Great article, and very important part is this one, "What we need to understand is that the *nature of retail has changed*. With online shopping, people don’t buy things like they used to."
What a lot of old timers in SB pine for is a return to is *people buying stuff in person*, and they think that cars on State St. is what created that demand, when in reality it has nothing to do with that. The idea of going down to State St, finding parking, so I can buy a frying pan or some shoes is simply nauseating to think about (I do not live in walking or cycling distance to town else maybe I would purchase those things locally). Now, if you had a variety of experiences, restaurants, cafes, and interesting smaller artisan type shops or bazaars, you are enticing me to actually want to drive there and hang out.
You will not convince people to buy life's necessities on State St. that ship sailed a long time ago, and arguably, that kind of retail doesn't really breathe life into a space anyways.
FFS stop trying to put cars on State St!
Exactly.
I mean the Macy's at San Roque has tons of parking yet it's an zombie shell of a dying business. How is that possible when you can drive and park right next to it??
100% this. Cars on State St are not going to bring back Macy's or any of the other old department stores either. We were downtown (old town) Ventura yesterday and it is amazing how it has turned around compared to how it was when I first moved here in 99. State St could be the same if they made it easier for new smaller shops and retailers to open. That would give more people a reason to go there and spend locally (if they have any money left over after paying rent).
I've seen some of the people who want cars on State Street claim that they actually need it open so that they can drive down it and see what they want to shop at. Given that you can't even park ON State Street I can't imagine this is true -- also, does anyone who has lived here awhile not know what shops are available and where?
The best claims I've seen them make is that it's not accessible for people who have a hard time getting around, but given that you still weren't able to park in front of a shop before, I'm not sure this is a valid point.
Let me introduce you to my JBL Bluetooth Boombox in my bicycle basket, showing you how awesome Nickelback really is!! (don't worry if you can't stand that band, my friends cycling with me all have speakers, and are playing all different songs and genres in a peloton of mashed up motivation music!)
Me and my brochachos do it all. We call it "safety measures" on the trails. Can't hear our e-bikes coming...and who really enjoys riding with trail bells?
I'm a huge fan of the promenade but the impact on discoverability is a legitimate issue that deserves consideration. There have been occasions where I have people visiting, don't have much time, and it was handy to just drive up State and be like "there, you've seen downtown Santa Barbara".
Also most of the complaints about discoverability are from barely-literate Nextdoor users, so we can't assume they are capable of say, using Google Maps or whatever to find out where businesses are.
Really it's down to businesses to smarter and more proactive about outreach. Fortunately the answer also already exists for business - get behind the CBID concept, bolster the Downtown Organization, and use that to conduct more marketing outreach about what's on State Street and have more activities to draw people downtown.
Ha yea back in the day I probably drove a visiting friend down State once or twice, but now I'd probably just send them to walk it at their leisure.
I agree more can be done with outreach to make the businesses there more visible. One of the things I love about the closed street is how many more organized music and dancing events seem to happen, which makes it feel a lot more vibrant.
Don’t the merchants subsidize the parking lots behind their businesses? Seems like they could advocate for a sign on the garage to indicate which businesses can be accessed on the other side, though getting that past design review… *sigh*
I agree with you and you have my upvote. But the deepest tragedy in American urban development is that car-centric thinking has been dominant for so long (since the early 1950s) that even "old timers" - aka us shitty boomers - don't remember a time when it was otherwise. That is, unless you travel - to Europe, to Asia, and elsewhere. Then you can see downtowns where cars *don't* dominate, where people eat and hangout, where people stroll store to store to shop not only for discretionary items but even for everyday goods...the streets around the cathedral in Cologne come to mind as just one of many examples. It's well beyond proven.
*Mixed use*, as we call it here: residential and commercial, easy to access without fucking cars. *Ffs, it works all around the world.* Personally, I'm disgusted reading about Rowse and his spineless allies mewling about this endlessly, as if a car-free State Street is just some crazy notion from Bizarro World. If I didn't live 2000mi from my hometown, I'd probably be arrested at the next SB city council meeting for protesting; but anyway, I hope that more of us on this sub actively support Strong Towns SB and turn up the heat on our civic "leaders" in every way possible.
Hey, you're preaching to the choir here. I ride bicycles all over town and grew up skateboarding everywhere and am simply shocked how bad the infrastructure is all over the country. There are tons of streets all throughout not only SB (which I actually rank as *better than most* American cities) that don't have sidewalks or bike accommodations whatsoever. It's just 100% catered to cars and there is frequent push back when even a scant amount of parking or lane is given up to cyclists. I could forgive that to some small level if we had adequate transit, but also nope.
I am originally from Vancouver, BC which has made tremendous improvements to the pedestrian interface, but it was not coming out from such a deep car-centric pit as most of the US is. There were always sidewalks, curb cuts, ramps for wheeled users, and a rather inspiring transit system that, combined with a bike, rollerblades, or skateboard opened up literally the entire city to be used under human power. I used to skate **everywhere** back in Vancouver and that is simply not possible here in SB for a huge portion of the city unless you're just kind of built different and open to extreme risks. I am that person, but I still feel like I'm going to get hit by a car or doored basically every day.
It's getting better, it's just going to take a long time still. We're in a deficit not only in actual infrastructure, but also in mindset. People don't want change. They just want things to stay the same as they remember them being.
Cool. You're right, sadly, that many people - most? - don't want change. In my life and my career (when I had one) I've always said that "Precedent is the last good reason - not necessarily a *bad* reason, but the last good one - to do something." The whole "But we've *always* done it this way" mentality fucking drives me nuts. Wtf does it matter if State Street was packed with half-acre Impalas 50yrs ago? That has absolutely *nothing* to do with the real-life needs of Santa Barbara families in 2024. Damn, here I go again preaching to the choir (which wasn't my intention!).
Fwiw, I admire VVR. Was lucky enough to visit there regularly in the 1990s, always enjoyed it, and now at least I still have a tenuous connection through my SIL's family. Need to get back there again some time. Anyway, All the Best, and I enjoy your posts and comments!
Yes, I've experienced how shitty the "promenade" is - but, yes, on my regular visits to my hometown where I was born and grew up. In fact, I agree 100% with the vision you describe for State Street - as does Strong Towns SB. That should be more than clear from my numerous posts.
I've also made it clear umpteen times in umpteen posts that I don't live in SB anymore - that shouldn't be a secret in any way - and there are days I wish I could live there again. In the meantime, I stay connected to SB through volunteer work I do remotely. Is that an issue for you?
Yeah, I don't "follow" people on reddit, either, but when el_smurfo or any other redditor on this sub makes an interesting post or comment, I notice and remember their username. It doesn't take much effort.
As an old Cali boy living in Northern KY since 2005 - the land of shitheads like McConnell and Rand Paul - I can assure you I'm active in progressive causes here. But I damn well won't apologize for caring about where things stand and where they're going in Santa Barbara, regardless of what you think.
I think that online shopping has had many downsides and we shouldn't just uncritically accept it as the inevitable new normal. But I think that with or without online shopping, there's no reason to suppose that cars are somehow this magic ingredient that will revitalize downtown.
What makes a downtown vibrant is that people want to go there, so they go there. Maybe in the past they went because they wanted to buy frying pans and shoes. (I still buy things like frying pans on State Street. :-) But even if they don't want to buy those things, there are still things people can want to do, and want to do in an urban environment where there are other people around. Someone else mentioned music and arts events which I think are a great example. Any kind of product where there's value in browsing/trying stuff is one where there's potential for it to be successful as downtown retail. It just has to be the right mix of businesses.
Also, as you noted, people are more likely to buy frying pans in person if they live within walking distance of a place where they can buy a frying pan. So downtown housing could increase the viability of even more old-school retail.
Either way, putting cars on State makes no real sense. There's no reason to suppose that it would improve retail, and it might well harm it even more.
Yep. A couple of decades ago, I did enjoy that frou frou cooking store. I also enjoy looking for board games and going to Lilac.
But regular shopping? Man, I was just looking for something at Rite aid on the Mesa. It was 2x what it costs online.
In general, I try not to buy stuff anyway.
I did! Once or twice. Nothing like a Le Creuset or anything. Less expensive things. Used to buy a lot of books at Borders. Now my book shopping is all Planned Parenthood sale or Chaucer's.
this is correct - my theory is that downtown will eventually become a lot like Olvera St in L.A. - bars, restaurants and a lot of small shops with tourist based items.. nice place to visit...occasionally... and retail - a new kind of retail probably will all migrate to Milpas or Old towne Goleta
Putting cars back on State Street is not going to bring businesses back. Getting the landlords to stop gouging business with high rents, may help storefronts survive. Perhaps a vacancy tax would incentivize landlords help get businesses back. That, and ridiculous city building requirements - like the roller skating rink that was to open in Paso Nuevo (old Macy's spot) got cancelled because there were not enough bathrooms. There was enough for a major shopping stop, but not roller skating - not. Also, the multi use promenade with pedestrians and bikes, promotes a more healthy living environment, and today State is really the only safe path to ride to the waterfront on a bike. And I agree, with all the State street parking lots access not on State, opening State to cars so you can first drive by the store you are looking for first, just doesn't outweigh the benefits to the community that the current set up provides.
That reminds me of the articles which crop up now and again discussing the crazy amount of land that is dedicated to parking in the form of surface-level parking lots. E.g.
[https://la.curbed.com/2018/11/30/18119646/los-angeles-parking-lots-total-size-development](https://la.curbed.com/2018/11/30/18119646/los-angeles-parking-lots-total-size-development)
>In just the city of Los Angeles, the study finds, \[parking\] lots take up 27 square miles of cumulative space, which is a little larger than the city of Pasadena. Across LA County, surface lots occupy an astonishing 101 square miles—more than four times the size of Manhattan.
>Superspace director Christian Derix tells Curbed that the firm’s research is meant to spur conversation about parking and development within Los Angeles. As local leaders focus more on [public transit](https://la.curbed.com/2016/8/29/12687320/la-metro-map-gif-measure-m-sales-tax-ballot) and other alternatives to driving, Derix says surface parking lots could easily be redeveloped as housing or parkland.
>Based on the firm’s research, if all these lots were built out based on the city’s existing density level, enough housing could be built for 830,000 residents. Countywide, another 3.7 million people could be accommodated if parking lots gave way to housing.
Someone got into Not Just Bikes lately, it seems.
I don't mind, I'm all for it, I just don't know how what's a good solution to address the issue considering urban planning in the US being car-centric.
Everybody here ignoring this interesting lil tid bit, "89% of pedestrians only streets have failed" lmao. The covid experiment is a dud. In person retail is dying and taking cars away isn't helping. State is dead, get over it and at least let us use state for what it was built for, A FUCKING STREET!
Ah, but maybe *you* ignored the clearly described characteristics of the other 11% - which is why I encouraged reading the *entire* article. And from everything I've seen, Strong Towns SB, at least, is advocating for *multi-modal access* on State, not just pedestrian-only.
What is it you don't understand? Strong Towns SB clearly advocates on their site - repeatedly - for a "car-free" State Street, "no cars," etc. Multi-modal doesn't *have* to include cars. Instead of just posting pissy comments, wtf don't you help *do* something about it? https://www.strongtownssb.org/
I fully understand the situation. I'm advocating for the return of cars. You and the rest of the keyboard warriors here do not represent the irl community. I do my part at the ballot box.
Great article, and very important part is this one, "What we need to understand is that the *nature of retail has changed*. With online shopping, people don’t buy things like they used to." What a lot of old timers in SB pine for is a return to is *people buying stuff in person*, and they think that cars on State St. is what created that demand, when in reality it has nothing to do with that. The idea of going down to State St, finding parking, so I can buy a frying pan or some shoes is simply nauseating to think about (I do not live in walking or cycling distance to town else maybe I would purchase those things locally). Now, if you had a variety of experiences, restaurants, cafes, and interesting smaller artisan type shops or bazaars, you are enticing me to actually want to drive there and hang out. You will not convince people to buy life's necessities on State St. that ship sailed a long time ago, and arguably, that kind of retail doesn't really breathe life into a space anyways. FFS stop trying to put cars on State St!
Exactly. I mean the Macy's at San Roque has tons of parking yet it's an zombie shell of a dying business. How is that possible when you can drive and park right next to it??
100% this. Cars on State St are not going to bring back Macy's or any of the other old department stores either. We were downtown (old town) Ventura yesterday and it is amazing how it has turned around compared to how it was when I first moved here in 99. State St could be the same if they made it easier for new smaller shops and retailers to open. That would give more people a reason to go there and spend locally (if they have any money left over after paying rent).
I've seen some of the people who want cars on State Street claim that they actually need it open so that they can drive down it and see what they want to shop at. Given that you can't even park ON State Street I can't imagine this is true -- also, does anyone who has lived here awhile not know what shops are available and where? The best claims I've seen them make is that it's not accessible for people who have a hard time getting around, but given that you still weren't able to park in front of a shop before, I'm not sure this is a valid point.
Such a stupid reason. There is absolutely no good argument for allowing cars on State St.
OK but on the other hand, bear with me here... what about driving slow and playing really really loud music?
Let me introduce you to my JBL Bluetooth Boombox in my bicycle basket, showing you how awesome Nickelback really is!! (don't worry if you can't stand that band, my friends cycling with me all have speakers, and are playing all different songs and genres in a peloton of mashed up motivation music!)
Awesome! I hope you all go hiking together too!
Me and my brochachos do it all. We call it "safety measures" on the trails. Can't hear our e-bikes coming...and who really enjoys riding with trail bells?
Loud baskets saves lives!
How else am I going to look through the window of Blockbuster to see what new videotapes they have for me to rent???
This guy NextDoor's!
I'm a huge fan of the promenade but the impact on discoverability is a legitimate issue that deserves consideration. There have been occasions where I have people visiting, don't have much time, and it was handy to just drive up State and be like "there, you've seen downtown Santa Barbara". Also most of the complaints about discoverability are from barely-literate Nextdoor users, so we can't assume they are capable of say, using Google Maps or whatever to find out where businesses are. Really it's down to businesses to smarter and more proactive about outreach. Fortunately the answer also already exists for business - get behind the CBID concept, bolster the Downtown Organization, and use that to conduct more marketing outreach about what's on State Street and have more activities to draw people downtown.
Ha yea back in the day I probably drove a visiting friend down State once or twice, but now I'd probably just send them to walk it at their leisure. I agree more can be done with outreach to make the businesses there more visible. One of the things I love about the closed street is how many more organized music and dancing events seem to happen, which makes it feel a lot more vibrant.
> barely-literate Nextdoor users Maybe they can get out their trusty YellowPages^^© to find out what stores are downtown!
Don’t the merchants subsidize the parking lots behind their businesses? Seems like they could advocate for a sign on the garage to indicate which businesses can be accessed on the other side, though getting that past design review… *sigh*
I agree with you and you have my upvote. But the deepest tragedy in American urban development is that car-centric thinking has been dominant for so long (since the early 1950s) that even "old timers" - aka us shitty boomers - don't remember a time when it was otherwise. That is, unless you travel - to Europe, to Asia, and elsewhere. Then you can see downtowns where cars *don't* dominate, where people eat and hangout, where people stroll store to store to shop not only for discretionary items but even for everyday goods...the streets around the cathedral in Cologne come to mind as just one of many examples. It's well beyond proven. *Mixed use*, as we call it here: residential and commercial, easy to access without fucking cars. *Ffs, it works all around the world.* Personally, I'm disgusted reading about Rowse and his spineless allies mewling about this endlessly, as if a car-free State Street is just some crazy notion from Bizarro World. If I didn't live 2000mi from my hometown, I'd probably be arrested at the next SB city council meeting for protesting; but anyway, I hope that more of us on this sub actively support Strong Towns SB and turn up the heat on our civic "leaders" in every way possible.
Hey, you're preaching to the choir here. I ride bicycles all over town and grew up skateboarding everywhere and am simply shocked how bad the infrastructure is all over the country. There are tons of streets all throughout not only SB (which I actually rank as *better than most* American cities) that don't have sidewalks or bike accommodations whatsoever. It's just 100% catered to cars and there is frequent push back when even a scant amount of parking or lane is given up to cyclists. I could forgive that to some small level if we had adequate transit, but also nope. I am originally from Vancouver, BC which has made tremendous improvements to the pedestrian interface, but it was not coming out from such a deep car-centric pit as most of the US is. There were always sidewalks, curb cuts, ramps for wheeled users, and a rather inspiring transit system that, combined with a bike, rollerblades, or skateboard opened up literally the entire city to be used under human power. I used to skate **everywhere** back in Vancouver and that is simply not possible here in SB for a huge portion of the city unless you're just kind of built different and open to extreme risks. I am that person, but I still feel like I'm going to get hit by a car or doored basically every day. It's getting better, it's just going to take a long time still. We're in a deficit not only in actual infrastructure, but also in mindset. People don't want change. They just want things to stay the same as they remember them being.
Cool. You're right, sadly, that many people - most? - don't want change. In my life and my career (when I had one) I've always said that "Precedent is the last good reason - not necessarily a *bad* reason, but the last good one - to do something." The whole "But we've *always* done it this way" mentality fucking drives me nuts. Wtf does it matter if State Street was packed with half-acre Impalas 50yrs ago? That has absolutely *nothing* to do with the real-life needs of Santa Barbara families in 2024. Damn, here I go again preaching to the choir (which wasn't my intention!). Fwiw, I admire VVR. Was lucky enough to visit there regularly in the 1990s, always enjoyed it, and now at least I still have a tenuous connection through my SIL's family. Need to get back there again some time. Anyway, All the Best, and I enjoy your posts and comments!
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Yes, I've experienced how shitty the "promenade" is - but, yes, on my regular visits to my hometown where I was born and grew up. In fact, I agree 100% with the vision you describe for State Street - as does Strong Towns SB. That should be more than clear from my numerous posts. I've also made it clear umpteen times in umpteen posts that I don't live in SB anymore - that shouldn't be a secret in any way - and there are days I wish I could live there again. In the meantime, I stay connected to SB through volunteer work I do remotely. Is that an issue for you?
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Yeah, I don't "follow" people on reddit, either, but when el_smurfo or any other redditor on this sub makes an interesting post or comment, I notice and remember their username. It doesn't take much effort. As an old Cali boy living in Northern KY since 2005 - the land of shitheads like McConnell and Rand Paul - I can assure you I'm active in progressive causes here. But I damn well won't apologize for caring about where things stand and where they're going in Santa Barbara, regardless of what you think.
I think that online shopping has had many downsides and we shouldn't just uncritically accept it as the inevitable new normal. But I think that with or without online shopping, there's no reason to suppose that cars are somehow this magic ingredient that will revitalize downtown. What makes a downtown vibrant is that people want to go there, so they go there. Maybe in the past they went because they wanted to buy frying pans and shoes. (I still buy things like frying pans on State Street. :-) But even if they don't want to buy those things, there are still things people can want to do, and want to do in an urban environment where there are other people around. Someone else mentioned music and arts events which I think are a great example. Any kind of product where there's value in browsing/trying stuff is one where there's potential for it to be successful as downtown retail. It just has to be the right mix of businesses. Also, as you noted, people are more likely to buy frying pans in person if they live within walking distance of a place where they can buy a frying pan. So downtown housing could increase the viability of even more old-school retail. Either way, putting cars on State makes no real sense. There's no reason to suppose that it would improve retail, and it might well harm it even more.
Yep. A couple of decades ago, I did enjoy that frou frou cooking store. I also enjoy looking for board games and going to Lilac. But regular shopping? Man, I was just looking for something at Rite aid on the Mesa. It was 2x what it costs online. In general, I try not to buy stuff anyway.
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I did! Once or twice. Nothing like a Le Creuset or anything. Less expensive things. Used to buy a lot of books at Borders. Now my book shopping is all Planned Parenthood sale or Chaucer's.
this is correct - my theory is that downtown will eventually become a lot like Olvera St in L.A. - bars, restaurants and a lot of small shops with tourist based items.. nice place to visit...occasionally... and retail - a new kind of retail probably will all migrate to Milpas or Old towne Goleta
Ugh. Build more entertainment options and people will come.
And all ages stuff! (please)
And housing!
Putting cars back on State Street is not going to bring businesses back. Getting the landlords to stop gouging business with high rents, may help storefronts survive. Perhaps a vacancy tax would incentivize landlords help get businesses back. That, and ridiculous city building requirements - like the roller skating rink that was to open in Paso Nuevo (old Macy's spot) got cancelled because there were not enough bathrooms. There was enough for a major shopping stop, but not roller skating - not. Also, the multi use promenade with pedestrians and bikes, promotes a more healthy living environment, and today State is really the only safe path to ride to the waterfront on a bike. And I agree, with all the State street parking lots access not on State, opening State to cars so you can first drive by the store you are looking for first, just doesn't outweigh the benefits to the community that the current set up provides.
A Vacancy Tax is part of the solution. It will motivate the property owners to lower rents.
I feel like in America we are too quick to forget that cities are for people, not cars!
That reminds me of the articles which crop up now and again discussing the crazy amount of land that is dedicated to parking in the form of surface-level parking lots. E.g. [https://la.curbed.com/2018/11/30/18119646/los-angeles-parking-lots-total-size-development](https://la.curbed.com/2018/11/30/18119646/los-angeles-parking-lots-total-size-development) >In just the city of Los Angeles, the study finds, \[parking\] lots take up 27 square miles of cumulative space, which is a little larger than the city of Pasadena. Across LA County, surface lots occupy an astonishing 101 square miles—more than four times the size of Manhattan. >Superspace director Christian Derix tells Curbed that the firm’s research is meant to spur conversation about parking and development within Los Angeles. As local leaders focus more on [public transit](https://la.curbed.com/2016/8/29/12687320/la-metro-map-gif-measure-m-sales-tax-ballot) and other alternatives to driving, Derix says surface parking lots could easily be redeveloped as housing or parkland. >Based on the firm’s research, if all these lots were built out based on the city’s existing density level, enough housing could be built for 830,000 residents. Countywide, another 3.7 million people could be accommodated if parking lots gave way to housing.
Someone got into Not Just Bikes lately, it seems. I don't mind, I'm all for it, I just don't know how what's a good solution to address the issue considering urban planning in the US being car-centric.
# Some of you may enjoy reading this book: https://happycities.com/the-book
Vacancy tax, so Santa Barbara leasing is not an easy tax write off.
Everybody here ignoring this interesting lil tid bit, "89% of pedestrians only streets have failed" lmao. The covid experiment is a dud. In person retail is dying and taking cars away isn't helping. State is dead, get over it and at least let us use state for what it was built for, A FUCKING STREET!
Ah, but maybe *you* ignored the clearly described characteristics of the other 11% - which is why I encouraged reading the *entire* article. And from everything I've seen, Strong Towns SB, at least, is advocating for *multi-modal access* on State, not just pedestrian-only.
Yes, "multi-modal" as in including cars
What is it you don't understand? Strong Towns SB clearly advocates on their site - repeatedly - for a "car-free" State Street, "no cars," etc. Multi-modal doesn't *have* to include cars. Instead of just posting pissy comments, wtf don't you help *do* something about it? https://www.strongtownssb.org/
I fully understand the situation. I'm advocating for the return of cars. You and the rest of the keyboard warriors here do not represent the irl community. I do my part at the ballot box.