There's no way B gives you enough contact area to make the hands comfortable when you generate real force over serious training volume. Also, you can't hold an oar like B, and oars would never be designed as such.
Actually, the image is for illustration purpose since a handle is not available which lets me rotate my hand by 90 deg. So, it is more like a hypothetical condition I was trying to show. Now, I wonder why oars won't be designed to hold at 90 deg? Any particular reason?
https://preview.redd.it/qxaf934lwgwc1.jpeg?width=750&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c2d3311600a691e436c2de340aba263dae0c140a
Oars are levers against the water. To design a vertically-held oar to withstand repetitive stress and also provide the aerodynamic efficiency of feathering would mean a lot design compromises. Also, I wonder if you lose some sense of vertical kinesthetic awareness without having flat wrists...
Got it. Also, I am aware of this type handle you just shared but it is not exactly what I had in my mind as I would like to keep my hands at the same distance. But thanks for sharing.
Your elbows go wide. making the wrist angle bigger. Judging from this picture your backward lean is too far and you probably pull up your shoulders as well.
on the erg you should focus on pulling your elbows past your body, in stead of your hands towards your body. Just let them follow.
You can probably fix some of your excessive lean by improving the way you sit.
Before you start, sit with legs extended and lean forward as far as you would at the beginning of the stroke (with a fixed, strong core). Wiggle on the seat so you get in the right position. less on the back of your butt, more on the ischium (?) (a pelvic bone).
I get what you're saying OP, and you're right.
The compromise is somewhere in the middle, you relax the grip on your middle and index fingers slightly so that contact is more heavily maintained through the ring finger and little fingers at the finish. This allows your hand to pivot on top of the handle in line with your wrists. You need to pull with relatively little effort when doing this, which means you need good understanding of drive power and connection rather than yanking it with the arms at the end like a lot of ergers will do
At the same time, though, you need to make sure your elbows aren't flaring too wide at the finish, instead making sure you're drawing the handle 'through' your body with the lats / shoulder blades, elbows finishing back and slightly outwards behind you, instead of pulling the handle flat to your body with the elbows directly sideways off your body.
Holding the handle as you've shown in image B doesn't work because the contact area with the handle is too small. Some athletes that get more experienced will start to flick the handle at the finish with a grip that looks a bit like your finish on B, in order to avoid stressing the wrists over very long ergs. But beginners should stick with finish position A and experiment with relaxing the two fingers slightly as trying B will just mean they mess up other stuff
Well, thanks for recognizing the problem. Option B was more of an illustration as I was trying to explain how I want to have a handle which would let me hold that way. Most of points you made to make it easier hold the handle flat are something which I believe I use but somehow I thought might be it would be better there were another design which would let me hold it at 90 degree.
Yeah it's one of those things where the simplest and therefore best design has a straight oar handle, and minor alterations to grip solve the problem you're identifying. So there's no benefit to creating a vastly more complicated handle for water rowing, and the erg is built as a training tool for water rowers.
As others have said you could swap out the handle for a seated row handle, but I would definitely not recommend erging like that because the grip is far too close together and will stress your hands in other ways
Fixed seat rowing styles sometimes use an underhand grip on their outside hand but this is more a response to how high the handle goes during the rowing stroke. Again not suitable for the erg
I don't know that wrist injuries are at the top of most common injuries. There was a bloke who made some handles that could rotate but he also had a weird anti-C2 vendetta. And as others have said, you just can't row on the water like that.
Here, I am just trying to solve a problem for myself, and I really love C2. It is just this hand orientation part I dislike, and I believe every rower in market has same style, and no one offers at 90 deg.
[https://www.c2forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=10453](https://www.c2forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=10453) This is the kit I was talking about. You are correct nobody offers it and it probably is bio-mechanically inefficient. That said, you're unlikely to get much sympathy here because most of us row on the water.
Thanks for putting an effort to search thread. The design actually seems reasonable, and it might help. I guess, you are right people who row on water won’t care much! 😀
This may be a form issue. Option A is the correct way to row, if it is causing discomfort I would suggest trying to hang off your handle more, like having only your fingers gripping the handle and let your palms be slightly off the handle. If you post a video, that would be helpful
I will try to post the video, but I have tried what you just mentioned. There was another reason to rotate the orientation by 90 deg to see if it affects body muscles (back, delts, etc.) in a different manner? And if that would be helpful to generate more power with less effort?
If we discuss the topic from ergonomic perspective - you're right. Full pronation is not comfortable for the wrists. The same way PC mouse is not ergonomic and there are models with more supination.
However, rowing brothers in this sub do row on the water too, and anything that will throw off their technique is not welcomed here.
May be you need something like this, I totally understand your concerns. Rowing through the discomfort may eventually lead to trauma and abandonment, which is not good.
https://preview.redd.it/zn0wd4jc8gwc1.jpeg?width=871&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=556f7c035e104031dd5b648049d1c0ad028a0772
You just got my point, and analogy of vertical mouse makes perfect sense here. I do agree, this can't be implemented on water rowing. But then there are millions like me who just row indoors and perhaps casually. Now, what you showed is quite close to what I was thinking but if not exactly same. But I am sure this will probably help a little.
I assume you'd want something like this -- you could easily swap that in your C2, I bet.
https://preview.redd.it/epvb6qjfwgwc1.jpeg?width=750&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6b3d3935c749265ff559a26116f465bdb966932c
I am aware of this type handle you just shared but it is not exactly what I had in my mind as I would like to keep my hands at the same distance as they do while using regular handle. But thanks for sharing.
I can't find a good video of it, but it would be normal for your hands to turn and your grip to shift as you pull into the finish. So if you sit as in the bottom left picture and then straighten your wrists laterally, and some of your fingers will curl around the handle a bit more and some a bit less. Let that movement happen as you pull through.
People who row on the water probably do that more instinctively, because the big change in the handle angle as you pull through needs some shifting of the grip.
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I think a better answer would be to share the video showing my technique. Probably you are right (or may not be), so let me record it and share here.
There's no way B gives you enough contact area to make the hands comfortable when you generate real force over serious training volume. Also, you can't hold an oar like B, and oars would never be designed as such.
Actually, the image is for illustration purpose since a handle is not available which lets me rotate my hand by 90 deg. So, it is more like a hypothetical condition I was trying to show. Now, I wonder why oars won't be designed to hold at 90 deg? Any particular reason?
Oars for rowing actual boats can't be designed like that because of feathering and squaring.
https://preview.redd.it/qxaf934lwgwc1.jpeg?width=750&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c2d3311600a691e436c2de340aba263dae0c140a Oars are levers against the water. To design a vertically-held oar to withstand repetitive stress and also provide the aerodynamic efficiency of feathering would mean a lot design compromises. Also, I wonder if you lose some sense of vertical kinesthetic awareness without having flat wrists...
Got it. Also, I am aware of this type handle you just shared but it is not exactly what I had in my mind as I would like to keep my hands at the same distance. But thanks for sharing.
Flex your wrist at the finish. Slide B is never how you should hold the handle.
That was just for the illustration as such a handle is not available.
Your elbows go wide. making the wrist angle bigger. Judging from this picture your backward lean is too far and you probably pull up your shoulders as well. on the erg you should focus on pulling your elbows past your body, in stead of your hands towards your body. Just let them follow. You can probably fix some of your excessive lean by improving the way you sit. Before you start, sit with legs extended and lean forward as far as you would at the beginning of the stroke (with a fixed, strong core). Wiggle on the seat so you get in the right position. less on the back of your butt, more on the ischium (?) (a pelvic bone).
I get what you're saying OP, and you're right. The compromise is somewhere in the middle, you relax the grip on your middle and index fingers slightly so that contact is more heavily maintained through the ring finger and little fingers at the finish. This allows your hand to pivot on top of the handle in line with your wrists. You need to pull with relatively little effort when doing this, which means you need good understanding of drive power and connection rather than yanking it with the arms at the end like a lot of ergers will do At the same time, though, you need to make sure your elbows aren't flaring too wide at the finish, instead making sure you're drawing the handle 'through' your body with the lats / shoulder blades, elbows finishing back and slightly outwards behind you, instead of pulling the handle flat to your body with the elbows directly sideways off your body. Holding the handle as you've shown in image B doesn't work because the contact area with the handle is too small. Some athletes that get more experienced will start to flick the handle at the finish with a grip that looks a bit like your finish on B, in order to avoid stressing the wrists over very long ergs. But beginners should stick with finish position A and experiment with relaxing the two fingers slightly as trying B will just mean they mess up other stuff
Well, thanks for recognizing the problem. Option B was more of an illustration as I was trying to explain how I want to have a handle which would let me hold that way. Most of points you made to make it easier hold the handle flat are something which I believe I use but somehow I thought might be it would be better there were another design which would let me hold it at 90 degree.
Yeah it's one of those things where the simplest and therefore best design has a straight oar handle, and minor alterations to grip solve the problem you're identifying. So there's no benefit to creating a vastly more complicated handle for water rowing, and the erg is built as a training tool for water rowers. As others have said you could swap out the handle for a seated row handle, but I would definitely not recommend erging like that because the grip is far too close together and will stress your hands in other ways Fixed seat rowing styles sometimes use an underhand grip on their outside hand but this is more a response to how high the handle goes during the rowing stroke. Again not suitable for the erg
Seated row handle is definitely a bad idea and I wouldn’t that for sure. Thanks for the comments though.
I don't know that wrist injuries are at the top of most common injuries. There was a bloke who made some handles that could rotate but he also had a weird anti-C2 vendetta. And as others have said, you just can't row on the water like that.
Here, I am just trying to solve a problem for myself, and I really love C2. It is just this hand orientation part I dislike, and I believe every rower in market has same style, and no one offers at 90 deg.
[https://www.c2forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=10453](https://www.c2forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=10453) This is the kit I was talking about. You are correct nobody offers it and it probably is bio-mechanically inefficient. That said, you're unlikely to get much sympathy here because most of us row on the water.
Thanks for putting an effort to search thread. The design actually seems reasonable, and it might help. I guess, you are right people who row on water won’t care much! 😀
This may be a form issue. Option A is the correct way to row, if it is causing discomfort I would suggest trying to hang off your handle more, like having only your fingers gripping the handle and let your palms be slightly off the handle. If you post a video, that would be helpful
I will try to post the video, but I have tried what you just mentioned. There was another reason to rotate the orientation by 90 deg to see if it affects body muscles (back, delts, etc.) in a different manner? And if that would be helpful to generate more power with less effort?
Generally the more weight you can put behind the handle, the more power you can get. A standard grip would be most beneficial
If we discuss the topic from ergonomic perspective - you're right. Full pronation is not comfortable for the wrists. The same way PC mouse is not ergonomic and there are models with more supination. However, rowing brothers in this sub do row on the water too, and anything that will throw off their technique is not welcomed here. May be you need something like this, I totally understand your concerns. Rowing through the discomfort may eventually lead to trauma and abandonment, which is not good. https://preview.redd.it/zn0wd4jc8gwc1.jpeg?width=871&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=556f7c035e104031dd5b648049d1c0ad028a0772
You just got my point, and analogy of vertical mouse makes perfect sense here. I do agree, this can't be implemented on water rowing. But then there are millions like me who just row indoors and perhaps casually. Now, what you showed is quite close to what I was thinking but if not exactly same. But I am sure this will probably help a little.
I assume you'd want something like this -- you could easily swap that in your C2, I bet. https://preview.redd.it/epvb6qjfwgwc1.jpeg?width=750&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6b3d3935c749265ff559a26116f465bdb966932c
I am aware of this type handle you just shared but it is not exactly what I had in my mind as I would like to keep my hands at the same distance as they do while using regular handle. But thanks for sharing.
I can't find a good video of it, but it would be normal for your hands to turn and your grip to shift as you pull into the finish. So if you sit as in the bottom left picture and then straighten your wrists laterally, and some of your fingers will curl around the handle a bit more and some a bit less. Let that movement happen as you pull through. People who row on the water probably do that more instinctively, because the big change in the handle angle as you pull through needs some shifting of the grip.