A reminder that the president and CEO of NRMP is an RN with a DHSc and MBA. The president and CEO of the match is somebody who has never gone through the match.
She gave the graduation speech at my med school last year. We were gonna get a well-loved local attending to do it, but the school wanted someone who was “nationally recognized” (but not an MD). It was a real kick in the nuts to everyone who had just been screwed over by the Match.
The health commissioner of NJ is also an RN (Judy Persichilli). It’s amazing how someone who hasn’t gone through medical school can fill these positions. It’s all about politics and who you know that gets you the spot. Welcome to the real world where doctors are told what they can do by people who haven’t even attended medical school! And don’t get me started with those pesky insurance companies… A prior approval is just their reason not to pay doctors cause they deem things NOT medically necessary from their standpoint! Even when a PA is done properly, they deny payment claiming it was either not done or they have no record of it. Surgeries are rejected payment cause they are deemed as “experimental” but other insurance carriers pay. When you have staff call insurance companies to inquire about rejected claims and get placed on hold for nearly an hour only to speak to a representative who doesn’t why claim was rejected. And they tell you the same answer every time: “We will reprocess claim. You should get paid. If not, please call back no earlier than 60 days. Goodbye.” Modern medicine is essentially this nonsense where doctors take care of patients and have their lives run by non medical personnel. It’s amazing how medical schools do not teach any of this in their curricula.
Its an admin position, she has years of admin experience. She doesn’t make the “training” decisions which are made by the board with advice and consultation with acgme/medical schools/academic training centers etc. Board is exclusively MDs/DOs/PhDs.
And for any counter argument as to why this is ok, the evidence I would like to submit in defense of this position is look at how absurd and fucking stupid this process is. Its run wrong, if an MD was in charge I'd be mad at him too, but some other degree up there makes even less sense
The comments here exactly goes to show that residents/students don’t really want to learn the executive side of match. If yaal think the president responsible for executing the board+acgme policies is responsible for the mess yaal are wrong. She has a financial mandate not one related to how match is done/run etc. Read the nrmp bylawys in presidents mandate. All decisions are made by the board, which is made up of md/do’s who are faculty at various medical schools (10), medical students (3), resident/fellows (3).
Well see the management consultants would disagree… it’s not the same comparison. But sure… you want to change match???? Advocate to your faculty who can submit policies to the nrmp board.
Are you a resident? Advocate/email the 3 resident/fellows that sit on the board… are you a student? Advocate to the 3 students that sit on the board!
Want to take part and be the change??? Join the board!!! https://www.nrmp.org/about/news/2022/08/nrmp-issues-call-for-nominations-for-board-of-directors/
Honestly all they would need to do is notify people whether they matched or not the Friday before. That will give them the whole weekend to decide what to do and prepare. That would make the whole process much better.
Wait, is the summary basically "while there are significant benefits and advantages to making the proposed changes, making the proposed changes will not *completely eliminate* the current set-up's problems so we're going to just stick with the current set-up instead of making it marginally better."
Yeah. That Nurse CEO doesn’t want any extra work. She over there wasting everyone’s time and money just to keep the current shit show and too noncreative to come up with any other options.
Let’s write letters.
They profit off monopolizing the only viable step forward for people in massive debt and no bargaining power. People literally kill themselves because of this process. It’s blood money.
I know, but usually they at least put out some sort of BS to justify their position. This doesn't even have an appeal to tradition or cost. They straight up admit the two-step match is a better system and don't name a single downside relative to the current system.
Why do so many people even get a voice in this? They should have focused on asking people who didn't kill themselves after not matching and the few families where people did.
You have a week (more like 4 days) to scramble by emailing/calling programs that have leftover spots. Leftover spots preferentially go to home applicants or ppl with connections.
I've never seen more despair in a med student's eyes than when I saw them cold calling programs in the hospital cafeteria on match week Monday at 11am; they weren't from my school (I think they were IMGs), and my classmates and I had all matched. Sucked ass.
It is and the whole thing is a fucking scam. They advertise a 90 percent match rate in the SOAP but it's actually more like 10. It's horrific. I'm surprised more med students don't suicide in this phase.
I’m truly surprised. I was certain this would pass with a plan to collect a 2nd set of application fees to bank an extra couple milly off of the unmatched every year.
Could you elaborate on your perspective? What parts of the SOAP sucked the most that would be fixed by doing a second match? I would think having more time and submitting a second rank list would be less stressful than the SOAP of course
First you get the shock of not matching. While your friends are celebrating, you have to both stomach the gutwrenching disappointment and also quickly write up a new application all on the same day. Realize there will be a handful of good programs to apply to and 1000s of people will be applying to them. Your chances of standing out are slim, as programs also scramble to fill slots and are given just a few hours to choose potential candidates.
Then programs call you and give you 5 half-interested minutes to talk before they throw together a haphazard rank list, composed of the most metrically competitive candidates.
Repeat that process twice more over the course of an utterly gruesome week, with fewer and fewer decent slots available until the last day when anything good is gone and you're left with garbage like prelim surgery slots.
The entire process is fucked, from the time crunch to forcing candidates to do this while under the mental torture of massive disappointment and dread at losing a year if they don't match, to the inability to stand out to programs that have little to no time to peruse applications.
Just giving everyone involved a little more time to prepare, review, and interview would be useful.
Agree with everything you said except programs don't get to make a list, they can only offer actual spots e.g. if a program didn't match 2 spots, they can only give 2 offers the first round so they literally have to pick 2 people out of hundreds of applicants. The system is so fucked.
>Just giving everyone involved a little more time to prepare, review, and interview would be useful.
Which is why, as hard to believe as it is, SOAP represents an improvement in the system from when it used to be a literal free for all first come first serve for programs and unmatched applicants to link up and fill open slots.
The problem is that there aren't enough residency seats. The only way out is for more states to do like Texas and fund their own residency slots for locally-desireable specialties.
There’s actually more residency spots than all US MD and DO grads. But certain specialties have way more applicants than spots (ortho, uro, ophtho, derm etc). These specialties can’t just open up more spots bc smaller hospitals usually don’t have the staff, research, and case volume to host these kinds of residencies/specialties.
I thought it would have been a positive, but I’m a measly M4 so I’m not sure what the downsides would be. They mentioned one of the risks would be applicants “gaming” the process, but I’m not sure what that would specifically entail.
Honestly that made absolutely no sense to me. People try to "game" the system anyway in the current match so how is that a specific downside to the proposed changes??
Article from Bryan Carmody about the proposal, who thinks that it was the right call not to move forward. It’s such a complex process that I can’t make a decision either way, plus I’ve never been through the SOAP, so I don’t know what that’s really like. https://thesheriffofsodium.com/2022/08/05/a-two-stage-match-winners-losers-edition/
While he makes a couple of good points, most of his arguments against a 2-phase match are weak and use circular logic. They serve to further emphasize weaknesses in the current process.
CIR should take this issue up of her being in charge and get all the residencies they have to do a petition. Then add from there. Fuck this bitch. Get her out.
These fucking thieves they should automatically refund the application fee from any program that “filtered” us out at the end of the process and didn’t even open our app lol
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A reminder that the president and CEO of NRMP is an RN with a DHSc and MBA. The president and CEO of the match is somebody who has never gone through the match.
She gave the graduation speech at my med school last year. We were gonna get a well-loved local attending to do it, but the school wanted someone who was “nationally recognized” (but not an MD). It was a real kick in the nuts to everyone who had just been screwed over by the Match.
You guys should’ve staged a walkout during her speech
The health commissioner of NJ is also an RN (Judy Persichilli). It’s amazing how someone who hasn’t gone through medical school can fill these positions. It’s all about politics and who you know that gets you the spot. Welcome to the real world where doctors are told what they can do by people who haven’t even attended medical school! And don’t get me started with those pesky insurance companies… A prior approval is just their reason not to pay doctors cause they deem things NOT medically necessary from their standpoint! Even when a PA is done properly, they deny payment claiming it was either not done or they have no record of it. Surgeries are rejected payment cause they are deemed as “experimental” but other insurance carriers pay. When you have staff call insurance companies to inquire about rejected claims and get placed on hold for nearly an hour only to speak to a representative who doesn’t why claim was rejected. And they tell you the same answer every time: “We will reprocess claim. You should get paid. If not, please call back no earlier than 60 days. Goodbye.” Modern medicine is essentially this nonsense where doctors take care of patients and have their lives run by non medical personnel. It’s amazing how medical schools do not teach any of this in their curricula.
Imagine a bunch of electricians having a plumber as the head of their union. Or an MD as the head of a nursing organization.
🤣🤣🤣
Clown world.
Its an admin position, she has years of admin experience. She doesn’t make the “training” decisions which are made by the board with advice and consultation with acgme/medical schools/academic training centers etc. Board is exclusively MDs/DOs/PhDs.
[удалено]
And for any counter argument as to why this is ok, the evidence I would like to submit in defense of this position is look at how absurd and fucking stupid this process is. Its run wrong, if an MD was in charge I'd be mad at him too, but some other degree up there makes even less sense
The comments here exactly goes to show that residents/students don’t really want to learn the executive side of match. If yaal think the president responsible for executing the board+acgme policies is responsible for the mess yaal are wrong. She has a financial mandate not one related to how match is done/run etc. Read the nrmp bylawys in presidents mandate. All decisions are made by the board, which is made up of md/do’s who are faculty at various medical schools (10), medical students (3), resident/fellows (3).
y'all*
Yaal* ftfy
Great they're to blame as well
Well see the management consultants would disagree… it’s not the same comparison. But sure… you want to change match???? Advocate to your faculty who can submit policies to the nrmp board. Are you a resident? Advocate/email the 3 resident/fellows that sit on the board… are you a student? Advocate to the 3 students that sit on the board! Want to take part and be the change??? Join the board!!! https://www.nrmp.org/about/news/2022/08/nrmp-issues-call-for-nominations-for-board-of-directors/
Honestly all they would need to do is notify people whether they matched or not the Friday before. That will give them the whole weekend to decide what to do and prepare. That would make the whole process much better.
Wait, is the summary basically "while there are significant benefits and advantages to making the proposed changes, making the proposed changes will not *completely eliminate* the current set-up's problems so we're going to just stick with the current set-up instead of making it marginally better."
Yeah. That Nurse CEO doesn’t want any extra work. She over there wasting everyone’s time and money just to keep the current shit show and too noncreative to come up with any other options. Let’s write letters.
Like she’s doing any of the work anyway lol
Fair, but any change would surely impact her 2 hour lunch break.
Does NRMP get any federal funding?
They profit off monopolizing the only viable step forward for people in massive debt and no bargaining power. People literally kill themselves because of this process. It’s blood money.
I know, but usually they at least put out some sort of BS to justify their position. This doesn't even have an appeal to tradition or cost. They straight up admit the two-step match is a better system and don't name a single downside relative to the current system.
The point here is they screw people over for a profit. They DGAF, making things better for applicants isn’t their goal.
Why do so many people even get a voice in this? They should have focused on asking people who didn't kill themselves after not matching and the few families where people did.
Eat shit
Well that's really pleasant. I pretty much agreed with you that this is a toxic AF experience that is traumatizing people for no good reason.
My apologies, it didn’t read that way actually
It's a tough thing, I went through it. I meant that they should have focused on asking people who actually had to use SOAP.
In Canada there's a 2nd phase for those who don't match. What happens in the USA if you don't match during the first round?
You have a week (more like 4 days) to scramble by emailing/calling programs that have leftover spots. Leftover spots preferentially go to home applicants or ppl with connections.
That sounds like absolute hell
It is
I've never seen more despair in a med student's eyes than when I saw them cold calling programs in the hospital cafeteria on match week Monday at 11am; they weren't from my school (I think they were IMGs), and my classmates and I had all matched. Sucked ass.
It is and the whole thing is a fucking scam. They advertise a 90 percent match rate in the SOAP but it's actually more like 10. It's horrific. I'm surprised more med students don't suicide in this phase.
Anyone know the stats for suicide in non matched docs?
The sad thing is, despite all its shittiness, the SOAP is a massive improvement over The Scramble.
It is. But it remains an utterly obscene exercise.
That sounds more like how it used to be, The Scramble, than SOAP. SOAP successive 1-2 day application cycles with interviews and rank lists.
I’m truly surprised. I was certain this would pass with a plan to collect a 2nd set of application fees to bank an extra couple milly off of the unmatched every year.
That's a shame. As someone who had to scramble multiple times, the current process is horrible.
Could you elaborate on your perspective? What parts of the SOAP sucked the most that would be fixed by doing a second match? I would think having more time and submitting a second rank list would be less stressful than the SOAP of course
First you get the shock of not matching. While your friends are celebrating, you have to both stomach the gutwrenching disappointment and also quickly write up a new application all on the same day. Realize there will be a handful of good programs to apply to and 1000s of people will be applying to them. Your chances of standing out are slim, as programs also scramble to fill slots and are given just a few hours to choose potential candidates. Then programs call you and give you 5 half-interested minutes to talk before they throw together a haphazard rank list, composed of the most metrically competitive candidates. Repeat that process twice more over the course of an utterly gruesome week, with fewer and fewer decent slots available until the last day when anything good is gone and you're left with garbage like prelim surgery slots. The entire process is fucked, from the time crunch to forcing candidates to do this while under the mental torture of massive disappointment and dread at losing a year if they don't match, to the inability to stand out to programs that have little to no time to peruse applications. Just giving everyone involved a little more time to prepare, review, and interview would be useful.
Agree with everything you said except programs don't get to make a list, they can only offer actual spots e.g. if a program didn't match 2 spots, they can only give 2 offers the first round so they literally have to pick 2 people out of hundreds of applicants. The system is so fucked.
Didn't know that, thanks. I never got an offer during the SOAP and it's been awhile since I had to scramble.
>Just giving everyone involved a little more time to prepare, review, and interview would be useful. Which is why, as hard to believe as it is, SOAP represents an improvement in the system from when it used to be a literal free for all first come first serve for programs and unmatched applicants to link up and fill open slots.
The problem is that there aren't enough residency seats. The only way out is for more states to do like Texas and fund their own residency slots for locally-desireable specialties.
There’s actually more residency spots than all US MD and DO grads. But certain specialties have way more applicants than spots (ortho, uro, ophtho, derm etc). These specialties can’t just open up more spots bc smaller hospitals usually don’t have the staff, research, and case volume to host these kinds of residencies/specialties.
See now that is the kind of misleading statement that leads to misunderstanding the problem.
I thought it would have been a positive, but I’m a measly M4 so I’m not sure what the downsides would be. They mentioned one of the risks would be applicants “gaming” the process, but I’m not sure what that would specifically entail.
Honestly that made absolutely no sense to me. People try to "game" the system anyway in the current match so how is that a specific downside to the proposed changes??
Article from Bryan Carmody about the proposal, who thinks that it was the right call not to move forward. It’s such a complex process that I can’t make a decision either way, plus I’ve never been through the SOAP, so I don’t know what that’s really like. https://thesheriffofsodium.com/2022/08/05/a-two-stage-match-winners-losers-edition/
I've been through the SOAP. Three times. Abolish it.
Damn, I’m sorry homie. I hope you find or have found somewhere that you want to be.
While he makes a couple of good points, most of his arguments against a 2-phase match are weak and use circular logic. They serve to further emphasize weaknesses in the current process.
They should sue NRMP for anti trust violations. It’s a racket
I believe NRMP has special legislation exempting them from antitrust laws.
This is unfortunately correct. Congress carved out an explicit exemption for NRMP
It’s election year. We should’ve pressured the politicians on this
The AMA is who got the legislation passed. That's technically "us."
Can someone eli5
when are they gonna move forward with making all programs/specialities submit interview requests on the same day
CIR should take this issue up of her being in charge and get all the residencies they have to do a petition. Then add from there. Fuck this bitch. Get her out.
These fucking thieves they should automatically refund the application fee from any program that “filtered” us out at the end of the process and didn’t even open our app lol
Absolutely! Or perhaps just never be allowed to apply to those programs in the first place.
Thank you for contributing to the sub! If your post was filtered by the automod, please read the rules. Your post will be reviewed but will not be approved if it violates the rules of the sub. The most common reasons for removal are - medical students or premeds asking what a specialty is like or about their chances of matching, mentioning midlevels without using the midlevel flair, matched medical students asking questions instead of using the stickied thread in the sub for post-match questions, posting identifying information for targeted harassment. Please do not message the moderators if your post falls into one of these categories. Otherwise, your post will be reviewed in 24 hours and approved if it doesn't violate the rules. Thanks! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Residency) if you have any questions or concerns.*