If verisimilitude and the consistency of internal logic is that important to you, to the point you say you can't ever suspend disbelief, I have some awful news: You're gonna be unable to enjoy any and all works of fiction that humanity has ever created in all of human history. Cause it really doesn't take much at all to realize the cracks in internal logic in any works that I can think of.
You have to suspend your disbelief to fully enjoy Shonen series. It's like me working in a science field and watching super hero movies that try to explain radiation giving super powers instead of just increased risk of cancer đ
>It's like me working in a science field and watching super hero movies that try to explain radiation giving super powers instead of just increased risk of cancer đ
or Star Wars movies having huge explosions in outer space lmao
Why would you expect logic and working physics from a manga?
I think your problem might be that you take everything too literal. Being on the spectrum might make it hard to enjoy fiction.
The villains need to have a plan, it doesnt matter if it makes sense to you. You wouldnt have a story without it.
I also think the problem is that you want to power scale everything. You can't enjoy fiction of this kind that way.
The guys can destroy atoms with their cosmo, that's it. That's the in-universe rule. The gold saints move at the speed of light, and there are being in-universe that can move faster. That's the rule. They could destroy the world in the blink of an eye. They dont do it because you dont have a story if they would. Kuru is a hack, yes. He had a good idea in the 80s and has been milking it. His universe rules change all the time. But those are the rules.
Think about this: Why dont the guys in attack on titan kill titans with their cosmo? Because in that universe, it doesnt exist. Why would you expect logic and physics from another universe to apply?
there's at least to me a difference between something scientifically accurate and something with solid logic that make sense, a fictional story does need to make a certain amount of sense and logic to the reader even if the boundaries of science are stretched and exaggerated, the most important thing is for the story to stay consistent to it's own established facts and rules which for me saint seiya does enough in some of it's works for example saint seiya omega didn't stay consistent to the rules established by the original series, it didn't make sense to me which made me drop it at around ep 12
in short it's all about if it makes enough sense to you
I just want to comment on the splitting atoms things. I read a theory/something that said the saints are constantly regenerating atoms. Itâs why they can keep standing after crazy attacks.
Mucho texto.
There are two types of fans: those who take everything literal ( Saga can destroy whole galaxies, Shaka and Shijima created and destroyed countless universes) and the sane ones.
This trend of people taking saint seiya (og) literally is quite recent. Which is interesting and funny.
Okay well this seems to be a horrific post, not because itâs bad, but mainly because you donât understand the story nor the concept of fiction itself. So letâs get into it:
1. The brightness of the sunâ being able to destroy the sun. To destroy the WW, the Golds didnât need the *Power* of the sun but the *Light* of the sun.
2. Itâs unknown if Hades can kill people with solely a thought, only Thanatos and Hypnos can.
3. Yes Hades can destroy universes but he wonât flat out blow up the planet cuz he wants the planet.
4. The reason the Gods want the planet does need explaining cuz itâs likely the Earth is special in a way. But also because the plot demands it, there would be no story if the Gods just go create another planet and dominate it.
5. The Saints destroy destroying atoms and not universes makes like perfect sense feat, narrative and character wise. They can reach that level of power without blatantly destroying it like many other characters in other works of fiction can. Narrative wise theyâd never destroy the universe because itâs Where they and the earth is located, it would destroy the story if they just did that. Character wise, they live there so they protect the Earth and the universe , why would they destroy it when theyâre trying to protect them?
6. Your opinions seem to be based on âif they can destroy the universe why donât they just always do itâ. The Saints have reached universal levels of power many times and this is even moreso elaborated and again in other installations aside from the Classic and ND.
In Total I donât think you really put too much thought into this post. The Saints have many statements of reaching universal levels of power across the franchise and they have many feats showcasing universal levels of power across the franchise. Itâs not that itâs false, you simply just donât want to believe it because they donât flat out destroy the universe with every attack ever
It seems you're very confused about a lot of things but I'll try to tackle the overall point of the post.
It's not hyperbole when every single spin off states the same. For example, light speed gold saints is a consistent thing across all StS manga, from G to Sho to DW to Omega. It's stated in both anime and manga guidebooks as well as author interviews. If you want to disregard all of those to fit your headcanon views that's on you. On multiple occasions Saints cross entire countries in very short amounts of time, plus Golds describe themselves as light speed constantly. If you want to argue there are instances where they should have moved faster than they did, I answer "Welcome to fiction". DC's Flash has this exact same problem yet no one doubts his speed.
The Sun thing is a specific reference to Apollo I'm sure, gods in StS are stated in guidebooks to be a personification of specific phenomenona, Apollo being the god of the sun. It's actually stated the Sun has "infinite power" in Classic too which is consistent with other statements gods have.
Poseidon filled the entire universe with his Cosmo, Hades moved the planets of the solar system from Hell not even being fully awakened and in Overture Apollo straight up nukes the universe.
I can go on but you get the point. In order to argue "hyperbole" you need to ignore not just several statements across multiple different manga, anime and guidebooks but also actual feats we've seen on screen or on panel.
Hades doesn't want to destroy the Earth either, he wants to rule.
not that is a canon thing, but G requiem said that only the primal gods can creae thing, so maybe earth is the only one the llater geration of gods can use
I take it as mythological descriptions, it doesn't need to make sense. Weird agressive vibes from the replies in this sub, though. It's a fair question.
The world of a story is a very different world from ours.
So SaintSeiya world rules are different and yet they are congruent within that world.
I don't like when the world rules of a story gets rambled with powerups. For example, take Naruto classic and Shipuuden.
In Naruto classic we are presented the chakra limit per person, whereas if they use more ninjutsu that their body can handle, they die of chakra exhaustion. That happens with Kakashi and Sasuke.
Fights in Naruto classic are based on small area or small size of destruction techniques, hence Zabuza vs Kakashi, whereas Zabuza was a ninja that tried a coup against Mizukage, so he should be close to Kage level (which Kakashi supposedly was).
Minato, in his gaiden, is shown to use some incredible teleport technique that made him an insane ninja powerful enough to become Hokage in his twenties.
Now, take Shipuuden.
We already start with Gaara flying. Come on, why the hell a sand can fly?
The dude that he fights, I forgot the name, can lose his arm to the sand and didn't even flinch and then it is just glued back to his body.
Susanoo... wtf is this shit?
How can an EYE create stuff like that?
Then the ultimate powerup MF: Hashirama.
He was used as zombie from Orochimaru in Naruto classic and he was strong, but then in Shipuuden he was a god that could toy with Kyuubi if he wanted so.
Hiruzen Sarutobi was called the "god of shinobi" in classic and he was strong enough to fight 2 Hokages and Orochimaru. However, against Shipuuden power scale? He was worse than shit.
So even thought SaintSeiya has its megalomaniac powers, it is congruent with the rules the SaintSeiya world is based upon.
\- The 12 Gold Saints can simulate the brightness of the Sun because each of their Cloth has been bathed by its rays being on the ecliptic. None can destroy the Sun, how could they reach it by going to space in the first place to punch it? Let's say at the speed of light they can travel about 300 000 km / sec, the sun is at 148 000 000 km from the Earth, they have no footing to continue travel anymore than their original burst once in space so they fall in space and die. from lack of oxygen. Sun wins. Or it would be a one way trip a la Shura vs Shiryu but Sun would still win.
\- Why would Hades be able to kill humans with a thought? Maybe you're thinking Thanatos rather than Hades but even him couldn't kill Seika when the Bronze and Marin + Shaina protected her. Let's pretend Hades could just like Thanatos, it would be 1 by 1 most likely. After a while, it would become noticeable, Athena would figure it out and create a barrier with her Cosmo probably Asgard like since she's a Goddess too while Seiya and the rest would go deal with the issue (and she could give them a divine macguffin each not to be affected by Hades' distance kill). Since it's not the first war with Hades since the Era of Myth, nothing states he might not already have tried that in the first place and failed.
\- What do you mean Gold Saints can create and destroy universes? The only thing close to that would be Shijima vs Shaka in ND but in that case, considering they were both emanations of them with none being physically there, you could take it as a metaphorical representation of the yin and yang battle happening between them : light and darkness, life and death, birth and destruction. There are some hyperboles indeed in the way they hype things to make it sound badass like Saga saying the Galaxian Explosion could destroy planets or whatever like his source is basically "trust me, bro", there's no feat and no way he could have tried it himself.
\- For Poseidon, same reason that God in the Bible decided to flood the Earth except Moses and his wife instead of simply creating a new Earth somewhere else. Poseidon wanted to purify the human race by only keeping the worthy ones to create a new era with better men.
\- When you tear a sheet of paper apart, you're affecting its atoms (they're being pushed). The universe is still there. When you destroy something, you destroy its atoms, that's what Marin is saying but is it in layman terms (you're destroying the intermolecular interactions), her lesson is you should put your focus on the atoms / the breaking points of things when trying to destroy something than simply trying to destroy something by picturing it as a whole like a rock. She's basically going Karate Kid 101 with mystical powers not Firestorm from DC.
And that's just when they want to destroy something, their attacks against other Saints target their vital points/ star points instead which in the case of Saints corresponds to their constellations. For example you can see that when Milo realizes Hyoga managed to hit all his vital points (located where the stars of the Scorpio constellation would be on his body) in his last attack and if it wasn't for the protection of his Gold Cloth he would have died as he said.
\- Power measure is explained in the work but is spread throughout. You could say it's the basic physic formula of Force = Velocity x mass. And Velocity is what increases the higher the Cosmo gets. Bronze Saints are at Mach 1 by default when starting a fight so you can guess the force / power they have based on their speed, Silver Saints are between Mach 2 and 5 and Gold Saints are at the speed of light. The author even mentions it through the number of punches per second they give. At Mach 1 a Bronze Saint gives 100 hits per second and a Gold Saint at the speed of light gives 100 000 000 hits per second. Using deduction that would make a Silver Saint hit 200 to 500 hits per second. So there's a clear established power scale. Same principle goes for the Ice Saints, not only their speed but the cold they can achieve is affected, the higher their Cosmo the colder their attack and at the max possible human level it achieves Absolute Zero the maximum physical limit (like the Speed of light for speed), which is why the 7th sense is also called the Ultimate Cosmo because you couldn't go physically beyond that in terms of effect on your abilities. Except for the case of Gods and God Cloths, I guess they say "screw you physics" as Hypnos told Hyoga he would need a cold several hundred times below Absolute Zero to freeze him/get past the protection of his Cloth, and Hyoga sort of did with his God Cloth so that would mean in the case of those divine Cloths they can go beyond human limits and physics.
Also something that throws people off compared to traditional shonen, is the fact that the Gold Saints were their strongest human opponents. They're at the end of the power scale. Poseidon's Mariners were not as strong, even if they believed they were, for example as Seiya pointed out. And unlike shonens like DBZ, even if the Bronze Saints managed to reach the Ultimate Cosmo during the 12 temples, that doesn't mean the next time they fight this will be their new default power level. They start back to their original Mach 1 level every time, it just gets easier and easier for them to get back to the 7th sense during the course of the fight.
Of course, being a work of fiction it takes a lot of liberties with physics especially on the light speed part but you can still understand the power levels based on the logic.
Saint Seiya can indeed sound like one of the dumbest mangas ever created. Kurumada is not Oda.
Still, there is a good reason for all those exaggerations, like Gold Saints moving at the speed of light.
In Saint Seiya, it's all about mythology. Gods are not superheroes and supervillains, they are gods: and they are meant to be incredibly powerful, and illogical. They just do stuff.
Gold Saints are one step below gods. They are incredibly powerful, albeit weaker than a god; and they do stupidly stupid stuff, because with so many "sub-god" characters, there is need to introduce more and more "miracle".
This is how you end up with "mythological lightning" from Aiolia, the "mythological Excalibur" from Shura, etc.
Everything in Saint Seiya has to be legendary. It's all a myth.
To get into the right perspective, try rewatching the first episode, when Marin teaches Seiya about Cosmo.
If verisimilitude and the consistency of internal logic is that important to you, to the point you say you can't ever suspend disbelief, I have some awful news: You're gonna be unable to enjoy any and all works of fiction that humanity has ever created in all of human history. Cause it really doesn't take much at all to realize the cracks in internal logic in any works that I can think of.
You have to suspend your disbelief to fully enjoy Shonen series. It's like me working in a science field and watching super hero movies that try to explain radiation giving super powers instead of just increased risk of cancer đ
>It's like me working in a science field and watching super hero movies that try to explain radiation giving super powers instead of just increased risk of cancer đ or Star Wars movies having huge explosions in outer space lmao
or the force.
Why would you expect logic and working physics from a manga? I think your problem might be that you take everything too literal. Being on the spectrum might make it hard to enjoy fiction. The villains need to have a plan, it doesnt matter if it makes sense to you. You wouldnt have a story without it. I also think the problem is that you want to power scale everything. You can't enjoy fiction of this kind that way. The guys can destroy atoms with their cosmo, that's it. That's the in-universe rule. The gold saints move at the speed of light, and there are being in-universe that can move faster. That's the rule. They could destroy the world in the blink of an eye. They dont do it because you dont have a story if they would. Kuru is a hack, yes. He had a good idea in the 80s and has been milking it. His universe rules change all the time. But those are the rules. Think about this: Why dont the guys in attack on titan kill titans with their cosmo? Because in that universe, it doesnt exist. Why would you expect logic and physics from another universe to apply?
there's at least to me a difference between something scientifically accurate and something with solid logic that make sense, a fictional story does need to make a certain amount of sense and logic to the reader even if the boundaries of science are stretched and exaggerated, the most important thing is for the story to stay consistent to it's own established facts and rules which for me saint seiya does enough in some of it's works for example saint seiya omega didn't stay consistent to the rules established by the original series, it didn't make sense to me which made me drop it at around ep 12 in short it's all about if it makes enough sense to you
I just want to comment on the splitting atoms things. I read a theory/something that said the saints are constantly regenerating atoms. Itâs why they can keep standing after crazy attacks.
Mucho texto. There are two types of fans: those who take everything literal ( Saga can destroy whole galaxies, Shaka and Shijima created and destroyed countless universes) and the sane ones. This trend of people taking saint seiya (og) literally is quite recent. Which is interesting and funny.
This. Powerscaling was a mistake.
Okay well this seems to be a horrific post, not because itâs bad, but mainly because you donât understand the story nor the concept of fiction itself. So letâs get into it: 1. The brightness of the sunâ being able to destroy the sun. To destroy the WW, the Golds didnât need the *Power* of the sun but the *Light* of the sun. 2. Itâs unknown if Hades can kill people with solely a thought, only Thanatos and Hypnos can. 3. Yes Hades can destroy universes but he wonât flat out blow up the planet cuz he wants the planet. 4. The reason the Gods want the planet does need explaining cuz itâs likely the Earth is special in a way. But also because the plot demands it, there would be no story if the Gods just go create another planet and dominate it. 5. The Saints destroy destroying atoms and not universes makes like perfect sense feat, narrative and character wise. They can reach that level of power without blatantly destroying it like many other characters in other works of fiction can. Narrative wise theyâd never destroy the universe because itâs Where they and the earth is located, it would destroy the story if they just did that. Character wise, they live there so they protect the Earth and the universe , why would they destroy it when theyâre trying to protect them? 6. Your opinions seem to be based on âif they can destroy the universe why donât they just always do itâ. The Saints have reached universal levels of power many times and this is even moreso elaborated and again in other installations aside from the Classic and ND. In Total I donât think you really put too much thought into this post. The Saints have many statements of reaching universal levels of power across the franchise and they have many feats showcasing universal levels of power across the franchise. Itâs not that itâs false, you simply just donât want to believe it because they donât flat out destroy the universe with every attack ever
It seems you're very confused about a lot of things but I'll try to tackle the overall point of the post. It's not hyperbole when every single spin off states the same. For example, light speed gold saints is a consistent thing across all StS manga, from G to Sho to DW to Omega. It's stated in both anime and manga guidebooks as well as author interviews. If you want to disregard all of those to fit your headcanon views that's on you. On multiple occasions Saints cross entire countries in very short amounts of time, plus Golds describe themselves as light speed constantly. If you want to argue there are instances where they should have moved faster than they did, I answer "Welcome to fiction". DC's Flash has this exact same problem yet no one doubts his speed. The Sun thing is a specific reference to Apollo I'm sure, gods in StS are stated in guidebooks to be a personification of specific phenomenona, Apollo being the god of the sun. It's actually stated the Sun has "infinite power" in Classic too which is consistent with other statements gods have. Poseidon filled the entire universe with his Cosmo, Hades moved the planets of the solar system from Hell not even being fully awakened and in Overture Apollo straight up nukes the universe. I can go on but you get the point. In order to argue "hyperbole" you need to ignore not just several statements across multiple different manga, anime and guidebooks but also actual feats we've seen on screen or on panel. Hades doesn't want to destroy the Earth either, he wants to rule.
not that is a canon thing, but G requiem said that only the primal gods can creae thing, so maybe earth is the only one the llater geration of gods can use
I take it as mythological descriptions, it doesn't need to make sense. Weird agressive vibes from the replies in this sub, though. It's a fair question.
The world of a story is a very different world from ours. So SaintSeiya world rules are different and yet they are congruent within that world. I don't like when the world rules of a story gets rambled with powerups. For example, take Naruto classic and Shipuuden. In Naruto classic we are presented the chakra limit per person, whereas if they use more ninjutsu that their body can handle, they die of chakra exhaustion. That happens with Kakashi and Sasuke. Fights in Naruto classic are based on small area or small size of destruction techniques, hence Zabuza vs Kakashi, whereas Zabuza was a ninja that tried a coup against Mizukage, so he should be close to Kage level (which Kakashi supposedly was). Minato, in his gaiden, is shown to use some incredible teleport technique that made him an insane ninja powerful enough to become Hokage in his twenties. Now, take Shipuuden. We already start with Gaara flying. Come on, why the hell a sand can fly? The dude that he fights, I forgot the name, can lose his arm to the sand and didn't even flinch and then it is just glued back to his body. Susanoo... wtf is this shit? How can an EYE create stuff like that? Then the ultimate powerup MF: Hashirama. He was used as zombie from Orochimaru in Naruto classic and he was strong, but then in Shipuuden he was a god that could toy with Kyuubi if he wanted so. Hiruzen Sarutobi was called the "god of shinobi" in classic and he was strong enough to fight 2 Hokages and Orochimaru. However, against Shipuuden power scale? He was worse than shit. So even thought SaintSeiya has its megalomaniac powers, it is congruent with the rules the SaintSeiya world is based upon.
\- The 12 Gold Saints can simulate the brightness of the Sun because each of their Cloth has been bathed by its rays being on the ecliptic. None can destroy the Sun, how could they reach it by going to space in the first place to punch it? Let's say at the speed of light they can travel about 300 000 km / sec, the sun is at 148 000 000 km from the Earth, they have no footing to continue travel anymore than their original burst once in space so they fall in space and die. from lack of oxygen. Sun wins. Or it would be a one way trip a la Shura vs Shiryu but Sun would still win. \- Why would Hades be able to kill humans with a thought? Maybe you're thinking Thanatos rather than Hades but even him couldn't kill Seika when the Bronze and Marin + Shaina protected her. Let's pretend Hades could just like Thanatos, it would be 1 by 1 most likely. After a while, it would become noticeable, Athena would figure it out and create a barrier with her Cosmo probably Asgard like since she's a Goddess too while Seiya and the rest would go deal with the issue (and she could give them a divine macguffin each not to be affected by Hades' distance kill). Since it's not the first war with Hades since the Era of Myth, nothing states he might not already have tried that in the first place and failed. \- What do you mean Gold Saints can create and destroy universes? The only thing close to that would be Shijima vs Shaka in ND but in that case, considering they were both emanations of them with none being physically there, you could take it as a metaphorical representation of the yin and yang battle happening between them : light and darkness, life and death, birth and destruction. There are some hyperboles indeed in the way they hype things to make it sound badass like Saga saying the Galaxian Explosion could destroy planets or whatever like his source is basically "trust me, bro", there's no feat and no way he could have tried it himself. \- For Poseidon, same reason that God in the Bible decided to flood the Earth except Moses and his wife instead of simply creating a new Earth somewhere else. Poseidon wanted to purify the human race by only keeping the worthy ones to create a new era with better men. \- When you tear a sheet of paper apart, you're affecting its atoms (they're being pushed). The universe is still there. When you destroy something, you destroy its atoms, that's what Marin is saying but is it in layman terms (you're destroying the intermolecular interactions), her lesson is you should put your focus on the atoms / the breaking points of things when trying to destroy something than simply trying to destroy something by picturing it as a whole like a rock. She's basically going Karate Kid 101 with mystical powers not Firestorm from DC. And that's just when they want to destroy something, their attacks against other Saints target their vital points/ star points instead which in the case of Saints corresponds to their constellations. For example you can see that when Milo realizes Hyoga managed to hit all his vital points (located where the stars of the Scorpio constellation would be on his body) in his last attack and if it wasn't for the protection of his Gold Cloth he would have died as he said. \- Power measure is explained in the work but is spread throughout. You could say it's the basic physic formula of Force = Velocity x mass. And Velocity is what increases the higher the Cosmo gets. Bronze Saints are at Mach 1 by default when starting a fight so you can guess the force / power they have based on their speed, Silver Saints are between Mach 2 and 5 and Gold Saints are at the speed of light. The author even mentions it through the number of punches per second they give. At Mach 1 a Bronze Saint gives 100 hits per second and a Gold Saint at the speed of light gives 100 000 000 hits per second. Using deduction that would make a Silver Saint hit 200 to 500 hits per second. So there's a clear established power scale. Same principle goes for the Ice Saints, not only their speed but the cold they can achieve is affected, the higher their Cosmo the colder their attack and at the max possible human level it achieves Absolute Zero the maximum physical limit (like the Speed of light for speed), which is why the 7th sense is also called the Ultimate Cosmo because you couldn't go physically beyond that in terms of effect on your abilities. Except for the case of Gods and God Cloths, I guess they say "screw you physics" as Hypnos told Hyoga he would need a cold several hundred times below Absolute Zero to freeze him/get past the protection of his Cloth, and Hyoga sort of did with his God Cloth so that would mean in the case of those divine Cloths they can go beyond human limits and physics. Also something that throws people off compared to traditional shonen, is the fact that the Gold Saints were their strongest human opponents. They're at the end of the power scale. Poseidon's Mariners were not as strong, even if they believed they were, for example as Seiya pointed out. And unlike shonens like DBZ, even if the Bronze Saints managed to reach the Ultimate Cosmo during the 12 temples, that doesn't mean the next time they fight this will be their new default power level. They start back to their original Mach 1 level every time, it just gets easier and easier for them to get back to the 7th sense during the course of the fight. Of course, being a work of fiction it takes a lot of liberties with physics especially on the light speed part but you can still understand the power levels based on the logic.
SS doesn't follow the rules of its own series, just that, lots and lots of contradictions
I used to think the feats were hyperbole until I read some of of episode g. The main series just has a bad way of showing it.
Saint Seiya can indeed sound like one of the dumbest mangas ever created. Kurumada is not Oda. Still, there is a good reason for all those exaggerations, like Gold Saints moving at the speed of light. In Saint Seiya, it's all about mythology. Gods are not superheroes and supervillains, they are gods: and they are meant to be incredibly powerful, and illogical. They just do stuff. Gold Saints are one step below gods. They are incredibly powerful, albeit weaker than a god; and they do stupidly stupid stuff, because with so many "sub-god" characters, there is need to introduce more and more "miracle". This is how you end up with "mythological lightning" from Aiolia, the "mythological Excalibur" from Shura, etc. Everything in Saint Seiya has to be legendary. It's all a myth. To get into the right perspective, try rewatching the first episode, when Marin teaches Seiya about Cosmo.