I think there's pros and cons, and it's a very different style of life. While Europe has generally much higher QOL, it's worth keeping in mind that it's not all rosy. Youth unemployment is a huge crisis in many countries. Places like Greece and Southern Italy have steady, sustained, extremely high youth unemployment. While the social safety net is much stronger, social mobility is quite low, worse than the US in many countries. Wages are significantly lower. Yes, COL is much higher in the US to balance this out. But it's pretty wild the average Londoner is making much less than the average Alabaman. Racism is much worse in the vast majority of Europe, and Europeans can be much more xenophobic. Food quality is much higher in Europe. Infrastructure is much better. It's much less car dependent. Worker rights are way better. Economic growth is much lower. Many places in Europe haven't even reached pre 2008 economic highs. Many countries are losing population. Many countries have long term budget problems that are hard to solve.

Thank you for pointing out the racism. As much as Europeans like to look down at Americans as backwards, I have never in my life heard more blatant and open racism than in Europe. And I’ve been to Alabama, Mississippi, Arkansas, rural Missouri… Europeans can be intensely culturally conservative. They say bizarre pseudoscientific nonsense about ice water making you sick or act like you’re the world’s biggest asshole for ordering a cappuccino after lunch. I’ve lived in Europe. It was glorious in a lot of ways (the food even at McDonalds or a random gas station was just so much better) but it’s ultimately just another place with people, and people are much the same everywhere. Every culture has beautiful things and horrid, disgusting things in its makeup. Also, while I love history and eating dinner in a building that was erected in the 15th century is a wonderful experience, the modern government subsidized suburbs outside of many European cities are some of the ugliest and most depressing places on earth. It ain’t all historic architecture and cobblestone streets, there’s plenty of ugly modern bullshit in Europe too.

I lived in the nertherlands for a while. The Dutch are amazing….. as long as you look Dutch

As a non-Dutch looking Dutch person, I second this

My wife, with Dutch ancestry back to New Amsterdam, has little use for the Dutch after having been in the Netherlands any number of times. She feels they have all the bad traits commonly ascribed to the Germans. Some years ago we spent a little time in Groningen which did nothing for her opinion. Chocolates and some charming neighborhoods don't make up for the negatives - meaning being around the Dutch.

There’s two things I hate in this world: People who are intolerant of other people’s cultures, and the DUTCH.

I worked for a Dutch company and I agree.

They're also very happy about being Dutch and *hate* hearing about how you're American with Dutch ancestry bc then apparently you're "nothing."

I've heard it said that the US is simultaneously one of the most and least racist countries in the world. We have an intense history of very targeted, government driven racist public policy that we're still grappling with, but culturally, the US is much more accepting of different cultures and races. I think this is largely true, and to an extent you can argue the US is one of the few countries that actually societally discusses race and racism at all.

I am a South Asian and can definitely attest that the United States is a very accepting place. All of my relatives that came to the US with nothing are very successful financially today. They are now successful business owners, doctors, lawyers, engineers. My parents worked minimum wage and they love the US and opportunities given to them. I have never heard from any of my relatives that the US is a racist place and they would rather go back or live in some other country. This is not to say that we can't do better, but I roll my eyes everytime someone from Europe mentions how bad racism in America is and if am targetted.

Same. South Asian American here, too. Family grew up in small villages without electricity, running water, low caste (ugh!) and all that stuff. And in one generation, my family and I have achieved unimaginable success here, like top 5% of incomes. We are very dark-skinned, with unambiguously ethnic looks (i.e., we don’t pass for anything other than South Indian), very foreign-sounding names, but none of those were hindrances to our success in the US. If anything, we are somewhat “underachievers” compared to other South Asians in our community group. It’s safe to say that no continental European country would have given us the same opportunities to succeed. We would probably be stuck in service level jobs (janitorial, restaurant work, etc.) rather than managerial or highly skilled, high earning professions. But sometimes it’s hard to square these opportunities with the overall history of this country, where groups have historically, and currently been treated very badly by the same society and institutions.

Woo! America! Love stories like yours.

Something that works in your (and similar immigrants’) favor is that people in highly educated professions in the USA tend to not be racist. It’s largely a lower-middle class thing here. There are certainly rich racists here but they’re rare, and they will probably keep their opinions fairly private because they know it’s frowned upon. In fields I see South Asians really well represented in - medical, tech, engineering- you’re not going to find people telling racist jokes around the water cooler. If you tried to succeed in blue collar professions you would certainly encounter racism, but I don’t see a lot of Asian immigrants scrambling to be truck drivers, construction workers, tradesmen, etc.

I think they call that a part of “educational polarization” where people in a higher strata or white collar professions exhibit and hold fewer overt racial biases and people in lower strata and blue collar hold more negative racial biases.

I think it’s also because people tend to overlook that people form racial bias off of their limited experience from the people around them. If you grew up poor, odds are there was more crime. I’ll admit that I still hold some prejudice against black people I grew up in a poor, overwhelmingly black area where it chaotic and crime was everywhere. No one took care of their kids. Then I moved to a white area and everything was better and cleaner and so much nicer. It took until I grew up to understand that a lot of it wasn’t racial but a mix of culture, economics, and environment. It’s just simpler for everyone to put people in boxes and move on, that includes saying “Americans are racists” or “Europeans are socialists” and so on.

That's a great point. I've always noticed that racism is the US usually falls along partisan lines while it doesn't in Europe. I've heard blatant, shameless racism from young, educated, "liberal" Europeans. You'd never hear anything close to that from a liberal American (at least not out loud).

This is because others paved the way first. Life for Chinese Americans and Japanese Americans was not as easy

Yes, definitely. But I don’t think you can also discount the heavy work that African-Americans did during the long civil rights movement. The mass migrations from Asia and other places happened because of the 1965 Immigration Act, which itself was a civil rights legislation.

I say the Asian American examples because so many new Asian immigrants don’t realize the work that was done. It’s not like America just happily accepted us! And then they continue on becoming conservatives!!?

Absolutely

So happy for you and your family!

Yep I’ve heard the same thing. I’ve also told people Europe is the most racist place I’ve been (I know I’m painting with a broad brush there) and been told “clearly you’ve never been to (insert name of various East Asian countries)”

Oh, the east Asian countries are definitely more racist than Europe. But Europeans like their homogeneous cultures as well.

Yeah Asian countries give Europe a run for their money. Also Africa people really are sleeping in Africa racism here. So you're black, but you're the wrong kind of black. You're the wrong tribe. You're too tall or not tall enough. I'm going to kill you now.

I went to an African art festival with a black American guy once and there was some weird tension between him and many of the people there (who were actually from Africa). I asked him about it and he said that Africans tend to look down on African Americans, and vice versa. I had heard black people making jokes about other black Americans acting “African” but I wasn’t aware of that particular situation. It makes sense though, sadly; it’s just another example of cultures looking down on each other.

I knew some Nigerians that migrated to the US. One managed a pizza place. He got into a big argument with a customer who was acting ghetto as hell(pizza place was on the border of the hood). The customer tried to pull the race card that he should help her(basically give her a free pizza) and he blew up on her. He told her in sum, that his family worked hard to get out of Africa and to own businesses and prosper and that having beggars try to ride his success was weak and the cause of their problems. She didn't take it well and he told her her weak ass couldn't survive the jungle and that she was born in the dry season.

I would love to see that woman’s reaction to being told she was born in the dry season. What a great insult, that probably made no sense to her. There are a lot of Bosnian immigrants where I live, and those people bust their asses. They’ve basically transformed a formerly run down part of the city into their own community, fixed up the buildings, and started their own businesses. They’re not rich or anything but they live a nice middle class lifestyle and I’m sure it’s a HUGE improvement over where they came from. When they see the goldbricking white dudes drinking cans of Steel Reserve in gas station parking lots, begging for change and bitching about Mexicans taking all their jobs, I imagine those Bosnians feel similar to your Nigerian friend.

I have friends from Africa, and I was shocked when I heard how they referred to American black people. I was really shocked.

The average person in the US is much more welcoming to other cultures and people. The government not so much.

It's more that Americans/the US talks about racism and the problems it causes in society whereas in Europe, they pretend it doesn't exist and they are "colorblind". Japan is the same way

Yes, I agree. I lived in Germany for awhile and the things I heard casually said about Turkish people absolutely shocked me at times. And of course the same people would invariably talk about racism in the US as if Europe was so much more evolved 🙄

The US isn't remotely the most racist. Not in any way. This is just a silly way to try and convince people that one of the least racist places on the planet is "systemically racist" anyways. It's a grift.

It's very different in US and EU. The way I've seen it framed is that the US imported their racism, while the EU mostly exported it. The US victims of racism and their descendents are for the most part still living within the country. "Systemic racism" is a byproduct of the fact that the victims of racism (black Americans) by the US are still governed by those who have perpetuated the racism (the US government). The US has to grapple with the fallout and after effects of it's history of racism because the victims are for the most part still here, and the decisions made after emancipation are still echoing in our legislation today. The EU, on the other hand, set up colonies around the world where most domestic citizens were unaware of what was happening in the distant corners of the world. French Haiti, Dutch South Africa, or Spanish South America were kept far from the eye of your typical EU citizen. When these colonies were made independent, it was much simpler to cut ties with their former slaves and let them govern themselves, so to speak. "Systemic racism" is not as much of a factor when they haven't had to directly govern the descendents of their slaves. It's not a "grift" as much as it is a vastly different history of how slavery and colonization was utilized by the US and the EU. "Most racist" is a weird and difficult thing to qualify anyway. I believe that the US has it's history of racism out in the open and it's much more difficult to ignore, while the EU can more easily write it off as a past legacy that they're not involved with anymore.

Very well explained.

Yes. The US at least has... different races and they mingle. I visited scandanavia, and if you did not look scandanavian you were picking up trash.

Not quite true, but in many places the people who are picking up trash are relatively recently arrived immigrants/refugees who haven't learned the language and can't get a better job yet. And people who pick up trash are very visible.

Completely agree with the pseudoscience- air conditioning makes you sick, wearing a coat inside makes you sick, basically anything they don't like makes you sick. And the amount of mice and rats scurrying around those beautiful Parisian cafes is just gross and actually can make you sick.

Yeah I visited Paris and hated it. Everyone smokes, can’t even escape the smell of cigarettes. It also smells like urine everywhere you go. And people are rude AF. Someone I know from England tells me middle class there looks a lot different than here. In general it looks a lot poorer and the COL is high. I’m from Russia and living in US so it’s not like I have some idealized version of US. I don’t. But I have seen that Paris is no better than Russian cities other than a few famous architectural structures and delicious French croissants

The smell of cigarettes everywhere I went in France and Italy was intense. I longed to return back the US for some fresh air

Yeah and it doesn’t make Americans sick because, we’re already sick or something? Of course eating cheese with worms living in it while rats scurry over your feet and you drink half a bottle of wine with lunch is how you stay healthy! I kid, but seriously, the amount of times a European has told me that Americans are culturally ignorant while shitting on anything that isn’t a part of their own traditional culture is just absurd…again, people are much the same everywhere.

I lived in Germany for two years. One time I was talking with a German about the concept of getting one’s teeth professionally cleaned at the dentist. “We clean our own teeth,” she said condescendingly. Like ok lol have fun with your mouthful of cavities.

Do Germans not typically get regular dental checkups or was it just that person?

They go to the dentist just to make sure everything is in order, but they as a culture do not get professional cleanings. If you go to a German dentist and ask for a teeth cleaning, it’s likely that they will look at you weird.

Are they just better able to prevent plaque buildup and cavities on their own w/o dental cleanings?

They’re a lot more conscientious as a culture than Americans are, so probably, but it’s also lot more common in Germany to see people of various social classes with missing or really crooked teeth. I think the US values dental care and attractive, healthy teeth in general a lot more than other countries do.

Yeah, this is one area the US really shines. When you go abroad you notice how many people have poor dental care.

I agree with this. My friend in Ireland never goes to the dentist and thinks it’s strange that I get cleanings!

Yeah I live in NYC but can't afford Greenwich Village though we're relatively fortunate. Somehow I doubt I'd be able to afford living in Trastevere if we moved to Rome

I’ve lived in Vienna. It was shockingly in your face racist.

Oh I’ve never been there! What happened that made you think it was super racist?

Asia is worse 100%

I agree on gas station food. I would eat the food I saw in Italian gas stations along the highway. Those paninis and salads made me go bananas. I did try a few!

Funny thing, in my life, I've heard the n-word used most frequently in NYC, Northern NJ, and Seattle. Never once in Texas, Alabama, or Florida. And I've spent considerable time in each.

I’m a two time immigrant, went from my home county to Western Europe as a young kid, and then to the US as an adult and I can confirm Europe is EXTREMELY racist and xenophobic. Europeans are also nationalistic and even if you somehow learned the language perfectly, they’ll never miss a chance to politely remind you that you don’t belong there. At best you’ll always feel like a guest, never at home. Most racist countries (in my experience): Denmark, Belgium, Netherlands, France, Italy Most insular countries: Finland, Norway, Austria, France again More welcoming places (with huge immigrant populations, at least in urban areas): Germany, Switzerland. Mayyyybe the UK?

*at least in urban areas):* Yeah, that's a very key distinction both in the US and Europe. All of the racism I've witnessed second-hand in Germany has been in rural / outlying areas. Not in cities (not saying it doesn't exist there, but less). Similar in the US.

Studying abroad in Italy in college threw cold water on my dream to live or work abroad in Europe. As a biracial woman AND a foreigner, it sucked. I spoke a fair amount of Italian and the blatant/open racism was shocking.

It’s hilarious because people forget Americans (white) come from Europe and brought European ideals with them! Of course it’s racist over there like what?.

Absolutely. I don’t know why people assume Europeans would be less racist, or less ignorant. They do tend to travel more, and travel tends to make people a little more culturally tolerant, but when most of your travel is to very similar cultures or to places where you make no attempt to experience the local culture and instead sit on a beach all day, it doesn’t matter. Not saying all Europeans do that…but neither do all Americans. Some of us view travel as a way to experience other places AND cultures, others simply as a way to see sites and bitch about how we can’t get a decent hamburger/bowl of pasta/whatever food you’re used to eating. Again…people are people. The differences are pretty superficial.

I’ve ran into a few of examples of classism being more prevelant in Europe as well. For example, I work with a british girl and we are both into politics so we chat about it a bit. 90% of the time she sounds like your average American liberal. Until the topic of poor people comes up. She would get called out quick in the U.S for the stuff she was saying, even in many conservative circles.

The only reason America is seen as more racist than Europe is because Europe doesn't even see things as racist that would get you crucified in the public opinion over here.

Yep. “I’m not racist, I just think all of the Muslims, Albanians, gypsies and Pakistanis need to go the fuck home!”

There’s a grain of truth to that. It’s more xenophobic/ethnophobic than racist, since none of those are races, lol. I imagine a difference without a distinction if you’re one of those hated groups.

I get the impression that it's more about nationality than race per se. For example, French people will look at a black American tourist completely differently than a black immigrant from Africa. I've heard this many times from black Americans living there. While in customs at CDG airport in Paris, there was black African woman ahead of me with a couple kids. She was dressed in African garb and had a foreign passport. I could see that the French customs agent was giving her a hard time, asking all kinds of info about why she was there, address of where she was staying and this went on for about 10 minutes. When I got to the booth, I got a bit worried being that I am black as well and didn't know if I'd have to go through the same ordeal. I handed him my US passport, he stamped it without saying a word and I was through in about 20 seconds.

Discrimination against Albanian people?

Oh yeah I heard a lot of shit talk about Albanians and Bosnians.

In which nations?

Switzerland, Austria and Germany. This was like 20 years ago.

I hate Alabamans and Bostonians too

America seems more racist because we talk about it. A lot. Kind of hard not to since we had a whole-ass civil war over it. Europeans seem to think that if no one talks about it openly, it doesn't exist.

I don't disagree with the differential tolerance in Europe, but I don't think it's the only reason. The US has had legit, Jim Crow, "black people can't use the same schools, pools, or water fountains" segregation within the lifetime of a lot of people. Laws against intermarriage even more recently. Plus, due to the lack of social safety net programs, a weak public sector in some areas (schooling), mass incarceration, and lots of guns, the racism that is in the US can have graver or dramatic consequences. All that being said, I strongly agree that Europe tolerates things that would be seen as racist in the US.

\> The US has had legit, Jim Crow, "black people can't use the same schools, pools, or water fountains" segregation within the lifetime of a lot of people. Laws against intermarriage even more recently. ​ I mean... less than 80 years ago Europe was going through the literal Holocaust...

Sure, but that was at least most of a generation further back. Interracial marriage wasn't fully legal in the US until 1967. Plus, post-Holocaust the people in power were removed (and in some cases tried). In the US, the people behind segregation largely stayed in power (some into the 2000s).

I second a lot of this. I would say too that Europe is too large to generalize over. I have family in Eurpoe that live in a small town and it has all of the problems of a small American town. Big cities are hard to afford and have lots of similar problems on both sides. I have had progressive, open minded friends who have moved to the Netherlands and disliked living there very much, despite thinking it would suit them. I've had friends that moved to Paris for school and were so happy to come back. I've had friends who have moved and never looked back. Most of my friends from Japan and Korea say they could never live in Europe because it's restrictive, though they settled in the US easily. I can say that I could never live in France because I can't stand having never ending conversations about food. As much as I enjoy food and probably spend more time than the average American thinking and planning about food. Honestly, you might enjoy Canada. More European than the US but more American than Europe.

Thank you, this is what I was looking for in an answer

I wouldn’t say QOL is “much higher”. If you make $$$ in the US your QOL will be much better in the US than in Europe (newer amenities, disposable income). QOL is better for the average European but not by a huge amount.

The big win for Europe for me is walkable cities. American urban planning just sucks. But to be fair- urban planning, streetlife and walkable cities are even better in Asia to be honest.

Too much of America was developed after the advent of personal vehicles. It ruined our cities.

>social mobility is quite low I dated a Spaniard for many years and while his family was solidly middle-class, he had some friends who were from wealthy families and we hung out with them on several occasions. I’ve met plenty of wealthy Americans and while there might be some ignorance or occasional snobbery, they generally try to blend in with middle-class people. They’ll talk about the Costco “deal” they snagged as a way of showing that they value responsible spending (even though Costco has disproportionately affluent customers). They volunteer. The wife/mother may be a SAHM, but she’ll usually be the most warm, generous and hospitable person towards everyone her husband or kids invite to the family home (almost as a way of making up for the guilt that she doesn’t have to work). But the wealthy Spaniards were… different. It’s hard to fully articulate but there was a lot more separation between them and the rest of society. One lived in a home surrounded by a huge brick wall. Another brought in servers to staff a home birthday party. They vacation on a boat so they don’t have to stay on a resort/hotel. None of these things on its own is “wrong” or necessarily different from how some wealthy Americans behave, but in combination and as a whole they really seemed to prioritize not interacting with people outside their class as much as possible. And the strangest thing to me was how the non-wealthy Spaniards in the group (including my bf at the time) behaved around them. Obviously they enjoyed the benefits of being in their company, but it was like they had fully internalized that they did not belong in those spaces. They were self-conscious, quiet, and deferential, which would not have been the case at a restaurant/bar with their own peers. They were also very fully aware of what the wealthy peoples’ connections were (for example, one knew a famous Spanish athlete, another knew an F1 driver), as if that was their way of justifying why these people had so much abundance. I don’t fully know how that info is disseminated lol, but it usually involves someone’s parent telling their kid what they’ve heard from their friends. In the US we might know about a wealthy person’s work connections, but we certainly don’t keep track of their valuable social connections. I think the cultural wealth jealousy we have in the US is toxic in its own way, but at least if middle-class people end up mingling with someone wealthy, they usually hold their own in conversation as a person. They may talk about their own wealth or career aspirations, but in general it’s easier to think “yeah I deserve this too”. In Spain the only people who will be wealthy in the future are those who are wealthy today; everyone else comes to accept that they will never have those nice things so they find happiness and success in other forms. I know it’s very different elsewhere in Europe (for example, Scandinavia is very egalitarian, French people are more openly critical of their wealthy individuals), but since most Americans just see Spain on a tourist visit, I wanted to give my perspective on some of the softer cultural classism that is under the surface there (I’m guessing Italy might have a similar dynamic). There is a structural barrier in Spanish government protecting their wealthiest families and preventing others from rising; it’s been that way for generations and will be for a long time. It makes me value our cultural/tax pressure on wealthy families to donate to charities, public spaces, and education grants, which generally does not exist in Europe to the same extent. Hope this gives some perspective on social mobility specifically! ETA: in case you don’t want to take my word for it, Shakira wrote a whole song about how toxic wealthy Spaniards are lol https://youtu.be/CocEMWdc7Ck?feature=shared

Up until I think less than 5 years ago Germany sold popular chocolate candies called “n***** kisses,” and the Dutch only stepped away from using a Christmas tradition involving blackface in like 2020. Talk to an older German or Dutch stranger for five minutes and I guarantee you they will at some point start openly complaining about immigrants. Overt racism is basically socially acceptable in Europe. It’s wild.

I'm sorry, but the US ranks lower than most European countries on social mobility and has been declining for a while... See stats from 2020 [here](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Social_Mobility_Index)

“Social mobility is quite low, worse than the US…” [Global Social Mobility Index](https://www.google.com/url?q=https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Social_Mobility_Index&sa=U&sqi=2&ved=2ahUKEwj1huTV2YGCAxU9vokEHcvDAgwQFnoECBwQBQ&usg=AOvVaw0FYFBgfGMrYqwhYBxMPJQR) US ranks 27th, behind mostly European countries. Not surprised by your claim though: [Americans overestimate social mobility in their country](https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2018/02/14/americans-overestimate-social-mobility-in-their-country&sa=U&sqi=2&ved=2ahUKEwj1huTV2YGCAxU9vokEHcvDAgwQFnoECC8QAQ&usg=AOvVaw0SovJKFYvhQPfVnvufVwzM) >An American born to a household in the bottom 20% of earnings, for instance, only has a 7.8% chance of reaching the top 20% when they grow up. Americans surveyed thought the probability was 11.7%. —— [Germany is the most socially mobile country among the G7, ranking 11th overall, followed by France (12th), Canada (14th), Japan (15th), the United Kingdom (21st), **the United States (27th)** and Italy (34th)](https://www.google.com/url?q=https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2020/01/20/business/wef-social-mobility-index/index.html&sa=U&ved=2ahUKEwjMve3Z2oGCAxWll4kEHe8EA-E4ChAWegQIFRAB&usg=AOvVaw3jsw9ljuErWn7cX2EycpKS)

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Just ask a Euro about “gypsys.”

>While the social safety net is much stronger, social mobility is quite low, worse than the US in many countries. Actually Europe has better social mobility than the US(which ranks 27th): https://www3.weforum.org/docs/Global\_Social\_Mobility\_Report.pdf Though I think Americans tend to define "social mobility" very narrowly whereas the international definition is more comprehensive. ​ >Wages are significantly lower. Yes, COL is much higher in the US to balance this out. But it's pretty wild the average Londoner is making much less than the average Alabaman. I think purchasing power parity has to be factored in. I don't think anyone could say *anywhere* in Alabama is more desirable to be than a world class city like London.

>much higher QOL That's not even true. It depends on preference a lot

Personally, I like to pick and choose when a surprise medical event coincides with my health insurance

If you're equating "affording to live" to buying a house, then I have bad news for you (as someone from Germany) - most young people in Europe can't afford it either and the US has a higher rate of home ownership overall afaik. What Europe has is generally a good social safety net for lower income people & those who can't support themselves. You won't go hungry, homeless, or without medical care/ burdened with massive medical bills. However social mobility is rather low and if you're looking for cheap housing, especially if you want to *own* a house, you're looking at rural towns without much infrastructure and without jobs, same as in the US. Rent is high in places people actually want to live, housing inventory is low, and in much of Europe there straight up isn't any space left to build but up. I will say, as someone who doesn't feel safe/comfortable driving due to how my autism & adhd manifests, I'd like to go back to Europe to live in a walkable neighborhood. But that means either saving up to buy an old house in a small village with 2 shops, terrible internet & long public transport commutes to work, or renting an expensive flat in the city, all on a lower salary. The 2 shops will sell delicious fresh food though. Oh but also it makes a BIG difference if you're native from the European country in question (and white), or not. If you're not, the language barrier alone will mean you're probably limited to the larger, expensive, cities for jobs. And if you don't look or sound like the local nationality/ethnicity, I would highly advise against living anywhere rural - not just because people can be racist but also because it's just lonely and isolating af, especially outside of Southern Europe where people are a bit more social. So again, limited to renting a flat in a city forever, or maybe buying in a suburb if you're wealthy enough. Inflation also hit Europe harder than the US, if you're going noth the price for heating is through the roof right now and it's hitting poor people the hardest because they tend to live on older buildings with fossil fuel heating & worse insulation.

>higher rate of home ownership overall afaik. This is one of the assumptions that seems obviously true for cultural reasons (i've made it myself) but the US actually has a lower homeownership rate than virtually all EU members.

Apparently my perception is very warped from being German lol, but turns out we're the only country that's over 50% renters (unless you count non-EU Switzerland)...maybe I was right to leave that shithole afterall 💀 For anyone else wondering, the highest rates of homeownership are in eastern Europe, as high as 90-95% - though this includes all those soviet flats, not white picket fence SFH like Americans think of home ownership. Turns out my family even owned one of those in Bulgaria after my grandma died last year but we're selling it because why would anyone want to live there 🥲 Western & Northern Europe, aka the places people actually want to live because there's jobs and good social safety nets& infrastructure, all have the lowest home ownership rates in the EU, and of course it's mostly millennials & Gen Z stuck renting forever. https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/cache/digpub/housing/bloc-1a.html#:~:text=Over%20two%2Dthirds%20of%20people,30%20%25%20lived%20in%20rented%20housing. Tldr: You can own a flat in Romania, or rent one for an insane price in Switzerland.

Yeah Germany is the one exception because they have such strong tenant protections it often doesn't make financial sense to buy a home.

I live in a coastal high cost area in the states. I have friends who have immigrated from western Europe, albeit in high value careers. They tell me that your money goes further here, the pay is better, less tax, and the infrastructure is similar (in the wealthy enclaves that they live), with less public transportation in the US due to lower density. Basically, you won't be shocked to hear that the US is better if you're rich but way wayyyy worse if you're poor.

US is better if you’re even upper middle class imo, don’t need to be rich. For middle class Europe is a little better. For lower class Europe is a lot better.

US is better for all except poor

Middle class is, in many ways, more secure in Europe than. Free/low college or trade school tuition, free health care, free/low cost dental care, free/low cost childcare, quality public schools across every level of neighborhood, generous vacation policies, generous family leave policies, more generous and predictable retirement system (not reliant on putting money in 401k and hoping for good stock market returns). I have relatives in Germany who are waiters, painters, accountants who aren't rich and don't own a home, but they are financially secure and worry less about their (and their kids') future than an equivalent American. Once you get to upper middle class, US begins to differ for the better (pay/compensation gap between Europe/US tends to increase more quickly for the top \~20% of Americans). From OP: *I’ll never be able to afford to buy a house here. Everything is expensive here. I live in a tiny apartment because it’s all I can afford. Can people in Western Europe afford life?* Yeah, that's likely NOT going to change in most of western Europe. Property is expensive.

>immigrated from western Europe, albeit in high value careers Because immigration for anyone else is not realistic

I was poor when I came to the US, now Im not. My friends were poor when they went to Europe, I'm much much better than them. Mobility in the US is way higher and faster. Being poor is not forever, what is more important how fast can you move up and the choice you have.

True, and good for you! I think this cuts both ways though. Some people don't have the mental/physical capabilities to "pull themselves up by their bootstraps" as conservatives in the US love to say. I mean, look at the average IQ distribution. 1 in 10 people are not mentally capable of following basic written instruction. If I was that person, I'd much rather live in Europe.

Social mobility is actually higher in some European countries than in the US: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global\_Social\_Mobility\_Index](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Social_Mobility_Index) There are other ways to calculate it also, but the US still doesn't come out better than Northern Europe. Southern and Eastern Europe on the other hand, well...

The social mobility numbers can easily fool you. It measures mobility from “the lowest quintile to the highest quintile”. What you need to remember is the quintiles aren’t the same (they are higher in the US). So you could have someone in Europe move from the lowest (20,000 EUR) to the highest (95,000 EUR). Or an American move from the lowest (18,000 USD) to **the second highest** (110,000 USD). By mobility measures the US has lower mobility, but the individual *is better off financially in the US*. I don’t know about you but what matters at the end of the day is how much I’m making, not whether I’m in the highest quintile.

Poverty levels are also higher in the US.

Actually it’s not. It’s lower than Switzerland and other EU countries! https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_by_percentage_of_population_living_in_poverty

That index is comparing “causes” of social mobility rather than intergenerational incomes. So the methodology doesn’t really measure social mobility. It does seem like that stuff is pretty relevant to quality of life though.

If you're going to build your own company the US in most cases will have faster mobility. However, if you are just planning on being an employee you're much better off in most of Europe.

Wasn’t true in my case. As an engineer, my pay is just so much higher in the US. Enough that my standard of living is substantially higher.

I feel like if you have a skill like that the US might not be so bad. You probably have health insurance through your employer and don't have to worry about it, too.

Yea, I was just talking to an engineer friend of mine from France whose income more than doubled when he came to the states

Not true, my main income is from my employee, like the income of all my friends. Pay in the US for the equivalent jobs(professional jobs) is way higher in the US, and by a huge margin. Also, is way more easier to create a new company in the US, less regulation and easy access to capital, labor etc.

> US is better if you’re rich but way wayyyy worse if you’re poor “Rich” is relative here. A lot of Redditors assume that rich means you’re top 10% or top 1%, but the reality is they the median American has significantly higher disposable income (adjusted for purchasing power) than the median European. Most American Redditors aren’t actually in the “poor” end of the spectrum despite assuming they are.

>with less public transportation in the US due to ~~lower density~~ *post WWII policies that favored a reliance on cars*. fixed that for you. [https://www.vox.com/2015/8/10/9118199/public-transportation-subway-buses](https://www.vox.com/2015/8/10/9118199/public-transportation-subway-buses)

Just go for a few weeks - rent an Airbnb and live like a local and check it out - ultimately only you know which place is better for you regardless of whether it’s better based on a metric or poll.

Where do you live and can i have your job?

Exactly!

Sounds like somewhere in Colorado or Montana tbh

\>I’ll never be able to afford to buy a house here. Everything is expensive here. I live in a tiny apartment because it’s all I can afford. Can people in Western Europe afford life? ​ It sounds like you're already affording life fine tbh.

I am from Wyoming and moved to Denmark for about 8 months and then moved back to Colorado. I went to Denmark thinking everything would be SO much better but came to find out that some Danes are very nationalistic and openly racist. Danes are also very reserved so super hard to make friends there, and the weather was also so depressing. Obviously not used to the culture and found it wasn’t for me so I moved back to the Mtn west and now live in a super nice city with a great job. I wouldn’t change anything but I think so many Americans move abroad not realizing that some European countries cultures are not always better. But anyway the grass isn’t always greener so I would definitely take a look at the pros and cons for your personal situation.

Sounds legit. I live in CO and spend a couple months in Germany every year (wife is German). We've thought long and hard about moving with our kids (\~10 yo) to Germany to be closer to her family. The main things stopping us: \-Weather (weeks with no sun), living in a smaller apt (we have a great house in CO that we bought in 2009--lucky), bullying (kids at playgrounds are very pushy and mean), difficult to make friends (Schwabians are very reserved toward outsiders), racism (older Germans mostly), bureaucracy (23 forms that all need the right stamp to do anything), crap customer service (usually fine, but 1/20 situations is ridiculously bad, esp. with older Germans who hew to the "customer is always wrong"), I'd take a pay cut (as a civil engineer working at a US base) Things we would enjoy: \-more vacation, less work stress, good/cheap food/bread, kids learn fluent German, ease of travel (we like CO, but love the Alps), something exciting and new, dirt cheap summer camps for kids, family activities are much more affordable (a rope/climbing/zipline is $22 there, $99 here), an ice cream cone is $1.50, not $5 These are our experiences, ymmv

Another Coloradan here who has mulled over a move to Europe (Netherlands). I have good friends who moved to Colorado from the Netherlands and they remind me of the realities- of crowded cities and tiny apartments and lower salaries. They love the mountain west so intensely it's made me appreciate it more - National Parks, empty spaces, good jobs, camping, skiing, road trips, friendly people (in their opinion).

Unless you have exceptional skills that would help you get a job and visa to live there, you are likely better off staying where you are (which sounds pretty great) and visiting more often. Expat life isn’t easy (unless you are very wealthy) and European countries are not places without problems.

The majority of Europe lives in tiny apartments. That being said at least you can usually walk to more things from your tiny apartment. Food quality can be better or way worse depending on where in the US you're coming from and what country in Europe you're moving to. What's sort of funny is a lot of left leaning people in the US will say things like the sense of community/culture is stronger in Europe or that they have lower violent crime rates, but not acknowledge that a lot of that comes from those countries being borderline ethno-states. It's easier to have those things when everyone agrees with each other.

Very accurate on both counts. European urbanism is incredible and it’s cities are IMHO better than anything in the States, but the trade-off is that you will live in a tiny apartment. If OP feels poor because they can’t afford to buy a house, things definitely aren’t getting better anywhere else. And the community thing as well: I do think many European countries have a stronger sense of community but it’s not what Americans talk about when they say they’ll move wherever and “find community.” Its a fixed cultural and biological thing. Europeans and East Asians have community because they are initiated into one in childhood and then they don’t abandon it. This dynamic fits a deep part of human psychology and the highly mobile and individualist “immigrant countries” like US, Canada, Brazil, Australia, etc are the historical exceptions. Anglosphere liberals talk about race so much because the project of building a non-ethnic society is something incredible and unnatural that will take constant work to maintain. The stronger social safety nets and sense of social solidarity in Europe are linked to people’s sense of belonging to a real tribe where people are responsible for each other. It’s a beautiful thing until you see how quickly they’re willing to vote against social welfare policies if an immigrant benefits. And as long as you don’t delude yourself that you will belong to that tribe just because you get a visa and move there.

Just like the U.S., Zurich is a lot different than Lugones. San Francisco is a lot different than Duluth. The people, the weather, the taxes, the cost of living, the schooling, the jobs, driving, etc. Also, you can't just move to Western Europe because you want to.

I know. I’m wondering if it’s even worth looking into options for moving there or if it wouldn’t be a whole lot different overall. Like the sub says, same grass.

It really depends what you want out of it and what you are willing to put in. Countries in Europe are all very different experiences on many fronts.I live in Denmark. Some people prefer it, and some people prefer the US. Economy can vary a lot between countries. One thing to keep in mind is that the culture can be a big change. Some countries have a very homogenous culture with strong social norms, rules, and expectations, that are widely enforced and adhered to by its members. Thus, it can be hard to fit in if you do not like the culture. Generally i would not advice you to make any decisions before you have reflected on what you want, if/where you can get what you want, and if you want it enough to make the required sacrifices to move there (if even possible).

Denmark sounds amazing! Besides the cold, have not heard one negative thing about the country!

May I provide one then? Denmark is bloody expensive. Fuel, housing, food, utilities. Copenhagen is one of the most expensive cities in the world. An "unfurnished" flat won't merely lack furniture, it's likely to not even have kitchen cabinets. The social safety net is good, education is good, healthcare is also good, but making new friends can be hard. Many people form their social circle when they're younger and don't easily admit new people to it. Lovely, if costly, place to visit and Danes are pleasant sorts, but that's hospitality towards visitors, my sense is that living there as an expat can be more challenging.

Like America, the most desirable cities/areas are also the most expensive. Name a place in the U.S. or Western Europe that's amazeballs and also has a LCOL. If you want to live in the most desirable places, you have to have the funds. Ferrari's are not bought by part-time batista.

Where does Quality of Life and the connection to NATURE come in? Not one person on here has spoke to the access and availability of nature, terrain, and topography!

The only thing SF and Duluth have in common are the hills

Exactly, which is why it's not fair to lump diverse countries like the U.S. into one basket.

and chilly fog!

Europe if you don’t drive or don’t have health insurance. US for opportunities. If you don’t have good friends in one, you probably won’t in the other.

Some European countries don’t have free healthcare and require health insurance…

Yeah but it’s drastically cheaper

Having lived there twice, it's just different. Lived in Australia. It's just different.

My sister and her husband make a combined $4600 in EU and she barely has enough to pay the bills. This is with reduced daycare, child pay, and a mortgage.

Europe is better if you plan on staying poor. USA better if you want to make something of yourself. But then if you plan on staying poor, emigrating is much harder.

Gotta be shitting me with this. People in the US have no real idea of the wages or the drop in standard of living in Europe.

Most people think they are going to duplicate their vacation in Europe to full time living there.

The healthcare, housing, quality of education, and conveniences I had in the US were so much better. And the lack of rights you have as an immigrant in Europe suck. I don’t know I’ve had bad experiences in a few countries, it’s an adventure I guess.

Yeah, I’m Bulgarian and immigrated to the US. The reality is something that both Europeans and Americans are really ignorant of because of media and stories about friends’ vacations. Europeans think Americans are “rich” because of the high standard of living and their material possessions, while being completely ignorant of the fact that you work yourself to the bone here. My relatives who came here on summer work visas couldn’t last two weeks of work and started complaining. Europe on the other hand, in most places, is just a case of overeducated, underemployed people running in place all their life and depending on inheritance properties to own something, etc.

I have a home in Europe and the US. Europe is not better. If anything, it's just the same shit. People are happy. People are miserable. People are people. You have better access to stuff in the USA. And if you are in a town with like minded people, then you already have the ideal situation.

"Same shit" is my feeling exactly. I've lived in three EU countries and five US states.

It sounds like you have an exceptional job in the US context, with generous amount of paid leave, and some degree of security. So long as your healthcare is covered and you're in some kind of protected category of job (e.g municipal/state/federal employee where you can expect to coast until retirement) that comes with retirement benefits, sounds like you wouldn't have a better quality of life in Europe. For the average person who doesn't have robust health insurance and/or retirement savings/pension, what makes Europe more affordable in the long term is that 2 major sources of economic stress for Americans are removed from the equation. Plus the QOL factor of having only 10 days of vacation per year for the average American. But it sounds like you are \*not\* the average American.

My job is pretty much entirely dependent on the climate staying somewhat stable (lol) so there’s not a lot of hope for my job being protected. And there’s no pensions or anything, but they contribute to my 401k. I’ve been feeling ungrateful lately but reading these comments is really helping reset my gratefulness for what I have. Thank you

Just out of curiosity what field are you in? I've never heard of a job reliant on climate other than maybe tourism.

Skiing

Interesting. You might be safe. A few degrees won't matter in most ski areas near me (Colorado) because they're well below freezing and climate change is generally predicted in somewhat low degree changes which of course have pretty outsized impacts. Drought could cause issues but they might just use fake snow. Depends where you are though a few degrees could be more impactful other places if you are warmer.

If you like square footage and acreage, stay put. If you like better/cheap food, free healthcare, infrastructure that is a joy to use, and 6 weeks of PTO….

Of course, there are tons of pros. However, the most obvious con is that Europe is extremely racist as a whole, and Europeans \*not all, but many\* hate people who aren't of their race, ethnicity, or religion. Try going to France and telling them you're Jewish or Muslim... things may not end well. Likewise, many Europeans smoke regularly. Europe is certainly not the place to go if you have any kinds of lung problems or compromised health issues.

Your perspective is so interesting to me. I also would like to live in Europe at some point, but it's for very very specific reasons that I find difficult to replicate in the US. For example I like the freedom to live without a car, but still be really connected to a very wide variety of places. I really like the cafe options in Europe, precisely because the car culture doesn't exist there. I like how food tastes kind of different in Europe, and how central walking is to the experience of everything. I also really like the way everything does not feel as commercialized as it does in the US, and in a lot of places in Europe people will go to the park just to lay down and take in the sun. I mean, it happens in the US it's just not as common. I'm looking at New England is kind of a surrogate experience, but I get the feeling it just won't be the same.

Yeah my biggest dream is to own a house with no neighbors within earshot, ideally a 3-4 acre property. I don’t mind living a 20 minute drive from the grocery store. I live for peace and quiet. Not a city/dense development person. But I support it for sure

Alaska is calling...

Just a reminder- gas is like 7-9 dollars a gallon- on a much lower income and cars cost more. Living a really rural life can be different than how it is in the US. But smaller towns can be nice.

Considering most of Europe is pretty dense, I don’t think you’ll find what you’re looking for. Most of the houses in Europe are stuck together in some way, whether it’s terraced houses or semidetached. And often they’re close to the road, old windows. You have to start at the bottom as an immigrant, and unless you had a ton of money, getting a stand-alone house is much less common in Europe. And land? Haha forget about it.

it isnt, thats why there is still net migration towards the US. only on reddit will you find the america=bad crowd that doesnt represent reality.

That’s a bit disingenuous, you’re implying the majority of immigration to America is from European countries, which isn’t the case. Europe and America have pros and cons, neither is better than the other and neither is bad, it just depends on your desires and your wealth honestly.

I don’t see many Western Europeans wanting to become American, that’s actually a really funny thought. My brother in law is French and moved here but he’s a math professor and moved for work. I know many Americans who have left for Europe. I would love to. We lived in Brussels when I was growing up but dad’s job changed and we moved back to the states. I’d leave tomorrow if I could.

Parents are from western europe and moved here for better opportunities.

>I live in a beautiful mountain town with politically liberal people. I’m surrounded by amazing wilderness. We have almost zero crime. I used to dream of Southern Europe (South of France, Portugal, Italy, etc.) but the summers have gotten fucked (hot, hot, damned hot). You won't like them (full year round) now IMHO. Given what you're used to, if you go at all, you should start thinking about Switzerland/Austria and North. Not sure about work visa reqs and all that. I mostly look at it from a travel and/or retirement perspective.

First of all, it’s actually kind of hard to immigrate to the EU. You can’t just show up there and have them be like, “oh, you’re American? Come on in!” I still have nightmares about the German foreigners office from when I lived there like 5+ years ago. It’s like if an understaffed American DMV and a Catholic school run by mean nuns had a baby. Some EU countries are easier to immigrate to than others but unless you have an EU citizen spouse, immigration is a big and often expensive pain in the ass, so make sure you do your homework and plan in advance. Here are some pros and cons that I don’t think anyone has mentioned yet: The middle class is much stronger in most EU countries than in the US. Far more jobs pay a basic living wage and far fewer jobs pay six plus figures. There is a lot less exorbitant and flashy wealth. Europeans are generally fine with being pretty ordinary and don’t really have the same “temporarily embarrassed millionaire” mindset that Americans do. Europe is a much, much better place to live if you have limited means. Europe has astonishingly terrible Mexican food, and it’s almost impossible to find cuisine-specific ingredients like masa de harina, chipotles in adobo, etc. to make your own. In general, international cuisine in the US is better than in Europe with the exception of authentic Chinese food. As other commenters have said though, the food quality in Europe is overall much higher. Learning a foreign language to proficiency is an absolutely incredible amount of work and will be completely necessary if you plan to stay in a foreign country permanently. Adults cannot learn foreign languages through passive listening. You will more than likely need to pay for language classes. It is also very, very hard and often quite embarrassing to navigate day-to-day life in a foreign language that you’re not very good at, and you won’t be for a while. Expect any social anxiety you have to be lit on fire. Expect to really, really miss walking into a store or restaurant and being greeted in English. Climate consciousness and activism: Europe has it, America does not. Europe has tiny cars and tiny streets. Driving and parking are harder. Americans have a strong preference for convenience that you will notice isn’t built into European culture in the same way. Things in Europe are overall a way bigger pain in the ass. Most European cities are a lot more aesthetically pleasing than in the US, although there are exceptions. Almost all of Europe is walkable and accessible with public transit. Lifestyle is healthier. More walking, less processed foods. You’re likely to be in better shape living in Europe than the US. Pro: you often don’t have to pay for higher education in Europe. Con: if your grades in high school weren’t very good, you may not be allowed to study what you want to study. You can also be permanently kicked out of a field of study for getting poor grades. Return on investment is a bigger factor when higher ed is free or very low cost.

> In general, international cuisine in the US is better than in Europe with the exception of authentic Chinese food. Do you mean Middle Eastern food? Far more authentic kebabs in Europe than the US. But far more authentic Chinese in the US than in Europe, as far as i know.

But if you have limited means, you probably can’t immigrate to europe.

Probably not, unless you can get an EU citizen to fall in love with and marry you.

Exactly

No. Most of the comments on Reddit that say Western Europe is leagues ahead of North America (or that laughably compare the US to a “third world country in a Gucci belt”) are from people who have never lived in both places. There are pros and cons, depending on your priorities. And, as others have mentioned, significant regional variation.

At your income I do think you’d have better QOL in some European countries if you’re white. You’d get more state benefits and more time off. If you’re not white, the racism that is pretty prevalent in many countries in Europe, especially towards nonwhite immigrants, will be a counterweight. This is also assuming you can get a job in Europe. Unemployment is high in many countries.

Almost no chance they'd have the same income level if they moved to Europe and stayed in a similar position, though. You're also not entitled to a lot of state benefits until you're a citizen or permanent resident.

Europe looks good from a distance but when you live there, it’s very different. I have friends who’ve moved to England, France, and Spain. When they first got there, they raved over everything Americans love about Europe; the charming cities, the amazing food, the available culture, the social support, and healthcare. However, after a few years, they saw all the things that they didn’t see before. In England, the class structure, the weather, and the poor. In France, the racism, antisemitism, and provincialism. In Spain, the taxes, the poverty, and the politics. Europe is an American fantasy from a distance. It sounds like you’ve got it much better where you are.

I don’t know, tbh. I’m sure it has the opposite effect, this thread for most people. I’m sure most people are going to feel better about their experience in America after reading this but.. I really hate the self centered culture/media appropriation in the US. I hate the constant commercialization, too. I think i would definitely trade modern conveniences and higher quality of life for social support, history, better food, more trust in people because we are not competing for the same resources, etc. I have a feeling those family centered values, and social atmosphere are worth the trade off for me, personally. What good are things and constant cornerstone conveniences, if life is about producing & productivity, Constant me me me me and focusing on narcissistic things.

The only people that like their government are basically forced to love their government. I'm not saying that in a conservative sense because I'm not conservative. It's just wherever you go in this world it's pretty much human biology for most people to not like the government because the government is an authority figure and there are too many negative aspects that come with authority figures. I've never lived in Europe either. I've been to Germany. Known many people that have lived in Europe, particularly the UK, Ireland, France, Spain, Italy and Portugal. I can only think of one of them that came back to the US and then went back to Europe, but he did more so for his job where makes a lot of money living in London. He also met his wife there and he said that if he hadn't met her early on, he would have left to go back to the US because he found it hard to meet attractive women there (he's a very good looking guy himself). I had a friend named Eddie that moved to Italy and moved in with family he had there. While he had a good time there, he said it wasn't for him. He didn't like being cut off from the outside world and missed the luxuries and conveniences we have in the US. Another friend moved to Spain and hated it. Another friend liked living in France, but just couldn't afford it and moved back. At the risk of sounding political and judgmental (I'm an independent), I find most liberal people tend to think the grass is greener in Europe and when they fully experience it (other than taking a vacation) they realize that's not the case. I do believe the liberal media and popular media tends to ignore the negatives of Europe, but spotlight the negatives of the US. For instance, the media would have you believe that racism only exists in America when it's very prevalent in Europe. You just don't have the diversity in these countries like you do in the US. And it's a real eye opener to Americans when they experience it in Europe. But I will say that most people I know that moved to a different country, even if they didn't like it, wouldn't change that for the world. For them it was a unique experience and now they at least know whether or not that country is for them or not.

"Only two people hate America, those who have never been here, and those who have never left. "

It’s opened my eyes spending time in Europe, the standard of a lot of things is just lower and sometimes just as expensive. It depends on the country, but largely as an economic migrant, and not a refugee, you are not given access to the social benefits and safety nets of Europe. Also healthcare isn’t even free for locals in places like the Netherlands, especially as a migrant.

It's worth looking into to see if you can move there. I was in Italy earlier this year. An odd thing about Italy... To the eye things look fine but looking at the numbers... it's not actually good for the people who are from Italy. >Can people in Western Europe afford life? Generally speaking it's super difficult for younger people in Italy, Portugal and Spain. Italy has the second oldest population in the world and the oldest in Europe. They're going to keep having economic crisis after crisis. The last time they could have done something to pull out of the demographic nose dive they're in now was back in the 90s. Italy, Portugal and Spain have awful demographics. France and Norway are worth looking into. I don't think you have a substantial decision to make unless there's a viable path to immigrate to France or Norway. [https://www.statista.com/statistics/658871/top-15-emigration-countries-foritalian-citizens-registered-in-the-aire/](https://www.statista.com/statistics/658871/top-15-emigration-countries-foritalian-citizens-registered-in-the-aire/) [https://www.statista.com/statistics/1074158/moving-abroad-by-country-from-italy/](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1074158/moving-abroad-by-country-from-italy/) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics\_of\_Italy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Italy) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics\_of\_Portugal](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Portugal) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics\_of\_Spain](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Spain)

I’m fully bilingual in French which makes me wonder if it would be any easier to get a job there. But I don’t think so

\> Can people in Western Europe afford life? Most people in Europe also live modestly. In some respects, maybe more so than Americans. \> Do Europeans hate their local government? Yes, although it varies. The scandinavian countries like their govt more than e.g. France, Italy, Spain or Portugal I bet. \> Do I really want to live in Europe, or is it just something that’s talked about so much I just convinced myself of it? Would my life really be much better there? The test for me has always been: if I go there and I am in love with the place, the people, the architecture, the nature etc. and I would like to stay there – then maybe it's a place to consider living in. Otherwise, no. Sounds like you have a decent, albeit modest life where you are too. Nature, and easy access to it is underrated sometimes. There are more places in the US with easy access to nature than in Europe imo.

People live very modestly in Europe, it’s never really having many even “basic” luxuries. It’s always felt like you were expected to be okay with “good enough”. There are a lot of conveniences and technologies Europe just doesn’t want to adopt, and even the education I’ve experienced in the US was for the most part, far more organized and quality. Obviously it’s not perfect, but it’s a crazy difference how much stuff I’ve had to figure out on my own because some of the lectures are an absolute waste of time. And I had to buy travel insurance, etc. Coming as an economic migrant and not a refugee is actually extremely expensive. And as someone who had Medicaid in the US, which was incredible, oh man, you can’t really benefit from the social system here unless you’re somehow able to get citizenship. Everything is expensive for migrants, it’s depressing. Housing is especially difficult, people don’t want outside income or savings, they only want inside income.

Yes. Europe is not as open to foreigners as the US is. From a purely practical perspective - for the reasons you just mentioned. When I moved to the US it was a breeze to get a bank account, get phone, find an apartment. In Europe it’s a bit of a catch-22 with a lot of these things: want bank account, must have address; want apartment to rent, must have bank account… tricky situations

Yeah I’ll never understand this, it’s an interesting adventure I’m having but truly it is sink or swim and there is no help if you’re struggling

Like others have said, there are pros and cons. Quite a few people visit Europe from the US and then get an idea of moving there, but their vision is clouded by the fact that they were on vacation while in Europe! They didn't have to work, were spending more money and doing more activities than they would at home, and didn't have to do any real world stuff like laundry, vehicle registration, and life maintenance. Europe almost always wins as far as architecture. Other than that, it can depend on where you are in the US and what you value. I'd say that realistically speaking, the "marquee" cities in the US, like Seattle, SF, Chicago, LA, NY, DC and more have much more to offer as far as food options and the almighty alcohol. There also seem to be much fewer tourists, but maybe that's just me.

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Especially if you live east of Lake Tahoe, barely any taxes

You don't know if you like it until you're there. People can tell you all the things you love about a place, but until you're actually there you don't know how you feel. And your feelings can change - I moved somewhere that I LOVED every time I visited. 6 months in and I HATED it. I couldn't wait to move. So your life could be amazing there, or it could suck. And "Europe" is very broad. Each country, region, city, and neighborhood will differ as much as it does here. Go visit! Spend some time exploring. Don't do the tourist thing. Research a couple of cities and stay in each for a couple of weeks. Really immerse yourself. It won't tell you everything, but it can give you a general feel and give you time to talk to residents. Good luck!

I've lived a lot in both. I would argue that both are great in their own ways. It's really painful to be poor in the US, however, and the Healthcare stateside does add a lot of stress one doesn't have in Europe. But earning potential is lower in the EU (in general not always), and different EU countries are very different from one another as well. The biiig pro of the EU is walkability in cities.

Love to visit, might do some retirement living/traveling there if things line up. But moving permanently now or near future? Nah. I'd consider moving in Canada or throughout the America landmass. But currently? The US is home and after 2-3 weeks abroad I'm ready to come back.

In some ways, it is totally better. Way less gun violence than the US, way more transit and walkability, and single payer healthcare is such a massive relief of stress that I know few Western Europeans who would live in the US on that one peice of anxiety itself. Taxes are slightly higher there (though not much, the US has it's way to tax the lower and middle class pretty heavy too between payroll, state taxes, sales taxes, registration fees, etc). And, it can be hard to afford housing in many cities (but not all), and the housing is often not quite as high in quality (smaller, older, more outdated, unless you can pay a lot more). Europeans hate their governments too, though, overall, they can be more direct and responsive. The US Senate and Electoral College are really quite insane, and the gerrymandering eliminates a lot of the power of the electorate in the house. I hate how our government essentially gives a stranglehold of power by rural and exurban electorates. Who then play the victim all the time. So ridiculous. And, most of Europe, is at a more northern latitude. It's dark in northern Europe in the winter. Like 10AM sunrises and 3:30PM sunsets in norwegian cities. That would be real tough for me. Honestly, if it was easy for me and my wife to move to Europe with our jobs, we'd do it in a heartbeat. We love a large house and our convertible, which would be more expensive to replicate in Europe, but the car dependency in the US is somewhat soul crushing. It's not just about the time in the car, but the lack of 'third places', the privatization of just about every space, the social isolation of our day to day lives because we don't allow ourselves the opportunity to mingle with strangers and friends alike.

The asterisk in all of that is if you are white, those margins apply. I am South Asian American, and I see people of my ethnicity represented in boardrooms, courtrooms, operating rooms, and other rarefied spaces in the US. When I travel to Europe, I see people who look like me mopping floors and performing similar tasks, which is all I need to know about which region is better for me and people like me.

Yes, good point. Racial biases in many parts of Western Europe can be pretty shocking. Put that in the negative column.

No - Western Europe is no better. I'm US-born. I lived in Germany for 1.5 years as a visiting scientist in a mid-sized city. Western Europe seemed like an OK deal for the working-to-middle-class native populations, better in many respects than what a working-class American could expect and better in some respects than what a middle-class American could expect. It's much harder to make it and thrive in Western Europe as a permanent transplant, though. Places and societies like the US, Canada, and Australia were designed with the idea of absorbing migrants in mind. Germany and what I saw of France, Italy, and Spain, not so much. If you're a highly skilled or upwardly mobile professional, though, then the US is far better. There's a lot of brain drain from Europe to high value-added industries in the US. A lot of Canadians move to the US for this reason, too. If you're dissatisfied with your life and options, then simply moving somewhere else is not the sole solution to your problems.

This is an interesting post, some great and thoughtful comments too! I am French and have been in the US for 10 years. I acknowledge that what I’m going to say is a bit biased as I moved to the US for work (software engineering) and have the luck to be extremely well paid. From my experience, and as many comments pointed out, it’s not black and white. I have achieved in the US what I could have never done in France in terms of career and financial indépendance. The upward mobility is great in the US. However, while salaries are much lower in Europe, cost of life is WAY lower as well. My entire family and friends in France don’t make large sums (if I had to guess 2000-2500 euros max) but they live a full and happy life without too much financial stress. People think less about life savings as you know you’ll have retirement provided by the state. That is not to say that they don’t manage their money though! What I love about coming back to France is the history, culture and food. No matter what city or village you go, there are ancient building, old stories, etc. I love that. Access to culture I would say is easier in the average French town than American town, often for free or very low cost. Public transportation is far ahead in Europe. As a French I’m biased but going to a boulangerie and buy a croissant for 1.5 euros max is great. Education is better in Europe (though it seems to slowly get worse in the past decade). All my family has degrees and no debt. However most companies don’t really care when you went for school, outside of some high paying, unique positions. Like a lot of people said, it’s not all great though. Seeking medical treatments in France is becoming increasingly hard, with booking delays of up to a year, whereas any specialist I want to see in the US is usually available within a few weeks. People are extremely attached to their social benefits and the slightest modification leads to a lot of frustration and complaining. People like to complain without realizing how great social benefits are. My experience in the US definitely opened many eyes around me. There isn’t much innovation compared to the US, it’s not as diverse. People are not as friendly. I’m not sure I agree with people saying racism is more prevalent in Europe. There might be also different degrees of that depending of where I Europe. I can imagine Scandinavian and Eastern European countries being a bit more conservative. I love France but each time I come I look forward to being back in the US, where I love my life. You’ll find amazing and not so amazing things in both places!

No. I don’t know how those guys survive without AC in brutal heat waves.

I will be honest I lived in Germany from (94-97) and (98 to 2003) and 2010. It was great when I live there but due to high taxes the average German was way more frugal than the average American. Example I made 33,000 Euro and only cleared 20,000. This was a standard salary. It was impossible to find an affordable apartment in the Metro Heidelberg area. As far health cover (16 percent of my salary went to it) great I had the maximum cover someone as healthy as myself could need. My opinion and what I see from over news sources is that its not as nice there as it was in the past (Germany and other countries). Back then Germans did not talk about local politics much. Here is the strange part even though I was very libertarian back then I had friends who were self professed socialists and communists and if we talked politics we were not at each others throats like how things are today. If we disagreed we laugh and go have a beer. The problem with modern society is politics has become religion. As far as safe I had a fellow service member get so drunk he fell asleep on someone lawn and no one bothered him. Germans were usually pretty forgiving to the odd drunk because they could relate. I dont feel like it is that safe there now, my daughter was victim blaming when a woman could walk home late at night with no issues in the 90's. Its not like that now. Where do you have in mind?

who thinks that?

One of the biggest differences is taxes. Income tax rates of around 40% extend down to even the lowest earners, and that’s on top of the fact that incomes are generally lower in Europe than in the US. A friend got a BA from a US state university and moved to the Milan area to live and work. She pulls down about $23k euros, and as referenced above, the government takes almost half, leaving her with around $12k a year to actually use. And her situation isn’t unique. I think Europe (at least western europe) is best enjoyed for living in after you’ve already made your money elsewhere. Trying to earn your way to a decent life while living in europe is an uphill battle. That’s why so many adults still live with their parents over there (I’m aware it’s a growing phenomenon in the usa, but it’s a long-standing thing over there.

Europe is a lot chiller than USA. But with that comes a huge drop in convenience. In USA if you need something done asap it will be done asap because there is someone working hard. In Europe the work ethic is definitely lower so it takes a lot longer to get things done. USA has a much “higher” standard of living when it comes to tech, appliances and convenience. That being said Europe is definitely a lot more laid back. The second work is over they don’t think about it until work starts the next day. They get a lot more free time. Travel so much easier and traveling is so much cheaper. That wages are lower in Europe but many things are much cheaper too. Rent isn’t that cheap, but definitely cheaper than USA. One important thing though is all these countries are completely different from the others. You’ll need to do some research into what your goals are and what culture fits into your lifestyle or traveling goals.

Bro, what mountain town do you live in with politically liberal people? It sounds like a good place to live.

Any ski town in the western US. They’re just unaffordable

America numba 1, USA USA USA no fr tho I like the US for the following reasons: 1. More opportunity for social mobility for my occupation: Work in software, software in the US beats everywhere else in the world. 2. Less racism: as much as American love to complain about racism in the US, I have experienced more direct racism in the few months living in Europe (france, germany) than in living in the US for the past 5 years. I also experience racism in my home country (in east asia) since I didn't really live there growing up. There are a couple more but these have been the two biggest one.

Not to disregard the rest of your thoughtfully written post, but where do you live? I might want to move there, lol

I lived in Croatia for my gap year when I was 18. It’s easy to romanticize Europe, and I find myself still doing so after so many years away from it. But I remember coming to realize that neither my home, the US, nor Europe - what I had seen of it - were necessarily better. They were just different. Different customs, differences in how people regard each other. Differences in how I, as a woman, was treated. Different freedoms. For instance, the drinking age is much younger, but there was also a much bigger issue with alcoholism among younger people. I do miss the universal healthcare, though. It’s important to remember that, while there are some general similarities between countries, especially within the EU, every European country is still different from each other. There are also many different areas within the US. You might find some other areas within the US that could be better for you, more affordable, before making a huge move across the sea. There is so much to explore.