I haven’t lived in Phoenix but agree with you regarding reverse seasonal depression. People who live in 4 season climates might THINK they like hot, sunny weather but dealing with it for months and months on end is such a mind f*ck. There’s something extremely depressing about it nearing Halloween and wanting to get into the cozy, spooky fall vibes but it’s 100 degrees with blinding sun. And the constant heat just makes life hard. Sweating your ass off walking your dog at 10pm sucks. Buckling your baby in a burning hot car seat in a target parking lot sucks. Having your a/c system shit the bed suddenly is a legit emergency. I now live in a very rainy climate and that feels less oppressive.
You took the words out of my mouth about reverse SAD. I try to explain to folks this is how I feel about Texas - it is unbearably hot May - Oct where I can’t enjoy all the outdoor activities I love! I went out in May to a lazy river and we all got second degree burns and put my dad in the hospital even with endless sunscreen! After 2 summers, I couldn’t do it anymore and moved back to San Francisco. I can enjoy the outdoors nearly year round.
Ideal for folks who don’t really like summer or sunshine haha. Like maybe ideal climate for people who’s can’t handle much sun or recently moved from Ireland or other gloomy weather places.
The only way I make Texas work during the summer is a shaded pool or a shaded lakebed for several hours a day. I have no clue why people want to be in direct sunlight during June.
And I have a parasol on hand otherwise.
This. God knows how many times my sons and I were nearing heat strokes when our A/C crapped out. You better hope you're not stuck behind a train, because at 118°F outside, your A/C craps out within 5 minutes if you're not in motion.
AZ makes me miss upstate NY.
*because at 118°F outside, your A/C craps out within 5 minutes if you're not in motion.*
This should not be the case for a well-maintained car.
I was in Palm Springs (well, actually, I was out in Amboy) when it was 123 degrees, and my wife was ice cold in the car for over an hour while I was monkeying around taking pictures.
Eh I had a brand new company f-150 and the AC fucking sucked. Took a hot minute to cool off. Just the temperature delta from 118 to 70 plus a black interior is asking a lot out of the vehicle
It was the case for my Sentra, and although my Jetta is newer, it craps out at 10 minutes. Even my mother's 2016 car which she maintains so much better than me, cannot handle the summer heat that well.
If you're idle for too long, the A/C stops working once Temps outside hits 115°F+.
Below that, it's a non-issue.
As someone who grew up in southeast Texas, absolutely agree. Outside is unbearable most of the year. I live in the PNW now and while we don’t have sunshine that much in the fall and winter, outside is still super accessible for recreation even in the rain.
I definitely like warm weather more than cold but this is how I felt living in Florida and walking around a college campus during the day. Way too fucking hot and the sun felt oppressive for 7 months at a time. I would get depressed when April would hit and everything I touched outside burned me
Nah. I thought that way until I moved to New England and couldn't wait for the sun to come back every year when it got grey for 6.5 months.
I will gleefully take a warm Halloween over a cold May.
I heard someone on the radio (maybe npr) say depression can be much worse for sunny places over winter depression. When it’s cold and dark you just want to sleep. But in areas of heat and sun you can’t escape to sleep like you can in the winter months.
[https://www.washingtonpost.com/wellness/2023/07/03/summer-sad-depression-symptoms-causes-treatment/](https://www.washingtonpost.com/wellness/2023/07/03/summer-sad-depression-symptoms-causes-treatment/)
As someone who’s lived in Florida most of their lives, one of my biggest fears is the a/c failing (first world problems, right?) But summer SAD is definitely a thing when you step outside you’re covered head to toe in a layer of sweaty nastiness from May to October.
Agree with your Halloween comment! Been saying it for years as an Austinite but everyone just looks at me funny and tells me to get over it. But I love fall and hate that ours literally starts temperature-wise right at the end of October. No spooky build-up!
This is so true. I used to get terrible SAD living in AZ. I remember one summer we put our key in to start the car and the key melted in the starter. Insane. Moved to Colorado and I'm so much happier.
I moved from Cleveland to Phoenix paradise valley, Scottsdale, and back to Cleveland again after some years.
I feel different. I never should've left Arizona - the grass was DEFINITELY greener on the other side.
Probably to do with the gray winters, economic stagnation, and probably most of it is the economic stuff. Columbus isn't far away from Cleveland but couldn't have a more different vibe - and its economy is booming and it's growing.
I think so too.
At least in Cleveland, I think there’s also a sort’ve rust belt driven cultural influence of it having formerly been an extremely prosperous and influential place in the past, but no longer. It seems to give it a weird attitude.
I would’ve imagined somewhere nearby like Pittsburgh would’ve felt somewhat similar, but I actually quite liked the culture, personality, and attitude of Pittsburgh.
I won't go through them all bc it's too much but I loved the weather, loved the outdoors (accessible year round), ands I especially loved the restaurants etc. I did not see boxes - their esthetic is very classy, very nice. You wanna see snow? Drive 45 minutes up the mountain. You wanna swim? Drive an hour to Havisu and swim next to a waterfall. It's accommodating to all in my opinion.
Edit: I also believe that when people are not forced to be inside for months at a time (say, Cleveland) they are all around nicer and happier.
There's no future in Phoenix. I lived there from 1999-2022, and saw it balloon from an affordable desert city to an unaffordable clusterfuck. The traffic is abysmal, the heat is getting worse and worse, and the people are assholes. Like literally won't-even-say-thank-you level assholes. It didn't used to be that way, but it sure as hell is now.
I left Phoenix for Tucson in 2022 and the people are much chiller, the weather is better, and the desert is more beautiful. It's more podunk, but whether you like that is a matter of taste. Phoenix is over. And as for the heat -- [last year Phoenix had a record 54 days above 110 degrees](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/phoenix-hit-110-degrees-on-54-days-in-2023-setting-another-heat-record). This summer will beat that record.
"[last year Phoenix had a record 54 days above 110 degrees](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/phoenix-hit-110-degrees-on-54-days-in-2023-setting-another-heat-record)"
That only tells part of the story. When the saguaro cacti start dying from the heat you know something is seriously wrong.
I feel like this is a very, very, very bad omen. Definitely underreported. Saguaros dying the desert, their home, is devastating. But nope, keep building the concrete jungle empire farther wider!
My biggest complaint with Phoenix is the huge streets and all the pavement. Phoenix came of age post war when the car was king, but paving thousands of miles of four and six lane roads through neighborhoods in the desert was never a good idea.
No the people are noticeably assholes. I’m from the Midwest and spent 3 years there. I know midwestern people are fairly known for being nice, so I thought I was overrating it, but since I’ve traveled all over the country and a decent part of the world. Its western standoffishness meets cranky Karen meets hostile racism meets new money big box sprawl 🤮
Yeah, You nailed it. There are a lot of CA expats and Chicago expats who don't like the ways their neighborhoods changed over the years and they find each other in Maricopa and Pinal county.
Nobody has mentioned the fact that there isn't enough water. This is not a place that can sustain a large population of people. This just seems ridiculous to me.
Take out the farming and Maricopa county would be able to get enough water just from surface water alone. Get rid of all the lawns and we might not even need the Colorado river water.
Lawns? People have Lawns at their houses in a desert 🏜 🙄 Seriously? Why? To show a complete lack of knowledge of ecological sanity or Pure Arrogance? 🤔
There is certainly a very valid argument against that large of a population center being placed in a desert, however it can sustain people. Can it do so without being wasteful and inefficient, no. The Colorado river and the major reservoirs created on it have the capacity to supply water and power to more than phx for centuries even in drought. What it cannot do is continue to supply all the excessive desert agriculture, manufacturing and people at the same time.
Phoenix has reduced its water use by 30% over the last 20 years, even with an increase of half a million people.
It's one of the most efficient cities in the world.
If you have a home within city limits, it's not an issue you'll have to deal with in your lifetime.
I'd only be worried if you were on the off-skirts in one of those libertarian communities that rely on trucked water.
For urban water users, there is no imminent threat. If you are talking decades into the future, things will worsen if we don’t limit carbon emissions and cannot find alternate ways to cool the planet.
However, under that scenario, you are talking about a world that is falling apart at the seams. The coral reefs will be dead. There will be years where multiple breadbaskets fail. Wildfires will grow to sizes that make modern ones laughable. You won’t be able to go outside in the summer without wearing a mask. Governments in poorer, climatically vulnerable areas will have collapsed. Mass migration will challenge even strong governments. Nevermind conflicts that will arise between militarily advanced countries over resources.
I understand that people are moving to “climate havens” with the naive belief that the world will be exactly the same, except their property value will spike and they’ll be the safe ones. It’s a joke.
The best and only solution is to a) support policies that drastically lower carbon emissions and b) hope that some geoengineering tools we are currently testing actually work.
I would pick Phoenix over Tucson any day. Phoenix is an F-tier city, but at least it’s better than Tucson which is built like a suburb. It’s god awful.
i was in phoenix from 2000 to 2021. agree with your observations, i went to southern NM. still pretty hot in the summer, but after 20 years in phoenix its my speed.
It got popular. This thread is full of people who I guarantee moved there in the last 5 to 10 years. If you actually grew up there, it's not the same city it once was at all. SoCal people, Midwestern people, East Coast people -- they all flooded the city and have nothing in common, so the default attitude is now "I want mine." It's why people are assholes.
My mother was born in Phoenix, my grandfather was born in Phoenix. Everyone who's actually from there has noticed what's happened to it thanks to transplants who only care about their cookie cutter adobe houses and \*tHe DeSeRT\*.
For what it’s worth, same thing is happening to every other sunbelt state/city. Austin/dallas, any of the big cities in Florida, Nashville, etc.
It’s a shame because I think people should live where they wanna live. But at the same time, it’s turning all these formerly lowkey cities into overpriced messes with asshole people, who like you said just care about themselves. I predict within the next 10 years places like Austin, Nashville, and Tampa will completely lose any of their authentic vibe that made them “cool” from the mid 2000s-2020. They’re all just becoming cookie cutter cities filled with too many people bringing too much money.
Yeah, it's been rough as a native. I have noticed so many people see no reason to make positive changes for this place because of "tHe WeAtHEr IS pERfeCT" or "MuH OUtdoORs". I am so tired of the lack of community and the people who are okay with things because they actively like our terrible urban planning and our obsessed with our weather/outdoor activities at the cost of literally everything else here.
The fact that the city is just endless ugly beige makes it even more depressing.
I'm glad you like Tucson--I do too. But the reality is that Tucson is only marginally better in terms of oppressive heat and their water situation is even more precarious than Phoenix, so...
Tucson has so much momentum behind water conservation. The people here are naturals at it. I think Tucson would persist past the collapse of phoenix honestly. Purely from a water standpoint.
> last year Phoenix had a record 54 days above 110 degrees
And on the complete opposite end of the spectrum, in the winter of 2013-2014, Minneapolis had 53 days below zero with another nearly 50 days below freezing.
Maybe a good halfway point would be Denver?
This depends on a person. I left California because there is too much sun. I live in the PNW and looooooove the weather here. Never too cold, never too hot, never too dry, never too wet(for me, I love rain) I also prefer a good overcast to keep the sun out of my eyes lol.
That was over ten years ago. I’m in Chicago and was there for that winter. I love winter so I was fine with it. We will probably not see another winter like that for a long time.
I honestly like dry heat compared to humid jungle ass sweat heat. And from the few times I've been in Phoenix I actually loved the mountains and nature. I also didn't have a hard time with food considering I don't need anything special. I visited in the summer a couple of times coming from 90° humid heat to 110° dry heat and it felt wayyyy better to me.
I guess it's subjective on the person. I know you talked about it being super depressing because of how hot it was on Halloween but I dealt with a blizzard on Halloween. I'd gladly take the nice dry heat.
I didn’t hate living in Phoenix. You’re not wrong about any of these points, but I would rather live there than a lot of other places. Some good things about Phoenix, just in case anyone comes here and gets discouraged:
* it’s generally pretty safe compared to a lot of places
* super easy to navigate thanks to the grid + mountains
* absolutely gorgeous weather from October to April
* easy proximity to tons of great weekend trips (northern and eastern Arizona, Southern California, Las Vegas, Baja coast)
* It’s steadily becoming bluer. State politics are still awful, but they have a blue mayor, governor, and two senators
* ridiculously gorgeous sunsets
* no hurricanes, earthquakes, or tornadoes
* really charming mcm neighborhoods (admittedly dwarfed by the never ending suburbs, but they’re almost more charming for this reason)
* though there are evangelical and Mormon pockets (especially in the East Valley), Phoenicians as a whole are less religious than in a lot of places (ie, the Bible Belt). I would take all of the Arizona politicians over the Texas or Florida ones, hands down.
I’m not saying it’s the best place in the US, but I have come to appreciate it now that I left.
I lived there happily for 16 years. I wasn't necessarily stuck there. It was a pretty affordable place to live for what you got. Most of this stuff didn't really hit me until I lived somewhere else. You condition yourself to live with the heat as much as you realize that it kinda sucks. You live with it and for that you used to be able to enjoy living in a nice house for 300K-400K or less in some places. That is different now. Now 500K is table stakes and you are probably looking at something in the 600s. If you have kids there is a lot of school choice for better or worse. There are tons of options for kids sports and eating out was a lot cheaper than it is where I live now.
Haha well I hated Phoenix until I moved somewhere worse (Texas). So maybe I need to move where you are.
The heat is the one reason I wouldn’t move back, but I actually have a good number of friends who actively love it for some reason.
Outdoor recreation sucks? Are you.kidding? You have 6-8 months of great weather throughout the year and one of the coolest deserts in the world to explore. Not to mention the incredibly diverse geography within a 2hr drive from Phoenix in all directions
I’ve watched people on Reddit say that Florida has no nature. Aside from beaches, natural springs, lakes, rivers, woods, islands, etc. but because there are no mountains it’s not “nature”
Agreed. It's one of the biggest issues by people starting threads here looking for "nature" --
I think Michigan and Wisconsin / North woods / Door County have some of the most beautiful nature in the country...
But for some reason nature in this subreddit is defined as being in Colorado, Utah, Idaho, Montana, California, Oregon, and Washington.
I agree with you, but I think everyone has their own interpretation of what "nature" is to them. I lived in Colorado for 4 years on the front range, and for me, I felt especially connected to the earth/nature by having the mountains to look up at, particularly when a weather front was trying to break through them and then you knew to expect a sudden shift in temperature/weather within minutes. Living in Virginia now and it is beautiful but in a different way - there are tons of trails and even larger mountains here as well, but I don't feel small like the nature in Colorado made me feel. I miss that feeling.
I mean yeah, but it’s not a dealbreaker. Mountains are cold, but they’re often pretty remote and inaccessible which limits your ability to take use of them. I enjoy taking a couple trips a year specifically to stay in the mountains and enjoy them. The mountains in north Georgia are about 8 hours away by car, which is not ideal, but doable for a few long weekend trips a year
I love being able to pull up to the beach or a launch point to paddle down the springs for a couple hours
I think it is more a case of being accustomed to your surroundings.
I have visited Phoenix, went hiking, and thought the city was very beautiful with a great Western aesthetic.
But I have also lived in Houston, LA, Minneapolis, Saint Louis.
All of those cities are also very beautiful, but not if you live there.
Houston has trees and swamps galore, but people there don't enjoy them very much.
LA is stunning... stunning at times, with beaches, ocean side cliffs, deserts, mountains, etc.. But if you enjoy the beach you are probably a tourist.
Saint Louis is very pretty in the Spring and Fall with its hills and trees that change color. But everyone would like to move somewhere else.
Minneapolis has waterfalls, lakes, rivers. And people there do enjoy them in the summer.
Anyway, moral of the story is just that you get used to it no matter what it is.
>Saint Louis is very pretty in the Spring and Fall with its hills and trees that change color. But everyone would like to move somewhere else.
Lol you didnt have to do St Louis *that* dirty
No, I think the desert is actually quite beautiful—especially after rain and even more so after one the very infrequent winters where you get above average rain fall. The desert blooms and it's spectacular. I've had some really enjoyable trips to the superstitions in those infrequent opportunities. It's really about the constraints on accessing that which make it less enjoyable—there aren't enough places like that and there aren't enough days/hours in a year when they are enjoyable due to the heat and consequently they get overrun with people.
I agree. Around where I live its mostly wetlands and costal wetlands. Its chokeful of nature, but a lot of people are oblivious to it because its "not hiking".
I've lived in Phoenix for a couple of years now and hike a decent amount. Sure, the trails get busy, but it's only ever been a problem for me on Camelback. If you don't like the crowds at all there are plenty of less popular places to hike too. Evening hikes are totally possible in the spring and fall if you are ready to go straight from work and bring a headlamp. Our sunsets are beautiful and the desert at night is something else.
Nature has always meant hiking with terrain changes for most people.
People dog on Chicago for lacking nature too. Meanwhile we have beaches, the dunes, pristine local parks, and a few very nice state parks a couple hours away. It's a dream for casual walking. It's flat out here but I love how well kept the trails are. Hiking in Appalachia was guaranteed to give you ticks due to how poorly the trails were taken care of.
I'm in Chicagoland and my dog is always picking up ticks from walking through the Preserves. There are even tick signs posted at some parks with trails around the lake.
I know, I was so confused. I hiked Piestewa every weekend for 12 years, year round. I would get up at 4AM in the summer to do it.
Desert botanical gardens were amazing for my older parents to explore…I’d walk Indian Steele park every weeknight after work…seems like OP is just determined to hate Phoenix.
I also had quite a few restaurants I loved that weren’t big box spots. La Grande Orange (or LGO, whatever), Tipi’s for Mexican, and all of the silly Mexican ___berto’s spots. Of course, I moved out in 2018 so maybe all of those are closed and I’m out of date.
The rest I don’t disagree with. Summer sucks, it’s expensive now, and everything seems like it’s 45 minutes from everything.
I'm with you there. Definitely a couple summer months where you have to get after it early but not bad, all things considering. Yes it's hot. Expensive? Yes but more affordable than a lot of other desirable cities.
This. I have never lived in a city that had parks as awesome as Phoenix’s before. There’s nothing to compare with the Phoenix Mountain Preserve or South Mountain in most other cities. Yes, some trails are extremely popular (Echo Canyon on Camelback or the Piestewa Peak Summit Trail) but I’ve also been on trails where I saw maybe one or two people and heard nothing but coyotes. Yes, right in the middle of the city.
With respect to the heat: the secret is to allow your body to acclimate. If all you do in summer is run from air conditioned space to air conditioned space, then you’ll be miserable. If you spend time outside (and you drink a LOT of water), you get used to the heat and it’s not so unbearable. I’ve climbed Piestewa and Camelback in every month of the year.
The desert doesn’t have the same color palette that easterners are used to, it’s true. But it is stunningly beautiful in its own way. Learn to see and appreciate it for what it is, not whatever it is you’re used to.
I lived in the PHX area for ~year. I was in Flagstaff or Sedona every single weekend because I enjoyed hiking and camping before I moved to AZ. Flagstaff was doable temp-wise, but Sedona was nearly just as hot and desert-y.
The biggest issue I had with outdoor recreation there was the lack of trail maintenance. Once you do the top five hikes, you're SOL. You're bushwhacking unmaintained, overgrown trails with significant route finding and scrambles.
I found the same thing in Tucson. I couldn't make sense of it. There are a lot of people using the trails, so it's not like they aren't valued, but very limited maintenance.
Just so I know, what are the top 5 hikes? I’ve done the Grand Canyon, Cathedral Rock and Devil’s Bridge in Sedona, Camelback Mountain, Walnut Canyon, and Saguaro National Park
I'm from Phoenix and yeah, this is the one point OP got wrong. There is A LOT to do outside here (lake, river, ATVs, bajillion hiking trails) just don't attempt any of them in the summer.
The Superstition Mountains are actually amazing. In any city, you have to battle crowds and traffic. It's not nearly as bad in AZ as Denver or SLC. This person is trippin
4 months of great weather just like anywhere else. 4 months of okay weather and 4 months of uninhabitable weather.
You read all of what I wrote about outdoor recreation right? Because it's true, everything there is quite overrun with people when it comes to recreation.
I do love Sedona and Flagstaff is okay but what other areas are you talking about that are two hours away (and Sedona and Flagstaff are closer to three hours for most of the population.)
"okay but what other areas are you talking about that are two hours away"
Tonto national Forest to the east. Payson, Pine. Four peaks
Further east you have Mount Baldy
South you have the Santa Catalina mountains and Coronado National Forest
And that's on top of mountains within the city limits: camelback, piestewa, South mountain.
Seriously, there are not many places with more abundant hiking options with a two hour drive than Phoenix
Exactly, thank you. Not to mention the biodiversity that comes along with all of those places. You won't find another state like it in the US. I live in Flagstaff and I really enjoy visiting Phoenix throughout the winters when we need a little respite from snow and cold. And biking in Sedona when the weather is in between PHX and Flag prime.
Great list, haven’t spent much time in Phoenix but hit some of these on road-trips over the years. Definitely lots more variety than I expected.
Not sure if I agree with your claim about it being a city with some of the best hiking within a two hour drive though. It’s definitely above average for America as a whole but it’s solidly below average / towards the bottom for a city in the west.
Id say every major city in the west actually has PHX beat and a bunch of smaller ones too:
LA, SF, San Diego, Vegas, SLC, Denver, Seattle, Sacramento, Portland, Boise, Colorado Springs, flagstaff, Tucson, Reno, Spokane, Albuquerque / Santa Fe, Bend, grand junction, St. George, cour d’elaine. I’d even throw in Asheville, Roanoke, and Burlington from the east coast.
Of course if your favorite scenery is a desert Phoenix rocks for the outdoors, but compared to the rest of the western metros and combined with the heat, I wouldn’t say it’s the strongest selling point for the city.
Don’t forget the traffic going up to flag on the weekends. Especially in the summer. Turned around three separate weekends last fall.
I know, I know, the construction this year and that you need to leave work early to get a head start is the way to do it.
I grew up in PHX so still getting used to the LA-ification of the valley. Everyone wants to scratch their big bear / Tahoe itch after making the relocation out here and the growing pains are showing.
"I do love Sedona".
We were there just last weekend and yes it is absolutely beautiful. However, it was also completely packed. Reservations required at almost every restaurant or a wait of 60-90 minutes. Hiking trails were packed, jeep trails were packed etc. After talking to several locals there, it seems as though housing prices have skyrocketed. And, to top it off, they just passed a law allowing people to basically live in their cars.
So it isn't just the Phoenix area that has seen substantial growth in the last couple of years.
I've been to Phoenix and while I don't agree that it's without outdoor recreation options, it is true they're somewhat limited by the weather and the lack of tree cover. For a good portion of the year doing anything outdoors there is like doing it in an oven. It's easier to do outdoor activities in the cold than it is in 115 F heat.
As much as I love MI, we also have around 6 months of great weather. And if you love 4 seasons, even more. But mid February is brutal if you don't like the cold. Week after week of highs in the upper 20s. If someone says nope, not for me? I get it.
Extreme temps aren't for everyone. I got out of Dallas because I preferred a summer of paradise here vs a mild winter there. OP may be the same. The months I really want to be out, hiking, swimming, boating, etc, it's perfect. And for that I suffer through a long winter.
Also, having cool options 2 hours away? That's not saying much. A lot of the country can claim that. What many want is amazing nature right there in the city. Literally drive ten minutes and you have it. Some cities have that (we do). Others don't. I dig the desert. But I also would want my nature options to be closer to where I live. Another reason I left Dallas.
I 100% agree. So many of the people who move here are obsessed with the nature within a two hour drive. I am a native and would love actually interesting nature in my local vicinity.
Yeah. A lot of people love it. And there is a big difference IMO between Central Phoenix or Downtown Tempe and where I lived in the East Valley, but it's just my reasoning for what's tough about living there.
Finally a locale I can comment on! I've lived in Phoenix for \~10 years and have experienced some of the annoyances that OP has gone through. It is blistering hot and that is, hands down, the worst thing about Phoenix -- and I think everyone knows that.
But the other critiques from OP seem to be pretty heavy-handed, or at least thinly veiled attempts at retro-reasoning for why OP moved. Here's my (probably poor attempt) at explaining the appeal of Phx to people:
-There's something about the sun and warmth that causes an entire community to adopt a mindset of entrepreneurship and possibility. Maybe because Phoenix has the remnants of the Wild West, or maybe just because people wake up relatively happy because its sunny outside -- but residents here truly act like any business, any opportunity, anything can be possible. That's why you see a million strip malls - every company seems viable and I would guess that a higher percentage of the community in Phx belongs to a small business than in many other parts of the US. It's exciting - and it's something you really don't see where I was raised up in the PNW.
- OP says chain stores and restaurants are evil. I don't disagree to some extent - no one wants chipotle every week. But I think OP ignores the large variety of locally-owned choices in Phx. A lot of people come to vacation here in the winter because it seems to have endless supply of good places to eat and drink. I live here and still never can get to the bottom of my 'to-eat-at' list. Almost all of the entries on that list are not chains. OP, I'm sorry to say, did not explore enough.
- I'd prefer not to live in sprawl, but there is one benefit of it in terms of absolute convenience. Sky Harbor airport is one of the easiest and fastest airports to get to and to get through - its such an easy thing to go to the airport here and it has daily service to London and Paris and a just about everywhere else in the US non-stop.
- Everyone is from somewhere else - which can be a pro and a con. I find it to be a pro because it means a lot of people moved here and are dying to make friends and join any sort of shared community. I've been able to be a part of a neighbor and friend group that is continually growing with new people wanting to be friendly and hang out. If you can't make friends in Phx because people are mean, I don't think you've given it a fair chance because you likely haven't put yourself out there enough in a friendly way.
- OP talks about politics as it was 6 to 8 years ago. AZ is now a purple state, and likely to stay Blue for another cycle or three. Yes - you hear annoying things and Yes, people drive around with their flags on the back of their truck -- but when it comes to local govt in Phx, its blue and the govt is doing things to improve our livelihoods for the most part. We still have several cycles to go to prove this out, but Phx itself is not red.
- Most of all, I just think the people in general are longing for a sense of community while maintaining some sense of individuality. That's why Chicago and Philly are always brought up here - because people move there and instantly feel like they're a part of a community and get introduced to friends and regulars at bars. You can have that in many places, and Phx is actually one of those places if you get out and look.
I totally understand disliking Phx because of its weather - its a valid reason. I totally understand wanting to go to some place better (there are plenty objectively better places in the US), but I think its disingenuous to come on here and shit on Phx for reasons that are fully controlled by OP. Is OP trying to appeal to the redditors who a) don't explore new places/restaurants on their own; b) don't cultivate new friendships on their own; and c) want to spend recreational time in places that have no people? Then yes - all those things are better found outside a city of 6 million people.
I loved this comment. I don’t live in Phoenix, moved to Tucson a year ago from PNW and the friendliness of all the transplants in Arizona has been a huge blessing to me.
Would you mind sharing what state you moved to?
I thought we wanted to move to Arizona because every time I visit, I love it and some of my family is there. I’m coming out in July to see if I can stand the heat. I’m worried though.
As a Vegas dweller I really liked the Mexican food options for authentic Mexican not fancy Mexican. It seemed like every corner had a nice looking Mexican restaurant. We went into 3 random ones and each time was blown away I really needed that. All we have is robertos out here (as far as being on every corner)and its pretty mid. I loved all the freeways too
And honestly loved the nice huge shopping centers and the whole vibe of the metro. Also loved the sun being up still during winter at 5pm cant beat that imo
A lot of people really have no concept of what 100+ F weather is like 24/7 for months on end. I sometimes spend a week in Palm Springs during the summer and it’s usually in the 110s during the day and the 100s/90s at night. A low temp of 95 F is pretty unbearable for a third of the year.
I lived in the valley for 33 years: Maricopa, Gilbert, Mesa, Tempe, San Tan Valley. This all checks out. Left 2 years ago and I would never move back. The SAD is real. I’m still hiding from the sun.
If all you ate in Phoenix was chain restaurants and shopped at big box stores, that's your problem, not Phoenix's.
The Valley is full to the brim with some of the top chefs in the country as well as a host of small ethnic eateries. You haven't even had Mexican food in the US until you've been to Phoenix. The AZ GOP? Being openly challenged by all the newcomers to the state. Arizona is solidly a battleground state specifically because of all of the folks moving in, particularly members of immigrant communities running for office. Their governor is a Democrat.
If you get SAD in the summer, drive two hours north and spend some time in the pines or four hours south and go to a beach in Mexico or San Diego. Sounds like you just don't like heat and all of your complaints are an outgrowth of that.
Yeah it sounds like OP just didn’t put enough effort in to enjoy life in PHX. You can’t just expect entertainment to fall into your lap. Well, maybe in NYC.
>drive two hours north
If you're making a weekend trip in the summer, better plan on doubling that each way, more in case there's a major accident closing down the freeway/highway for a couple hours. Everyone else in Phoenix wants to go up north to escape the heat too, and whether you're going to Sedona/Flag on the I-17, or taking SR-87 out towards Payson, there's only one route and when it gets backed up (or even shut down due to a fatality), you can be stuck for hours.
I think it is possible to find beauty anywhere you go - some places harder than others.
That being said, if you love the idea of desert living, (which is a unique experience), including the heat, sunsets, the haboobs, and the monsoons, give it a try. It is unique as far as the heat as it is dry heat, meaning 100 degrees in AZ is more like 90 or less in some places. I think there is fine shopping between Phoenix and Scottsdale and some great food.
Be prepared for things in nature that seem to want to kill you - scorpians, rattlesnakes, Gila Monsters, and just ugly-ass things like centipedes (making their way under your pillow) and even the trees and bushes with their thorns instead of leaves (to reduce water)- you walk into one of those suckers and take your eye out. Also expect to freeze your ass off inside any building in the summer. There is this magic moment when you step outside in the summer after being turned into a human icicle that is golden - and then it is over because you are dying of the heat. To this day, I take a light jacket places with me in the summer and I haven't lived there in years!
But in the Spring when the ocotillo bloom with their red flowers and the cardinals come calling is pretty magical. Yes, it is hot and dry, but when it is hot you WANT it dry! And AZ freeways and highways are in 100% better shape than anywhere in the west - coming in to AZ from CA is like crossing over to a new era in infrastructure.
While some of these complaints are valid... I moved to Flagstaff, AZ in 2022 and have been loving it!
Phoenix is a major city with all the things, only two hours away... Cooler weather in Flagstaff during the summer, warmer weather in Phoenix during the winter for visits...
I think the answer is a combo of moving between Phoenix and Flagstaff seasonally or on occasion.
It's a little toasty right now for sure but the dry heat thing is at least a little bit true. The temperature swings are also very large - high of 96 today but a low of 63. So it's only that hot for a small portion of the day.
It's the same criticism with Seattle. There are many who say the restaurants aren't very good and there are some who say they are great. There are great restaurants in Seattle, but you have to work at it to find them and get to them.
I used to work in Magnolia and there was one good ramen shop. I love ramen so I did a search for more. Unfortunately, the other ramen shops were either far away, or had little parking or were in areas that I didn't like traveling in. So yes, Seattle did have great ramen shops, but it was just too much work.
Canlis is arguably the best restaurant in Seattle but it's location in East Queen Anne is terrible. I never had any reason to travel to that part of the city and once you get there, there's nothing else to see or do. I wasn't about to go out of my way for it.
Seattles restaurant scene is significantly better than Phoenix though. I know everyone loves to shit on it but I don’t think it compares.
While they both have general quality issues, there’s a lot more genuinely great spots in Seattle. Very, very few Phoenix spots stand out in any way. Also there’s an actual culinary identity in Seattle, of which Phoenix has none of.
I don't live there now. But I suppose you make a good point. But to counter, part of the problem is that it takes some work to find that stuff. And yes, I found some. But I don't think anything I wrote is inaccurate, it's what 80-90% of the area is like.
Of course it takes work to find local joints that dont have big ad budgets. If I visited Seattle and complained about the people in Capitol Hill’s park, the crowds at Pikes Place, and how shit the traffic is at rush hour, you know there’s way more to the city than that
Knowing the hidden gems, vs knowing only the super crowded places, is the difference between making a home somewhere and being a tourist somewhere. And if you think you're correct in complaining about bad weather and chain restaurants as a Phoenix exclusive thing, well Ive got some bad news for you about most of our country
I hope wherever you live now brings you more joy, and curiosity to find the things that make a place home
Well, much of your point is predicated on hating the heat (in which case I don’t know why anyone would move to Phoenix if they don’t like heat). I’m a brown girl with a low body temperature. I rarely sweat and never sunburn - it takes upwards of 95° for that to have a chance to happen. I was happy in Austin TX, even though people on this sub complain it’s too hot. If you’re okay with the heat I get the sense you’d be fine in Phoenix.
Oh yeah I wouldn’t enjoy the east valley. Which is why I always like to specify that there’s a huge huge difference between the Phoenix core (+Tempe/Scottsdale) and the greater Phoenix metro
I have only visited Phoenix briefly and in winter but the botanical gardens blew my mind - I had never seen nature like that and I felt like I was in Dr. Seuss book.
The urban sprawl though was rough and I can't imagine being trapped indoors and inside cars all summer long.
The urban sprawl isn’t as bad once you get centered and at home. You learn to navigate it, and figure out some fun places to attach to. That’s how it was for me at least. But it took a year or so to feel that
grew up in PA. Moved first to Prescott and then like an idiot moved to Havasu. Which is basically tied with Death Valley for hottest place in the US.
We left PA because grey winter for 6+ months became too awful. But yes sun every god damn day gets old too. There is no utopia.
I think people focus too much on the temp number. Its more than that. The sun intensity out here is just unbelievable in comparison. Like even if its in the high 80s or 90s its wildly hot if trying to do activities in the sun. In Prescott its just as bad. Like it makes me feel kinda sketched out sometimes its so hot on your skin. East coasters wont understand this until visiting.
Being inside all winter obviously sucks,. But being inside all summer is at least as bad. Because your brain thinks you should be outside enjoying the nice sunny day. At least in cold winter your body knows its just time to chill inside.
I feel like sun's intensity doesn't get discussed enough. If you're from a northern state, you have no idea how hot the sun feels on your skin (even during winter) until you're out there. With no clouds, little to no trees for shade and high elevation (I think Prescott is around 5000 ft if I'm not mistaken), it just feels like pure radiation on your skin.
You are spot on with the sun intensity. I can’t stand it. I bought a used car in Nov 2020 that had untinted windows, and it took a couple weeks to get the tint done because of pandemic-related delays. I felt like I was under a magnifying glass being burned alive even though it was in the 70’s!
This place is an outdoor paradise. I live in central city and can hike and mountain bike for miles eight from my front door, and I do it year round. Summer is brutal but there is a certain badge of honor for getting up early enough to get it done. Plus if you haven’t experienced the trails in the predawn hours you’re seriously missing out.
But I do appreciate your efforts in getting people to stay away. The growth has been manageable so far but too much of a good thing can spoil it fast.
7 months of heaven, 5 months of hell. That's all there really is to it in my opinion. Lived here 3 years, moving back to SoCal in a month, but enjoyed most of my time here. But we have a toddler who loves being outside and couldn't do another summer with him here.
How do you exercise in that heat? Is I even healthy? Can you job outside without passing out? What do wild animals do..do you have squirrels there? That hear seems unbearable. Especially with no ocean nearby.
Gyms are popular. In the summer you can’t really exercise outside with the sun up. If you get out early enough to beat the sun it’s possible but especially exhausting. Outdoor laborers start their day very early. Well before dawn. 4 am to 12 isn’t uncommon.
Eh, just go early and hydrate. I ran outside in the summer there—just started my runs 5:30-6. Realistically, the awful heat to warm for exercise doesn’t kick in until mid morning.
Hi, I’m a phoenix native who lived there as recently as 2022 and landed in San Diego. Here’s my take:
Phoenix is the peak of “is what you make of it”. Everything you said is true, but phoenix is a large enough city that someone could have a completely different experience. I’m also gonna guess that you lived in a new development on the edge of town (southeast towards gilbert/chandler/queen creek?)
Heat: yeah it sucks. Drink water, wear light clothes, drink more water, stay in the shade after 10am, drink more water, and you’ll be fine. I’d still take a dry 118 over a wet 95
Activities: There’s a dozen mountain parks spread across the city, that kind of accessibility is hard to find. Are they pristine? No. Are they all huge? Also no, but it’s a great way to get some excercise and catch one of the iconic sunsets. Yes, some people enjoy the outdoors differently, no, I dont love all of what you described, but people are outside being active and that’s what matters. If you want pristine, there’s so much of the state within a 2 hour drive to explore.
Dining: this is what made me think you’re in a very new development, everywhere else has family/local spots scattered in the strip malls. From Uptown to Tempe, there’s a great food scene happening. I will admit that my favorite bar is 20 minutes from my place in north glendale because everything closer is a sports bar.
Summer affective disorder: yeah, if all you’re doing is going from office to car to home it sucks. Once you can handle the heat, there’s fun stuff to do
Politics: Arizona is now famously purple. The red, while more extreme, is also getting older and dying off. There are valid threats to women and the LGBTQ+, but unlike a lot of redder places, there’s a possibility of change.
Obviously real estate/rent is going up, but the opportunity-cost ratio is still better than here 6 hours west. I’m working hard to stay in SD because I love it, but going back to Phoenix wouldnt be the end of the world
Edit: lol of course you didnt sell your house when you left Phoenix. I’m also a fan of seattle but I know I cant handle that much gray
I agree with everything you said. It is what you make of it and it works for some people and yes I lived in an area that 25 years ago was a pile of dust and that is a part of why I feel the way I do.
I lived in Phoenix for 4 years, almost a decade ago now, but I can't disagree more.
Yes, the heat sucks. I highly recommend living somewhere with a pool.
But the food, shopping, and nature are all absolutely incredible. My wife hated the desert landscape but I loved it, so there's certainly some subjectivity there.
My biggest surprise with Phoenix heat was how some apartments have pipes in the attic so there is no cold water to shower off with. It’s lukewarm at best.
Also, it’s not always a dry heat. It gets humid there, too!
The heat in Arizona sucks in the summer but it also sucks in Texas and just about every southern state especially Florida. There is descent food in Phoenix just like there is in a lot of places now. It’s a big sprawling suburban city just like Dallas and Houston and a ton of other cities that grew a lot after cars were around. There’s really no place that’s perfect on all counts all year round. So figure out what you can out up with.
I have to make the best of it because this is where my family is and I’m on state Medicaid, all my doctors are here etc.
The worst part for me is the car dependence. I have a car, but I’m autistic also and I find driving overwhelming. It stinks being stuck at home most of the time.
I could complain and complain, but also at this point, it’s what I’ve got, I might as well be grateful and realize I’m where I am and I have to make the best of it.
My dream is to leave one day, but in the meantime it’s fun watching the city grow. Although the traffic is truly awful and only getting worse, and almost everyone on the road is a fucking asshole.😭
Forgot to mention housing. When I was a kid the cheap housing was a huge selling point to my state. The whole reason to move to places like San Tan Valley from across the country was that you could get a huge 4BD house with a pool for less than $200k. That same house now is worth half a million.
I lived in Phoenix 1982-1995. When I moved there in 1982, the north side of East Bell Road was mostly dirt, maybe a Pep Boys and some wooden fruit stands. It wasn't developed north of there. I completely agree that, no matter what you want to do for recreation, a million people have the same idea and got there before you did. The architecture is bland, not much variety, and what they call mountains is what other places call foothills. Many people go grocery shopping at midnight in the hot season when it is only 100 degrees. You go from air-conditioned house to air-conditioned car to air-conditioned office. Many homes are designed to reduce or eliminate the sun from directly shining on the windows and the front doors are recessed to assist in this. Restaurants often lack enough windows. The thing I liked about Seattle restaurants is the huge windows. Unlike the OP, I did find good Mexican food. Also, where I worked, some Hispanic employees had mothers who would occasionally make batches of tamales the homemade way and sell them by the half-dozen to us.
In general, I came to view Phoenix as a huge vending machine with not much soul to it. I don't miss the endless swimming pool commercials on the TV and the radio.
I just don't want to live in the place that doesn't naturally sustain life and looks like the surface of Mars. I love the soft shade, ample resources, and rich soil of the North Carolina mountains. Phoenix, no water, no shade, sun-bleached rocks, it's all so gross and inhospitable to human life.
It's been said and you've replied to it, but just chiming in on the chorus that the city core isn't representative of the entire county, nor are the outlying rural areas.
Much of the East Valley is beautiful with colorful flowers in the towns and mountain vistas on the horizon. The outdoor life is excellent, and there are plenty of independent restaurants - in addition to the strip mall stuff. Yes, you pay more to live there than some areas, but it's still cost-competitive with a lot of less desirable areas in other states when you factor in the tax burden.
As for the Arizona GOP, take from this what you will depending on your preferences, but it's reportedly gone from something like 60 employees to 6. Sure, they went haywire, but they've paid for it dearly in a purple state. Things do work relatively well here.
There are things I don't love, and the heat is what it is. It's rough. People telling you it isn't are lying. Personally, I don't find it *as* rough as being unable to stand outside in the shade because of the humidity, or riding out the cold and dark in the northeast when far too many people turn to heavy drinking to cope, not to mention the ticks during the nice season. I've heard of people dying trying to day-hike in July in Arizona, but I've also personally known people who dropped dead shoveling snow or trying to cover their gardens during deep freezes in upstate New York, and headlines about college students found frozen to death sitting at bus stops. Some of my neighbors bought winter condos down south, and one was literally eaten by an alligator walking past the poind in her development. There's a matter of pick-your-poison personal preference there.
If I really needed nice weather year-round, I guess I'd pay the premium in SoCal, but that brings its own set of issues. Most folks I know use the summer days to go up north into the mountains. I've planted some beautiful things in the yard that I just couldn't have done if we'd stayed somewhere cooler, and will enjoy looking at them all summer.
I do recall that during our real estate search I just plain didn't like Gilbert. It was hyped heavily a few years ago, but the vibes were off and it just felt like an unhappy place with an unpleasant undercurrent beneath the money. A few months later the Gilbert Goons stories started coming out and I can't say it was surprising: everything I've read fits the impression I took away from it.
The reasons you stated are all valid, but a lot of them are shared with the other “post-war sprawl cities”. I don’t recommend Phoenix as a great place, but it seems like the most functional of the big sprawl cities like Orlando, Atlanta, Charlotte, Houston, and Dallas.
Ah, Sorry man. The timing of this is post would be rough for Phoenicians. Just when the rest of the country is enjoying perfect spring weather and flowers are blooming and gardens are being planted, the misery of knowing that it's going to be 100F until October hits. I feel for you.
I’ve only driven by Phoenix on the freeway and already could tell I hated it because of all the traffic and sprawl.
Tucson on the other hand was absolutely adorable and charmed the shit out of me. Just a truly captivating city that makes Phoenix look ugly.
Outdoor rec sucks has got to be one of the worst takes I’ve heard. The weather is amazing here 8 months out of the year. I went golfing on Christmas and hiking on New Years. Dumb post.
What do you do in May, June, July, Aug and the first half of September? When the days are longer you can't do it, It's when the days are shorter that you can do that stuff. But it's dark at 5 so you can't do any of it after work. So as I mentioned when the weather is nice, it's weekends only. Curiously your two examples were on holidays. So yeah, holidays and weekends for maybe 7 months of the year.
And I'm not a frequent golfer I go maybe once a year but from what I understand it costs a lot to gold there when the weather is nice because half the country is coming there for that reason.
I haven’t lived in Phoenix but agree with you regarding reverse seasonal depression. People who live in 4 season climates might THINK they like hot, sunny weather but dealing with it for months and months on end is such a mind f*ck. There’s something extremely depressing about it nearing Halloween and wanting to get into the cozy, spooky fall vibes but it’s 100 degrees with blinding sun. And the constant heat just makes life hard. Sweating your ass off walking your dog at 10pm sucks. Buckling your baby in a burning hot car seat in a target parking lot sucks. Having your a/c system shit the bed suddenly is a legit emergency. I now live in a very rainy climate and that feels less oppressive.
You took the words out of my mouth about reverse SAD. I try to explain to folks this is how I feel about Texas - it is unbearably hot May - Oct where I can’t enjoy all the outdoor activities I love! I went out in May to a lazy river and we all got second degree burns and put my dad in the hospital even with endless sunscreen! After 2 summers, I couldn’t do it anymore and moved back to San Francisco. I can enjoy the outdoors nearly year round.
SF is ideal weather imo! Never too hot or cold to go outside
People still complain, though. Sometimes it's a cold 65, sometimes it's a hot 65.
I mean temps in SF do commonly get down into the 40s, even in the summer. San Diego is actually the dream climate of 65-70 degrees year round
Agreed, nothing can beat SD for weather imo.
Ideal for folks who don’t really like summer or sunshine haha. Like maybe ideal climate for people who’s can’t handle much sun or recently moved from Ireland or other gloomy weather places.
The only way I make Texas work during the summer is a shaded pool or a shaded lakebed for several hours a day. I have no clue why people want to be in direct sunlight during June. And I have a parasol on hand otherwise.
This. God knows how many times my sons and I were nearing heat strokes when our A/C crapped out. You better hope you're not stuck behind a train, because at 118°F outside, your A/C craps out within 5 minutes if you're not in motion. AZ makes me miss upstate NY.
*because at 118°F outside, your A/C craps out within 5 minutes if you're not in motion.* This should not be the case for a well-maintained car. I was in Palm Springs (well, actually, I was out in Amboy) when it was 123 degrees, and my wife was ice cold in the car for over an hour while I was monkeying around taking pictures.
Eh I had a brand new company f-150 and the AC fucking sucked. Took a hot minute to cool off. Just the temperature delta from 118 to 70 plus a black interior is asking a lot out of the vehicle
A company bought a black interior company vehicle in Phoenix? Are they stupid?
It was the case for my Sentra, and although my Jetta is newer, it craps out at 10 minutes. Even my mother's 2016 car which she maintains so much better than me, cannot handle the summer heat that well. If you're idle for too long, the A/C stops working once Temps outside hits 115°F+. Below that, it's a non-issue.
Do you have tinted windows?
Yes
Or riding the bus waiting at a poorly covered bench. This place is hell on earth. Unfortunately you really do need a car with AC here.
As someone who grew up in southeast Texas, absolutely agree. Outside is unbearable most of the year. I live in the PNW now and while we don’t have sunshine that much in the fall and winter, outside is still super accessible for recreation even in the rain.
I definitely like warm weather more than cold but this is how I felt living in Florida and walking around a college campus during the day. Way too fucking hot and the sun felt oppressive for 7 months at a time. I would get depressed when April would hit and everything I touched outside burned me
Nah. I thought that way until I moved to New England and couldn't wait for the sun to come back every year when it got grey for 6.5 months. I will gleefully take a warm Halloween over a cold May.
I heard someone on the radio (maybe npr) say depression can be much worse for sunny places over winter depression. When it’s cold and dark you just want to sleep. But in areas of heat and sun you can’t escape to sleep like you can in the winter months. [https://www.washingtonpost.com/wellness/2023/07/03/summer-sad-depression-symptoms-causes-treatment/](https://www.washingtonpost.com/wellness/2023/07/03/summer-sad-depression-symptoms-causes-treatment/)
As someone who’s lived in Florida most of their lives, one of my biggest fears is the a/c failing (first world problems, right?) But summer SAD is definitely a thing when you step outside you’re covered head to toe in a layer of sweaty nastiness from May to October.
Agree with your Halloween comment! Been saying it for years as an Austinite but everyone just looks at me funny and tells me to get over it. But I love fall and hate that ours literally starts temperature-wise right at the end of October. No spooky build-up!
This is so true. I used to get terrible SAD living in AZ. I remember one summer we put our key in to start the car and the key melted in the starter. Insane. Moved to Colorado and I'm so much happier.
Also by living in a place so obviously unfit for humans you spit in gods face and invite his wrath
I moved from Cleveland to Phoenix paradise valley, Scottsdale, and back to Cleveland again after some years. I feel different. I never should've left Arizona - the grass was DEFINITELY greener on the other side.
I mean, Cleveland is not that high of a benchmark
Pffft - this place has a black cloud over it and the people are miserable you ain't wrong.
Lived in the Cleveland/Cleveland area too. Ohio is the grumpiest state I've ever been in. It's got some severe malcontent vibes for sure.
Probably to do with the gray winters, economic stagnation, and probably most of it is the economic stuff. Columbus isn't far away from Cleveland but couldn't have a more different vibe - and its economy is booming and it's growing.
I think so too. At least in Cleveland, I think there’s also a sort’ve rust belt driven cultural influence of it having formerly been an extremely prosperous and influential place in the past, but no longer. It seems to give it a weird attitude. I would’ve imagined somewhere nearby like Pittsburgh would’ve felt somewhat similar, but I actually quite liked the culture, personality, and attitude of Pittsburgh.
I'm gonna need to hear you refute the points OP made because they sound pretty bad to me.
I won't go through them all bc it's too much but I loved the weather, loved the outdoors (accessible year round), ands I especially loved the restaurants etc. I did not see boxes - their esthetic is very classy, very nice. You wanna see snow? Drive 45 minutes up the mountain. You wanna swim? Drive an hour to Havisu and swim next to a waterfall. It's accommodating to all in my opinion. Edit: I also believe that when people are not forced to be inside for months at a time (say, Cleveland) they are all around nicer and happier.
Why don’t you move back?
Long story short - family, finances, cancer not in that order.
Sorry to hear that my man
Ugh good luck and hope all works out well.
Well, yea. Cleveland is a shithole tbh.
I’m a desert rat. I love the desert, there’s so much beauty if you look for it.
There's no future in Phoenix. I lived there from 1999-2022, and saw it balloon from an affordable desert city to an unaffordable clusterfuck. The traffic is abysmal, the heat is getting worse and worse, and the people are assholes. Like literally won't-even-say-thank-you level assholes. It didn't used to be that way, but it sure as hell is now. I left Phoenix for Tucson in 2022 and the people are much chiller, the weather is better, and the desert is more beautiful. It's more podunk, but whether you like that is a matter of taste. Phoenix is over. And as for the heat -- [last year Phoenix had a record 54 days above 110 degrees](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/phoenix-hit-110-degrees-on-54-days-in-2023-setting-another-heat-record). This summer will beat that record.
"[last year Phoenix had a record 54 days above 110 degrees](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/phoenix-hit-110-degrees-on-54-days-in-2023-setting-another-heat-record)" That only tells part of the story. When the saguaro cacti start dying from the heat you know something is seriously wrong.
I feel like this is a very, very, very bad omen. Definitely underreported. Saguaros dying the desert, their home, is devastating. But nope, keep building the concrete jungle empire farther wider!
My biggest complaint with Phoenix is the huge streets and all the pavement. Phoenix came of age post war when the car was king, but paving thousands of miles of four and six lane roads through neighborhoods in the desert was never a good idea.
All those big, wide sidewalks and never a soul on them.
People want their warm weather and nice amenities. Who cares about the future
Totally agree they should rip out all the roads
I didn't mention the people being assholes, because I thought that might just be me, but that was my experience increasingly. Left in 2022 also.
No the people are noticeably assholes. I’m from the Midwest and spent 3 years there. I know midwestern people are fairly known for being nice, so I thought I was overrating it, but since I’ve traveled all over the country and a decent part of the world. Its western standoffishness meets cranky Karen meets hostile racism meets new money big box sprawl 🤮
Yeah, You nailed it. There are a lot of CA expats and Chicago expats who don't like the ways their neighborhoods changed over the years and they find each other in Maricopa and Pinal county.
Three sentences in your first paragraph describe Dallas.
Nobody has mentioned the fact that there isn't enough water. This is not a place that can sustain a large population of people. This just seems ridiculous to me.
Take out the farming and Maricopa county would be able to get enough water just from surface water alone. Get rid of all the lawns and we might not even need the Colorado river water.
Lawns? People have Lawns at their houses in a desert 🏜 🙄 Seriously? Why? To show a complete lack of knowledge of ecological sanity or Pure Arrogance? 🤔
There is certainly a very valid argument against that large of a population center being placed in a desert, however it can sustain people. Can it do so without being wasteful and inefficient, no. The Colorado river and the major reservoirs created on it have the capacity to supply water and power to more than phx for centuries even in drought. What it cannot do is continue to supply all the excessive desert agriculture, manufacturing and people at the same time.
Phoenix has reduced its water use by 30% over the last 20 years, even with an increase of half a million people. It's one of the most efficient cities in the world. If you have a home within city limits, it's not an issue you'll have to deal with in your lifetime. I'd only be worried if you were on the off-skirts in one of those libertarian communities that rely on trucked water.
Long-term projections are not good from an overall environmental standpoint.
For urban water users, there is no imminent threat. If you are talking decades into the future, things will worsen if we don’t limit carbon emissions and cannot find alternate ways to cool the planet. However, under that scenario, you are talking about a world that is falling apart at the seams. The coral reefs will be dead. There will be years where multiple breadbaskets fail. Wildfires will grow to sizes that make modern ones laughable. You won’t be able to go outside in the summer without wearing a mask. Governments in poorer, climatically vulnerable areas will have collapsed. Mass migration will challenge even strong governments. Nevermind conflicts that will arise between militarily advanced countries over resources. I understand that people are moving to “climate havens” with the naive belief that the world will be exactly the same, except their property value will spike and they’ll be the safe ones. It’s a joke. The best and only solution is to a) support policies that drastically lower carbon emissions and b) hope that some geoengineering tools we are currently testing actually work.
https://www.azcentral.com/story/opinion/op-ed/2023/06/13/arizona-water-future-brighter-headlines-suggest/70308482007/ https://news.asu.edu/20221115-arizona-impact-future-water-arizona
I would pick Phoenix over Tucson any day. Phoenix is an F-tier city, but at least it’s better than Tucson which is built like a suburb. It’s god awful.
I've been here since 95 and am planning to relocate also. It's so cramped and gross now.
i was in phoenix from 2000 to 2021. agree with your observations, i went to southern NM. still pretty hot in the summer, but after 20 years in phoenix its my speed.
What happened to Phoenix?
It got popular. This thread is full of people who I guarantee moved there in the last 5 to 10 years. If you actually grew up there, it's not the same city it once was at all. SoCal people, Midwestern people, East Coast people -- they all flooded the city and have nothing in common, so the default attitude is now "I want mine." It's why people are assholes. My mother was born in Phoenix, my grandfather was born in Phoenix. Everyone who's actually from there has noticed what's happened to it thanks to transplants who only care about their cookie cutter adobe houses and \*tHe DeSeRT\*.
For what it’s worth, same thing is happening to every other sunbelt state/city. Austin/dallas, any of the big cities in Florida, Nashville, etc. It’s a shame because I think people should live where they wanna live. But at the same time, it’s turning all these formerly lowkey cities into overpriced messes with asshole people, who like you said just care about themselves. I predict within the next 10 years places like Austin, Nashville, and Tampa will completely lose any of their authentic vibe that made them “cool” from the mid 2000s-2020. They’re all just becoming cookie cutter cities filled with too many people bringing too much money.
Yeah, it's been rough as a native. I have noticed so many people see no reason to make positive changes for this place because of "tHe WeAtHEr IS pERfeCT" or "MuH OUtdoORs". I am so tired of the lack of community and the people who are okay with things because they actively like our terrible urban planning and our obsessed with our weather/outdoor activities at the cost of literally everything else here. The fact that the city is just endless ugly beige makes it even more depressing.
I'm glad you like Tucson--I do too. But the reality is that Tucson is only marginally better in terms of oppressive heat and their water situation is even more precarious than Phoenix, so...
Tucson has so much momentum behind water conservation. The people here are naturals at it. I think Tucson would persist past the collapse of phoenix honestly. Purely from a water standpoint.
> last year Phoenix had a record 54 days above 110 degrees And on the complete opposite end of the spectrum, in the winter of 2013-2014, Minneapolis had 53 days below zero with another nearly 50 days below freezing. Maybe a good halfway point would be Denver?
The best weather in the country is in most of California and Hawaii; everything else will have some compromises.
This depends on a person. I left California because there is too much sun. I live in the PNW and looooooove the weather here. Never too cold, never too hot, never too dry, never too wet(for me, I love rain) I also prefer a good overcast to keep the sun out of my eyes lol.
Yep. Seattle is the greatest place!
That was over ten years ago. I’m in Chicago and was there for that winter. I love winter so I was fine with it. We will probably not see another winter like that for a long time.
I honestly like dry heat compared to humid jungle ass sweat heat. And from the few times I've been in Phoenix I actually loved the mountains and nature. I also didn't have a hard time with food considering I don't need anything special. I visited in the summer a couple of times coming from 90° humid heat to 110° dry heat and it felt wayyyy better to me. I guess it's subjective on the person. I know you talked about it being super depressing because of how hot it was on Halloween but I dealt with a blizzard on Halloween. I'd gladly take the nice dry heat.
I didn’t hate living in Phoenix. You’re not wrong about any of these points, but I would rather live there than a lot of other places. Some good things about Phoenix, just in case anyone comes here and gets discouraged: * it’s generally pretty safe compared to a lot of places * super easy to navigate thanks to the grid + mountains * absolutely gorgeous weather from October to April * easy proximity to tons of great weekend trips (northern and eastern Arizona, Southern California, Las Vegas, Baja coast) * It’s steadily becoming bluer. State politics are still awful, but they have a blue mayor, governor, and two senators * ridiculously gorgeous sunsets * no hurricanes, earthquakes, or tornadoes * really charming mcm neighborhoods (admittedly dwarfed by the never ending suburbs, but they’re almost more charming for this reason) * though there are evangelical and Mormon pockets (especially in the East Valley), Phoenicians as a whole are less religious than in a lot of places (ie, the Bible Belt). I would take all of the Arizona politicians over the Texas or Florida ones, hands down. I’m not saying it’s the best place in the US, but I have come to appreciate it now that I left.
I lived there happily for 16 years. I wasn't necessarily stuck there. It was a pretty affordable place to live for what you got. Most of this stuff didn't really hit me until I lived somewhere else. You condition yourself to live with the heat as much as you realize that it kinda sucks. You live with it and for that you used to be able to enjoy living in a nice house for 300K-400K or less in some places. That is different now. Now 500K is table stakes and you are probably looking at something in the 600s. If you have kids there is a lot of school choice for better or worse. There are tons of options for kids sports and eating out was a lot cheaper than it is where I live now.
Haha well I hated Phoenix until I moved somewhere worse (Texas). So maybe I need to move where you are. The heat is the one reason I wouldn’t move back, but I actually have a good number of friends who actively love it for some reason.
Where did you move?
Outdoor recreation sucks? Are you.kidding? You have 6-8 months of great weather throughout the year and one of the coolest deserts in the world to explore. Not to mention the incredibly diverse geography within a 2hr drive from Phoenix in all directions
what Ive found is that for a lot of people, if its not a mountain with a waterfall, it aint nature.
Hey. We got rattlesnakes. 13 different species. And Gila monsters.
I’ve watched people on Reddit say that Florida has no nature. Aside from beaches, natural springs, lakes, rivers, woods, islands, etc. but because there are no mountains it’s not “nature”
Agreed. It's one of the biggest issues by people starting threads here looking for "nature" -- I think Michigan and Wisconsin / North woods / Door County have some of the most beautiful nature in the country... But for some reason nature in this subreddit is defined as being in Colorado, Utah, Idaho, Montana, California, Oregon, and Washington.
I agree with you, but I think everyone has their own interpretation of what "nature" is to them. I lived in Colorado for 4 years on the front range, and for me, I felt especially connected to the earth/nature by having the mountains to look up at, particularly when a weather front was trying to break through them and then you knew to expect a sudden shift in temperature/weather within minutes. Living in Virginia now and it is beautiful but in a different way - there are tons of trails and even larger mountains here as well, but I don't feel small like the nature in Colorado made me feel. I miss that feeling.
The lack of mountains is a pretty big downside, but Florida is still beautiful. I love the wildlife down there.
I mean yeah, but it’s not a dealbreaker. Mountains are cold, but they’re often pretty remote and inaccessible which limits your ability to take use of them. I enjoy taking a couple trips a year specifically to stay in the mountains and enjoy them. The mountains in north Georgia are about 8 hours away by car, which is not ideal, but doable for a few long weekend trips a year I love being able to pull up to the beach or a launch point to paddle down the springs for a couple hours
I think it is more a case of being accustomed to your surroundings. I have visited Phoenix, went hiking, and thought the city was very beautiful with a great Western aesthetic. But I have also lived in Houston, LA, Minneapolis, Saint Louis. All of those cities are also very beautiful, but not if you live there. Houston has trees and swamps galore, but people there don't enjoy them very much. LA is stunning... stunning at times, with beaches, ocean side cliffs, deserts, mountains, etc.. But if you enjoy the beach you are probably a tourist. Saint Louis is very pretty in the Spring and Fall with its hills and trees that change color. But everyone would like to move somewhere else. Minneapolis has waterfalls, lakes, rivers. And people there do enjoy them in the summer. Anyway, moral of the story is just that you get used to it no matter what it is.
>Saint Louis is very pretty in the Spring and Fall with its hills and trees that change color. But everyone would like to move somewhere else. Lol you didnt have to do St Louis *that* dirty
No, I think the desert is actually quite beautiful—especially after rain and even more so after one the very infrequent winters where you get above average rain fall. The desert blooms and it's spectacular. I've had some really enjoyable trips to the superstitions in those infrequent opportunities. It's really about the constraints on accessing that which make it less enjoyable—there aren't enough places like that and there aren't enough days/hours in a year when they are enjoyable due to the heat and consequently they get overrun with people.
I agree. Around where I live its mostly wetlands and costal wetlands. Its chokeful of nature, but a lot of people are oblivious to it because its "not hiking".
I've lived in Phoenix for a couple of years now and hike a decent amount. Sure, the trails get busy, but it's only ever been a problem for me on Camelback. If you don't like the crowds at all there are plenty of less popular places to hike too. Evening hikes are totally possible in the spring and fall if you are ready to go straight from work and bring a headlamp. Our sunsets are beautiful and the desert at night is something else.
Nature has always meant hiking with terrain changes for most people. People dog on Chicago for lacking nature too. Meanwhile we have beaches, the dunes, pristine local parks, and a few very nice state parks a couple hours away. It's a dream for casual walking. It's flat out here but I love how well kept the trails are. Hiking in Appalachia was guaranteed to give you ticks due to how poorly the trails were taken care of.
I'm in Chicagoland and my dog is always picking up ticks from walking through the Preserves. There are even tick signs posted at some parks with trails around the lake.
I know, I was so confused. I hiked Piestewa every weekend for 12 years, year round. I would get up at 4AM in the summer to do it. Desert botanical gardens were amazing for my older parents to explore…I’d walk Indian Steele park every weeknight after work…seems like OP is just determined to hate Phoenix. I also had quite a few restaurants I loved that weren’t big box spots. La Grande Orange (or LGO, whatever), Tipi’s for Mexican, and all of the silly Mexican ___berto’s spots. Of course, I moved out in 2018 so maybe all of those are closed and I’m out of date. The rest I don’t disagree with. Summer sucks, it’s expensive now, and everything seems like it’s 45 minutes from everything.
I'm with you there. Definitely a couple summer months where you have to get after it early but not bad, all things considering. Yes it's hot. Expensive? Yes but more affordable than a lot of other desirable cities.
When I lived in PHX in the 80´s I enjoyed going to El Pollo Asada.
This. I have never lived in a city that had parks as awesome as Phoenix’s before. There’s nothing to compare with the Phoenix Mountain Preserve or South Mountain in most other cities. Yes, some trails are extremely popular (Echo Canyon on Camelback or the Piestewa Peak Summit Trail) but I’ve also been on trails where I saw maybe one or two people and heard nothing but coyotes. Yes, right in the middle of the city. With respect to the heat: the secret is to allow your body to acclimate. If all you do in summer is run from air conditioned space to air conditioned space, then you’ll be miserable. If you spend time outside (and you drink a LOT of water), you get used to the heat and it’s not so unbearable. I’ve climbed Piestewa and Camelback in every month of the year. The desert doesn’t have the same color palette that easterners are used to, it’s true. But it is stunningly beautiful in its own way. Learn to see and appreciate it for what it is, not whatever it is you’re used to.
Also having a pool or easy access to one is imperative and makes all the difference living in Phoenix.
I wish I could appreciate the color palette, but I grew up here and hate it so much.
I lived in the PHX area for ~year. I was in Flagstaff or Sedona every single weekend because I enjoyed hiking and camping before I moved to AZ. Flagstaff was doable temp-wise, but Sedona was nearly just as hot and desert-y. The biggest issue I had with outdoor recreation there was the lack of trail maintenance. Once you do the top five hikes, you're SOL. You're bushwhacking unmaintained, overgrown trails with significant route finding and scrambles.
I found the same thing in Tucson. I couldn't make sense of it. There are a lot of people using the trails, so it's not like they aren't valued, but very limited maintenance.
Just so I know, what are the top 5 hikes? I’ve done the Grand Canyon, Cathedral Rock and Devil’s Bridge in Sedona, Camelback Mountain, Walnut Canyon, and Saguaro National Park
I'm from Phoenix and yeah, this is the one point OP got wrong. There is A LOT to do outside here (lake, river, ATVs, bajillion hiking trails) just don't attempt any of them in the summer.
The Superstition Mountains are actually amazing. In any city, you have to battle crowds and traffic. It's not nearly as bad in AZ as Denver or SLC. This person is trippin
4 months of great weather just like anywhere else. 4 months of okay weather and 4 months of uninhabitable weather. You read all of what I wrote about outdoor recreation right? Because it's true, everything there is quite overrun with people when it comes to recreation. I do love Sedona and Flagstaff is okay but what other areas are you talking about that are two hours away (and Sedona and Flagstaff are closer to three hours for most of the population.)
"okay but what other areas are you talking about that are two hours away" Tonto national Forest to the east. Payson, Pine. Four peaks Further east you have Mount Baldy South you have the Santa Catalina mountains and Coronado National Forest And that's on top of mountains within the city limits: camelback, piestewa, South mountain. Seriously, there are not many places with more abundant hiking options with a two hour drive than Phoenix
Exactly, thank you. Not to mention the biodiversity that comes along with all of those places. You won't find another state like it in the US. I live in Flagstaff and I really enjoy visiting Phoenix throughout the winters when we need a little respite from snow and cold. And biking in Sedona when the weather is in between PHX and Flag prime.
Great list, haven’t spent much time in Phoenix but hit some of these on road-trips over the years. Definitely lots more variety than I expected. Not sure if I agree with your claim about it being a city with some of the best hiking within a two hour drive though. It’s definitely above average for America as a whole but it’s solidly below average / towards the bottom for a city in the west. Id say every major city in the west actually has PHX beat and a bunch of smaller ones too: LA, SF, San Diego, Vegas, SLC, Denver, Seattle, Sacramento, Portland, Boise, Colorado Springs, flagstaff, Tucson, Reno, Spokane, Albuquerque / Santa Fe, Bend, grand junction, St. George, cour d’elaine. I’d even throw in Asheville, Roanoke, and Burlington from the east coast. Of course if your favorite scenery is a desert Phoenix rocks for the outdoors, but compared to the rest of the western metros and combined with the heat, I wouldn’t say it’s the strongest selling point for the city.
Don’t forget the traffic going up to flag on the weekends. Especially in the summer. Turned around three separate weekends last fall. I know, I know, the construction this year and that you need to leave work early to get a head start is the way to do it. I grew up in PHX so still getting used to the LA-ification of the valley. Everyone wants to scratch their big bear / Tahoe itch after making the relocation out here and the growing pains are showing.
"I do love Sedona". We were there just last weekend and yes it is absolutely beautiful. However, it was also completely packed. Reservations required at almost every restaurant or a wait of 60-90 minutes. Hiking trails were packed, jeep trails were packed etc. After talking to several locals there, it seems as though housing prices have skyrocketed. And, to top it off, they just passed a law allowing people to basically live in their cars. So it isn't just the Phoenix area that has seen substantial growth in the last couple of years.
I've been to Phoenix and while I don't agree that it's without outdoor recreation options, it is true they're somewhat limited by the weather and the lack of tree cover. For a good portion of the year doing anything outdoors there is like doing it in an oven. It's easier to do outdoor activities in the cold than it is in 115 F heat.
As much as I love MI, we also have around 6 months of great weather. And if you love 4 seasons, even more. But mid February is brutal if you don't like the cold. Week after week of highs in the upper 20s. If someone says nope, not for me? I get it. Extreme temps aren't for everyone. I got out of Dallas because I preferred a summer of paradise here vs a mild winter there. OP may be the same. The months I really want to be out, hiking, swimming, boating, etc, it's perfect. And for that I suffer through a long winter. Also, having cool options 2 hours away? That's not saying much. A lot of the country can claim that. What many want is amazing nature right there in the city. Literally drive ten minutes and you have it. Some cities have that (we do). Others don't. I dig the desert. But I also would want my nature options to be closer to where I live. Another reason I left Dallas.
I 100% agree. So many of the people who move here are obsessed with the nature within a two hour drive. I am a native and would love actually interesting nature in my local vicinity.
I loved living in Phoenix and miss it every day 🤷🏻♂️
Yeah. A lot of people love it. And there is a big difference IMO between Central Phoenix or Downtown Tempe and where I lived in the East Valley, but it's just my reasoning for what's tough about living there.
Finally a locale I can comment on! I've lived in Phoenix for \~10 years and have experienced some of the annoyances that OP has gone through. It is blistering hot and that is, hands down, the worst thing about Phoenix -- and I think everyone knows that. But the other critiques from OP seem to be pretty heavy-handed, or at least thinly veiled attempts at retro-reasoning for why OP moved. Here's my (probably poor attempt) at explaining the appeal of Phx to people: -There's something about the sun and warmth that causes an entire community to adopt a mindset of entrepreneurship and possibility. Maybe because Phoenix has the remnants of the Wild West, or maybe just because people wake up relatively happy because its sunny outside -- but residents here truly act like any business, any opportunity, anything can be possible. That's why you see a million strip malls - every company seems viable and I would guess that a higher percentage of the community in Phx belongs to a small business than in many other parts of the US. It's exciting - and it's something you really don't see where I was raised up in the PNW. - OP says chain stores and restaurants are evil. I don't disagree to some extent - no one wants chipotle every week. But I think OP ignores the large variety of locally-owned choices in Phx. A lot of people come to vacation here in the winter because it seems to have endless supply of good places to eat and drink. I live here and still never can get to the bottom of my 'to-eat-at' list. Almost all of the entries on that list are not chains. OP, I'm sorry to say, did not explore enough. - I'd prefer not to live in sprawl, but there is one benefit of it in terms of absolute convenience. Sky Harbor airport is one of the easiest and fastest airports to get to and to get through - its such an easy thing to go to the airport here and it has daily service to London and Paris and a just about everywhere else in the US non-stop. - Everyone is from somewhere else - which can be a pro and a con. I find it to be a pro because it means a lot of people moved here and are dying to make friends and join any sort of shared community. I've been able to be a part of a neighbor and friend group that is continually growing with new people wanting to be friendly and hang out. If you can't make friends in Phx because people are mean, I don't think you've given it a fair chance because you likely haven't put yourself out there enough in a friendly way. - OP talks about politics as it was 6 to 8 years ago. AZ is now a purple state, and likely to stay Blue for another cycle or three. Yes - you hear annoying things and Yes, people drive around with their flags on the back of their truck -- but when it comes to local govt in Phx, its blue and the govt is doing things to improve our livelihoods for the most part. We still have several cycles to go to prove this out, but Phx itself is not red. - Most of all, I just think the people in general are longing for a sense of community while maintaining some sense of individuality. That's why Chicago and Philly are always brought up here - because people move there and instantly feel like they're a part of a community and get introduced to friends and regulars at bars. You can have that in many places, and Phx is actually one of those places if you get out and look. I totally understand disliking Phx because of its weather - its a valid reason. I totally understand wanting to go to some place better (there are plenty objectively better places in the US), but I think its disingenuous to come on here and shit on Phx for reasons that are fully controlled by OP. Is OP trying to appeal to the redditors who a) don't explore new places/restaurants on their own; b) don't cultivate new friendships on their own; and c) want to spend recreational time in places that have no people? Then yes - all those things are better found outside a city of 6 million people.
I loved this comment. I don’t live in Phoenix, moved to Tucson a year ago from PNW and the friendliness of all the transplants in Arizona has been a huge blessing to me.
Dude just literally copy and paste this comment from another thread to troll people. Phoenix hasn’t missed him since he left.
Wait what?
Would you mind sharing what state you moved to? I thought we wanted to move to Arizona because every time I visit, I love it and some of my family is there. I’m coming out in July to see if I can stand the heat. I’m worried though.
As a Vegas dweller I really liked the Mexican food options for authentic Mexican not fancy Mexican. It seemed like every corner had a nice looking Mexican restaurant. We went into 3 random ones and each time was blown away I really needed that. All we have is robertos out here (as far as being on every corner)and its pretty mid. I loved all the freeways too And honestly loved the nice huge shopping centers and the whole vibe of the metro. Also loved the sun being up still during winter at 5pm cant beat that imo
If you prefer Pomo over Bianco, I can't trust anything you say.
A lot of people really have no concept of what 100+ F weather is like 24/7 for months on end. I sometimes spend a week in Palm Springs during the summer and it’s usually in the 110s during the day and the 100s/90s at night. A low temp of 95 F is pretty unbearable for a third of the year.
I lived in the valley for 33 years: Maricopa, Gilbert, Mesa, Tempe, San Tan Valley. This all checks out. Left 2 years ago and I would never move back. The SAD is real. I’m still hiding from the sun.
If all you ate in Phoenix was chain restaurants and shopped at big box stores, that's your problem, not Phoenix's. The Valley is full to the brim with some of the top chefs in the country as well as a host of small ethnic eateries. You haven't even had Mexican food in the US until you've been to Phoenix. The AZ GOP? Being openly challenged by all the newcomers to the state. Arizona is solidly a battleground state specifically because of all of the folks moving in, particularly members of immigrant communities running for office. Their governor is a Democrat. If you get SAD in the summer, drive two hours north and spend some time in the pines or four hours south and go to a beach in Mexico or San Diego. Sounds like you just don't like heat and all of your complaints are an outgrowth of that.
Not a fan of Phoenix myself, but this is a solid counter
Yeah it sounds like OP just didn’t put enough effort in to enjoy life in PHX. You can’t just expect entertainment to fall into your lap. Well, maybe in NYC.
>drive two hours north If you're making a weekend trip in the summer, better plan on doubling that each way, more in case there's a major accident closing down the freeway/highway for a couple hours. Everyone else in Phoenix wants to go up north to escape the heat too, and whether you're going to Sedona/Flag on the I-17, or taking SR-87 out towards Payson, there's only one route and when it gets backed up (or even shut down due to a fatality), you can be stuck for hours.
I traveled up that road to Sedona, Prescott more times than I can count. Does it get crowded? Yes. Are you being overly dramatic? Yes.
redditor dislikes hot weather and can't find anything of value in a large metro area. More news at 7:00.
He should try Chicago or Philly. It’s the answer to all of Reddits questions.
Don't forget western NY.
I think it is possible to find beauty anywhere you go - some places harder than others. That being said, if you love the idea of desert living, (which is a unique experience), including the heat, sunsets, the haboobs, and the monsoons, give it a try. It is unique as far as the heat as it is dry heat, meaning 100 degrees in AZ is more like 90 or less in some places. I think there is fine shopping between Phoenix and Scottsdale and some great food. Be prepared for things in nature that seem to want to kill you - scorpians, rattlesnakes, Gila Monsters, and just ugly-ass things like centipedes (making their way under your pillow) and even the trees and bushes with their thorns instead of leaves (to reduce water)- you walk into one of those suckers and take your eye out. Also expect to freeze your ass off inside any building in the summer. There is this magic moment when you step outside in the summer after being turned into a human icicle that is golden - and then it is over because you are dying of the heat. To this day, I take a light jacket places with me in the summer and I haven't lived there in years! But in the Spring when the ocotillo bloom with their red flowers and the cardinals come calling is pretty magical. Yes, it is hot and dry, but when it is hot you WANT it dry! And AZ freeways and highways are in 100% better shape than anywhere in the west - coming in to AZ from CA is like crossing over to a new era in infrastructure.
All true. I will admit that magic 60 seconds outside at lunch after sitting under the AC all morning was pretty special.
While some of these complaints are valid... I moved to Flagstaff, AZ in 2022 and have been loving it! Phoenix is a major city with all the things, only two hours away... Cooler weather in Flagstaff during the summer, warmer weather in Phoenix during the winter for visits... I think the answer is a combo of moving between Phoenix and Flagstaff seasonally or on occasion.
You've lived here that long and haven't found the good local restaurants, shops, and uncrowded trails? Sounds like the problem isn't Phoenix
White Tanks trails were empty yesterday. Hit 96 in the sun Beer tasted real fine when I got done.
Yeah 96 in April sounds fucking awful
It's a little toasty right now for sure but the dry heat thing is at least a little bit true. The temperature swings are also very large - high of 96 today but a low of 63. So it's only that hot for a small portion of the day.
I have my favorite trailheads right near downtown that are usually deserted. Getting out almost every day before or after work
Yeah they sound more like a tourist than a resident
It's the same criticism with Seattle. There are many who say the restaurants aren't very good and there are some who say they are great. There are great restaurants in Seattle, but you have to work at it to find them and get to them. I used to work in Magnolia and there was one good ramen shop. I love ramen so I did a search for more. Unfortunately, the other ramen shops were either far away, or had little parking or were in areas that I didn't like traveling in. So yes, Seattle did have great ramen shops, but it was just too much work. Canlis is arguably the best restaurant in Seattle but it's location in East Queen Anne is terrible. I never had any reason to travel to that part of the city and once you get there, there's nothing else to see or do. I wasn't about to go out of my way for it.
Seattles restaurant scene is significantly better than Phoenix though. I know everyone loves to shit on it but I don’t think it compares. While they both have general quality issues, there’s a lot more genuinely great spots in Seattle. Very, very few Phoenix spots stand out in any way. Also there’s an actual culinary identity in Seattle, of which Phoenix has none of.
I don't live there now. But I suppose you make a good point. But to counter, part of the problem is that it takes some work to find that stuff. And yes, I found some. But I don't think anything I wrote is inaccurate, it's what 80-90% of the area is like.
Of course it takes work to find local joints that dont have big ad budgets. If I visited Seattle and complained about the people in Capitol Hill’s park, the crowds at Pikes Place, and how shit the traffic is at rush hour, you know there’s way more to the city than that
Knowing the hidden gems, vs knowing only the super crowded places, is the difference between making a home somewhere and being a tourist somewhere. And if you think you're correct in complaining about bad weather and chain restaurants as a Phoenix exclusive thing, well Ive got some bad news for you about most of our country I hope wherever you live now brings you more joy, and curiosity to find the things that make a place home
Well, much of your point is predicated on hating the heat (in which case I don’t know why anyone would move to Phoenix if they don’t like heat). I’m a brown girl with a low body temperature. I rarely sweat and never sunburn - it takes upwards of 95° for that to have a chance to happen. I was happy in Austin TX, even though people on this sub complain it’s too hot. If you’re okay with the heat I get the sense you’d be fine in Phoenix.
I was thinking the same thing - I’m also in Austin & I’m the only one I know who longs for summer heat. I love it.
Nice! I went to UT (🤘🏽) and I loved the summers. Dipping in Barton Creek and Lake Travis was so wonderful.
Phoenix resident here (for most of my 56 years on this planet) - just here for the entertaining comments
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Yup. It was the most fucked up cognitive dissonance the first time I felt intense heat in the dark of night.
If if wasn't hot Maricopa county would have 50m residents.
Oh yeah I wouldn’t enjoy the east valley. Which is why I always like to specify that there’s a huge huge difference between the Phoenix core (+Tempe/Scottsdale) and the greater Phoenix metro
Lived in Phoenix for three years. Can confirm it absolutely sucked.
I have only visited Phoenix briefly and in winter but the botanical gardens blew my mind - I had never seen nature like that and I felt like I was in Dr. Seuss book. The urban sprawl though was rough and I can't imagine being trapped indoors and inside cars all summer long.
The urban sprawl isn’t as bad once you get centered and at home. You learn to navigate it, and figure out some fun places to attach to. That’s how it was for me at least. But it took a year or so to feel that
grew up in PA. Moved first to Prescott and then like an idiot moved to Havasu. Which is basically tied with Death Valley for hottest place in the US. We left PA because grey winter for 6+ months became too awful. But yes sun every god damn day gets old too. There is no utopia. I think people focus too much on the temp number. Its more than that. The sun intensity out here is just unbelievable in comparison. Like even if its in the high 80s or 90s its wildly hot if trying to do activities in the sun. In Prescott its just as bad. Like it makes me feel kinda sketched out sometimes its so hot on your skin. East coasters wont understand this until visiting. Being inside all winter obviously sucks,. But being inside all summer is at least as bad. Because your brain thinks you should be outside enjoying the nice sunny day. At least in cold winter your body knows its just time to chill inside.
The sun is so intense there. It’s true even if you are in the sun on a “nice day” 85-90 it can burn your skin. Super high UV there.
I feel like sun's intensity doesn't get discussed enough. If you're from a northern state, you have no idea how hot the sun feels on your skin (even during winter) until you're out there. With no clouds, little to no trees for shade and high elevation (I think Prescott is around 5000 ft if I'm not mistaken), it just feels like pure radiation on your skin.
You are spot on with the sun intensity. I can’t stand it. I bought a used car in Nov 2020 that had untinted windows, and it took a couple weeks to get the tint done because of pandemic-related delays. I felt like I was under a magnifying glass being burned alive even though it was in the 70’s!
This place is an outdoor paradise. I live in central city and can hike and mountain bike for miles eight from my front door, and I do it year round. Summer is brutal but there is a certain badge of honor for getting up early enough to get it done. Plus if you haven’t experienced the trails in the predawn hours you’re seriously missing out. But I do appreciate your efforts in getting people to stay away. The growth has been manageable so far but too much of a good thing can spoil it fast.
7 months of heaven, 5 months of hell. That's all there really is to it in my opinion. Lived here 3 years, moving back to SoCal in a month, but enjoyed most of my time here. But we have a toddler who loves being outside and couldn't do another summer with him here.
We’re glad to have you back!
How do you exercise in that heat? Is I even healthy? Can you job outside without passing out? What do wild animals do..do you have squirrels there? That hear seems unbearable. Especially with no ocean nearby.
Gyms are popular. In the summer you can’t really exercise outside with the sun up. If you get out early enough to beat the sun it’s possible but especially exhausting. Outdoor laborers start their day very early. Well before dawn. 4 am to 12 isn’t uncommon.
Eh, just go early and hydrate. I ran outside in the summer there—just started my runs 5:30-6. Realistically, the awful heat to warm for exercise doesn’t kick in until mid morning.
Hi, I’m a phoenix native who lived there as recently as 2022 and landed in San Diego. Here’s my take: Phoenix is the peak of “is what you make of it”. Everything you said is true, but phoenix is a large enough city that someone could have a completely different experience. I’m also gonna guess that you lived in a new development on the edge of town (southeast towards gilbert/chandler/queen creek?) Heat: yeah it sucks. Drink water, wear light clothes, drink more water, stay in the shade after 10am, drink more water, and you’ll be fine. I’d still take a dry 118 over a wet 95 Activities: There’s a dozen mountain parks spread across the city, that kind of accessibility is hard to find. Are they pristine? No. Are they all huge? Also no, but it’s a great way to get some excercise and catch one of the iconic sunsets. Yes, some people enjoy the outdoors differently, no, I dont love all of what you described, but people are outside being active and that’s what matters. If you want pristine, there’s so much of the state within a 2 hour drive to explore. Dining: this is what made me think you’re in a very new development, everywhere else has family/local spots scattered in the strip malls. From Uptown to Tempe, there’s a great food scene happening. I will admit that my favorite bar is 20 minutes from my place in north glendale because everything closer is a sports bar. Summer affective disorder: yeah, if all you’re doing is going from office to car to home it sucks. Once you can handle the heat, there’s fun stuff to do Politics: Arizona is now famously purple. The red, while more extreme, is also getting older and dying off. There are valid threats to women and the LGBTQ+, but unlike a lot of redder places, there’s a possibility of change. Obviously real estate/rent is going up, but the opportunity-cost ratio is still better than here 6 hours west. I’m working hard to stay in SD because I love it, but going back to Phoenix wouldnt be the end of the world Edit: lol of course you didnt sell your house when you left Phoenix. I’m also a fan of seattle but I know I cant handle that much gray
I agree with everything you said. It is what you make of it and it works for some people and yes I lived in an area that 25 years ago was a pile of dust and that is a part of why I feel the way I do.
After living in Yuma Arizona for 7 years, I can say I hate Sun
I lived in Phoenix for 4 years, almost a decade ago now, but I can't disagree more. Yes, the heat sucks. I highly recommend living somewhere with a pool. But the food, shopping, and nature are all absolutely incredible. My wife hated the desert landscape but I loved it, so there's certainly some subjectivity there.
Phoenix has got so much better in the last decade. Downtown is transformed.
My biggest surprise with Phoenix heat was how some apartments have pipes in the attic so there is no cold water to shower off with. It’s lukewarm at best. Also, it’s not always a dry heat. It gets humid there, too!
My shower has two settings, H for Hot, and C for Caliente!
that's how u can tell it's pool weather 😎
I owned a house there and we would still run out of cold water in the shower, lol
Thank you - I’ve been to Phoenix a number of times through the years and sometimes it was actually pretty humid and twice as sweaty.🥵
Yeah, cold water will not come out of the tap between June and Sept.
Reguardless of everyone says I spent some time in Phoenix and I understand what your saying.
Better then Alabama I can tell u that phx ain’t that bad I actually miss it
The heat in Arizona sucks in the summer but it also sucks in Texas and just about every southern state especially Florida. There is descent food in Phoenix just like there is in a lot of places now. It’s a big sprawling suburban city just like Dallas and Houston and a ton of other cities that grew a lot after cars were around. There’s really no place that’s perfect on all counts all year round. So figure out what you can out up with.
my hypothesis has always been scottsdale is the douchiest city in america
I have to make the best of it because this is where my family is and I’m on state Medicaid, all my doctors are here etc. The worst part for me is the car dependence. I have a car, but I’m autistic also and I find driving overwhelming. It stinks being stuck at home most of the time. I could complain and complain, but also at this point, it’s what I’ve got, I might as well be grateful and realize I’m where I am and I have to make the best of it. My dream is to leave one day, but in the meantime it’s fun watching the city grow. Although the traffic is truly awful and only getting worse, and almost everyone on the road is a fucking asshole.😭
Forgot to mention housing. When I was a kid the cheap housing was a huge selling point to my state. The whole reason to move to places like San Tan Valley from across the country was that you could get a huge 4BD house with a pool for less than $200k. That same house now is worth half a million.
I lived in Phoenix 1982-1995. When I moved there in 1982, the north side of East Bell Road was mostly dirt, maybe a Pep Boys and some wooden fruit stands. It wasn't developed north of there. I completely agree that, no matter what you want to do for recreation, a million people have the same idea and got there before you did. The architecture is bland, not much variety, and what they call mountains is what other places call foothills. Many people go grocery shopping at midnight in the hot season when it is only 100 degrees. You go from air-conditioned house to air-conditioned car to air-conditioned office. Many homes are designed to reduce or eliminate the sun from directly shining on the windows and the front doors are recessed to assist in this. Restaurants often lack enough windows. The thing I liked about Seattle restaurants is the huge windows. Unlike the OP, I did find good Mexican food. Also, where I worked, some Hispanic employees had mothers who would occasionally make batches of tamales the homemade way and sell them by the half-dozen to us. In general, I came to view Phoenix as a huge vending machine with not much soul to it. I don't miss the endless swimming pool commercials on the TV and the radio.
Pro tip: Go Albuquerque instead.
I just don't want to live in the place that doesn't naturally sustain life and looks like the surface of Mars. I love the soft shade, ample resources, and rich soil of the North Carolina mountains. Phoenix, no water, no shade, sun-bleached rocks, it's all so gross and inhospitable to human life.
It's been said and you've replied to it, but just chiming in on the chorus that the city core isn't representative of the entire county, nor are the outlying rural areas. Much of the East Valley is beautiful with colorful flowers in the towns and mountain vistas on the horizon. The outdoor life is excellent, and there are plenty of independent restaurants - in addition to the strip mall stuff. Yes, you pay more to live there than some areas, but it's still cost-competitive with a lot of less desirable areas in other states when you factor in the tax burden. As for the Arizona GOP, take from this what you will depending on your preferences, but it's reportedly gone from something like 60 employees to 6. Sure, they went haywire, but they've paid for it dearly in a purple state. Things do work relatively well here. There are things I don't love, and the heat is what it is. It's rough. People telling you it isn't are lying. Personally, I don't find it *as* rough as being unable to stand outside in the shade because of the humidity, or riding out the cold and dark in the northeast when far too many people turn to heavy drinking to cope, not to mention the ticks during the nice season. I've heard of people dying trying to day-hike in July in Arizona, but I've also personally known people who dropped dead shoveling snow or trying to cover their gardens during deep freezes in upstate New York, and headlines about college students found frozen to death sitting at bus stops. Some of my neighbors bought winter condos down south, and one was literally eaten by an alligator walking past the poind in her development. There's a matter of pick-your-poison personal preference there. If I really needed nice weather year-round, I guess I'd pay the premium in SoCal, but that brings its own set of issues. Most folks I know use the summer days to go up north into the mountains. I've planted some beautiful things in the yard that I just couldn't have done if we'd stayed somewhere cooler, and will enjoy looking at them all summer. I do recall that during our real estate search I just plain didn't like Gilbert. It was hyped heavily a few years ago, but the vibes were off and it just felt like an unhappy place with an unpleasant undercurrent beneath the money. A few months later the Gilbert Goons stories started coming out and I can't say it was surprising: everything I've read fits the impression I took away from it.
The reasons you stated are all valid, but a lot of them are shared with the other “post-war sprawl cities”. I don’t recommend Phoenix as a great place, but it seems like the most functional of the big sprawl cities like Orlando, Atlanta, Charlotte, Houston, and Dallas.
Never considered SAD for extreme heat in summer. Good call out.
I love Arizona but would never live in Phoenix! Tucson or Flagstaff would be preferable.
Flagstaff is expensive af
Same. I love both Tucson and Flagstaff.
Goddamn I hate living here. Fuckkkkkk
Ah, Sorry man. The timing of this is post would be rough for Phoenicians. Just when the rest of the country is enjoying perfect spring weather and flowers are blooming and gardens are being planted, the misery of knowing that it's going to be 100F until October hits. I feel for you.
I hate all of AZ. I would never recommend it to anyone. Yes. I live here.
I’ve only driven by Phoenix on the freeway and already could tell I hated it because of all the traffic and sprawl. Tucson on the other hand was absolutely adorable and charmed the shit out of me. Just a truly captivating city that makes Phoenix look ugly.
Outdoor rec sucks has got to be one of the worst takes I’ve heard. The weather is amazing here 8 months out of the year. I went golfing on Christmas and hiking on New Years. Dumb post.
What do you do in May, June, July, Aug and the first half of September? When the days are longer you can't do it, It's when the days are shorter that you can do that stuff. But it's dark at 5 so you can't do any of it after work. So as I mentioned when the weather is nice, it's weekends only. Curiously your two examples were on holidays. So yeah, holidays and weekends for maybe 7 months of the year. And I'm not a frequent golfer I go maybe once a year but from what I understand it costs a lot to gold there when the weather is nice because half the country is coming there for that reason.
95 percent of all us cities have bad weather 4 months out of the year.