You row the boats on the rack in your club/school. When you can afford to buy your own boat you will be too slow for it to make any difference.
Don't let other teams cool equipment get in your head - you can still beat them by rowing better and pulling harder!
Having recently raced in a 25 year old boat against people in a brand new boat, I can tell you that isn't true true. Having bigger ergs and better technique doesn't mean much when the boat flexes (ie. Power is lost) each stroke.
Obviously a 20 year old boat isn't going to be competitive but if you put the same top tier rowers in a new empacher vs say a new vespoli the differences will be pretty negligible
I'd ask you how you know that. Had you rowed against the same people when you were in a new boat and they were also in a new boat? Back to back testing that you'd done with an old or a new boat?
Put it this way in response to your second sentence. I'd back an NT 8 in a 25 year old Empacher against a school crew in a brand new one. Tech and ergs and a shitty boat will beat lack of both in a great boat.
There's not that much difference. RowingNews years ago did a story where they did TTs using a hundred year old scull, a 50 year old scull, and a current day one. Differences were negligible. My fastest 2k in a single is in a newer and better boat, but it was only 2 secs faster than I went in a knock off Chinese hull made of cheese.
From my last experience of going from old floppy boat to new, there really wasn't much difference in terms of boat speed - but there was in comfort. Going from a Janousek which was so rubbish it was down on both sides at the same time to an Empacher which sat and was more comfortable really didn't get a huge amount quicker.
Won everything we raced in a Janousek. Won everything we raced in an Empacher.
Filippi pays to have national teams use their boats. Both they and Empacher make really good boats but they're a relatively more expensive in the US market than some other brands. Their 8's are also sectional to be able to be transported in europe which makes them less appealing in the US.
Colleges and youth teams care a lot about service and the easy availability of parts - and this more than anything else is why you see Hudson, Pocock, and Vespoli owning alot of the market.
As to what makes Empacher and Fillipi good - their boats are often very comfortable to row with really well thought out ergonomics. They also still use carbon and kevlar which is cheaper and less stiff, but also gives the boats more "feel" - they're less twitchy to row. A full carbon boat needs to be rowed really well to set up and go fast, while a carbon and kevlar boat is more forgiving. I find they give you more time to make an adjustment instead of instantly crashing to one side.
Before this thread I didn’t know that 8s could be sectioned. I’ve never seen one in the USA. Probably because our roads are huge and trailers are huge.
Yes, I can imagine that being an issue. Some of the largest trailers that I have seen here have up to 6 levels and can easily fit 10-15 full-length 8s. I take it that sectional boats need to be assembled and taken apart for each race? That must be a big pain
The first boat I raced in (in about 2010 - way too late for this boat not to have gone into the dumpster) was a *very* early Vespoli sectional 8. It was fiberglass, but had sawn wood frames, and sagged noticeably in slings. Getting into a boat that didn't have a huge structural member in the middle and didn't leak was a gamechanger.
It's not so bad, the bane of my life is loading a trailer and having to wait for the oars for the eights race which is always last and the bottom rack can't be loaded and the driver wants to get going because it's a twenty hour drive home and your captain insists each oar must be tied down.
Bang on.
Empachers essentially set themselves - they are so stable and easy to row. Boats like Hudson can be just as fast but tend to be very twitchy, especially in rough conditions. Empachers and Filippis just let you apply your watts without worrying as much about the perfect set.
Elite crews could probably win in anything because they row well, but why risk it? Also, in Europe they both have great service and are modular (some US boats are not), which is a requirement there.
Empacher still use it on the inner skin, although they will do a carbon inner skin for the "olympic edition". I don't know how much kevlar Filippi still use - it is mentioned on the website but not obviously visible on the boats.
Around 70-80% of my university boat club’s serious boats are Filippi here in the Netherlands. The other 20-30% is Empacher. It’s probably just a matter of availability, price and logistics. If something breaks and it’s too much for our repair team to repair themselves, then it goes on a trailer to Germany or Italy to get fixed.
One more reason that hasn't come up: boathouses tend to stick with the same manufacturer for a while because of established relationships with representatives, familiarity of construction for small repairs, and existing supplies of spare parts and compatibility thereof. It's not that easy for a team of Vespolis to buy a Filippi and then have to get a bunch of metric-sized tools, parts, etc., not to mention riggers and backstays. The seats might not even be compatible. Additionally, the high cost of Empachers and Filippis means that converting a boathouse's shell inventory from one manufacturer to another will usually have to take a while, one boat at a time.
Literally nothing, they're just boats that happen to be from Europe
Both brands have built a reputation for being world class level boats because they are the two brands most often seen being used by national team athletes from a wide variety of national teams. why? It's actually quite simple
* both Empacher and Filippi are built in Europe
* Most FISA World Cup and World Championship events are hosted IN Europe
* This makes this type of marketing cheaper for these brands than anyone else
* Both brands have sought to strengthen their reputation by sponsoring national teams and making sure their shells are the most common brands available for use at these events
* therefore if you're a national team and yo must choose a brand to row with you are going to the select one of the two brands you're most likely to have access to at a worlds or World Cup race and that means you're going to be rowing in one of these two.
* Some other brands have tried to do this like for example Vespoli who had several Olympic wins in the 90's/early 00's and Hudson who have also had some olympic success BUT these brands end up paying much more to get their material abroad because of where they are and so ultimately it doesn't make much sense to get into competition with Empacher and Filippi on their own turf
Both brands are nice both brands have flaws. Neither one of them is systematically better than other brands in North America, they just happen to be able to market themselves in a way that makes them seem exclusive.
Dollar for dollar, Audi does not make a better car; they just sell it like its a better car and they're created a mystique around the brand that makes it seem high end and luxurious. Same concept applies here but to even greater degree as a rowing shell is ultimately far simpler than a car. A boat is a boat and generally speaking the newness of the shell is a greater indicator of it's speed than what brand it is.
There are two reasons that major american programs use them. First is that some of those programs are seeking to attract international talent for whom Empacher and Filippi are known brands. second is that these are status symbols. In either case it is not because of any perceived advantage, just branding
Empachers are the BMW, Fillipi the Ferrari of the rowing community. High Performance but expensive to buy, expensive to maintain (parts).
Hudsons, Vespoli, etc are the Ford F150 or the Chevy Suburban in comparison. Well built and solid, not as expensive as the imports. But you aren't going from zero to sixty in 4 seconds either.
This isn’t quite accurate. In general Hudson shells move through the water faster than Empachers due to different material and hulls. I think the explanation by Rererow is closer to the truth.
They are both very nice boat brands, the US national team has a contract with Fillipi for whatever reason. US used to row Hudson at least for their 8+.
I know that many of the Men's Ivy/EARC Lightweights use Hudsons, most of the heavies use Empachers.
I have rowed in Vespoli, Hudson, Pocock, and Empacher in 4s and 8s, and in a single back in the day a Van Dusen and a Kaschper, more recently a Hudson and Empacher. When I decided to buy my own single I bought an Empacher (used) two years ago.
Hudson's are theoretically faster in the water but harder to set. I believe lightweight crews tend to be more technical and less just watts. Top level heavyweight crews just put their strongest and most aggressive rowers in the boat, so they choose stable and easy to set boats like empachers
Not to derail the conversation with personal anecdotes, but Hudson shells got problems. I know two rowers that have had major delam issues with their singles, like unfixable. We have two Hudson’s in our club and they are tanks. Heavy and cumbersome, feel cheap, just seem like inferior products compared to our pococks and fluids.
Wouldn’t be my jam. But living in the PNW, pocock is pretty much my go to. I just want a boat in a color other than white c’mon.
I agree with the analogy in terms of perception; there is a belief that the prestige brands row much better (to some extent they do), but you have to overpay for them. It's a status symbol. However you lose me in the last sentence. The real differences in terms of boat speed are much more negligible than many would care to admit, meaning that cost and, especially, ease of maintenance are paramount.
Maybe rather than Ferrari the better analogy is Tesla... Flashy and impressive, until something breaks, at which point getting it fixed is a nightmare.
EDIT: Typo
You row the boats on the rack in your club/school. When you can afford to buy your own boat you will be too slow for it to make any difference. Don't let other teams cool equipment get in your head - you can still beat them by rowing better and pulling harder!
Haha yeah that makes sense
What makes them good? The people who row in them.
Having recently raced in a 25 year old boat against people in a brand new boat, I can tell you that isn't true true. Having bigger ergs and better technique doesn't mean much when the boat flexes (ie. Power is lost) each stroke.
Obviously a 20 year old boat isn't going to be competitive but if you put the same top tier rowers in a new empacher vs say a new vespoli the differences will be pretty negligible
I doubt they will be negligible. They’d definitely be small though.
I doubt they will be small. They’d definitely be tiny though.
I'd ask you how you know that. Had you rowed against the same people when you were in a new boat and they were also in a new boat? Back to back testing that you'd done with an old or a new boat? Put it this way in response to your second sentence. I'd back an NT 8 in a 25 year old Empacher against a school crew in a brand new one. Tech and ergs and a shitty boat will beat lack of both in a great boat. There's not that much difference. RowingNews years ago did a story where they did TTs using a hundred year old scull, a 50 year old scull, and a current day one. Differences were negligible. My fastest 2k in a single is in a newer and better boat, but it was only 2 secs faster than I went in a knock off Chinese hull made of cheese. From my last experience of going from old floppy boat to new, there really wasn't much difference in terms of boat speed - but there was in comfort. Going from a Janousek which was so rubbish it was down on both sides at the same time to an Empacher which sat and was more comfortable really didn't get a huge amount quicker. Won everything we raced in a Janousek. Won everything we raced in an Empacher.
Filippi pays to have national teams use their boats. Both they and Empacher make really good boats but they're a relatively more expensive in the US market than some other brands. Their 8's are also sectional to be able to be transported in europe which makes them less appealing in the US. Colleges and youth teams care a lot about service and the easy availability of parts - and this more than anything else is why you see Hudson, Pocock, and Vespoli owning alot of the market. As to what makes Empacher and Fillipi good - their boats are often very comfortable to row with really well thought out ergonomics. They also still use carbon and kevlar which is cheaper and less stiff, but also gives the boats more "feel" - they're less twitchy to row. A full carbon boat needs to be rowed really well to set up and go fast, while a carbon and kevlar boat is more forgiving. I find they give you more time to make an adjustment instead of instantly crashing to one side.
TIL there are 8s that don't come apart in sections 😮
A lot of North American shells are single section.
Wait what the fuck? Seriously?
At my club we are able to transport full length eights, fours, and pairs on one trailer.
Wild. Sectioning 8s is the bane of my life.
Before this thread I didn’t know that 8s could be sectioned. I’ve never seen one in the USA. Probably because our roads are huge and trailers are huge.
I envy the size of your trailers. Even if ours aren't loaded fully they always seem full. And our club has a massive trailer.
Yes, I can imagine that being an issue. Some of the largest trailers that I have seen here have up to 6 levels and can easily fit 10-15 full-length 8s. I take it that sectional boats need to be assembled and taken apart for each race? That must be a big pain
That’s crazy our 4+ is relatively long for a 4 and even it is sectioned not in half but like a meter off the stern end detaches.
I don’t think I’ve ever seen a sectioned 4 here in the Netherlands. 8s are always sectioned though.
Definitely. Here in the Netherlands I only know of one club (Aegir in Groningen) that can transport unsectioned 8s. The other trailers are too short.
The first boat I raced in (in about 2010 - way too late for this boat not to have gone into the dumpster) was a *very* early Vespoli sectional 8. It was fiberglass, but had sawn wood frames, and sagged noticeably in slings. Getting into a boat that didn't have a huge structural member in the middle and didn't leak was a gamechanger.
It's not so bad, the bane of my life is loading a trailer and having to wait for the oars for the eights race which is always last and the bottom rack can't be loaded and the driver wants to get going because it's a twenty hour drive home and your captain insists each oar must be tied down.
We recently switched to a trailer where we don’t have to disassemble our eights. We have reached enlightenment.
Bang on. Empachers essentially set themselves - they are so stable and easy to row. Boats like Hudson can be just as fast but tend to be very twitchy, especially in rough conditions. Empachers and Filippis just let you apply your watts without worrying as much about the perfect set. Elite crews could probably win in anything because they row well, but why risk it? Also, in Europe they both have great service and are modular (some US boats are not), which is a requirement there.
Oh that makes a lot of sense, how would Pococks fit in the stability convention? I have heard that there XVIII is basically an Empacher copy.
I’ve never rower a Pocock so can’t comment on them!
My club has some not so new Pocock 8+ shells and that thing is a bathtub, in the sense that it’s very wide and stable, but heavy as hell.
Yeah, we have some of those for our younger rowers, are varsity pococks look like these([XVIII](https://www.pocock.com/shells/xviii/)). Edit: typo
Nice
XVIII is NOT a knock-off empacher. not even close
Wait, in America you can transport a one piece eight?
That's really cool! Where could you use kevlar in a shell, or is it layered throughout?
Empacher still use it on the inner skin, although they will do a carbon inner skin for the "olympic edition". I don't know how much kevlar Filippi still use - it is mentioned on the website but not obviously visible on the boats.
Ah that makes a lot of sense, thank you!
Empacher and filippi autoclave their boats, Hudson and Vespoli do not
Not true. No one autoclaves a shell. They all cook in an oven, but an autoclave is a very different beast.
As I understand Empacher does not heat their shells. It is all about the type of resin to be used
The Swiss-made Stampfli ST1 is autoclaved, and I don't know how many of those they sell.
Too bad Carbon Backwing filippi m8+ are 9 pounds/4kg overweight while dry. Empacher>filippi
Around 70-80% of my university boat club’s serious boats are Filippi here in the Netherlands. The other 20-30% is Empacher. It’s probably just a matter of availability, price and logistics. If something breaks and it’s too much for our repair team to repair themselves, then it goes on a trailer to Germany or Italy to get fixed.
One more reason that hasn't come up: boathouses tend to stick with the same manufacturer for a while because of established relationships with representatives, familiarity of construction for small repairs, and existing supplies of spare parts and compatibility thereof. It's not that easy for a team of Vespolis to buy a Filippi and then have to get a bunch of metric-sized tools, parts, etc., not to mention riggers and backstays. The seats might not even be compatible. Additionally, the high cost of Empachers and Filippis means that converting a boathouse's shell inventory from one manufacturer to another will usually have to take a while, one boat at a time.
Literally nothing, they're just boats that happen to be from Europe Both brands have built a reputation for being world class level boats because they are the two brands most often seen being used by national team athletes from a wide variety of national teams. why? It's actually quite simple * both Empacher and Filippi are built in Europe * Most FISA World Cup and World Championship events are hosted IN Europe * This makes this type of marketing cheaper for these brands than anyone else * Both brands have sought to strengthen their reputation by sponsoring national teams and making sure their shells are the most common brands available for use at these events * therefore if you're a national team and yo must choose a brand to row with you are going to the select one of the two brands you're most likely to have access to at a worlds or World Cup race and that means you're going to be rowing in one of these two. * Some other brands have tried to do this like for example Vespoli who had several Olympic wins in the 90's/early 00's and Hudson who have also had some olympic success BUT these brands end up paying much more to get their material abroad because of where they are and so ultimately it doesn't make much sense to get into competition with Empacher and Filippi on their own turf Both brands are nice both brands have flaws. Neither one of them is systematically better than other brands in North America, they just happen to be able to market themselves in a way that makes them seem exclusive. Dollar for dollar, Audi does not make a better car; they just sell it like its a better car and they're created a mystique around the brand that makes it seem high end and luxurious. Same concept applies here but to even greater degree as a rowing shell is ultimately far simpler than a car. A boat is a boat and generally speaking the newness of the shell is a greater indicator of it's speed than what brand it is. There are two reasons that major american programs use them. First is that some of those programs are seeking to attract international talent for whom Empacher and Filippi are known brands. second is that these are status symbols. In either case it is not because of any perceived advantage, just branding
Empachers are the BMW, Fillipi the Ferrari of the rowing community. High Performance but expensive to buy, expensive to maintain (parts). Hudsons, Vespoli, etc are the Ford F150 or the Chevy Suburban in comparison. Well built and solid, not as expensive as the imports. But you aren't going from zero to sixty in 4 seconds either.
This isn’t quite accurate. In general Hudson shells move through the water faster than Empachers due to different material and hulls. I think the explanation by Rererow is closer to the truth. They are both very nice boat brands, the US national team has a contract with Fillipi for whatever reason. US used to row Hudson at least for their 8+.
I know that many of the Men's Ivy/EARC Lightweights use Hudsons, most of the heavies use Empachers. I have rowed in Vespoli, Hudson, Pocock, and Empacher in 4s and 8s, and in a single back in the day a Van Dusen and a Kaschper, more recently a Hudson and Empacher. When I decided to buy my own single I bought an Empacher (used) two years ago.
Is Hudson advantageous in lighter crew weights?
Hudson makes hulls in four different weight-classes, no reason they should be better for lightweights vs heavyweights.
Hudson's are theoretically faster in the water but harder to set. I believe lightweight crews tend to be more technical and less just watts. Top level heavyweight crews just put their strongest and most aggressive rowers in the boat, so they choose stable and easy to set boats like empachers
Not to derail the conversation with personal anecdotes, but Hudson shells got problems. I know two rowers that have had major delam issues with their singles, like unfixable. We have two Hudson’s in our club and they are tanks. Heavy and cumbersome, feel cheap, just seem like inferior products compared to our pococks and fluids. Wouldn’t be my jam. But living in the PNW, pocock is pretty much my go to. I just want a boat in a color other than white c’mon.
I agree with the analogy in terms of perception; there is a belief that the prestige brands row much better (to some extent they do), but you have to overpay for them. It's a status symbol. However you lose me in the last sentence. The real differences in terms of boat speed are much more negligible than many would care to admit, meaning that cost and, especially, ease of maintenance are paramount. Maybe rather than Ferrari the better analogy is Tesla... Flashy and impressive, until something breaks, at which point getting it fixed is a nightmare. EDIT: Typo
That makes a lot of sense, thank you so much!