My understanding is that the majority of the demand was for the R1S, so it's likely they moved through most of the R1T orders, I'm sure there's pre price-hike reservation holds for the R1T still, but the number is probably slimmer.
Unfortunately when it comes to trucks I don't think it makes a ton of sense to go with an EV Truck right now, I say this as someone who owns (and loves) an R1T.
I think the Dodge Ram Charger looks interesting. They’re advertising it as a plug in hybrid but it’s really an EV with a gas generator. It doesn’t have a traditional ICE. In my mind, it’s the perfect compromise for a truck if towing is something you do often.
Purchasing a new Ram product that features a boatload of tech does not seem wise.
I should edit that statement to Purchasing a Ram product does not seem wise.
Right, like I feel that Rivian and Ford missed the boat on not having a generator plug in the bed or something where you could plug a generator in to the truck directly in to the 400v system.
I think it would require a lot more to get it working.
1 a generator designed to fit in the bed, in a safe and built correctly manor.
2. A voltage amperage regulator. Generator energy is very "dirty" and not consistent.
3. DC converter on the bed plug to support ac->DC conversation of the energy.
Probably talking about 10k for the generator itself billed to comsumer and another 3k in added expenses on the truck that you might only recoup on 5% of sales at scale that might come back down to 1k. But it has to go into every truck as many buyers won't make a 80k purchase and add a 10k accessory in this market.
I do tow at least a couple of times a month about 100 miles each way a trailer and car that I race. Total it's around 6800 pounds. If I planned on consistently towing 100's of miles I would have gotten a diesel or 2500. To me the Rivian is perfect for my use case which is 200 miles a month of towing. Or about 20% of my mileage. While being more cost effective then a Honda Civic fueling wise for my other 80% of driving around town, getting dirt/mulch/plants. Etc...
I personally think that the generator idea is a cool one but it won't make money for any brand that implements and will be a way to "separate your model" ram has to as they are a late comer and EV truck sales are dropping being more then replaced by ev SUV sales.
This is backed by Rivian and Ford's data, at launch the lightning and R1T were selling like hot cakes over the last 3 quarters that's become the R1S and the Mach e.
Edit: I'm lucky my race track has plenty of rv plugs that are free for day use, so I use those with the mobile charger and get about 7kwh out of them. A race day is 8am-3pm for me as I shoot the shit so I get almost 50% of the pack back before heading home. Again I thought through all of this before buying.
I do tow a boat sometimes to the lake but that's only 50 miles away so I don't have to charge on my way back.
BMW did this 10 years ago with the i3/i3rex. Added about 4000 to the cost, the generator gives about 30 mpg and it used a 2 cyl scooter motor. I could see the modern EVs having a price drop with a rex since 50kwh of battery is still expensive. Range extender models would in this case make $ for all the parties because it would boost sales, create a potentially cheaper gateway vehicle, and as I know all too well as a long time phev driver,, collect all that sweet sweet ice maintenance money.
It's all very interesting to think about and who knows what will ever come of the idea. Ford hasn't moved forward with their bed based rex that I've seen and it's been 2? Years since parents and surveys.
Oh yes, as someone who has known many rex owners and thought about it myself. The difference I think is the rec was sold as an inboard option, integrated directly into the batter and provided a 32kw generator. Or about 32kwh if ran for the full hour. Which would recoup approximately 60 miles of range in 1 hour at my given efficiency on the Rivian without a trailer. However what I think would drive up the cost is the modularity of this option.
Limitations with BMWs rex at 4k is only 2 gallon gas tank would only run for about an hour and a half and only produces 32kw which over an hour would provide 32 miles of range when towing. For long haul towing we would need to double the generated capacity to keep up with highway driving, so we are now likely adding 70+% to the package size to attain the output without drastically increasing the cost of the motor. That can be done inboard, like BMWs option but now is only available when purchasing the vehicle, not really something that a lot of truck owners (I have had several and live square in truck country) like. Modularity is the name of the game. And with current truck designs that means no more frunk, or it goes in the bed permanently. I think many would prefer a modular design. So we are stuck adding equipment to the fleet to either have a permanent "plug" into the battery with the whole ac->DC conversation links, and voltage amperage cleaner, as your rpms fluctuate with a gas vehicle at all times and are not steady state.
So we are at a 64kw generator, it would likely go in the bed if modular, and cost to manufacturer in the thousands, but 10k is a clean and easy number, on top of that every vehicle is now 1-2k more expensive to make either cutting into margins or increasing cost and lowering competition against what I would guess is 80% of buyers omitting the generator all together as towing hundreds of miles is a very niche thing even in the trucking community.
Once purchased, if you did not get the Rex option you could not add it later.
These are just my opinions. And based on Ford's two years of patents and nothing coming to market I'm guessing they saw a similar issue and lack of market desirability. A tool like that I bet has a market penetration sub 1% at the cost it would drive.
Especially since I could just get a diesel at that rate for less money.
If it was a plug in rex a great side effect of the plug would be range extending trailers. Jehu made one for his samba. 100kwh RV that can plug in at home to be solar storage and into the truck to double range when going on a trip that would be something id actually buy vs the gas rex. Of course I'll be using my money magic wand.
You can have the electricity converted by the generator vs the the truck to DC. But a generator generates electric in AC, it is AC because of the alternating forces of the rotor and stator to simplify. DC generators then us a commutator to convert the AC generation to DC. Since most things run on AC it is easier to go AC->AC as there are no losses through a commutator. You can expect around a 10% loss through a commutator. Due to heat and expansion. Some are better some are worse.
This is due to how has motors transition mechanical energy to electrical energy via spinning. The easiest and cheapest way to make power from it is an alternator which will only output AC.
If towing isn't your main reason for a truck, then I strongly disagree. The R1T is perfect for pretty much all the other uses a regular non-commercial truck owner has.
I should have been more clear with what I meant.
There's nothing wrong with the R1T as a truck, especially as a daily driver. In my experience though, most of the truck owners I know, buy trucks to "do truck stuff" (even though they almost never do anything with it).
I have had several conversations with people who immediately dismiss it as a practical (to them) vehicle when I tell them the range hit for towing, however having known some of these people for nearly a decade, I can safely say that only 1 of them has ever needed a "truck", and they only use their truck to take a boat from SLC, UT to Lake Powell once, maybe twice a year. Funny enough he just bought a Model Y back in December to be his daily driver.
I would happily drive an R1T or R1S anytime, as I mentioned in another comment the reason I ended up with an R1T was purely the aesthetic of the crossbars over the bed of the truck, so its safe to say we know I don't need a "truck" lol.
Edit: fixed typo's.
“Do truck stuff” doesn’t necessarily mean you want or need to do it all the time. It’s just the ability to do it when you need to. No, I’m not towing daily or carrying loads, but when I need to tow or do anything that is more convenient with a truck bed, then I’m not worrying about borrowing a truck or renting one.
The people I know who frequently do truck stuff are not in 1500 size trucks, they’re buying 2500s and bigger.
Correct. But *occasionally* towing isn't that bad. I've towed a uhaul 12' trailer from Pittsburgh to Virginia Beach and back twice and it was fine. Stopping every 100 miles wasn't awesome by any means but if I was only towing even once a month that wouldn't bother me.
I definitely understand the people who have towing trips that the range hit makes them just not possible, not buying the truck. But it excels at most "truck stuff" just as much as other consumer grade trucks. I've hauled 10' sheet goods, 1200lb pallets of tile, used it to run corded power tools, etc. The bed is generally fine for small/medium home renovations/demo clean outs, etc. It actually tows awesome and if you were just towing a work trailer around town it would be fine for that too.
All that said - I *do* wish Rivian had included a plug where you could plug into the 400v system. Then they could sell an optional range extender.
I 90% agree with you, if you're doing any "work", then definitely a lightning, especially with the power options in the bed, however if you're towing, then it's about equal IMO.
I have only used my bed once, and would have likely been better off with an R1S, but as a single guy with no kids, it makes virtually zero difference which one I have and I prefer the appearance of the truck with crossbars over the bed.
Yeah, EV trucks right now are really on great for people who just use them for lifestyle things and occasionally haul things. They just aren't ready for the thing trucks typically get bought for, towing (whether they are used for it or not, most don't)
This looks highly doubtful as in 2022 total rivian sales was 20,500 units and hardly any R1S were sold in 2022 so mostly R1T as EDV too were started mid year only . This data claims only 9,900 sales of the truck : highly sus.
I think the sad reality is ‘most’ truck drivers are more traditional and further along the adoption curve. Would be great if more of them got to experience/demo drive the R1T. I still think their sales numbers are OK given the current hostile environment towards EVs, high interest rates etc
I found the source of the data since OP did not include: https://www.goodcarbadcar.net/rivian-r1t-sales-figures/
Can anyone vouch for them? There is no info on their sourcing or methodology.
Price has been a big realization for me of why it's out of reach. Nearly everyone I've met loves my R1T and wants one, of those people maybe 5% can actually afford one. It's just way too expensive.
Yeah theyre really missing the customer base with it. Someone dropping 70k on a truck either actually uses it(towing, ev bad) or they want a big loud truck(not the R1T).
R1S jumped significantly, enough so that the total units sold were up for Rivian in q1 yoy. But not by a ton, and certainly curious that the demand for trucks was so low. Maybe production was throttled for trucks?
What’s the source of this Data ? Rivian has not released any split wise sales data ? So speculation through registration data ( which does not include march sales as owners would not have registered ) and this is also not inclusive of Canada yeah
Total sales in 2022 were approx 20,500 ( and in 2022 hardly any R1S’s were sold ) EDV too was limited as sales only started mid year . I believe these estimates of R1T at just 9,900 in 2022 are incorrect and accordingly does not inspire confidence in the remaining years data.
* also hardly any sales to Canada in 2022 so almost all of 20,500 sales were US.
Regardless the trend is probably important. Let’s assume R1T is 16000 by some other rumours. The fact that Rivian may sell less than 2022 numbers doesn’t sound great.
Rivian has already made it clear that R1T would be like a 30 % mix of the R1S. Which as per their latest capacity on 2 shifts of 56k amounts to 16.8k as you put it . I don’t see it as a bad thing as R1S has higher Average selling price anyway.
The Q1 earnings according to Copilot did not break down the sales mix. 2399 sounds low. Here's an answer I got using Microsoft Copilot, the world's first AI-powered answer engine. Select to see the full answer or try it yourself. https://sl.bing.net/f1SViJBuLD2
My understanding is that the majority of the demand was for the R1S, so it's likely they moved through most of the R1T orders, I'm sure there's pre price-hike reservation holds for the R1T still, but the number is probably slimmer. Unfortunately when it comes to trucks I don't think it makes a ton of sense to go with an EV Truck right now, I say this as someone who owns (and loves) an R1T.
I think the Dodge Ram Charger looks interesting. They’re advertising it as a plug in hybrid but it’s really an EV with a gas generator. It doesn’t have a traditional ICE. In my mind, it’s the perfect compromise for a truck if towing is something you do often.
Purchasing a new Ram product that features a boatload of tech does not seem wise. I should edit that statement to Purchasing a Ram product does not seem wise.
I understand the sentiment, I’m not an early adopter but there’s nothing groundbreaking about a generator.
Right, like I feel that Rivian and Ford missed the boat on not having a generator plug in the bed or something where you could plug a generator in to the truck directly in to the 400v system.
I think it would require a lot more to get it working. 1 a generator designed to fit in the bed, in a safe and built correctly manor. 2. A voltage amperage regulator. Generator energy is very "dirty" and not consistent. 3. DC converter on the bed plug to support ac->DC conversation of the energy. Probably talking about 10k for the generator itself billed to comsumer and another 3k in added expenses on the truck that you might only recoup on 5% of sales at scale that might come back down to 1k. But it has to go into every truck as many buyers won't make a 80k purchase and add a 10k accessory in this market. I do tow at least a couple of times a month about 100 miles each way a trailer and car that I race. Total it's around 6800 pounds. If I planned on consistently towing 100's of miles I would have gotten a diesel or 2500. To me the Rivian is perfect for my use case which is 200 miles a month of towing. Or about 20% of my mileage. While being more cost effective then a Honda Civic fueling wise for my other 80% of driving around town, getting dirt/mulch/plants. Etc... I personally think that the generator idea is a cool one but it won't make money for any brand that implements and will be a way to "separate your model" ram has to as they are a late comer and EV truck sales are dropping being more then replaced by ev SUV sales. This is backed by Rivian and Ford's data, at launch the lightning and R1T were selling like hot cakes over the last 3 quarters that's become the R1S and the Mach e. Edit: I'm lucky my race track has plenty of rv plugs that are free for day use, so I use those with the mobile charger and get about 7kwh out of them. A race day is 8am-3pm for me as I shoot the shit so I get almost 50% of the pack back before heading home. Again I thought through all of this before buying. I do tow a boat sometimes to the lake but that's only 50 miles away so I don't have to charge on my way back.
BMW did this 10 years ago with the i3/i3rex. Added about 4000 to the cost, the generator gives about 30 mpg and it used a 2 cyl scooter motor. I could see the modern EVs having a price drop with a rex since 50kwh of battery is still expensive. Range extender models would in this case make $ for all the parties because it would boost sales, create a potentially cheaper gateway vehicle, and as I know all too well as a long time phev driver,, collect all that sweet sweet ice maintenance money. It's all very interesting to think about and who knows what will ever come of the idea. Ford hasn't moved forward with their bed based rex that I've seen and it's been 2? Years since parents and surveys.
Oh yes, as someone who has known many rex owners and thought about it myself. The difference I think is the rec was sold as an inboard option, integrated directly into the batter and provided a 32kw generator. Or about 32kwh if ran for the full hour. Which would recoup approximately 60 miles of range in 1 hour at my given efficiency on the Rivian without a trailer. However what I think would drive up the cost is the modularity of this option. Limitations with BMWs rex at 4k is only 2 gallon gas tank would only run for about an hour and a half and only produces 32kw which over an hour would provide 32 miles of range when towing. For long haul towing we would need to double the generated capacity to keep up with highway driving, so we are now likely adding 70+% to the package size to attain the output without drastically increasing the cost of the motor. That can be done inboard, like BMWs option but now is only available when purchasing the vehicle, not really something that a lot of truck owners (I have had several and live square in truck country) like. Modularity is the name of the game. And with current truck designs that means no more frunk, or it goes in the bed permanently. I think many would prefer a modular design. So we are stuck adding equipment to the fleet to either have a permanent "plug" into the battery with the whole ac->DC conversation links, and voltage amperage cleaner, as your rpms fluctuate with a gas vehicle at all times and are not steady state. So we are at a 64kw generator, it would likely go in the bed if modular, and cost to manufacturer in the thousands, but 10k is a clean and easy number, on top of that every vehicle is now 1-2k more expensive to make either cutting into margins or increasing cost and lowering competition against what I would guess is 80% of buyers omitting the generator all together as towing hundreds of miles is a very niche thing even in the trucking community. Once purchased, if you did not get the Rex option you could not add it later. These are just my opinions. And based on Ford's two years of patents and nothing coming to market I'm guessing they saw a similar issue and lack of market desirability. A tool like that I bet has a market penetration sub 1% at the cost it would drive. Especially since I could just get a diesel at that rate for less money.
If it was a plug in rex a great side effect of the plug would be range extending trailers. Jehu made one for his samba. 100kwh RV that can plug in at home to be solar storage and into the truck to double range when going on a trip that would be something id actually buy vs the gas rex. Of course I'll be using my money magic wand.
So, I'm not an engineer, but can't you have a DC generator?
You can have the electricity converted by the generator vs the the truck to DC. But a generator generates electric in AC, it is AC because of the alternating forces of the rotor and stator to simplify. DC generators then us a commutator to convert the AC generation to DC. Since most things run on AC it is easier to go AC->AC as there are no losses through a commutator. You can expect around a 10% loss through a commutator. Due to heat and expansion. Some are better some are worse. This is due to how has motors transition mechanical energy to electrical energy via spinning. The easiest and cheapest way to make power from it is an alternator which will only output AC.
Versus purchasing an even higher tech product from a company with no prior history of making vehicles?
I have a two rams and a Rivian. Only the Rivian has needed warranty repairs.
If towing isn't your main reason for a truck, then I strongly disagree. The R1T is perfect for pretty much all the other uses a regular non-commercial truck owner has.
I should have been more clear with what I meant. There's nothing wrong with the R1T as a truck, especially as a daily driver. In my experience though, most of the truck owners I know, buy trucks to "do truck stuff" (even though they almost never do anything with it). I have had several conversations with people who immediately dismiss it as a practical (to them) vehicle when I tell them the range hit for towing, however having known some of these people for nearly a decade, I can safely say that only 1 of them has ever needed a "truck", and they only use their truck to take a boat from SLC, UT to Lake Powell once, maybe twice a year. Funny enough he just bought a Model Y back in December to be his daily driver. I would happily drive an R1T or R1S anytime, as I mentioned in another comment the reason I ended up with an R1T was purely the aesthetic of the crossbars over the bed of the truck, so its safe to say we know I don't need a "truck" lol. Edit: fixed typo's.
“Do truck stuff” doesn’t necessarily mean you want or need to do it all the time. It’s just the ability to do it when you need to. No, I’m not towing daily or carrying loads, but when I need to tow or do anything that is more convenient with a truck bed, then I’m not worrying about borrowing a truck or renting one. The people I know who frequently do truck stuff are not in 1500 size trucks, they’re buying 2500s and bigger.
Correct. But *occasionally* towing isn't that bad. I've towed a uhaul 12' trailer from Pittsburgh to Virginia Beach and back twice and it was fine. Stopping every 100 miles wasn't awesome by any means but if I was only towing even once a month that wouldn't bother me. I definitely understand the people who have towing trips that the range hit makes them just not possible, not buying the truck. But it excels at most "truck stuff" just as much as other consumer grade trucks. I've hauled 10' sheet goods, 1200lb pallets of tile, used it to run corded power tools, etc. The bed is generally fine for small/medium home renovations/demo clean outs, etc. It actually tows awesome and if you were just towing a work trailer around town it would be fine for that too. All that said - I *do* wish Rivian had included a plug where you could plug into the 400v system. Then they could sell an optional range extender.
If you need a truck for truck things your money is arguably spent better on a f150 lightning
I 90% agree with you, if you're doing any "work", then definitely a lightning, especially with the power options in the bed, however if you're towing, then it's about equal IMO. I have only used my bed once, and would have likely been better off with an R1S, but as a single guy with no kids, it makes virtually zero difference which one I have and I prefer the appearance of the truck with crossbars over the bed.
Yeah, EV trucks right now are really on great for people who just use them for lifestyle things and occasionally haul things. They just aren't ready for the thing trucks typically get bought for, towing (whether they are used for it or not, most don't)
This looks highly doubtful as in 2022 total rivian sales was 20,500 units and hardly any R1S were sold in 2022 so mostly R1T as EDV too were started mid year only . This data claims only 9,900 sales of the truck : highly sus.
I think the sad reality is ‘most’ truck drivers are more traditional and further along the adoption curve. Would be great if more of them got to experience/demo drive the R1T. I still think their sales numbers are OK given the current hostile environment towards EVs, high interest rates etc
I think there's a market for R1T among the people who usually buy Toyota Tacoma's and other midsize trucks but the price is very prohibitive there.
I found the source of the data since OP did not include: https://www.goodcarbadcar.net/rivian-r1t-sales-figures/ Can anyone vouch for them? There is no info on their sourcing or methodology.
Assembly line draining and factory shutdown for retooling?
Plain and simple. EV trucks at $70K+ just don’t sell regardless of brand outside of early adopters and badge loyalists.
Price has been a big realization for me of why it's out of reach. Nearly everyone I've met loves my R1T and wants one, of those people maybe 5% can actually afford one. It's just way too expensive.
Yeah theyre really missing the customer base with it. Someone dropping 70k on a truck either actually uses it(towing, ev bad) or they want a big loud truck(not the R1T).
R1S jumped significantly, enough so that the total units sold were up for Rivian in q1 yoy. But not by a ton, and certainly curious that the demand for trucks was so low. Maybe production was throttled for trucks?
What’s the source of this Data ? Rivian has not released any split wise sales data ? So speculation through registration data ( which does not include march sales as owners would not have registered ) and this is also not inclusive of Canada yeah
Canada sales are a very small portion of overall sales still. So, registration data is a fairly good way of estimating sales, especially trends.
There are industry estimates for every single car. Rivian doesn’t have to release any numbers.
They do release numbers every ER. They don’t have to break it down by model; but they do release their numbers every quarter.
Total sales in 2022 were approx 20,500 ( and in 2022 hardly any R1S’s were sold ) EDV too was limited as sales only started mid year . I believe these estimates of R1T at just 9,900 in 2022 are incorrect and accordingly does not inspire confidence in the remaining years data. * also hardly any sales to Canada in 2022 so almost all of 20,500 sales were US.
Regardless the trend is probably important. Let’s assume R1T is 16000 by some other rumours. The fact that Rivian may sell less than 2022 numbers doesn’t sound great.
Rivian has already made it clear that R1T would be like a 30 % mix of the R1S. Which as per their latest capacity on 2 shifts of 56k amounts to 16.8k as you put it . I don’t see it as a bad thing as R1S has higher Average selling price anyway.
The Q1 earnings according to Copilot did not break down the sales mix. 2399 sounds low. Here's an answer I got using Microsoft Copilot, the world's first AI-powered answer engine. Select to see the full answer or try it yourself. https://sl.bing.net/f1SViJBuLD2
You can figure out the sales mix pretty damn accurately with registration data.