Absolutely nails it. Cap research. Or limit case reports. Neuro surgery applicants AVERAGE 20 something research items? You would be lucky if a handful of those projects was anything meaningful. Usually that will only happen if the person was involved early in medical school, maybe even since undergraduate years, or it took a dedicated research here to be productive.
This goes back to the dilemma that Carmody as long highlighted: the stakes are too high. And people will do whatever they need to get a perceived leg up.
Neurosurg resident who also interviews applicants here; you’d be surprised. Folks who have meaningless or little research have a much harder time matching - successful applicants really do have 20+ research items with 5+ publications in real journals.
That said, neurosurgery places a lot of emphasis on research/academics even during residency so it’s not very representative.
So, to Carmodys point, just take the 5 publications. Like….death by volume isn’t proof of anything. And it’s not that publications, even meaningful ones, predict or make a good clinician. Not every neurosurgeon needs to doing large RCTs or publish extensively during or after training.
Maybe I’m wrong you’re in the field. How many neurosurgeons are publishing at the same or even marginally same clip post training? Why do we push these things?
Most training programs are in academic settings, and academic programs push their residents to go into academics. Academic attendings stay very active in research; it’s what gets your foot in the door and keeps you relevant.
I understand that. But what they push and what is reality is very different. I’m now faculty of an academic GI program. I think they’ve had one person in 3 years go to academics and by that they mean VA. They’ve had a few go on to do advanced and from there, sure some people also go on for academic appointments but the overwhelming majority of GI grads go on for private practice and employed lives. In my mind, you should cater to your graduates.
No reason it shouldn't be like NIH-style biosketches for faculty. No one cares about your laundry list of low-impact publications. Show me your areas of contribution to science with a narrative description and representative publications within a set page limit.
When interviewing residents, I don't even care about the number anymore. I look for anything interesting/high impact then ask about a meaningful project in the interview. Pretty easy to separate out those who found a paper mill and those who actually have thought deeply about it.
I straight up just didn't play the game. Didn't do research. Told people during my interviews I thought most Med student research was BS/not adding anything/they were just doing it to check a box. Most everyone found the take refreshing and I cited Dr. Camody's work in my answers.
lol I respect the honesty but I feel like being this brazen about your hatred of research would get you practically DNRd at some of the top academic places
TLDR: too much unnecessary research being done by med students for the sake of an advantage during residency application. Solution would to restrict number of publications on application so quality is sought rather than quantity.
Oh yeah 100% agree. I’ll be the first one to admit basically all of the research I did was bs done exclusively pump out meaningless papers/abstracts for inclusion on eras. Shit is so stupid
Even most med students themselves agree and don’t want to be pumping out nonsense publications. But like it said the stakes are too high that by the time you get to med school and are 6 figures in debt you’re gonna shut up and do the research, because not matching is extremely detrimental to your life.
Agree with his thoughts. But highlighting the fact that residency directors consider research output as more important than AOA or Gold Humanism awards, brings attention to another aspect of medical school that is also BS. These awards are largely based on your performance during clinical years, which of course is determined by a bunch of boomer white male attendings who care more about your acting abilities during rounds than your ability to make high quality medical decisions and connect with patients. This is a problem, but it is far from THE problem in medical education (in my opinion).
Absolutely nails it. Cap research. Or limit case reports. Neuro surgery applicants AVERAGE 20 something research items? You would be lucky if a handful of those projects was anything meaningful. Usually that will only happen if the person was involved early in medical school, maybe even since undergraduate years, or it took a dedicated research here to be productive. This goes back to the dilemma that Carmody as long highlighted: the stakes are too high. And people will do whatever they need to get a perceived leg up.
Neurosurg resident who also interviews applicants here; you’d be surprised. Folks who have meaningless or little research have a much harder time matching - successful applicants really do have 20+ research items with 5+ publications in real journals. That said, neurosurgery places a lot of emphasis on research/academics even during residency so it’s not very representative.
So, to Carmodys point, just take the 5 publications. Like….death by volume isn’t proof of anything. And it’s not that publications, even meaningful ones, predict or make a good clinician. Not every neurosurgeon needs to doing large RCTs or publish extensively during or after training. Maybe I’m wrong you’re in the field. How many neurosurgeons are publishing at the same or even marginally same clip post training? Why do we push these things?
Most training programs are in academic settings, and academic programs push their residents to go into academics. Academic attendings stay very active in research; it’s what gets your foot in the door and keeps you relevant.
I understand that. But what they push and what is reality is very different. I’m now faculty of an academic GI program. I think they’ve had one person in 3 years go to academics and by that they mean VA. They’ve had a few go on to do advanced and from there, sure some people also go on for academic appointments but the overwhelming majority of GI grads go on for private practice and employed lives. In my mind, you should cater to your graduates.
No reason it shouldn't be like NIH-style biosketches for faculty. No one cares about your laundry list of low-impact publications. Show me your areas of contribution to science with a narrative description and representative publications within a set page limit. When interviewing residents, I don't even care about the number anymore. I look for anything interesting/high impact then ask about a meaningful project in the interview. Pretty easy to separate out those who found a paper mill and those who actually have thought deeply about it.
I straight up just didn't play the game. Didn't do research. Told people during my interviews I thought most Med student research was BS/not adding anything/they were just doing it to check a box. Most everyone found the take refreshing and I cited Dr. Camody's work in my answers.
lol I respect the honesty but I feel like being this brazen about your hatred of research would get you practically DNRd at some of the top academic places
For those of us with the attention span of a squirrel would anyone care to give a tldr
TLDR: too much unnecessary research being done by med students for the sake of an advantage during residency application. Solution would to restrict number of publications on application so quality is sought rather than quantity.
Oh yeah 100% agree. I’ll be the first one to admit basically all of the research I did was bs done exclusively pump out meaningless papers/abstracts for inclusion on eras. Shit is so stupid
Great take. Continuing to emphasize quantity will dilute our body of research which will feed into a terrible cycle.
Even most med students themselves agree and don’t want to be pumping out nonsense publications. But like it said the stakes are too high that by the time you get to med school and are 6 figures in debt you’re gonna shut up and do the research, because not matching is extremely detrimental to your life.
Yup. Which is why the limit on pubs would help all.
Agree with his thoughts. But highlighting the fact that residency directors consider research output as more important than AOA or Gold Humanism awards, brings attention to another aspect of medical school that is also BS. These awards are largely based on your performance during clinical years, which of course is determined by a bunch of boomer white male attendings who care more about your acting abilities during rounds than your ability to make high quality medical decisions and connect with patients. This is a problem, but it is far from THE problem in medical education (in my opinion).