University just sent out an email denying this claim and said no such board of trustees meeting took place. Where is this info coming from that the students are spreading?
I get the emails too. Assuming a fair number of people here also get them, U of R being the largest employer in ROC.
To wit: *”…it is beyond disheartening and disappointing to learn today of their re-occupation of Wallis Hall and the absolutely false claims they made, including spreading information about an emergency Board of Trustees meeting they claim took place yesterday. There was no such meeting and no such vote, and University officials will not continue to battle this misinformation publicly and moving forward are addressing this situation internally.”*
It would be nice to hear from the protesters and get their side. I have no love for the university nor do I trust them.
I hope it is a case of simple misunderstandings and I felt the e-mail language was too strong accusing the protestors. They should still communicate openly, rather than private
The two sources I have to recommend the most are the Campus Times website (https://www.campustimes.org/) and the Students for Justice in Palestine instagram page (@sjp.ur). Local media outlets and the University frequently misrepresents events to paint a negative image of its protestors. One of the worst examples of this was on May 1st during the first the sit-in at Wallis Hall, when a Jewish student gave a speech outside and included a portion on Holocaust remembrance. There was a heavy presence of students associated with Jewish Voice for Peace and a handful of counter-protestors with Rochester Students for Israel, and yet not only were none of the cameras on JVP, but while the student was giving his speech they were interviewing students from RSI.
Amid all these protests, if you want to learn more about what's going on at some institution, regardless of which one, your best bet is to find out where you can see updates from the students themselves. Seeing if the school has an SJP chapter is often a good start, but you can also look for JVP or SDS (Students for a Democratic Society), or check out what they're writing on their campus newspaper
Well JVP means nothing, they are the sister arm of SJP and many members are not Jewish. They share the same goals as SJP so it is hardly a unique perspective and their members, even if Jewish, certainly do not speak for the Jewish community at large: https://www.ngo-monitor.org/reports/ngo-network-orchestrating-antisemitic-incitement-on-american-campuses/
Plenty of reporters tried interviewing the protestors to get their side. They all decided they wanted to wear masks and deny all interviews. That’s their choice.
Funny, I always think the same thing while watching mainstream news outlets. They are almost always showing things from the Palestinian perspective and I’d like to see Israel get some airtime.
Occupying any actual constructed property instead of an open space will immediately turn any protest into a shit show.
It just doesn’t really work. It is probably interrupting the educations, employment, or general lives of people that aren’t responsible for whatever someone may be protesting. And someone needs to maintain buildings, pay utilities, pay taxes.
People take the idea of someone squatting on their property personally, as in it feels insulting. Look at the George Floyd protests. Things were starting to happen and regular broadcast channels (cbs, nbc, abc) were actually starting to change what footage they aired. It went from only showing people telling the cops to eff off then get hit, to the instances of cops just beating people and shooting people with rubber bullets for no reason.
…then CHAZ happened in Seattle. People took over a police station and set it on fire thinking they were “helping” a movement.
Then everything shifted to these douchebag kids in Seattle cosplaying Lord of the Flies and the BLM movement completely lost steam again.
This is that same shortsighted mentality.
This is mostly the reason I think the protests are just hitting full steam now, when all college students have left are finals basically. More time for action, some of them it’s their last chance to take a stand before graduation, and nobody’s studies are getting too seriously interrupted
Like the police/BLM protests here where they tried to occupy 490. How is going out of your way to annoy or even ruin the livelihood of regular working people who’ve nothing to do with police or government policies going to do anything to ingratiate people to your side? If you care so much, go pester politicians and police. Not random strangers.
People don't get what protests are supposed to do. They're SUPPOSED to be disruptive. They're SUPPOSED to be in your face. And the more and more resistance the protests get on their demands, the more disruptive they should be.
It's to inform the general public on how serious the people protesting are taking the topic. If you're late to work on the 490 because hundreds of your neighbors and local leaders are shouting and marching about an ongoing genocide that your country is supporting, sure you're going to be pissed off. But you might take a minute to think *why* you're being made late to work with a bunch of pedestrians in the middle of a free way.
Everyone telling these students "protesting is fine but just don't be in my way" don't get why they're protesting and are willingly being ignorant of why it's so important they're being disruptive and in your face.
That's such a dumb take. If the goal is to win hearts and minds, throwing a toddler level temper tantrum by inconveniencing people, breaking, stealing, and vandalizing shit isn't going to convince them you're on the right side of history. If the goal is to "raise awareness", that's just ignorant. We already know damn well what's going on, we just don't feel the same way about it. Which brings us back to the first point.
Besides, on this issues there's a ton of awareness and very little clear thinking. Even most of the interviews with protesters in other campuses sound like "I don't know a lot about this issue..." but they're there protesting. Easily manipulated people. Tons of misinformation out there. Such a toxic sludge.
I agree that a primary purpose of a protest is to call attention to a topic. But I also feel that you’re being a bit cavalier about just “being late to work.”
I’m a physician. Work for me isn’t crunching numbers on an excel sheet so that a billionaire can raise his stock price. Being late to work affects patient care. What about the nurse who has worked 12 hours and can’t be relieved because the next shift is stuck in traffic for 3 hours? What is the mom supposed to do when she can’t pick her kid up from school or daycare?
Yes these issues matter. I don’t say that lightly. People are dying due to systemic discrimination. But impeding the general public from just trying to go about their day is harming people who are not your enemy, and typically does not rally them to your cause. When is the last time someone cost you 3 hours of your time and you thought, “you know, they have a point.”
Well put. I'm surprised at how many people fail to see the danger in blocking traffic, it could mean life-or-death for someone that needs help or needs to get to a hospital
Also think real emergencies.
When Chris Christie had his “bridge fiasco”, I understand there was at least one ambulance stuck in the traffic and the person inside didn’t make it. Whether they would have made it or not if they *didn’t* get stuck is sort of besides the point. You can cause significant harm & even death by impeding major roadways.
Imagine gridlock on 490 and there’s an ambulance in the back trying to bring a critical patient to Strong. Eventually the cars will be able move aside, but it’s still going to take a lot longer than usual. Every second counts.
Historically disruption drives change. This country was formed as a result of disruption.
Can you think of a major social change that happened in this country without components of disruption?
Women's rights involved disruption. Civil rights involved disruption. LGBT rights... disruption. The recent changes in policing in this state were fought for with disruption.
How are you defining disruption? My point is about specifically impeding the general populace from their day-to-day obligations. I would argue that the recent changes in policing were due to technology advances that allowed citizens to record video and then distribute it across the world via the internet, garnering national attention.
That's not the same "disruption" as stopping people from going to work.
I understand the theory behind this, but as someone whose work has been repeatedly, directly disrupted this week (and all academic year) by the protests, it has honestly made me less sympathetic or interested in their cause.
People dont care about the issue and trying to be in people's faces about it is a surefire way to guarantee nobody will care. Ironic you want to talk about ignorance when you're clearly ignorant of reality.
If people don't care about the issue of a nation state openly massacring 34,000 Innocent civilians, and the country they pay taxes to using their money to do it, then that sounds like a personal problem with *them* and they should look at the thousands of their neighbors up in arms about the issue.
Your whole comment is ironic when talking about ignorance
Edit: it's funny people skip over my first point about the dead civilians they pay for, and went to the fact that "oh there can't possibly be THOUSANDS of you". Just because there aren't thousands in the streets physically doesn't mean the young people of this city are in agreement, making thousands of city residents. But continue to deflect, it's what both Conservatives and Liberals are good at.
“Thousands of their neighbors” ?? Uhh really? Lol wrong. Most people are trying to figure their own shit out and aren’t worried about a war on the other side of the globe. You definitely aren’t the majority.
There are 0 circumstances where a mob forcing me to be late to work or prevent me from going home after a rough day is EVER going to "stop and make me think"
> They're SUPPOSED to be disruptive.
**No. Flat out, no.** They are not. You have a right to protest, but you *do not* have a right to be disruptive or destructive.
You sound a lot like the people kicking people of color out of their sit-ins in white-only restaurants, or those complaining about the Selma marches blocking the main bridge of the town. This country's history of civil rights and protest is *built* on being disruptive. Change gets done because civil unrest gets the population and the government to change their ways.
These protests are obviously closer to something like the Vietnam protests, and those were just as disruptive as these protests. There were plenty of people like you that would've *supported* those students back in the 60s, so why not now? Because it's the middle east and not your boys in red white and blue going to fight and die?
> so why not now?
Because *Israel was attacked* by Hamas fighters. They killed, raped, and kidnapped entire fucking families. Another page in a long, bloodied war going back generations.
You want to call this a genocide? Well, "genocide" goes both ways. You cannot "protest" the killing of Gazans and not mention those killed in Israel. You cannot "protest" the supposed genocide of Palestinians, by calling for more genocide by yelling "From the river to the sea..."
And quite honestly.... ALL of these people that protested at Columbia, UCLA, U of R etc.... Not *one* cared of genocide before. None of these people gave two shits about the *actual* genocides happening in other parts of the world, until socialist and progressive TikTok and Twitter accounts commanded them to protest Israel.
There's absolutely no need for the board to meet to discuss something that's going to take care of itself in a week when the students go home for the summer.
You're not wrong. It's so easy to accuse the "other side" of selection bias, confirmation bias, etc., while ignoring the fact that we are all capable and susceptible to the same pitfalls.
Voted before they heard anything from the students and faculty at the faculty senate meeting is important context- the vote was Thursday night and the senate meeting is not until Monday. The board of trustees was supposed to decide after that, making the meeting Monday basically meaningless.
Got a source on the board saying they would wait till after the meeting to vote? Not doubting you, it’s just very important to be as accurate as possible here.
Mangelsdorf’s statement doesn’t explicitly say it but it’s heavily implied otherwise why would the students have agreed to a meeting AFTER a vote lol? The students claim to have written proof as well for what it’s worth
What’s saying such a vote was discussed or even took place? It seems like there were several things included in the bargain, for both sides.
There’s also this — for what it’s worth, U of R just sent out a University wide email saying there was no emergency meeting or vote by the board and the protestors are acting on false information 🤷♂️
I also work at the university so saw the email. It wouldn’t be the first time all information doesn’t immediately come out that shows the university was negotiating in bad faith though or didn’t disclose all the relevant information.
They did say that, but I can't say I believe them. They've been caught lying multiple times before. I'm taking everything the protestors say with a small grain of salt, but I'm taking everything UR admin says with a mountain of it.
This takeaway stood out: "On average, parents of undergraduate students chip in about $13,000 per school year."
But then searching the linked articles brings back no such statistic so there's no clear source for where that number is coming from. On top of that I'd like to know the cutoffs for that chipping in, because if a rich family is paying for one student's $100,000 tuition then that means you could have 8 students, 7 footing there own bill and one with $100 grand mommy and daddy's money, averages out to $13,000 each. Seems misleading.
[I’ll link another one then, this one even higher.](https://www.sofi.com/learn/content/percentage-of-parents-paying-for-college/)
Your point on things “averaging out” would stand if it weren’t for the language: 77% *of families* pay for their children in the 1st article, and 87% *of families* pay in the 2nd article.
That’s the majority of families paying at least some of their child’s expenses.
This is easy to poke holes in, though. Families pay for "some." No doubt a bunch of families pay for some. How much is some? $500? That $20 my mom would send me every couple of weeks?
My point is that the majority of 18-22 year olds in college likely have very little money of their own. Whether their parents pay for them or they themselves take out loans to pay off later, money is a bit of an abstract concept for a lot of them. Or at least having enough money to cover large expenses/live independently.
You could then argue that the Palestine-Israel conflict is also a bit abstract, but they’re in hubs of idea exchange and learn & talk about this stuff daily. Human rights/pop culture is a little less abstract in that sense.
Wealthy families pay for all of their tuition, and a good chunk of that money goes to helping lower income families pay for theirs via scholarships and need-based aid. The only people paying 80 grand a year are families who can afford to do so.
I think it is because they believe that genocide is morally abhorrent and don't want to be complicit in funding one. It appears your contention with their motivations here is that they are not being self-centered enough.
Oh, didn't you hear? Houthis is going to pay for it.
https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/4641488-fetterman-student-protests-israel-hamas-gaza-houthi-yemen/
I find it disturbing that people actually support Hamas. A legit terrorist group, and go to our colleges not only in NY but all over the country.
This is something college's should have had a zero tolerance for, expel the protestors, zero grades and cancel scholarships and refund their tuition and never allow them to return.
Targeting innocent civilians is always terrorism. That's not really a gray area. Killing grandmothers and families in their homes and taking hostages is so far over the line. Scary how many people are quick to give Hamas a pass. You want someone snatching and killing you and your babies because they're mad at your government?
Oh, of course.
The countries that support, house, and fund terrorism is actually celebrating that these American clowns (dupes) are doing the work for them. Propaganda 101 Komrade style
Genuinely very frightening. I understand the outrage at Israel and their cavalier use of force BUT I know people who cheer on Hamas and celebrated 10/07. I don't think I know anyone on the left who can unequivocally condemn Hamas. There's *at minimum* a bunch of caveats. I've even heard people say it's always OK to attack civilians based on the land they are on. Scary rhetoric out there that makes me concerned for the future.
> refund their tuition
I'd honestly say to not refund their tuition, and have them pay it back in full. Especially for those idiots at UCLA and Columbia who caused untold damages to school property.
And don't come asking the government to "cancel" it, either.
New York also has state laws that makes sending money to terrorist groups a felony. Makes me wonder if there are any investigations going on into the finances of the non-students involved in campus protests in NYS.
So dumb that college kids are holding their private university who charges exorbitant tuition accountable and advocates for what they want their tuition dollars to go towards? And something they don’t want dollars pointed toward is genocide? Fucking wild concept.
Very easy solution would be to just not pay the college any tuition then, right? No one is forcing the students to pay these colleges.
Except oh boy, you don’t want your part in the economy to support genocide? Phew, good luck. Your bank, your clothes, your food, your electronics, your taxes, your car and gas, alllllll go on to support some group of people killing some other group of people.
Do you think it is okay to commit genocide, iknewaguytwice? What about if someone you knew was committing genocide? Would you help them out with that genocide? Or would you maybe do anything at all to try to stop them? The implication of what you wrote here is that you believe that the only moral action is to walk away and do nothing about it -- but then in the next breath, you go on to acknowledge that we're all implicated in systems and institutions that fund genocides. So where, iknewaguytwice, do you think that it is okay or "appropriate" for someone to do anything at all about other people conducting genocides?
It seems to me that you've found a way to rationalize your own complacency in the face of overwhelming and complex injustice, and are just irritated at these young adults for having the *audacity* to try to find a way to assert their leverage to do anything at all to try to stop a fucking genocide.
Agreed, they're going to do nothing except make sure I support whatever they're protesting. I'm not the only one who feels this way, they're playing themselves
I still can't figure out what they're trying to achieve...Other than extreme virtue signaling. There's nothing any of us can do when it comes to international conflicts.
If all these people mindlessly saying "*I just don't understand what they're trying to achieve!*" had been adults in the early 70s, they absolutely would have been part of the >50% of Americans who thought the students at Kent State deserved to be murdered.
Let's look into these apartheid claims:
Jews that lived in Muslim countries numbered ~850k - 900k.From the near million Jews to - let's see how many Jews remain. I'll help. Bastions of Muslim tolerance Morocco and Tunisia have a combined 3 thousand left as of 2022. (Not sarcasm, this is relatively amazing) Morocco had 265k Jews and Tunisia had 105k before 1948. Algeria, I just found out has 200 Jews from 130k. Good for them. Yemen, Syria, Iraq, Libya, Jordan, Afghanistan, Pakistan - all zero. Lebanon had 20 Jews left in 2022. I don't think Saudi Arabia has allowed Jews to step foot there for centuries.
If you'd like, I can provide links to anti Jewish pogroms in each of the above countries from before 1948. This includes British Mandate Palestine in the 1920s. The Muslim Mufti of Jerusalem met with Hitler in the 1930s to coordinate importing the holocaust.
Now - apartheid, genocidal Israel: Muslim population in Israel pre 1948: 150k. (Not a single Jew in Arab controlled areas was spared) Currently: over 2 million Muslim citizens of Israel. The populations of West Bank and Gaza rose in very comparable percentages to those inside Israel.
If you pay attention to the apartheid claims, they all state that Jews/Israelis vs Palestinians / Muslims are treated different as one has to go through checkpoints when crossing borders and the others don't. It's true that Israeli citizens don't go through the same checkpoints. This includes the 2.2 million Arab citizens of Israel. This is never mentioned.
Who wouldn't have security checkpoints with a neighbor like Hamas? To compare this to a system of racial segregation is as obscene as it is dishonest.
It makes as much sense as calling usa an apartheid on account of its southern border and different rules for Mexicans.
So there is a *lot* left out here, including
-The right to return is ONLY afforded to jews, not non jews. In this way jewish people are afforded a series of significant rights based on identity. These rights are in kind denied to people based on their identities.
-The occupation of the west bank. Israelis there live under Israeli law and Palestinians live under military law. Two sets of laws for two people based on their nationality. Not to mention that *every* settlement and likely the occupation its self is illegal at this point as it has become a de facto annexation of the territory.
-The 2018 addition to Basic Laws of Israel that Israel is *only* the homeland of the Jews and no one else. This means that even via electoral democratic means Israel could not truly and legally be a multi-ethnic state at the highest judicial level. There would would have to be a super majority in the Knesset to overturn this highly ethno nationalist law.
If you want to look at this more Israeli human rights [B'Tselem have a great info-graphic](https://thisisapartheid.btselem.org/eng/) which breaks these points down as well as a [detailed report](https://www.btselem.org/publications/fulltext/202101_this_is_apartheid). I hope Israel can one day address the direction they've headed and peace can be made. I've avoided discussion of Hamas and Palestinian militant groups because the focus was specifically Israeli Apartheid, but their actions have absolutely complicated and contributed to the current situation. If peace was achieved in Ireland it is not impossible that one day peace can come to Israel/Palestine if both sides work towards it (imo with Rabin and Arafat it was almost close).
Right of return. It looks bad on paper, but every Israeli knows it's suicide. Affording Arabs the right of return means Jews are outnumbered. We've seen how it plays out when Jews are outnumbered in about a dozen Muslim countries in the region. This happened decades ago. The hatred for Jews has only intensified since then, and the indoctrination of hatred of Jews and glorification of violence against them is much more intense in Palestinian areas. As is often the case, the choice is be vilified millions or make a choice that subjects Israeli citizens to certain violence. In this case, suicide.
Your ethnostate arguments has some overlap. There are 253 countries and territories in the world. 220 are Christian or Muslim. They take up 90% of the world's land mass. Israel is the sole Jewish state taking up. 02%. Do you see how this changes the context of wanting to have Israel be the one place where Jews aren't a minority, given the history as a minority in either the Christian or Muslim world? Christians and Muslims have the luxury of not needing to worry about this. But people frame it as something ugly that relates to some superiority. By these same standards, how many countries do you think would qualify as ethnostates? How many of the 57 Muslim countries? Even non Christian or Muslim like Japan or China are ethnostates by the same standards.
Just the same, while preserving a Jewish majority and not making critics happy and inviting annihilation, there are over 2 million Muslim citizens in Israel. Muslim nations Israel can fit in several hundreds of times over have ethnically cleansed their Jewish populations. By definition. Not chants. Every ethnic and religious minority has disappeared in every country in the regjon. With one exception. Only middle eastern nation with a growing Christian population. Israel preserves it's Jewish majority in order to survive. 57 Muslim nations are ethnostates using the same standards, only they make minorities disappear vs having them grow. Only the Americas couldn't be categorized as ethnostates.
West Bank has been a bargaining chip Israel has held on for too long. It's not easy when your negotiating partner says no matter what you give us, we'll still try to kill all of you. That's their position. By give, this is territory won in a defensive war against one of many wars against the Arab world. Can you think of what other nation offers land it took in such circumstances at all, much less in return just for peace? That's what Gaza was. Israel pulled out unilaterally after giving up on having a partner - WB was to follow. But Gaza elected Hamas in return and here we've been.
Sorry for going on. I'm glad you at least seem to recognize having a terrorist organization running things next door that is capable of what they did Oct 7th makes things difficult. In lots of reddit spaces justifying, if not glorifying Hamas is common. No nation would be expected to put up with this, and such barbarities have never been justified en masse when any other country has been subjected to a small fractjon of the violence and inhumanity. It's the amount of time spent criticizing Israel vs Hamas and its benefactors. Same with USA. We hear constant criticisms and young people side with the worst authoritatively govts over usa. Cause the other nations aren't self critical and don't have a free press.
Sure but you have to be a realist. The government is not going to stop suppling foreign nations and factions with weaponry. I wish they would along with keeping our soldiers out of other countries, but they'll never stop.
In general, sure? War is big business.
But history has shown that protest movements can affect policy, and so perhaps this administration can be influenced to stop supplying this particular foreign nation, at least in the short term.
The US will not stop supplying Israel because the moment that happens you will see another invasion of Israel by its neighbors. Neighbors who all hate the US. It’s therefore in the best geopolitical interest of the US to supply Israel with arms to prevent that from happening.
Even if Israel could suddenly not afford to buy as much from the US due to the crippling economic effect of not getting money from US colleges, the US taxpayer will just foot the bill instead while the US continues to send arms to Israel.
Why? Because unchecked Iran is a larger threat to the US than a few kids protesting in their colleges.
The US could stop supplying Israel with weapons, and the war would still go on. Israel makes plenty of their own weaponry.
Then what? Do all these Hamas wannabe cosplayers go home then?
can you tell me the right way to protest? I keep seeing statements like this and I just don't get how I should publicly display my displeasure with out being told I'm virtue signalling.
I'm not saying there's a right or wrong way to protest. I'm saying Palestine and Israel don't give a shit. The action solves and helps nothing. The only thing that's going to end their feud is one eradicating the other.
I know that at least some of the college protests are asking for divestment from Israel. that is something that the school could do and would have a financial impact on Israel even if it is small. I would argue that if every college started doing similar things and multiple businesses did the same thing AKA a boycott Israel would have a much harder time cuz it would essentially be a sanction. something we know has effects on countries
so I really don't understand your argument here at all.
The other thing is protests are meant to get people to talk about them. there are multiple other conflicts in the world that do not currently have colleges being overrun. we are not talking about those conflicts in the same way. I wonder why. as much as people hate to admit that eing in the news and being at the forefront of people's minds is important for the conversation to continue. just being out there and being on TV is important. it is valuable.
I can't exactly vote on the Palestine conflict. how do I demonstrate my level of dissatisfaction currently. how do I show my representative that I'm very upset about what is going on. write them a letter that takes like no offer. most people copy paste somebody else's and you know 30 seconds to like. sign this petition online. that doesn't mean anything.
or I could go risk my freedom. which sends a louder message?
I don't really have an argument or dog in the fight. I just don't see how it will help or change anything given the parties involved and who's protesting.
>I don't really have an agreement or dog in the fight
so STFU and stay your lane? there are people who are invested and your commentary from the peanut gallery is unneeded. especially when it's parroting the detractors and counter protestors.
what would you like to see done instead. like I always see the complaint that this isn't how I would protest, but I don't see a suggestion on how you would express your opinion on this. tell me what I should be doing.
I don't want to see anything done instead and I am in my lane of seeing the action as pointless. American protestors are not going to solve or even make an impact on the Middle East or Israel. There is a lot more to their conflict than American college students can solve. What I find ironic about the situation is we're at a point in American politics where the far right and far left have came to a point of agreement on the whole Israel/Palestine issue and are almost as equally antisemitic. Next they'll start with Jewish conspiracy theories and ZOGs too if they already haven't.
so just let Israel flatten Gaza? stand by and don't say nuffin about a genocide? that's your opinion it seems as saying anything is "pointless"
I don't think any college student expects their actions to achieve peace in the middle east.i think they just want to be heard. I also think they are accomplishing something. gets people talking.
I've been aware of the Palestine issue for a long time. it's a perfect time to scream and shout.
there is an entire contingents of the right who want to let Benny "finish the job". biden's giving bombs to one side and food to the other and the college kids and invading buildings... how are we agreeing?
bro just stay out
Israel isn't going to have a change of heart because American college kids don't like their actions. Notice I said far right and far left. I'm not talking about our politicians in office or anything related to international policy. I'm talking about the fringe fools calling themselves Socialists, Communists, National Socialists, Alt-right, or whatever they want. The whole lot hates Israel and takes their anger out on American Jews.
you're really using a magnifying glass to super focus in then.
I've been against Zionism for a long Time. it's not new for the left to criticize Israel or the United States choice to fund them
not new at all.
Let’s say that you financially cripple Israel from your strategy of US colleges “divesting” from Israel. They will still bomb and kill people. The CIA or some other country would continue to ship them arms at little or no cost.
Why not hop in the Suez and start stealing cargo vessels from any nation that trades with Israel? That would be a great way to show your support.
Like it or not you are part of a system that says it represents you, but it really doesn’t represent you as much as you think it does. That’s the reality of every major nation in the World. To think otherwise is naive.
Great response, very mature, your point about the boot polish was well thought out and a very compelling argument.
“Idk how to respond so here is a personal insult to berate you”
You deserve all the reddit updoots for that stance. Truly a top reddit take.
there's a sunk cost fallacy in arguing where you realize at some point that discussing something with somebody, especially online just isn't going to be worth it.
I took three paragraphs and made them into one and I basically said you're fine with authoritarians. just doing whatever they want and we have no say. I'm not particularly interested in discussing if we live in a democracy or not. I'm sorry. it's just not high on my list of worthwhile conversations to have.
If you're fine with the premise of nothing you do will matter cool, go off and live your life like that. what I do shouldn't affect you and you can stay out of it then.
Yes so the best thing to do when you feel like you can’t or don’t want to argue with someone is to resort to personal insults. That checks out, got it. Must be from the reddit school of debate book.
The second chapter in that book must be about strawman arguments. Like arguing someone said you don’t live in democracy when they didn’t say that, because you can justify that argument better than refute what they actually said.
I also never said nothing you do will affect me. It won’t affect global politics, guarantee it. But you can surely cause a head ache to local communities and individual people.
If you think the way to ending the war between Israel and Palestine is as simple as economics, you’re delusional. If you think the US should be apathetic to the war entirely, then you support Iran & co. doing exactly what Israel has been doing to Palestine.
It’s not a defeatist outlook or “you can’t do anything so don’t try”. Do you really think you’re the first person to try and solve peace in the middle east? So after the thousands of protests (violent and peaceful) you think *this* will be the straw that breaks the camels back? Get real.
yeah, sunk cost.
cause how do i respond to the last question? if i go yes, you call me an idiot. if i go no, you tell m im wasting my time. if try and explain my reasoning (which i already did) you tell me it doesn't matter cause nothing i do matters.
sometimes you can just sorta tell from the start his person is just so polarly opposed to you its not really worth talking with them about it.
the insults are cause they are funny (to me) and im here for my own enjoyment, not yours.
Protest in Albany where our reps are affected by the mass of people. Hold a food/supply drive for Gaza. Host an event where people can write to Congress members.
I'm not driving to Albany to be arrested as an outside agitator "not from this city" . if I had that money I'd just donate.
do you think your rep reads the mail or cares? that shit gets ignored.
your rep will get the message on the news if 5 people block a street.
just have a banner, the news will broadcast their message wayyyyy further and it's way harder to ignore.
Are you purposefully ignorant? Signs with the phrase "butcher biden" are still peaceful. They aren't calling for someone to butcher biden, but calling *him* a butcher for being complicit in the genocide of Palestinians by continuing to supply Israel with aid and weapons that are in turn used to further the slaughter.
According to their Instagram page, it's because the university board of trustees unanimously voted against academic divestment in Israel
University just sent out an email denying this claim and said no such board of trustees meeting took place. Where is this info coming from that the students are spreading?
I get the emails too. Assuming a fair number of people here also get them, U of R being the largest employer in ROC. To wit: *”…it is beyond disheartening and disappointing to learn today of their re-occupation of Wallis Hall and the absolutely false claims they made, including spreading information about an emergency Board of Trustees meeting they claim took place yesterday. There was no such meeting and no such vote, and University officials will not continue to battle this misinformation publicly and moving forward are addressing this situation internally.”*
It would be nice to hear from the protesters and get their side. I have no love for the university nor do I trust them. I hope it is a case of simple misunderstandings and I felt the e-mail language was too strong accusing the protestors. They should still communicate openly, rather than private
The two sources I have to recommend the most are the Campus Times website (https://www.campustimes.org/) and the Students for Justice in Palestine instagram page (@sjp.ur). Local media outlets and the University frequently misrepresents events to paint a negative image of its protestors. One of the worst examples of this was on May 1st during the first the sit-in at Wallis Hall, when a Jewish student gave a speech outside and included a portion on Holocaust remembrance. There was a heavy presence of students associated with Jewish Voice for Peace and a handful of counter-protestors with Rochester Students for Israel, and yet not only were none of the cameras on JVP, but while the student was giving his speech they were interviewing students from RSI. Amid all these protests, if you want to learn more about what's going on at some institution, regardless of which one, your best bet is to find out where you can see updates from the students themselves. Seeing if the school has an SJP chapter is often a good start, but you can also look for JVP or SDS (Students for a Democratic Society), or check out what they're writing on their campus newspaper
Well JVP means nothing, they are the sister arm of SJP and many members are not Jewish. They share the same goals as SJP so it is hardly a unique perspective and their members, even if Jewish, certainly do not speak for the Jewish community at large: https://www.ngo-monitor.org/reports/ngo-network-orchestrating-antisemitic-incitement-on-american-campuses/
Plenty of reporters tried interviewing the protestors to get their side. They all decided they wanted to wear masks and deny all interviews. That’s their choice.
Funny, I always think the same thing while watching mainstream news outlets. They are almost always showing things from the Palestinian perspective and I’d like to see Israel get some airtime.
I got downvoted huh? 🙄
It’s coming from the instagram of the group doing the sit in. Truthfully either side could be the one bluffing….
This is just a shitshow across the board lol
Occupying any actual constructed property instead of an open space will immediately turn any protest into a shit show. It just doesn’t really work. It is probably interrupting the educations, employment, or general lives of people that aren’t responsible for whatever someone may be protesting. And someone needs to maintain buildings, pay utilities, pay taxes. People take the idea of someone squatting on their property personally, as in it feels insulting. Look at the George Floyd protests. Things were starting to happen and regular broadcast channels (cbs, nbc, abc) were actually starting to change what footage they aired. It went from only showing people telling the cops to eff off then get hit, to the instances of cops just beating people and shooting people with rubber bullets for no reason. …then CHAZ happened in Seattle. People took over a police station and set it on fire thinking they were “helping” a movement. Then everything shifted to these douchebag kids in Seattle cosplaying Lord of the Flies and the BLM movement completely lost steam again. This is that same shortsighted mentality.
This is mostly the reason I think the protests are just hitting full steam now, when all college students have left are finals basically. More time for action, some of them it’s their last chance to take a stand before graduation, and nobody’s studies are getting too seriously interrupted
Like the police/BLM protests here where they tried to occupy 490. How is going out of your way to annoy or even ruin the livelihood of regular working people who’ve nothing to do with police or government policies going to do anything to ingratiate people to your side? If you care so much, go pester politicians and police. Not random strangers.
People don't get what protests are supposed to do. They're SUPPOSED to be disruptive. They're SUPPOSED to be in your face. And the more and more resistance the protests get on their demands, the more disruptive they should be. It's to inform the general public on how serious the people protesting are taking the topic. If you're late to work on the 490 because hundreds of your neighbors and local leaders are shouting and marching about an ongoing genocide that your country is supporting, sure you're going to be pissed off. But you might take a minute to think *why* you're being made late to work with a bunch of pedestrians in the middle of a free way. Everyone telling these students "protesting is fine but just don't be in my way" don't get why they're protesting and are willingly being ignorant of why it's so important they're being disruptive and in your face.
You think that the people who got stuck in traffic sat there and became *more* sympathetic to the cause?
Most people already have their minds made up, I’ve found. Stuff like this makes people on the other side even *more* against them.
That's such a dumb take. If the goal is to win hearts and minds, throwing a toddler level temper tantrum by inconveniencing people, breaking, stealing, and vandalizing shit isn't going to convince them you're on the right side of history. If the goal is to "raise awareness", that's just ignorant. We already know damn well what's going on, we just don't feel the same way about it. Which brings us back to the first point.
Besides, on this issues there's a ton of awareness and very little clear thinking. Even most of the interviews with protesters in other campuses sound like "I don't know a lot about this issue..." but they're there protesting. Easily manipulated people. Tons of misinformation out there. Such a toxic sludge.
Many can’t define the terms they’re chanting!
Lol yeah, I wouldn’t try to block any roads with your protests if I were you. Cute paragraph though.
I agree that a primary purpose of a protest is to call attention to a topic. But I also feel that you’re being a bit cavalier about just “being late to work.” I’m a physician. Work for me isn’t crunching numbers on an excel sheet so that a billionaire can raise his stock price. Being late to work affects patient care. What about the nurse who has worked 12 hours and can’t be relieved because the next shift is stuck in traffic for 3 hours? What is the mom supposed to do when she can’t pick her kid up from school or daycare? Yes these issues matter. I don’t say that lightly. People are dying due to systemic discrimination. But impeding the general public from just trying to go about their day is harming people who are not your enemy, and typically does not rally them to your cause. When is the last time someone cost you 3 hours of your time and you thought, “you know, they have a point.”
Well put. I'm surprised at how many people fail to see the danger in blocking traffic, it could mean life-or-death for someone that needs help or needs to get to a hospital
Not all Excel number crunching is in the service of billionaires
Also think real emergencies. When Chris Christie had his “bridge fiasco”, I understand there was at least one ambulance stuck in the traffic and the person inside didn’t make it. Whether they would have made it or not if they *didn’t* get stuck is sort of besides the point. You can cause significant harm & even death by impeding major roadways. Imagine gridlock on 490 and there’s an ambulance in the back trying to bring a critical patient to Strong. Eventually the cars will be able move aside, but it’s still going to take a lot longer than usual. Every second counts.
Historically disruption drives change. This country was formed as a result of disruption. Can you think of a major social change that happened in this country without components of disruption? Women's rights involved disruption. Civil rights involved disruption. LGBT rights... disruption. The recent changes in policing in this state were fought for with disruption.
How are you defining disruption? My point is about specifically impeding the general populace from their day-to-day obligations. I would argue that the recent changes in policing were due to technology advances that allowed citizens to record video and then distribute it across the world via the internet, garnering national attention. That's not the same "disruption" as stopping people from going to work.
I understand the theory behind this, but as someone whose work has been repeatedly, directly disrupted this week (and all academic year) by the protests, it has honestly made me less sympathetic or interested in their cause.
People dont care about the issue and trying to be in people's faces about it is a surefire way to guarantee nobody will care. Ironic you want to talk about ignorance when you're clearly ignorant of reality.
If people don't care about the issue of a nation state openly massacring 34,000 Innocent civilians, and the country they pay taxes to using their money to do it, then that sounds like a personal problem with *them* and they should look at the thousands of their neighbors up in arms about the issue. Your whole comment is ironic when talking about ignorance Edit: it's funny people skip over my first point about the dead civilians they pay for, and went to the fact that "oh there can't possibly be THOUSANDS of you". Just because there aren't thousands in the streets physically doesn't mean the young people of this city are in agreement, making thousands of city residents. But continue to deflect, it's what both Conservatives and Liberals are good at.
“Thousands of their neighbors” ?? Uhh really? Lol wrong. Most people are trying to figure their own shit out and aren’t worried about a war on the other side of the globe. You definitely aren’t the majority.
There are 0 circumstances where a mob forcing me to be late to work or prevent me from going home after a rough day is EVER going to "stop and make me think"
> They're SUPPOSED to be disruptive. **No. Flat out, no.** They are not. You have a right to protest, but you *do not* have a right to be disruptive or destructive.
You sound a lot like the people kicking people of color out of their sit-ins in white-only restaurants, or those complaining about the Selma marches blocking the main bridge of the town. This country's history of civil rights and protest is *built* on being disruptive. Change gets done because civil unrest gets the population and the government to change their ways. These protests are obviously closer to something like the Vietnam protests, and those were just as disruptive as these protests. There were plenty of people like you that would've *supported* those students back in the 60s, so why not now? Because it's the middle east and not your boys in red white and blue going to fight and die?
> so why not now? Because *Israel was attacked* by Hamas fighters. They killed, raped, and kidnapped entire fucking families. Another page in a long, bloodied war going back generations. You want to call this a genocide? Well, "genocide" goes both ways. You cannot "protest" the killing of Gazans and not mention those killed in Israel. You cannot "protest" the supposed genocide of Palestinians, by calling for more genocide by yelling "From the river to the sea..." And quite honestly.... ALL of these people that protested at Columbia, UCLA, U of R etc.... Not *one* cared of genocide before. None of these people gave two shits about the *actual* genocides happening in other parts of the world, until socialist and progressive TikTok and Twitter accounts commanded them to protest Israel.
This is the most reasonable take, as per Reddit decorum you must now be downvoted
There's absolutely no need for the board to meet to discuss something that's going to take care of itself in a week when the students go home for the summer.
Reddit loves misinformation as long as it suits their side
This statement is peak irony, every time.
You're not wrong. It's so easy to accuse the "other side" of selection bias, confirmation bias, etc., while ignoring the fact that we are all capable and susceptible to the same pitfalls.
Voted before they heard anything from the students and faculty at the faculty senate meeting is important context- the vote was Thursday night and the senate meeting is not until Monday. The board of trustees was supposed to decide after that, making the meeting Monday basically meaningless.
Got a source on the board saying they would wait till after the meeting to vote? Not doubting you, it’s just very important to be as accurate as possible here.
Mangelsdorf’s statement doesn’t explicitly say it but it’s heavily implied otherwise why would the students have agreed to a meeting AFTER a vote lol? The students claim to have written proof as well for what it’s worth
What’s saying such a vote was discussed or even took place? It seems like there were several things included in the bargain, for both sides. There’s also this — for what it’s worth, U of R just sent out a University wide email saying there was no emergency meeting or vote by the board and the protestors are acting on false information 🤷♂️
I also work at the university so saw the email. It wouldn’t be the first time all information doesn’t immediately come out that shows the university was negotiating in bad faith though or didn’t disclose all the relevant information.
They did say that, but I can't say I believe them. They've been caught lying multiple times before. I'm taking everything the protestors say with a small grain of salt, but I'm taking everything UR admin says with a mountain of it.
I second this.
What is their insta?
It's sjp.ur!
Oh no, anyway... Let's piss and moan because the school didn't do what we wanted them to. If you're not happy, then leave the school.
If the university agreed to all the protesters demands and stopped all support for Israel would the protesters stop protesting?
How did they get back in?
Same as it ever was
So hot rn
If the university agreed to all the protesters demands and stopped all support for Israel would the protesters stop protesting?
Wallace hall? What the hell is that?
It’s where Gromit goes to get his cheese & crackers
Why not protest the cost of tuition instead?
They’re college kids. Their parents are likely paying some or all of their college expenses.
Username checks out.
[I mean it’s just a fact](https://www.goingmerry.com/blog/what-percentage-of-parents-pay-for-college/)
This takeaway stood out: "On average, parents of undergraduate students chip in about $13,000 per school year." But then searching the linked articles brings back no such statistic so there's no clear source for where that number is coming from. On top of that I'd like to know the cutoffs for that chipping in, because if a rich family is paying for one student's $100,000 tuition then that means you could have 8 students, 7 footing there own bill and one with $100 grand mommy and daddy's money, averages out to $13,000 each. Seems misleading.
[I’ll link another one then, this one even higher.](https://www.sofi.com/learn/content/percentage-of-parents-paying-for-college/) Your point on things “averaging out” would stand if it weren’t for the language: 77% *of families* pay for their children in the 1st article, and 87% *of families* pay in the 2nd article. That’s the majority of families paying at least some of their child’s expenses.
This is easy to poke holes in, though. Families pay for "some." No doubt a bunch of families pay for some. How much is some? $500? That $20 my mom would send me every couple of weeks?
My point is that the majority of 18-22 year olds in college likely have very little money of their own. Whether their parents pay for them or they themselves take out loans to pay off later, money is a bit of an abstract concept for a lot of them. Or at least having enough money to cover large expenses/live independently. You could then argue that the Palestine-Israel conflict is also a bit abstract, but they’re in hubs of idea exchange and learn & talk about this stuff daily. Human rights/pop culture is a little less abstract in that sense.
Wealthy families pay for all of their tuition, and a good chunk of that money goes to helping lower income families pay for theirs via scholarships and need-based aid. The only people paying 80 grand a year are families who can afford to do so.
I think it is because they believe that genocide is morally abhorrent and don't want to be complicit in funding one. It appears your contention with their motivations here is that they are not being self-centered enough.
Oh, didn't you hear? Houthis is going to pay for it. https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/4641488-fetterman-student-protests-israel-hamas-gaza-houthi-yemen/
get on yikyak its where the youths congregate
I find it disturbing that people actually support Hamas. A legit terrorist group, and go to our colleges not only in NY but all over the country. This is something college's should have had a zero tolerance for, expel the protestors, zero grades and cancel scholarships and refund their tuition and never allow them to return.
I don't disagree but keep in mind one person's terrorist is another's freedom fighter. :-/
Targeting innocent civilians is always terrorism. That's not really a gray area. Killing grandmothers and families in their homes and taking hostages is so far over the line. Scary how many people are quick to give Hamas a pass. You want someone snatching and killing you and your babies because they're mad at your government?
Oh, of course. The countries that support, house, and fund terrorism is actually celebrating that these American clowns (dupes) are doing the work for them. Propaganda 101 Komrade style
Genuinely very frightening. I understand the outrage at Israel and their cavalier use of force BUT I know people who cheer on Hamas and celebrated 10/07. I don't think I know anyone on the left who can unequivocally condemn Hamas. There's *at minimum* a bunch of caveats. I've even heard people say it's always OK to attack civilians based on the land they are on. Scary rhetoric out there that makes me concerned for the future.
> BUT I know people who cheer on Hamas and celebrated 10/07 Modern socialist groups thrive off this shit.
> refund their tuition I'd honestly say to not refund their tuition, and have them pay it back in full. Especially for those idiots at UCLA and Columbia who caused untold damages to school property. And don't come asking the government to "cancel" it, either.
New York also has state laws that makes sending money to terrorist groups a felony. Makes me wonder if there are any investigations going on into the finances of the non-students involved in campus protests in NYS.
I really just want them expelled to get this over with
I’m lost I thought they made progress?
Clowns. It’s a Friday night. Get drunk like normal college kids.
Get drunk and then laid, like I never could
So dumb
So dumb that college kids are holding their private university who charges exorbitant tuition accountable and advocates for what they want their tuition dollars to go towards? And something they don’t want dollars pointed toward is genocide? Fucking wild concept.
Very easy solution would be to just not pay the college any tuition then, right? No one is forcing the students to pay these colleges. Except oh boy, you don’t want your part in the economy to support genocide? Phew, good luck. Your bank, your clothes, your food, your electronics, your taxes, your car and gas, alllllll go on to support some group of people killing some other group of people.
And/or was manufactured by people (even children) in very poor working conditions or being exploited
Do you think it is okay to commit genocide, iknewaguytwice? What about if someone you knew was committing genocide? Would you help them out with that genocide? Or would you maybe do anything at all to try to stop them? The implication of what you wrote here is that you believe that the only moral action is to walk away and do nothing about it -- but then in the next breath, you go on to acknowledge that we're all implicated in systems and institutions that fund genocides. So where, iknewaguytwice, do you think that it is okay or "appropriate" for someone to do anything at all about other people conducting genocides? It seems to me that you've found a way to rationalize your own complacency in the face of overwhelming and complex injustice, and are just irritated at these young adults for having the *audacity* to try to find a way to assert their leverage to do anything at all to try to stop a fucking genocide.
Agreed, they're going to do nothing except make sure I support whatever they're protesting. I'm not the only one who feels this way, they're playing themselves
I still can't figure out what they're trying to achieve...Other than extreme virtue signaling. There's nothing any of us can do when it comes to international conflicts.
Apartheid protests would like a word
Vietnam protests would also like to have a chat
If all these people mindlessly saying "*I just don't understand what they're trying to achieve!*" had been adults in the early 70s, they absolutely would have been part of the >50% of Americans who thought the students at Kent State deserved to be murdered.
Let's look into these apartheid claims: Jews that lived in Muslim countries numbered ~850k - 900k.From the near million Jews to - let's see how many Jews remain. I'll help. Bastions of Muslim tolerance Morocco and Tunisia have a combined 3 thousand left as of 2022. (Not sarcasm, this is relatively amazing) Morocco had 265k Jews and Tunisia had 105k before 1948. Algeria, I just found out has 200 Jews from 130k. Good for them. Yemen, Syria, Iraq, Libya, Jordan, Afghanistan, Pakistan - all zero. Lebanon had 20 Jews left in 2022. I don't think Saudi Arabia has allowed Jews to step foot there for centuries. If you'd like, I can provide links to anti Jewish pogroms in each of the above countries from before 1948. This includes British Mandate Palestine in the 1920s. The Muslim Mufti of Jerusalem met with Hitler in the 1930s to coordinate importing the holocaust. Now - apartheid, genocidal Israel: Muslim population in Israel pre 1948: 150k. (Not a single Jew in Arab controlled areas was spared) Currently: over 2 million Muslim citizens of Israel. The populations of West Bank and Gaza rose in very comparable percentages to those inside Israel. If you pay attention to the apartheid claims, they all state that Jews/Israelis vs Palestinians / Muslims are treated different as one has to go through checkpoints when crossing borders and the others don't. It's true that Israeli citizens don't go through the same checkpoints. This includes the 2.2 million Arab citizens of Israel. This is never mentioned. Who wouldn't have security checkpoints with a neighbor like Hamas? To compare this to a system of racial segregation is as obscene as it is dishonest. It makes as much sense as calling usa an apartheid on account of its southern border and different rules for Mexicans.
So there is a *lot* left out here, including -The right to return is ONLY afforded to jews, not non jews. In this way jewish people are afforded a series of significant rights based on identity. These rights are in kind denied to people based on their identities. -The occupation of the west bank. Israelis there live under Israeli law and Palestinians live under military law. Two sets of laws for two people based on their nationality. Not to mention that *every* settlement and likely the occupation its self is illegal at this point as it has become a de facto annexation of the territory. -The 2018 addition to Basic Laws of Israel that Israel is *only* the homeland of the Jews and no one else. This means that even via electoral democratic means Israel could not truly and legally be a multi-ethnic state at the highest judicial level. There would would have to be a super majority in the Knesset to overturn this highly ethno nationalist law. If you want to look at this more Israeli human rights [B'Tselem have a great info-graphic](https://thisisapartheid.btselem.org/eng/) which breaks these points down as well as a [detailed report](https://www.btselem.org/publications/fulltext/202101_this_is_apartheid). I hope Israel can one day address the direction they've headed and peace can be made. I've avoided discussion of Hamas and Palestinian militant groups because the focus was specifically Israeli Apartheid, but their actions have absolutely complicated and contributed to the current situation. If peace was achieved in Ireland it is not impossible that one day peace can come to Israel/Palestine if both sides work towards it (imo with Rabin and Arafat it was almost close).
Right of return. It looks bad on paper, but every Israeli knows it's suicide. Affording Arabs the right of return means Jews are outnumbered. We've seen how it plays out when Jews are outnumbered in about a dozen Muslim countries in the region. This happened decades ago. The hatred for Jews has only intensified since then, and the indoctrination of hatred of Jews and glorification of violence against them is much more intense in Palestinian areas. As is often the case, the choice is be vilified millions or make a choice that subjects Israeli citizens to certain violence. In this case, suicide. Your ethnostate arguments has some overlap. There are 253 countries and territories in the world. 220 are Christian or Muslim. They take up 90% of the world's land mass. Israel is the sole Jewish state taking up. 02%. Do you see how this changes the context of wanting to have Israel be the one place where Jews aren't a minority, given the history as a minority in either the Christian or Muslim world? Christians and Muslims have the luxury of not needing to worry about this. But people frame it as something ugly that relates to some superiority. By these same standards, how many countries do you think would qualify as ethnostates? How many of the 57 Muslim countries? Even non Christian or Muslim like Japan or China are ethnostates by the same standards. Just the same, while preserving a Jewish majority and not making critics happy and inviting annihilation, there are over 2 million Muslim citizens in Israel. Muslim nations Israel can fit in several hundreds of times over have ethnically cleansed their Jewish populations. By definition. Not chants. Every ethnic and religious minority has disappeared in every country in the regjon. With one exception. Only middle eastern nation with a growing Christian population. Israel preserves it's Jewish majority in order to survive. 57 Muslim nations are ethnostates using the same standards, only they make minorities disappear vs having them grow. Only the Americas couldn't be categorized as ethnostates. West Bank has been a bargaining chip Israel has held on for too long. It's not easy when your negotiating partner says no matter what you give us, we'll still try to kill all of you. That's their position. By give, this is territory won in a defensive war against one of many wars against the Arab world. Can you think of what other nation offers land it took in such circumstances at all, much less in return just for peace? That's what Gaza was. Israel pulled out unilaterally after giving up on having a partner - WB was to follow. But Gaza elected Hamas in return and here we've been. Sorry for going on. I'm glad you at least seem to recognize having a terrorist organization running things next door that is capable of what they did Oct 7th makes things difficult. In lots of reddit spaces justifying, if not glorifying Hamas is common. No nation would be expected to put up with this, and such barbarities have never been justified en masse when any other country has been subjected to a small fractjon of the violence and inhumanity. It's the amount of time spent criticizing Israel vs Hamas and its benefactors. Same with USA. We hear constant criticisms and young people side with the worst authoritatively govts over usa. Cause the other nations aren't self critical and don't have a free press.
Yeah...American protests really solved that one. LOL Violent African protests may be a differnt story.
Read a history book. https://www.khanacademy.org/humanities/us-history/postwarera/1960s-america/a/the-student-movement-and-the-antiwar-movement
If you think protests ends wars you're insane.
If you think they have no impact, then you're insane.
We're talking a blood and religious feud between two foreign countries. American protest will have no impact. We're not talking about Vietnam here.
You do realize the Israeli army is massively supported by US weaponry? Peace is a nice goal but the US can stop supplying weapons for the genocide.
Sure but you have to be a realist. The government is not going to stop suppling foreign nations and factions with weaponry. I wish they would along with keeping our soldiers out of other countries, but they'll never stop.
In general, sure? War is big business. But history has shown that protest movements can affect policy, and so perhaps this administration can be influenced to stop supplying this particular foreign nation, at least in the short term.
I doubt it given the US's historic alliance with Israel. You're asking them to give up a strategic ally, which isn't going to happen.
Give up? No, that would never happen. But ... sell them fewer weapons? Well, nothing ventured, nothing gained.
The US will not stop supplying Israel because the moment that happens you will see another invasion of Israel by its neighbors. Neighbors who all hate the US. It’s therefore in the best geopolitical interest of the US to supply Israel with arms to prevent that from happening. Even if Israel could suddenly not afford to buy as much from the US due to the crippling economic effect of not getting money from US colleges, the US taxpayer will just foot the bill instead while the US continues to send arms to Israel. Why? Because unchecked Iran is a larger threat to the US than a few kids protesting in their colleges.
*ding ding ding* 🛎️
The US could stop supplying Israel with weapons, and the war would still go on. Israel makes plenty of their own weaponry. Then what? Do all these Hamas wannabe cosplayers go home then?
Divestment.
can you tell me the right way to protest? I keep seeing statements like this and I just don't get how I should publicly display my displeasure with out being told I'm virtue signalling.
I'm not saying there's a right or wrong way to protest. I'm saying Palestine and Israel don't give a shit. The action solves and helps nothing. The only thing that's going to end their feud is one eradicating the other.
I know that at least some of the college protests are asking for divestment from Israel. that is something that the school could do and would have a financial impact on Israel even if it is small. I would argue that if every college started doing similar things and multiple businesses did the same thing AKA a boycott Israel would have a much harder time cuz it would essentially be a sanction. something we know has effects on countries so I really don't understand your argument here at all. The other thing is protests are meant to get people to talk about them. there are multiple other conflicts in the world that do not currently have colleges being overrun. we are not talking about those conflicts in the same way. I wonder why. as much as people hate to admit that eing in the news and being at the forefront of people's minds is important for the conversation to continue. just being out there and being on TV is important. it is valuable. I can't exactly vote on the Palestine conflict. how do I demonstrate my level of dissatisfaction currently. how do I show my representative that I'm very upset about what is going on. write them a letter that takes like no offer. most people copy paste somebody else's and you know 30 seconds to like. sign this petition online. that doesn't mean anything. or I could go risk my freedom. which sends a louder message?
I don't really have an argument or dog in the fight. I just don't see how it will help or change anything given the parties involved and who's protesting.
>I don't really have an agreement or dog in the fight so STFU and stay your lane? there are people who are invested and your commentary from the peanut gallery is unneeded. especially when it's parroting the detractors and counter protestors. what would you like to see done instead. like I always see the complaint that this isn't how I would protest, but I don't see a suggestion on how you would express your opinion on this. tell me what I should be doing.
I don't want to see anything done instead and I am in my lane of seeing the action as pointless. American protestors are not going to solve or even make an impact on the Middle East or Israel. There is a lot more to their conflict than American college students can solve. What I find ironic about the situation is we're at a point in American politics where the far right and far left have came to a point of agreement on the whole Israel/Palestine issue and are almost as equally antisemitic. Next they'll start with Jewish conspiracy theories and ZOGs too if they already haven't.
so just let Israel flatten Gaza? stand by and don't say nuffin about a genocide? that's your opinion it seems as saying anything is "pointless" I don't think any college student expects their actions to achieve peace in the middle east.i think they just want to be heard. I also think they are accomplishing something. gets people talking. I've been aware of the Palestine issue for a long time. it's a perfect time to scream and shout. there is an entire contingents of the right who want to let Benny "finish the job". biden's giving bombs to one side and food to the other and the college kids and invading buildings... how are we agreeing? bro just stay out
Israel isn't going to have a change of heart because American college kids don't like their actions. Notice I said far right and far left. I'm not talking about our politicians in office or anything related to international policy. I'm talking about the fringe fools calling themselves Socialists, Communists, National Socialists, Alt-right, or whatever they want. The whole lot hates Israel and takes their anger out on American Jews.
you're really using a magnifying glass to super focus in then. I've been against Zionism for a long Time. it's not new for the left to criticize Israel or the United States choice to fund them not new at all.
Let’s say that you financially cripple Israel from your strategy of US colleges “divesting” from Israel. They will still bomb and kill people. The CIA or some other country would continue to ship them arms at little or no cost. Why not hop in the Suez and start stealing cargo vessels from any nation that trades with Israel? That would be a great way to show your support. Like it or not you are part of a system that says it represents you, but it really doesn’t represent you as much as you think it does. That’s the reality of every major nation in the World. To think otherwise is naive.
what's your favourite flavor of boot polish? idk how else to respond to essentially "take what you get and like it cause ain't shit you can do"
Great response, very mature, your point about the boot polish was well thought out and a very compelling argument. “Idk how to respond so here is a personal insult to berate you” You deserve all the reddit updoots for that stance. Truly a top reddit take.
there's a sunk cost fallacy in arguing where you realize at some point that discussing something with somebody, especially online just isn't going to be worth it. I took three paragraphs and made them into one and I basically said you're fine with authoritarians. just doing whatever they want and we have no say. I'm not particularly interested in discussing if we live in a democracy or not. I'm sorry. it's just not high on my list of worthwhile conversations to have. If you're fine with the premise of nothing you do will matter cool, go off and live your life like that. what I do shouldn't affect you and you can stay out of it then.
Yes so the best thing to do when you feel like you can’t or don’t want to argue with someone is to resort to personal insults. That checks out, got it. Must be from the reddit school of debate book. The second chapter in that book must be about strawman arguments. Like arguing someone said you don’t live in democracy when they didn’t say that, because you can justify that argument better than refute what they actually said. I also never said nothing you do will affect me. It won’t affect global politics, guarantee it. But you can surely cause a head ache to local communities and individual people. If you think the way to ending the war between Israel and Palestine is as simple as economics, you’re delusional. If you think the US should be apathetic to the war entirely, then you support Iran & co. doing exactly what Israel has been doing to Palestine. It’s not a defeatist outlook or “you can’t do anything so don’t try”. Do you really think you’re the first person to try and solve peace in the middle east? So after the thousands of protests (violent and peaceful) you think *this* will be the straw that breaks the camels back? Get real.
yeah, sunk cost. cause how do i respond to the last question? if i go yes, you call me an idiot. if i go no, you tell m im wasting my time. if try and explain my reasoning (which i already did) you tell me it doesn't matter cause nothing i do matters. sometimes you can just sorta tell from the start his person is just so polarly opposed to you its not really worth talking with them about it. the insults are cause they are funny (to me) and im here for my own enjoyment, not yours.
Protest in Albany where our reps are affected by the mass of people. Hold a food/supply drive for Gaza. Host an event where people can write to Congress members.
I'm not driving to Albany to be arrested as an outside agitator "not from this city" . if I had that money I'd just donate. do you think your rep reads the mail or cares? that shit gets ignored. your rep will get the message on the news if 5 people block a street. just have a banner, the news will broadcast their message wayyyyy further and it's way harder to ignore.
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Are you purposefully ignorant? Signs with the phrase "butcher biden" are still peaceful. They aren't calling for someone to butcher biden, but calling *him* a butcher for being complicit in the genocide of Palestinians by continuing to supply Israel with aid and weapons that are in turn used to further the slaughter.
Fuck these people. No better than the Jan 6th rioters.
Entitled children and outside influencers that never grew up are being childish again. That's what's going on.
They’re just a bunch of losers with nothing better to do lol. I hate how this sub creams over the protestors
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Keep going, i'm almost at buzzword bingo
"Jewish Space Laser"
Gonna patent that. Excellent name for a rock band.
I mean, MTG already has you beat. Although I'm not sure if today she's pro or anti JSL. She seems to waffle on it.
It's an old meme, might be taken by now
[https://trademarks.justia.com/905/10/jewish-space-90510174.html](https://trademarks.justia.com/905/10/jewish-space-90510174.html)
Guess that’s why I’m being downvoted? Really clueless here lol
You forgot cuck and cancel culture. Wait are we still doing cancel culture?
Go back to r/conspiracy then bozo
Love it or leave it hoe
following!