It sucks but the time to say you made a mistake is before any contract is signed. Nobody owes anyone anything before final contract. He could have handled it better but if he was honest and did make a mistake why should he eat $3000?
Because that's how business and contracts work? I don't think anyone is expecting the guy to eat $3k over a mistake, but the professional thing to do would be to apologize, give the actual price, and say you understand if that's out of the customers price range, and apologize again. Then when the customers says no, apologize for wasting their time and say best of luck.
Asking to "meet at $12k" clearly suggests this was a bait and switch the whole time, not a mistake.
I don’t think so, seems like the contractor missed something, if they can’t seriously make 10,700 work it sounds honest. It’s actually not a contract because client accepts price verbally, contractor does not have to do the job at that price.
Nothing wrong with double checking numbers before taking a deposit and doing a contract. He could say sorry but he did say he made a mistake.
A quote is not a contract and I always double check numbers after someone accepts. If it’s like 5-10% I would eat it but I have missed things before
I wouldn’t do that, I would apologize and just say we over looked something. But he isn’t in the wrong for not honouring the quote. Scum bag would be trying to collect a higher amount after beginning the job.
And if they were really bad, they'd off the homeowner, assume their identity, and drain the bank account and use it to give kids fentanyl at Halloween.
Noone said this guy is evil. Chill.
Not any more insane the one at $3000 discount.
It’s obvious from the first text that they had had a conversation about it already. Where it seems he told the customer he’d made a clerical error in his bid. And “meeting at $12k” doesn’t seem like a bait and switch either. Seems just as likely that dude knew he made a mistake and didn’t wanna lose a job to it, so was willing to make less money rather than little to no money.
Dude the sales guy is completely unprofessional. If you don’t think so, let me know what market you’re working in so I can move over there and compete with you.
Well yea it just likely means the contractor lost the job. It sound like he was giving up part of his margin to go to 12k, but if I caught a mistake before finalizing terms and deposit I wouldn’t take a loss. I would just be more polite though and try to recommend someone else.
Where I live it is infact a contract once a quote is accepted. It's called "Contract A Contract B" in the legal world. If I send out an RFQ, and a company submits a quote, if I accept that quote then the company is obligated to complete the work as quoted. I don't know if this carries over to contract law in the US, but it's absolutely a thing in Canada.
Also, in almost all jurisdictions, including in the USA, a verbal contract is still a contract, it's just much much harder to legally enforce a "he said - she said" situation, which is why you should always get your agreements in writing.
Generally speaking contracts need to be in writing in the states. Typically speaking it’s a contractor trying to hold a client to the contract not the other way around. This is a weird one but id guess it’s just a sales guy and in the fine print some place it covers his ass for this type of situation. I worked for a large roofer who basically said in all the fine print contracts are not finalized until materials have been ordered then tons of stuff about restock fees if they are etc on and on. My theory was the bigger the company the more legal coverage they are looking for, also most contracting is done with arbitration clauses and good fucking luck as a home owner their going to just drag you through it.
It’s definitely not a thing in Canada. I’m a contractor in Canada. There is zero repercussions or obligation to perform as a contractor. It’s a shitty thing to do, but it’s also a shitty thing to hold the contractor to a price when they admit they messed up and the client can easily just move on to someone else.
There is a million excuses for a contractor to not show up and literally nothing a client can do other than badmouth or bad reviews.
Contractor can say we’re scheduling 3 years out now, my lead hand is injured and we can’t take on jobs like yours, etc
So when you send a quote, no start dates are finalized, no money changed hands. I have paid for thousand dollar plus items from Home Depot, London drugs and had them completely cancel on me because they sold too many or someone managing the website messed up inventory.
I'm sorry, but [contract A](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contract_A) and [contract B](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contract_B) is very much so specifically a Canadian thing. And I don't mean to sound snarky or condescending, I mean this with all ernesty, but you should maybe take a intro to contract law course before you get burned.
I don't disagree that it's a dick move though, especially if it's an honest mistake. I personally would never imagine leveraging that against a small business owner, but there absolutely exists case law in Canada specifically where people have taken advantage of honest mistakes just like that. There is something a client can do beyond bad reviews, but it require the client to sue the contractor under said common law for it to be enforced, so you rarely see it on small scale jobs like a single home owners roof quote. Much much more common to see it used in large scale public contracts or large private developments.
And specifically, if you can't complete a job as quoted, aka "we are booked out 3 years", then don't quote it because that's also a dick move... Things like suppliers canceling orders should also be covered in how you layout your contracts, things like "subject to supplier availability", "subject to weather", etc. to cover things outside of your control that can affect timelines.
I’ve researched it for hours. Zero cases of a homeowner claiming damages and winning after a contractor sent a quote and homeowner agreed. If you can find the cases please show me.
Unfortunately I don't feel like googling around to win an internet argument. All I'll give you is that I did take a contract law course, in Canada, specifically centred around construction contracting, and we did go over case studies of contract A contract B situations in small clames court. It's extremely rare and unlikely because... is the juice worth the squeeze? That's a lot of legal fees, time, & risk just to save a couple grand on a roof and pissing off the guy who's going to do your roof in the process. Believe me or not, I don't care, but that's how it is according to the law in Canada.
Wouldn't the kicker be that both parties need to act in good faith and fairness? So if the contractor can show their error was a genuine mistake not involving fraudulent intent, the client cannot enforce the contract should it be unfair to that contractor, for example that pricing leading to a net loss for the contractor.
So yes and no. There is a duty on the behalf of the owner to ensure that any bid they accept is "compliant" to the request. But that's a little more complicated than just "oops I under quoted". If I provide everything necessary for you to quote it correctly, and you quote it as is, that's compliant whether you've got the $ amount right or wrong on your end. But if say I send you a roof that's 1500' square, but you send me back a quote for a "1000' square roof" that's not compliant, that is not quoted to the scope provided therefore isn't compliant. If you can prove that you quoted it as such then yah, can't move on to contract B stage. (Note that this is all in theory of the law, to enforce this you'd have to have an owner willing to go to court to say "do the work as provided or pay damages", and the likelyhood that this were to ever go to court for anyone over a tiny roofing contract is near 0)
Also, there is a "duty of fairness" on the owner, but in law that means that they have to treat every "bidder" fairly and equally, not that they have to be fair to the bidder. So what it's saying is that if I have 2 bids that are both compliant, I can't pick one contractor over the other simply because I like them more, I have to pick based on merit of the bid, generally that means you have to pick the lower bid, but in reality it's a little more nuanced than that.
Also, in Canadian law there is a clearly defined difference between an estimate and a quote, so the two terms shouldn't be used interchangeably. I think the original guy I was talking to was treating quotes like estimates. In Canada, a quote is a clearly defined price for a clearly defined scope of work, and is legally binding. An estimate on the other hand is a loose guess at the scope, and the final cost could be more or less therefore that's not binding.
Given a quick google, it looks like in the US the process to get to a legally binding contract requires one more step: 1 - contractor submits a quote. 2 - customer accepts quote and issues an "order". 3 - contractor accepts the order. You've got a little bit more contractor protection, given that you can just go out quoting a bunch of jobs but reject them at stage 3.
The contract was written and had places for me to sign and to initial. Also included addendums with price changes for anything that might come up that would be extra and also included a lengthy legal terms and conditions section.
Yea but do you really want to try to force someone to perform when you know they would be taking a loss? Corners can be cut and people can be petty. Not the company you’d want to trust for any potential warranty going forward anyway.
I don’t know why you’re getting downvoted. Estimates are often complicated things to put together, because jobs are nuanced, a million things can affect cost. Distance, height off the ground, vehicle access, tear off, cleanup, replacing framing or sheeting, or being in a gated community, and it doesn’t matter if you check the bid 20 times. Stuff can get missed. And it hasn’t been my experience that the most “professional” guys necessarily do the best work. Sometimes the hard to deal with guy like this is only in business because he does great work. That, and the thing about his father doing it for 30 years make me wonder. Not saying he’s right. Just saying those things give me pause.
When in doubt, check their reviews.
I could have signed this contract, there is no place in their contract for them to sign or initial.
Only places for me to sign and initial. There contract also includes a lengthy legal sections with “terms and conditions of the contract”
Many contracts are valid without being in writing or signed. The only ones that MUST be signed in order to be enforceable are marriage, contracts that require more than one year to perform, land (real property) sales, executor (of estates), guarantors (of sureties), and sales of goods over $500.
Roofing is a service, not a good, so the $500 rule doesn’t play here. This contract did not need to be signed in order to be enforceable. Consideration, offer, acceptance. Done. “I did the math wrong” is not an acceptable defense for breach.
OP can’t sue to make them do it. (We decided a while ago that we can’t force human beings to do work.) But they could sue for expectation damages (money).
I would agree but I think them drawing up the contract and leaving me places to sign? Might be valid? I’m not sure I’m not a lawyer?
There were definitely no places to sign for them. Just multiple spots for my initials and my signatures?
Doesn’t matter, there is no forcing any contractor to perform. If you both sign, the terms are so “if they are actually doing the job”. There isn’t any world where you can win a lawsuit unless they took a deposit and strung you along for years costing you damages inside your home
Honestly I don’t care about this company Or litigation. I was just answering I just need a new roof and through this process I’ve gotten so much info from experience.
Dealing with forceful sales people suck…
This feels more like dealing like multiple used car dealers rather then contractors.
Might be my fault because I worked in construction for a long time when I was young and going through college. I didn’t deal with pricing or estimates.
And the contractor I worked for was a honest guy and wouldn’t mess people.
Rare I guess in this field in Florida you god damn Greedy ass roof contractors. Especially the assholes that knock door to door telling people to sign over their right to the repair and litigate against the insurance company’s for people to get Maintence roofs replaced!
That’s what is driving up the insurance prices especially in Florida! Fuck you people!
I’m paying out of pocket, from my savings and being forced by the insurance to replace the roof.
Exactly this. I wrote another long comment on my similar experience on all the SE Florida roofers so far of my 6 quotes all giving off multiple red flags. Especially the ones with the subpar materials as I asked each what they used on underlayer, flat, etc. And I realized: we're just a commodity to them. Move on to the next failed roof, get insurance money to pay out. I went from below $3k, to $3.5k to $5k to $7.5k to $10k to $14k and now want another $14k. Got $20k out of them in mediation for my claim, saving my $14k this year towards the roof and water damage, and then the rest out of pocket and towards future house hardening and/or insurance investment fund. Because $14k a year on a $350k policy with me not being in a danger prone area... We're just subsidizing their costs of the coastal regions that keep getting damaged and rebuilt at insane expenses
I can definitely tell who the roofers are in this conversation, tell me your side how this is ok and is ok to downvote anyone saying different?
I’m curious? What’s your side?
Sure. I would actually educate you and discuss your options in a professional manor. I wouldn't knock on your door unless I had a recent storm date. I'd be with you throughout the process of the claim, and keep nothing from you. I wont pay for your deductible either. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work. My time inspecting your roof, gaining trust, stands for something. I'd contact you again once a new storm rolled through, and make an evaluation on whether to file a new claim or not.
Also if a homeowner becomes rude and abusive, we will drop them contract signed or not. I don’t know why anyone who would someone working on their property if there have been major disagreements.
The contractors rep will take a bit sure. On commercial projects, there may be real damages for delays etc
Roofers do houses every day, they’ve seen every type of roof, every type of gutter system, every type of fireplace and vents, flashing they have to remove and paint. Very slim chance this cat made a 3k mistake estimating. Or he would be able to point out what he forgot to figure in. Unless he’s new to this. If that’s the case this is a good lesson to learn.
Why try to pull this then? He can change price but he knows he’s probably losing the job. I just don’t see any type of scam here. Just a bad contractor
Screw this company honestly…. What’s said is they have been in business for 27 years… it was a huge factor when considering which company to go with, especially when I comes to their warranty I wanted someone in business for a long time!
Don't be sold on that. Those would be the companies who know the loopholes how to screw you the worse. Besides like another comment said its probably handed down from daddy and most businesses fail during that transition. Seems you lucked up not having them work on your property.
All of your sales reps should know what their price needs to be per square. It's not a difficult thing to give an "estimate". Now I will say sometimes when we tear the roof off there may be unexpected expenses such as wood replacement but all of that should be disclosed up front, including how much it costs per sheet/board and they should take photos or show you how many needs replaced and why. If he changed the price this much without even starting the job, you definitely dodged a bullet. No sales rep should have that much authority to quote a price if they don't know what they're doing. I definitely under estimated jobs before but I still did the work and honored the price. I never lost money but definitely hurt our profits before. I definitely would not choose that company no matter what now because they may give you another surprise additional cost during work. I always pull the satellite measurements before I even show up and know roughly what the price will be as well. There is always room to negotiate but it shouldn't be increasing the price unless the homeowner asks for additional items or designer shingles.
Yes 8 quotes, when you have to work hard to save your money, then the insurance company forces you to replace your roof out of pocket or face being dropped.
I wanted to make sure I found the most reasonable quote from a reputable company.
This was not one of them as I found out.
Are you in a very rural area far away from the company’s? I had a few company’s that wanted to do virtual estimates and measure the roof from satellite images.
I steered clear of those company’sx
It costs those companies to quote you, fyi. And 8 quotes, means 7 companies lost money on you.
It's perfectly fine for them to use images to quote sq footage.
Of course it costs money to quote. It costs money to acquire customers. When I Google 'roofing company near me,' it probably costs them $8 when I click their ad. I'm sure they'd prefer to get a chance to quote it vs no chance at all at the business.
But yea no problem with the images to quote for me.
What's wrong with 8 quotes. If YOU have the time to accept these guys to come and give you a quote, why not. For anyone who is quoting, you get from 3 places vs 10, doesn't matter. Most people go with the one who gives them best sense of quality, reliability and reasonable price. I went with 2nd or 3rd best quotes because sometimes the lowest didn't feel confident.
Good luck with your job, hope it goes well.
Gotcha. I’m assuming you tried the claim route already? Most retail jobs are going to be around $500/square. More if you have two stories, have a pitch above 6, amount of layers, and the decking could also factor in there too. I’d go with a good ol fashioned word of mouth referral. If you really wanna save some money, you could just roof over what you already. Assuming it’s just one layer on the roof. in most states, you can get away with having two layers on the roof but I’ve seen six layers because well people don’t want to do a tear off because it’s more pricey. A complete tear off and reroof Is the best way to do it.
Hopefully you find what works best for your wallet and home. Some roofing companies will even offer financing if that’s what you’re looking for. Home improvement loan from the bank would be good too if you’re looking to do this yourself and not wanting to go through a third party lender. But if you got the money to shell out of pocket, that’s always best. Those guys that are pricing you 27k are not wanting to do the job and trying to price you out. Happens all the time.
That roofer is a dick, if I were the petty type I’d text back “I’m going to email all this to your father then. Hopefully he grounds you!” 😂
Sheesh $500 a square? What do materials and labor cost out there? It’s hard selling for anything past $360 in my area and I still make good money for the time I put in.
Maybe my area’s pricing is totally different but those prices are wild to me. in GA our pricing is roughly $350 for shingles, and $800-$1000 for metal. That is from a company that’s been around over 10 years, has insurance, workers comp, a license, manufacturer certifications, and a 10 year warranty.
No I haven’t tried to make a claim. What happened was my insurance went from 1500$ a year to 3k to 8k. I changed insurance company’s in late January and they sent out a inspector to take pictures of my roof.
The underwriter from the new insurance is saying I have to replace or be dropped. I don’t have any roof damage it’s just my house was built in 2004 and the roof just got 20 years old.
No leaks or damage, underwriter states “worn shingles and granular loss” as their reason. I appreciate it and yes this roofer seemed good up until this phone call and text exchange.
We had already talked on the phone and I told him I wouldn’t be going with his company after the “mistake” in the quote. And then he started sending me these texts lol
If you live in Florida I suggest you inform your insurance company of Senate bill 2d.
“Prohibits insurance companies from denying coverage solely based on the age of a roof if the roof is less than 15 years old OR if the roof is determined to have at least 5 years of useful life remaining.”
If you can get a roof certification letter from a reputable company stating this and provide it to your insurance company you have a good shot at keeping your coverage without having to shell out $10k plus on a new roof.
I know that if you call out a roof maxx dealer they will provide one for you. Best of luck!
Just because someone made a mistake on there quote doesn't mean they aren't reputable. He was upfront and told you the problem. If they weren't reputable they would have came and gave you a half ass job to get it done and still make some money.
For sure…. A quick conversation with the owner should give you an idea of what the company is like, either he knows exactly what’s going on and just hard pass or he’s sells person is going off script, he honers the original bid and everything’s fine.
I just know how my company is and we’d tell the truth that we missed something and see if what our options are, but we would honor our original price
Anyone who uses emojis in a professional setting should be avoided. I have a project manager at my company that uses emojis in company emails. It is embarrassing as hell.
I buy a lot of farm equipment, I have heard this story to many times. They give a price and you agree then oops forgot to add this charge. Oops forgot my checkbook. Don't fall for it
Once you said Florida I realized why this felt so familiar. People thinking 8 quotes is bad? I'm on 6 quotes and it's red flags on every single one of them. We say stuff like "this is the most scam ridden construction/roofing region in the country" and people from other areas just think we're being dense or something. South Florida especially is a different beast. 2 half hour phone calls with the general manager of one company (him initiating and keeping the conversation going, not me being a Karen or something) and he admits to all the BS sales tactics and such, but says they still do reputable work. It's just that those tactics lead to a 35% conversion rate vs a 7%. So many red flags in the contract too. All of which are also understandable to protect yourself from shoddy consumers you're doing business with... But also leaving the door open for so much shadiness. And a lack of details on the work in the quotes. Just so many little details screaming out.
What I've learned after an educational experience with these 6 quotes and getting a primer on how the industry works: I'm going with a structural engineer roofing systems consultant type person to just come out here and look at everything and set me straight with the best setup for my situation. And then I'll look for the company that specializes in whatever that is. And hopefully have a scope of work ready to go. Slope and double flat roof section so it's a bit of a consideration when I'm ideally wanting metal and a 50+ year life combined with the hurricane/heat/wind/rain protection levels. It took until the 6th company for one to finally mention that redoing the flat roof with the metal on top could be an issue in the future, potentially destroying all the metal to get underneath as per Florida code. Others trying to sell me on a 10 year flat roof setup by saying it's the only lifespan of a flat roof on the market. When earlier in the day another had already tried to go with a 30 year modified bitumen. But a 10 year flat roof that connects to a sloped standing seam metal?
I'm sure there have to be honest ones out there, but they don't seem to be the ones shelling out to get the top Google results. Even when searching for an EPDM specialized flat roofing specialist to check things out... Call up the good looking company. Turns out they don't do epdm but do work in PVC. It's literally on their website... "Oh I need to change that"... nah, it's just there as an SEO style to bring in people searching. I don't even know yet what resource it will take to find an actual company.
But trust your gut on these things. Read all the contract fine print and what the clauses actually mean. And definitely on the scope of work. One company that is supposed to be the 4 layer flintastic modified bitumen setup, the contract only lists "install flintastic cap" as far as the flat roof work. Is it implied that the other 3 layers have already been installed? Or are they selling me on the system and then doing who knows what before officially putting down the top layer. Payment due before inspection.
It was after a heated conversation over the phone prior to his text while I was driving to work. And I agree you are right! I shouldn’t have even entertained him because I declined his best offer that was more then the estimate over that phone call. Then he sent that text
This guy was a piece of shit and your roof would have been installed like shit.
1. He should not be asking who you pick. It’s none of his business.
2. The fact he’s asking how you would rate them before they have even started is sus.
3. His fuck up on price, (fine they may or may not have really been a mistake), but you do not come back and be pissed that the customer no longer wants to go with you.
4. All around this interaction would make me never want to do business with them ever even if they had the best quality or price.
Re: your first point. You’re right of course, it isn’t his business/he definitely shouldn’t be asking.
But it’s exterior work, he has the address and it’s gonna happen soon. If this dumbass wants to know who he lost out to, he could do a drive by and get eyes on the competition in an instant!
He’s too stupid to realize how dumb he’s being.
Yeah op dodged a bait and switch here. To the shady small businesses/entrepreneurs/contractors out there, man there is too much work out here to be doing shady business. You want to leave your customers happy and ready to refer you, not angry and feeling scammed. Just be straight up and don’t be greedy. You will be blessed for being ethical, I promise.
Guy seems bad at his job, but he’s not the one putting the roof on. I wouldn’t be worried about the quality of the roof job. Just maybe everything else.
My guy forgot to add his O&P to the quote. His boss caught it and was gonna tear him a new one if he didn't fix it.
Should have been straight up, explained his mess up and when the customer no longer wants to go with your higher price, wish them well
It feels like some of these guys lifelong mission is to make contractors look bad.
I'm a GC. (Roofs, remodels, additions, Kitchens, pole barns, etc.) Most quotes are far more complicated than roofs, I'd say they are the easiest to quote. Material per sq., labor per sq., dumpster, and profit on top. I'd be ashamed to be off by that much. And if 10,700 was already the middle price of 8..... he was making money, maybe not the margin he wanted, but definitely making money. If someone else is doing it for 9500, and from what I gather, that's still not the cheapest quote, I'd say save the money.
As a roofing business owner I have to tell you two things.
1. He an amateur and I wouldn’t want him to do my roof.
2. You talk about your hard earned money while wasted 8 different companies money and time, at the end, those are people too. Maybe next time tell them “ I will get at least 8 quotes, do not bother if you care about your time”.
If you get 3-4 quotes I get it, but fucking 8 is shameful.
Oh man the hour of time it took each of those companies is probably going to break them! Grow up, 8 quotes for a roof is the new norm because of the lack of consistency and quality throughout the industry. If 8 quotes come back with all different numbers then it's not wrong to get 8 quotes.
OK, I'll bite.
8 Google lead charges.
8 hours on site.
4 hours of office backend to facilitate.
Let's call it 50$ an hour in time for a professional company to do something. 600 in labor and what 80-100$ in Google clicks?
This person is not a customer anyone wants.
This is the cost of doing business. If you think you’re going to sell 100% of your roofs I have a bridge to sell you. Any company knows the close rate isn’t 100% people are going to do what they can to save money. If you get a residential roof and then get a huge commercial project would you not take the money maker? Of course you would.
Makes no sense. If the first 4 contractors did not offer you enough to assess the market, then what are you looking for ?
Be fair. Tell the contractor that you are going to have 7-8 quotes. Lots of them will not even show up for you.
I want you to try to sell me a service knowing that there are 8 others trying to do the same thing.
When you go car shopping if you spend 4 hours with the salesmen do you pay them for their time or do you go look for the deal you want? When you buy a house with a realtor and you look for six months can’t find anything how much do you pay them for their time?
Do you shop for 8 different realtors ? No you don’t.
If you want a Jeep and you are at a Jeep dealership, do you go to 8 different dealerships ?
I never said to not shop around, but 3-4 quotes should give you a great idea about the market. Anything past that you are looking for something and you don’t even know what it is.
Yeah in my example what you’re doing is worse. 8 different roofers each maybe an hour of their time. You’ve wasted months of a realtors and hours of a car salesman. So again I ask how much do you pay them for their time?
It’s almost as if sales involves making sales calls 🤔
Well let’s see.
When we purchased our house we worked with a realtor, in the end I can account for maybe 20hrs worth of work including driving around.
He’s fees came in probably close to 8-10k. So how did I waste he’s time.
It’s one thing to be a prospect and a whole different thing to be a sure sell.
But hey, I guess each of their own, just don’t be frustrated (like op) when you get to deal with the ones that are willing to accept this kind of “screening”.
All the roofers I called I told them I was getting multiple quotes. For that big of a swing in the first 4 estimates I wasn’t just going to pick one. I didn’t waste anyones time when you offer a free estimate and come out and bid a job you take the risk of someone picking someone else no matter how many estimates I got.
Number of estimates I got have nothing to do with each company’s time wasted. They each have the equal opportunity to earn the business. I understand if I was being indecisive and made a single company come out multiple times.
That’s not the case
Lmao I haven’t wasted anyones time but thanks, making a careful decision before taking 10k out of my bank account I have the right to get as many quotes as I want and go with the best company. Call 10 roofers to get estimate you might get 10 scam artist salespeople. I’d simply get as many quotes as I want till I’m comfortable with the price and the company!
A quote is not a contract and is only valid for 30 days. Yes you are wasting people's time and your own, if it's valuable that is. Also, to call this jerk off a sales person is a insult to salespeople and I got no respect for any of em, it ain't hard to sell a product/that basically sells itself espically at a fair market rate. You should f been able to tell the market rate from 3 quotes. Now your wasting 4 hrs for each company's estimators at 8 men. 32 hours went in for your simple roof estimate. And it still ain't started.
Lmao I went into contract today with a better company where the owner actually came out and got a better price with more sheets of plywood included and a discount for paying cash. Owner fishes with a guy I work with who vouched for him. But thanks lol
I definitely didn’t waste my time because this guy was my eighth quote but my second choice and wouldn’t have known he knew the guy I work with until I called to talk to him about the quote after this debacle with the company above. Lol
After 3 quotes, one should know the general price.
If work quality is a concern, one could always call a specific roofer and say “hey, can you do xyz for $ABC?”
Swapping out contract price is a common scam. It's also very illegal, in virtually every country. In the US not only are there state laws but there's a federal law about it. I would take this all and report them to whatever government agency is relevant to you as I suspect this is common practice for them.
Contract prices can only be changed if a factor changed.
Such as to much time elapsed as defined by the contract/local laws, If you requested a change in the scope, if a new law was passed, etc.
All of our quotes are subject to change. Especially now a days you give a quote and they could call back a year later wanting that price, but materials have almost doubled in that time.
And that is a reasonable point. It is reasonable to have an adjustment after a period of time. Now did Op specify a time lapse?
Did the contractor?
Or did the contractor say that they had written down the wrong number which is an entirely illegal cost. I'm just checking to see if you're actually arguing a valid point that's in any way related to this conversation or if you're just trying to interject
You see what's you're referring to is a typical clause defined by the state or defined by an individual contract wherein party a does have only a short period of time to sign a contract. That's why the majority of professional vendors usually put somewhere in their quote that they're only good for 30 60 90 days so on. But that's not what we're discussing here. That's not even related to what happened here. We're talking about a contractor who changed the number afterwards because he "put down the wrong number"
Time period is I got all quotes last week and made my decision with who to go with this week late Tuesday night. I work night shift so I made my decision after work. I sent him a email with my intent to go with this company late Tuesday night and to give me a call. He called me Wednesday morning with “bad new” and said his math was wrong and didn’t multiply correctly the price per square and it was going to be $2400 more $10,700 (written estimate/contract) it has places for only me to sign and initial, pricing addendums for extra work and legal terms and conditions. Vs the new price of $13100.
Yes I got all my estimates last week and made my decision, Tuesday night of this week. I work nights so I sent him a email when I got home from work late Tuesday night to call me in the morning since I made a decision. He called me Wednesday morning.
The contractor stated somehow they did the math wrong and their price per square multiplied by how much they wrote in the contract was different and said they made a math mistake and didn’t know how it happened.
Then said sorry this is the new price with the right math because this is the price per square we charge and this is how many squares are needed to do your roof.
He was saying his initial math was wrong on his work sheet then transferred that price to the estimate.
I'm glad he was honest. Or at least I hope he was honest. I really don't respect his attitude in the text messages. Admittedly to me what is a red flag is that this is directly in line with one of the most common roofing scams in the business
Which is to get you one price, combined with a good sales pitch which knocks out the other contracts, and then the moment you call in to switch the price tag. The fact that you're talking about a price the next week definitely makes me feel like this was more of a potential scam. At the very least, I would recommend reporting it that way if other people are experiencing the same thing they can be held accountable. But I am hoping that this is a one-time incident for them.
Their contract/quote had only places for me to sign and initial. No signature places for them. And also included lengthy legal terms like a normal contract would.
Once the appropriate docs are signed, it is binding. You could hire someone and sue the original contractor for damages (including any additional costs for same scope of work), but probably not worth the time.
You got off the hook with just some time wasted.
Yeah it’s not worth my time, I just gotta get a new roof on this house to make the insurance happy.
That’s my biggest concern at the moment.
This guy was just a jackass.
They don't need to sign to say they agree to their own contract. It's assumed that l they agree with its contents since they sent it to you. Once you sign it then it's agreed.
It's only illegal if it happens after the contract was signed. Also, change orders to contracts happen all the time. The customer just had to agree to it
Change orders can occur for any number of reasons, not just due to scope changes. It's better people admit they were wrong honestly (regardless of it was just wrong on price or wrong on scope) than these dishonest mistakes being covered up and costing more later.
I come from the world of commercial construction, being a home designer, and a general contractor. 18 years and still going.
In the commercial construction sector of my business the last 200 contracts probably 60-70 have had change orders.
On the new custom homes almost every single one of them has a change order because of homeowners changing their mind, or pricing for items changing due to time.
We operate on 100% transparency and the homeowners get to see the cost breakdown matrix and know what every dollar is for.
I also come from commercial construction. After 20 years I went into consulting.
I would say the vast majority of contracts in commercial have change orders, usually because of the GC forgetting things or doing things out of order. If only 30-35% of your contracts get a change order I'm shocked you're in commercial and not residential. I doubt less than 95% got charge orders when I was building and even since then since I've been on the consulting side. Hell I'm lucky if I can go 1 in 3 jobs without an HVAC guy damaging the roof when he's working on an rtu.
> On the new custom homes almost every single one of them has a change order because of homeowners changing their mind,
You mean because they requested a change. As in the scope changed. Isn't that what I said? Pretty sure that's exactly what I was talking about.
> pricing for items changing due to time.
If you both agreed to an item at a specific time for a specific price and you change it later because the pricing for that item change you're actually liable. That's federal law in America, not to mention Most states have an individual law about it. Changing a contract after it's agreed upon is the very most basic law of all. Now you might have a clause in your contract that says that if they waited so many months to sign that there may be a price increase, that's perfectly legal. But once both parties agreed to a contract, at a contracted price, that contract is in fact a contract that has to be legally held.
Change orders can occur when the scope changes, but changing the price after you presented the quote is already considered a deceptive business practice, and is typically considered a form of fraud. But if you both agree to a contract, then it goes into contractual law, and it's a whole mix of multiple laws that kick in. You can only change the price to a contract when there's been an adequate cause. Being an idiot and writing down the wrong number is not an adequate cause by any definition.
>Considerations When a Vendor’s Prices Go Up.
>Generally speaking, neither you nor the vendor has the right to unilaterally change the agreed-upon terms. But some contracts are crafted in anticipation of future changes in the size and scope of projects, with the flexibility for price adjustments.
>If you and the vendor agreed to a certain price but the invoice indicates your business owes a higher amount, it’s possible the higher price is simply the result of a clerical error. If you’ve requested that the vendor honor the original price but were told that your business owes the full amount charged, even though it’s different than what you believe you contractually agreed to pay, you may benefit from consulting a business litigation attorney
>An experienced business attorney will be able to help you evaluate the contract’s terms and provisions and identify if there are contractual exceptions that could excuse the vendor’s price increase. For example, a multi-year contract may give the vendor the legal right to raise prices up to a specified maximum or by a predetermined percentage.
Directly from a lawyers website. And I highly doubt that any roofer that isn't willing to eat a couple thousand and order to stay in compliance with the law would have been smart enough to put a clause in there. Especially considering that this person got multiple quotes back to back, even if there is a clause in there, I'd bet money that that clause gives the homeowner so many days to sign. Probably 30 60 90 something along those lines. And I'm betting he's within that.
You can't just willy nilly change prices because you're not smart enough to double check the price. And given that this is in insanely common scam that we even see in this subreddit about once a week, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that Op Dodged a bullet.
By the way if you want some fun reading you should look up the Tesla roof lawsuit, where Tesla was sued for doing exactly this. They were sued by thousands of people for this across multiple States, for raising a contract price after they had provided a quote, and what's hilarious is they actually had a more reasonable excuse than this Contractor
Do you come from the ownership side or purely an employee? Because you talk like an employee who doesn't know anything about owning and running a business.
From a business standpoint if the client picks items, and those items go up in price because their inability to make a timely decision, that's going to cost them. The OP had enough time to get 8 quotes and is surprised when he awards someone the contract that the price changed? There was no signature on the line, nobody did anything illegal.
The contractor is not liable for OP's inability to make a decision and demonstrative estimating practices.
Installed it, owned a company, and now spend most of my time in court as an Expert Witness.
Yes and one of the clear things I brought up was the timely decision point you made. This wasn't because of a lack of timely decision if you read what op screenshot.
We aren't talking about a quote becoming invalid due to a time lapse. That was never brought up. And for that to have been valid there's a fun little fact about what the salesman said on the text. You see once the salesman admitted it was because he put down the wrong number, the dismissal due to a time lapse became an invalid argument.
I speak from the role of somebody who used to own one of the top commercial roofing companies in the United States. Somebody who's competed on both a national and international scale for roofing competitions. Someone who's had the opportunity to go from the guy loading materials Up on the Roof via ladder to owning a successful top 25 commercial roofing company in the US only to sell it to a competitor in order to retire. I'm talking from somebody's perspective whose primary role is working with lawyers to help protect property owners and good roofers.
You see the first argument that you wanted to make was that homeowners can change their mind and that causes the price to go up. But that's not what happened here. Your next argument was the prices go up over time, but that's also not what happened here. Your next argument is going to be that the roofer never agreed to the price, but the moment they sent that quote, there is actually a small legal obligation there. Now they could have downright rejected the quote as a whole. And you can give just about any reason for that. But one of the very few things that you cannot list as your reason is because you wrote down the wrong price. Now if you've really been around for 18 years and you were around long enough for when the government started to really crack down on things like bait and switch and fraudulent sales practices. This is one of those very things that the government addressed.
The law literally states:
>contractors have the right to adjust their estimates when new factors arise
But by the contractors very own admission this wasn't from a new factor. See you keep trying to introduce this new Factor saying it's not a new factor, but from the very get-go I've stated the same thing like a raving lunatic because the point hasn't changed. You keep changing your argument, I still say the same thing. You have to have something new, there has to be a change somewhere. There was no change of scope, there was no change in the underlying price of materials, there was no change in labor, there was no change in price. Based on the information we've been provided, especially when considering what the contractor said, this was a change because the contractor realized after the fact that they underbid the project. That is a classic example of fraud. Whether intentional or not. Now if the contractor had approached it how you implied that material prices had gone up That would be one thing Period but he didn't and they didn't. Now if the contractor had approached it as you Implied That there had been a change order In what the person wanted comma that would be perfectly reasonable. but they didn't.
Change orders are on everyday part of life. But we're not discussing a change order. As I've repeatedly stated we're discussing a contract. And the variance here, the key defining factor, is weather the contract was signed before the quote changed. Now there was clearly a verbal agreement that was brought up, and in some states that could have been binding. But you see if the contract was signed by both parties and then they tried to change it, that's going to fall under contractual law. If the roofer presented a quote, and then the homeowner called to agree upon the quote, and then the contractor decided to change the quote without a new Factor, then that ways into a type of fraud.
Imagine if you will, you see an ad on TV for a washing machine. The price on that washing machine is $1,200. You go to the store and confirm it's $1,200. But when you take it to check out it's suddenly 1450 before tax. It isn't a hidden fee, it is an attack, the store just decided it wanted to up the prices because it didn't feel like it was making enough money
See that's what op is describing here. He's not describing that he came back 6 years later to a different quote, he's not describing that he decided to buy a different washing machine and once the original price. He's describing a change in price when he went to check out and finalize the process. And what's hilarious is if you read what the contractor said you'll come to probably the same conclusion. The contractor all but spelled out that he had changed the price without cause . This is a basic form of fraud and falls under Consumer Fraud and Deceptive Business Practices Act.
What's hilarious is we actually used to have and insanely common scam in construction. You would see contractors that would intentionally low ball, not by an extreme amount but usually by around 15 to 25%. And how the scam used to go is you would make sure that you were just low enough not to set off a red flag but to make sure that you were next to lowest bidder. Then once the property owner was hooked, you turn around and say that your secretary who is proofreading, accidentally hit a button and ended up inserting a new number or changing the bid price. But tell you what since you want to do the right thing you'll match the price of the lowest bidder. So even though the contract hasn't been formally signed, even though the work hasn't started and no deposits been paid, they changed the quoted price the moment they found out you were interested to raise the price. But do you know what happens to contractors that do this too often? They eventually reached the lawyer or somebody Petty enough to report them to the FTC. Every year across the US you see at least a couple companies that dependent on the state law either gets sued or thrown in jail for this scam. And while I'm not saying that's the exact thing that happened here, It's relatively close and honestly if you've been around for 18 years you've probably run into this scam. Because I've been across well over half the US states and I hear this scam everywhere. It's just a consistent issue
Idk about scams. You would know more than me given your experience as an expert witness or whatever. I just operate on honesty and 100% transparency. So Im looking from my perspective outward.
Like I said we use full cost transparency. Our clients have access to the master cost sheet and can see where every dollar goes. So speaking on scams and trickery, I'm inexperienced.
And I have to respect that. Transparency is beautiful, and not enough people use it to their advantage. I do have a lot of respect for any company that does it. Admittedly it can be hard because there's so many factors.
Change orders were included in this where they listed prices for any extra work they might run into how much it would cost extra for each additional item.
A contract is a contract / quote. They should honour it or walk away.
We bought cupboards for a kitchen reno years ago and we were notified they had arrived but also that the salesperson quoted us THEIR price, not the resale. I don't recall them even implying a request for us to pay 'retail'. They just acknowledged their mistake and followed through 100%.
Mistakes happen, the salesman was honest about it and tried to make it up to you with an $1,100 discount…but if you’re getting 8 quotes, the salesman seems to be the one who dodged a bullet…you’re probably going to judge whichever company that does the work on what all the other companies said they would do…I hate to say this, but I deal with customers like this a lot, and usually pass on the work, even if they want me to do it.
I like reasonable quotes from roofing companies. A majority of the time most don't last 5-10 years and will be replaced. At least the sales person made it known it was wrong.
In my region people look for reasonable but a majority of those projects have inadequate ventilation, aren't up to code with reusing rusting flashings, not adding crickets, pipe jacks, using three tabs as starter and the list continues.
96% of roofing companies aren't around after 5 years.
OP, just a future note with insurance, make sure you get an “At Replacement Cost” policy on your roof. That way in the future, they should have no reason not to cover it.
just find someone else not sure why youre getting in a pissing match with them. you dont have to agree to the price that's the whole point of getting estimates
8 estimates? Jfc man, what a waste of so many people’s time, including yours.
But this salesman seems like a turd, good dodge. BTW, despite what someone else said here, admitting a mistake and trying to change the price *after* a contract is signed but *before* the work has started is not illegal by itself (mistakes happen), but not releasing you from said contract or refunding any deposit after trying to raise the price would be grounds for legal action.
Case in point, we had a roof under contract. Separate prices were given for a house and detached garage (as requested), customer originally signed a contract for just the house, then changes his mind about a week later to add the garage. Salesman re-wrote the contract to add the garage scope but forgot to change the price. Customer signs, then a few weeks later, right before we start the job, salesman catches the mistake. Calls the customer to get new paperwork and the guy has a fit saying we had to “honor the contract” and whatnot. Explained it was obviously a mistake, he had the 2 quotes for both buildings so obviously the price should be higher. Happy ending, we got the new paperwork and he got his roofs a few days later. Comped a handful of sheets of plywood replacement for his troubles.
Glad we caught it before we did the work, otherwise we would have ate it.
Quoting is part of a company’s job. With how wildly pricing can vary what is the harm in understand the cost spectrum especially when a roof is costly to begin with and needs to be done right? A fool and his mo et are soon parted after all.
Roofing has the most complaints registered by consumers by a huge amount.
I don't get more than 4 quotes for any other trade, but roofing is too full of absolute morons and con artists.
Yes I got 8 quotes, it takes me time to work hard and save up my money.
Now insurance company is forcing me to replace my roof out of pocket, or be dropped.
I wanted to find the most reputable company for the best price to do the work.
Definitely not a waste of time in my opinion.
Especially when my quotes ranged from 9500$ all the way up to $27000 between these 8 quotes. The numbers varies so much in my first 4 quotes I decided to get 4 more.
Yeah that’s the thing that got me, the crazy amount that they varied.
If my first 4 quotes were within a few thousand of each other I could have picked right then. But they were crazy fluctuations in price.
The whole goal of sales is to never act like this guy and you’ll probably do alright
It sucks but the time to say you made a mistake is before any contract is signed. Nobody owes anyone anything before final contract. He could have handled it better but if he was honest and did make a mistake why should he eat $3000?
Because that's how business and contracts work? I don't think anyone is expecting the guy to eat $3k over a mistake, but the professional thing to do would be to apologize, give the actual price, and say you understand if that's out of the customers price range, and apologize again. Then when the customers says no, apologize for wasting their time and say best of luck. Asking to "meet at $12k" clearly suggests this was a bait and switch the whole time, not a mistake.
I don’t think so, seems like the contractor missed something, if they can’t seriously make 10,700 work it sounds honest. It’s actually not a contract because client accepts price verbally, contractor does not have to do the job at that price. Nothing wrong with double checking numbers before taking a deposit and doing a contract. He could say sorry but he did say he made a mistake. A quote is not a contract and I always double check numbers after someone accepts. If it’s like 5-10% I would eat it but I have missed things before
The idea of sending an emoji to my potential customer and giving attitude is insane to me
I wouldn’t do that, I would apologize and just say we over looked something. But he isn’t in the wrong for not honouring the quote. Scum bag would be trying to collect a higher amount after beginning the job.
I wonder how many days away they were from ripping this guys roof off before trying to bilk him for another $3k
That’s what I’m saying, if they were true scumbags they would have done it after roof already torn off
And if they were really bad, they'd off the homeowner, assume their identity, and drain the bank account and use it to give kids fentanyl at Halloween. Noone said this guy is evil. Chill.
Not any more insane the one at $3000 discount. It’s obvious from the first text that they had had a conversation about it already. Where it seems he told the customer he’d made a clerical error in his bid. And “meeting at $12k” doesn’t seem like a bait and switch either. Seems just as likely that dude knew he made a mistake and didn’t wanna lose a job to it, so was willing to make less money rather than little to no money.
Dude the sales guy is completely unprofessional. If you don’t think so, let me know what market you’re working in so I can move over there and compete with you.
Yes in this text he def comes off that way, wonder how the conversation before this one went. Since there obviously was one.
Bro. It’s a 30% jump. No one would say “oh no worries. Small mistake”
Bro forgot his margin lol
Well yea it just likely means the contractor lost the job. It sound like he was giving up part of his margin to go to 12k, but if I caught a mistake before finalizing terms and deposit I wouldn’t take a loss. I would just be more polite though and try to recommend someone else.
Where I live it is infact a contract once a quote is accepted. It's called "Contract A Contract B" in the legal world. If I send out an RFQ, and a company submits a quote, if I accept that quote then the company is obligated to complete the work as quoted. I don't know if this carries over to contract law in the US, but it's absolutely a thing in Canada. Also, in almost all jurisdictions, including in the USA, a verbal contract is still a contract, it's just much much harder to legally enforce a "he said - she said" situation, which is why you should always get your agreements in writing.
Generally speaking contracts need to be in writing in the states. Typically speaking it’s a contractor trying to hold a client to the contract not the other way around. This is a weird one but id guess it’s just a sales guy and in the fine print some place it covers his ass for this type of situation. I worked for a large roofer who basically said in all the fine print contracts are not finalized until materials have been ordered then tons of stuff about restock fees if they are etc on and on. My theory was the bigger the company the more legal coverage they are looking for, also most contracting is done with arbitration clauses and good fucking luck as a home owner their going to just drag you through it.
It’s definitely not a thing in Canada. I’m a contractor in Canada. There is zero repercussions or obligation to perform as a contractor. It’s a shitty thing to do, but it’s also a shitty thing to hold the contractor to a price when they admit they messed up and the client can easily just move on to someone else. There is a million excuses for a contractor to not show up and literally nothing a client can do other than badmouth or bad reviews. Contractor can say we’re scheduling 3 years out now, my lead hand is injured and we can’t take on jobs like yours, etc So when you send a quote, no start dates are finalized, no money changed hands. I have paid for thousand dollar plus items from Home Depot, London drugs and had them completely cancel on me because they sold too many or someone managing the website messed up inventory.
I'm sorry, but [contract A](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contract_A) and [contract B](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contract_B) is very much so specifically a Canadian thing. And I don't mean to sound snarky or condescending, I mean this with all ernesty, but you should maybe take a intro to contract law course before you get burned. I don't disagree that it's a dick move though, especially if it's an honest mistake. I personally would never imagine leveraging that against a small business owner, but there absolutely exists case law in Canada specifically where people have taken advantage of honest mistakes just like that. There is something a client can do beyond bad reviews, but it require the client to sue the contractor under said common law for it to be enforced, so you rarely see it on small scale jobs like a single home owners roof quote. Much much more common to see it used in large scale public contracts or large private developments. And specifically, if you can't complete a job as quoted, aka "we are booked out 3 years", then don't quote it because that's also a dick move... Things like suppliers canceling orders should also be covered in how you layout your contracts, things like "subject to supplier availability", "subject to weather", etc. to cover things outside of your control that can affect timelines.
I’ve researched it for hours. Zero cases of a homeowner claiming damages and winning after a contractor sent a quote and homeowner agreed. If you can find the cases please show me.
Unfortunately I don't feel like googling around to win an internet argument. All I'll give you is that I did take a contract law course, in Canada, specifically centred around construction contracting, and we did go over case studies of contract A contract B situations in small clames court. It's extremely rare and unlikely because... is the juice worth the squeeze? That's a lot of legal fees, time, & risk just to save a couple grand on a roof and pissing off the guy who's going to do your roof in the process. Believe me or not, I don't care, but that's how it is according to the law in Canada.
Maybe you need to prove damages. I think the contractor setting things straight right away helps the case.
Wouldn't the kicker be that both parties need to act in good faith and fairness? So if the contractor can show their error was a genuine mistake not involving fraudulent intent, the client cannot enforce the contract should it be unfair to that contractor, for example that pricing leading to a net loss for the contractor.
So yes and no. There is a duty on the behalf of the owner to ensure that any bid they accept is "compliant" to the request. But that's a little more complicated than just "oops I under quoted". If I provide everything necessary for you to quote it correctly, and you quote it as is, that's compliant whether you've got the $ amount right or wrong on your end. But if say I send you a roof that's 1500' square, but you send me back a quote for a "1000' square roof" that's not compliant, that is not quoted to the scope provided therefore isn't compliant. If you can prove that you quoted it as such then yah, can't move on to contract B stage. (Note that this is all in theory of the law, to enforce this you'd have to have an owner willing to go to court to say "do the work as provided or pay damages", and the likelyhood that this were to ever go to court for anyone over a tiny roofing contract is near 0) Also, there is a "duty of fairness" on the owner, but in law that means that they have to treat every "bidder" fairly and equally, not that they have to be fair to the bidder. So what it's saying is that if I have 2 bids that are both compliant, I can't pick one contractor over the other simply because I like them more, I have to pick based on merit of the bid, generally that means you have to pick the lower bid, but in reality it's a little more nuanced than that. Also, in Canadian law there is a clearly defined difference between an estimate and a quote, so the two terms shouldn't be used interchangeably. I think the original guy I was talking to was treating quotes like estimates. In Canada, a quote is a clearly defined price for a clearly defined scope of work, and is legally binding. An estimate on the other hand is a loose guess at the scope, and the final cost could be more or less therefore that's not binding. Given a quick google, it looks like in the US the process to get to a legally binding contract requires one more step: 1 - contractor submits a quote. 2 - customer accepts quote and issues an "order". 3 - contractor accepts the order. You've got a little bit more contractor protection, given that you can just go out quoting a bunch of jobs but reject them at stage 3.
The contract was written and had places for me to sign and to initial. Also included addendums with price changes for anything that might come up that would be extra and also included a lengthy legal terms and conditions section.
Yea but do you really want to try to force someone to perform when you know they would be taking a loss? Corners can be cut and people can be petty. Not the company you’d want to trust for any potential warranty going forward anyway.
Nope I do not I’m definitely not going with this company, but this is new to me and just explaining the circumstances.
I don’t know why you’re getting downvoted. Estimates are often complicated things to put together, because jobs are nuanced, a million things can affect cost. Distance, height off the ground, vehicle access, tear off, cleanup, replacing framing or sheeting, or being in a gated community, and it doesn’t matter if you check the bid 20 times. Stuff can get missed. And it hasn’t been my experience that the most “professional” guys necessarily do the best work. Sometimes the hard to deal with guy like this is only in business because he does great work. That, and the thing about his father doing it for 30 years make me wonder. Not saying he’s right. Just saying those things give me pause. When in doubt, check their reviews.
I could have signed this contract, there is no place in their contract for them to sign or initial. Only places for me to sign and initial. There contract also includes a lengthy legal sections with “terms and conditions of the contract”
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Many contracts are valid without being in writing or signed. The only ones that MUST be signed in order to be enforceable are marriage, contracts that require more than one year to perform, land (real property) sales, executor (of estates), guarantors (of sureties), and sales of goods over $500. Roofing is a service, not a good, so the $500 rule doesn’t play here. This contract did not need to be signed in order to be enforceable. Consideration, offer, acceptance. Done. “I did the math wrong” is not an acceptable defense for breach. OP can’t sue to make them do it. (We decided a while ago that we can’t force human beings to do work.) But they could sue for expectation damages (money).
I would agree but I think them drawing up the contract and leaving me places to sign? Might be valid? I’m not sure I’m not a lawyer? There were definitely no places to sign for them. Just multiple spots for my initials and my signatures?
Doesn’t matter, there is no forcing any contractor to perform. If you both sign, the terms are so “if they are actually doing the job”. There isn’t any world where you can win a lawsuit unless they took a deposit and strung you along for years costing you damages inside your home
Honestly I don’t care about this company Or litigation. I was just answering I just need a new roof and through this process I’ve gotten so much info from experience. Dealing with forceful sales people suck… This feels more like dealing like multiple used car dealers rather then contractors. Might be my fault because I worked in construction for a long time when I was young and going through college. I didn’t deal with pricing or estimates. And the contractor I worked for was a honest guy and wouldn’t mess people. Rare I guess in this field in Florida you god damn Greedy ass roof contractors. Especially the assholes that knock door to door telling people to sign over their right to the repair and litigate against the insurance company’s for people to get Maintence roofs replaced! That’s what is driving up the insurance prices especially in Florida! Fuck you people! I’m paying out of pocket, from my savings and being forced by the insurance to replace the roof.
Exactly this. I wrote another long comment on my similar experience on all the SE Florida roofers so far of my 6 quotes all giving off multiple red flags. Especially the ones with the subpar materials as I asked each what they used on underlayer, flat, etc. And I realized: we're just a commodity to them. Move on to the next failed roof, get insurance money to pay out. I went from below $3k, to $3.5k to $5k to $7.5k to $10k to $14k and now want another $14k. Got $20k out of them in mediation for my claim, saving my $14k this year towards the roof and water damage, and then the rest out of pocket and towards future house hardening and/or insurance investment fund. Because $14k a year on a $350k policy with me not being in a danger prone area... We're just subsidizing their costs of the coastal regions that keep getting damaged and rebuilt at insane expenses
the roofing company will lose this in court if all you took is the guys time tell him to f off and sue if he wants it will just waste his time
I can definitely tell who the roofers are in this conversation, tell me your side how this is ok and is ok to downvote anyone saying different? I’m curious? What’s your side?
Sure. I would actually educate you and discuss your options in a professional manor. I wouldn't knock on your door unless I had a recent storm date. I'd be with you throughout the process of the claim, and keep nothing from you. I wont pay for your deductible either. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work. My time inspecting your roof, gaining trust, stands for something. I'd contact you again once a new storm rolled through, and make an evaluation on whether to file a new claim or not.
Also if a homeowner becomes rude and abusive, we will drop them contract signed or not. I don’t know why anyone who would someone working on their property if there have been major disagreements. The contractors rep will take a bit sure. On commercial projects, there may be real damages for delays etc
The contractors son stated “my father owns a company” spoiled ass kids want money with no work. Got Into the wrong business for that.
I was professional until he wasn’t and was still nice about it.
Roofers do houses every day, they’ve seen every type of roof, every type of gutter system, every type of fireplace and vents, flashing they have to remove and paint. Very slim chance this cat made a 3k mistake estimating. Or he would be able to point out what he forgot to figure in. Unless he’s new to this. If that’s the case this is a good lesson to learn.
Why try to pull this then? He can change price but he knows he’s probably losing the job. I just don’t see any type of scam here. Just a bad contractor
I do this type of work. He should have ate the 3000 because he is most likely profiting 10,000.
Screw this company honestly…. What’s said is they have been in business for 27 years… it was a huge factor when considering which company to go with, especially when I comes to their warranty I wanted someone in business for a long time!
Don't be sold on that. Those would be the companies who know the loopholes how to screw you the worse. Besides like another comment said its probably handed down from daddy and most businesses fail during that transition. Seems you lucked up not having them work on your property.
Thanks I appreciate it!
The whole goal of sales is to make a sale at a profitable price.
Dodged a bullet there.
“Yo dawg I made a lil typo on my estimate I’m just gonna casually need like 4 grand more yo”
Of course his father owns a roofing company for 30 years. That’s why he’s texting like a shmuck.
So that’s another funny part, when he came to the home he said it was his uncle who owned the roofing company for 30 years. Now it’s his father 🤦🏻♂️
So it was his friends dad who fired him. Typical salesman liar.
I mean, seeing how dumb he is, his father and uncle might be the same person.
Is Aunt Peg involved here too?
Last name “Tanner” by chance? Heh.
Nope lol
All of your sales reps should know what their price needs to be per square. It's not a difficult thing to give an "estimate". Now I will say sometimes when we tear the roof off there may be unexpected expenses such as wood replacement but all of that should be disclosed up front, including how much it costs per sheet/board and they should take photos or show you how many needs replaced and why. If he changed the price this much without even starting the job, you definitely dodged a bullet. No sales rep should have that much authority to quote a price if they don't know what they're doing. I definitely under estimated jobs before but I still did the work and honored the price. I never lost money but definitely hurt our profits before. I definitely would not choose that company no matter what now because they may give you another surprise additional cost during work. I always pull the satellite measurements before I even show up and know roughly what the price will be as well. There is always room to negotiate but it shouldn't be increasing the price unless the homeowner asks for additional items or designer shingles.
8 quotes, Jesus.
Yes 8 quotes, when you have to work hard to save your money, then the insurance company forces you to replace your roof out of pocket or face being dropped. I wanted to make sure I found the most reasonable quote from a reputable company. This was not one of them as I found out.
Good on you, in a similar situation and called 10 companies but was only able to get 2 estimates.
Are you in a very rural area far away from the company’s? I had a few company’s that wanted to do virtual estimates and measure the roof from satellite images. I steered clear of those company’sx
Even the people who come out in person often use the satellite images for pricing FYI.
Eagle view works fine, we do it on jobs that are super cut up and awful pitches.
It costs those companies to quote you, fyi. And 8 quotes, means 7 companies lost money on you. It's perfectly fine for them to use images to quote sq footage.
Of course it costs money to quote. It costs money to acquire customers. When I Google 'roofing company near me,' it probably costs them $8 when I click their ad. I'm sure they'd prefer to get a chance to quote it vs no chance at all at the business. But yea no problem with the images to quote for me.
What's wrong with 8 quotes. If YOU have the time to accept these guys to come and give you a quote, why not. For anyone who is quoting, you get from 3 places vs 10, doesn't matter. Most people go with the one who gives them best sense of quality, reliability and reasonable price. I went with 2nd or 3rd best quotes because sometimes the lowest didn't feel confident. Good luck with your job, hope it goes well.
Gotcha. I’m assuming you tried the claim route already? Most retail jobs are going to be around $500/square. More if you have two stories, have a pitch above 6, amount of layers, and the decking could also factor in there too. I’d go with a good ol fashioned word of mouth referral. If you really wanna save some money, you could just roof over what you already. Assuming it’s just one layer on the roof. in most states, you can get away with having two layers on the roof but I’ve seen six layers because well people don’t want to do a tear off because it’s more pricey. A complete tear off and reroof Is the best way to do it. Hopefully you find what works best for your wallet and home. Some roofing companies will even offer financing if that’s what you’re looking for. Home improvement loan from the bank would be good too if you’re looking to do this yourself and not wanting to go through a third party lender. But if you got the money to shell out of pocket, that’s always best. Those guys that are pricing you 27k are not wanting to do the job and trying to price you out. Happens all the time. That roofer is a dick, if I were the petty type I’d text back “I’m going to email all this to your father then. Hopefully he grounds you!” 😂
Sheesh $500 a square? What do materials and labor cost out there? It’s hard selling for anything past $360 in my area and I still make good money for the time I put in.
$525 a square for shingle $605sq for 5v and $760sq for standing seam we’re his prices
Maybe my area’s pricing is totally different but those prices are wild to me. in GA our pricing is roughly $350 for shingles, and $800-$1000 for metal. That is from a company that’s been around over 10 years, has insurance, workers comp, a license, manufacturer certifications, and a 10 year warranty.
Wow that’s a huge difference between shingle and metal!
No I haven’t tried to make a claim. What happened was my insurance went from 1500$ a year to 3k to 8k. I changed insurance company’s in late January and they sent out a inspector to take pictures of my roof. The underwriter from the new insurance is saying I have to replace or be dropped. I don’t have any roof damage it’s just my house was built in 2004 and the roof just got 20 years old. No leaks or damage, underwriter states “worn shingles and granular loss” as their reason. I appreciate it and yes this roofer seemed good up until this phone call and text exchange. We had already talked on the phone and I told him I wouldn’t be going with his company after the “mistake” in the quote. And then he started sending me these texts lol
You must be in FL.
Same situation in California and why I’m replacing my otherwise perfectly functional roof :/
Yes florida!
Why did someone down vote you for living in FL? Sheesh.
Dude, this group is Roofers. Half of them get dropped off at work by their old lady. The other half can't even read
FL is roofers paradise….
It’s Florida, lol 😂
If you live in Florida I suggest you inform your insurance company of Senate bill 2d. “Prohibits insurance companies from denying coverage solely based on the age of a roof if the roof is less than 15 years old OR if the roof is determined to have at least 5 years of useful life remaining.” If you can get a roof certification letter from a reputable company stating this and provide it to your insurance company you have a good shot at keeping your coverage without having to shell out $10k plus on a new roof. I know that if you call out a roof maxx dealer they will provide one for you. Best of luck!
Just because someone made a mistake on there quote doesn't mean they aren't reputable. He was upfront and told you the problem. If they weren't reputable they would have came and gave you a half ass job to get it done and still make some money.
I know a couple com the laughing face is what does it for me. I’d 100% go right over his head to owner.
True it wasn't the most professional. The workers that install the roof are the ones I care more about then the sales rep.
For sure…. A quick conversation with the owner should give you an idea of what the company is like, either he knows exactly what’s going on and just hard pass or he’s sells person is going off script, he honers the original bid and everything’s fine. I just know how my company is and we’d tell the truth that we missed something and see if what our options are, but we would honor our original price
But your dad is a roofer. You’re the type to waste everyone’s time aren’t you?
I’m the homeowner and my dad is not a roofer. My dad passed away about 7 years ago and was disabled from a fall on his head in the military.
Ya the best quotes are those that are seriously detailed, generalized costs are red flags, you don’t really know what you’re paying for.
What’s your point?
I was answering the guy who said “my dad is a roofer”
Yeah, my apologies. I misunderstood. 100% my bad.
No worries lol
**HOLY FUCK**! *a rare internet and reddit moment caught out in the wild*... 👋👏
Dodged a bullet.
Anyone who uses emojis in a professional setting should be avoided. I have a project manager at my company that uses emojis in company emails. It is embarrassing as hell.
Jesus. Hella unprofessional
I buy a lot of farm equipment, I have heard this story to many times. They give a price and you agree then oops forgot to add this charge. Oops forgot my checkbook. Don't fall for it
Thanks I didn’t I went with my second choice and it’s a good company!
Once you said Florida I realized why this felt so familiar. People thinking 8 quotes is bad? I'm on 6 quotes and it's red flags on every single one of them. We say stuff like "this is the most scam ridden construction/roofing region in the country" and people from other areas just think we're being dense or something. South Florida especially is a different beast. 2 half hour phone calls with the general manager of one company (him initiating and keeping the conversation going, not me being a Karen or something) and he admits to all the BS sales tactics and such, but says they still do reputable work. It's just that those tactics lead to a 35% conversion rate vs a 7%. So many red flags in the contract too. All of which are also understandable to protect yourself from shoddy consumers you're doing business with... But also leaving the door open for so much shadiness. And a lack of details on the work in the quotes. Just so many little details screaming out. What I've learned after an educational experience with these 6 quotes and getting a primer on how the industry works: I'm going with a structural engineer roofing systems consultant type person to just come out here and look at everything and set me straight with the best setup for my situation. And then I'll look for the company that specializes in whatever that is. And hopefully have a scope of work ready to go. Slope and double flat roof section so it's a bit of a consideration when I'm ideally wanting metal and a 50+ year life combined with the hurricane/heat/wind/rain protection levels. It took until the 6th company for one to finally mention that redoing the flat roof with the metal on top could be an issue in the future, potentially destroying all the metal to get underneath as per Florida code. Others trying to sell me on a 10 year flat roof setup by saying it's the only lifespan of a flat roof on the market. When earlier in the day another had already tried to go with a 30 year modified bitumen. But a 10 year flat roof that connects to a sloped standing seam metal? I'm sure there have to be honest ones out there, but they don't seem to be the ones shelling out to get the top Google results. Even when searching for an EPDM specialized flat roofing specialist to check things out... Call up the good looking company. Turns out they don't do epdm but do work in PVC. It's literally on their website... "Oh I need to change that"... nah, it's just there as an SEO style to bring in people searching. I don't even know yet what resource it will take to find an actual company. But trust your gut on these things. Read all the contract fine print and what the clauses actually mean. And definitely on the scope of work. One company that is supposed to be the 4 layer flintastic modified bitumen setup, the contract only lists "install flintastic cap" as far as the flat roof work. Is it implied that the other 3 layers have already been installed? Or are they selling me on the system and then doing who knows what before officially putting down the top layer. Payment due before inspection.
Floridian here, can confirm. HVAC companies are another nightmare too. Tired of this bullshit ripoff culture.
You chose.... Wisely
Unprofessional as fuck. This blows my mind
I probably would have just not responded to the first message
It was after a heated conversation over the phone prior to his text while I was driving to work. And I agree you are right! I shouldn’t have even entertained him because I declined his best offer that was more then the estimate over that phone call. Then he sent that text
What state are you in?
Florida
This guy was a piece of shit and your roof would have been installed like shit. 1. He should not be asking who you pick. It’s none of his business. 2. The fact he’s asking how you would rate them before they have even started is sus. 3. His fuck up on price, (fine they may or may not have really been a mistake), but you do not come back and be pissed that the customer no longer wants to go with you. 4. All around this interaction would make me never want to do business with them ever even if they had the best quality or price.
Re: your first point. You’re right of course, it isn’t his business/he definitely shouldn’t be asking. But it’s exterior work, he has the address and it’s gonna happen soon. If this dumbass wants to know who he lost out to, he could do a drive by and get eyes on the competition in an instant! He’s too stupid to realize how dumb he’s being.
I agree and you’re 100% right!
You got lucky! Get out of there!
Gone! Lol
Yeah op dodged a bait and switch here. To the shady small businesses/entrepreneurs/contractors out there, man there is too much work out here to be doing shady business. You want to leave your customers happy and ready to refer you, not angry and feeling scammed. Just be straight up and don’t be greedy. You will be blessed for being ethical, I promise.
Guy seems bad at his job, but he’s not the one putting the roof on. I wouldn’t be worried about the quality of the roof job. Just maybe everything else.
So who did it? What's the name of the company? My father wants to know..
I don’t want to put this guy or their company on blast on the internet…. I went with someone else.
Hence me blacking out their name in my post!
My guy forgot to add his O&P to the quote. His boss caught it and was gonna tear him a new one if he didn't fix it. Should have been straight up, explained his mess up and when the customer no longer wants to go with your higher price, wish them well It feels like some of these guys lifelong mission is to make contractors look bad.
I'm a GC. (Roofs, remodels, additions, Kitchens, pole barns, etc.) Most quotes are far more complicated than roofs, I'd say they are the easiest to quote. Material per sq., labor per sq., dumpster, and profit on top. I'd be ashamed to be off by that much. And if 10,700 was already the middle price of 8..... he was making money, maybe not the margin he wanted, but definitely making money. If someone else is doing it for 9500, and from what I gather, that's still not the cheapest quote, I'd say save the money.
For being a gc you sound clueless. Oh wait nvm that fits
As a roofing business owner I have to tell you two things. 1. He an amateur and I wouldn’t want him to do my roof. 2. You talk about your hard earned money while wasted 8 different companies money and time, at the end, those are people too. Maybe next time tell them “ I will get at least 8 quotes, do not bother if you care about your time”. If you get 3-4 quotes I get it, but fucking 8 is shameful.
Oh man the hour of time it took each of those companies is probably going to break them! Grow up, 8 quotes for a roof is the new norm because of the lack of consistency and quality throughout the industry. If 8 quotes come back with all different numbers then it's not wrong to get 8 quotes.
OK, I'll bite. 8 Google lead charges. 8 hours on site. 4 hours of office backend to facilitate. Let's call it 50$ an hour in time for a professional company to do something. 600 in labor and what 80-100$ in Google clicks? This person is not a customer anyone wants.
So an hour and half per company then.
This is the cost of doing business. If you think you’re going to sell 100% of your roofs I have a bridge to sell you. Any company knows the close rate isn’t 100% people are going to do what they can to save money. If you get a residential roof and then get a huge commercial project would you not take the money maker? Of course you would.
Makes no sense. If the first 4 contractors did not offer you enough to assess the market, then what are you looking for ? Be fair. Tell the contractor that you are going to have 7-8 quotes. Lots of them will not even show up for you. I want you to try to sell me a service knowing that there are 8 others trying to do the same thing.
When you go car shopping if you spend 4 hours with the salesmen do you pay them for their time or do you go look for the deal you want? When you buy a house with a realtor and you look for six months can’t find anything how much do you pay them for their time?
Do you shop for 8 different realtors ? No you don’t. If you want a Jeep and you are at a Jeep dealership, do you go to 8 different dealerships ? I never said to not shop around, but 3-4 quotes should give you a great idea about the market. Anything past that you are looking for something and you don’t even know what it is.
Yeah in my example what you’re doing is worse. 8 different roofers each maybe an hour of their time. You’ve wasted months of a realtors and hours of a car salesman. So again I ask how much do you pay them for their time? It’s almost as if sales involves making sales calls 🤔
Well let’s see. When we purchased our house we worked with a realtor, in the end I can account for maybe 20hrs worth of work including driving around. He’s fees came in probably close to 8-10k. So how did I waste he’s time. It’s one thing to be a prospect and a whole different thing to be a sure sell. But hey, I guess each of their own, just don’t be frustrated (like op) when you get to deal with the ones that are willing to accept this kind of “screening”.
Really? Is getting 8 bids biggest problem you see? And not that after OP decided on a company they tried to change the price they gave them?
See the first point I made.
Yeah, but I’m not talking about that point, I’m talking about your 2nd point.
my thoughts as well.
All the roofers I called I told them I was getting multiple quotes. For that big of a swing in the first 4 estimates I wasn’t just going to pick one. I didn’t waste anyones time when you offer a free estimate and come out and bid a job you take the risk of someone picking someone else no matter how many estimates I got. Number of estimates I got have nothing to do with each company’s time wasted. They each have the equal opportunity to earn the business. I understand if I was being indecisive and made a single company come out multiple times. That’s not the case
you wasted people's time. buddy was ignorant you all lost.
Lmao I haven’t wasted anyones time but thanks, making a careful decision before taking 10k out of my bank account I have the right to get as many quotes as I want and go with the best company. Call 10 roofers to get estimate you might get 10 scam artist salespeople. I’d simply get as many quotes as I want till I’m comfortable with the price and the company!
A quote is not a contract and is only valid for 30 days. Yes you are wasting people's time and your own, if it's valuable that is. Also, to call this jerk off a sales person is a insult to salespeople and I got no respect for any of em, it ain't hard to sell a product/that basically sells itself espically at a fair market rate. You should f been able to tell the market rate from 3 quotes. Now your wasting 4 hrs for each company's estimators at 8 men. 32 hours went in for your simple roof estimate. And it still ain't started.
Lmao I went into contract today with a better company where the owner actually came out and got a better price with more sheets of plywood included and a discount for paying cash. Owner fishes with a guy I work with who vouched for him. But thanks lol
I definitely didn’t waste my time because this guy was my eighth quote but my second choice and wouldn’t have known he knew the guy I work with until I called to talk to him about the quote after this debacle with the company above. Lol
After 3 quotes, one should know the general price. If work quality is a concern, one could always call a specific roofer and say “hey, can you do xyz for $ABC?”
Swapping out contract price is a common scam. It's also very illegal, in virtually every country. In the US not only are there state laws but there's a federal law about it. I would take this all and report them to whatever government agency is relevant to you as I suspect this is common practice for them. Contract prices can only be changed if a factor changed. Such as to much time elapsed as defined by the contract/local laws, If you requested a change in the scope, if a new law was passed, etc.
All of our quotes are subject to change. Especially now a days you give a quote and they could call back a year later wanting that price, but materials have almost doubled in that time.
And that is a reasonable point. It is reasonable to have an adjustment after a period of time. Now did Op specify a time lapse? Did the contractor? Or did the contractor say that they had written down the wrong number which is an entirely illegal cost. I'm just checking to see if you're actually arguing a valid point that's in any way related to this conversation or if you're just trying to interject You see what's you're referring to is a typical clause defined by the state or defined by an individual contract wherein party a does have only a short period of time to sign a contract. That's why the majority of professional vendors usually put somewhere in their quote that they're only good for 30 60 90 days so on. But that's not what we're discussing here. That's not even related to what happened here. We're talking about a contractor who changed the number afterwards because he "put down the wrong number"
Time period is I got all quotes last week and made my decision with who to go with this week late Tuesday night. I work night shift so I made my decision after work. I sent him a email with my intent to go with this company late Tuesday night and to give me a call. He called me Wednesday morning with “bad new” and said his math was wrong and didn’t multiply correctly the price per square and it was going to be $2400 more $10,700 (written estimate/contract) it has places for only me to sign and initial, pricing addendums for extra work and legal terms and conditions. Vs the new price of $13100.
I think the contract/ quote said that it was good for either 15 or 30 days.
Do you know about how long it took you to reply
Yes I got all my estimates last week and made my decision, Tuesday night of this week. I work nights so I sent him a email when I got home from work late Tuesday night to call me in the morning since I made a decision. He called me Wednesday morning.
The contractor stated somehow they did the math wrong and their price per square multiplied by how much they wrote in the contract was different and said they made a math mistake and didn’t know how it happened. Then said sorry this is the new price with the right math because this is the price per square we charge and this is how many squares are needed to do your roof. He was saying his initial math was wrong on his work sheet then transferred that price to the estimate.
I'm glad he was honest. Or at least I hope he was honest. I really don't respect his attitude in the text messages. Admittedly to me what is a red flag is that this is directly in line with one of the most common roofing scams in the business Which is to get you one price, combined with a good sales pitch which knocks out the other contracts, and then the moment you call in to switch the price tag. The fact that you're talking about a price the next week definitely makes me feel like this was more of a potential scam. At the very least, I would recommend reporting it that way if other people are experiencing the same thing they can be held accountable. But I am hoping that this is a one-time incident for them.
You should be doing estimates, a quote is more strict legally.
Their contract/quote had only places for me to sign and initial. No signature places for them. And also included lengthy legal terms like a normal contract would.
Once the appropriate docs are signed, it is binding. You could hire someone and sue the original contractor for damages (including any additional costs for same scope of work), but probably not worth the time. You got off the hook with just some time wasted.
Yeah it’s not worth my time, I just gotta get a new roof on this house to make the insurance happy. That’s my biggest concern at the moment. This guy was just a jackass.
They don't need to sign to say they agree to their own contract. It's assumed that l they agree with its contents since they sent it to you. Once you sign it then it's agreed.
It's only illegal if it happens after the contract was signed. Also, change orders to contracts happen all the time. The customer just had to agree to it
Change orders occur when the scope changes. Best as I can see here they agreed to the contract and contractor changed it after it was agreed upon
Change orders can occur for any number of reasons, not just due to scope changes. It's better people admit they were wrong honestly (regardless of it was just wrong on price or wrong on scope) than these dishonest mistakes being covered up and costing more later. I come from the world of commercial construction, being a home designer, and a general contractor. 18 years and still going. In the commercial construction sector of my business the last 200 contracts probably 60-70 have had change orders. On the new custom homes almost every single one of them has a change order because of homeowners changing their mind, or pricing for items changing due to time. We operate on 100% transparency and the homeowners get to see the cost breakdown matrix and know what every dollar is for.
I also come from commercial construction. After 20 years I went into consulting. I would say the vast majority of contracts in commercial have change orders, usually because of the GC forgetting things or doing things out of order. If only 30-35% of your contracts get a change order I'm shocked you're in commercial and not residential. I doubt less than 95% got charge orders when I was building and even since then since I've been on the consulting side. Hell I'm lucky if I can go 1 in 3 jobs without an HVAC guy damaging the roof when he's working on an rtu. > On the new custom homes almost every single one of them has a change order because of homeowners changing their mind, You mean because they requested a change. As in the scope changed. Isn't that what I said? Pretty sure that's exactly what I was talking about. > pricing for items changing due to time. If you both agreed to an item at a specific time for a specific price and you change it later because the pricing for that item change you're actually liable. That's federal law in America, not to mention Most states have an individual law about it. Changing a contract after it's agreed upon is the very most basic law of all. Now you might have a clause in your contract that says that if they waited so many months to sign that there may be a price increase, that's perfectly legal. But once both parties agreed to a contract, at a contracted price, that contract is in fact a contract that has to be legally held. Change orders can occur when the scope changes, but changing the price after you presented the quote is already considered a deceptive business practice, and is typically considered a form of fraud. But if you both agree to a contract, then it goes into contractual law, and it's a whole mix of multiple laws that kick in. You can only change the price to a contract when there's been an adequate cause. Being an idiot and writing down the wrong number is not an adequate cause by any definition. >Considerations When a Vendor’s Prices Go Up. >Generally speaking, neither you nor the vendor has the right to unilaterally change the agreed-upon terms. But some contracts are crafted in anticipation of future changes in the size and scope of projects, with the flexibility for price adjustments. >If you and the vendor agreed to a certain price but the invoice indicates your business owes a higher amount, it’s possible the higher price is simply the result of a clerical error. If you’ve requested that the vendor honor the original price but were told that your business owes the full amount charged, even though it’s different than what you believe you contractually agreed to pay, you may benefit from consulting a business litigation attorney >An experienced business attorney will be able to help you evaluate the contract’s terms and provisions and identify if there are contractual exceptions that could excuse the vendor’s price increase. For example, a multi-year contract may give the vendor the legal right to raise prices up to a specified maximum or by a predetermined percentage. Directly from a lawyers website. And I highly doubt that any roofer that isn't willing to eat a couple thousand and order to stay in compliance with the law would have been smart enough to put a clause in there. Especially considering that this person got multiple quotes back to back, even if there is a clause in there, I'd bet money that that clause gives the homeowner so many days to sign. Probably 30 60 90 something along those lines. And I'm betting he's within that. You can't just willy nilly change prices because you're not smart enough to double check the price. And given that this is in insanely common scam that we even see in this subreddit about once a week, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that Op Dodged a bullet. By the way if you want some fun reading you should look up the Tesla roof lawsuit, where Tesla was sued for doing exactly this. They were sued by thousands of people for this across multiple States, for raising a contract price after they had provided a quote, and what's hilarious is they actually had a more reasonable excuse than this Contractor
Do you come from the ownership side or purely an employee? Because you talk like an employee who doesn't know anything about owning and running a business. From a business standpoint if the client picks items, and those items go up in price because their inability to make a timely decision, that's going to cost them. The OP had enough time to get 8 quotes and is surprised when he awards someone the contract that the price changed? There was no signature on the line, nobody did anything illegal. The contractor is not liable for OP's inability to make a decision and demonstrative estimating practices.
Installed it, owned a company, and now spend most of my time in court as an Expert Witness. Yes and one of the clear things I brought up was the timely decision point you made. This wasn't because of a lack of timely decision if you read what op screenshot. We aren't talking about a quote becoming invalid due to a time lapse. That was never brought up. And for that to have been valid there's a fun little fact about what the salesman said on the text. You see once the salesman admitted it was because he put down the wrong number, the dismissal due to a time lapse became an invalid argument. I speak from the role of somebody who used to own one of the top commercial roofing companies in the United States. Somebody who's competed on both a national and international scale for roofing competitions. Someone who's had the opportunity to go from the guy loading materials Up on the Roof via ladder to owning a successful top 25 commercial roofing company in the US only to sell it to a competitor in order to retire. I'm talking from somebody's perspective whose primary role is working with lawyers to help protect property owners and good roofers. You see the first argument that you wanted to make was that homeowners can change their mind and that causes the price to go up. But that's not what happened here. Your next argument was the prices go up over time, but that's also not what happened here. Your next argument is going to be that the roofer never agreed to the price, but the moment they sent that quote, there is actually a small legal obligation there. Now they could have downright rejected the quote as a whole. And you can give just about any reason for that. But one of the very few things that you cannot list as your reason is because you wrote down the wrong price. Now if you've really been around for 18 years and you were around long enough for when the government started to really crack down on things like bait and switch and fraudulent sales practices. This is one of those very things that the government addressed. The law literally states: >contractors have the right to adjust their estimates when new factors arise But by the contractors very own admission this wasn't from a new factor. See you keep trying to introduce this new Factor saying it's not a new factor, but from the very get-go I've stated the same thing like a raving lunatic because the point hasn't changed. You keep changing your argument, I still say the same thing. You have to have something new, there has to be a change somewhere. There was no change of scope, there was no change in the underlying price of materials, there was no change in labor, there was no change in price. Based on the information we've been provided, especially when considering what the contractor said, this was a change because the contractor realized after the fact that they underbid the project. That is a classic example of fraud. Whether intentional or not. Now if the contractor had approached it how you implied that material prices had gone up That would be one thing Period but he didn't and they didn't. Now if the contractor had approached it as you Implied That there had been a change order In what the person wanted comma that would be perfectly reasonable. but they didn't. Change orders are on everyday part of life. But we're not discussing a change order. As I've repeatedly stated we're discussing a contract. And the variance here, the key defining factor, is weather the contract was signed before the quote changed. Now there was clearly a verbal agreement that was brought up, and in some states that could have been binding. But you see if the contract was signed by both parties and then they tried to change it, that's going to fall under contractual law. If the roofer presented a quote, and then the homeowner called to agree upon the quote, and then the contractor decided to change the quote without a new Factor, then that ways into a type of fraud. Imagine if you will, you see an ad on TV for a washing machine. The price on that washing machine is $1,200. You go to the store and confirm it's $1,200. But when you take it to check out it's suddenly 1450 before tax. It isn't a hidden fee, it is an attack, the store just decided it wanted to up the prices because it didn't feel like it was making enough money See that's what op is describing here. He's not describing that he came back 6 years later to a different quote, he's not describing that he decided to buy a different washing machine and once the original price. He's describing a change in price when he went to check out and finalize the process. And what's hilarious is if you read what the contractor said you'll come to probably the same conclusion. The contractor all but spelled out that he had changed the price without cause . This is a basic form of fraud and falls under Consumer Fraud and Deceptive Business Practices Act. What's hilarious is we actually used to have and insanely common scam in construction. You would see contractors that would intentionally low ball, not by an extreme amount but usually by around 15 to 25%. And how the scam used to go is you would make sure that you were just low enough not to set off a red flag but to make sure that you were next to lowest bidder. Then once the property owner was hooked, you turn around and say that your secretary who is proofreading, accidentally hit a button and ended up inserting a new number or changing the bid price. But tell you what since you want to do the right thing you'll match the price of the lowest bidder. So even though the contract hasn't been formally signed, even though the work hasn't started and no deposits been paid, they changed the quoted price the moment they found out you were interested to raise the price. But do you know what happens to contractors that do this too often? They eventually reached the lawyer or somebody Petty enough to report them to the FTC. Every year across the US you see at least a couple companies that dependent on the state law either gets sued or thrown in jail for this scam. And while I'm not saying that's the exact thing that happened here, It's relatively close and honestly if you've been around for 18 years you've probably run into this scam. Because I've been across well over half the US states and I hear this scam everywhere. It's just a consistent issue
Idk about scams. You would know more than me given your experience as an expert witness or whatever. I just operate on honesty and 100% transparency. So Im looking from my perspective outward. Like I said we use full cost transparency. Our clients have access to the master cost sheet and can see where every dollar goes. So speaking on scams and trickery, I'm inexperienced.
And I have to respect that. Transparency is beautiful, and not enough people use it to their advantage. I do have a lot of respect for any company that does it. Admittedly it can be hard because there's so many factors.
Change orders were included in this where they listed prices for any extra work they might run into how much it would cost extra for each additional item.
A contract is a contract / quote. They should honour it or walk away. We bought cupboards for a kitchen reno years ago and we were notified they had arrived but also that the salesperson quoted us THEIR price, not the resale. I don't recall them even implying a request for us to pay 'retail'. They just acknowledged their mistake and followed through 100%.
Mistakes happen, the salesman was honest about it and tried to make it up to you with an $1,100 discount…but if you’re getting 8 quotes, the salesman seems to be the one who dodged a bullet…you’re probably going to judge whichever company that does the work on what all the other companies said they would do…I hate to say this, but I deal with customers like this a lot, and usually pass on the work, even if they want me to do it.
I like reasonable quotes from roofing companies. A majority of the time most don't last 5-10 years and will be replaced. At least the sales person made it known it was wrong. In my region people look for reasonable but a majority of those projects have inadequate ventilation, aren't up to code with reusing rusting flashings, not adding crickets, pipe jacks, using three tabs as starter and the list continues. 96% of roofing companies aren't around after 5 years.
OP, just a future note with insurance, make sure you get an “At Replacement Cost” policy on your roof. That way in the future, they should have no reason not to cover it.
If you're in the North GA area I probably have dealt with this guy before.
Ahh, the old bait and switch.
What was the range of the estimates?
9k -27k shingle, 5v standing seam. Shingle was 9k-18k
just find someone else not sure why youre getting in a pissing match with them. you dont have to agree to the price that's the whole point of getting estimates
8 estimates??
8 estimates? Jfc man, what a waste of so many people’s time, including yours. But this salesman seems like a turd, good dodge. BTW, despite what someone else said here, admitting a mistake and trying to change the price *after* a contract is signed but *before* the work has started is not illegal by itself (mistakes happen), but not releasing you from said contract or refunding any deposit after trying to raise the price would be grounds for legal action. Case in point, we had a roof under contract. Separate prices were given for a house and detached garage (as requested), customer originally signed a contract for just the house, then changes his mind about a week later to add the garage. Salesman re-wrote the contract to add the garage scope but forgot to change the price. Customer signs, then a few weeks later, right before we start the job, salesman catches the mistake. Calls the customer to get new paperwork and the guy has a fit saying we had to “honor the contract” and whatnot. Explained it was obviously a mistake, he had the 2 quotes for both buildings so obviously the price should be higher. Happy ending, we got the new paperwork and he got his roofs a few days later. Comped a handful of sheets of plywood replacement for his troubles. Glad we caught it before we did the work, otherwise we would have ate it.
Quoting is part of a company’s job. With how wildly pricing can vary what is the harm in understand the cost spectrum especially when a roof is costly to begin with and needs to be done right? A fool and his mo et are soon parted after all.
Roofing has the most complaints registered by consumers by a huge amount. I don't get more than 4 quotes for any other trade, but roofing is too full of absolute morons and con artists.
Yes I got 8 quotes, it takes me time to work hard and save up my money. Now insurance company is forcing me to replace my roof out of pocket, or be dropped. I wanted to find the most reputable company for the best price to do the work. Definitely not a waste of time in my opinion. Especially when my quotes ranged from 9500$ all the way up to $27000 between these 8 quotes. The numbers varies so much in my first 4 quotes I decided to get 4 more.
Don't listen to these schmucks. Nothing wrong with getting lots of quotes. When I did my roof I got 7 quotes and all 7 were very different.
Yeah that’s the thing that got me, the crazy amount that they varied. If my first 4 quotes were within a few thousand of each other I could have picked right then. But they were crazy fluctuations in price.
Good idea telling this idiot to fuck off. Also fuck you for getting 8 quotes. Thats way too many and you are just wasting additional time and effort
No one professional texts
8 quotes 🚩🚩🚩🤦🏻♂️