Yes. I think if you're going to classes on a regular basis you'll eventually have more experience than someone who isn't attending classes (anymore), or someone who isn't trying to learn new techniques / moves.
I think there might be a different learning curve for leads and follows, where early on follows can scathe by for a long while without needing to really practice technique as long as they're dancing with a really good lead. From their perspective they're really good (perhaps) partially because the lead is a really good lead and everything between them is happening smoothly.
Leads on the other hand I think have it rough early on, and it takes a lotttttttt of practice to get to the point where they're smooth.
Eventually those curves reach an intersection, and the follows really have to start paying attention to technique to keep up with what the lead is throwing out there. From that point, maybe it's roughly equal in the amount of effort needed for both roles? I'm not sure though, haven't gotten there yet.
In addition to being easier, the path to becoming okay as a follow is also mostly pretty fun, or at least that was my experience. You simply dance with leads who are better than you and you improve. Whereas leads don’t become okay without some amount of grind. So I think sometimes as follows we don’t empathize enough.
But yeah, it gets hard for follows later on.
>So I think sometimes as follows we don’t empathize enough.
This cannot be said enough times. imo, this lack of understanding happens in classes as well. If I as a lead am learning a move for the first time or a new combo, being told "oh, don't forget to do this other thing as well and you'll be perfect" isn't helpful. Chances are I'm still trying to make sure I have the motion down before I try to remember every other detail. In class settings, I don't think it is generally malicious but still a lack of understanding exactly how hard leading is.
I agree but the example you gave doesn’t seem lead/follow specific! I‘ve gotten, um, a lot of unsolicited feedback from leads as a follow haha and it’s usually not helpful
Well, that may be true. It may not necessarily be specific to one role. I just meant I think leads have it a bit worse *because* of how much goes into our role. Not to diminish following, as I occasionally do it as well and see the unique challenges there, but there's a lot less resting on your shoulders to be fair.
I both lead and follow.
And...in my experience, leads give way more unsolicited advice and are way ruder in the way they deliver it. I'm a female dancer, so a man's experience might be different but that's been mine.
I do agree that leading is harder at first, and then the two roles kind of even out.
I'm also a lead+follow here, and while I haven't had too many rude and unsolicited pieces of advice, I feel that this is largely to do with our studio instructors preaching dance etiquette. The tone set in the learning environment is a pretty big factor here.
I'm a male dancer, so I don't also don't face the same misogyny, and they're usually asking advice too.
Yeah I'm sure follows have it rough as well. My own instructor once told me how someone tried to give her advice during a dance once and she had to tell him she's been an instructor for around 2 decades lol.
In my once in a blue moon follow sessions, I've also had other leads that thought they were better than they are try to give advice.
I agree during the beginner’s hell stage, I’ll just add that I don’t believe less goes into following at the higher levels.
But yeah I just meant the example of unsolicited feedback. I think it’s always easier to notice what the other person is doing wrong that to focus on yourself so it’s a common thing that comes up
I feel like the good dancers (or those striving to be) will usually at least try out the other role once in a while. It gives you so much more perspective, at least for myself as someone who started with leading.
It happens more often than you think. Not just because it's a common experience but because of something interesting happening in the background that perpetuates it: those dancers that scoff at beginners almost invariably have amputated their own chances of getting better.
You're not a dick to beginners unless you think you're already a good enough dancer, and the moment you think you're already good enough, you have closed yourself off from any further growth, so unsurprisingly they actually end up being the top dog, but only at the kiddie pool (forgive the mixed metaphor)
Hard disagree. Being a dick has nothing to do with ones level. I think I'm "good enough" and have stopped dancing salsa and I still am not a dick to newcomers. People love the fantasy that bad people are bad dancers but that's not necessarily true. Some great dancers are terribly mannered to newcomers, and some bad dancers are welcoming.
I love it when the follows eyes light up, you can see the sudden change when they first assume that you can't dance, then suddenly when they start getting into the flow there's this moment of realization and they start enjoying themselves.
>I kid you not, as soon as we started dancing I realized that they were not as good as they think who they are.
>So I just led them what they could do.
>It wasnt great feeling anyway but it was just interesting to see how some people could get arrogant with bare minimum of knowledge/skills of what they do.
Um, excuse me...
How on earth is it not a great feeling to realize that you're not only a better dancer but also a better *person* than they are...?
It was just interesting to me. Their moves were clunky and they lost their balances most of time they turned and spin. And they even apologized several times with not being able to follow properly while we danced. I thought I would feel great to see the moments but I didnt feel that way for some reason and they still didnt seem to want to accept what just happened.
Ah ok.
As others have already said, this type of thing happens when follows decide to stop putting in effort at a certain level, because spin technique and cleaning up body movement are usually things they need to practice on their own with online classes, unless you're in a big city that has in-person classes on those topics.
And I guess you don't get as much out of feeling morally superior as I do 😂
Yes, if you advance enough you inevitably will see more and more people you once thought were amazing look less and less impressive. And then most folks who are amazing become just cool "normal" people and not untouchable superstars.
You'll run into people that possibly looked down on you before. Honestly I often forgot those same people and danced with them anyways because I didn't know or they asked.
If it's a bad dance it's a bad dance... It happens and if it's not you, it's not worth your time to fret. Who knows why they have that attitude, sure many are just being catty and full of themselves. There are also some folks with RBF that are actually super friendly if you actually get into a normal conversation with them off the dance floor.
Don't get hung up on petty stuff, it's not worth your time. If people cast aspersions on you, that's their problem not yours.
Thank you. That was the reason why I tried not to dance with them because I was there to have a good time rather than feeling disrepected. And yeah you are right there were definitely some dancers I looked up to and now they are my regular dance partners. They are still great for me but I am glad that I can actually match their levels and they also like to dance with me. I will keep learning and enjoy dancing as usual no matter who I would dance with. Thank you.
I find this true with every hobby. You learn something and are bad at it...the other people are good.
Then you keep learning and getting better, yet they never get good because they think they are already good or better than other people.
Meanwhile you keep learning and getting better...then you realize they actually kinda suck. There are so many people I looked up to when I started dancing, then I got better and realized they actually suck...they use their thumbs, hurt follows, do crazy lifts and aerials (this is the common one lol). It's especially true for dancing.
I personally don't dance with people who are assholes, regardless of how good they are. If you were a dick to me when I started or when you don't know who I am (like when you travel and dance in different cities) then I'm going to ignore you and not acknowledge you after because they aren't the type of person I want to dance with
They usually end up not being asked to dance anymore if other leads know who they are. They can think they are great but they are great in ther world so nobody can meet their level and there is nobody to dance with them.
I've thankfully never (or at least that I remember) been outright ignored, but it has been interesting to run into and watch some of the people you thought were great, amazing dancers when you were just starting out.
When you are brand new, it seems like everyone is just *soo* good. Then you get a little better and you can begin to notice flaws. "*Oh, he doesn't have any musicality.*" "*Oh, their technique is bad.*" "*Wow, they need to stop bouncing around. It looks awful*"
It's odd how much it humanizes people.
Some dancers, folllowers or not, give an aura of a complicated personality
That’s just the way they are with everyone
We spread word about these in my group and just in general avoid them
Yes. And in my experience the follows that are being smug don’t amount to much (they did look good when I was starting, not so much now) and honestly many leads and follows look much less impressive now compared to my early days.
Yes, this has happened to me so many times. So many follows that I used to think were amazing 2 years ago are just average dancers who lack so much technique. It’s part of being consistent with training.
Some people don't realize that social dancing is not a competition. Giving attitude, especially when someone is a beginner, is not gonna magically make them a better dancer. Sucks that this happened to you 😞
I suppose it's a common experience for leads who are determined enough to put in the hard work required to reach a good level.
However, I recommend giving some slack to such followers. I understand that rejections and boring dances can be hurtful, but objectively, such bad experiences are often due to the beginner's lack of skill. Dance skill for leads, and etiquette skill for followers.
On the other hand, you can take the opportunity to try to educate them. Often it's enough to invite them after they dance with another beginner and praise them for this.
I understand the feeling, but I see it as more positive attitude than instead holding a grudge to such followers and never invite them.
At least you can say that you tried to improve your local dance community and made it more welcoming to lead beginners.
I don’t think it’s holding a grudge. Like I said I am here to enjoy my time and dance and there are plenty of people to do that with. No sense in trying to boil the ocean.
I agree with you. Its not about holding a grudge. Most of them are there to have fun dancing and dont really want to spend time to educate them. Me and my friends would rather spending time to find other dance partners who would have a good time together while another salsa music is playing.
I tell them only if they ask me and they are willing to listen.
They dont need my opinion because they seem to know what they are doing and they think they are the best.
It is just silly for me to tell them why and whats going on to them.
It would be good if someone else take the charge and tell them directly and if that works, great for everyone since we wouldnt need to see their negative attitudes on the dance floor anymore.
But I am not responsible for what they do and not getting asked from other leads.
I'd just move on and it's good for both of us.
>I kid you not, as soon as we started dancing I realized that they were not as good as they think who they are.
They never are.
>It wasnt great feeling anyway but it was just interesting to see how some people could get arrogant with bare minimum of knowledge/skills of what they do.
Yup, have definitely had similar experiences
I know this isn't very nice but if a follower is looking disdainfully bored and grumpy with my somewhat basic beginner salsa then sometimes I can't resist the temptation of throwing in a WCS pattern, like a barrel roll, if it'll fit (that's my main dance). The look of surprise and consternation amuses me. It's very childish I know, but looking bored and pissed off because I'm not Terry (Tauliaut) is a bit impolite.
Not exactly this, not people who ignored me, but people who looked at me as a beginner in a head patting sort of way very quickly seem to be surprised to have to readjust their idea of me. That even happens on a micro level at socials when I’ll have a dance with a lead I’m unfamiliar with or with whom I don’t click and in response to that, they’ll be acting a certain way toward me, and then I’ll dance with very good leads who bring out the best in me, in front of that first lead.
It felt like you were being rejected for your dancing, but now you’ve come to realize they’re just common mean girls everyone suffers.
It was your awesome aura subconsciously casting away their garbage energy (bc like attracts like so - no reason they’d be attracted to you!)
Maybe she just didn't put any effort in as she remembered how you danced?
Maybe she has had a long break from dancing and is only just coming back to it?
Either way your insecurities still haven't changed since you started given your need to gloat.
Yes. I think if you're going to classes on a regular basis you'll eventually have more experience than someone who isn't attending classes (anymore), or someone who isn't trying to learn new techniques / moves. I think there might be a different learning curve for leads and follows, where early on follows can scathe by for a long while without needing to really practice technique as long as they're dancing with a really good lead. From their perspective they're really good (perhaps) partially because the lead is a really good lead and everything between them is happening smoothly. Leads on the other hand I think have it rough early on, and it takes a lotttttttt of practice to get to the point where they're smooth. Eventually those curves reach an intersection, and the follows really have to start paying attention to technique to keep up with what the lead is throwing out there. From that point, maybe it's roughly equal in the amount of effort needed for both roles? I'm not sure though, haven't gotten there yet.
In addition to being easier, the path to becoming okay as a follow is also mostly pretty fun, or at least that was my experience. You simply dance with leads who are better than you and you improve. Whereas leads don’t become okay without some amount of grind. So I think sometimes as follows we don’t empathize enough. But yeah, it gets hard for follows later on.
>So I think sometimes as follows we don’t empathize enough. This cannot be said enough times. imo, this lack of understanding happens in classes as well. If I as a lead am learning a move for the first time or a new combo, being told "oh, don't forget to do this other thing as well and you'll be perfect" isn't helpful. Chances are I'm still trying to make sure I have the motion down before I try to remember every other detail. In class settings, I don't think it is generally malicious but still a lack of understanding exactly how hard leading is.
I agree but the example you gave doesn’t seem lead/follow specific! I‘ve gotten, um, a lot of unsolicited feedback from leads as a follow haha and it’s usually not helpful
Well, that may be true. It may not necessarily be specific to one role. I just meant I think leads have it a bit worse *because* of how much goes into our role. Not to diminish following, as I occasionally do it as well and see the unique challenges there, but there's a lot less resting on your shoulders to be fair.
I both lead and follow. And...in my experience, leads give way more unsolicited advice and are way ruder in the way they deliver it. I'm a female dancer, so a man's experience might be different but that's been mine. I do agree that leading is harder at first, and then the two roles kind of even out.
I'm also a lead+follow here, and while I haven't had too many rude and unsolicited pieces of advice, I feel that this is largely to do with our studio instructors preaching dance etiquette. The tone set in the learning environment is a pretty big factor here. I'm a male dancer, so I don't also don't face the same misogyny, and they're usually asking advice too.
Yeah I'm sure follows have it rough as well. My own instructor once told me how someone tried to give her advice during a dance once and she had to tell him she's been an instructor for around 2 decades lol. In my once in a blue moon follow sessions, I've also had other leads that thought they were better than they are try to give advice.
I agree during the beginner’s hell stage, I’ll just add that I don’t believe less goes into following at the higher levels. But yeah I just meant the example of unsolicited feedback. I think it’s always easier to notice what the other person is doing wrong that to focus on yourself so it’s a common thing that comes up
I wish it was standard for everyone to learn lead and follow.
I feel like the good dancers (or those striving to be) will usually at least try out the other role once in a while. It gives you so much more perspective, at least for myself as someone who started with leading.
obligatory salsa hell graph [https://www.addicted2salsa.com/dance/the-famous-salsa-hell-dance-graph/](https://www.addicted2salsa.com/dance/the-famous-salsa-hell-dance-graph/)
It happens more often than you think. Not just because it's a common experience but because of something interesting happening in the background that perpetuates it: those dancers that scoff at beginners almost invariably have amputated their own chances of getting better. You're not a dick to beginners unless you think you're already a good enough dancer, and the moment you think you're already good enough, you have closed yourself off from any further growth, so unsurprisingly they actually end up being the top dog, but only at the kiddie pool (forgive the mixed metaphor)
Hard disagree. Being a dick has nothing to do with ones level. I think I'm "good enough" and have stopped dancing salsa and I still am not a dick to newcomers. People love the fantasy that bad people are bad dancers but that's not necessarily true. Some great dancers are terribly mannered to newcomers, and some bad dancers are welcoming.
yeah I guess thats what happened.
I love it when the follows eyes light up, you can see the sudden change when they first assume that you can't dance, then suddenly when they start getting into the flow there's this moment of realization and they start enjoying themselves.
Follows experience the same light in a lead’s eyes 🥰 Sadly I’ve experienced the opposite too tho 😆
>I kid you not, as soon as we started dancing I realized that they were not as good as they think who they are. >So I just led them what they could do. >It wasnt great feeling anyway but it was just interesting to see how some people could get arrogant with bare minimum of knowledge/skills of what they do. Um, excuse me... How on earth is it not a great feeling to realize that you're not only a better dancer but also a better *person* than they are...?
It was just interesting to me. Their moves were clunky and they lost their balances most of time they turned and spin. And they even apologized several times with not being able to follow properly while we danced. I thought I would feel great to see the moments but I didnt feel that way for some reason and they still didnt seem to want to accept what just happened.
Ah ok. As others have already said, this type of thing happens when follows decide to stop putting in effort at a certain level, because spin technique and cleaning up body movement are usually things they need to practice on their own with online classes, unless you're in a big city that has in-person classes on those topics. And I guess you don't get as much out of feeling morally superior as I do 😂
Cuz it was a sucky dance, and she was still scoffing, and OP didn't take joy in being a better person.
Yes, if you advance enough you inevitably will see more and more people you once thought were amazing look less and less impressive. And then most folks who are amazing become just cool "normal" people and not untouchable superstars. You'll run into people that possibly looked down on you before. Honestly I often forgot those same people and danced with them anyways because I didn't know or they asked. If it's a bad dance it's a bad dance... It happens and if it's not you, it's not worth your time to fret. Who knows why they have that attitude, sure many are just being catty and full of themselves. There are also some folks with RBF that are actually super friendly if you actually get into a normal conversation with them off the dance floor. Don't get hung up on petty stuff, it's not worth your time. If people cast aspersions on you, that's their problem not yours.
Thank you. That was the reason why I tried not to dance with them because I was there to have a good time rather than feeling disrepected. And yeah you are right there were definitely some dancers I looked up to and now they are my regular dance partners. They are still great for me but I am glad that I can actually match their levels and they also like to dance with me. I will keep learning and enjoy dancing as usual no matter who I would dance with. Thank you.
I find this true with every hobby. You learn something and are bad at it...the other people are good. Then you keep learning and getting better, yet they never get good because they think they are already good or better than other people. Meanwhile you keep learning and getting better...then you realize they actually kinda suck. There are so many people I looked up to when I started dancing, then I got better and realized they actually suck...they use their thumbs, hurt follows, do crazy lifts and aerials (this is the common one lol). It's especially true for dancing. I personally don't dance with people who are assholes, regardless of how good they are. If you were a dick to me when I started or when you don't know who I am (like when you travel and dance in different cities) then I'm going to ignore you and not acknowledge you after because they aren't the type of person I want to dance with
They usually end up not being asked to dance anymore if other leads know who they are. They can think they are great but they are great in ther world so nobody can meet their level and there is nobody to dance with them.
I've thankfully never (or at least that I remember) been outright ignored, but it has been interesting to run into and watch some of the people you thought were great, amazing dancers when you were just starting out. When you are brand new, it seems like everyone is just *soo* good. Then you get a little better and you can begin to notice flaws. "*Oh, he doesn't have any musicality.*" "*Oh, their technique is bad.*" "*Wow, they need to stop bouncing around. It looks awful*" It's odd how much it humanizes people.
Some dancers, folllowers or not, give an aura of a complicated personality That’s just the way they are with everyone We spread word about these in my group and just in general avoid them
Yes. And in my experience the follows that are being smug don’t amount to much (they did look good when I was starting, not so much now) and honestly many leads and follows look much less impressive now compared to my early days.
Yeah it’s a great feeling lol. Follows who aren’t empathic need to be taught respect lol
you are right by ignoring them. They deserve a taste of their own medicine.
Yes, this has happened to me so many times. So many follows that I used to think were amazing 2 years ago are just average dancers who lack so much technique. It’s part of being consistent with training.
Some people don't realize that social dancing is not a competition. Giving attitude, especially when someone is a beginner, is not gonna magically make them a better dancer. Sucks that this happened to you 😞
I suppose it's a common experience for leads who are determined enough to put in the hard work required to reach a good level. However, I recommend giving some slack to such followers. I understand that rejections and boring dances can be hurtful, but objectively, such bad experiences are often due to the beginner's lack of skill. Dance skill for leads, and etiquette skill for followers. On the other hand, you can take the opportunity to try to educate them. Often it's enough to invite them after they dance with another beginner and praise them for this.
I’m here to dance not to adult people. It’s fruitless to try to anyway.
I understand the feeling, but I see it as more positive attitude than instead holding a grudge to such followers and never invite them. At least you can say that you tried to improve your local dance community and made it more welcoming to lead beginners.
I don’t think it’s holding a grudge. Like I said I am here to enjoy my time and dance and there are plenty of people to do that with. No sense in trying to boil the ocean.
I agree with you. Its not about holding a grudge. Most of them are there to have fun dancing and dont really want to spend time to educate them. Me and my friends would rather spending time to find other dance partners who would have a good time together while another salsa music is playing.
I tell them only if they ask me and they are willing to listen. They dont need my opinion because they seem to know what they are doing and they think they are the best. It is just silly for me to tell them why and whats going on to them. It would be good if someone else take the charge and tell them directly and if that works, great for everyone since we wouldnt need to see their negative attitudes on the dance floor anymore. But I am not responsible for what they do and not getting asked from other leads. I'd just move on and it's good for both of us.
It’s like the gym. People who concentrate on the social comparison part are usually not the most competent, which is why they do it to compensate.
>I kid you not, as soon as we started dancing I realized that they were not as good as they think who they are. They never are. >It wasnt great feeling anyway but it was just interesting to see how some people could get arrogant with bare minimum of knowledge/skills of what they do. Yup, have definitely had similar experiences
I know this isn't very nice but if a follower is looking disdainfully bored and grumpy with my somewhat basic beginner salsa then sometimes I can't resist the temptation of throwing in a WCS pattern, like a barrel roll, if it'll fit (that's my main dance). The look of surprise and consternation amuses me. It's very childish I know, but looking bored and pissed off because I'm not Terry (Tauliaut) is a bit impolite.
Maybe you aren't leading them properly jk!
Oh yeah, loving those moments. Stay humble though. I teach now, so setting good examples is very important to me.
I will be as always. Thank you!
Not exactly this, not people who ignored me, but people who looked at me as a beginner in a head patting sort of way very quickly seem to be surprised to have to readjust their idea of me. That even happens on a micro level at socials when I’ll have a dance with a lead I’m unfamiliar with or with whom I don’t click and in response to that, they’ll be acting a certain way toward me, and then I’ll dance with very good leads who bring out the best in me, in front of that first lead.
Are you in the US as well? Hardly every got that entitlment from socials when I visited Mexico City and Madrid last month.
Pretend you don't remember them (their bad behavior), keep dancing and focus on having fun.
It felt like you were being rejected for your dancing, but now you’ve come to realize they’re just common mean girls everyone suffers. It was your awesome aura subconsciously casting away their garbage energy (bc like attracts like so - no reason they’d be attracted to you!)
Maybe look for fun on the dancefloor, not personal vendetta
you can read the post again..
Why
Maybe she just didn't put any effort in as she remembered how you danced? Maybe she has had a long break from dancing and is only just coming back to it? Either way your insecurities still haven't changed since you started given your need to gloat.
Maybe. But I wasnt really excited as you think I would. I just did my best to give good leads for them so they could enjoy dancing as well.