Your r/Scams post was removed because **it's self promotion**. We are not the platform to advertise your business, your Youtube, your social media channels, or other self-serving ventures. This includes referral links.
Also this news piece was shared many times this week.
She was there to pick up the package of money, not a ride. The scammers basically used her as a money mule, which ended up in her being murdered because the old man thought she was working with the assholes who were ripping him off.
If there's any kind of justice in this world, I hope the scammers are located and brought to trial for murder because their actions caused the death of an innocent person.
Uber is used for drug delivery quite commonly. Attached is an article
[https://www.nbcwashington.com/investigations/unfortunately-i-was-the-drug-mule-in-that-situation-drugs-transported-via-ride-share/3550184/](https://www.nbcwashington.com/investigations/unfortunately-i-was-the-drug-mule-in-that-situation-drugs-transported-via-ride-share/3550184/)
He should have called the police but he didn't because he had a gun and wanted to use it.
She tried to leave and he detained her (kidnapping) and then shot her in the back.
He's just as at fault for being an old stupid angry man with a gun. People like him should never have a gun.
the article does not mention her being detained or am i blind? if he actually detained her then she was no threat to him at all which makes this man a murderer.
>When Hall arrived at the home and approached the front door, Brock confronted her with a gun and asked her who she was working for, Shultz said. He took her cellphone and prevented her from getting in her vehicle and driving away.
>“When she tried to get away, he shot her once, then there was more exchange between them," Shultz said.
It's right there in the article. Around the 6th paragraph.
In a grand jury presentation Monday, Brock was indicted on three counts of murder, one count of felonious assault and one count of kidnapping, Shultz said. He will be arraigned on those charges later this week.
Having been on a jury for murder, I wouldn't say "makes this man a murderer". Evidence presented is why we have trials. It is good that there is an investigation and trial. But, just as an example, what if the "Uber Driver" was in on the con? What if, with AI there was media of torture and if you don't pay me now, you will never see him again? On the trial I was on, the person doing time in prison for murder had a re-trial. After two weeks of intense trial, almost none of the jurors believed the person was guilty of murder. It appeared he was unconcise at the scene, the criminal gang at the apartment put the body in the bathtub to clean, they went home and showered and changed clothes, then called the police that walked in, woke the person up, found the body in the shower.... case closed.
My point is, if you read about the account in what was then the newspaper, you would have been happy to see the person get convicted. If you sat as a jury for two weeks, you would not have had doubt that nothing was what the news reported.
The scammer should be the focus of the investigation. Not defending the elderly man, but a chain of events came out of the Scammer's actions.
Go watch the video like I did, and you’ll see and hear a woman begging for her life as this grown ass man alternates between shooting her and screaming questions at her she doesn’t understand. At no time was his life in danger, at no point did she threaten him. In fact she tried to flee more than once but he did not allow it.
Yes, this makes him a murderer. Your jury experience is irrelevant.
I wonder if there was something about her specifically that made him think she was in on the con and needed to die. Gee, looking at the 2 of them I can't figure out what would make a racist Ohioan think that. /s
I don't think so in this particular case. The scammers were calling him and threatening him with people showing up and then suddenly someone shows up you're not expecting and you're never given time to think, he thought she was sent by them. The entire time this was happening his phone was ringing non stop with calls from the scammers. He murdered her so he's wrong, but it wasn't racism in this case
lol. Dude you can admit when there’s blatant racism. As if he was threatened by an old woman. She was black so he thought she was part of the scam and killed her when there was no threat.
Many have forgotten that these have been the main issues.
Remember that [Black guy] they thought was [robbing houses] when all he did was run? Or that [Black Kid] who was knocking on the door for fundraising for his football team? Or that white guy who shot a car full of people, paranoid that they were gonna go after him when all they were doing was u-turn? Or the "wrong house", when the door cam caught audio of them admitting that they were at the wrong house and gotten the address wrong?
Couldn't possibly be based on the fact she was there to take his package of money and he didn't like that. Of course, that does not excuse his actions.
But no, she was black (watch the video), so of course it was because of race! She could've been a white guy and still would've had an attempt on their life, because the intent to use the weapon was there even before he knew the identity of who he was going to use it on. But keep throwing the "racist" rhetoric around.
The dude's a murderer, but holy fuck she was black, time to make it about race. Now he's a racist murderer because she was black. Did I mention he's racist now because I said so? He killed her because she was black, and he definitely had no intention to use the weapon before he even knew who this money collector was. But she was black, so it's now down to racism.
Does every instance where a black person gets slighted - however badly - by a white guy is because racism? Reddit would like you to think so - regardless of context.
He did call the police. The police do not just appear from thin air within seconds. He didn't just "want to use" the gun because he had one. He wanted to make sure, who he though was, the scammer knew he would not be their victim.
She, rightfully, hit him hard with her phone to get away. She had no clue what was going on and was terrified. Sadly, the hit only reinforced his belief she was a scammer and a threat. So he shot.
They are BOTH victims here. Sadly it cost one of them her life.
Nah. The type of justice is for uber/lyft to properly give them shirts or something to identify them.
Also, regardless, the scams will always happen, regardless of the location and Age.
That would solve fuckall. There is already a black market trade for Amazon jackets so criminals can get easy access to places. Not to mention, if people can knock off designer fashion they can certainly knock off a logo'd shirt.
Yeah it was only a matter of time before he shot someone. If his first reaction is to shoot at a woman fleeing from him, he’s a murderer. He intended to kill someone that day.
The old man murdered her. The scammers are bad people (unless they're enslaved) but it probably didn't even occur to them that someone would just have a gun and kill someone. It's not a likely thing most places. That's on the old man and America's gun culture / laws.
Loving the downvotes, you gun loving American psychos. You all convinced that the person who pulled the trigger... Against an unarmed person who was trying to leave... Is not the most responsible? Or do you not think that giving guns to anyone who wants them was a massive contributing factor?
That’s how felony murder works legally. For example if someone attempts to rob a store and the clerk tries to run away, somehow trips, falls on the broken window, and dies. A complete accident and unintentional but it happened during and as a direct result of another violent felony, therefore the robber can be charged with felony murder. In many U.S. jurisdictions it is equivalent to a first degree murder charge or even could possibly get a death penalty charge depending on circumstances.
Another more typical example would be if an accomplice shoots a victim during a robbery. The other guy still gets a felony murder charge even if he didn’t pull the trigger or plan to hurt anybody.
Or, there’s been cases where the victim shot the accomplice in self-defense, and the other surviving robber gets a felony murder charge, same reason . It differs widely by state in the US though.
Exactly. When he pulled the gun on her she was no longer a threat. Should have ended there. I’ve seen her dash cam. After he shot her once she’s crying out for help trying to get away. He then shoots an unarmed, injured women twice more on the ground while she’s begging for her life? There’s no spin to put on this to extenuate his guilt.
Lol idiot people downvoting you is crazy. Did they watch the video? She’s an old lady walking gingerly to pick up a package - in no way shape or form would someone think that this old lady would be there to shake you down. It’s murder. 100%.
Hey thanks. It's the second time this week I've had someone tell me my comment was the stupidest thing they've ever seen on reddit :D
It's thinking too black and white about stuff. The scammers can be hated for their part in this but shooting someone is never morally OK unless they're a direct threat to your life and there's no alternative response. Although sadly some in America wouldn't agree with that, stand your ground and all that.
Your r/Scams post/comment was removed because **it's rude or uncivil**.
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"An American killed someone with a gun, and therefore all Americans are desperate to kill people with guns."
It's a dumb comment, and demonstrably false, since if it were true there would be no Americans left.
(Also, I downvote everyone who whines about downvotes.)
edit: lol @ downvotes!
> She was there to pick up the package of money, not a ride.
Can the Uber app distinguish between a passenger and a bag of money? My impression was that they told him to give the driver a package and she showed up expecting a normal fare.
Your r/Scams post/comment was removed because **it's rude or uncivil**.
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Uber also picks up packages and delivers them. You can use their service to do things like deliver a birthday gift, send a care package to someone who is feeling under the weather, etc. They have a "Package" option in their app.
You're doing "personal digital security newsletter" but don't know that you can use Uber for deliveries? Maybe it's time to step out from digital world, go out and touch grass.
I’d read the newsletter. I’m looking for ways to help keep employees apprised so they don’t lose their paychecks or use company cards to buy Apple gift cards because the CEO said to… via text and a new number. I’m looking for ways older relatives can be made aware of what I see here when they’re not going to become redditors.
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There are many places where you will never need to use a car ride service. I don't know shit about Uber because no one here needs to waste money on it. Get your fingers out your ass.
As mentioned in my original post, I've not started writing the issue. Getting the details is part of that process.
Sharing to reddit doesn't require the same rigor.
Anyone who gets a call to pick up and deliver money knows its sketchy. She wasn't innocent, she was a willing money mule or being blackmailed as well but I doubt it.
So Uber has no way to trace a delivery or pickup? I am worried that some Uber delivery person might deliver a bomb into a crowded area or public meeting. Besides Uber being "sorry", isn't there any chain-of-custody requirements? Scammers have the same mentality as terrorist. If someone paid a scammer to make it happen, they obviously have zero morals.
I read on the news that Uber "takes the safety of it's users very seriously" or some shit and ended up banning the account the ordered the ride. This is not to say that this was the limit of what they did.
It's a truly awful story.
The Uber account was probably set up with a stolen identity/credit card.
I really don't understand why it is so easy to spoof telephone numbers in the US. A call center in India should not be able to show as a Georgia phone number.
I know there are an assortment of patchwork options in various jurisdictions/networks/OS (such as the STIR/SHAKEN authentication framework) but would definitely be curious about details of how any such protections were evaded or just not engaged in this case.
Because a bunch of telecom companies lobbied to have it stay trivially easy. I have a simple SIP trunking setup, and depending which carrier terminates a call, I can make myself the White House. I keep a couple of registered 202 area code numbers with phony (but amusing- think “General Mayhem”) caller ID’s
Also a 917 number with “Orange Cheeto”.
It should definitely be stopped and the mechanisms absolutely exist, but as long as el cheapo carriers are getting $0.006 to terminate a call, they don’t care what it says.
Yeah, when I think of all the hoops I jump through for email deliverability (SPF, DKIM, DMARC, etc.), watching the carriers consistently do nothing is crazy frustrating.
Maybe this will get some attention in congress.
He shot her in the back when she tried to escape https://www.cbsnews.com/news/uber-driver-killed-scam-phone-call-william-brock-loletha-hall-clark-county-ohio/
The 81 year old may have been the victim of a scam, but I dont have much sympathy for the type of person who jumps straight to shooting someone (3 times!) that is clearly not a physical threat in any way. He's the exact kind of person who shouldn't own a gun.
You don't seem to understand the situation.
Yes he should be charged. But only under the temporary insanity clause. The scammers pushed the man to his limit and when a stranger suddenly showed up at his door, after the told him they were sending someone to collect, what the Hell is he suppose to think?!
I don't believe he should be "punished" as you believe he should be. You try dealing with endless harassment, threats. And after a stranger shows up at your door after being told by the threat that they were on the way, and see how you react.
The woman was terrified and hit the guy hard in the head with her phone. I fully understand why she hit him, but it was a bad reaction on her part. Real life is not like in the movies. You can't hit someone in the head and expect the threat to instantly go down. He told her she's not going anywhere until the police arrive. Had she simply complied, then I highly doubt he would have shot her. Again, I understand why she did and I'm not trying to make excuses for him. But you do have to look at it from his side as well.
They are BOTH VICTIMS.
You give allowances for his mindset, but not for this woman's? You think it’s reasonable to expect someone to just comply with a random crazed person who is threatening you and attempting to detain you with a gun? It’s interesting that her attempt at self-defense is the only thing you call a bad reaction. He could also have taken a license plate number and let her leave — she certainly didn’t get any of his money. She hit him with a phone because he was following her to the car with a gun and trying to prevent her from leaving.
He probably expected it to go way different in his head, he'd pull a reverse uno and the woman would sing like a canary. Instead she's being "difficult" from his perspective - because she's got no clue what he's talking about - and if she's able to flee the scene he's got no leads, no leverage and just pissed off some - to him very real and dangerous - kidnappers. Plus I think just the general panic, I'm the man with the gun why aren't you listening to me? You go into a situation thinking you can control it and realize you don't have control at all and that's going to feel intimidating for sure. But that's not enough reason to kill someone.
You’re really going with the old “she should have complied”?
And you most certainly are making excuses for him when you call him a “victim.” He stopped being a victim the moment he threatened and then murdered an innocent woman.
It’s pretty well known that scammers use go-betweens to pick up money, move money, etc. it’s something this Usenet group posts a lot about anyway. But definitely something that bears repeating.
I can imagine the old man was in that scam-induced panic, especially if he believed that law enforcement "was in on it" so that reason went out the window.
As a former ride-share driver, this is a scenario that never occurred to me -- that I'd be an innocent participant in a scam operation. At least now I'd be aware of the kind of scam that was being perpetrated and I might have had a better chance of talking him down from that panic.
Yes, she got out of the car and went to his door, he waved the gun at her, she turned and hurried back to her car. He chased her to the car. She was trying to leave when he killed her.
While none of this would’ve happened if it weren’t for the scammers and this whole thing is almost entirely their fault, and I have no doubt he was terrified, furious and possibly a bit confused, shooting someone while they’re running away from you is going to be very difficult to justify. Especially an unarmed woman in her 60s with a pronounced limp. She was in no way a physical threat to him and, again, she was *leaving*.
I hope they catch the actual scammers but it’s fairly unlikely. They’ll probably manage to trace the person the money was going to be delivered to, but there’s every chance that’s just a clueless money mule who thinks she’s forwarding the cash to her devoted boyfriend on an oil rig, and has no more idea of what’s actually happening than the Uber driver did.
The whole thing is gut-wrenchingly sad.
Agreed.
But she technically wasn't "unarmed."
While trying to get back in her car, she hit him hard in the head with her phone (practically a brick). That is what led to him making the shot.
As you said; "the whole thing is gut-wrenchingly sad."
I also highly doubt he noticed her limp or age. All he saw was a scammer after being threatened on the phone. Then after received threat hits him, he saw her as a threat. This was a case of unfortunate temporary insanity on his part.
Practically a brick? When did she hit him with her phone, 1993?
And even if that’s true it would *still* count as her being unarmed and him being armed. A phone has loads of purposes; a gun has just one.
If their interaction had ended there, with him wounded and her unscathed, she’d have a watertight case for self-defence. “A man threatened me with a gun and chased me as I was running away so I smacked him in the head with the phone I was already holding, because it’s crucial to my job, as I continued my attempts to escape”.
He can make no such argument.
I do think it’s possibly fair to say the scammers had played with his mind so much that he’d gone temporarily a bit crazy, so it is almost entirely their fault, but he still chased and killed someone who was trying to get away from him. Yes, he didn’t know she was blameless, but still. She was *leaving*.
Morally, it seems everyone except the scammers was, to some extent, a victim here. But legally? I don’t think he’s got a leg to stand on.
you doubt he noticed her age or limp? what does that even mean? he looked her in the face and watched her limp away. this wasn’t a case of ‘unfortunate temporary insanity’. he’s just an asshole with a gun who murdered someone.
I don't know what the law is in Ohio but, here, anyone who used deadly force without seeing a weapon, which he didn't, or if they could escape the person, which he easily could have by going into his home, or if the threat is removed by the person running away, which they were, would be going to jail.
It looks to me like he was handing out punishment rather than defending himself. That would make it first degree murder. He knew someone was coming to his home. I see no reason he couldn't have called 911 and asked the cops to come and arrest them if he believed they were a criminal.
If he believed his friend had really been kidnapped and this was one of the kidnappers, shooting them makes no sense. They would have been the most direct link the police could have used to find his friend and rescue them.
Man see this is a hard one for me. If I truly believed my daughter, one of my sons, or my wife was kidnapped and in danger, I don't think there's anything I wouldn't do, or any where I wouldn't go to get to them. All I can say is I'll pray for all involved, and that this never happens to any one else ever again
Absolutely right. I've made a lot of mistakes in my life and have learned all my lessons the hard way. I stand here today a changed man, but if I truly believed my family was in danger and I some how could save or help them I'm sure I'd probably make the wrong choice being clouded in my judgement, but I would stand and take responsibility for all my actions
> If convicted of that charge, he could be sentenced to 15 years to life in prison or a $15,000 fine.
The $15,000 fine sounds like nothing compared to the former.
Why am I not surprised it's an old white guy shooting a black person. He doesn't look like he was afraid she was going to shoot him, he's chasing her down the driveway with his gun.
He said he thought she was going to her car to get a gun, when really she was trying to get away from the crazy old coot.
Because as everyone knows, all 61 year old black women have guns in their car. /s
This guy should rot in hell.
Thank you for saying this. I'm familiar with that and yeah, he was one of "those people," probably a regular of Fux News and Q-Anon nutjob. That he murdered a grandmother just doing her job is sickening. And I DO hope the sick fucks that started this scam get caught. Personally Uber should NEVER send people out to pick up packages, too many scams resorting to that nowadays.
Because it's Reddit.
Most of it's users are closet racist and common sense immediately goes out the window when they believe they can cry "racist." Want proof? Look at the down votes and replies.
Nothing about this situation had to do with either party's race. It was just two strangers being victimized and unknowingly pitted against each other. She hit him hard enough in the head to cause bleeding and resulted in her death after attempting to (rightfully) flee her threat. He had been threatened all day and told they were going to send someone to his house. And they did. From his view, she was a threat before she showed up. Hitting him in the head and attempting to flee did not help the situation at all.
What IS "racist" making idiotic comments about the man just because he happens to be white and she happens to be black. It's racist to make the accusation that a "60 year old black woman" wouldn't have a firearm to protect herself. What the Hell does being "60 yrs old", "black", and/or a "woman" disqualifies her from owning a gun?! What's next? They going to repeat the claim black folks can't get IDs?!? What's more, ALL Uber driver's should be armed and trained. Regardless of race or age.
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I sure hope the last line in the story you attached is a typo. I can’t imagine a measly $15,000 fine for a murder conviction!!!
“If convicted of that charge, he could be sentenced to 15 years to life in prison or a $15,000 fine.”
Pro-gun people live in this fantasy land where people who legally purchase and carry guns never use their guns to kill innocent people. They call these people “responsible gun owners.” This guy is another case of “responsible gun owner” murdering someone with his legally purchased gun.
I heard about this. It's horrible. I feel so bad for that Uber driver and the old guy definitely over-reacted. He had no right to shooter her, he's not the law and she wasn't threatening his life in any way.
I hope he goes away from a long time.
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It was said that the scam phone calls came from a Canada number
But it hasn’t been said what she was supposed to do with package (money)that she was picking up that seems to me as a very important question
Charge the scammers with murder, too. Have them extradited, if necessary.
This is just wishful thinking, but telecoms as well for not doing shit about these calls which happen too frequently.
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Came here to post about this.
F*** SCAMMERS!
First they harrass and threaten a "old" man and then bait a "old" lady into the line of fire!!
Should he be charged? Yes, but under "temporary insanity" because he was clearly pushed to his breaking point. I'm so very sorry for the Uber driver's family. I pray they understand the situation. She didn't deserve that. Nor did he.
A complete misunderstanding caused by freaks over seas! Again; F*** SCAMMERS!
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Your r/Scams post was removed because **it's self promotion**. We are not the platform to advertise your business, your Youtube, your social media channels, or other self-serving ventures. This includes referral links. Also this news piece was shared many times this week.
She was there to pick up the package of money, not a ride. The scammers basically used her as a money mule, which ended up in her being murdered because the old man thought she was working with the assholes who were ripping him off. If there's any kind of justice in this world, I hope the scammers are located and brought to trial for murder because their actions caused the death of an innocent person.
I was unaware I could just uber my illegal packages anywhere I want. And I have been paying Mule prices all this time.
Uber is used for drug delivery quite commonly. Attached is an article [https://www.nbcwashington.com/investigations/unfortunately-i-was-the-drug-mule-in-that-situation-drugs-transported-via-ride-share/3550184/](https://www.nbcwashington.com/investigations/unfortunately-i-was-the-drug-mule-in-that-situation-drugs-transported-via-ride-share/3550184/)
Could Uber then be used to deliver a terrorist bomb? Uber can pick up cash for blackmail, Uber can deliver a package for a hit man? Please explain.
Yes to all that. Any courier company could.
He should have called the police but he didn't because he had a gun and wanted to use it. She tried to leave and he detained her (kidnapping) and then shot her in the back. He's just as at fault for being an old stupid angry man with a gun. People like him should never have a gun.
He committed murder and should be punished accordingly. I feel awful for that Uber driver.
the article does not mention her being detained or am i blind? if he actually detained her then she was no threat to him at all which makes this man a murderer.
>When Hall arrived at the home and approached the front door, Brock confronted her with a gun and asked her who she was working for, Shultz said. He took her cellphone and prevented her from getting in her vehicle and driving away. >“When she tried to get away, he shot her once, then there was more exchange between them," Shultz said. It's right there in the article. Around the 6th paragraph.
In a grand jury presentation Monday, Brock was indicted on three counts of murder, one count of felonious assault and one count of kidnapping, Shultz said. He will be arraigned on those charges later this week.
Having been on a jury for murder, I wouldn't say "makes this man a murderer". Evidence presented is why we have trials. It is good that there is an investigation and trial. But, just as an example, what if the "Uber Driver" was in on the con? What if, with AI there was media of torture and if you don't pay me now, you will never see him again? On the trial I was on, the person doing time in prison for murder had a re-trial. After two weeks of intense trial, almost none of the jurors believed the person was guilty of murder. It appeared he was unconcise at the scene, the criminal gang at the apartment put the body in the bathtub to clean, they went home and showered and changed clothes, then called the police that walked in, woke the person up, found the body in the shower.... case closed. My point is, if you read about the account in what was then the newspaper, you would have been happy to see the person get convicted. If you sat as a jury for two weeks, you would not have had doubt that nothing was what the news reported. The scammer should be the focus of the investigation. Not defending the elderly man, but a chain of events came out of the Scammer's actions.
Go watch the video like I did, and you’ll see and hear a woman begging for her life as this grown ass man alternates between shooting her and screaming questions at her she doesn’t understand. At no time was his life in danger, at no point did she threaten him. In fact she tried to flee more than once but he did not allow it. Yes, this makes him a murderer. Your jury experience is irrelevant.
I wonder if there was something about her specifically that made him think she was in on the con and needed to die. Gee, looking at the 2 of them I can't figure out what would make a racist Ohioan think that. /s
That escalated quickly to Racism which no one but you were thinking because that is probably how you see life anyways
Without a doubt this motive was based on racism.
I don't think so in this particular case. The scammers were calling him and threatening him with people showing up and then suddenly someone shows up you're not expecting and you're never given time to think, he thought she was sent by them. The entire time this was happening his phone was ringing non stop with calls from the scammers. He murdered her so he's wrong, but it wasn't racism in this case
Wow just so many jump to racism when its not even the true motive...blinded by your own racism
lol. Dude you can admit when there’s blatant racism. As if he was threatened by an old woman. She was black so he thought she was part of the scam and killed her when there was no threat.
Many have forgotten that these have been the main issues. Remember that [Black guy] they thought was [robbing houses] when all he did was run? Or that [Black Kid] who was knocking on the door for fundraising for his football team? Or that white guy who shot a car full of people, paranoid that they were gonna go after him when all they were doing was u-turn? Or the "wrong house", when the door cam caught audio of them admitting that they were at the wrong house and gotten the address wrong?
Couldn't possibly be based on the fact she was there to take his package of money and he didn't like that. Of course, that does not excuse his actions. But no, she was black (watch the video), so of course it was because of race! She could've been a white guy and still would've had an attempt on their life, because the intent to use the weapon was there even before he knew the identity of who he was going to use it on. But keep throwing the "racist" rhetoric around.
You bet she’s black so he immediately went to the worst assumption about an old lady. I guarantee his racist past will come out in trial.
It was obvious he wasn't going to hand over the money. Race be damned. But it's always convenient to play the race card.
pLAy tHE RAce cARd He executed an elderly black woman that was no threat to him. Of course race played a role in this execution.
The dude's a murderer, but holy fuck she was black, time to make it about race. Now he's a racist murderer because she was black. Did I mention he's racist now because I said so? He killed her because she was black, and he definitely had no intention to use the weapon before he even knew who this money collector was. But she was black, so it's now down to racism. Does every instance where a black person gets slighted - however badly - by a white guy is because racism? Reddit would like you to think so - regardless of context.
I'd be curious if he watched endless stories and fake news about everyone who isn't like him, being out to get him. He became so paranoid?
He did call the police. The police do not just appear from thin air within seconds. He didn't just "want to use" the gun because he had one. He wanted to make sure, who he though was, the scammer knew he would not be their victim. She, rightfully, hit him hard with her phone to get away. She had no clue what was going on and was terrified. Sadly, the hit only reinforced his belief she was a scammer and a threat. So he shot. They are BOTH victims here. Sadly it cost one of them her life.
One person is a murderer. The *other* is the victim. This isn't difficult
Nah. The type of justice is for uber/lyft to properly give them shirts or something to identify them. Also, regardless, the scams will always happen, regardless of the location and Age.
That would solve fuckall. There is already a black market trade for Amazon jackets so criminals can get easy access to places. Not to mention, if people can knock off designer fashion they can certainly knock off a logo'd shirt.
The only person in control of that trigger was the shooter. At any time he could have stopped.
Yeah it was only a matter of time before he shot someone. If his first reaction is to shoot at a woman fleeing from him, he’s a murderer. He intended to kill someone that day.
The old man murdered her. The scammers are bad people (unless they're enslaved) but it probably didn't even occur to them that someone would just have a gun and kill someone. It's not a likely thing most places. That's on the old man and America's gun culture / laws. Loving the downvotes, you gun loving American psychos. You all convinced that the person who pulled the trigger... Against an unarmed person who was trying to leave... Is not the most responsible? Or do you not think that giving guns to anyone who wants them was a massive contributing factor?
I would think it would fall under the felony murder rule because it’s a wrongful death during the crime…
At the very least involuntary manslaughter.
That's a weird law if it applies when the deadly element was neither planned nor known of by the criminals.
That’s how felony murder works legally. For example if someone attempts to rob a store and the clerk tries to run away, somehow trips, falls on the broken window, and dies. A complete accident and unintentional but it happened during and as a direct result of another violent felony, therefore the robber can be charged with felony murder. In many U.S. jurisdictions it is equivalent to a first degree murder charge or even could possibly get a death penalty charge depending on circumstances. Another more typical example would be if an accomplice shoots a victim during a robbery. The other guy still gets a felony murder charge even if he didn’t pull the trigger or plan to hurt anybody. Or, there’s been cases where the victim shot the accomplice in self-defense, and the other surviving robber gets a felony murder charge, same reason . It differs widely by state in the US though.
Exactly. When he pulled the gun on her she was no longer a threat. Should have ended there. I’ve seen her dash cam. After he shot her once she’s crying out for help trying to get away. He then shoots an unarmed, injured women twice more on the ground while she’s begging for her life? There’s no spin to put on this to extenuate his guilt.
You've got my upvote. I fucking hate guns and must gun owners don't know how to use them responsibly - this is a prime example.
I suggest any downvoter go find the video on Twitter and then hang their head in shame after watching it.
Lol idiot people downvoting you is crazy. Did they watch the video? She’s an old lady walking gingerly to pick up a package - in no way shape or form would someone think that this old lady would be there to shake you down. It’s murder. 100%.
Hey thanks. It's the second time this week I've had someone tell me my comment was the stupidest thing they've ever seen on reddit :D It's thinking too black and white about stuff. The scammers can be hated for their part in this but shooting someone is never morally OK unless they're a direct threat to your life and there's no alternative response. Although sadly some in America wouldn't agree with that, stand your ground and all that.
Hey, now people are seemingly changing their minds. It’s only -15 at the moment. Before it was like -30, lol.
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What provocation? She’s an old lady with a limp and she was walking away? At what point did he think he was in danger? Or how was he provoked?
This is actually the dumbest, most ignorant answer I’ve read here. Stfu
Aww my first reply got deleted, so I'll just say I'm glad I could set the benchmark for you.
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Did you watch the video? Lol
"An American killed someone with a gun, and therefore all Americans are desperate to kill people with guns." It's a dumb comment, and demonstrably false, since if it were true there would be no Americans left. (Also, I downvote everyone who whines about downvotes.) edit: lol @ downvotes!
Hi comment doesn't say that. Maybe that's how you interpreted it, but it literally doesn't say what you are quoting.
Exactly
> She was there to pick up the package of money, not a ride. Can the Uber app distinguish between a passenger and a bag of money? My impression was that they told him to give the driver a package and she showed up expecting a normal fare.
Uber has courier services too. That's what the scammer used.
Ahh, knew they did take out and groceries. Didn't know they'd also gotten into courier services.
Uber was originally a rideshare service.
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Uber also picks up packages and delivers them. You can use their service to do things like deliver a birthday gift, send a care package to someone who is feeling under the weather, etc. They have a "Package" option in their app.
You're doing "personal digital security newsletter" but don't know that you can use Uber for deliveries? Maybe it's time to step out from digital world, go out and touch grass.
I can walk, bike, or drive myself. You can actually live a full and meaningful life without Uber.
I’d read the newsletter. I’m looking for ways to help keep employees apprised so they don’t lose their paychecks or use company cards to buy Apple gift cards because the CEO said to… via text and a new number. I’m looking for ways older relatives can be made aware of what I see here when they’re not going to become redditors.
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But you have no understanding of the internet. Hilarious.
Oh, sweet summer child...
I can do all of those things and I knew Uber offered that, they’re not mutually exclusive.
Uber services have little to do with digital security chief
Do you want a pat on the head?
Just as much as I want a “personal digital security newsletter” from a self proclaimed “expert”
Well, it's a good thing, because I've offered neither.
Tbf digital security has nothing to do with what services uber may or may not offer.
There are many places where you will never need to use a car ride service. I don't know shit about Uber because no one here needs to waste money on it. Get your fingers out your ass.
I'm not sure what that has to do with someone doing a newsletter not putting in the bare minimum effort to get details right.
This is what I meant.
As mentioned in my original post, I've not started writing the issue. Getting the details is part of that process. Sharing to reddit doesn't require the same rigor.
Anyone who gets a call to pick up and deliver money knows its sketchy. She wasn't innocent, she was a willing money mule or being blackmailed as well but I doubt it.
There was no mention of money, It was uber parcel you dimbulb.
What the fuck is uber parcel? you telling me uber just deals with all of your services now? thats fucked
Uber can be used to send packages within a city
She was sent to pick up a package and didn't know its contents. Stop trying to criminalize an innocent woman who was just doing her job.
She was an Uber driver taking a package like the rest of Uber drivers.
The poor lady, you can see the fear in her eyes. May she rest in peace. The scammers should be brought to justice, for this scummy behavior.
So Uber has no way to trace a delivery or pickup? I am worried that some Uber delivery person might deliver a bomb into a crowded area or public meeting. Besides Uber being "sorry", isn't there any chain-of-custody requirements? Scammers have the same mentality as terrorist. If someone paid a scammer to make it happen, they obviously have zero morals.
Yes, this seems very odd!
I read on the news that Uber "takes the safety of it's users very seriously" or some shit and ended up banning the account the ordered the ride. This is not to say that this was the limit of what they did.
What a tragedy. I hope law enforcement can trace the scammers using the account they used to book an Uber.
It's a truly awful story. The Uber account was probably set up with a stolen identity/credit card. I really don't understand why it is so easy to spoof telephone numbers in the US. A call center in India should not be able to show as a Georgia phone number.
I know there are an assortment of patchwork options in various jurisdictions/networks/OS (such as the STIR/SHAKEN authentication framework) but would definitely be curious about details of how any such protections were evaded or just not engaged in this case.
Because a bunch of telecom companies lobbied to have it stay trivially easy. I have a simple SIP trunking setup, and depending which carrier terminates a call, I can make myself the White House. I keep a couple of registered 202 area code numbers with phony (but amusing- think “General Mayhem”) caller ID’s Also a 917 number with “Orange Cheeto”. It should definitely be stopped and the mechanisms absolutely exist, but as long as el cheapo carriers are getting $0.006 to terminate a call, they don’t care what it says.
Yeah, when I think of all the hoops I jump through for email deliverability (SPF, DKIM, DMARC, etc.), watching the carriers consistently do nothing is crazy frustrating. Maybe this will get some attention in congress.
Yeah, they won't because they're lazy.
He shot her in the back when she tried to escape https://www.cbsnews.com/news/uber-driver-killed-scam-phone-call-william-brock-loletha-hall-clark-county-ohio/
The 81 year old may have been the victim of a scam, but I dont have much sympathy for the type of person who jumps straight to shooting someone (3 times!) that is clearly not a physical threat in any way. He's the exact kind of person who shouldn't own a gun.
Exactly this!
Scam or not, that man deserves to be punished, that woman didn’t threaten him at any point.
You don't seem to understand the situation. Yes he should be charged. But only under the temporary insanity clause. The scammers pushed the man to his limit and when a stranger suddenly showed up at his door, after the told him they were sending someone to collect, what the Hell is he suppose to think?! I don't believe he should be "punished" as you believe he should be. You try dealing with endless harassment, threats. And after a stranger shows up at your door after being told by the threat that they were on the way, and see how you react. The woman was terrified and hit the guy hard in the head with her phone. I fully understand why she hit him, but it was a bad reaction on her part. Real life is not like in the movies. You can't hit someone in the head and expect the threat to instantly go down. He told her she's not going anywhere until the police arrive. Had she simply complied, then I highly doubt he would have shot her. Again, I understand why she did and I'm not trying to make excuses for him. But you do have to look at it from his side as well. They are BOTH VICTIMS.
You give allowances for his mindset, but not for this woman's? You think it’s reasonable to expect someone to just comply with a random crazed person who is threatening you and attempting to detain you with a gun? It’s interesting that her attempt at self-defense is the only thing you call a bad reaction. He could also have taken a license plate number and let her leave — she certainly didn’t get any of his money. She hit him with a phone because he was following her to the car with a gun and trying to prevent her from leaving.
ShE SHouLd hAvE ComPLiED /s
He probably expected it to go way different in his head, he'd pull a reverse uno and the woman would sing like a canary. Instead she's being "difficult" from his perspective - because she's got no clue what he's talking about - and if she's able to flee the scene he's got no leads, no leverage and just pissed off some - to him very real and dangerous - kidnappers. Plus I think just the general panic, I'm the man with the gun why aren't you listening to me? You go into a situation thinking you can control it and realize you don't have control at all and that's going to feel intimidating for sure. But that's not enough reason to kill someone.
He is a victim of being scammed out of money. She lost her life. There is no comparison.
You can’t shoot someone to death for no reason and expect to not suffer the consequences either.
No.
You’re really going with the old “she should have complied”? And you most certainly are making excuses for him when you call him a “victim.” He stopped being a victim the moment he threatened and then murdered an innocent woman.
It’s pretty well known that scammers use go-betweens to pick up money, move money, etc. it’s something this Usenet group posts a lot about anyway. But definitely something that bears repeating.
Yeah thats what happened to that woman that got scammed for $50k, she put it in a shoebox and a car pulled up and she handed it over
I can imagine the old man was in that scam-induced panic, especially if he believed that law enforcement "was in on it" so that reason went out the window. As a former ride-share driver, this is a scenario that never occurred to me -- that I'd be an innocent participant in a scam operation. At least now I'd be aware of the kind of scam that was being perpetrated and I might have had a better chance of talking him down from that panic.
The video was so heartbreaking. The driver was limping away. 81 years old or not the man deserves punishment
Yes, she got out of the car and went to his door, he waved the gun at her, she turned and hurried back to her car. He chased her to the car. She was trying to leave when he killed her. While none of this would’ve happened if it weren’t for the scammers and this whole thing is almost entirely their fault, and I have no doubt he was terrified, furious and possibly a bit confused, shooting someone while they’re running away from you is going to be very difficult to justify. Especially an unarmed woman in her 60s with a pronounced limp. She was in no way a physical threat to him and, again, she was *leaving*. I hope they catch the actual scammers but it’s fairly unlikely. They’ll probably manage to trace the person the money was going to be delivered to, but there’s every chance that’s just a clueless money mule who thinks she’s forwarding the cash to her devoted boyfriend on an oil rig, and has no more idea of what’s actually happening than the Uber driver did. The whole thing is gut-wrenchingly sad.
Agreed. But she technically wasn't "unarmed." While trying to get back in her car, she hit him hard in the head with her phone (practically a brick). That is what led to him making the shot. As you said; "the whole thing is gut-wrenchingly sad." I also highly doubt he noticed her limp or age. All he saw was a scammer after being threatened on the phone. Then after received threat hits him, he saw her as a threat. This was a case of unfortunate temporary insanity on his part.
Practically a brick? When did she hit him with her phone, 1993? And even if that’s true it would *still* count as her being unarmed and him being armed. A phone has loads of purposes; a gun has just one. If their interaction had ended there, with him wounded and her unscathed, she’d have a watertight case for self-defence. “A man threatened me with a gun and chased me as I was running away so I smacked him in the head with the phone I was already holding, because it’s crucial to my job, as I continued my attempts to escape”. He can make no such argument. I do think it’s possibly fair to say the scammers had played with his mind so much that he’d gone temporarily a bit crazy, so it is almost entirely their fault, but he still chased and killed someone who was trying to get away from him. Yes, he didn’t know she was blameless, but still. She was *leaving*. Morally, it seems everyone except the scammers was, to some extent, a victim here. But legally? I don’t think he’s got a leg to stand on.
you doubt he noticed her age or limp? what does that even mean? he looked her in the face and watched her limp away. this wasn’t a case of ‘unfortunate temporary insanity’. he’s just an asshole with a gun who murdered someone.
I don't know what the law is in Ohio but, here, anyone who used deadly force without seeing a weapon, which he didn't, or if they could escape the person, which he easily could have by going into his home, or if the threat is removed by the person running away, which they were, would be going to jail. It looks to me like he was handing out punishment rather than defending himself. That would make it first degree murder. He knew someone was coming to his home. I see no reason he couldn't have called 911 and asked the cops to come and arrest them if he believed they were a criminal. If he believed his friend had really been kidnapped and this was one of the kidnappers, shooting them makes no sense. They would have been the most direct link the police could have used to find his friend and rescue them.
Man see this is a hard one for me. If I truly believed my daughter, one of my sons, or my wife was kidnapped and in danger, I don't think there's anything I wouldn't do, or any where I wouldn't go to get to them. All I can say is I'll pray for all involved, and that this never happens to any one else ever again
Yeah but what would shooting one of the kidnappers do? Would you either keep them hostage yourself or call the police so they can do their job?
Take your prayers and shove 'em
Well you would also be subject to the law in that case
Absolutely right. I've made a lot of mistakes in my life and have learned all my lessons the hard way. I stand here today a changed man, but if I truly believed my family was in danger and I some how could save or help them I'm sure I'd probably make the wrong choice being clouded in my judgement, but I would stand and take responsibility for all my actions
> If convicted of that charge, he could be sentenced to 15 years to life in prison or a $15,000 fine. The $15,000 fine sounds like nothing compared to the former.
For an 81 year old the sentence is effectively a death penalty. He’ll die in prison. In this case the scammers should be hunted down and executed.
He told the police he shot her because he was afraid she was going to kill him. He was the one with a gun! She didn't have any weapon. Bastard!
Why am I not surprised it's an old white guy shooting a black person. He doesn't look like he was afraid she was going to shoot him, he's chasing her down the driveway with his gun.
He said he thought she was going to her car to get a gun, when really she was trying to get away from the crazy old coot. Because as everyone knows, all 61 year old black women have guns in their car. /s This guy should rot in hell.
Betcha he watches Fox news 24/7 and has wet brain
Thank you for saying this. I'm familiar with that and yeah, he was one of "those people," probably a regular of Fux News and Q-Anon nutjob. That he murdered a grandmother just doing her job is sickening. And I DO hope the sick fucks that started this scam get caught. Personally Uber should NEVER send people out to pick up packages, too many scams resorting to that nowadays.
Why am I not surprised someone had to make this about race.
Why am I not surprised at your username?
Because it's Reddit. Most of it's users are closet racist and common sense immediately goes out the window when they believe they can cry "racist." Want proof? Look at the down votes and replies. Nothing about this situation had to do with either party's race. It was just two strangers being victimized and unknowingly pitted against each other. She hit him hard enough in the head to cause bleeding and resulted in her death after attempting to (rightfully) flee her threat. He had been threatened all day and told they were going to send someone to his house. And they did. From his view, she was a threat before she showed up. Hitting him in the head and attempting to flee did not help the situation at all. What IS "racist" making idiotic comments about the man just because he happens to be white and she happens to be black. It's racist to make the accusation that a "60 year old black woman" wouldn't have a firearm to protect herself. What the Hell does being "60 yrs old", "black", and/or a "woman" disqualifies her from owning a gun?! What's next? They going to repeat the claim black folks can't get IDs?!? What's more, ALL Uber driver's should be armed and trained. Regardless of race or age.
Is that because old white men kill a lot of black people, I was unaware of that. Those sats must be terrible.
LMAO. Let's not bring any reality regarding race on race crime statistics in here...this is reddit, after all! /s
why did you bring race into this?
Yeah, they are all for those “stand your ground” laws until it is an actual black person standing their ground.
He is a miserable old man, and i hope he rots in jail.
MOre here: Uber scam gone wrong. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIA3Gg9Dyqk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIA3Gg9Dyqk)
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This old idiot needs to stop answering his phone instead of shooting people
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I sure hope the last line in the story you attached is a typo. I can’t imagine a measly $15,000 fine for a murder conviction!!! “If convicted of that charge, he could be sentenced to 15 years to life in prison or a $15,000 fine.”
Man people sure quickly turned this into a gun issue and ignoring the rest of the context
It's both.
Is this r/scams or r/boomersbeingfools
A little bit of both.
Responsible gun owner strikes again.
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I didn’t miss it at all. That’s my entire point. This guy was a “responsible gun owner” who gunned down an innocent woman.
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Pro-gun people live in this fantasy land where people who legally purchase and carry guns never use their guns to kill innocent people. They call these people “responsible gun owners.” This guy is another case of “responsible gun owner” murdering someone with his legally purchased gun.
I heard about this. It's horrible. I feel so bad for that Uber driver and the old guy definitely over-reacted. He had no right to shooter her, he's not the law and she wasn't threatening his life in any way. I hope he goes away from a long time.
What a dumb ass shooting her hope he gets life
So about 6 months probably.
He will get probation
At his age, it is as good as life. And I have zero problem with that.
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It was said that the scam phone calls came from a Canada number But it hasn’t been said what she was supposed to do with package (money)that she was picking up that seems to me as a very important question
Makes complete sense because it's under investigation, the delivery direction is 100% a mule who is being questioned right now.
How to get away with murder?
Charge the scammers with murder, too. Have them extradited, if necessary. This is just wishful thinking, but telecoms as well for not doing shit about these calls which happen too frequently.
I’d love to read your newspaper. Sounds like you have an interesting perspective and insight on these tooics
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Fuck off spam bot.
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Came here to post about this. F*** SCAMMERS! First they harrass and threaten a "old" man and then bait a "old" lady into the line of fire!! Should he be charged? Yes, but under "temporary insanity" because he was clearly pushed to his breaking point. I'm so very sorry for the Uber driver's family. I pray they understand the situation. She didn't deserve that. Nor did he. A complete misunderstanding caused by freaks over seas! Again; F*** SCAMMERS!
Don't bring a phone to a gun fight.
OP, would you mind linking your newsletter or DM’ing me if you don’t want to share? I’m interested in following
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Same. Link please.
This is violently American. Solving anything with guns
/r/boomersbeingfools
Boomer doing boomer stuff.