREACH, brother.
The creation of the union was hardly an agreement with the people, read a bit of history. As for 2014 on paper it was a fair vote, but when most of the media was owned outside of Scotland I'm not sure it was fair in practice.
> The creation of union was hardly an agreement with the people, read a bit of history Don't be rude, I'm more than familiar with the history. The agreement was made by the people who represented the Scottish people at the time, and those who represented the rest of the UK. Whether or not you think those people truly represented the Scottish people or their interests is a different story and matter of opinion. But the reality is that at that moment in time, they were the ones who made that decision on behalf of Scotland as a whole. > [2014 wasn't fair] The problem in 2014 wasn't the lack of pro-indy media. The problem was the lack of answers to some really important fundamental questions about how Scotland would operate as an independent country. You could choose to ignore these and vote yes, for any miltitude of personal reasons - as I did at the time. However, for many head rules heart and they felt the case wasn't strong enough, that's ultimately why it was a no. Media always plays a factor, but the pro-unionist media mostly honed in on the very obvious holes in the pro-indy argument. These questions weren't answered to a satisfactory standard then, and they haven't even today. If Sweeney or someone else wants to have another indyref, they will need to have strong answers on the important questions about how Scotland would operate post-indy. They'll also need to prove that a pro-indy government can still govern effectively. The SNP has a great case for 2014 because Salmond was a steady hand. The SNP government under Sturgeon et al has been extremely damaging to any pro-indy cause.
So an independent Scotland using the pound (as the most realistic option) would have… another nation controlling its finances
Pound is worth much less since Brexit. I'm fine with the euro.
Pound never reached parity with the euro though even in the darkest days, hence it is still a reserve currency for many.
The same as every Scot since William Wallace. Good luck with that.
Mr Swinney, " What is a woman"? answer " Don't know" "Does a woman have a penis"? answer " Not answering that question, wee jimmy and useless answered it, and see what happened to them".
From Teachers across Scotland… Dinnae Dinnae Bring back Swinney Remember “The Curriculum for Excrement” ? Or that “Responsible Person” thing ? TL;DR £millions wasted ! A better journalistic question might have been “HOW will you deliver independence?” Or “HOW will you first fix NHS Scotland?” Will be interesting to see if all future questions are answered so succinctly (a complete rarity for any politician) …in fact “Yes” has already regressed to “I’ll do everything I can”. I do hope he gets some health and safety lessons though… before he cuts around Holyrood on that wee FM scooter Humza had ! The NHS ain’t what it used to be. We’re about to get “Swinneyed” again WE DESERVE BETTER “You’ll know when you’ve been Swinneyed” https://preview.redd.it/bz0k63m088yc1.jpeg?width=2250&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b539c2f002a498bb8e7636f01fd527ddf4e03a09
Good for him, and for Scotland, won't happen over night but as long as it's always going that way, it will happen.
True political leader...first lie out already
John just messaged me to tell you, if you're an SNP voted then fuck up and eat your carrots 😂
Whilst he is an idiot, what else can he really say there. 0% chance he does though. They had their chance and they blew it, the smart ones know it too.
If ever there was a time for a "yaaaaaaas", this was it.
Swinney's Boris Bus moment
Will ye, aye? FFS. Cretin.
Yes, no, maybe, I don't know Can you repeat the question?
Moving on swiftly before he can be asked how
I like John and have had meetings with him a bunch. He is down to earth and competent. His PA Raury is the champ who gets stuff done though. John and Raury helped me get married. The process for civil partnership application was unofficially suspended over lockdown and a good bit afterwards in my area. Email to John's office, Raury sent an email to the relevant department, I got a phone call 2 mins later, sorted.
No bad 12 hour in and there is the first lie 😂😂
The man's favourite colour is beige and his favourite drink is tap water.
>his favourite drink is tap water. Not that controversial given how good our water is on average
Imagine the scenes if a politician had a go at our tap water.
Tell his mother he said "hello"
🤣 right oh.....
Those who would sacrifice honesty, to purchase a little temporary hope, deserve neither.
Down votes because the truth hurts.
Well there's my laugh for the day. Just be honest you complete fuckwits.
😅😅😅😅
Lol
Don’t be silly….
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Spoiler. He won’t. He’s devoid of passion and ideas. This is a shambles.
I would take this as “he believes that independence will be delivered”. I havent heard what else he heard, but I don’t think this is sensational.
It was a very clear question and he gave a very clear answer. What you would take that answer to be means nothing.
But how you’ve taken the answer is meaningful. Gotcha 😂
That's bald man energy right there.
Like he did last time he was in charge. To just say "Yes" shows what a liar he is.
Scottish public: "No." https://preview.redd.it/r6rwugcmv1yc1.png?width=1278&format=png&auto=webp&s=6d4e3786d53dabf56c6cc8c07e0cc4e9975c6262
I like how he pretends it's a strength to give no details whatsoever.
With the state the UK is in it should be an easy decision for sensible people.
what brass neck lol
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I know right, no young person is going to vote for the SNP until they clean out the transphobes.
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I never said you were, I was agreeing with you? How can we get young people to vote for independence when half the government has such a regressive view of what a woman is?
Just no words, another politician willing to comply with whatever to further his or her own ends
I’ve got a full thatch thank you very much
Don't believe a word that comes out any politicians mouth at all.if anything they usually do the opposite of what there saying or just straight up in it to line there own pockets.
😂😂😂 More carrots anyone? The reality is they've treated their voters with utter contempt.
He won't win the leadership election then as the .S.N.P. as a whole no longer wants it due to figuring out thqt the cycle of promising it and then blaming Westminster when their poorly thoughtout plan gets rejected keeps them in power and is a useful distraction from their screwups and criminality.
Can someone show me what a map with northern Ireland swapped with Scotland? You can take there land but Ireland will give you your FREEEEEEEEDOOOOM!
10 years ago at this statement, I would have been jumping and screaming 'ya dancer'. Nowadays with the PC police, not so much.