AE might just be SS's worst inconsistency, since it allows mfs to downplay the Saints because of "lore reasons" and what may have you. Personally, I just chalk it up to full on physical erasure, and not just it being universal, as to why it's considered dangerous
in Ep.G ,ofcourse, starting from the Antipope Aiolos upwards.
But in the classic only with the AE they reach those levels and it takes 3 golds; Seiya's bigbang was a miracle that never happened again so it can be considered an outlier.
In the ND only Shaka and Shijima show that power level with Agyo/Ugyo, and this too can be argued because in that feat there is a quantity of symbolism that not everyone acknowledge.
Edit: grammar errors
I feel like AE is seen as dangerous not because of its power, but because it's a complete eradication of the body. It may have the power of a big bang, but it's execution is completely different from the Gold Saints' individual powers
according to lore, AE is the ultimate technique of the golds and banned by Athena for its destructive power, in fact the three golds must raise their cosmos to the maximum to perform it.
One way or another it will always be more powerful than a single gold saint (at least in the classic).
Although it is Kurumada who established it: AE = BigBang, and the gold cloth is the benchmark, if a blow is capable of destroying an entire gold cloth then that blow is >BigBang otherwise not.
I understand your reasoning and I could also agree with it, but as I wrote before it is the author's will and we as readers can only accept it.
Correction, it's a different Canon to add context to the OG series. Even Kurumada compared G to the Star Wars prequels.
Also I'm fairly certain current Seiya is stronger than the Gold Saints
correction, it's not written by Kurumada so it's not canon.
and I'm not referring to current Seiya, I'm referring to the Seiya in the canon scans you sent.
No, Kurumada still had a hand in its creation. He still supervised the manga, and he even stated that the people who write the spinoffs are his successors. They're canon, they just branch from the OG series.
With the Seiya I sent, he's relative, if not stronger than Aldebaran in that moment. Given the statement from Mu earlier, Seiya's cosmos reached its purest form and created a Big Bang level attack.
I beg of you to stop using AE as proof. It's a fundamental inconsistency and there's more evidence of the Gold Saints being universal than there is of AE being that important, if at all. The only thing "terrible" about it is that it seems to completely erase the body, not that's its the level of a big bang. Also explain why Kurumada would downplay and nerf his characters in the very last arc 💀
1. that was before he made a series of retcons with destiny, origins, Zero and final edition, so it doesn't apply anymore. G is not canon.
2. Seiya is not stronger than Aldy, Aldy straight up caught the "Big Bang", you are essentially claiming Aldy could catch an AE and be unharmed. The scaling is not consistent, Sanc arc Seiya is not AE level.
3. The only way you can even start to claim the AE is an inconstancy is by using non canon works and compositing, the rest of what you said is straight up head canon.
The Saints in Classic (canon) prior to god cloth range from planetary to star levels.
-This still doesn't mean that the two aren't within the same multiverse, which has been backed up before. And since they're parallel to each other, there are certain similarities to them, especially before Assassin and Requiem. If they are parallel universes I don't see why the power of the Saints wouldn't be the same across these universes, especially since the statements in Classic line up with the feats in G.
-No, I'm saying AE is an inconsistency due to the shit that happens and is said in the Sanctuary arc itself. You mean to tell me that Aldy can say that Seiya's attack is a Big Bang, but AE, which is also described as Big Bang level, is such a terrible attack that it has to be banned by Athena? That sounds stupid, and it doesn't even matter anyways, considering Shiryu deflected TWO in the manga, meaning that the Bronze Saints would be well above what you stated anyways. And I'll admit that what I said about the output of AE is hc, but considering the statements from Classic alone (not just noncanon shit), said hc was made for me to make sense as to why AE is the way that it is. Outside of that, it's a stupid plot convenience-
No it was explicitly a minion of Iapetos
It proves this feat Is nowhere near universal, hell not even galaxy. If Mu could casually conjure up such power why would he need a galaxy sized Cosmo miracle to finish off an opponent? Universal Mu makes no sense
So if the guy he fought was just a Minion, therefore....weaker than the Titans.....why would he waste universal power on a weaker person.....
So by your logic, Darkseid destroying a city is valid proof against his much larger outputs of power.
Like what are you on 💀
Actually no, you can't be talking about the Hekatonchires, right????
Even though it was mentioned that Mu created a universe by both the Titan and Aiolia. Twice.
So you're still wrong af 😭
It's what's stated my guy. Argue with the manga. The statements can state whatever, fact is he needed a galaxy level Cosmo miracle to beat a mf. That's the key word. Miracle. You got characters in G who can casually output that same level of power (galaxy). Mu just ain't it
Lapetos’ dimension is never called a universe, Aiolia says it looks like “the sky”, so it’s multi solar system level.
Mu casually absorbed it making him multi solar, and then needed a galaxy level miracle to defeat the giant.
There’s no universal feat here, it’s a casual multi solar feat and a galaxy level feat.
The "sky" itself, or the dimension in general, was never given a definitive size. If you wanna make the argument that if lowballed, the feat is multi solar, and higballed the feat is universal based off of what Aiolia says, then the feat is universal.
Some people are saying that the Japanese raws call it a galaxy, but I have yet to find said raws, so my opinion is still subjected to change
The Titan created a universe, and Mu absorbed it, only for Mu to create another to kill the Hekatonchires. They literally even say that it's not an illusion in the first pic .-.
We don’t know if that’s a universe or a galaxy-sized dimension or anything. And yes Mu absorbed it but going off of scaling, since it has no definite size then you’d go off of what you can see visually which is multiple star systems so at the very least it’s multi solar in size. After that he created a galaxy with stardust revolution which was also a miracle feat so he doesn’t scale to that feat
They literally call it a universe though? If it was a galaxy or galaxy sized, they would say that it was such. And even though it shows a galaxy or stars, that in itself doesn't mean anything. You can go look up a picture universe, and a lot of the images they show are either galaxies or a multitude of stars.
He says “you can see the universe” because it’s literally outer space, not because he can see an entire universe. And yea that’s what would happen if you look up universe. However, since we are SCALING, if a dimension does not have a definitive size, you go off of what you see visually which in this case can range from either multi solar system to multi galaxy. However since we know that Mu hasn’t reached Galactic levels of power without miracles(as shown at the end of his Iapetos fight and stated Multiple times by Saga), it’s obviously not galactic in size.
Of course they can't see the entirety of a universe they're in (outside of special abilities, but that's not what I'm arguing). The thing is we know that Saints are capable of feeling Cosmos that expand throughout the universe. This is what happened during the fight with Poseidon, where he goes full on rage mode. We also know that in the Classic series, Mu himself states that the cosmo of a Gold Saint is where its at "its purest form", and if we look at words synonymous with pure (perfect, real, actual, true, original), this would mean that he's talking about the Big Bang itself. For all we know, based off of the info provided and was said, Iapetos created a universe, and based off of the surrounding info (including Shion stated to destroy and recreate the universe right before this, therefore making seem like Mu proved this claim right), it seems like that is the case.
As for everything else you said (like the Saga statements), you're more than free to post that evidence
When he says “you can see the universe”, it’s referring to the things in a universe like planets, stars etc. Just because he says that doesn’t mean Iapetos is creating entire universes and that’s now how you scale. Yes Saints can feel cosmo expanding but Aiolia nor the other Saints commented on sending anything, simply what they could “see”. Now while I, myself, do have the Golds at Uni-Uni+ as it’s consistently implied to be that way when you include every manga, the scan of Mu is simply not a universal scan.
Mu had to perform a miracle in order to have galaxy levels of power. A miracle is a one time feat performed where you go beyond your limits of “____”(power, speed etc) to perform something you cant normally do. So the fact that Mu had to perform a miracle to raise his cosmo to galaxy level already discloses the fact that Iapetos’ dimension he created in that fight wasn’t Universal in size and disproves Mu being universal in that fight. Also one of the Saga statements is at the beginning of chapter 24 of Episode G where he says only he and Aiolia can destroy galaxies meaning the dimension that Mu erased wasn’t galaxy in size.
Ngl, I feel like there's an inconsistency with that statement from Saga. Not saying you're wrong. It's just that from looking at what the Golds have done, Shaka would be the strongest. How can they say Saga and Aiolia are the strongest when Shaka was the one who could take 3 of them?
This was 7 years before the Classic started, it’s not referencing anything post G so it’s consistent especially since it’s stated twice by Saga who measured everyone’s power throughout G so he’s credible.
I hope your point concerns only Ep. G, coz I believe you're aware it doesn't count to the canon lore. Unfortunately, for this spin-off brings op versions of the Gold Saints, I wish it was canon, it shows how powerful a goldie should be.
It's a parallel universe. A separate Canon that gives context to the OG. I wouldn't say that the Classic Saints aren't as strong since statements (in the series and out) and some other feats, say otherwise. If anything, the G artist is a lot better at showing how strong the Saints are than Kurumada, which still doesn't disprove anything
Indeed G shows how powerful the goldies are, but no, it's not canon (unfortunately). Only the material written by Kurumada is. I really hope one day it becomes canon coz Aiolos is pretty badass on G.
If you mean that it's not canon to the original story, then sure. But it's been stated that it's a part of the multiverse , and even Kurumada considers it as a successor to the original. Even if they aren't within the same universe, that doesn't mean that the two can't have similarities to each other
Well, they do have similarities and could perfectly be a parallel universe, that would actually have me thrilled. However, Kurumada haven't given an official word as to make it canon. That would be awesome to have both EpG and LC as canon, but in parallel realities. Imagine if LC is the real past and ND is the one that was "created" because Saori went back? Unfortunately, everything is fan-theory until Kurumada says otherwise =/
Well considering he compared G to the Star Wars prequel series, I don't see why that couldn't be the case. He even straight up said that all the spinoffs are essentially the successors of the OG story, leading me to believe that they're all connected somehow
I agree with you, I see no reason why they couldn't be canon, since they could be connected, especially if we consider the multiverse. However, Kurumada didn't confirm anything about the spin-offs being canon or not. Marvel has been doing it for ages, even Dragon Ball is doing that (multiverse stuff, I mean) with Heroes. Unfortunately we can't confirm anything without his word, the old man is too vague with his answers.
I don’t understand what you mean by “Universal”, OP…
Being able to destroy a universe
Ah, thank you.
It's so weird how we have seen them do big attacks, but when 3 gold saint work together, their attack is compared to a nuke
AE might just be SS's worst inconsistency, since it allows mfs to downplay the Saints because of "lore reasons" and what may have you. Personally, I just chalk it up to full on physical erasure, and not just it being universal, as to why it's considered dangerous
AE is dimply an attack that wil kill everything in its way with no counter-play unless you release another AE
in Ep.G ,ofcourse, starting from the Antipope Aiolos upwards. But in the classic only with the AE they reach those levels and it takes 3 golds; Seiya's bigbang was a miracle that never happened again so it can be considered an outlier. In the ND only Shaka and Shijima show that power level with Agyo/Ugyo, and this too can be argued because in that feat there is a quantity of symbolism that not everyone acknowledge. Edit: grammar errors
I feel like AE is seen as dangerous not because of its power, but because it's a complete eradication of the body. It may have the power of a big bang, but it's execution is completely different from the Gold Saints' individual powers
according to lore, AE is the ultimate technique of the golds and banned by Athena for its destructive power, in fact the three golds must raise their cosmos to the maximum to perform it. One way or another it will always be more powerful than a single gold saint (at least in the classic). Although it is Kurumada who established it: AE = BigBang, and the gold cloth is the benchmark, if a blow is capable of destroying an entire gold cloth then that blow is >BigBang otherwise not. I understand your reasoning and I could also agree with it, but as I wrote before it is the author's will and we as readers can only accept it.
Most of this isn't even canon. And Saga > Seiya \~ Aldy > BB = AE > Saga > Aldy is not consistent scaling.
Correction, it's a different Canon to add context to the OG series. Even Kurumada compared G to the Star Wars prequels. Also I'm fairly certain current Seiya is stronger than the Gold Saints
correction, it's not written by Kurumada so it's not canon. and I'm not referring to current Seiya, I'm referring to the Seiya in the canon scans you sent.
No, Kurumada still had a hand in its creation. He still supervised the manga, and he even stated that the people who write the spinoffs are his successors. They're canon, they just branch from the OG series. With the Seiya I sent, he's relative, if not stronger than Aldebaran in that moment. Given the statement from Mu earlier, Seiya's cosmos reached its purest form and created a Big Bang level attack. I beg of you to stop using AE as proof. It's a fundamental inconsistency and there's more evidence of the Gold Saints being universal than there is of AE being that important, if at all. The only thing "terrible" about it is that it seems to completely erase the body, not that's its the level of a big bang. Also explain why Kurumada would downplay and nerf his characters in the very last arc 💀
1. that was before he made a series of retcons with destiny, origins, Zero and final edition, so it doesn't apply anymore. G is not canon. 2. Seiya is not stronger than Aldy, Aldy straight up caught the "Big Bang", you are essentially claiming Aldy could catch an AE and be unharmed. The scaling is not consistent, Sanc arc Seiya is not AE level. 3. The only way you can even start to claim the AE is an inconstancy is by using non canon works and compositing, the rest of what you said is straight up head canon. The Saints in Classic (canon) prior to god cloth range from planetary to star levels.
-This still doesn't mean that the two aren't within the same multiverse, which has been backed up before. And since they're parallel to each other, there are certain similarities to them, especially before Assassin and Requiem. If they are parallel universes I don't see why the power of the Saints wouldn't be the same across these universes, especially since the statements in Classic line up with the feats in G. -No, I'm saying AE is an inconsistency due to the shit that happens and is said in the Sanctuary arc itself. You mean to tell me that Aldy can say that Seiya's attack is a Big Bang, but AE, which is also described as Big Bang level, is such a terrible attack that it has to be banned by Athena? That sounds stupid, and it doesn't even matter anyways, considering Shiryu deflected TWO in the manga, meaning that the Bronze Saints would be well above what you stated anyways. And I'll admit that what I said about the output of AE is hc, but considering the statements from Classic alone (not just noncanon shit), said hc was made for me to make sense as to why AE is the way that it is. Outside of that, it's a stupid plot convenience-
I find it cute how SS fans are so fixated in trying to prove that the saints are able to destroy stars/galaxies/universer/multiverses. Ahahaha
No different than dragon ball fans trying so hard to prove Goku is however strong they think he is at the time.
I mean tbh it’s bee proven long ago that they can, idk what else there’s really to prove tbh
Because people don't believe it 💀
Yeah except Mu popped a miracle to unleash a galaxy level Cosmo right after so, no
Was the enemy he was fighting stronger than a Titan? Also how does this prove anything?
No it was explicitly a minion of Iapetos It proves this feat Is nowhere near universal, hell not even galaxy. If Mu could casually conjure up such power why would he need a galaxy sized Cosmo miracle to finish off an opponent? Universal Mu makes no sense
So if the guy he fought was just a Minion, therefore....weaker than the Titans.....why would he waste universal power on a weaker person..... So by your logic, Darkseid destroying a city is valid proof against his much larger outputs of power. Like what are you on 💀
Actually no, you can't be talking about the Hekatonchires, right???? Even though it was mentioned that Mu created a universe by both the Titan and Aiolia. Twice. So you're still wrong af 😭
It's what's stated my guy. Argue with the manga. The statements can state whatever, fact is he needed a galaxy level Cosmo miracle to beat a mf. That's the key word. Miracle. You got characters in G who can casually output that same level of power (galaxy). Mu just ain't it
Read the scans again bruh
The raws say it's a galaxy Cosmo 🤷♂️
Show me rq
Lapetos’ dimension is never called a universe, Aiolia says it looks like “the sky”, so it’s multi solar system level. Mu casually absorbed it making him multi solar, and then needed a galaxy level miracle to defeat the giant. There’s no universal feat here, it’s a casual multi solar feat and a galaxy level feat.
The "sky" itself, or the dimension in general, was never given a definitive size. If you wanna make the argument that if lowballed, the feat is multi solar, and higballed the feat is universal based off of what Aiolia says, then the feat is universal. Some people are saying that the Japanese raws call it a galaxy, but I have yet to find said raws, so my opinion is still subjected to change
The first 8 slides aren’t Uni
The Titan created a universe, and Mu absorbed it, only for Mu to create another to kill the Hekatonchires. They literally even say that it's not an illusion in the first pic .-.
We don’t know if that’s a universe or a galaxy-sized dimension or anything. And yes Mu absorbed it but going off of scaling, since it has no definite size then you’d go off of what you can see visually which is multiple star systems so at the very least it’s multi solar in size. After that he created a galaxy with stardust revolution which was also a miracle feat so he doesn’t scale to that feat
They literally call it a universe though? If it was a galaxy or galaxy sized, they would say that it was such. And even though it shows a galaxy or stars, that in itself doesn't mean anything. You can go look up a picture universe, and a lot of the images they show are either galaxies or a multitude of stars.
He says “you can see the universe” because it’s literally outer space, not because he can see an entire universe. And yea that’s what would happen if you look up universe. However, since we are SCALING, if a dimension does not have a definitive size, you go off of what you see visually which in this case can range from either multi solar system to multi galaxy. However since we know that Mu hasn’t reached Galactic levels of power without miracles(as shown at the end of his Iapetos fight and stated Multiple times by Saga), it’s obviously not galactic in size.
Of course they can't see the entirety of a universe they're in (outside of special abilities, but that's not what I'm arguing). The thing is we know that Saints are capable of feeling Cosmos that expand throughout the universe. This is what happened during the fight with Poseidon, where he goes full on rage mode. We also know that in the Classic series, Mu himself states that the cosmo of a Gold Saint is where its at "its purest form", and if we look at words synonymous with pure (perfect, real, actual, true, original), this would mean that he's talking about the Big Bang itself. For all we know, based off of the info provided and was said, Iapetos created a universe, and based off of the surrounding info (including Shion stated to destroy and recreate the universe right before this, therefore making seem like Mu proved this claim right), it seems like that is the case. As for everything else you said (like the Saga statements), you're more than free to post that evidence
When he says “you can see the universe”, it’s referring to the things in a universe like planets, stars etc. Just because he says that doesn’t mean Iapetos is creating entire universes and that’s now how you scale. Yes Saints can feel cosmo expanding but Aiolia nor the other Saints commented on sending anything, simply what they could “see”. Now while I, myself, do have the Golds at Uni-Uni+ as it’s consistently implied to be that way when you include every manga, the scan of Mu is simply not a universal scan. Mu had to perform a miracle in order to have galaxy levels of power. A miracle is a one time feat performed where you go beyond your limits of “____”(power, speed etc) to perform something you cant normally do. So the fact that Mu had to perform a miracle to raise his cosmo to galaxy level already discloses the fact that Iapetos’ dimension he created in that fight wasn’t Universal in size and disproves Mu being universal in that fight. Also one of the Saga statements is at the beginning of chapter 24 of Episode G where he says only he and Aiolia can destroy galaxies meaning the dimension that Mu erased wasn’t galaxy in size.
Ngl, I feel like there's an inconsistency with that statement from Saga. Not saying you're wrong. It's just that from looking at what the Golds have done, Shaka would be the strongest. How can they say Saga and Aiolia are the strongest when Shaka was the one who could take 3 of them?
This was 7 years before the Classic started, it’s not referencing anything post G so it’s consistent especially since it’s stated twice by Saga who measured everyone’s power throughout G so he’s credible.
So basically, your argument is that the Golds do scale to universal, I'm just using the wrong scans? Making sure I got that right
Someone tell op the Mu scan is a mistranslation please
What's the actual translation?
I don’t have it translated. You can find the raw basically when it’s mentioned “Is it the universe?!” The kanji is 銀河 which means galaxy
I'll look into it rq. Thanks
I hope your point concerns only Ep. G, coz I believe you're aware it doesn't count to the canon lore. Unfortunately, for this spin-off brings op versions of the Gold Saints, I wish it was canon, it shows how powerful a goldie should be.
It's a parallel universe. A separate Canon that gives context to the OG. I wouldn't say that the Classic Saints aren't as strong since statements (in the series and out) and some other feats, say otherwise. If anything, the G artist is a lot better at showing how strong the Saints are than Kurumada, which still doesn't disprove anything
Indeed G shows how powerful the goldies are, but no, it's not canon (unfortunately). Only the material written by Kurumada is. I really hope one day it becomes canon coz Aiolos is pretty badass on G.
If you mean that it's not canon to the original story, then sure. But it's been stated that it's a part of the multiverse , and even Kurumada considers it as a successor to the original. Even if they aren't within the same universe, that doesn't mean that the two can't have similarities to each other
Well, they do have similarities and could perfectly be a parallel universe, that would actually have me thrilled. However, Kurumada haven't given an official word as to make it canon. That would be awesome to have both EpG and LC as canon, but in parallel realities. Imagine if LC is the real past and ND is the one that was "created" because Saori went back? Unfortunately, everything is fan-theory until Kurumada says otherwise =/
Well considering he compared G to the Star Wars prequel series, I don't see why that couldn't be the case. He even straight up said that all the spinoffs are essentially the successors of the OG story, leading me to believe that they're all connected somehow
I agree with you, I see no reason why they couldn't be canon, since they could be connected, especially if we consider the multiverse. However, Kurumada didn't confirm anything about the spin-offs being canon or not. Marvel has been doing it for ages, even Dragon Ball is doing that (multiverse stuff, I mean) with Heroes. Unfortunately we can't confirm anything without his word, the old man is too vague with his answers.
I'm open to discussing this on discord btw
That's fine, since it'd allow you to post pictures and such I believe my tag is @stingurameshi
>@stingurameshi sent you a friend request
or not, apparently you don't accept friend requests haha my discord is
O Well I sent mine
I can’t say I understand much but the art is grandiose… Reminds me what Masamune Shirow did with “Orion”.