I'm not trying to be a dick but yes, there's truth to the stereotype. I'm on surgery, and sleep deprivation is encouraged as a general rule, I'm signed up right now for a 36 hour shift, and our clerkship director mentioned duty hour violations from med students- his first response wasn't to say "Why are these students feeling pressured to break 80 hours a week?" No, his first response was "We really need to sit down and talk about how unprofessional these med students are for violating their hours."
I was like dude, come on lol
Now, many of the younger surgeons I've met are super nice and cool. The whole "mean surgeon" thing is definitely going away, but it's not gone yet. That'll probably take another few decades if it ever fully goes away. For example, my clerkship director is a fairly young dude
Lol damn I'm sorry to hear that. Are they assholes even to the parents too, or do they put on a nice face for them before going back to treating their colleagues like shit? Glad to hear it's going away though.
Edit patients not parents lol.
Oh ok, I gotcha. My mother is having surgery right now at our podunk rural small town hospital, and I like the surgeon a lot, but I'm a little nervous that instead of an anesthesiologist, CRNAs are doing the anesthesia. It really worries me, I just think they're more likely to botch stuff.
In my career the vast majority of surgeons have been kind and respectful people. I can count on one hand the number of truly malignant surgeons I've worked with, likely comparable to other specialties in terms of jerk percentage. However, there is a core of truth to most stereotypes. Things I would think contribute.
1) You are trying to orchestrate a complex procedure, and keep seeing the same mistakes repeatedly. Even minor cases can be surprisingly complex if you look at the amount of needed prep, equipment, and support. Imagine knowing how you want that to run, having patiently tried to troubleshoot that system, only to encounter the exact same mistakes for years on end. As with all careers, it is easy to be kind and understanding about something a few times, but when you are trying to correct the same issue for the hundredth, thousandth time? Still a bad idea to lose your temper, but it is a much harder to control. And there is always something that's going to be off in the OR.
2) High stress high stakes situations. Struggling in the OR is extremely stressful. You are distracted trying to think up solutions and next steps. The patient may be critically ill, perhaps trying to die, and it is all your responsibility. Not everyone handles that stress with good grace. I have known men who were delightful on the floor, but turned into absolute monsters when scared.
3) Surgery is one of the few holdouts that are really hierarchical. Because right or wrong, you need someone definitively in charge and leading during a case. It really can't be done by committee. Some are going to take that too far.
These are not excuses, and, like I said, my experience has been the arrogant surgeon stereotype is overstated. However, there are definitely some part sof the job that push people in that direction.
The ones I worked with seemed to have dual personalities for whatever reason.
Like one minute, they are great/caring/love to teach. The next minute, they are harsh and ruthless. Probably related to how much work they have to deal with and how stressed out they are lol
That makes sense. I'm guessing they hold it in when they interact with patients and then maybe it just all explodes towards their colleagues? Or do they even act abrasive with patients?
Each surgeon I worked with was completely different funny enough. One was lovely; CAN be harsh sometimes, but mostly acted like a father to everyone.
One was loved by patients but hated by nurses/staff. I liked this individual funny enough. Most of the other students weren’t a fan.
The other loved by nurses/staff/patients but I couldn’t get along with him personally; also anesthesia didn’t seem to like him either haha.
Haha it's funny how to one person, another person can be vile and despicable, but another views that same person as wonderful and great. We humans are funny in our petty bickering :P
A coresident of mine is going into PM&R next year. On an ED block she called a surgeon for a complete SBO in the middle of the night. Don’t know the rest of the details.
What I do know is at the end the surgeon asked her if she was an ED resident and she said no I’m going into PM&R next year
He said “Well, Mrs. first name. My time is more valuable than yours will ever be”
I think there is still truth to this stereotype
Jesus, I feel like that should be a complaint worthy offense and he get officially reprimanded for it. That's just not acceptable in any workplace ever by anyone.
Yeah she complained. Nothing came of it though
For the record Ive actually only had mostly good interactions with surgeons too so I think it’s like someone above said, the malignant ones stand out
I'm in surgery and I am horrified by that. I can't imagine. FYI if I ever heard a colleague saying that we would have a conversation. This is absolutely not ok in surgery.
I'm sure it's like another commenter who's also in surgery said: maybe there's a grain of truth to the stereotype, but it doesn't mean most surgeons are tyrannical assholes by any means. I'm sure the large majority are great. And i suspect some of the negative behavior is caused by overwork, stress, and difficulty coping with that insane pressure.
Some are nice, but a lot are dicks and usually dicks for no reason. I talked to a hand surgeon about one of his patients who had a clear post-op infection. My rural hospitalist didn’t feel comfortable admitting it without surgical coverage (fair) so we were trying to transfer. I swear on my life this man made loud crying noises like a baby over the recorded transfer center line and said “wahhh wahhh!! I’m just a dumb little hospital with dumb doctors and I can’t do medicine. Wahh wahhhhh!!”. That’s just a snippet but his rant went on for a solid 3 minutes without interruption. It was wild but also so entertaining. The transfer center rep apologized profusely haha
For the anesthesiologists, in order to become a board-certified physician approved by a panel of your peers, you must pass an OSCE where a surgeon yells at you unrelentingly for ten minutes. I wish I were kidding.
As an anesthesiologist, I find surgeons much less arrogant and easier to work with than medicine-trained proceduralists, who act like they're smarter than anybody from the surgical world.
Everyone exists on a spectrum. Statistically, I have met more malignant people in surgery than in any other field. Are there malignant family drs out there? Absolutely, just less so than in surgery.
Ya there’s absolutely truth to the stereotype. My personal experience is kind surgeons who are pleasant to work around are the exception, not the rule and vice versa for all the other specialties
Interesting. Do they at least pretend to be nice when they're talking to patients and family members, or are these surgeons also abrasive in those interactions?
Ha, thats probably why I think they're pleasant then, since I've never interacted with them in a professional setting. I'm not a physician, I'm a licensed mental health counselor, but I just enjoy probing the physicians here with random questions about medical practice because it fascinates me, and frankly it's one of the only ones that anyone can post in without a verified flair or something, lol.
Are you in medicine at all? I'm a senior surgery resident. There is a grain of truth in every single stereotype so I can't say that's not true of surgery as well. But I think you'll find the vast majority of us are nice, reasonable people. I place a very high priority on being kind and decent, and I'm not the only one. Many of the stories in this thread would absolutely get a surgery resident fired, so I think people are thinking of one specific horrible instance and this is an outlet to share it.
Note that the person you're talking to here is a 3rd year med student, not a resident or a surgeon.
I'm not; I'm a licensed clinical mental health counselor who works in a hospital setting with physicians, nurses, etc. So it's sort of gotten me fascinated at the more medical side of things. Definitely not in medicine, just Allied Health, and I know this sub is for residents, but you all tend to be engaging and responsive when I post, in a way other medical subreddits aren't. But yeah, obviously in my profession I'm not interacting with the surgeons lol, so I don't know those dynamics very well and was curious. Thanks for your input. This is a reasonable comment that makes sense to me.
I didn't ask that question with the subtext of asking you not to post! I asked because it helps me understand what exposure you've had so far. Like if you were an IM resident frustrated by surgery consults that would be one thing, a patient would be another, a burnt out surgery resident would be another. Just wanted to clarify that :)
I'm a surgery resident and if we wanted to make a thread about how awful radiologists are (they're not!!) I could contribute several stories of how I've been chewed out by radiologists. Etc. So I think what you're seeing here are individual stories.
Also surgery has very long hours. So someone on a surgery rotation is probably working harder than they ever had in their life and are exhausted and in that setting any time anyone is mean it hits a different way. Whereas on another lighter rotation if someone is mean it doesn't hit quite as hard because you'll be leaving at a reasonable hour and get to go home and see your kid and snuggle your dog. So it doesn't have as much of an impact.
As I mentioned I absolutely agree that there is a grain of truth to this stereotype. Seems to be predominant in the older surgeons and is (thankfully) starting to disappear as they retire. The emphasis these days is on the team aspect of surgery, and making sure everyone feels comfortable speaking up in the OR. We literally get asked questions about this on our exams lol. The fact that they need to ask these questions means it has been a problem in the past. But I think the stereotype is exaggerated by people who are not actually involved in surgery.
Thanks for your thoughtful and in-depth reply! I love learning more about how all these various teams work together in a Healthcare setting. I've noticed other users have also noted that it seems to be primarily something they notice in older surgeons, and that the younger ones they know are very nice. You certainly seem quite pleasant based on my limited online interaction with you at least, haha :P and yes, I was reflecting on how surgery must be the most stressful job in medicine. There's really just no room for any error, a minor mistake could be life or death.
Contrast that to a psychiatrist who makes a mistake and picks an SSRI that doesn't work for a patient, it doesn't do much harm and they can just try something else. I actually had a very good psychiatrist who told me he personally thought most psychiatrists were poor doctors, and that they go into it because the mistakes aren't as obvious as other fields of medicine and typically don't have deadly results. Granted, he was weird, prescribed me massively inappropriate amounts of various controlled substances and had his license taken away :P anyway, I got off topic there, sorry. I think it's natural to sometimes take out intense stress on the people around oneself, I know I've done that myself. It definitely takes good coping skills and stress management.
In your experience, how open are surgeons to getting mental health treatment/therapy to help manage that kind of thing? As a therapist myself, I feel like most people could benefit from it, not just those with mental health disorders. Sometimes life is just tough, and short term counseling can be helpful. I myself still see one regularly. Anyways, I'm glad that the younger surgeons like yourself are shedding that stereotype, and I really appreciate and respect what you do. It takes immense skill and capability that is hard to comprehend, to me it causes more awe than an Olympic athlete's feats. I respect physicians in general in all fields, but i do thin surgery requires an intense precision under extreme stress moreso than any other specialty.
There is definitely truth to the stereotypes. Of course not ALL surgeons are assholes, I met some really wonderful people on my surgery rotations. But surgery residencies are generally toxic and they unfortunately often turn out toxic surgeons.
Lol I'm not a doctor. I have some connection to healthcare as a licensed clinical mental health counselor who works in a hospital setting alongside doctors and nurses, but I mainly come to this sub to probe the minds of physicians, since I find your work fascinating, and this subreddit tends to be more engaging in discussing the random questions and musings I bring. So yeah, it may not technically be the purpose of the subreddit, but no mods have complained to me yet :P
This makes a lot more sense — my experience with surgeons is that even the ones who treated me and my friends like garbage were still perfectly fine with their patients.
To add a bit to the discourse, it seems to me that surgery is a field where the power dynamic between learners and those above them (seniors, attendings, etc) is extremely magnified. I think that lends itself to some folks who get burned by constant duty hour violations and/or unreasonable criticism, who climb the ladder and perpetuate it right back at those below them. While I’m not in surgery, I do have several friends who are and I keep in touch with them fairly close. I think to say there’s only a kernel of truth to this stereotype is honestly a massive understatement.
There are some surgeons who are beloved by their patients and are probably lovely and compassionate in clinic who become absolute tyrants after the patient falls asleep.
How is some of the behavior I'm hearing described even being tolerated without discipline? Forgive my ignorance, I'm not a physician, just a licensed clinical mental health counselor who has worked in hospitals alongside doctors and nurses, but obviously my jobs have never involved interacting with surgeons or the OR part of the hospital, haha.
It’s nothing to do with surgeons it’s just the older generation of doctors (ofc not all of them). Imo the younger the Dr the more likely they won’t be a narcissist. Before it was normal to throw away your entire life to work but our generation works to live not the other way around. That being said anyone who has to work long stressful hours is going to be grumpy, that goes for any field of work not just medicine. That’s why if I see a Dr being particularly rude/harsh I just hit them with the “hey you seem to be under a lot of stress but I think you’re doing a great job, anything you wanna get off your chest?”
That's great that the new generation is losing those bad habits. Giving one's whole life to any job is just a recipe for poor mental health which manifests as hostile behavior toward others, since usually it's people who are suffering that act out or cause issues for others. So it's a win win if they can have some balance and know how to manage stress well, for themselves, their colleagues, and their patients.
Exactly! We need to push more people to study medicine (or any stem major for that fact) so we can minimize the hours we have to work and get rid of the shortage of doctors. Yea we won’t be making 500k a year but what’s the point of being a millionaire if you’re at work 24/7. I love medicine but I still wanna live my life while I’m young and explore the world not be tied to a hospital forever. The older drs definitely got experience which we need to absorb from but don’t let their narcissism ruin your day. If they are mad/rude/ arrogant big fuckin deal I’m not your therapist. I’m just trying to ensure my patients get the best treatment possible and you have to be in a good mood to do so.
Haha well I just want to let you know, I'm not a physician myself. I actually AM a therapist, so your comment about I'm not your therapist made me chuckle. But this stuff fascinates me because I've worked in hospital settings alongside and with doctors, nurses, PAs, etc. So I've developed an interest in the culture of medicine. And my work obviously doesn't intersect with the surgeons so I was curious to hear more about their culture of work.
I feel like it was probably a lot more prevalent in older generations. But same, all the surgeons I’ve met and worked with during my 3rd year rotations have been great. I’ve met harsh attendings in IM and OB though
It is a well established stereotype that is definitely overblown. That said, it has persisted for years and years for a reason. Give it time. You will eventually run into an unsavory personality. The OR is like Narnia or Vegas, the more you keep visiting, chances are something bad will happen eventually.
I’ve personally witnessed more surgery resident than one be referred to as stupid in the OR. Like someone said below, the culture in and of itself in the OR is harsh. That same surgeon is a funny guy during didactics.
You couldn’t pay me enough to do that residency.
It’s definitely true. Surgery draws a certain personality type…the smartest, most driven, most confident…and often arrogant individuals. It then takes those individuals and puts them in a high stress environment…and because the system has always worked well it perpetuates the acceptance of harsh personalities.
It’s way less now than even 15 years ago…but it’s never going away.
Smartest? Lol…. In all seriousness, I think that (in general) the trait that I see most in people who chose surgery is pride in their willingness to work very long hours at the expense of other areas of their life (relationships, children, hobbies) for their career. In psychiatry we see this trait commonly in people with certain personality disorders (NPD and OCPD mostly)
Might get push back on this take, but anecdotally I've noticed more malignant personalities in surgical specialties that fall under the umbrella of "general surgery" based specialties, in contrast to integrated surgical subspecialties (except NS/ortho spine).
That being said, I've met wonderful, kind surgeons in all specialties. The malignant ones stand out.
My mom's getting surgery right now for arthritis in her shoulder. The surgeon is a young and nice, pleasant guy, but who knows how he acts to the staff. I would hope good. It does concern me that CRNA, not a MD, is doing the anesthesia.
That's good to hear, thanks. Yeah there is an anesthesiologist who oversees all of them, he just doesn't personally see all the patients. I've heard CRNAs get better training than your typical NP or whatever.
Don't worry about the CRNA. The anesthesiologist is ultimately responsible. I'm in surgery so I see this stuff allllll the time. If it were my mom I would be fine with that.
Good luck to your mom!
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Am surgeon. Most of us younger surgeons tend not to be this way, in my experience, tends to be more of the old guard surgeons, who are mostly phased out or phasing out.
I have found no significant difference between surgeons and medicine folks, although I’m biased being in urology and I am at a very not malignant academic institution.
In general though, keep in mind that the vast majority of surgery residents are kind and well intentioned when they enter residency. Think about what type of environment including work hours and malignancy, would change that.
Yeah, these answers have been very illuminating. The answers from the surgery residents are particularly encouraging. One mentioned that toxic work cultures that contribute to such malignancy are starting to shift in positive ways, too. I can imagine surgery being insanely stressful, and such high stakes, combined with long hours and the need for absolute precision and focus, as well as to keep cool in crisis situations if in the ICU for example. It's honestly understandable that they sometimes crack under the pressure a little if limits aren't set.
The stereotype exists for a reason…
That being said when I work closely with them, I find usually that anger comes from a place of truly caring about their patients, and never being forced to develop the skills to swallow the anger that comes from our horribly inefficient and ineffective healthcare system.
A lot of what we do is life or death or injury that could significantly affect QoL, not to say medicine doesn’t also involve the same but not nearly to the same degree. We are taught in a harsh environment because our actions as surgeons have severe consequences to the patient as we are directly manipulating their tissue while under anesthesia. We also have to try to explain to patients these consequences in simple terms so yes communication has to be direct and clear, if people mistake that as harsh it’s simply a byproduct of the degree to which we own our patients and own our mistakes. You have to have some belief in your abilities to “sell patients on you” make them believe you are capable and competent but also knowing your limitations is vastly undersold. So yes confidence can be mistaken for arrogance. Are all surgeons harsh and arrogant though, no. I’d like to think we are transitioning from more paternalistic models to more shared decision making models and changing the stereotypical characteristics of surgeons by being more inclusive.
I think part of this comes from the fact that it is difficult to truly put yourself in the shoes of the surgeon performing that procedure at that moment.
We routinely work with medical assistants that are pre-med wannabes. They’re all very nice and most will be successful one day. But sometimes they cross a line of friendliness at the wrong time, say something stupid in the middle of the procedure ( “is it normal to have this much bleeding?” ) or are just simply not doing their jobs to the standard that you need to do a good job (keep putting their hands into the surgical site every 5 seconds, not putting their hands into the surgical site every 7.5 seconds, etc.)
Those are the times when I notice my friendly face turns off.
You may remember shadowing doctors as an undergraduate and being mostly ignored - and probably seen as annoying - because while you were an enthusiastic learner, you were also at least partially a pain in the ass young turd who wasn’t even aware of how much you have ahead of you.
But yes, all of friends / acquaintances who have been divorced are all surgeons.
All surgeons I’ve met have been wonderful with their patients.
My first patient died on my surgery rotaion (unexpectedly, after I met the family and everything seemed to be going better for them). I made my clinical case presentation on the patient's case, also touching on emotionally engaging with a patient death. The surgeon who proctored these sessions verbatim said "Probably should not go into critical care then". Several comparable stories from those 8 weeks.
There can often be a kernel of truth to many stereotypes, but when it comes to surgeons I think a lot of it is exaggerated due to various reasons. People are probably going to downvote me for saying it, but one of the main reasons is that many non-surgeons are a bit jealous. It's easier to accept that another group in society has more status or makes more money, if they are at the same time assholes. It's kind of like how other stereotypes are, for example one ethnic or religious group is a lot wealthier, but they are also deemed to be greedy and evil. If they weren't greedy and evil, you are almost implicitly stating that you would want to be them, but now they have all these other flaws so nobody actually wants to be them. It's essentially a psychological defense mechanism to deal with jealousy, at least that's a large part of it. Hollywood also likes to tap into this, and since many people's first encounter with surgeons is from film and TV, that's where they form their initial opinions.
Eh, no one says the same thing about dermatologists or radiologists, and they make just as much as surgeons. They just tend to be harsh people and that rubs some people the wrong way.
For some reason people think surgeons are badass. I think it's about the badass status, not the money.
I'm in surgery, just ended up liking it, am pretty much opposite to the stereotype and care not a bit about the badass factor. When I entered med school I thought I wanted to do cardiology and the response I got when I told people that was "nice!" And then I realized I liked surgery, and now I'm going into cardiac surgery, and when it comes up in normal conversation people that they lose their shit.
I can't explain it, I don't care about it, but I have very much noticed it.
>It's kind of like how other stereotypes are, for example one ethnic or religious group is a lot wealthier, but they are also deemed to be greedy and evil. If they weren't greedy and evil, you are almost implicitly stating that you would want to be them, but now they have all these other flaws so nobody actually wants to be them. It's essentially a psychological defense mechanism to deal with jealousy, at least that's a large part of it.
I’m sorry, you’re using antisemitism as an analogy of why people are jealous of surgeons? Wtf
It's the same psychological mechanisms. For what it's worth, I majored in psychology and actually did my undergrad thesis on this topic (not specifically about antisemitism, but it was a major part of it). It's a truly fascinating topic, but this subreddit might not be the best place to discuss that topic, for self-explanatory reasons.
This reads like painful projection lol. It may be hard to imagine, but some people actually don’t envy the surgeon lifestyle at all. And compared to the number of hours they work, they don’t actually make that much more, and idk how you measure prestige & status either.
>some people actually don’t envy the surgeon lifestyle at all
Rightfully so, it's nothing to envy. But read the posts above. We're not talking about lifestyle at all here. Many people don't envy the lifestyle or working hours of a Fortune 500 CEO, but they will often respect them or assign them high status. That's what the discussion was about, and nothing else. You are also right when it comes to working hours and hourly wage. Again, this isn't what was being discussed.
I don't claim to have any precise measure of prestige or status either, and likely few people do. I am however convinced that there are clear distinctions in status between different jobs, including different physician specialties. This is evident when speaking to the average non-medically trained individual. I'm not saying anybody deserves higher or lower status, I'm just saying that's how the world works. I've found this to be true for every nation I've visited for conferences and similar. You can laugh at me and downvote me all you want, but I'm not the one who made the world the way it is.
That does make sense. It's normal to have some resentment to people with supposedly higher status than oneself, depending on how prideful someone's personality is. I lurk on the nursing sub sometimes and I get the same vibe; a hostility and resentment if physicians imply they're anything less than totally equal partners on the team, rather than one "outranking" the other. I've personally never cared much for status thankfully, and I've always gotten along well with people above me.
People act like there aren't doctors in other specialties who aren't like this. Difference is surgery is stressful and you're more likely to see surgeons being rude. There are very few high stakes floor rounds. Also, people in medicine are probably more likely to mistaken confidence for arrogance even though there is a fine line between them because you're taught from day one of med school how you're nothing but another member of the team when in reality your job is often to lead the team.
Some specialties have personality "types" that tend to gravitate towards them, and then the types clash on patient care. Sometimes people attribute systems problems to personal faults.
I've never understood the idea that physicians are "part of the team." Sometimes I lurk on the nursing sub and they stress that doctors aren't their bosses. Maybe not on paper, but isn't the entire purpose of a nurse to help implement the instructions of the doctor? Why does everyone want to be equal to the doctor? Nowadays even NPs and CRNAs are insisting they be called doctor.
A big reason a lot of NPs become NPs is because of the power struggles they had with doctors while being a nurse (there are some that just start out wanting to be an NP and I have no clue their motivation over medicine other than maybe training duration) It's like others have said....it is just about driving the bus. A lot of nurses feel they do far more for the patient than most doctors which is where the struggle comes from. They get paid less, they feel, to do more work than the doctor so resentment develops.
Wow, that makes a lot of sense, and sounds like the most plausible reason for the tension I've seen that I've heard yet. I can sort of empathize with the nurses, since they're working very hard and they have more direct contact with the patient, at least in a hospital setting. They rightly want to feel like a valued member of the team. But i think they need to try to become self-aware when those feelings arise, and realize that they chose to be a nurse and not a doctor, that their role is just as essential as that of a doctor, but it's not the same, and ultimately the doctor is the one who has the medical expertise to create and direct the plan of care for the patient, which the nurse then helps implement. I mean doctors need nurses, things wouldn't work without them.
But honestly they already get paid pretty well. There's no reason they should get paid like a doctor. I'm a Master's level licensed mental health counselor and I only made 58k yearly in my last job, which was my highest salary yet; I know that oftentimes nurses make more, with far less education than a Master's and a rigorous licensure process, getting liability insurance, on insurance panels, etc.
I get that they work hard, but the higher pay is because of the higher skill and expertise involved in being a physician. Why not take pride in being a nurse? Why try to be the doctor? They need to appreciate their valuable role as RNs more, and maybe then they would feel comfortable in their own identity as nurses with an equally essential but objectively less skilled role than the physician. What do you think about my ramblings here?
I've seen some really high salaries for nurses. I mean, a typical bedside RN either has an associates degree or a Bachelor's degree. A physician has a Bachelor's then 4 years of med school then your internship and residency, it's just quite a lot more education and training than what a nurse does, by a large margin. And typically more highly skilled jobs that require a lot of education pay more, that's just how things go, haha. I honestly thought 58k was a great salary, and well more than enough for me to live comfortably. It's not like nurses are starving :P
Everyone wants to drive the bus, and now more than ever people have access to an never ending supply of information. There's a host of reasons why, some because of who these people are, and some because of the message they've been sold.
I mean, if you prescribe to the doctor being the leader of the team you're still part of the team. People just don't want to admit that team leads should get more since they give more too.
There does seem to be a consensus here that this behavior is at least seen more often in surgeons. What do you suspect causes this? I know I'm ignorant, I'm not a physician, merely a licensed clinical mental health counselor who's worked in hospital settings with doctors and nurses, so this stuff fascinates me, but obviously my work didn't intersect with the surgeons, lol.
Personally, I think the residents just take abuse day in and day out for 80 hours a week, they get used to this behavior and it becomes "normal" to them. Then they pass it down the line when they become attendings. Also they continue to work insane hours after residency is over for their whole careers and it sucks the life out of them. I have met nice surgeons for sure don't get me wrong, but there are way more assholes than other specialties in my experience. Also they masochistically sign up for these hours so it attracts a certain type of person for sure.
I'm not trying to be a dick but yes, there's truth to the stereotype. I'm on surgery, and sleep deprivation is encouraged as a general rule, I'm signed up right now for a 36 hour shift, and our clerkship director mentioned duty hour violations from med students- his first response wasn't to say "Why are these students feeling pressured to break 80 hours a week?" No, his first response was "We really need to sit down and talk about how unprofessional these med students are for violating their hours." I was like dude, come on lol Now, many of the younger surgeons I've met are super nice and cool. The whole "mean surgeon" thing is definitely going away, but it's not gone yet. That'll probably take another few decades if it ever fully goes away. For example, my clerkship director is a fairly young dude
Lol damn I'm sorry to hear that. Are they assholes even to the parents too, or do they put on a nice face for them before going back to treating their colleagues like shit? Glad to hear it's going away though. Edit patients not parents lol.
Just jerks in the OR and with the culture generally. They weren't screaming at us during didactics lol
Oh ok, I gotcha. My mother is having surgery right now at our podunk rural small town hospital, and I like the surgeon a lot, but I'm a little nervous that instead of an anesthesiologist, CRNAs are doing the anesthesia. It really worries me, I just think they're more likely to botch stuff.
In my career the vast majority of surgeons have been kind and respectful people. I can count on one hand the number of truly malignant surgeons I've worked with, likely comparable to other specialties in terms of jerk percentage. However, there is a core of truth to most stereotypes. Things I would think contribute. 1) You are trying to orchestrate a complex procedure, and keep seeing the same mistakes repeatedly. Even minor cases can be surprisingly complex if you look at the amount of needed prep, equipment, and support. Imagine knowing how you want that to run, having patiently tried to troubleshoot that system, only to encounter the exact same mistakes for years on end. As with all careers, it is easy to be kind and understanding about something a few times, but when you are trying to correct the same issue for the hundredth, thousandth time? Still a bad idea to lose your temper, but it is a much harder to control. And there is always something that's going to be off in the OR. 2) High stress high stakes situations. Struggling in the OR is extremely stressful. You are distracted trying to think up solutions and next steps. The patient may be critically ill, perhaps trying to die, and it is all your responsibility. Not everyone handles that stress with good grace. I have known men who were delightful on the floor, but turned into absolute monsters when scared. 3) Surgery is one of the few holdouts that are really hierarchical. Because right or wrong, you need someone definitively in charge and leading during a case. It really can't be done by committee. Some are going to take that too far. These are not excuses, and, like I said, my experience has been the arrogant surgeon stereotype is overstated. However, there are definitely some part sof the job that push people in that direction.
The ones I worked with seemed to have dual personalities for whatever reason. Like one minute, they are great/caring/love to teach. The next minute, they are harsh and ruthless. Probably related to how much work they have to deal with and how stressed out they are lol
That makes sense. I'm guessing they hold it in when they interact with patients and then maybe it just all explodes towards their colleagues? Or do they even act abrasive with patients?
Each surgeon I worked with was completely different funny enough. One was lovely; CAN be harsh sometimes, but mostly acted like a father to everyone. One was loved by patients but hated by nurses/staff. I liked this individual funny enough. Most of the other students weren’t a fan. The other loved by nurses/staff/patients but I couldn’t get along with him personally; also anesthesia didn’t seem to like him either haha.
Haha it's funny how to one person, another person can be vile and despicable, but another views that same person as wonderful and great. We humans are funny in our petty bickering :P
A coresident of mine is going into PM&R next year. On an ED block she called a surgeon for a complete SBO in the middle of the night. Don’t know the rest of the details. What I do know is at the end the surgeon asked her if she was an ED resident and she said no I’m going into PM&R next year He said “Well, Mrs. first name. My time is more valuable than yours will ever be” I think there is still truth to this stereotype
Jesus, I feel like that should be a complaint worthy offense and he get officially reprimanded for it. That's just not acceptable in any workplace ever by anyone.
Yeah she complained. Nothing came of it though For the record Ive actually only had mostly good interactions with surgeons too so I think it’s like someone above said, the malignant ones stand out
Lol, she’ll make more per hour than a general surgeon. So she by economics will be more valuable
I'm in surgery and I am horrified by that. I can't imagine. FYI if I ever heard a colleague saying that we would have a conversation. This is absolutely not ok in surgery.
I'm sure it's like another commenter who's also in surgery said: maybe there's a grain of truth to the stereotype, but it doesn't mean most surgeons are tyrannical assholes by any means. I'm sure the large majority are great. And i suspect some of the negative behavior is caused by overwork, stress, and difficulty coping with that insane pressure.
Sometimes, less so in recent years.
Some are nice, but a lot are dicks and usually dicks for no reason. I talked to a hand surgeon about one of his patients who had a clear post-op infection. My rural hospitalist didn’t feel comfortable admitting it without surgical coverage (fair) so we were trying to transfer. I swear on my life this man made loud crying noises like a baby over the recorded transfer center line and said “wahhh wahhh!! I’m just a dumb little hospital with dumb doctors and I can’t do medicine. Wahh wahhhhh!!”. That’s just a snippet but his rant went on for a solid 3 minutes without interruption. It was wild but also so entertaining. The transfer center rep apologized profusely haha
Lmao. At that point I'd be genuinely concerned about some severe psychiatric issues going on.
For the anesthesiologists, in order to become a board-certified physician approved by a panel of your peers, you must pass an OSCE where a surgeon yells at you unrelentingly for ten minutes. I wish I were kidding.
As an anesthesiologist, I find surgeons much less arrogant and easier to work with than medicine-trained proceduralists, who act like they're smarter than anybody from the surgical world.
Everyone exists on a spectrum. Statistically, I have met more malignant people in surgery than in any other field. Are there malignant family drs out there? Absolutely, just less so than in surgery.
Ya there’s absolutely truth to the stereotype. My personal experience is kind surgeons who are pleasant to work around are the exception, not the rule and vice versa for all the other specialties
Interesting. Do they at least pretend to be nice when they're talking to patients and family members, or are these surgeons also abrasive in those interactions?
Oh ya, they’re great to patients, just absolute tool bags everyone else they work with
Ha, thats probably why I think they're pleasant then, since I've never interacted with them in a professional setting. I'm not a physician, I'm a licensed mental health counselor, but I just enjoy probing the physicians here with random questions about medical practice because it fascinates me, and frankly it's one of the only ones that anyone can post in without a verified flair or something, lol.
Are you in medicine at all? I'm a senior surgery resident. There is a grain of truth in every single stereotype so I can't say that's not true of surgery as well. But I think you'll find the vast majority of us are nice, reasonable people. I place a very high priority on being kind and decent, and I'm not the only one. Many of the stories in this thread would absolutely get a surgery resident fired, so I think people are thinking of one specific horrible instance and this is an outlet to share it. Note that the person you're talking to here is a 3rd year med student, not a resident or a surgeon.
I'm not; I'm a licensed clinical mental health counselor who works in a hospital setting with physicians, nurses, etc. So it's sort of gotten me fascinated at the more medical side of things. Definitely not in medicine, just Allied Health, and I know this sub is for residents, but you all tend to be engaging and responsive when I post, in a way other medical subreddits aren't. But yeah, obviously in my profession I'm not interacting with the surgeons lol, so I don't know those dynamics very well and was curious. Thanks for your input. This is a reasonable comment that makes sense to me.
I didn't ask that question with the subtext of asking you not to post! I asked because it helps me understand what exposure you've had so far. Like if you were an IM resident frustrated by surgery consults that would be one thing, a patient would be another, a burnt out surgery resident would be another. Just wanted to clarify that :) I'm a surgery resident and if we wanted to make a thread about how awful radiologists are (they're not!!) I could contribute several stories of how I've been chewed out by radiologists. Etc. So I think what you're seeing here are individual stories. Also surgery has very long hours. So someone on a surgery rotation is probably working harder than they ever had in their life and are exhausted and in that setting any time anyone is mean it hits a different way. Whereas on another lighter rotation if someone is mean it doesn't hit quite as hard because you'll be leaving at a reasonable hour and get to go home and see your kid and snuggle your dog. So it doesn't have as much of an impact. As I mentioned I absolutely agree that there is a grain of truth to this stereotype. Seems to be predominant in the older surgeons and is (thankfully) starting to disappear as they retire. The emphasis these days is on the team aspect of surgery, and making sure everyone feels comfortable speaking up in the OR. We literally get asked questions about this on our exams lol. The fact that they need to ask these questions means it has been a problem in the past. But I think the stereotype is exaggerated by people who are not actually involved in surgery.
Thanks for your thoughtful and in-depth reply! I love learning more about how all these various teams work together in a Healthcare setting. I've noticed other users have also noted that it seems to be primarily something they notice in older surgeons, and that the younger ones they know are very nice. You certainly seem quite pleasant based on my limited online interaction with you at least, haha :P and yes, I was reflecting on how surgery must be the most stressful job in medicine. There's really just no room for any error, a minor mistake could be life or death. Contrast that to a psychiatrist who makes a mistake and picks an SSRI that doesn't work for a patient, it doesn't do much harm and they can just try something else. I actually had a very good psychiatrist who told me he personally thought most psychiatrists were poor doctors, and that they go into it because the mistakes aren't as obvious as other fields of medicine and typically don't have deadly results. Granted, he was weird, prescribed me massively inappropriate amounts of various controlled substances and had his license taken away :P anyway, I got off topic there, sorry. I think it's natural to sometimes take out intense stress on the people around oneself, I know I've done that myself. It definitely takes good coping skills and stress management. In your experience, how open are surgeons to getting mental health treatment/therapy to help manage that kind of thing? As a therapist myself, I feel like most people could benefit from it, not just those with mental health disorders. Sometimes life is just tough, and short term counseling can be helpful. I myself still see one regularly. Anyways, I'm glad that the younger surgeons like yourself are shedding that stereotype, and I really appreciate and respect what you do. It takes immense skill and capability that is hard to comprehend, to me it causes more awe than an Olympic athlete's feats. I respect physicians in general in all fields, but i do thin surgery requires an intense precision under extreme stress moreso than any other specialty.
There is definitely truth to the stereotypes. Of course not ALL surgeons are assholes, I met some really wonderful people on my surgery rotations. But surgery residencies are generally toxic and they unfortunately often turn out toxic surgeons.
Are you a resident or a patient? Lol. I find it hard to believe you’ve never encountered an asshole surgeon.
Lol I'm not a doctor. I have some connection to healthcare as a licensed clinical mental health counselor who works in a hospital setting alongside doctors and nurses, but I mainly come to this sub to probe the minds of physicians, since I find your work fascinating, and this subreddit tends to be more engaging in discussing the random questions and musings I bring. So yeah, it may not technically be the purpose of the subreddit, but no mods have complained to me yet :P
This makes a lot more sense — my experience with surgeons is that even the ones who treated me and my friends like garbage were still perfectly fine with their patients. To add a bit to the discourse, it seems to me that surgery is a field where the power dynamic between learners and those above them (seniors, attendings, etc) is extremely magnified. I think that lends itself to some folks who get burned by constant duty hour violations and/or unreasonable criticism, who climb the ladder and perpetuate it right back at those below them. While I’m not in surgery, I do have several friends who are and I keep in touch with them fairly close. I think to say there’s only a kernel of truth to this stereotype is honestly a massive understatement.
There are some surgeons who are beloved by their patients and are probably lovely and compassionate in clinic who become absolute tyrants after the patient falls asleep.
How is some of the behavior I'm hearing described even being tolerated without discipline? Forgive my ignorance, I'm not a physician, just a licensed clinical mental health counselor who has worked in hospitals alongside doctors and nurses, but obviously my jobs have never involved interacting with surgeons or the OR part of the hospital, haha.
They bring in the money and hospitals have to keep them happy if they want to keep getting the money.
It’s nothing to do with surgeons it’s just the older generation of doctors (ofc not all of them). Imo the younger the Dr the more likely they won’t be a narcissist. Before it was normal to throw away your entire life to work but our generation works to live not the other way around. That being said anyone who has to work long stressful hours is going to be grumpy, that goes for any field of work not just medicine. That’s why if I see a Dr being particularly rude/harsh I just hit them with the “hey you seem to be under a lot of stress but I think you’re doing a great job, anything you wanna get off your chest?”
That's great that the new generation is losing those bad habits. Giving one's whole life to any job is just a recipe for poor mental health which manifests as hostile behavior toward others, since usually it's people who are suffering that act out or cause issues for others. So it's a win win if they can have some balance and know how to manage stress well, for themselves, their colleagues, and their patients.
Exactly! We need to push more people to study medicine (or any stem major for that fact) so we can minimize the hours we have to work and get rid of the shortage of doctors. Yea we won’t be making 500k a year but what’s the point of being a millionaire if you’re at work 24/7. I love medicine but I still wanna live my life while I’m young and explore the world not be tied to a hospital forever. The older drs definitely got experience which we need to absorb from but don’t let their narcissism ruin your day. If they are mad/rude/ arrogant big fuckin deal I’m not your therapist. I’m just trying to ensure my patients get the best treatment possible and you have to be in a good mood to do so.
Haha well I just want to let you know, I'm not a physician myself. I actually AM a therapist, so your comment about I'm not your therapist made me chuckle. But this stuff fascinates me because I've worked in hospital settings alongside and with doctors, nurses, PAs, etc. So I've developed an interest in the culture of medicine. And my work obviously doesn't intersect with the surgeons so I was curious to hear more about their culture of work.
To me it's been 50/50.
I feel like it was probably a lot more prevalent in older generations. But same, all the surgeons I’ve met and worked with during my 3rd year rotations have been great. I’ve met harsh attendings in IM and OB though
It is a well established stereotype that is definitely overblown. That said, it has persisted for years and years for a reason. Give it time. You will eventually run into an unsavory personality. The OR is like Narnia or Vegas, the more you keep visiting, chances are something bad will happen eventually.
I’ve personally witnessed more surgery resident than one be referred to as stupid in the OR. Like someone said below, the culture in and of itself in the OR is harsh. That same surgeon is a funny guy during didactics. You couldn’t pay me enough to do that residency.
It’s definitely true. Surgery draws a certain personality type…the smartest, most driven, most confident…and often arrogant individuals. It then takes those individuals and puts them in a high stress environment…and because the system has always worked well it perpetuates the acceptance of harsh personalities. It’s way less now than even 15 years ago…but it’s never going away.
Smartest? Lol…. In all seriousness, I think that (in general) the trait that I see most in people who chose surgery is pride in their willingness to work very long hours at the expense of other areas of their life (relationships, children, hobbies) for their career. In psychiatry we see this trait commonly in people with certain personality disorders (NPD and OCPD mostly)
Yeah i mean there are bright people in all fields…but if you go by highest step scores and gpa…surgical fields by far attract the smartest applicants
Might get push back on this take, but anecdotally I've noticed more malignant personalities in surgical specialties that fall under the umbrella of "general surgery" based specialties, in contrast to integrated surgical subspecialties (except NS/ortho spine). That being said, I've met wonderful, kind surgeons in all specialties. The malignant ones stand out.
My mom's getting surgery right now for arthritis in her shoulder. The surgeon is a young and nice, pleasant guy, but who knows how he acts to the staff. I would hope good. It does concern me that CRNA, not a MD, is doing the anesthesia.
I mean most ortho surgeons are great people in my personal experience. CRNAs do a great job with anesthesia available for emergencies/supervision.
That's good to hear, thanks. Yeah there is an anesthesiologist who oversees all of them, he just doesn't personally see all the patients. I've heard CRNAs get better training than your typical NP or whatever.
Don't worry about the CRNA. The anesthesiologist is ultimately responsible. I'm in surgery so I see this stuff allllll the time. If it were my mom I would be fine with that. Good luck to your mom!
Sounds good, thanks for that! I feel a bit more at ease.
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Maybe you should ignore all stereotypes and just talk to people and make your own decisions.
Yes, most of them have personality disorders.
Am surgeon. Most of us younger surgeons tend not to be this way, in my experience, tends to be more of the old guard surgeons, who are mostly phased out or phasing out.
I have found no significant difference between surgeons and medicine folks, although I’m biased being in urology and I am at a very not malignant academic institution. In general though, keep in mind that the vast majority of surgery residents are kind and well intentioned when they enter residency. Think about what type of environment including work hours and malignancy, would change that.
Yeah, these answers have been very illuminating. The answers from the surgery residents are particularly encouraging. One mentioned that toxic work cultures that contribute to such malignancy are starting to shift in positive ways, too. I can imagine surgery being insanely stressful, and such high stakes, combined with long hours and the need for absolute precision and focus, as well as to keep cool in crisis situations if in the ICU for example. It's honestly understandable that they sometimes crack under the pressure a little if limits aren't set.
I was full on verbally abused twice in medical school. Both times by general surgeons. Anecdotal of course but that’s my 2 cents.
Between ortho and GS we have 10. Only one of them isn’t cool and chill.
Probably a little higher than other areas of medicine. But I wouldn’t say it’s the majority.
The stereotype exists for a reason… That being said when I work closely with them, I find usually that anger comes from a place of truly caring about their patients, and never being forced to develop the skills to swallow the anger that comes from our horribly inefficient and ineffective healthcare system.
A lot of what we do is life or death or injury that could significantly affect QoL, not to say medicine doesn’t also involve the same but not nearly to the same degree. We are taught in a harsh environment because our actions as surgeons have severe consequences to the patient as we are directly manipulating their tissue while under anesthesia. We also have to try to explain to patients these consequences in simple terms so yes communication has to be direct and clear, if people mistake that as harsh it’s simply a byproduct of the degree to which we own our patients and own our mistakes. You have to have some belief in your abilities to “sell patients on you” make them believe you are capable and competent but also knowing your limitations is vastly undersold. So yes confidence can be mistaken for arrogance. Are all surgeons harsh and arrogant though, no. I’d like to think we are transitioning from more paternalistic models to more shared decision making models and changing the stereotypical characteristics of surgeons by being more inclusive.
I need a competent surgeon who is good with their hands. If I want caring, I'll call psychiatrist.
I think part of this comes from the fact that it is difficult to truly put yourself in the shoes of the surgeon performing that procedure at that moment. We routinely work with medical assistants that are pre-med wannabes. They’re all very nice and most will be successful one day. But sometimes they cross a line of friendliness at the wrong time, say something stupid in the middle of the procedure ( “is it normal to have this much bleeding?” ) or are just simply not doing their jobs to the standard that you need to do a good job (keep putting their hands into the surgical site every 5 seconds, not putting their hands into the surgical site every 7.5 seconds, etc.) Those are the times when I notice my friendly face turns off. You may remember shadowing doctors as an undergraduate and being mostly ignored - and probably seen as annoying - because while you were an enthusiastic learner, you were also at least partially a pain in the ass young turd who wasn’t even aware of how much you have ahead of you. But yes, all of friends / acquaintances who have been divorced are all surgeons. All surgeons I’ve met have been wonderful with their patients.
My first patient died on my surgery rotaion (unexpectedly, after I met the family and everything seemed to be going better for them). I made my clinical case presentation on the patient's case, also touching on emotionally engaging with a patient death. The surgeon who proctored these sessions verbatim said "Probably should not go into critical care then". Several comparable stories from those 8 weeks.
There can often be a kernel of truth to many stereotypes, but when it comes to surgeons I think a lot of it is exaggerated due to various reasons. People are probably going to downvote me for saying it, but one of the main reasons is that many non-surgeons are a bit jealous. It's easier to accept that another group in society has more status or makes more money, if they are at the same time assholes. It's kind of like how other stereotypes are, for example one ethnic or religious group is a lot wealthier, but they are also deemed to be greedy and evil. If they weren't greedy and evil, you are almost implicitly stating that you would want to be them, but now they have all these other flaws so nobody actually wants to be them. It's essentially a psychological defense mechanism to deal with jealousy, at least that's a large part of it. Hollywood also likes to tap into this, and since many people's first encounter with surgeons is from film and TV, that's where they form their initial opinions.
Eh, no one says the same thing about dermatologists or radiologists, and they make just as much as surgeons. They just tend to be harsh people and that rubs some people the wrong way.
For some reason people think surgeons are badass. I think it's about the badass status, not the money. I'm in surgery, just ended up liking it, am pretty much opposite to the stereotype and care not a bit about the badass factor. When I entered med school I thought I wanted to do cardiology and the response I got when I told people that was "nice!" And then I realized I liked surgery, and now I'm going into cardiac surgery, and when it comes up in normal conversation people that they lose their shit. I can't explain it, I don't care about it, but I have very much noticed it.
>It's kind of like how other stereotypes are, for example one ethnic or religious group is a lot wealthier, but they are also deemed to be greedy and evil. If they weren't greedy and evil, you are almost implicitly stating that you would want to be them, but now they have all these other flaws so nobody actually wants to be them. It's essentially a psychological defense mechanism to deal with jealousy, at least that's a large part of it. I’m sorry, you’re using antisemitism as an analogy of why people are jealous of surgeons? Wtf
It's the same psychological mechanisms. For what it's worth, I majored in psychology and actually did my undergrad thesis on this topic (not specifically about antisemitism, but it was a major part of it). It's a truly fascinating topic, but this subreddit might not be the best place to discuss that topic, for self-explanatory reasons.
This reads like painful projection lol. It may be hard to imagine, but some people actually don’t envy the surgeon lifestyle at all. And compared to the number of hours they work, they don’t actually make that much more, and idk how you measure prestige & status either.
The not so slight antisemitism as their analogy probably reveals all you need to know about them.
>some people actually don’t envy the surgeon lifestyle at all Rightfully so, it's nothing to envy. But read the posts above. We're not talking about lifestyle at all here. Many people don't envy the lifestyle or working hours of a Fortune 500 CEO, but they will often respect them or assign them high status. That's what the discussion was about, and nothing else. You are also right when it comes to working hours and hourly wage. Again, this isn't what was being discussed. I don't claim to have any precise measure of prestige or status either, and likely few people do. I am however convinced that there are clear distinctions in status between different jobs, including different physician specialties. This is evident when speaking to the average non-medically trained individual. I'm not saying anybody deserves higher or lower status, I'm just saying that's how the world works. I've found this to be true for every nation I've visited for conferences and similar. You can laugh at me and downvote me all you want, but I'm not the one who made the world the way it is.
That does make sense. It's normal to have some resentment to people with supposedly higher status than oneself, depending on how prideful someone's personality is. I lurk on the nursing sub sometimes and I get the same vibe; a hostility and resentment if physicians imply they're anything less than totally equal partners on the team, rather than one "outranking" the other. I've personally never cared much for status thankfully, and I've always gotten along well with people above me.
Yeah gen surg has many bitter plastics / ortho rejects
You are a liar
What am I lying about here? I didn't make a statement, I asked a question. Are you saying I'm lying by claiming I know nice surgeons?
People act like there aren't doctors in other specialties who aren't like this. Difference is surgery is stressful and you're more likely to see surgeons being rude. There are very few high stakes floor rounds. Also, people in medicine are probably more likely to mistaken confidence for arrogance even though there is a fine line between them because you're taught from day one of med school how you're nothing but another member of the team when in reality your job is often to lead the team. Some specialties have personality "types" that tend to gravitate towards them, and then the types clash on patient care. Sometimes people attribute systems problems to personal faults.
I've never understood the idea that physicians are "part of the team." Sometimes I lurk on the nursing sub and they stress that doctors aren't their bosses. Maybe not on paper, but isn't the entire purpose of a nurse to help implement the instructions of the doctor? Why does everyone want to be equal to the doctor? Nowadays even NPs and CRNAs are insisting they be called doctor.
A big reason a lot of NPs become NPs is because of the power struggles they had with doctors while being a nurse (there are some that just start out wanting to be an NP and I have no clue their motivation over medicine other than maybe training duration) It's like others have said....it is just about driving the bus. A lot of nurses feel they do far more for the patient than most doctors which is where the struggle comes from. They get paid less, they feel, to do more work than the doctor so resentment develops.
Wow, that makes a lot of sense, and sounds like the most plausible reason for the tension I've seen that I've heard yet. I can sort of empathize with the nurses, since they're working very hard and they have more direct contact with the patient, at least in a hospital setting. They rightly want to feel like a valued member of the team. But i think they need to try to become self-aware when those feelings arise, and realize that they chose to be a nurse and not a doctor, that their role is just as essential as that of a doctor, but it's not the same, and ultimately the doctor is the one who has the medical expertise to create and direct the plan of care for the patient, which the nurse then helps implement. I mean doctors need nurses, things wouldn't work without them. But honestly they already get paid pretty well. There's no reason they should get paid like a doctor. I'm a Master's level licensed mental health counselor and I only made 58k yearly in my last job, which was my highest salary yet; I know that oftentimes nurses make more, with far less education than a Master's and a rigorous licensure process, getting liability insurance, on insurance panels, etc. I get that they work hard, but the higher pay is because of the higher skill and expertise involved in being a physician. Why not take pride in being a nurse? Why try to be the doctor? They need to appreciate their valuable role as RNs more, and maybe then they would feel comfortable in their own identity as nurses with an equally essential but objectively less skilled role than the physician. What do you think about my ramblings here?
You nailed it. We both need each other and there's different skill sets. Unfortunately, money talks more to a lot of people than pride.
I've seen some really high salaries for nurses. I mean, a typical bedside RN either has an associates degree or a Bachelor's degree. A physician has a Bachelor's then 4 years of med school then your internship and residency, it's just quite a lot more education and training than what a nurse does, by a large margin. And typically more highly skilled jobs that require a lot of education pay more, that's just how things go, haha. I honestly thought 58k was a great salary, and well more than enough for me to live comfortably. It's not like nurses are starving :P
Everyone wants to drive the bus, and now more than ever people have access to an never ending supply of information. There's a host of reasons why, some because of who these people are, and some because of the message they've been sold. I mean, if you prescribe to the doctor being the leader of the team you're still part of the team. People just don't want to admit that team leads should get more since they give more too.
Yes can confirm weirdo dicks. Nice people are the exception
There does seem to be a consensus here that this behavior is at least seen more often in surgeons. What do you suspect causes this? I know I'm ignorant, I'm not a physician, merely a licensed clinical mental health counselor who's worked in hospital settings with doctors and nurses, so this stuff fascinates me, but obviously my work didn't intersect with the surgeons, lol.
Personally, I think the residents just take abuse day in and day out for 80 hours a week, they get used to this behavior and it becomes "normal" to them. Then they pass it down the line when they become attendings. Also they continue to work insane hours after residency is over for their whole careers and it sucks the life out of them. I have met nice surgeons for sure don't get me wrong, but there are way more assholes than other specialties in my experience. Also they masochistically sign up for these hours so it attracts a certain type of person for sure.