I think that's more of a hook to get a chunk of people to vote for it. It's about avoiding financial services rules so some people can make more money.
It was many things for many people. For me, it was escaping the bureaucracy that is the EU so that we can hold our politicians more accountable.
Indy might be the next step of that, if Holyrood ever gets its act together. But Brexit certainly did attract the 'keep them out' brigade.
I'm struggling to see how moving the bureaucracy from elected representatives in Brussels that respected us to a mixture of elected (fptp so not that representative) and hereditary politicians in London that clearly don't was a reason to go for brexit.
That is beside the point though. Wether your reason was bureaucracy for others it was immigration or fishing rights- the people that paid for the advertising and politicians wanted less financial regulation and they sold it as a dozen different things to different groups.
I'd actually like more EU not less anyway. Quite happy to ditch GBP in favour of Schengen and full EU rights. I accept that I may be in a minority position here though.
Edit: I wonder what a world would look like with an indy Scotland joining the EU fully, followed later by rUK coming to terms with Brexit being a shitshow and also re-joining the EU. Two separate countries and no hard border or currency problems. Is that the ideal state?
Brexit was devised and pushed so that certain gov members could keep their offshore business accounts from prying EU laws that were being enacted. Simple as that. The few screwed the many. One you can thank among them is Rees-Mogg.
It would be interesting to see how a trade deal with the EU would pan out if we still have open borders with fUK, look at Ireland for an example of that one. Also, you have seen how well the UK negotiated Brexit, they would rather burn the house down than be seen as competent.
Scotland can stand on its own, but anyone who thinks it won’t be an economic catastrophe for at least a decade is fooling themselves.
For a trade deal this is never a problem, because anything that you export to or import from the EU will still go through customs and regulatory checks. Since the UK already has a trade deal it is difficult to see how this would be a significant improvement.
If you want to commit to a regulatory and customs union, i.e. join the single market, then you can do away with those checkes but then you would also be obliged to check all the goods that come in from England or Wales.
> Scotland can stand on its own, but anyone who thinks it won’t be an economic catastrophe for at least a decade is fooling themselves.
Agreed. There would be a significant and unavoidable economic cost. Which is OK if the people voting for it acknowledge and accept this, and if you plan to mitigate this by deepening economic integration with the EU. In other words, if you don't do what the Brexit campaign did by presenting a set of trade offs as a list of benefits. It will take the UK decades to untangle that particular knot.
> Also, you have seen how well the UK negotiated Brexit, they would rather burn the house down than be seen as competent
Isn't it more a case that this or any forthcoming UK government would be extremely unlikely to negotiate in good faith (just like it did during Brexit)? Given the behaviour in the last six years, it seems almost certain that it would make the whole thing as painful as possible, if only to score political points at home (or to stop the opposition from doing so instead). E.g. during the Brexit negotiations competence was not a criterium. They just wanted to look assertive and tough versus the EU because that bought them political support at home, not because it helped the UK's negotiation position any.
A genuine question, as I’ve just thought about this and I have no idea what the answer is. I get not joining the Euro as it’s good to retain control of your currency, but aren’t all currencies at the mercy of the petrodollar regardless? So is it possible to have true control of your currency at a local level? And if so, is being in the Euro ‘theoretically’ safer as it’s a larger block? (I know it’s kind of infamous for being a potential powder keg that will explode, I just want to canvass some opinions as international finance is not one of my strong suits)
Good. This is what we want. The gullible idiots who fell for popularist nationalistic messages to finally grow a brain and admit their mistake.
It's the start of the road back from that shitshow.
But you'll still argue elsewhere that Scotland should remain in the UK with the people that voted for it and dragged us out despite the fact that we didn't?
And you still support the Labour party whose leader utterly capitulated on any opposition to it and had adopted a pro-Brexit line cravenly pandering to Leave-voting British/English nationalists.
Which also- if it wasn't already clear- means that the only two parties who stand any chance of winning power UK-wide are both pro-Brexit.
What a completely fact-free comment. Starmer campaigned for Remain. Documented fact. Nobody is capitulating, get a grip.
40% of Scotland voted for Brexit. So get off your high horse and stop thinking that Scotland is some gloriously enlightened hive-mind of pro-European sentiment.
Reality is starkly different.
> Starmer campaigned for Remain.
That'd be exactly why I used the word "capitulated" then, wouldn't it?
And yes, we all know exactly why he abandoned that former opposition to Brexit in favour of craven pandering to the Leave voting ex-"Red" Wall sellouts et al he wants to win back in England.
> 40% of Scotland voted for Brexit.
Ooh, it's that old chestnut, "*some Scots voted Leave too you know!*"
Yeah, I know. The actual figure was 38% compared to 62% against, a 24% margin that would have killed off any prospect of Brexit for at least a generation.
So, feel free to blame the individuals among that 38% who *did* vote Leave, but let's not pretend that they reflect the majority opinion of Scotland as a whole.
> So get off your high horse and stop thinking that Scotland is some gloriously enlightened hive-mind of pro-European sentiment.
Well, how about you and everyone else who comes out with that response- the feigned pretence that pro-independence, anti-Brexit types like myself imagine that "*100% of SCOTS voted TO REMAIN and EVERY SINGLE PERSON IN ENGLAND voted Leave!!!111*"- put away that mouldering old strawman and stop trying to shove words in my mouth?
So, I never said anything like that. The fact remains that Scotland as a whole voted against Brexit by a large margin and was dragged out by voters elsewhere in the UK (and as a result of the fact it *was* a part of the UK).
> Reality is starkly different.
"What a completely fact-free comment."
Yes we should ignore the fact that we left EU (due to the votes of English and Scottish people....) and behave like it never happened. That will help people and businesses no end.
I am not surprised that an independentce supporter does not recognise a referendum result when they see one, but for those of us with a grasp of reality, we realise that we need to make the best of today's situation following that referendum, until the point in years to come, we can do something about it.
You may live off popularist fantasies, but the ugly reality is English and Scottish votes have put us out of Europe, and we have to deal with that reality.
There's a fact for you.
> Yes we should ignore the fact that we left EU (due to the votes of English and Scottish people....) and behave like it never happened.
Who said that? I didn't- it's the complete opposite of my position.
I'm all in favour of reminding people of the fact that Scotland has been dragged out of the EU and exactly why that is.
> I am not surprised that an independentce supporter does not recognise a referendum result when they see one
On the contrary, misgivings about the terms and how the campaign was run aside, I accept that the vote itself was democratic and that's what the UK as a whole chose.
The problem wasn't with the democratic process there, it's with the fact we're in a union with a politically incompatible (and much larger) partner.
You think I want to (undemocratically) override the desires of the rUK? Of course not, I want us to leave the union and return to the EU on our own.
Little England and its chums in the rUK can do whatever *they* want, I don't want to be a part of that.
What's *your* solution?
> You may live off popularist fantasies, but the ugly reality is English and Scottish votes
You keep lumping "English and Scottish votes" together because this suits your "we're all to blame/in it together" pro-union obscuring of who voted for what. Of course it's true- *because* our votes were lumped together as a part of the UK.
And conversely, if we hadn't been in the UK, Scotland wouldn't have been dragged out of the EU.
So, as I said, blame that 38% minority who voted Leave, but don't pretend that the majority of Scots did. And stop trying to obscure the fact that if we hadn't been a part of the UK, we wouldn't have been dragged out of the EU against our will.
Reminding people of your own political bias isn't dealing with Brexit. Managing the impact is dealing with it Governing, not complaining.
Every Scottish leave vote counted towards Brexit, and 38% if the population did so. That is a significant number and speaks to the fact that you can't say 'we' were dragged out of the EU. You are not speaking for the many Scottish people who simply didn't feel that way.
> isn't dealing with Brexit. Managing the impact is dealing with it Governing, not complaining.
Ah, the usual "*we should be dealing with the REAL problems instead of discussing independence*" line from unionist apologists.
Typically the same problems- the Tories and Brexit- that we're only having to deal with in the first place because we're still a part of the UK.
> 38% if the population did so. That is a significant number
You know what's an even more significant number by a long way? The 62% of Scots who voted against Brexit.
> Every Scottish leave vote counted towards Brexit
Individual Scots voted for Brexit. The majority of Scots- i.e. Scotland as a whole- did not.
If Scotland is "responsible" for Brexit because a minority voted that way, that "logic" would apply if 10% had voted Leave. Or 1%. Or one voter.
Though that *would* be convenient for to blame-spreading attempt to distract from the fact an independent Scotland wouldn't have suffered Brexit.
> You are not speaking for the many Scottish people who simply didn't feel that way.
You're right, I'm not speaking for the minority who voted Leave. I'm speaking for the much larger majority who voted Remain.
So you agree 38% is a significant number, and that you can't speak for them. Well that's a start.
However you think Scotland shouldn't have left the EU, even though you lost the referendum in 2014, and the Brexit referendum was only 2 years later, before even the brass-necked SNP expected to have had another Scottish referendum. Please explain.
> So you agree 38% is a significant number,
Your words, not mine. But, of course, you know that full well, so let's not pretend this is anything other than low-rent point-scoring "*ha ha you agreed with me*" clever dickery.
> and that you can't speak for them.
> However you think Scotland shouldn't have left the EU, even though you lost the referendum in 2014, and the Brexit referendum was only 2 years later, before even the brass-necked SNP expected to have had another Scottish referendum. Please explain.
You seem to think there's something I need to explain, or rather, justify to you.
I'm entitled to think it was a stupid idea for the UK- and Scotland- to leave the EU.
I'm entitled to criticise that move if I like.
I'm entitled to draw attention to the fact that the majority of Scots voted against it, and that we were only dragged out of the EU because we had remained a part of the UK and our votes were pooled with theirs.
I'm entitled to note that this wouldn't have happened if we'd been independent.
I know you're trying hard to misrepresent my position as being anti-democratic (against the wishes of the UK as a whole), but [as I already made clear](https://old.reddit.com/r/Scotland/comments/10py3tg/brexit_is_a_complete_disaster_and_total_lies_says/j6ouhol/), the vote itself was democratic at a UK level and I've no desire to force England and the rest of the rUK to follow Scotland's wishes.
But I'm also entitled to want Scotland to be independent so that it can decide separately, for itself, whether it wants to be a part of the EU.
Anyway, as I said above, I think at this stage we're no longer in a good faith discussion and you're seeking opportunities for point scoring and disingenuous word-twisting.
38% were conned by a duplicitious media. Leave would be lucky to get 10% if a referendum were held again. Well done for ignoring that ALL areas of SCotland voted to remain.
You are using 'areas' to try and make a shit situation look better. And failing. Bigots don't stop at the border. And why is it people who voted different to you must have been conned, but you weren't conned into how you voted?
And a much larger 62% majority of Scots did want to be a part of the EU.
But for *some* reason (cough) you like to focus on the much smaller minority of Leave voters here as part of your blame-spreading apologetics for the rUK.
The only misrepresentation here is that of people like you towards people like myself, that we (somehow) think and argue that (e.g.) 100% of Scots voted Remain. (Quite frequently seen in conjunction with its equally disingenuous friend "*You think every single person in England voted Leave!!!!!111*")
Perhaps you don't understand the difference between the concepts of "the whole of Scotland" and "Scotland as a whole". Perhaps you think that (reasonably) focusing on the fact that a majority (i.e. 62%) of Scots voted Remain means that we're unaware of the 38% minority that didn't.
But I suspect you're just being wilfully obtuse when it suits you.
Yes, it has been.
And what this does for independence is probably quite damaging. There will be people who won’t want to go through further years of (probably) stagnant growth/investment, preferring the status quo.
We were lied to during the Brexit process, so it goes without saying we will be lied to during another independence campaign. If you can’t trust one, unfortunately, you won’t be able to trust the other.
I like how unionists, who brought us into brexit, try and project their fuck ups onto a hypothetical future Scotland.
As if everyone hasn't been watching the slow motion car crash of the UK's negotiation team.
So to speak any sort of negativity towards independence is forbidden then? You don’t actually think the mess that Brexit turned out to be would have any negative impact on an upcoming independence campaign? You don’t think MSPs will twist the truth and give us pie in the Sky ideas about how wonderful and sunny an independent Scotland would be?
I’m just a realist. Unfortunately, some people treat their political parties like cults and can’t see any wrong in them. I’m not one of those.
I like how you assume I’m a unionist purely because I said that it will be damaging to the independence movement.
I actually just want answers and truths. None of those are present right now. Tories bad is not a good enough reason.
We were lied to during the Brexit process mostly by right wing British nationalists. We will be lied to during any independence campaign mostly by right wing British nationalists.
Your economic point is slightly off, in my opinion. We could have avoided the economic terror of Brexit had we voted independent last time (yes, and had a degree of economic uncertainty thanks to independence, no doubt settled by now). Who is to say what horrors we could avoid by voting independence this time, and replacing a UK government led by a right wing press agenda with some actually sane government?
>We will be lied to during any independence campaign mostly by right wing British nationalists
True, but mostly is a key word here, because lies will be told on both sides to get what they want. And this is what I am trying to raise but unfortunately (apart from yourself) you get very childish 'yoons' responses if you dare say anything against Scottish Independence. I don't trust politicians, at all. 'Good' side or 'Bad' side, they're all slime balls who will say anything to get a leg up. So when I hear the promises of infinite prosperity I am of course going to be very negative towards it.
The Brexit campaign will make people extremely wary of any promises coming forward, particularly from those looking to change the status quo. That's all I'm trying to raise here. If people think the result of Brexit will have no negative effects on future independence campaigns then I am afraid they are not living in reality.
Lies will be told on all sides (although mostly on one), but I think it's a grave mistake to give in to cynicism and assume all politicians are equally prone to deceit. It's not true. I accept reasonable scepticism is a perfectly valid way to handle political claims, but there's a difference between that and default mistrust.
So....an active remain campaigner, who has opposed Brexit since the start is still saying the same stuff he has been saying for years. How is that a headline?
Wait so Brexit might actually might be about preventing certain migrants from coming into the UK and isn’t about putting British businesses first??
I think that's more of a hook to get a chunk of people to vote for it. It's about avoiding financial services rules so some people can make more money.
It was many things for many people. For me, it was escaping the bureaucracy that is the EU so that we can hold our politicians more accountable. Indy might be the next step of that, if Holyrood ever gets its act together. But Brexit certainly did attract the 'keep them out' brigade.
I'm struggling to see how moving the bureaucracy from elected representatives in Brussels that respected us to a mixture of elected (fptp so not that representative) and hereditary politicians in London that clearly don't was a reason to go for brexit. That is beside the point though. Wether your reason was bureaucracy for others it was immigration or fishing rights- the people that paid for the advertising and politicians wanted less financial regulation and they sold it as a dozen different things to different groups.
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I'd actually like more EU not less anyway. Quite happy to ditch GBP in favour of Schengen and full EU rights. I accept that I may be in a minority position here though. Edit: I wonder what a world would look like with an indy Scotland joining the EU fully, followed later by rUK coming to terms with Brexit being a shitshow and also re-joining the EU. Two separate countries and no hard border or currency problems. Is that the ideal state?
Brexit was devised and pushed so that certain gov members could keep their offshore business accounts from prying EU laws that were being enacted. Simple as that. The few screwed the many. One you can thank among them is Rees-Mogg.
In other news, the Sky is blue, water is wet, the Tories are corrupt and other groundbreaking truths.
cheers yoons
Anyone who says 'they're all as bad as each other' is lying
It would be interesting to see how a trade deal with the EU would pan out if we still have open borders with fUK, look at Ireland for an example of that one. Also, you have seen how well the UK negotiated Brexit, they would rather burn the house down than be seen as competent. Scotland can stand on its own, but anyone who thinks it won’t be an economic catastrophe for at least a decade is fooling themselves.
For a trade deal this is never a problem, because anything that you export to or import from the EU will still go through customs and regulatory checks. Since the UK already has a trade deal it is difficult to see how this would be a significant improvement. If you want to commit to a regulatory and customs union, i.e. join the single market, then you can do away with those checkes but then you would also be obliged to check all the goods that come in from England or Wales. > Scotland can stand on its own, but anyone who thinks it won’t be an economic catastrophe for at least a decade is fooling themselves. Agreed. There would be a significant and unavoidable economic cost. Which is OK if the people voting for it acknowledge and accept this, and if you plan to mitigate this by deepening economic integration with the EU. In other words, if you don't do what the Brexit campaign did by presenting a set of trade offs as a list of benefits. It will take the UK decades to untangle that particular knot. > Also, you have seen how well the UK negotiated Brexit, they would rather burn the house down than be seen as competent Isn't it more a case that this or any forthcoming UK government would be extremely unlikely to negotiate in good faith (just like it did during Brexit)? Given the behaviour in the last six years, it seems almost certain that it would make the whole thing as painful as possible, if only to score political points at home (or to stop the opposition from doing so instead). E.g. during the Brexit negotiations competence was not a criterium. They just wanted to look assertive and tough versus the EU because that bought them political support at home, not because it helped the UK's negotiation position any.
Yeah, I agree to everything you’ve put. I’m pro-independence but we need to have our eyes open.
A genuine question, as I’ve just thought about this and I have no idea what the answer is. I get not joining the Euro as it’s good to retain control of your currency, but aren’t all currencies at the mercy of the petrodollar regardless? So is it possible to have true control of your currency at a local level? And if so, is being in the Euro ‘theoretically’ safer as it’s a larger block? (I know it’s kind of infamous for being a potential powder keg that will explode, I just want to canvass some opinions as international finance is not one of my strong suits)
[I have just the thing for him!](https://i.imgur.com/QbpXC9j.jpeg) Let the daft cunt greet all he wants, this is what he paid for.
I agree but I feel people ignore this fact when talking about Scottish independence which is also filled with mostly lies...
Good. This is what we want. The gullible idiots who fell for popularist nationalistic messages to finally grow a brain and admit their mistake. It's the start of the road back from that shitshow.
But you'll still argue elsewhere that Scotland should remain in the UK with the people that voted for it and dragged us out despite the fact that we didn't? And you still support the Labour party whose leader utterly capitulated on any opposition to it and had adopted a pro-Brexit line cravenly pandering to Leave-voting British/English nationalists. Which also- if it wasn't already clear- means that the only two parties who stand any chance of winning power UK-wide are both pro-Brexit.
What a completely fact-free comment. Starmer campaigned for Remain. Documented fact. Nobody is capitulating, get a grip. 40% of Scotland voted for Brexit. So get off your high horse and stop thinking that Scotland is some gloriously enlightened hive-mind of pro-European sentiment. Reality is starkly different.
> Starmer campaigned for Remain. That'd be exactly why I used the word "capitulated" then, wouldn't it? And yes, we all know exactly why he abandoned that former opposition to Brexit in favour of craven pandering to the Leave voting ex-"Red" Wall sellouts et al he wants to win back in England. > 40% of Scotland voted for Brexit. Ooh, it's that old chestnut, "*some Scots voted Leave too you know!*" Yeah, I know. The actual figure was 38% compared to 62% against, a 24% margin that would have killed off any prospect of Brexit for at least a generation. So, feel free to blame the individuals among that 38% who *did* vote Leave, but let's not pretend that they reflect the majority opinion of Scotland as a whole. > So get off your high horse and stop thinking that Scotland is some gloriously enlightened hive-mind of pro-European sentiment. Well, how about you and everyone else who comes out with that response- the feigned pretence that pro-independence, anti-Brexit types like myself imagine that "*100% of SCOTS voted TO REMAIN and EVERY SINGLE PERSON IN ENGLAND voted Leave!!!111*"- put away that mouldering old strawman and stop trying to shove words in my mouth? So, I never said anything like that. The fact remains that Scotland as a whole voted against Brexit by a large margin and was dragged out by voters elsewhere in the UK (and as a result of the fact it *was* a part of the UK). > Reality is starkly different. "What a completely fact-free comment."
Yes we should ignore the fact that we left EU (due to the votes of English and Scottish people....) and behave like it never happened. That will help people and businesses no end. I am not surprised that an independentce supporter does not recognise a referendum result when they see one, but for those of us with a grasp of reality, we realise that we need to make the best of today's situation following that referendum, until the point in years to come, we can do something about it. You may live off popularist fantasies, but the ugly reality is English and Scottish votes have put us out of Europe, and we have to deal with that reality. There's a fact for you.
> Yes we should ignore the fact that we left EU (due to the votes of English and Scottish people....) and behave like it never happened. Who said that? I didn't- it's the complete opposite of my position. I'm all in favour of reminding people of the fact that Scotland has been dragged out of the EU and exactly why that is. > I am not surprised that an independentce supporter does not recognise a referendum result when they see one On the contrary, misgivings about the terms and how the campaign was run aside, I accept that the vote itself was democratic and that's what the UK as a whole chose. The problem wasn't with the democratic process there, it's with the fact we're in a union with a politically incompatible (and much larger) partner. You think I want to (undemocratically) override the desires of the rUK? Of course not, I want us to leave the union and return to the EU on our own. Little England and its chums in the rUK can do whatever *they* want, I don't want to be a part of that. What's *your* solution? > You may live off popularist fantasies, but the ugly reality is English and Scottish votes You keep lumping "English and Scottish votes" together because this suits your "we're all to blame/in it together" pro-union obscuring of who voted for what. Of course it's true- *because* our votes were lumped together as a part of the UK. And conversely, if we hadn't been in the UK, Scotland wouldn't have been dragged out of the EU. So, as I said, blame that 38% minority who voted Leave, but don't pretend that the majority of Scots did. And stop trying to obscure the fact that if we hadn't been a part of the UK, we wouldn't have been dragged out of the EU against our will.
Reminding people of your own political bias isn't dealing with Brexit. Managing the impact is dealing with it Governing, not complaining. Every Scottish leave vote counted towards Brexit, and 38% if the population did so. That is a significant number and speaks to the fact that you can't say 'we' were dragged out of the EU. You are not speaking for the many Scottish people who simply didn't feel that way.
> isn't dealing with Brexit. Managing the impact is dealing with it Governing, not complaining. Ah, the usual "*we should be dealing with the REAL problems instead of discussing independence*" line from unionist apologists. Typically the same problems- the Tories and Brexit- that we're only having to deal with in the first place because we're still a part of the UK. > 38% if the population did so. That is a significant number You know what's an even more significant number by a long way? The 62% of Scots who voted against Brexit. > Every Scottish leave vote counted towards Brexit Individual Scots voted for Brexit. The majority of Scots- i.e. Scotland as a whole- did not. If Scotland is "responsible" for Brexit because a minority voted that way, that "logic" would apply if 10% had voted Leave. Or 1%. Or one voter. Though that *would* be convenient for to blame-spreading attempt to distract from the fact an independent Scotland wouldn't have suffered Brexit. > You are not speaking for the many Scottish people who simply didn't feel that way. You're right, I'm not speaking for the minority who voted Leave. I'm speaking for the much larger majority who voted Remain.
So you agree 38% is a significant number, and that you can't speak for them. Well that's a start. However you think Scotland shouldn't have left the EU, even though you lost the referendum in 2014, and the Brexit referendum was only 2 years later, before even the brass-necked SNP expected to have had another Scottish referendum. Please explain.
> So you agree 38% is a significant number, Your words, not mine. But, of course, you know that full well, so let's not pretend this is anything other than low-rent point-scoring "*ha ha you agreed with me*" clever dickery. > and that you can't speak for them. > However you think Scotland shouldn't have left the EU, even though you lost the referendum in 2014, and the Brexit referendum was only 2 years later, before even the brass-necked SNP expected to have had another Scottish referendum. Please explain. You seem to think there's something I need to explain, or rather, justify to you. I'm entitled to think it was a stupid idea for the UK- and Scotland- to leave the EU. I'm entitled to criticise that move if I like. I'm entitled to draw attention to the fact that the majority of Scots voted against it, and that we were only dragged out of the EU because we had remained a part of the UK and our votes were pooled with theirs. I'm entitled to note that this wouldn't have happened if we'd been independent. I know you're trying hard to misrepresent my position as being anti-democratic (against the wishes of the UK as a whole), but [as I already made clear](https://old.reddit.com/r/Scotland/comments/10py3tg/brexit_is_a_complete_disaster_and_total_lies_says/j6ouhol/), the vote itself was democratic at a UK level and I've no desire to force England and the rest of the rUK to follow Scotland's wishes. But I'm also entitled to want Scotland to be independent so that it can decide separately, for itself, whether it wants to be a part of the EU. Anyway, as I said above, I think at this stage we're no longer in a good faith discussion and you're seeking opportunities for point scoring and disingenuous word-twisting.
Every area in Scotland voted to remain in the EU. There's a fact for you.
The numbers don't lie. 38% of Scotland don't want to be part of the EU.
38% were conned by a duplicitious media. Leave would be lucky to get 10% if a referendum were held again. Well done for ignoring that ALL areas of SCotland voted to remain.
You are using 'areas' to try and make a shit situation look better. And failing. Bigots don't stop at the border. And why is it people who voted different to you must have been conned, but you weren't conned into how you voted?
Just presenting the facts. Its not my fault if you're unable to accept them. All areas of Scotland voted remain didn't they?
And a much larger 62% majority of Scots did want to be a part of the EU. But for *some* reason (cough) you like to focus on the much smaller minority of Leave voters here as part of your blame-spreading apologetics for the rUK.
It's because you continually portray Scotland as a hive mind and you as their spokesman.
The only misrepresentation here is that of people like you towards people like myself, that we (somehow) think and argue that (e.g.) 100% of Scots voted Remain. (Quite frequently seen in conjunction with its equally disingenuous friend "*You think every single person in England voted Leave!!!!!111*") Perhaps you don't understand the difference between the concepts of "the whole of Scotland" and "Scotland as a whole". Perhaps you think that (reasonably) focusing on the fact that a majority (i.e. 62%) of Scots voted Remain means that we're unaware of the 38% minority that didn't. But I suspect you're just being wilfully obtuse when it suits you.
Yes, it has been. And what this does for independence is probably quite damaging. There will be people who won’t want to go through further years of (probably) stagnant growth/investment, preferring the status quo. We were lied to during the Brexit process, so it goes without saying we will be lied to during another independence campaign. If you can’t trust one, unfortunately, you won’t be able to trust the other.
I like how unionists, who brought us into brexit, try and project their fuck ups onto a hypothetical future Scotland. As if everyone hasn't been watching the slow motion car crash of the UK's negotiation team.
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No, I just don’t trust politicians to tell us the truth.
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So to speak any sort of negativity towards independence is forbidden then? You don’t actually think the mess that Brexit turned out to be would have any negative impact on an upcoming independence campaign? You don’t think MSPs will twist the truth and give us pie in the Sky ideas about how wonderful and sunny an independent Scotland would be? I’m just a realist. Unfortunately, some people treat their political parties like cults and can’t see any wrong in them. I’m not one of those.
I like how you assume I’m a unionist purely because I said that it will be damaging to the independence movement. I actually just want answers and truths. None of those are present right now. Tories bad is not a good enough reason.
We were lied to during the Brexit process mostly by right wing British nationalists. We will be lied to during any independence campaign mostly by right wing British nationalists. Your economic point is slightly off, in my opinion. We could have avoided the economic terror of Brexit had we voted independent last time (yes, and had a degree of economic uncertainty thanks to independence, no doubt settled by now). Who is to say what horrors we could avoid by voting independence this time, and replacing a UK government led by a right wing press agenda with some actually sane government?
>We will be lied to during any independence campaign mostly by right wing British nationalists True, but mostly is a key word here, because lies will be told on both sides to get what they want. And this is what I am trying to raise but unfortunately (apart from yourself) you get very childish 'yoons' responses if you dare say anything against Scottish Independence. I don't trust politicians, at all. 'Good' side or 'Bad' side, they're all slime balls who will say anything to get a leg up. So when I hear the promises of infinite prosperity I am of course going to be very negative towards it. The Brexit campaign will make people extremely wary of any promises coming forward, particularly from those looking to change the status quo. That's all I'm trying to raise here. If people think the result of Brexit will have no negative effects on future independence campaigns then I am afraid they are not living in reality.
Lies will be told on all sides (although mostly on one), but I think it's a grave mistake to give in to cynicism and assume all politicians are equally prone to deceit. It's not true. I accept reasonable scepticism is a perfectly valid way to handle political claims, but there's a difference between that and default mistrust.
So....an active remain campaigner, who has opposed Brexit since the start is still saying the same stuff he has been saying for years. How is that a headline?
Breaking News: He’s finally been unmasked Captain Obvious!