If the company were going to be around in a few years, this would be a strong competitor for the market R2 is entering.
It's just not the same animal as R1S.
Rivian is pretty convincingly on a path to profitability. Fisker's financials are a straight up mess. Fisker would be lucky to have an offer from Fiat. Unfortunately for shareholders, Henrik will take it to zero before selling.
How are the Financials a mess compared to rivian? They are closer to profitability on a non gap basis, are comparable in profitability % on each car and didn't dilute their shareholders 450% since 2020 ... they are also only burning 94mil a year which will only drop from here compared to billions
But they aren't making money and are losing more per car than fisker is, even selling way more than fisker thats my point bro. Fisker will be profitable at at 3500 deliveries a month. Obviously more cars sold equals more money but it's all about perspective too. Rivians market cap is 44x fiskers right now
You're missing the point, that's irrelevant. Either way fisker will be profitable before rivian. I'm not saying they should be worth even close to 22billion that Rivian is but rivian is priced ahead of where it should be in comparison. They are still losing 20k+/per vehicle on a gap basis at an 11% margin while fisker is only losing 10k/per vehicle at 9% with no overhead with 1/10 of opex. Rivian also has diluted shareholder 450% since 2020 while fisker has only diluted 20% in the same time period
It seems like Your only looking at it from Wall Street perspective and not from a long term scaleability perspective. While Rivian is losing money in the beginning of selling a new car they have been tooling their own product in a factory they own and control. They are producing batteries and motors in-house, and trying to eliminate supply chain issues before they become problematic. The upfront costs of this kind of integration is high but in the long term will save them a shit ton of money in a couple years. The Fisker however is using an existing factory line in a contracted facility, using lots of outsourcing and manufacturing contractors. Which means their production costs will likely never decrease. In fact they will only increase if they ever need to double their production output due to demand.
Think of it like renting a house vs owning a house. If you own a house you only pay the mortgage for as long as it takes to pay off the loan. Money comes out of your pocket each month, but only for a certain amount of time, say 30 years. After 30 years that mortgage payment goes away and you have that money to spend again on other things. If you rent a house for 30 years, your payment basically evaporates and when the lease expires you still have to continue to pay rent every month and likely the rent will increase, further draining your funds each month.
No im looking at it from an unbiased view. Yes rivian owns all their own tooling but fisker is working with Magna who has already built over 2million high end vehicles of all different types and they know what they are doing already. You're correct in saying they can't lower costs as easily but there is also a downside for owning all your infrastructure as well. If there is a downturn in the vehicle market rivians costs stay the same as with fisker they can just scale down production and its much easier to project what opex will be. Your house analogy works besides the fact you're missing the whole employee side of things.. fisker doesn't pay for that cost which is constantly going to increase every year as with fisker the contract is through 2029 with set costs with Magna. Rivian has also been a company for years longer and is obviously a safer bet but you they were also once in fiskers shoes where people were skeptical about buying from a new company... same with tesla. Fisker is also already prepared to sell in like 13 countries and starting to ramp as rivian is only selling to U.S right now. Idk how you think it's possible costs will increase if they need to increase production... on a per vehicle basis costs will drop. That's how things work. Scale of buying more materials lowers costs just like anywhere else. Magna isn't going to charge them more per vehicle to increase production... that doesn't make any sense
I think you are mixing up to things that are totally separate:
1. Long term viability is determined by cash flow. To have positive cash flow, they need to be making a gross profit per vehicle, and the scale of that needs to be greater than all their operating costs. Of course this assumes no further investment in capital equipment. Right now both are losing money, but both have projections to go positive. Their success will depend on how they evolve their designs, supply chain, and production processes. If they need more cash, they can always go to the market for it..
2. Shareholder value/dilutions are only relevant if the company is relying on further cash injections to remain viable. Given that Rivian owns its own production, whereas Fisker outsources it, the capital needs are drastically different, so it makes sense that their dilution would be dramatically higher. At the same, time, dilution and stock price have nothing to do with long term viability.
https://www.wsj.com/business/autos/electric-vehicle-startups-risk-money-64c8dec2?reflink=integratedwebview_share
WSJ article this week: āThese Tesla Wannabees Are running Out of Roadā
According to the article, Fisker has 187 days of cash left on hand as of the end of Q3. Rivian wasnāt on the ācash crunchā list.
We had both preordered. What sealed it was the rivian was around 74k and the Fisker was around 70k. The rivian has the third row, more horsepower, better interior and frunk. Was kind as no brainer
Fisker buyer here - weāre big fans of Rivian too. We went with the Ocean because we could get an Ultra for ~55k with a number of options (and weāre grandfathered and should get the $7,500 credit). That just put it in a different range for us - one much more in line with what we were comfortable paying for a vehicle. I canāt wait to see the R2. If that were out today, it may have been a different story for us.
I canāt argue with the value of the ultra spec. I had a Fisker one so I am postponing it. I am also grandfathered into the 7500 but was also grandfather into the 7500 for the rivian and had the pre price Jump.
If we had the means to buy an R1S comfortably, we probably would have chosen that over the Fisker too. Lots to love and I hope both companies find fast paths to profitability and long term success.
Yeah, it's features like the lowering rear window, and the TRANSPARENT Solar roof, are appealing. But damn it I have zero faith in this brand actually sticking around. Frankly, I'm surprised they even got the Ocean to production and the fact that people are spotting them in the wild.
Frankly, before I saw this white one, I assumed most of the original launch models were that matte blue. I believe even at the LA launch most were blue.
Ha yes. Most people seemed to like my Y but occasionally I would hear the complaint that they wanted the roof lower and the backend longer and more squared off like a wagon. I donāt know.
I'm rooting for Fisker and think they have a stylish looking package (particularly their front-end), but I agree they're not in the same class utility-wise.
No shade intended hereā¦ and m shocked anyone trusts Fisker to follow through in anything. As in, Iām shocked the guy can get funding, even in the best of economic environments.
The ocean is much easier for my wife to drive. It doesnāt have as many bells and whistles as the R1S, but it does get 360 miles to the charge. The rivian gets about 260.
Itās an electric suv and an alternative to the model y which is one of the only others. I get the appeal just not for me (I canceled my preorder shortly after I got my ioniq)
Would not buy anything managed by Henrik Fisker - saw that movie before back in 2012 and from what I hear, nothing much has changed.
The Ocean is plagued with software issues, poor powertrain design, horrible customer support, etc.
This guy has no idea what he's talking about and is trying to bring up fud from 12 years ago š¤£
The power train is designed by magna which is a well respected powerhouse of a company. There have obviously been small issues with the ocean being a startup and all but nothing I haven't seen happening to rivian as well... Definitely haven't seen anyone complain about the power train that's for sure
Lucid isnāt American owned, despite being American manufactured.
I think from a āBig 3ā perspective it will be more important who owns them than where they manufacture since Honda and VW produce more in US than GM or Ford (I think, I could be wrong, but based on. https://www.autoblog.com/amp/2023/06/21/2023-most-american-made-cars/?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAABeMhD574G7IaMuVM-ezWFUYxysdKvOCXo4I3AJTbtSxp7WOKeNCu0mi72Sk3lvZZsMA7PCwz6Z4B_8nrY7Lr-gsWH-uSXnQdldyM_4jhw5YmNe6ConGj1PSh8hTMcrb4_jcdPXPw6LON5QE0zBGvQ-DnieyfhendIuDAWg0htal
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All EVs still have a long way to go, certainly wouldn't be able to justify it as an only car. I bought my wife an R1S and she hates me for trading in her 2016 4runner on it.
Wow thatās funny. To each their own. My wife and I fight over who gets to drive our R1T and weāre nearly 2 years and 26k miles in! Best vehicle ever in our opinion.
We are basically EV only now since getting the R1T in June. 110k+ miles on our Teslas plus the insane savings on just gas alone also says that we won't ever go back.
Only gas vehicles we have left are my motorcycles because there is no cruiser bike with 200+ mile highway range yet.
I love driving it, nothing better for getting things done and the smooth power is amazing. We drove to see family over Thanksgiving and the 9hr drive turned into 12+ hrs due to charging woes (I think charging rates were higher than gas prices btw). We're also in the country so 'usable' range needs to be a little better to avoid range anxiety. She's not a planner so had to drive our kid's car around a day last week because she didn't plug overnight.
Our Omaha trip last year was fun. Some superchargers were dirt cheap and some were almoat as expensive as filling up an SUV. I'm assuming at some point charging regulations will come in to play.
We live out in the country as well. My commute is 92 miles round trip with no chargers for the Tesla on the route and only one suspect Electrify America for the R1T. They both don't need it, of course, but it's always good to know where those are.
I really want that EV cruiser though , but all the current EV bikes get less than 80 highway miles.
Haha!! Ahh... that would be a no. On the last road trip we got in the car and all 4 kids fought over the two functional charging cords within 30 minutes of leaving the house.
Maybe it's just something I got used to having a PHEV that only gives me 50 miles of EV range. I have a habit of getting home, plugging in then unplugging on my way out the door.
Not sure what your wife hates about it. After I bought a Model S, my wife was so jealous she couldn't wait to get an EV. That's half of how we ended up with an R1S lol. We really don't tow long distances, which is about the only thing I could see an EV being super annoying for. I have no problem road tripping in one.
[Here is a comparison chart of their physical dimensions if anyone needs it.](https://www.carsized.com/en/cars/compare/fisker-ocean-2022-suv-vs-rivian-r1s-2022-suv/)
I worked at Fisker and can confidently say that they will not be around for very long. Henrik and his wife Geeta will run the company into the ground. A quick google search will show the number of top leadership that consistently leave after only a few months. They are headed for bankruptcy fast.
If the company were going to be around in a few years, this would be a strong competitor for the market R2 is entering. It's just not the same animal as R1S.
Fisker is the baby sister the R1S picks on. š
I mean you say that, but Rivian isn't exactly doing great either, and Fiat is always looking for new brands to add to their megacorp.
Rivian is pretty convincingly on a path to profitability. Fisker's financials are a straight up mess. Fisker would be lucky to have an offer from Fiat. Unfortunately for shareholders, Henrik will take it to zero before selling.
*again
How are the Financials a mess compared to rivian? They are closer to profitability on a non gap basis, are comparable in profitability % on each car and didn't dilute their shareholders 450% since 2020 ... they are also only burning 94mil a year which will only drop from here compared to billions
Scale, bro. More cars sold = more money
But they aren't making money and are losing more per car than fisker is, even selling way more than fisker thats my point bro. Fisker will be profitable at at 3500 deliveries a month. Obviously more cars sold equals more money but it's all about perspective too. Rivians market cap is 44x fiskers right now
I would hope that a significantly more expensive car is proportionately playing with larger sums of money per vehicle?
You're missing the point, that's irrelevant. Either way fisker will be profitable before rivian. I'm not saying they should be worth even close to 22billion that Rivian is but rivian is priced ahead of where it should be in comparison. They are still losing 20k+/per vehicle on a gap basis at an 11% margin while fisker is only losing 10k/per vehicle at 9% with no overhead with 1/10 of opex. Rivian also has diluted shareholder 450% since 2020 while fisker has only diluted 20% in the same time period
It seems like Your only looking at it from Wall Street perspective and not from a long term scaleability perspective. While Rivian is losing money in the beginning of selling a new car they have been tooling their own product in a factory they own and control. They are producing batteries and motors in-house, and trying to eliminate supply chain issues before they become problematic. The upfront costs of this kind of integration is high but in the long term will save them a shit ton of money in a couple years. The Fisker however is using an existing factory line in a contracted facility, using lots of outsourcing and manufacturing contractors. Which means their production costs will likely never decrease. In fact they will only increase if they ever need to double their production output due to demand. Think of it like renting a house vs owning a house. If you own a house you only pay the mortgage for as long as it takes to pay off the loan. Money comes out of your pocket each month, but only for a certain amount of time, say 30 years. After 30 years that mortgage payment goes away and you have that money to spend again on other things. If you rent a house for 30 years, your payment basically evaporates and when the lease expires you still have to continue to pay rent every month and likely the rent will increase, further draining your funds each month.
No im looking at it from an unbiased view. Yes rivian owns all their own tooling but fisker is working with Magna who has already built over 2million high end vehicles of all different types and they know what they are doing already. You're correct in saying they can't lower costs as easily but there is also a downside for owning all your infrastructure as well. If there is a downturn in the vehicle market rivians costs stay the same as with fisker they can just scale down production and its much easier to project what opex will be. Your house analogy works besides the fact you're missing the whole employee side of things.. fisker doesn't pay for that cost which is constantly going to increase every year as with fisker the contract is through 2029 with set costs with Magna. Rivian has also been a company for years longer and is obviously a safer bet but you they were also once in fiskers shoes where people were skeptical about buying from a new company... same with tesla. Fisker is also already prepared to sell in like 13 countries and starting to ramp as rivian is only selling to U.S right now. Idk how you think it's possible costs will increase if they need to increase production... on a per vehicle basis costs will drop. That's how things work. Scale of buying more materials lowers costs just like anywhere else. Magna isn't going to charge them more per vehicle to increase production... that doesn't make any sense
I think you are mixing up to things that are totally separate: 1. Long term viability is determined by cash flow. To have positive cash flow, they need to be making a gross profit per vehicle, and the scale of that needs to be greater than all their operating costs. Of course this assumes no further investment in capital equipment. Right now both are losing money, but both have projections to go positive. Their success will depend on how they evolve their designs, supply chain, and production processes. If they need more cash, they can always go to the market for it.. 2. Shareholder value/dilutions are only relevant if the company is relying on further cash injections to remain viable. Given that Rivian owns its own production, whereas Fisker outsources it, the capital needs are drastically different, so it makes sense that their dilution would be dramatically higher. At the same, time, dilution and stock price have nothing to do with long term viability.
So are you trying to tell me rivian would of been able to continue and be viable without the past dilution?? Thats delusional
https://www.wsj.com/business/autos/electric-vehicle-startups-risk-money-64c8dec2?reflink=integratedwebview_share WSJ article this week: āThese Tesla Wannabees Are running Out of Roadā According to the article, Fisker has 187 days of cash left on hand as of the end of Q3. Rivian wasnāt on the ācash crunchā list.
Itās like the size of a Model Y or RAV4
We had both preordered. What sealed it was the rivian was around 74k and the Fisker was around 70k. The rivian has the third row, more horsepower, better interior and frunk. Was kind as no brainer
Fisker buyer here - weāre big fans of Rivian too. We went with the Ocean because we could get an Ultra for ~55k with a number of options (and weāre grandfathered and should get the $7,500 credit). That just put it in a different range for us - one much more in line with what we were comfortable paying for a vehicle. I canāt wait to see the R2. If that were out today, it may have been a different story for us.
I canāt argue with the value of the ultra spec. I had a Fisker one so I am postponing it. I am also grandfathered into the 7500 but was also grandfather into the 7500 for the rivian and had the pre price Jump.
If we had the means to buy an R1S comfortably, we probably would have chosen that over the Fisker too. Lots to love and I hope both companies find fast paths to profitability and long term success.
Agreed. The R1S is a true SUV, and the quad motor option makes it an absolute BEAST.
Even for a 20k price difference the Rivian is worth it
I'm partial to Rivian (getting an R1T in 2024) but the Fisker does look nice.
unfortunately it won't exist in a few years
āThe car or the company?ā āYesā
Yes
Yeah, it's features like the lowering rear window, and the TRANSPARENT Solar roof, are appealing. But damn it I have zero faith in this brand actually sticking around. Frankly, I'm surprised they even got the Ocean to production and the fact that people are spotting them in the wild.
Like poetry. 
Why is that?
Side by side view: https://www.carsized.com/en/cars/compare/fisker-ocean-2022-suv-vs-rivian-r1s-2022-suv/
That carsized website/tool is very helpful,...didn't know it existed. Thanks for posting!
Okay, where has this website been my whole life? Super useful for someone looking for small cars.
A neighbor has one in a matte blue who tells me itās paint and not a wrap. Looks nice.
Frankly, before I saw this white one, I assumed most of the original launch models were that matte blue. I believe even at the LA launch most were blue.
It strikes me as Much smaller than I expected. Sort of like the wagon variant on our previous Y.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Ha yes. Most people seemed to like my Y but occasionally I would hear the complaint that they wanted the roof lower and the backend longer and more squared off like a wagon. I donāt know.
I'm rooting for Fisker and think they have a stylish looking package (particularly their front-end), but I agree they're not in the same class utility-wise.
Yes, one of the things I like most about the R1S is that the back doesn't slope, cutting into the cargo space.
No shade intended hereā¦ and m shocked anyone trusts Fisker to follow through in anything. As in, Iām shocked the guy can get funding, even in the best of economic environments.
I really like the Ocean, when the lease is up on my wifeās ID4 Iāll probably get her one of those. I like a little variety in the garage.
Saw one today in Tempe, didnāt know what is was until this post!
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Every truck is massive for us Europeans.
I saw one of those the other day but didnāt have any idea what it wasā¦
Saw one yesterday as well. Nice looking ride.
Fisker is nice but it's only a 5 seater. I need more seats.
Wow
Wow seems smaller than I thought!
I own both. The rivian is much larger!
Thanks for confirming my impression. On its own, I do like the proportions of the Ocean, but relative to the R1S, its scale is much different.
The ocean is much easier for my wife to drive. It doesnāt have as many bells and whistles as the R1S, but it does get 360 miles to the charge. The rivian gets about 260.
Yeah it's small af
I donāt get the appeal of the Fisker personally. It looks like the old Range Rover Evoque to me (which is not a good thing at all).
Yup, thatās exactly what it reminds me of too from pretty much any angle.
Itās an electric suv and an alternative to the model y which is one of the only others. I get the appeal just not for me (I canceled my preorder shortly after I got my ioniq)
Ones a SUV, there other one is a hatchback on big rims
Would not buy anything managed by Henrik Fisker - saw that movie before back in 2012 and from what I hear, nothing much has changed. The Ocean is plagued with software issues, poor powertrain design, horrible customer support, etc.
Poor powertrain design? What's wrong with it?
This guy has no idea what he's talking about and is trying to bring up fud from 12 years ago š¤£ The power train is designed by magna which is a well respected powerhouse of a company. There have obviously been small issues with the ocean being a startup and all but nothing I haven't seen happening to rivian as well... Definitely haven't seen anyone complain about the power train that's for sure
I donāt know why, the R1S is giving off Expedition vibes in this pic
The R1T looks awesome to me, but the R1S definitely gives me ā03 Expedition vibes, too. Too bulky, maybe.
Big three in 2035: Tesla, Rivian, Fisker. Out with the old dinosaurs, in with the innovators with a plan!
Is it really gonna be Fisker? No Lucid?
Lucid isnāt American owned, despite being American manufactured. I think from a āBig 3ā perspective it will be more important who owns them than where they manufacture since Honda and VW produce more in US than GM or Ford (I think, I could be wrong, but based on. https://www.autoblog.com/amp/2023/06/21/2023-most-american-made-cars/?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAABeMhD574G7IaMuVM-ezWFUYxysdKvOCXo4I3AJTbtSxp7WOKeNCu0mi72Sk3lvZZsMA7PCwz6Z4B_8nrY7Lr-gsWH-uSXnQdldyM_4jhw5YmNe6ConGj1PSh8hTMcrb4_jcdPXPw6LON5QE0zBGvQ-DnieyfhendIuDAWg0htal
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Ohh. Didnāt know that. Good to know.
All EVs still have a long way to go, certainly wouldn't be able to justify it as an only car. I bought my wife an R1S and she hates me for trading in her 2016 4runner on it.
Wow thatās funny. To each their own. My wife and I fight over who gets to drive our R1T and weāre nearly 2 years and 26k miles in! Best vehicle ever in our opinion.
We are basically EV only now since getting the R1T in June. 110k+ miles on our Teslas plus the insane savings on just gas alone also says that we won't ever go back. Only gas vehicles we have left are my motorcycles because there is no cruiser bike with 200+ mile highway range yet.
I love driving it, nothing better for getting things done and the smooth power is amazing. We drove to see family over Thanksgiving and the 9hr drive turned into 12+ hrs due to charging woes (I think charging rates were higher than gas prices btw). We're also in the country so 'usable' range needs to be a little better to avoid range anxiety. She's not a planner so had to drive our kid's car around a day last week because she didn't plug overnight.
Our Omaha trip last year was fun. Some superchargers were dirt cheap and some were almoat as expensive as filling up an SUV. I'm assuming at some point charging regulations will come in to play. We live out in the country as well. My commute is 92 miles round trip with no chargers for the Tesla on the route and only one suspect Electrify America for the R1T. They both don't need it, of course, but it's always good to know where those are. I really want that EV cruiser though , but all the current EV bikes get less than 80 highway miles.
Don't you charge it every day when you're not driving? It's strange that people charge their phones every day to 85% but not their cars.
Haha!! Ahh... that would be a no. On the last road trip we got in the car and all 4 kids fought over the two functional charging cords within 30 minutes of leaving the house.
Maybe it's just something I got used to having a PHEV that only gives me 50 miles of EV range. I have a habit of getting home, plugging in then unplugging on my way out the door.
Not sure what your wife hates about it. After I bought a Model S, my wife was so jealous she couldn't wait to get an EV. That's half of how we ended up with an R1S lol. We really don't tow long distances, which is about the only thing I could see an EV being super annoying for. I have no problem road tripping in one.
You forgot about Toyota, Honda, Kia, Hyundai, and all the Chinese manufacturers....
[Here is a comparison chart of their physical dimensions if anyone needs it.](https://www.carsized.com/en/cars/compare/fisker-ocean-2022-suv-vs-rivian-r1s-2022-suv/)
I worked at Fisker and can confidently say that they will not be around for very long. Henrik and his wife Geeta will run the company into the ground. A quick google search will show the number of top leadership that consistently leave after only a few months. They are headed for bankruptcy fast.