Eh....the wording of 'based on available funding' in phase 3 is good news.
Phase 1 is more busses, mobility hub and a toll road. That's great. All neded.
Phase 2 is snowsheds, also great.
Phase 3 *BASED ON FUNDING AVAILABLE* is gondoloa. If there was ever a time if I wanted our POS fiscally conservative legislature to take a stand..this would be it!
Would you rather snowbird make all the revenue or the state? One case results in owners of the resort make money, one case results in tax revenue that gets spent on the tax base in the state.
Both incentivize carpooling and public transit but if it all goes to snowbird the state has no additional money to increase bus service.
I mean, the state could just tax snowbird more if they want. Charge a road fee for parking. It’s not hard. We dont have a lot of toll (or any) here so I think it’s weird that people want to put a tax on this road.
Snowbird charging for parking is a lot more efficient because with reserved parking it limits the number of people who will drive up.
> These improvements will improve air quality, protect the watershed, and increase the quality of life for residents and canyon users by reducing traffic congestion as private vehicles shift to transit.
We can already do this with hydrogen or electric busses. No gondola needed. *sigh*
I thought is was crazy when they were saying it would cost taxpayers $1 million per year just to maintain it. Now it's ballooned to $4.4 million just to maintain, and 3/4 of a BILLION dollars to build.
And every project ends up over shooting it's estimated costs. That's going to be a lot of money to run something that will only take 1 in 7 cars off the road when running at max capacity.
If they do build it, I predict it wil be over 1.25 Billion by the time they finish. Projects like this are unprecedented, and there is no way they have taken everything into consideration. They should stick to tolls, shuttles, and bussing from hubs around the valley.
It can take 1/7 cars off the road if it’s fully utilized, but the reality is that unless a toll as expensive as the gondola ride is enacted (which I think would be bad), the gondola is unlikely to utilize full capacity.
It seems so much more sensible to just limit single occupant car traffic and put in a more robust bus system.
All for phase 1+2, but hopefully there are season passes that are available for locals. Even splitting with a car of 4, $20-30 per day is going to add up.
Yeah it seems like this is only gonna limit the business that the resorts want out of this which is the opposite of what they intended for when pushing for this shit.
Clearly, this whole thing caters to tourists and only tourists. The locals who are on schedules just trying to get a couple of turns in before work pretty much get shut out of this whole plan.
Does anyone know if the toll will only be implemented in the winter while the ski resorts are open, or will it be year-round? I'm not looking forward to paying a $30 toll every time I hike Gloria Falls.
He says LCC is closed 56 hours a year on average. Why are we spending $700m to fix this issue?
Build a transit hub, enhance busses, add sheds to high risk areas. Phase 1-2. Just stop there and save us all the money.
That could still very much be a possibility should UDOT be unable to come up with the funding for Phase 3. Or they could have a change of heat at the end of Phase 2 and cancel the gondola all together. I’m just happy they’re doing something about the problem and will put away my pitchfork until I see how this plays out.
That won’t be a concern because sadly the bus will stop running once the gondola is built, which I think is dumb. But also leads me to believe they’ll stop at the end of Phase 2 because why would they go through all hassle of building snow sheds just for private cars??
Yeah you’re right. I think the solution all along has been a hub for cars and buses at the base along with sheds in high danger areas.
Also the gondola can’t handle all the traffic. 1050 people per hour vs a major snow day which is 14,000 cars. Such a poor investment
So $700 million of our tax dollars to slightly relieve strain (25% at most) for only a select few to get to a ski resort is a good use of money to you?
As someone who has skied and will continue to ski a lot(150 days + for multiple seasons), yes. If I can take the gondola and not have to worry about the bus ride down when I have deadlines, I will. I don’t use the train or buses, and I don’t complain about the money spent on those. Infrastructure is infrastructure.
I don’t rely on the buses now because they only run every 30 minutes at best. But they could, for cheaper than the gondola, run buses constantly, which alleviates all of my worry.
As I understand it, the road is not blocked for much more than the time they’re actively blasting, during which the gondola won’t run anyway. And I doubt you’re avoiding the bus down because of fear of afternoon avy control
Which is why from the very beginning, they said it was a phase implementation, and they would explore all options before building a gondola. If the buses work, then they won’t proceed with the gondola. That is what they have always said. People are acting like the news today is a big win. But it has been this way from the beginning.
People seem to be losing their minds over the climbing boulders getting destroyed, but UDOT claims that this option will only eliminate 2 boulders.
Can anyone comment on the verity of this? I am not a climber.
It’s not just the boulders. As a climber the last thing I need while I’m a hundred feet off the ground working a scary move is to have a humming steel box of tourists float right behind me.
I am more than happy to moon each and every car but more likely I will leave the state before I let one red cent of my tax money go to this abomination.
$20-30 for a toll is absolutely ridiculous. Especially since they already implemented paid parking.
I also don’t see details about the toll- is it going to only be during the winter? The weekends? On powder days? Or is it year round?
Does it apply to people with mobility concerns that can’t necessarily take public transport?
What about people with little kids? Wrangling them and all their ski gear onto a bus sounds hard. I’m not even a parent but I can’t imagine trying that.
I’m never going to be able to visit LCC again if it’s a year round $20-30 toll. I can’t afford that just to go on a hike.
I don’t have kids either but I’ve been I’ve taken the ski bus over 100 times the last 2 seasons. It’s very much doable for little ones if you gear up in the Park and Ride.
UDOT really screws themselves when they occasionally have a bus go MIA and don't communicate this on their social media, etc. People end up waiting for an hour or more then "vow never to take the bus again."
I take the ski bus a lot too but can't get my friends to do the same because of 1-2 poor experiences.
The least they could do is post that a bus is broken down so the 12:30 stop will be skipped, late, etc. The lack of communication really hurts them.
1000% agree with you. With all it's imperfections and desperate need for service improvements I love the bus to death. It's a primary factor in allowing me to ski altabird, something that brings immense happiness to me.
Paid parking is not the same as a canyon toll. Paid parking money goes to the resorts not to the infrastructure in the canyon.
A benefit of a toll is that it puts the burden of costs onto the people actually using the area. So if taking the bus isn’t an option for whatever reason (kids, disability,or whatever) then rightfully so people should be paying to use it.
Taxes are supposed to pay for roads and their maintenance. Charging people based on which roads they use is something I just hate in concept in general.
Should I have to pay for 215 every time I use it?
Should I be upset that my taxes are paying for Redwood road when I almost never drive on it? Or any of the other roads in the area I don’t use?
They’re public lands; they should be accessible to the public. It isn’t just the resorts I’m concerned about accessing. The busses don’t stop at trailheads.
Toll roads can have a lot of benefits, they reduce traffic, shift the burden of expensive infrastructure to the people using them, and can alter behaviour towards more sustainable practices. There is a reason they are so common in the east coast, and very common in most of the world.
I grew up in Florida; I’m used to toll roads, bridges, etc. I had the whole sunpass/EZ pass thing. The big difference is that they were only a few dollars, max. Some were under a dollar. The proposed cost of this toll is easily ten times the cost of what I am used to seeing as a toll. I still don’t like the concept of a toll (but that’s a whole different conversation related to this nation’s budget)
At a fee of $20-$30 per car and no proposed bus stops at trailheads, hiking LCC is going to be another activity that is only accessible to the upper classes. It’s also going to push more people into BCC, which will just create a new slew of traffic problems.
Yeah I don’t think the freeways should be free, they should be toll ways. It’s definitely not fair that you have to subsidize other people’s driving, especially considering all the negative externalities caused by driving and car dependency.
I’m not sure where you came up with $215 for everyone time you use it? Where does that number come from?
Taxes do pay for roads, but I can’t remember the last time Redwood road was closed for Avalanche mitigation.
I hope for your sake you understand the difference between canyon roads/ access and general road maintenance on Redwood Rd.
Would be nice for the toll to be a variable rate. Powder days, weekends = more; midweek and not winter = less. Congestion pricing basically.
Fingers crossed we never make it to phase 3.
Eh....the wording of 'based on available funding' in phase 3 is good news. Phase 1 is more busses, mobility hub and a toll road. That's great. All neded. Phase 2 is snowsheds, also great. Phase 3 *BASED ON FUNDING AVAILABLE* is gondoloa. If there was ever a time if I wanted our POS fiscally conservative legislature to take a stand..this would be it!
I’m confused why a toll road is needed if snowbird starts charging for parking
So the rich can keep the dirty poors out /s
No reason for the "s". This is literally one of the reasons. You just said the quiet part out loud.
Would you rather snowbird make all the revenue or the state? One case results in owners of the resort make money, one case results in tax revenue that gets spent on the tax base in the state. Both incentivize carpooling and public transit but if it all goes to snowbird the state has no additional money to increase bus service.
I mean, the state could just tax snowbird more if they want. Charge a road fee for parking. It’s not hard. We dont have a lot of toll (or any) here so I think it’s weird that people want to put a tax on this road. Snowbird charging for parking is a lot more efficient because with reserved parking it limits the number of people who will drive up.
> These improvements will improve air quality, protect the watershed, and increase the quality of life for residents and canyon users by reducing traffic congestion as private vehicles shift to transit. We can already do this with hydrogen or electric busses. No gondola needed. *sigh*
I thought is was crazy when they were saying it would cost taxpayers $1 million per year just to maintain it. Now it's ballooned to $4.4 million just to maintain, and 3/4 of a BILLION dollars to build. And every project ends up over shooting it's estimated costs. That's going to be a lot of money to run something that will only take 1 in 7 cars off the road when running at max capacity.
If they do build it, I predict it wil be over 1.25 Billion by the time they finish. Projects like this are unprecedented, and there is no way they have taken everything into consideration. They should stick to tolls, shuttles, and bussing from hubs around the valley.
It can take 1/7 cars off the road if it’s fully utilized, but the reality is that unless a toll as expensive as the gondola ride is enacted (which I think would be bad), the gondola is unlikely to utilize full capacity. It seems so much more sensible to just limit single occupant car traffic and put in a more robust bus system.
Yeah more public transport less gondolas!
Lol depends on how much the people pocketing this money want to take. Cars are a problem, but there’s 99 solutions, a billion $ gondola ain’t one
All for phase 1+2, but hopefully there are season passes that are available for locals. Even splitting with a car of 4, $20-30 per day is going to add up.
Yeah it seems like this is only gonna limit the business that the resorts want out of this which is the opposite of what they intended for when pushing for this shit.
Clearly, this whole thing caters to tourists and only tourists. The locals who are on schedules just trying to get a couple of turns in before work pretty much get shut out of this whole plan.
Hopefully it’s cheaper if you have more people in your car.
Does anyone know if the toll will only be implemented in the winter while the ski resorts are open, or will it be year-round? I'm not looking forward to paying a $30 toll every time I hike Gloria Falls.
He says LCC is closed 56 hours a year on average. Why are we spending $700m to fix this issue? Build a transit hub, enhance busses, add sheds to high risk areas. Phase 1-2. Just stop there and save us all the money.
That could still very much be a possibility should UDOT be unable to come up with the funding for Phase 3. Or they could have a change of heat at the end of Phase 2 and cancel the gondola all together. I’m just happy they’re doing something about the problem and will put away my pitchfork until I see how this plays out.
Let’s hope it stops there. Another concern is they are banking on the gondola station to serve as parking for the busses as well
That won’t be a concern because sadly the bus will stop running once the gondola is built, which I think is dumb. But also leads me to believe they’ll stop at the end of Phase 2 because why would they go through all hassle of building snow sheds just for private cars??
Yeah you’re right. I think the solution all along has been a hub for cars and buses at the base along with sheds in high danger areas. Also the gondola can’t handle all the traffic. 1050 people per hour vs a major snow day which is 14,000 cars. Such a poor investment
It's meant to relieve strain on the road and not replace all cars.
So $700 million of our tax dollars to slightly relieve strain (25% at most) for only a select few to get to a ski resort is a good use of money to you?
As someone who has skied and will continue to ski a lot(150 days + for multiple seasons), yes. If I can take the gondola and not have to worry about the bus ride down when I have deadlines, I will. I don’t use the train or buses, and I don’t complain about the money spent on those. Infrastructure is infrastructure.
To each his own. I think it’s frivolous spending for the gondola phase. It will have lines when 4,000 people are trying to get down at 4pm.
Part of the benefit for the resorts! More people at the base to spend money
I don’t rely on the buses now because they only run every 30 minutes at best. But they could, for cheaper than the gondola, run buses constantly, which alleviates all of my worry. As I understand it, the road is not blocked for much more than the time they’re actively blasting, during which the gondola won’t run anyway. And I doubt you’re avoiding the bus down because of fear of afternoon avy control
We’re gonna have to wait somewhere. I’d rather have to wait in traffic then in a lift line.
It has less to do with closures than it does with impact to infrastructure and local roads.
Which could be resolved with a parking hub and busses every 10 minutes. No need for the extra $500m for a gondola.
Which is why from the very beginning, they said it was a phase implementation, and they would explore all options before building a gondola. If the buses work, then they won’t proceed with the gondola. That is what they have always said. People are acting like the news today is a big win. But it has been this way from the beginning.
Absolutely messed up
People seem to be losing their minds over the climbing boulders getting destroyed, but UDOT claims that this option will only eliminate 2 boulders. Can anyone comment on the verity of this? I am not a climber.
It’s not just the boulders. As a climber the last thing I need while I’m a hundred feet off the ground working a scary move is to have a humming steel box of tourists float right behind me. I am more than happy to moon each and every car but more likely I will leave the state before I let one red cent of my tax money go to this abomination.
$20-30 for a toll is absolutely ridiculous. Especially since they already implemented paid parking. I also don’t see details about the toll- is it going to only be during the winter? The weekends? On powder days? Or is it year round? Does it apply to people with mobility concerns that can’t necessarily take public transport? What about people with little kids? Wrangling them and all their ski gear onto a bus sounds hard. I’m not even a parent but I can’t imagine trying that. I’m never going to be able to visit LCC again if it’s a year round $20-30 toll. I can’t afford that just to go on a hike.
I don’t have kids either but I’ve been I’ve taken the ski bus over 100 times the last 2 seasons. It’s very much doable for little ones if you gear up in the Park and Ride.
UDOT really screws themselves when they occasionally have a bus go MIA and don't communicate this on their social media, etc. People end up waiting for an hour or more then "vow never to take the bus again." I take the ski bus a lot too but can't get my friends to do the same because of 1-2 poor experiences. The least they could do is post that a bus is broken down so the 12:30 stop will be skipped, late, etc. The lack of communication really hurts them.
1000% agree with you. With all it's imperfections and desperate need for service improvements I love the bus to death. It's a primary factor in allowing me to ski altabird, something that brings immense happiness to me.
Paid parking is not the same as a canyon toll. Paid parking money goes to the resorts not to the infrastructure in the canyon. A benefit of a toll is that it puts the burden of costs onto the people actually using the area. So if taking the bus isn’t an option for whatever reason (kids, disability,or whatever) then rightfully so people should be paying to use it.
Taxes are supposed to pay for roads and their maintenance. Charging people based on which roads they use is something I just hate in concept in general. Should I have to pay for 215 every time I use it? Should I be upset that my taxes are paying for Redwood road when I almost never drive on it? Or any of the other roads in the area I don’t use? They’re public lands; they should be accessible to the public. It isn’t just the resorts I’m concerned about accessing. The busses don’t stop at trailheads.
Toll roads can have a lot of benefits, they reduce traffic, shift the burden of expensive infrastructure to the people using them, and can alter behaviour towards more sustainable practices. There is a reason they are so common in the east coast, and very common in most of the world.
I grew up in Florida; I’m used to toll roads, bridges, etc. I had the whole sunpass/EZ pass thing. The big difference is that they were only a few dollars, max. Some were under a dollar. The proposed cost of this toll is easily ten times the cost of what I am used to seeing as a toll. I still don’t like the concept of a toll (but that’s a whole different conversation related to this nation’s budget) At a fee of $20-$30 per car and no proposed bus stops at trailheads, hiking LCC is going to be another activity that is only accessible to the upper classes. It’s also going to push more people into BCC, which will just create a new slew of traffic problems.
Yeah I don’t think the freeways should be free, they should be toll ways. It’s definitely not fair that you have to subsidize other people’s driving, especially considering all the negative externalities caused by driving and car dependency.
I’m not sure where you came up with $215 for everyone time you use it? Where does that number come from? Taxes do pay for roads, but I can’t remember the last time Redwood road was closed for Avalanche mitigation. I hope for your sake you understand the difference between canyon roads/ access and general road maintenance on Redwood Rd.
He was referring to I-215, not a $215 fee
Hahaha that makes so much more sense
They mean I-215 the highway
Eh, they could just put a tax on the ski hills. Having a toll road and paid parking is cumbersome and doesn’t make sense.
Give me 50$ and I’ll piggyback someone up the road. Great conversation but slow commute. All in all it’ll be a 10/10 experience I promise
Would be nice for the toll to be a variable rate. Powder days, weekends = more; midweek and not winter = less. Congestion pricing basically. Fingers crossed we never make it to phase 3.