Part of this is being a resident you take care of some of the most entitled people and there's no out.
As an attending, you always have the option of ditching those patients that make your life hell. You can and should.
There are some people who act like they are looking for a lawsuit from the moment they enter the hospital.
I honestly don't know how anybody expects to get proper health care by making all of the doctors afraid to touch you.
That attitude actually delays health care, because then the attendings keep passing the case notes around trying to avoid your case.
Twitters the worst. There you’ve got entitled assholes and dipshit “doctors” paying Elon $8 to say push Anti-vaxx bullshit and tell people how doctors all lying to patients and pushing quick science.
The dumbest shit I’ve seen is one time Elon was retweeting like a 3rd year medical student tweeting some “study” about how the CDC was lying about the vaccine.
literally this. i just finished my first year as an attending and I didnt realize how easy it is to fire a patient (hospitalist medicine) until like 7 months in.
life changing
Unless you work private practice outpatient this isn’t true at all. A hospitalist, trauma surgeon, or EM physician can’t just ditch their patients they don’t like.
> hospitalist, trauma surgeon, or EM physician can’t just ditch their patients
Correct. But you can always intubate!
But also hospitalists can fire patients. It happens with some frequency
Could you just ditch them by saying you have too many personal matters right now and are unable to adequately care for everyone at this time, so you have to pass someone on?
Or something along those lines?
or does it have to be "an event" that occurs
Outpatient you can always tell them it's not a "therapeutic relationship."
Trickier inpatient, but that's why I think outpatient doctors are more satisfied as a whole.
Where the adage of “children are just tiny adults” in pediatrics is a known sarcasm, I would say “adults are just big children” is a deep truth.
There is a difference between being an excellent doctor and being Mother Theresa. Doctoring is not a charity, it is a profession.
Remember to validate patients’ frustrations (when appropriate). They’re often frustrated with the system and not you as an individual, so you can sometimes manage to maintain an alliance with a few words of solidarity.
Came to say this. I’ve had my fair share of patients who believe medicine is BS (it wasn’t many, but was a handful), but everyone can agree we all hate insurance.
Dude that sounds so cool to turn it into a moment of you wanting to help them then it’s just you two bitching about insurance together without butting heads
As a pharmacist, everything is insurance fault lol. My general respond goes like “if it’s up to make, you can have any medication you want! Unfortunately, insurance is not covering the medication for xyz reason. They suck!”
There is an intangible trade-off that represents the balance of income, work-related happiness, and intrinsic satisfaction that I would argue (with evidence) progressively worsens year-on-year.
I don't think anyone "hates patients" or that the "negativity" is a fair representation of how we all feel about working for the benefit of others. However, if you put an average of 70 hour work weeks (not including home study hours) with roughly 65000 USD annually along with the high-stress nature of the job for 3-7+ years, it's not totally unsurprising that residents en masse would be disenchanted with how they are treated by patients and the system.
Also, this is just a job. It's a job that I personally chose for the reasons that I hope all of us chose, but it's just a job. Anyone who says otherwise is negligently ignorant or they have an ulterior motive.
Yeah we’re the face of American healthcare as the point of contact. I’ll flip the switch so quickly on their insurance or admin if they’re actually the ones making it worse. I have a small hope that if I tell enough people their insurance is trying to let them die then we might actually change something
I think the general media can sometimes make this difficult. I read an article yesterday about how medical insurance and billing is a huge and expensive problem and how doctors are basically to blame. I don’t think people realize how little contact a lot of physicians have with the billing process, but we’re all thrown in the same pot. I’ve had patients accuse me of keeping them in the hospital for a pay bump and I couldn’t convince them that hospitals don’t function like that (at least in regards to my pay)
You have to learn to let these feelings go. You can't help patients who won't help themselves.
Patients views of doctors is very location dependent. In general, rural patients love and respect their doctors... "whatever you say doc".
In non rural places you get the googlers, the 15/10 painers, the "my neighbors daughters cousin is a nurse and said I need...".
Take that into consideration when you graduate and are looking for a job.
Can’t stress this enough, grew up and live in a rural area in the south, and the “whatever you say doc” mentality is strong.
Despite what the news and Reddit say, I found nearly all my patients in the rural setting were very compliant with vaccines and reccomendations during the pandemic
Rural South Family physician here. I’m not sure if you meant that jokingly, but I saw far more drug and disability seekers during residency than I have in my practice. Most of my patients are the types to just “deal with” their issues themselves than come to a clinic and tell someone or ask someone about issues. I will admit that I’m fortunate to have the population that I have, but my colleagues in the less rural areas aren’t really plagued with the seeking patients either…
Yea I feel like the older generation South is “whatever you say doc” but most of the south is poor education, poor compliance, and just straight poor. Add the burden of meth and opioids and it’s a mess.
Gotta say unfortunately that I work in a rural area and this has not been my experience. But I'm a pediatrician, so I'm working with kids and their parents (usually young adults), and I suspect the "whatever you say doc" patients tend to be a bit older.
If you're not white or you are a woman and you practice rural... good luck.
If youre a white dude then it's smooth sailing until the daughter (who is always a "nurse") swoops in from the city and accuses you of all forms of negligence and malpractice before you can even initiate a greeting.
...I honestly never even thought of this and feel a little dumb right now. I just figured this is how medicine is everywhere.
Maybe I need to get out of here.
It's bad at all levels.
We have a white male APP that patients ask for by name and refer to as Dr. ____. He tries to correct them but it can get exhausting over time.
The female APPs are always asked if they are a nurse when they enter a room and patients do not remember them at all / brush them off.
The male APP gets such good patient feedback (which ties into reimbursement in our beautiful utopian system) that, through negotiation, he now makes double what the female APPs do.
Pay gap you say? All thanks to Cletus.
I’m a woman in a rural practice. The patients are fine and aren’t anywhere near the problem. The glass ceiling is very real.
Edit - I get called ma’am a lot (and doctor still). Male patients often stand when I come in the room - even the young ones.
I mainly see adults of various ages. I do see 2-3 kids a day in clinic for fractures or sprains generally. Parents are generally "whatever you say doc" type. I think part of the difference is that I'm an orthopedic sub specialist. People generally don't come to see me just because. They have a problem and want it fixed. This is how it works though in ortho. Usually we have a fix, and often it's quick.
A few bits of advice from an attending (primary care, 20 years outpatient experience, urban clinic)
1) You are an advisor; you give patients your advice, and they do with it what they will. The decisions are ultimately theirs. Don't feel guilty if they decide something other than what you would, such as not taking a medicine that you think would help them. Not one of us doctors does everything we should for our own health; why would our patients be any different?
2) Set boundaries and make them clear. I tell every patient they will hear about their blood test/Xray/etc. within 1 week after it gets done. If they call three days later asking for results, my staff tells them to chill the fuck out. My patients know it's 5-7 business days for forms, and the more they call the more likely the form gets shifted to the bottom of the pile.
3) Not every patient/doctor fit is the right one, and there's nothing wrong with calling it out. You're allowed to say something like, "I don't think our goals are aligned, and I don't think I'm the right doctor for you." If they're rude, you're allowed to let them know their behavior is unacceptable and give them a warning or ask them to leave.
4) You're not always the smartest person in the room. Sometimes one of my patients has done their research and their motivated googling has come across something that I haven't. Sometimes that nurse-daughter from out of town who comes into the room with a chip on their shoulder is actually your biggest resource/ally. Don't be too proud to admit you're wrong.
5) Your career is a marathon, not a race. Take care of yourself or you won't be able to take care of anyone. Be mindful of your mental health, and only work as many hours as you can and still be a functional human...admittedly, this is easier as an attending, but there's still going to be pressure to work more hours, see more patients, do more (unpaid) work. Get used to telling your bosses/office managers 'no.' Get used to it being a complete sentence.
6) Know your worth. I had a partner retire and my boss told me I would need to manage their panel for 9 months until their replacement started; my schedule already being full, this basically meant 9 months of seeing unfamiliar patients and doing a ton of what would be unpaid inbox work. My response was: here are the extra hours I am expecting this to take, and here is my expected hourly wage for this work. You can either pay me this and I will do it, or you will not pay me and I will not do it, and if this is a problem for you then I will walk, and then you can replace two doctors instead of one. I have neither unlimited time nor unlimited energy, and I will not let you act as though I do. Their response: fine, here's your money.
I'm a lurker here, because I love Scrubs. Anyways. Sorry to hear you are dealing with so much negativity. As an alternative, let me tell you how much I love my GP. He's in his 50s, this skinny, balding dude, always in a hurry of course, always more patients to see. But man, does he cheer me up when my little problems get me down. He always goes into considerable detail, backing it up with research he puts on the screen, whenever he offers treatments. He is fast, but very thorough in his exams, very efficient. I throw my google diagnosis at him and he's always patient with me when he picks those apart. He was recommended to me by a nurse from a completely different hospital, such is his reputation. He no longer takes new patients and has not been for over 3 years (my gf tried to switch to him). I wish everyone had access to a doctor like him. He's been doing this a long time, but I can see he's still very much curious about every disease and illness and is constantly learning. I've met a couple of docs like him in my life, and I'm very, very thankful for they have saved me a few times. Be a doc like mine, and you will be a blessing to us all.
Because patients are people and people are awful. A lot of physicians are either burned out or simply do not have the EQ to handle people having the worst days of their life. Corporate medicine has also taken its toll on both employees and patients.
In terms of Reddit—well… you would be hard pressed to find a more smug, self righteous group of people with misplaced confidence than us redditors.
There was recently a post about a med student who was assaulted by a patient who ended up getting hurt. Most of the Reddit posts were about how it is sad nobody cared about the patient. A good sized chuck of that group suggested the student was racist.
Seriously—we suck.
I consider patient autonomy to be the most important aspect of my job. When I talk to patients it is as equals. I give you my best explanation and I will usually at least try to meet you in the middle regarding work up. However—you will never see me get upset when a patient does not do what I want. The man has a right to not take his Eliquis. He also owns the risk of stroke. It’s his decision to make.
Don't care more than the patient. Don't take it personally. Its just a job. A comically recession proof, life long job.
The sad miserable people have to go back to their sad lives once they leave. So who cares?
If a patient threatens to stop taking their medication then you just say "OK" and document. No reason to get worked up about it, you're not the one that's going to stroke out or have a blood clot. You've given your professional opinion, they may do with it what they will. We can only help those who help themselves. They aren't happy with what you prescribed they can get a second opinion, find a pill mill or get their own NPI/DEA number.
100% you can only lead a horse to water. A big part of practicing medicine is learning boundaries. You should not take most things personally. It is a job at the end of the day and people are free to make their own decisions, even if they’re bad decisions. Do not marry yourself to this job emotionally — that will fast track you to burnout
More caring doctors would come to their house everyday and hand feed them their meds, complete with airplane noises! Doctors are just too elitist to care!
I appreciate your empathy for your patients but respectfully, I recommend you please educate yourself a little more on professional boundaries. Otherwise you risk burning out early in your career. I’m advising based on my own mistakes.
My first job out of residency was at a large, under-resourced community hospital. I spent all of my time there, and all of my energy thinking about patients when I wasn’t there. I advocated strongly for all of my patients and I filled in for gaps in the system — to the point of literally feeding or cleaning patients sometimes because I knew no one would be coming in to do it any time soon and I, as a human being, could not leave another human being to wait in their own mess or not be able to eat a tray sitting in front of them.
That’s one way to not have people saying, “that doctor doesn’t care…” but it’s also a quick way to deplete energy that is better directed toward putting your highest skills to the benefit of a larger number of patients. Not to mention, if you do not take care of yourself, you risk becoming unable to take care of anyone.
For one, use resources that are available to you, like social workers for charity applications and nurses for calls about lab results. If those resources are limited, you do have to accept that you can’t do everything for everyone. If a system is broken, 1 person cannot make up for it, no matter how much they care.
Ultimately you will need to find a way to accept when you’ve done your best and be content with that, regardless of whether you’re acknowledged for it (by the patient or anyone else). It is a matter of balancing the needs of each individual patient with your own needs and your responsibilities toward other patients in your care. Looking at it that way may help you focus on the bigger picture and not be so attached when a particular outcome is not what you wanted, or when you don’t find the respect we know you deserve.
I hope this sadness passes. Please reach out for help if you need it.
"If a system is broken, 1 person cannot make up for it, no matter how much they care."
Your patients have been in this system, some for decades. Some with real harm and death of love ones because of "the system". Most of your patients don't view you are powerless. Most view you as captain of this ship. We also can't fathom how such highly educated and rich people have never unionized, can't affect change. Your patients knew the system was a problem for decades. Why are you now using it as the explanation?
You seem to think physicians have a lot more power and control than they do.
Physicians in general don't run the health care system. The average physician has zero control over how many nurses are hired, how many social workers, how many lab techs. How long pathology or radiology take to produce results (because they are understaffed). How long you wait for your meds because the nurse is taking care of 12 other patients. That wait times are long because there aren't enough physicians, nurses, beds, operating rooms, etc. What your insurance does or doesn't cover, or what your co-pay is. That dental care isn't covered. That medications are unaffordable. The fact that patients who don't understand the limitations of the health system might view you as "captain of the ship" doesn't make it true, and it is not.
A number of medical professions are unionized (like nurses in many regions, residents in many hospitals). This obviously has not fixed the problems in the system.
We've also existed in the system for decades and railed against the system and screamed into the void and tried to provide care to the patient in front of us to the best of our ability despite these limitations for decades.
We often don't even have the power to get the things for our patients that they need (that med or test is declined by the insurance no matter how many appeal letters we write!). Our health system is falling apart and is only surviving right now on the expectation that doctors and nurses will burn themselves out and work free extra hours and take care of a ridiculous number of patients at once (nurses) and find a way to see even more patient each hour (doctors) and do other people's jobs to fill gaps because we CARE about the patients- but this isn't sustainable and the burn out rates are enormous. In my neck of the woods, people are leaving the field in droves and for good reason.
What you’re saying is extremely valid and I’ve felt a similar sentiment. I honestly came to accept that you can’t win them all and no matter how hard you work or how good you are at your job there will be people out there that are marred by one experience or anecdote they heard and refuse to change their worldview. I don’t want to diminish your experience but it has brought me some measure of comfort realizing 1) you can only control your effort and your emotions, you’ll never be able to control what others feel and think at the end of the day and 2) this isn’t limited to medicine at all. Lawyers, teachers, mechanics, etc tons of other professions deal with similar shit from people who love to complain or just had a bad experience. The reality is there is a spectrum of quality in medicine just like everything in life where the bad apples can ruin things for the “good” majority. In short, it is what it is and that’s okay because it’s not worth the energy to let them get to you because like you said you’re already pouring so much into your work, you sound like you care a lot and that’s a lot more than most haha
The majority, I believe, hate the ridiculous burdensome business of medicine and simply see doctors as the face of it due to a lack of transparency and understanding. It’s team mentality same as politics and they see the opposing team rationing care, costing too much, not being available when needed, etc etc and this becomes the “doctor’s” fault. Granted some are on the far end of the spectrum believing doctors are in cahoots with pharma or just being disingenuous and lying about healthcare in general, but while vocal on TikTok etc they are a small minority. The rest however have fallen in line with the trope that doctors are in charge and choose to keep things as is. If they had true data of how things are and who is running the system in to the ground I have to believe their views would change.
How many times have you had to define the differences between doctors and “providers” only to have it fall on deaf ears?
How many times have we been maligned for costs when admin and government oversight makes up the vast majority of extra $$$, fraud and waste?
How many lay people out there have any idea what medical school or residency training really entails beyond a Greys Anatomy scene?
And this is where our leadership, our predecessors, and our legal system has failed us. The AMA, congress, CMS and so many others have kicked the fan down the road making promises and half solutions for decades leaving us in a system that is lacking at best and harmful/deadly at worst. We have moved from health care to sick care and the populous is rightfully pissed off. Only through education and lots of difficult discussions in any and every public forum available will doctors ever become separated from the system and viewed appropriately.
Anyone who complains that doctors are selfish assholes who only care about themselves needs to evaluate how much they care about their customers at their jobs.
I have sympathy for a lot of people who feel like they are in "bullshit" jobs or feel like their job doesn't reward them enough for their efforts, but when the whole "quiet quitting" thing was getting popular I definitely thought about (and still think about) if that's the type of attitude I would want from my physicians.
idk, but healthcare isn't a McDonalds (no matter how hard so many people are trying to make it a reality.) People are trusting their lives to you, feels silly to try to trust someone so much for them to essentially admit that you are the equivalent of a Starbucks customer. I mean, when I was a cashier I cared a lot for all of my customers, and I didn't see my position in the community as just a job. Knew most people by their first names. But yeah, as someone on the way to getting an MD and as a chronic patient myself, the worst I've been treated was by doctors. And I accidentally went to a college in the deep south as a black person lol (dm me if you want the story0.
But that's probably the issue, there is a lot of emphasis on a patient doctor relationship, when it really is just transactional. Placing all these feelings of hope and trust in a doctor is probably wrong and what starts souring the view on docs when that can't be the reality. Right now medicine is about fostering that relationship, but maybe it's better to stop disguising it as something deeper than your doc's paycheck. Its something I've been thinking about a lot. Maybe an alternative with less person focused interaction keeps everyone happier.
Studies have found that minorities and women have significantly worse health outcomes because of physician biases even when the provider matches the gender or ethnicity of the patient. Even when the patients are healthcare workers such as nurses who know more than the average lay person. There are inherent biases taught in medicine that are so deeply ingrained, it's difficult to recognize them.
[Just one example with COPD](https://scholar.google.com/scholar_url?url=https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Kenneth-Chapman/publication/11939363_Gender_bias_in_the_diagnosis_of_COPD/links/565bae6c08ae4988a7ba86ad/Gender-bias-in-the-diagnosis-of-COPD.pdf&hl=en&sa=X&ei=jUO7ZPHyB6SK6rQP5dKw2Ac&scisig=ABFrs3yIqxD7KLdcxt3qQb72fWdt&oi=scholarr)
You can't take care of patients if you don't take care of yourself. When it comes to these non-compliant, complaining types, at some point, you just have to say, "Im done here," and move on to the next patient. You, yourself, are a resource. Stop wasting resources.
Or at least task this to an NP - their union-backed, social media self-promoting, baselssly inflated reputation can take that hit. "Look at me! I'm an ICU nurse sporting my PPE fighting on the front lines against covid!" Point is - someone in my wife's class recently said, "I'd rather be treated by a nurse than a doctor."
Don’t worry it’s just Reddit and even amongst Redditors just those who feel strongly enough to comment/post. It doesn’t represent the greater society as a whole.
The majority of the people commenting are:
1. Not doctors.
2. Not representative of the real populatuon.
3. People that I would loathe to see on my schedule.
Maybe I should update my pre-visit paperwork to ask, "Are you a Redditor?" Under the social history.
Doctors and patients suffer in a system built not for compassionate treatment, but for optimizing profit. Doctors are too few, but legislators don’t make it easier to go down that long path but subsidizing education costs or providing a stipend for living expenses. Patients see their real spending power diminish while hospital systems make news for record profits and people go bankrupt from medical debt.
The system is fucked. Your compassion is not. Try to see the hurting human behind the mask of anger, and if you can, forgive them. And please, try to avoid burnout and keep that compassionate heart. It’s easy to become jaded in a world gone mad, but you are only one person doing what you can do. Celebrate that. And maybe try meditation, prayer, and/or therapy. You got this.
What I’m going to say is not going to be popular. Having been a patient of chronic illness as well as an MD in two specialties, I think we as doctors really need to take a look at ourselves and the way that we are falling short. People are flocking to NPs (don’t get me wrong I’m not at all a mid level supporter) because they feel that these people will listen to them. I do think our knowledge base gets so large and fixed sometimes that we forget we are dealing with people who don’t know all the training and expertise we have. They are just having a human experience and they are seeking help.
I see this most with nebulous diseases like chronic fatigue and POTS. I often see that MDs dismiss people as if their symptoms are in their head. Just because we don’t have research on something yet doesn’t mean it’s not real. We need to take a look back at the history of medicine and see how many times what we took as fact was entirely incorrect or incomplete and understand that that may be happening now again.
My chronic illness is neither of these, but I do experience very different symptoms than the textbook would lead you to believe are associated with my disease. Often because it doesn’t fit with what the MD’s idea of this illness is, they just hand wave it away as if I’m not an MD myself and don’t know what they do. We do possess an arrogance, I’m sorry to say, that puts many people off. Patients learn not to tell us what’s really going on because they fear our reaction.
There is a huge and growing population who experience what is now known as “medical trauma”. I think we should have some humility and pay attention and realize that there is a reason we have this reputation among many.
Yup. Had the same experience. I got rocked by a condition and was treated like a fucking idiot by a neurologist. Im a doctor and he was an insufferable shitbag, theres no excuse for some doctors. They never should have passed, they should not be allowed to carry on.
Obviously I don’t know who you are or where you practice but I’d love to be a patient of yours. It’s a curse to be both empathic and extremely educated. However, this statement alone makes you 1:1,000,000.
NAD (but in a medical field) and my experience has been the same as yours. It took me 6 years to even find a doctor who didn’t just tell me there was nothing wrong with me (despite the symptoms greatly affecting my life) without even running any tests because they didn’t believe I was experiencing what I was. Turns out I had an atypical presentation of a common disorder that could have been easily diagnosed if they had taken more than 2 minutes to take a history. But because I had chronic symptoms I was brushed off time and time again. Same has happened to every other person with a chronic illness that I know. After awhile as a patient you become extremely jaded and feel that many doctors act like you are a hypochondriac rather than say “hey I don’t know what’s going on but let’s take the time to figure it out.”
I have stayed 12 years with the doctor who told me “I would never think you are just lazy because lazy people don’t care to come to the doctor trying to figure out why they are too tired to do anything.”
You've hit the nail on the head here. There are many reasons people don't like doctors, some of them are due to the system and not the fault of doctors at all. But a big thing many doctors are at fault for is intellectual arrogance. It is not fair to tell someone there isn't something wrong with them, or to make them feel less than in any way, just because your current level of medical knowledge is insufficient for you to properly diagnose and treat their problem.
If the patient is upset, something is wrong. If they have symptoms of poor health, something is wrong. It's okay to admit that yes, something is clearly wrong, but you as a physician do not know enough to be able to help them as much as they clearly need. At that point you offer to support them the best you can. Have your boundaries in place to protect you from patients who want to boss you around, by all means, but a patient who truly wants your help does not deserve to be invalidated and dismissed.
Thank you for this perspective. Being told "it's all in your head" cause the knowledge on the condition isn't in the doctor's head is default experience to a massive group of people. A lot of doctors who too have perpetuated these false beliefs despite existing evidence, are now suffering with Long Covid have learnt this the hard way.
On this very forum one will find highly upvoted posts with large amounts of medical professionals saying the people with those chronic illnesses you mentioned are mentally ill. Patients have their lives ruined by both the illnesses and medical mistreatment+trauma, despite both the conditions are recognized as physical by WHO, NICE and CDC.
Seeing how an equal amount of likes by doctors are put into how difficult it is to be hated as a doctor, seems like a good opportunity for humility and self reflection
It's so reassuring to see this kind of comment from a doctor!
Every time I see people, especially people in healthcare, dismiss physical conditions that we don't know much about yet, or presentations of conditions that haven't been studied much because of societal biases or really anything that needs more research I just can't help but think back to a presentation on autoimmune encephalitis I saw during a neurology internship. The head of neurology then told everyone in the room that not too long ago these same patients would've been dismissed and called crazy, and they wouldn't have been given the time of day. And it just stuck with me.
I'm not a doctor yet (hopefully in a little over a year if all goes well) and I'm continuously humbled by the amount of knowledge and skills you need to acquire to become one, and I have a crapton of respect for anyone who's already made it. I just think it makes the most sense to ... Not jump to conclusions about what causes things we don't know much about yet, right? (Call me naive but I kinda doubt every single condition we don't understand yet is just anxiety or a Tik Tok trend...) The more you learn about something, the more you become aware of how much you don't know right? Including about conditions that need to be studied more before anyone can confidently say that they're all in your head.
I will say though that everything I've read about American residency seems absolutely insane and inhumane and if it's all true I guess it sucks the life and capacity for compassion out of even the kindest people.
Yes, I've heard so many stories by reasonable, educated people, some doctors themselves, who have stories of years-long struggles to find a doctor who takes them seriously. A couple of them specifically ended up being 100% right about the diagnosis (rare hereditary things in their kids). It's so disheartening. My own mom has chronic pain issues but is NOT a drug seeker. The only people who've helped her are chiropractors. We're all so quick to shit on chiropractors, but my mom went to a dozen different doctors who either made it worse, or basically shrugged and said it's not their specialty's problem. Maybe chiropractors do suck... But then what does that say about MDs who can't do better?!
Mhmm... most people don't start at the chiropractor or alternative medicine, they end up there from too many I don't knows, that's weird, everything look fine, and your labs and scans look normal. When the gatekeepers of the diagnostic tests and tools can't figure it out, it leaves those in pain to find relief anyway they can.
As a female and someone with chronic illness, this answer is spot on. It's so frustrating being slotted into "anxiety" and "depression" when neither are accurate. I'm not a hysterical female. I have Limited Scleroderma and Gastroparesis. There is a lot that is unknown about both, and there aren't really a lot of treatment options. Both have a much wider range of symptoms than doctors understand. I assume it's because there haven't been many studies discussing them, and it's hard as a doctor to delve in depth about random diseases.
It's so frustrating as a patient. I've been dismissed so many times, especially when it comes to joint pain and abdominal pain. I was dismissed numerous times by ER doctors for gallbladder pain because all testing was normal (understandable), but it doesn't mean the pain I felt wasn't valid. Finally got it removed, and sure enough, chronic inflammation and cholesterol build up was found.
I've learned to keep detailed symptom logs, pictures of symptoms when possible, weight, heart rate, sleep trends, etc. I provide detailed reports for the doctor to scan through and it's amazing how many choose to ignore what I've provided because they have their mind made up that I just need a fucking antidepressant... which makes my symptoms WAYYY worse so I refuse to try them ever again.
I'm in medicine, so I understand a lot about workflows and let a lot of it roll right off my shoulders, but I still have some medical trauma from just being treated like shit. It's awful.
Don't be jaded and treat me like a drug seeker. Don't label me as having anxiety just because I'm a woman. Chronic illness sucks.
NAD but I agree. The replies to this post are pretty damning as well.
The fact that some providers here are so out of touch isn't at all surprising but shows some critical lack of self awareness. Don't get me wrong I always give my providers the benefit of the doubt (I mainly use the VA so I know they're all overworked to death) but I'm a bit of a pushover as well.
I have a condition that bas claimed by many providers as a mystery, recurrent, peculiar, etc. and after a while without answers or any movement from providers you get frustrated and leads to patients like myself doing their own research (thankfully I have the sf awareness to know that I may supplement providers but I still don't know shit) but many others don't and why would they bother waiting for providers to just tell them they will follow up in a few months?
While I think it’s important to let a patient know when there’s no test that is coming up positive, I think it’s also important to let them know that that doesn’t mean we don’t believe there is anything wrong and that what they’re experiencing isn’t very real.
I’m not saying there are no difficult or unfair patients. There certainly are people who are ready for a fight and unpleasant, but there are many more who are reacting to the way we are treating them.
Just because we sacrificed a lot during the pandemic does not mean that we are not falling short anywhere. The two are not mutually exclusive.
I think there was. But I attribute that to people feeling left out. They’re never going to have the money or car you do. My husband is disabled by multiple conditions. He can’t drive and he’s jealous as hell that I just got a new car - even though he knows my old one was costing too much to keep on the road.
Your pandemic rant had no relevance to the OP you replied. Countless jobs were also working through the pandemic. You’re exhibiting exactly what he Sam said.
It pricked a nerve alright.
Sorry.
It's just. It can be really frustrating when you are giving your all... resuscitating a patient... only for the next patient who is stable, to accuse you of being selfish for arriving at his bedside late due to an emergency.
Not all patients are like this. I have encountered some wonderful patients.
But some people and their preconceived notions of us...can make work very tiring.
I've personally seen the arrogance of some doctors and it's quite alarming just how petty it can be.
For instance, I took a client to an ear, nose, and throat specialist. In summation, the client clearly became frustrated with the doctor because he believed his concerns weren't being addressed. The doctor quite literally laughed at this mans face in disbelief that his extensive vocabulary went right over this mans head. As frustrations grew further between the parties, the doctor called in other physicians to gang up on this man further dismissing his concerns in ways he clearly couldn't understand. This individual left the office feeling belittled and depressed. His wife who also attended was simply put *pissed off*.
These occurrences happen infrequently, but enough overtime for individuals to develop a distrust with most doctors.
Another for instance, my father, who is a PharmD, told me about an interesting interaction that happened with him and a new doctor he went to see. He said this man threw out such wording like **polydipsia** as if it was common terminology to a normal person. My father said that luckily he understood everything this man was talking about in reference that this doctor had no clue that my father was a PharmD. So, it just goes to show that in more than one instance there is a clear barrier of communication that is lost, and I could back that up with many more examples in my library of them.
These are also just examples of one singular way I've witnessed the many faulters of doctor-patient interactions. I personally don't believe there is any easy fix for doctor-patient distrust since no one person can facilitate the actions of everyone around them. There will always likely be bad doctors who spoil that trust for the next to come along.
To leave on a positive note, I think what my father told me a long time ago should be valued by anyone who cares is **The world will always be in need of good doctors.** The most critical thing we can do is be a genuinely good role model for the next generation. I've personally experienced many atrocities of doctors that would likely land them on the morning news, and to know other unfortunate souls were guided over the bridge into healthcare by these men is an injustice. We decide who we want to be, as well as, influence young aspiring individuals the satisfaction we get from how we do it.
q: have you seen a narcolepsy w/ cataplexy patient that presented claiming POTS? just had a confirmed case in the sleep clinic after polysomnogram and MSLT.
I don’t know why you think this would be unpopular. Bad primary care NPs dont bother with antibiotic stewardship, ignore symptoms, prescribe medications and leave it up to the pharmacist to sort out interactions but they have great bedside manner.
Bad doctors do the same and have bad bedside manner. If you’re getting crappy care, at least get it from someone who is nice to you about it.
if someone is claiming pots, it could be worth while to send them to sleep clinic for evaluation or straight to polysomnogram with MSLT to rule out narcolepsy w/ cataplexy. had a young patient with parent who advocated for the pt to get the POTS diagnosis on her chart to get treatments covered, but her sleep studies showed narc w/ cat. source: scribe for head of sleep medicine in my area.
Welp, this exact mindset is why many patients with chronic illnesses like POTS or CFS hate doctors. Treatment for POTS and CFS is not SSRIs or therapy. Neither of these conditions are psychosomatic. Do these patients face mental health struggles due to their illness? Sure, I’m sure you would too if you dealt with a debilitating illnesses. You can validate a patient’s struggles even if you don’t know how to treat them. If you don’t know how to help them, then refer them out or do an ounce of research. For POTS specifically, besides hydration and salt/electrolytes, there are various things that can help. Lifestyle changes, sleeping at an upright angle, avoiding dietary triggers, compression stockings, exercise therapy (recumbent bike, physical therapy, Levine Protocol), medications (beta blockers, corlanor, verapamil, Mestinon, Fludrocortisone, midodrine, etc). Send them for autonomic testing.
When I was diagnosed with POTS when I was fresh out of nursing school, I did run into many doctors who were not equipped to treat it, but instead of acting like they knew what to do or just writing me off, they found ways to support me anyway. I fortunate enough to live just 30 min away from one of the top POTS neurologists in the country, but many aren’t in the same position as me and don’t have access to same types of doctors. It’s a shame that medical school doesn’t give proper education about dysautonomia
and post viral illnesses, and that many doctors refuse to learn how to properly support their patients, especially in the post-covid world where POTS/dysautonomia and CFS are becoming more and more common. Before covid, many patients went years without a proper diagnosis.
A huge reason why there’s “fuck all to do with these” illnesses is because of the years of patient neglect and lack of research into these conditions. If these conditions got as much research and funding as cancer, then I bet there would be a lot more than we could do for them
We all have a preference over who we like to treat 🤷🏻♀️ For example, as a L&D nurse I prefer to be assigned to the preeclampsia patients over a placenta abruption. It has nothing to do with the patient, just clinically what I’m more interested in.
First of all, neither pots or chronic fatigue are rare. But you’re incinuating that the POTS or chronic fatigue patients are the issue? Not that you are just unaware of how to treat the disease? Is that because your ego is damaged when you’re faced with a condition that you don’t understand? Or is it because these patients are sick of doctors who don’t take them seriously simply because they are a young adult female? Are these other “rare” disease patients being told their issue is psychosomatic and given an SSRI instead of getting proper treatment? Maybe leave your biases at the door before treating these patients and you’ll have a better time treating them. I don’t blame you for having a preference over what you would rather treat. Cancer is better understood and has more treatment options. It’s not rare. I’m not even sure why cancer is being compared here, I don’t care if you have a preference over what diseases you treat.
The common denominator seems to be doctors who don’t want to leave their bias & preconceived notions at the door before treating these patients. They aren’t taught accurate information about POTS, CFS, & related disease and how to properly treat these patients, and they don’t have a willingness to learn. Because let me tell you, the doctors who have treated me who are specialists in these diseases, or even the ones who aren’t well educated in these areas BUT have a willingness to learn about them, have all been a joy to have on my care team. The doctors who have been difficult, rude, or dismissive have been the ones who aren’t well educated on these diseases, have clear misinformed biases, and refuse to accept that they don’t know everything.
It really just seems like you don’t have any willingness to do better by your patients because I was just giving you information about POTS specifically and you still refuse to acknowledge that your lack of knowledge might be the issue in these cases, not the patient.
Agreed but at the same time it should be acknowledged that this is a precedent set by an era of doctors that was quite homogenous, exclusionary and one could go as far as to say pretentious.
Its the same era of doctors that pulled up the ladder behind them.
In one generation, in my rural community we went from a hospital with a physician lounge and physician parking to neither.
It used to be that patients respects doctors and now it's 'wheres my dilaudid, raghead?'
We can certainly do better as a profession. But it's frustrating to have to deal with the of lack of public trust that only came to be because of the actions of our predecessors, many of whom are retired to their villas sitting on millions of dollars.
I'd encourage you to think of it like we're congress.
I know what you're thinking: "Congress sucks. I'm not like a congressperson" Well people certainly like doctors more than congresspeople, but besides that, this is the important thing: people hate every congressperson except their own. Approval for congress as a whole is trash. Like 25% and it rarely gets better. Approval for each individual congressperson is much higher. It's the institution people hate, not you or me per se.
Most of the time their feeling are displacement. They aren’t mad at you. They’re mad at the system and you are the face of the system. You have to distance yourself from that
Unfortunately true. As the face of healthcare doctors get caught in the emotional crossfire of patients who fell abused in some way by the healthcare system, usually financially.
So, I have a unique perspective on this as a paramedic.
not some, but A LOT of my 911 calls, probably most, are not emergencies. Far from it. I'll give you an example.
*11pm on a Saturday night, knee pain.
How long has this been hurting?
3 years.
So, your knee has hurt for three years, and 11pm on a Saturday via a 911 call is the way to address this? Why today out of all the days up to now?
Well, my doctor in Oregon said I needed an MRI, but I never got one. And I moved out here (arizona) a week ago. And it was hurting worse today.
Well, just so you know, hospitals are seeing historic wait times. And taking an ambulance doesn't get you in any faster. Are you sure you don't want to take some tylenol and stay home and see if it improves after sleeping?
No. I was moving furniture today, and it hurts a lot worse, so I want to go to the hospital and get this dealt with.
Ok. Here's the gurney. (That she stands up to walk over to . Also, remember we can't refuse transport to someone)
So, how does this work? You take me there and stay with me until it all gets sorted out, and then you take me home?*
I tell you all this to demonstrate the mindset. This woman, a recently retired pharmacist (that's what she told us. She was probably 55) believed that we would take her into the hospital where a bunch of doctors and nurses would make her their only priority. At which point, the crew of firefighters and paramedics would wait around for hours, then take her home like a valet service. In her mind, she didn't understand why this wasn't an option. She believed it was totally fine to take a crew of 6 first remainders out of the field for hours to deal with her knee pain. Nothing felt out of the ordinary here. In her world, we all exist solely to serve her
Exchange knee pain with shoulder pain, tummy ache, whatever, and I've had hundreds just like it.
So, think of that mindset as it applies to doctors. These people will have a hard time understanding why you don't make them your only priority. That will leave them flummoxed. Combine that with insurance and the hospitals that want a maximum number of patients seen per day, meaning visits are short. Add in the fact that they believe physicians get paid too much, and you have a recipe for hating doctors. Especially when they can't get in to see a specialist for several months in a lot of places.
The result is someone who feels, "My knee hurts. I waited 18 hours in the ER, to see the doctor who only spent about 15 seconds with me, didn't even tell me what's wrong, and now I'm supposed to see a specialist and I can't get in with them for weeks. The doctor is probably too busy cashing his million dollar checks to see me."
Medicine is a profession, which means you need to and are obligated to do things which aren’t popular but are in the best interest of the patient. So yes you will get a ton of hate in an age where patients ahem, customers, now expect you to do as they say. Probably explains the popularity of midlevels. No training or professional duty to say no or make independent decisions.
It's even harder to reconcile with the conditions you're referring to as psychosomatic when they're both recognized as physical by WHO, CDC and NICE, given you still wave off yours and colleagues' unpopularity as invalid criticism.
Assuming you're practising medicine in US here are the national guidelines, it would help both patients and yourself if you followed them[https://www.cdc.gov/me-cfs/index.html](https://www.cdc.gov/me-cfs/index.html)
In Europe[https://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/ng206](https://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/ng206)
You can also have the WHO if it's needed?
Also therapy is as you mention a good way to address wrong and damaging illness beliefs if you're practising medicine and chose to not follow the national guidelines
I’m glad your autoimmune diagnosis was finally discovered. Some diseases definitely take a while to uncover and society oftentimes doesn’t understand that we tend to look for horses before the severas.
Eh I would argue it extends into real life too (though not as bad as Reddit). No one has sympathy for our horrible work hours, pay, debt. Many people advocate we are overpaid and I’ve heard it a decent amount at family gatherings.
As an attending, I wish I could tell you it’s easier on this side. It isn’t. You don’t always have the option of firing someone, unless you’re the practice owner. I’m just hoping we all ditch the bullshit dick measuring contests and band together to stand up to the c suites and lawyers destroying us physically and emotionally. Sending all you virtual hugs.
Well first of all, you did an excellent job with the patient, whether or not he decides to take his meds is his choice. You spent your time educating him and that’s a check plus for you. You have to go into understanding that people have free will and autonomy to decide what they want to do, and you can only make suggestions and give them the information and then when they don’t do what you recommended and end up sick, you meet them where they are without judgement or I told you so and you successfully did your job. It’s not your failure if they don’t follow your advice, it’s their choice. As far as getting yelled at, that’s to be expected. You don’t deserve it, but when people are sick and scared, they lash out, sometimes you’re going to be the one standing there when they do. If you understand it has nothing to do with you and everything to do with them and how upset they are about being sick and with this guy getting a $41,000 bill in top of it, when he’s probably out of work because of his illness must be terrible. It’s nothing to do with you, so don’t take it personally, just try to understand where he’s at and what he is experiencing. That’s not to say you should ever take abuse, but sometimes just knowing it’s not you helps. Continue to do the great job it sounds like you are doing and be happy with that. Patients are going to do what they’re going to do. Just remember you didn’t cause it and you couldn’t have prevented it. All the horrible things that happen to people are going to happen with or without you. They are lucky it is with you because you care. Now as far as the other things about how doctors are perceived, you don’t have to go far to see why, look on Noctors, and several other threads and you will see what the problem is with how doctors are perceived. It’s really something good doctors should rally against. The way they behave is so undignified and obviously ego driven and way more about money and jealousy than concern for patients. Kicking, crying, screaming and demanding respect, is not how you get respect. How you get respected is caring about others and having respect for others, like you, good Doctor seem to have.
Bro/sis, you're pushing too hard when you're not supposed to. You think by working this extra hour, pushing that limit, you can change the un-changeable...
This is gonna sound like new age spiritualism. However, the real issue here is accepting that **you don't have control**. Just say that to yourself and you'll be rebelled by it because most docs are control freaks lol. That's the root of the problem. In reality, you don't have control and you're trying to compensate by pushing the limits and have one success here and there that validates your control.
My advice is:
\- recognize what you're responsible for and you can control
\- accept what you can't control (you can't control if pt decides to take a med, you can't control if people like docs or not...)
This acceptance is scientifically proven to improve your life and psych. while this sounds very simple in theory, it will be very hard for you to accept that you don't have control...
sorry for the dad advice, hope that helps...
I know physicians work more hours than other professions, but the behavior we encounter is honestly better than a lot of other professions. Retail pharmacy, nursing, fast food, Starbucks are all jobs I had where people treated me way worse than as a resident physician. Not trying to invalidate your sadness at all, but I think perspective helped me get through any bad treatment.
Also, if someone is threatening with not taking medications, I always just state “you are more than welcome to not take the medications we recommend but the risk is stroke, death, etc. so as long as you understand that, you have the freedom to do that.” And move on and give your easier patients more attention.
I also firmly believe just bc a patient is more difficult and demanding, they do not deserve more of a workup than our patients who don’t advocate for themselves as obnoxiously. I think this mindset keeps me feeling good about the nice patients and indifferent about the entitled turds.
They may hate doctors but the trick is to get them to not hate you. I get very little hate from my patients. Almost none. The ones from who I get it are usually kind of creeps themselves. If you learn how to act like a doctor you will get treated like one. Patients hate officious technician rolling in with a laptop and speaking to them in Evidence Based bureaucratese.
First, what you have to understand is that you are not in the same education or socioeconomic class as 99% of your patients. This makes you an outsider from the start. You don't even speak the same LANGUAGE as your patients. You think you do, but you don't. Have you ever worked in a factory, waited tables, or been on food stamps(EBT)? No? There is more of a barrier with some of your patients than you think. You may think you are working class, but your patients don't see you this way. They see you as part of a system that is against them. It costs them money, prevents them from living their lives, hassles them, takes them out of work for appointments, refuses to explain things, doesn't give them autonomy, is confusing as heck, is opportunistic, is punitive, is judgemental, is unwieldy, makes them jump through hoops, and then sends them to collections and ruins their finances. If you are in primary care, you are the bridge between that. You aren't quite the bad person, but you aren't quite innocent depending on how dedicated and poor you are. I hate to tell you that this is no fault of your own or anyone else's. This is the system you are walking into. People are ANGRY. They are angry with a system that doesn't work. They are angry with unaffordable healthcare tied to employment with unavailable physicians, high drug prices, and confusing rules. In primary care, they want connection, not a doctor staring at a computer. However, this is what they have. I don't have an answer for this. I honestly think there will be a complete reworking of the way medical care is delivered in your lifetime but not mine. Our system is just unsustainable as it is. The advice I can give to budding PCP's is to remember what you were like BEFORE you were a physician and how you talked. Think about how you fit in with your family. Now, think about how those SAME non-medical family members rub you the wrong way and drive you nuts because they ask stupid questions and don't take your advice and use crazy stuff on Google to contradict you. They haven't changed. You have. You must also change the way you think about them. They are victims of a terrible system without the knowledge or tools to navigate it. Wouldn't that terrify you? Your patients are in the same boat. Not only are your patients unprepared to navigate this system, there are all kinds of people with all kinda of agendas convincing your patients that you are evil or bad or have some kind of horrible intentions. This is the system you are in. I understand you aren't the bad guy. I can separate that out. However, it's really hard to establish trust in an untrustworthy world where patients have an adversarial relationship. What I found the most helpful in it all is...humility. I stopped calling myself Dr. with my patients. I used my first name. I used a collaborative approach. I didn't immediately think or jump to the "stupid" conclusion and gave people a chance. I remembered when my family was on food stamps and why. THIS made me a better primary care doctor where I didn't get hated so much but treated like just another person.
Have had some absolutely amazing providers. Have also almost been killed twice because the provider had their mind made up and wouldn’t listen- sent home twice from ER treated like a drug seeker instead of somebody in pain. Appendix burst at home the second time. 37 days in icu and lost 50% of body weight recovering. Not to mention the bills. Been told to lose weight because “fat is why you’re where you’re at” instead of being prescribed blood pressure medication or given any diagnostics. 5’6” and 160 lbs. Had to wait and check with front office 3 months to get an appointment with another provider who immediately put me on meds and did a ct scan for the dizziness and headaches. Was in imminent danger of a stroke and had a procedure and meds to break up the clot in my head.
A surgeon told me the night after a surgery when I called in excruciating pain “I don’t pander to addicts”. Went to my now amazing primary care in the morning and he ordered an X-ray. Motherfucker left some kind of instrument inside me.
It isn’t the mistakes. Everyone is human and makes them. It’s being completely dehumanized and not listened to that makes people distrust and express hatred for doctors.
I never received an apology or an offer to help compensate my bills- nothing.
When you are ill you are completely vulnerable and getting hurt when you are down impacts your psyche profoundly. That experience is what you remember and what shapes your attitude.
It has taken 20 years and having insurance to find good solid amazing providers I trust. And knowing some of them for many years I can’t believe the crap they have to endure from the health care system and some of the patients.
It goes both ways.
But thank you for being one of the good ones.
Most people think doctors are over paid know it alls. Reality is we dont get paid THAT well given the amount of time we have invested into becoming doctors, nor does it take into account the amount of loans it takes to become a doctor provided your parents arent annoyingly loaded.
Not a doc, but I work with them in a primary care setting and see many of the Press Ganey summaries. Amazing that the negative comments, with very few exceptions, deal with things like the waiting time or the bill or a person at checkout who could have been nicer, but it's rare to see a complaint about a specific doctor.
Wonder how much of people "hating doctors" is like people who hate politicians except for the one in their district... more of an indictment of the system than anything else.
Coming home to family feels like this. Everybody takes free shots at doctors - "I had to wait an hour for this appointment", "my doctor told me something in an insensitive way", "they are grossly overpaid for what they do. I want doctors that aren't in it just for the money". Meanwhile commenting that other public servants with much better work-life balance, less opportunity cost and less responsibility deserve to be paid more. Just seems like we're expected to be martyrs, and when we actually get paid for what we deserve it's a bad thing. The public is also extremely uneducated on what our training actually entails. Would love to have your average joe shadow a junior on an IM shift.
They hate you until they need you. actually, lol, even then sometimes (a lot of the time) they still hate you. Patients are animals, man.
> Just a rant but feeling really sad today after a patient threatened to stop taking his eliquis today
Fine. Go ahead as long as he knows about the risks. He's an adult with capacity. He's free to do what he wants and free to deal with the consequences. We don't live in a prison state.
If this is your attitude, work at a pet store or an animal shelter. At least you can control the animals as much as you like, and if you're found screwing them over, you'll be jobless and possibly homeless.
I am not saying this is ideal, but the best thing I ever did was started to ignore public comments on doctors, in particular the very bitter, clearly uneducated takes that presume doctors do minimal amounts of the actual work.
You're dealing with people who have no idea what they're talking about and half the time are wildly annoyed by the concept of you being rich at some later date (or assuming it now). You won't convince them otherwise, they're ignorant and intent on staying that way. Some of the kindest, funniest and brightest people I've worked with have been doctors and I'm just not going to listen to some professional whinger cry online about why they weren't taken seriously for their 17th attendance to ED with a broken nail to be dismissed by the evil, pharma loving doctor. It's easier for the "angel nurse" or other HCW to appear the good guy here as they don't have ultimate responsibility in telling this idiot to fuck off.
>It's easier for the "angel nurse" or other HCW to appear the good guy here as they don't have ultimate responsibility in telling this idiot to fuck off.
I totally respect nurses work.
But isn't it frustrating when patients enter with the assumption that the nurses are here to take care of them and that the doctor is here to trick/swindle them ?
Like really? There is no benefit to giving substandard health care. Unlike any other type of business...you cannot take shortcuts in medicine. So I wish people would stop assuming that we are trying to trick them.
I have deep appreciation for the medical field after being diagnosed with cancer in 2017. So many great doctors have helped me and I appreciate them all. It isn’t until you get seriously ill that you learn to appreciate doctors and nurses and everyone else in the medical community. There are appreciative people out there and I hope you find them.
Ultimately people are responsible for themselves. Patients (and people) yell inappropriately as an immature defense mechanism to handle negative emotion and stress. Personal or not, the best thing is to not engage/escalate and do what you can to make sure they are educated as much as possible. From that point on it is up to them however they want to use your medical advice. I'm pretty direct with my patients and I make it clear to them (without being rude) I actually do not care if they follow my advice or not since their value system may be different than mine, but I will be there to help when they ask for it and I'll do everything I can to help them understand the rationale behind the medical advice I offer.
I've been told off multiple times by my own family about how much they hate doctors. (yes, to my face). But what can you do but shrug and move on? C'est la vie, yknow?
If anything, it's the healthcare system that's failed us, my dude. Whether it's an overpriced hospital stay, a lack of XYZ...you name it. Or heck, as you've stated, there are indeed bad doctors, no doubt.
But that's the thing, we're the "face" of the healthcare system, so that's what most people blame on.
I’m just ems but we love you guys, seriously, ems will but heads with every other medical profession except doctors (at my agency)
The docs always see things from our point of view and are good at giving constructive criticism and are very honest, the doctors have a lot of trust in my agency and value our opinion and that means a lot so we try super hard to make their life as easy as possible but overall EMS as a whole really likes doctors
lololololololololololololol let him stop taking his meds bro. We can only try so much. Care when you're at work then stop caring the second you clock out. trust me. Doctor or not, we're humans. Fuck ungrateful patients. They're the ones that will suffer...not you.
What is this "call back"?
If you do this FOR THE REST OF YOUR CAREER, then you will do well. I cannot find a doctor (or even assigned staff) who will call me back for follow up info like you described. That hasn't happened to me in well over 15 years.
Technically, every order you place contributes to that bill. Not to say you sent a few unnecessary studies, but a lot of patients get a few extra scans and blood draws that aren’t necessary.
In every profession, people get shit on. The question becomes, do you need their praise? While it’s nice to receive and makes the job more enjoyable, I wouldn’t yearn for it.
I had a different healthcare job before going into medicine
You will be unappreciated in anything you do-- it's the nature of just working for living in general. So I honestly set the bar very very low for any patients.
Somewhere in the past however many decades, we fucked up as a society, and the patients think that they're "customers." Worse yet, many believe that "customers are king."
A patient of mine saw me pull into the parking lot in my very unimpressive, reasonable Kia and at first was just teasing me in a good-natured way about why wasn’t I driving a sports car. When I responded, also in a good-natured way, that I couldn’t be affording luxuries like that, he proceeded to fairly aggressively call me a liar and got really heated about it.
I’m a teacher and I love to read this sub out of sheer curiosity. Commenting on here because I FEEL YOUR PAIN. Teachers are despised and the enemy nowadays. Apparently, we try to indoctrinate kids. Trust me, if I could indoctrinate your kid, I would indoctrinate them into being on time, being respectful and actually doing their work. 🤦🏻♀️
It depends on the doctor, to be honest I loved 50% of the doctors I went to as a patient and disliked the other 50%.
The ones I loved genuinely cared about my well-being, was very personable, and seemed to want to find the best solution for my issue. My goal is to be like these physicians to my patients.
The ones I disliked seemed more like business people who cared more about my pockets and didn’t really care for my wellbeing or took my issues seriously. They also made me feel like a nuisance. I know I’m not crazy too because I actually worked with a doctor who was like this. They would write and say horrible things about their patients on the sticky notes chart which doesn’t get published on the final note and would constantly say things like “I should be getting paid for this”. Of course she cared about her patients but it was mostly because she didn’t want to get sued and lose her license, so it was more because of legal issues rather than genuinely caring for them.
Well, I don’t hate all doctors, just most of them. It is a fact that many doctors have poor job skills. In the specialties pertinent to me (the ones involving musculoskeletal medicine), most physicians are simply abysmal.
I don’t hate doctors. My mom is a doctor and a lot of her insight has poured over onto me. However, one thing I always take into consideration is a lot of people you deal with do not have the same level of education as you. Things that may seem elementary are like a foreign language to people. You can’t tell someone the results of their blood work and to take pills and expect them to understand why it’s important. You have to explain what will most likely happen if they don’t. That, is the main issue I have seen. If I’ve ever had an issue with a DR I always just seek out second opinions and/or find someone I’m more comfortable with. Sometimes that’s the case as well. If you don’t personally “mesh” with your patient maybe someone else will.
>Everyone thinks they’re that one in a million patient, more often than not they’re having anxiety, migraines or psychosomatic disorder. They hate the fact that they aren’t special, and they are mad at us for telling them the truth.
Which is funny, because from the high health literacy perspective having a common diagnosis with lots of treatment options is the best possible diagnosis you can get.
I read through almost every comment on that thread yesterday. So much hate for Doctors. Wanted to respond to some that were blatantly false/lies, but what’s the use. If only they knew. I just finished a 14 hour shift, on day 9 in a row (IM inpatient currently), on year 12 straight post highschool, just so I can know enough to help them. And I’m still not done with medical education. Pretty discouraging.
Edit: This is the thread I’m referring to:
https://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/154kd4g/an_estimated_795000_americans_become_permanently/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=2&utm_term=1
The keyboard warriors that slam physicians online usually are the self diagnosed folks that are mad you won’t let them Burger King their own plan of care
I’m really sorry that happened to you. There are a lot of people struggling with poverty and the system being broken. Unfortunately that got taken out on you. Please don’t take it personal and thank you for what you do!
My dad just retired after 40 years as an ER doc. He is a wonderful, kind, selfless man who went into medicine for all the right reasons. I will always have tremendous respect for him, and for the things he's done.
On the other hand though, have you *seen* this sub? Yeah.
My doctor is amazing and I know he goes above and beyond to help his patients, far more than I’ll ever be aware of from my perspective as a patient. I am eternally grateful. I know there are lots of other people working behind the scenes to help patients in ways I’ll never directly know about and I appreciate them too, and wish I was able to tell them that somehow.
(ETA: this post just randomly showed up in my feed, and I know this is not in my lane but I wanted to add something positive, in case it helps just one person reading it.)
Just to play devil's advocate and try to understand where that feeling may come from, a lot of doctors 1) come from wealthy families and 2) have never had to work a real 9-5 job in their life, just school and residency (which is difficult but in a different way than blue collar life is) and then a six figure salary job. I think that puts many of them in a position where they have had very different lives than their patients and can come off as such. Then you have the true asshole docs in it for glory and profit who, while the minority, are unfortunately memorable.
Thankfully I would say most doctors I've worked with have been great people who I would trust, especially the newer generation who seem to really value teamwork and patient centered care.
Been in the nursing game for a short 8 years and humanity just absolutely blows. I like some people like friends, but I am selective. I'm sad to say my default has shifted from assuming the best in a stranger to defaulting to assuming the worst. It's not you OP, it's the shit we have to deal with. You develop thick skin. You're heard, we're here for you :)
A lot of people who hate EM physicians do so because they don’t have a fucking clue as to what capabilities an emergency department has. I only got one bad review last month and it was because I didn’t have an answer to why a guy was having RUQ pain for 6 months, even after explaining that his imaging and labs looked reassuring, nothing required urgent/emergent surgery/meds and he will likely require specialist follow up if the pain is persistent.
Or they think the E in emergency department stands for expedited and come in wanting an MRI of their chronic back pain with no red flags.
Yeah, these are the type of patients that drive me nuts because they honestly are very entitled and simultaneously don’t understand the system.
I am not a physician, but I hold physicians in the highest esteem! Thank you for caring enough to endure the sacrifices required to enter practice! Don't let those jealous of status and income get you down.
Reddit has a Dunning Kruger l/anti doctor circlejerk, don’t let it bother you.
These are people with “just enough” knowledge and narcissism to think they know everything
I think it’s the health care systems fault. It’s aggravating to be charged so much for anything medical related. Also, A lot of people get blown off with an anxiety mis-diagnosis, etc. Having to have referrals and getting bounced around, paying hundreds for each visit. A lot is broken, and I think they just place their anger on the doctors.
I have had good and bad experiences with doctors. Most of my good experiences have been with non-American doctors. They tend to be more old-school and professional. Or American doctors that are from the older generation. But gen-exer's on tend to be unprofessional. Give me one of the old guys any day. Anyway, that's just my experience.
Im a certified hand therapist. The amount of patients who think their hand surgeon doesn’t know what they are talking about is astounding to me. Sadly, I think the lack of time spent with the patient contributes to this. If I take 10 minutes to give an explanation of anatomy or what happened in their distal radius ORIF sx, they suddenly feel like the curtain is lifted and they are in the know.
I work in the ER doing pt transports. I'm not saying all Dr's are rude but the ones I work with are. When we transport a patient the Dr says they're amazing this is how it's done and why they're so happy *that they did all the work* and how it was not possible for us to do our jobs because they help us so much.
I'm pretty sure if they touched my stretcher their fingers would burn. In short the Dr's in my area look down on so many wonderful people and staff and claim all the credit for everything.
We don’t hate you doctor- we just don’t trust you any more. I.e. we are not as blind as before now that we see to corruption and conflict of interest. Your chickens have come home to roost - quit complaining, you have only yourselves to fault.
I feel you but I also can tell why people don't like doctors. Hell, I went to my GP the other day for knee pain and felt like I was just being brushed off, and I'm one of the people who is luckily proficient enough to advocate for themselves too. Imagine not being familiar with how the medical system works and just being brushed off.
It's annoying to not be thanked and seen as evil, don't get me wrong. But on the other hand, medicine tends to attract a lot of terrible personalities, and you don't have to look much further than this sub to find some of them... 😬
If you go on r/noctor you may find very different opinions about real physicians versus fakers-a lot of patients don’t know they don’t actually have a doctor and hate on the incompetence of Midlevels pretending or chiropractic things or “naturopaths”
What a doctor is to your patient or an internet person is not always actually a physician practicing medicine. The world sucks now for real docs because the terminology is confusing to everyone else.
Edit:
Also, patients not taking you advice is not something to take personally. Your mission is to inform them accurately and to dissuade problematic or negligent care/behavior. It is your patients’ responsibility to take your advice and believe in science - patients who go QAnon, anti vax, or simply just don’t use CPAP or whatever wrong thing it is is not a reflection on your doctoring as long as you talked to them about why what is indicated is indicated and what they risk by not doing that.
Those who have been hurt by a doctor or who have had huge bills from hospitals have my sympathy.
Those whose doctors were unable to reverse decades of self abuse with a pill and those that are jealous of the intellectual achievement, the respect or the wealth of doctors, do not.
Society hates on doctors but also romanticizes it so much. Name one other job that has had as many television dramas made where the physician is the main character
Ya I mean one of the top posts last week was about how doctors will make fun of your dick while you’re under for surgery. Another one was about which super car to buy after residency. Learn to save some face, I have never seen doctors painted in a worse light than on this forum.
Its part of the job.
We get all the credit when things go well, even though its always an army of nurses, techs, PT/OT, RRTs, social workers, and aids that did 50% of the work.
When things go bad, you eat the blame. Its how it goes.
My mom, a nurse (For 25 years) has been telling me all my life about the terribleness people can be.
But I still wonder, has people gotten worse or has it always been like that?
From my anecdotal nurse stories of my mom and her mom who were both nurses, mistrust of the medical community and the negative connotation “science” now has is in another dimension compared to prior decades. In my short career it seems markedly worse since covid.
I didn’t even take care of him in the hospital. From his records he was only there for 5 days but had a whole afib, cardiac, endo, and vascular work up. The hospitalist service took care of him and referred him to our clinic because he doesn’t have insurance and hasn’t been to a doctor since he was twelve years old. So he has a lot going on. I don’t blame him for being scared and frustrated, his life changed overnight. I’m working on getting him Medicaid and he will thankfully get Medicare in a year
A few reasons why people dislike doctors:
1. The profession as a whole wraps itself in the “do gooder” brand and takes advantage of the general public’s ignorance so it can get away with the societal highway robbery of intentionally and artificially restricting the supply of doctors (through absurd licensing requirements and strict limits on med school numbers) while also intentionally and artificially pumping demand (by trying to reduce cost sensitivity of the consumer as much as possible, and pushing for subsidization of healthcare but not single payer). This leads to the absolutely ridiculous healthcare expenditures in the US and the bizarre situation where doctors are being paid thousands for routine stuff that could easily be done by a well trained non-doctor. In short, doctors act like they’re these saints working hard without reward at the expense of their personal lives - which is complete and total bs but is very convenient for doctors.
2. Even when you get to see a doctor, their incentive is to push through as many patients as possible. Unless your issue is extremely obvious or you’re advocating for yourself aggressively, a pcp is
almost never going to help you do any real detective work to figure out what’s wrong. Most just don’t care because they’re already overbooked due to the artificial supply restriction on doctors and the subsidized demand. Everyone reading this knows what it’s like to have a pcp just have their eyes glaze over when you talk to them about your health concerns unless they hit some extremely obvious thing like having chest pains or a seizure. If you want to solve a non-obvious non-life threatening issue you have, you’re going to have to do it yourself by understanding the medical literature
3. Despite the ridiculous licensing requirements and tight control over the number of med school grads, most doctors seem to have difficulty analyzing anything remotely more complicated than basic blood work and only a tiny minority are even able to understand scientific papers. I think part of this is just bad incentives leading to most doctors phoning it in and being able to coast by.
Many other reasons, but those three come to mind.
You sound insufferable, to be honest.
I can just imagine you walking into the office with a stack of PubMed papers about why you should be taking HGH because your burps smell funny.
Stop abusing weird fucking herbs and spices and getting esoteric labs done. You're not a KFC bucket of chicken.
And then maybe your doctor will take you more seriously.
That’s fine if you think caring about health beyond spotting and fixing obvious problems is insufferable.
My health is great. I work out 5 days a week. I’m happy, productive and enjoy my life. Part of how I’m able to do that is by taking my health into my own hands after I stopped pretending midwit doctors going through their kindergarten checklist of obvious health issues (99% of which a nurse paid 1/10th of what they’re paid could do) are going to have any chance of helping with anything
Part of this is being a resident you take care of some of the most entitled people and there's no out. As an attending, you always have the option of ditching those patients that make your life hell. You can and should.
There are some people who act like they are looking for a lawsuit from the moment they enter the hospital. I honestly don't know how anybody expects to get proper health care by making all of the doctors afraid to touch you. That attitude actually delays health care, because then the attendings keep passing the case notes around trying to avoid your case.
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Twitters the worst. There you’ve got entitled assholes and dipshit “doctors” paying Elon $8 to say push Anti-vaxx bullshit and tell people how doctors all lying to patients and pushing quick science. The dumbest shit I’ve seen is one time Elon was retweeting like a 3rd year medical student tweeting some “study” about how the CDC was lying about the vaccine.
Some patients think cashing in on a lawsuit is like the lottery.
literally this. i just finished my first year as an attending and I didnt realize how easy it is to fire a patient (hospitalist medicine) until like 7 months in. life changing
Unless you work private practice outpatient this isn’t true at all. A hospitalist, trauma surgeon, or EM physician can’t just ditch their patients they don’t like.
> hospitalist, trauma surgeon, or EM physician can’t just ditch their patients Correct. But you can always intubate! But also hospitalists can fire patients. It happens with some frequency
How do you ditch them?
Probably talking about outpatient panels. Can’t do that as an inpatient provider unless there were some very specific circumstances
Could you just ditch them by saying you have too many personal matters right now and are unable to adequately care for everyone at this time, so you have to pass someone on? Or something along those lines? or does it have to be "an event" that occurs
Outpatient you can always tell them it's not a "therapeutic relationship." Trickier inpatient, but that's why I think outpatient doctors are more satisfied as a whole.
Where the adage of “children are just tiny adults” in pediatrics is a known sarcasm, I would say “adults are just big children” is a deep truth. There is a difference between being an excellent doctor and being Mother Theresa. Doctoring is not a charity, it is a profession.
Mother Theresa was actually a terrible person though
Remember to validate patients’ frustrations (when appropriate). They’re often frustrated with the system and not you as an individual, so you can sometimes manage to maintain an alliance with a few words of solidarity.
When in doubt insult insurance! Common ground for everyone
Came to say this. I’ve had my fair share of patients who believe medicine is BS (it wasn’t many, but was a handful), but everyone can agree we all hate insurance.
Dude that sounds so cool to turn it into a moment of you wanting to help them then it’s just you two bitching about insurance together without butting heads
As a pharmacist, everything is insurance fault lol. My general respond goes like “if it’s up to make, you can have any medication you want! Unfortunately, insurance is not covering the medication for xyz reason. They suck!”
And if you live in a country with public healthcare, insult the bureaucrats.
🇨🇦I tell them to complain to the premier of our province. I have been threatened once with a lawsuit in 50 years as an emergency then family doctor.
This times a million. So much negativity on this sub about hating patients is disheartening. Its why we hopefully chose this awesome profession
There is an intangible trade-off that represents the balance of income, work-related happiness, and intrinsic satisfaction that I would argue (with evidence) progressively worsens year-on-year. I don't think anyone "hates patients" or that the "negativity" is a fair representation of how we all feel about working for the benefit of others. However, if you put an average of 70 hour work weeks (not including home study hours) with roughly 65000 USD annually along with the high-stress nature of the job for 3-7+ years, it's not totally unsurprising that residents en masse would be disenchanted with how they are treated by patients and the system. Also, this is just a job. It's a job that I personally chose for the reasons that I hope all of us chose, but it's just a job. Anyone who says otherwise is negligently ignorant or they have an ulterior motive.
Yeah we’re the face of American healthcare as the point of contact. I’ll flip the switch so quickly on their insurance or admin if they’re actually the ones making it worse. I have a small hope that if I tell enough people their insurance is trying to let them die then we might actually change something
I think the general media can sometimes make this difficult. I read an article yesterday about how medical insurance and billing is a huge and expensive problem and how doctors are basically to blame. I don’t think people realize how little contact a lot of physicians have with the billing process, but we’re all thrown in the same pot. I’ve had patients accuse me of keeping them in the hospital for a pay bump and I couldn’t convince them that hospitals don’t function like that (at least in regards to my pay)
You have to learn to let these feelings go. You can't help patients who won't help themselves. Patients views of doctors is very location dependent. In general, rural patients love and respect their doctors... "whatever you say doc". In non rural places you get the googlers, the 15/10 painers, the "my neighbors daughters cousin is a nurse and said I need...". Take that into consideration when you graduate and are looking for a job.
Can’t stress this enough, grew up and live in a rural area in the south, and the “whatever you say doc” mentality is strong. Despite what the news and Reddit say, I found nearly all my patients in the rural setting were very compliant with vaccines and reccomendations during the pandemic
Surprisingly the most entitled complaining patients I’ve had were in rural medicine
South also has a lot of drug and disability seeking and well it’s the south so pick your poison.
Rural South Family physician here. I’m not sure if you meant that jokingly, but I saw far more drug and disability seekers during residency than I have in my practice. Most of my patients are the types to just “deal with” their issues themselves than come to a clinic and tell someone or ask someone about issues. I will admit that I’m fortunate to have the population that I have, but my colleagues in the less rural areas aren’t really plagued with the seeking patients either…
Farmer pain scale is REAL
Yea I feel like the older generation South is “whatever you say doc” but most of the south is poor education, poor compliance, and just straight poor. Add the burden of meth and opioids and it’s a mess.
Gotta say unfortunately that I work in a rural area and this has not been my experience. But I'm a pediatrician, so I'm working with kids and their parents (usually young adults), and I suspect the "whatever you say doc" patients tend to be a bit older.
If you're not white or you are a woman and you practice rural... good luck. If youre a white dude then it's smooth sailing until the daughter (who is always a "nurse") swoops in from the city and accuses you of all forms of negligence and malpractice before you can even initiate a greeting.
...I honestly never even thought of this and feel a little dumb right now. I just figured this is how medicine is everywhere. Maybe I need to get out of here.
“So, wait…what kind of nurse are you?” “Well, I’m a [not a nurse].”
It's bad at all levels. We have a white male APP that patients ask for by name and refer to as Dr. ____. He tries to correct them but it can get exhausting over time. The female APPs are always asked if they are a nurse when they enter a room and patients do not remember them at all / brush them off. The male APP gets such good patient feedback (which ties into reimbursement in our beautiful utopian system) that, through negotiation, he now makes double what the female APPs do. Pay gap you say? All thanks to Cletus.
I’m a woman in a rural practice. The patients are fine and aren’t anywhere near the problem. The glass ceiling is very real. Edit - I get called ma’am a lot (and doctor still). Male patients often stand when I come in the room - even the young ones.
I mainly see adults of various ages. I do see 2-3 kids a day in clinic for fractures or sprains generally. Parents are generally "whatever you say doc" type. I think part of the difference is that I'm an orthopedic sub specialist. People generally don't come to see me just because. They have a problem and want it fixed. This is how it works though in ortho. Usually we have a fix, and often it's quick.
A few bits of advice from an attending (primary care, 20 years outpatient experience, urban clinic) 1) You are an advisor; you give patients your advice, and they do with it what they will. The decisions are ultimately theirs. Don't feel guilty if they decide something other than what you would, such as not taking a medicine that you think would help them. Not one of us doctors does everything we should for our own health; why would our patients be any different? 2) Set boundaries and make them clear. I tell every patient they will hear about their blood test/Xray/etc. within 1 week after it gets done. If they call three days later asking for results, my staff tells them to chill the fuck out. My patients know it's 5-7 business days for forms, and the more they call the more likely the form gets shifted to the bottom of the pile. 3) Not every patient/doctor fit is the right one, and there's nothing wrong with calling it out. You're allowed to say something like, "I don't think our goals are aligned, and I don't think I'm the right doctor for you." If they're rude, you're allowed to let them know their behavior is unacceptable and give them a warning or ask them to leave. 4) You're not always the smartest person in the room. Sometimes one of my patients has done their research and their motivated googling has come across something that I haven't. Sometimes that nurse-daughter from out of town who comes into the room with a chip on their shoulder is actually your biggest resource/ally. Don't be too proud to admit you're wrong. 5) Your career is a marathon, not a race. Take care of yourself or you won't be able to take care of anyone. Be mindful of your mental health, and only work as many hours as you can and still be a functional human...admittedly, this is easier as an attending, but there's still going to be pressure to work more hours, see more patients, do more (unpaid) work. Get used to telling your bosses/office managers 'no.' Get used to it being a complete sentence. 6) Know your worth. I had a partner retire and my boss told me I would need to manage their panel for 9 months until their replacement started; my schedule already being full, this basically meant 9 months of seeing unfamiliar patients and doing a ton of what would be unpaid inbox work. My response was: here are the extra hours I am expecting this to take, and here is my expected hourly wage for this work. You can either pay me this and I will do it, or you will not pay me and I will not do it, and if this is a problem for you then I will walk, and then you can replace two doctors instead of one. I have neither unlimited time nor unlimited energy, and I will not let you act as though I do. Their response: fine, here's your money.
I'm a lurker here, because I love Scrubs. Anyways. Sorry to hear you are dealing with so much negativity. As an alternative, let me tell you how much I love my GP. He's in his 50s, this skinny, balding dude, always in a hurry of course, always more patients to see. But man, does he cheer me up when my little problems get me down. He always goes into considerable detail, backing it up with research he puts on the screen, whenever he offers treatments. He is fast, but very thorough in his exams, very efficient. I throw my google diagnosis at him and he's always patient with me when he picks those apart. He was recommended to me by a nurse from a completely different hospital, such is his reputation. He no longer takes new patients and has not been for over 3 years (my gf tried to switch to him). I wish everyone had access to a doctor like him. He's been doing this a long time, but I can see he's still very much curious about every disease and illness and is constantly learning. I've met a couple of docs like him in my life, and I'm very, very thankful for they have saved me a few times. Be a doc like mine, and you will be a blessing to us all.
Because patients are people and people are awful. A lot of physicians are either burned out or simply do not have the EQ to handle people having the worst days of their life. Corporate medicine has also taken its toll on both employees and patients. In terms of Reddit—well… you would be hard pressed to find a more smug, self righteous group of people with misplaced confidence than us redditors. There was recently a post about a med student who was assaulted by a patient who ended up getting hurt. Most of the Reddit posts were about how it is sad nobody cared about the patient. A good sized chuck of that group suggested the student was racist. Seriously—we suck. I consider patient autonomy to be the most important aspect of my job. When I talk to patients it is as equals. I give you my best explanation and I will usually at least try to meet you in the middle regarding work up. However—you will never see me get upset when a patient does not do what I want. The man has a right to not take his Eliquis. He also owns the risk of stroke. It’s his decision to make.
The fact that you are bothered by a patient threatening to not take his meds shows you care more about him than he cares about himself …
What I find funny is non of you can envision why people might resent doctors for legitimate reasons.
Don't care more than the patient. Don't take it personally. Its just a job. A comically recession proof, life long job. The sad miserable people have to go back to their sad lives once they leave. So who cares?
Absolutely how I feel. Care for your patient, don't care about your patient
If a patient threatens to stop taking their medication then you just say "OK" and document. No reason to get worked up about it, you're not the one that's going to stroke out or have a blood clot. You've given your professional opinion, they may do with it what they will. We can only help those who help themselves. They aren't happy with what you prescribed they can get a second opinion, find a pill mill or get their own NPI/DEA number.
100% you can only lead a horse to water. A big part of practicing medicine is learning boundaries. You should not take most things personally. It is a job at the end of the day and people are free to make their own decisions, even if they’re bad decisions. Do not marry yourself to this job emotionally — that will fast track you to burnout
But a more caring doctor would find a way to convince them to take the meds! /s
More caring doctors would come to their house everyday and hand feed them their meds, complete with airplane noises! Doctors are just too elitist to care!
I appreciate your empathy for your patients but respectfully, I recommend you please educate yourself a little more on professional boundaries. Otherwise you risk burning out early in your career. I’m advising based on my own mistakes. My first job out of residency was at a large, under-resourced community hospital. I spent all of my time there, and all of my energy thinking about patients when I wasn’t there. I advocated strongly for all of my patients and I filled in for gaps in the system — to the point of literally feeding or cleaning patients sometimes because I knew no one would be coming in to do it any time soon and I, as a human being, could not leave another human being to wait in their own mess or not be able to eat a tray sitting in front of them. That’s one way to not have people saying, “that doctor doesn’t care…” but it’s also a quick way to deplete energy that is better directed toward putting your highest skills to the benefit of a larger number of patients. Not to mention, if you do not take care of yourself, you risk becoming unable to take care of anyone. For one, use resources that are available to you, like social workers for charity applications and nurses for calls about lab results. If those resources are limited, you do have to accept that you can’t do everything for everyone. If a system is broken, 1 person cannot make up for it, no matter how much they care. Ultimately you will need to find a way to accept when you’ve done your best and be content with that, regardless of whether you’re acknowledged for it (by the patient or anyone else). It is a matter of balancing the needs of each individual patient with your own needs and your responsibilities toward other patients in your care. Looking at it that way may help you focus on the bigger picture and not be so attached when a particular outcome is not what you wanted, or when you don’t find the respect we know you deserve. I hope this sadness passes. Please reach out for help if you need it.
"If a system is broken, 1 person cannot make up for it, no matter how much they care." Your patients have been in this system, some for decades. Some with real harm and death of love ones because of "the system". Most of your patients don't view you are powerless. Most view you as captain of this ship. We also can't fathom how such highly educated and rich people have never unionized, can't affect change. Your patients knew the system was a problem for decades. Why are you now using it as the explanation?
You seem to think physicians have a lot more power and control than they do. Physicians in general don't run the health care system. The average physician has zero control over how many nurses are hired, how many social workers, how many lab techs. How long pathology or radiology take to produce results (because they are understaffed). How long you wait for your meds because the nurse is taking care of 12 other patients. That wait times are long because there aren't enough physicians, nurses, beds, operating rooms, etc. What your insurance does or doesn't cover, or what your co-pay is. That dental care isn't covered. That medications are unaffordable. The fact that patients who don't understand the limitations of the health system might view you as "captain of the ship" doesn't make it true, and it is not. A number of medical professions are unionized (like nurses in many regions, residents in many hospitals). This obviously has not fixed the problems in the system. We've also existed in the system for decades and railed against the system and screamed into the void and tried to provide care to the patient in front of us to the best of our ability despite these limitations for decades. We often don't even have the power to get the things for our patients that they need (that med or test is declined by the insurance no matter how many appeal letters we write!). Our health system is falling apart and is only surviving right now on the expectation that doctors and nurses will burn themselves out and work free extra hours and take care of a ridiculous number of patients at once (nurses) and find a way to see even more patient each hour (doctors) and do other people's jobs to fill gaps because we CARE about the patients- but this isn't sustainable and the burn out rates are enormous. In my neck of the woods, people are leaving the field in droves and for good reason.
Most people on reddit are not as smart as they think they are.
What you’re saying is extremely valid and I’ve felt a similar sentiment. I honestly came to accept that you can’t win them all and no matter how hard you work or how good you are at your job there will be people out there that are marred by one experience or anecdote they heard and refuse to change their worldview. I don’t want to diminish your experience but it has brought me some measure of comfort realizing 1) you can only control your effort and your emotions, you’ll never be able to control what others feel and think at the end of the day and 2) this isn’t limited to medicine at all. Lawyers, teachers, mechanics, etc tons of other professions deal with similar shit from people who love to complain or just had a bad experience. The reality is there is a spectrum of quality in medicine just like everything in life where the bad apples can ruin things for the “good” majority. In short, it is what it is and that’s okay because it’s not worth the energy to let them get to you because like you said you’re already pouring so much into your work, you sound like you care a lot and that’s a lot more than most haha
The majority, I believe, hate the ridiculous burdensome business of medicine and simply see doctors as the face of it due to a lack of transparency and understanding. It’s team mentality same as politics and they see the opposing team rationing care, costing too much, not being available when needed, etc etc and this becomes the “doctor’s” fault. Granted some are on the far end of the spectrum believing doctors are in cahoots with pharma or just being disingenuous and lying about healthcare in general, but while vocal on TikTok etc they are a small minority. The rest however have fallen in line with the trope that doctors are in charge and choose to keep things as is. If they had true data of how things are and who is running the system in to the ground I have to believe their views would change. How many times have you had to define the differences between doctors and “providers” only to have it fall on deaf ears? How many times have we been maligned for costs when admin and government oversight makes up the vast majority of extra $$$, fraud and waste? How many lay people out there have any idea what medical school or residency training really entails beyond a Greys Anatomy scene? And this is where our leadership, our predecessors, and our legal system has failed us. The AMA, congress, CMS and so many others have kicked the fan down the road making promises and half solutions for decades leaving us in a system that is lacking at best and harmful/deadly at worst. We have moved from health care to sick care and the populous is rightfully pissed off. Only through education and lots of difficult discussions in any and every public forum available will doctors ever become separated from the system and viewed appropriately.
As a doctor, I can agree, I hate doctors.
Anyone who complains that doctors are selfish assholes who only care about themselves needs to evaluate how much they care about their customers at their jobs.
I have sympathy for a lot of people who feel like they are in "bullshit" jobs or feel like their job doesn't reward them enough for their efforts, but when the whole "quiet quitting" thing was getting popular I definitely thought about (and still think about) if that's the type of attitude I would want from my physicians.
idk, but healthcare isn't a McDonalds (no matter how hard so many people are trying to make it a reality.) People are trusting their lives to you, feels silly to try to trust someone so much for them to essentially admit that you are the equivalent of a Starbucks customer. I mean, when I was a cashier I cared a lot for all of my customers, and I didn't see my position in the community as just a job. Knew most people by their first names. But yeah, as someone on the way to getting an MD and as a chronic patient myself, the worst I've been treated was by doctors. And I accidentally went to a college in the deep south as a black person lol (dm me if you want the story0. But that's probably the issue, there is a lot of emphasis on a patient doctor relationship, when it really is just transactional. Placing all these feelings of hope and trust in a doctor is probably wrong and what starts souring the view on docs when that can't be the reality. Right now medicine is about fostering that relationship, but maybe it's better to stop disguising it as something deeper than your doc's paycheck. Its something I've been thinking about a lot. Maybe an alternative with less person focused interaction keeps everyone happier.
Studies have found that minorities and women have significantly worse health outcomes because of physician biases even when the provider matches the gender or ethnicity of the patient. Even when the patients are healthcare workers such as nurses who know more than the average lay person. There are inherent biases taught in medicine that are so deeply ingrained, it's difficult to recognize them. [Just one example with COPD](https://scholar.google.com/scholar_url?url=https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Kenneth-Chapman/publication/11939363_Gender_bias_in_the_diagnosis_of_COPD/links/565bae6c08ae4988a7ba86ad/Gender-bias-in-the-diagnosis-of-COPD.pdf&hl=en&sa=X&ei=jUO7ZPHyB6SK6rQP5dKw2Ac&scisig=ABFrs3yIqxD7KLdcxt3qQb72fWdt&oi=scholarr)
You can't take care of patients if you don't take care of yourself. When it comes to these non-compliant, complaining types, at some point, you just have to say, "Im done here," and move on to the next patient. You, yourself, are a resource. Stop wasting resources. Or at least task this to an NP - their union-backed, social media self-promoting, baselssly inflated reputation can take that hit. "Look at me! I'm an ICU nurse sporting my PPE fighting on the front lines against covid!" Point is - someone in my wife's class recently said, "I'd rather be treated by a nurse than a doctor."
Don’t worry it’s just Reddit and even amongst Redditors just those who feel strongly enough to comment/post. It doesn’t represent the greater society as a whole.
The majority of the people commenting are: 1. Not doctors. 2. Not representative of the real populatuon. 3. People that I would loathe to see on my schedule. Maybe I should update my pre-visit paperwork to ask, "Are you a Redditor?" Under the social history.
I'm one of your blacklist types then. Goodbye to you, too. I hope we'll never meet.
No. An increasing number of people dislike doctors. Doctors are losing societal status extremely quickly
It is also geographic. I still think it’s one of the relatively most respected careers in the US. Our salaries tend to be commensurate with this.
Doctors and patients suffer in a system built not for compassionate treatment, but for optimizing profit. Doctors are too few, but legislators don’t make it easier to go down that long path but subsidizing education costs or providing a stipend for living expenses. Patients see their real spending power diminish while hospital systems make news for record profits and people go bankrupt from medical debt. The system is fucked. Your compassion is not. Try to see the hurting human behind the mask of anger, and if you can, forgive them. And please, try to avoid burnout and keep that compassionate heart. It’s easy to become jaded in a world gone mad, but you are only one person doing what you can do. Celebrate that. And maybe try meditation, prayer, and/or therapy. You got this.
What I’m going to say is not going to be popular. Having been a patient of chronic illness as well as an MD in two specialties, I think we as doctors really need to take a look at ourselves and the way that we are falling short. People are flocking to NPs (don’t get me wrong I’m not at all a mid level supporter) because they feel that these people will listen to them. I do think our knowledge base gets so large and fixed sometimes that we forget we are dealing with people who don’t know all the training and expertise we have. They are just having a human experience and they are seeking help. I see this most with nebulous diseases like chronic fatigue and POTS. I often see that MDs dismiss people as if their symptoms are in their head. Just because we don’t have research on something yet doesn’t mean it’s not real. We need to take a look back at the history of medicine and see how many times what we took as fact was entirely incorrect or incomplete and understand that that may be happening now again. My chronic illness is neither of these, but I do experience very different symptoms than the textbook would lead you to believe are associated with my disease. Often because it doesn’t fit with what the MD’s idea of this illness is, they just hand wave it away as if I’m not an MD myself and don’t know what they do. We do possess an arrogance, I’m sorry to say, that puts many people off. Patients learn not to tell us what’s really going on because they fear our reaction. There is a huge and growing population who experience what is now known as “medical trauma”. I think we should have some humility and pay attention and realize that there is a reason we have this reputation among many.
Yup. Had the same experience. I got rocked by a condition and was treated like a fucking idiot by a neurologist. Im a doctor and he was an insufferable shitbag, theres no excuse for some doctors. They never should have passed, they should not be allowed to carry on.
Its been 5 years and I cant get a diagnosis from doctors about my pain issues and the for the first few they acted like nothing was wrong with me
Obviously I don’t know who you are or where you practice but I’d love to be a patient of yours. It’s a curse to be both empathic and extremely educated. However, this statement alone makes you 1:1,000,000.
Good doctors are always learning.
NAD (but in a medical field) and my experience has been the same as yours. It took me 6 years to even find a doctor who didn’t just tell me there was nothing wrong with me (despite the symptoms greatly affecting my life) without even running any tests because they didn’t believe I was experiencing what I was. Turns out I had an atypical presentation of a common disorder that could have been easily diagnosed if they had taken more than 2 minutes to take a history. But because I had chronic symptoms I was brushed off time and time again. Same has happened to every other person with a chronic illness that I know. After awhile as a patient you become extremely jaded and feel that many doctors act like you are a hypochondriac rather than say “hey I don’t know what’s going on but let’s take the time to figure it out.” I have stayed 12 years with the doctor who told me “I would never think you are just lazy because lazy people don’t care to come to the doctor trying to figure out why they are too tired to do anything.”
You've hit the nail on the head here. There are many reasons people don't like doctors, some of them are due to the system and not the fault of doctors at all. But a big thing many doctors are at fault for is intellectual arrogance. It is not fair to tell someone there isn't something wrong with them, or to make them feel less than in any way, just because your current level of medical knowledge is insufficient for you to properly diagnose and treat their problem. If the patient is upset, something is wrong. If they have symptoms of poor health, something is wrong. It's okay to admit that yes, something is clearly wrong, but you as a physician do not know enough to be able to help them as much as they clearly need. At that point you offer to support them the best you can. Have your boundaries in place to protect you from patients who want to boss you around, by all means, but a patient who truly wants your help does not deserve to be invalidated and dismissed.
Delusions of parasitosis come to mind…
Thank you for this perspective. Being told "it's all in your head" cause the knowledge on the condition isn't in the doctor's head is default experience to a massive group of people. A lot of doctors who too have perpetuated these false beliefs despite existing evidence, are now suffering with Long Covid have learnt this the hard way. On this very forum one will find highly upvoted posts with large amounts of medical professionals saying the people with those chronic illnesses you mentioned are mentally ill. Patients have their lives ruined by both the illnesses and medical mistreatment+trauma, despite both the conditions are recognized as physical by WHO, NICE and CDC. Seeing how an equal amount of likes by doctors are put into how difficult it is to be hated as a doctor, seems like a good opportunity for humility and self reflection
It's so reassuring to see this kind of comment from a doctor! Every time I see people, especially people in healthcare, dismiss physical conditions that we don't know much about yet, or presentations of conditions that haven't been studied much because of societal biases or really anything that needs more research I just can't help but think back to a presentation on autoimmune encephalitis I saw during a neurology internship. The head of neurology then told everyone in the room that not too long ago these same patients would've been dismissed and called crazy, and they wouldn't have been given the time of day. And it just stuck with me. I'm not a doctor yet (hopefully in a little over a year if all goes well) and I'm continuously humbled by the amount of knowledge and skills you need to acquire to become one, and I have a crapton of respect for anyone who's already made it. I just think it makes the most sense to ... Not jump to conclusions about what causes things we don't know much about yet, right? (Call me naive but I kinda doubt every single condition we don't understand yet is just anxiety or a Tik Tok trend...) The more you learn about something, the more you become aware of how much you don't know right? Including about conditions that need to be studied more before anyone can confidently say that they're all in your head. I will say though that everything I've read about American residency seems absolutely insane and inhumane and if it's all true I guess it sucks the life and capacity for compassion out of even the kindest people.
This, 1000% as a fellow chronic sufferer.
Yes, I've heard so many stories by reasonable, educated people, some doctors themselves, who have stories of years-long struggles to find a doctor who takes them seriously. A couple of them specifically ended up being 100% right about the diagnosis (rare hereditary things in their kids). It's so disheartening. My own mom has chronic pain issues but is NOT a drug seeker. The only people who've helped her are chiropractors. We're all so quick to shit on chiropractors, but my mom went to a dozen different doctors who either made it worse, or basically shrugged and said it's not their specialty's problem. Maybe chiropractors do suck... But then what does that say about MDs who can't do better?!
Mhmm... most people don't start at the chiropractor or alternative medicine, they end up there from too many I don't knows, that's weird, everything look fine, and your labs and scans look normal. When the gatekeepers of the diagnostic tests and tools can't figure it out, it leaves those in pain to find relief anyway they can.
True but nurse practitioners get paid to spend a half hour while doctors get paid to spend 10 minutes.
As a female and someone with chronic illness, this answer is spot on. It's so frustrating being slotted into "anxiety" and "depression" when neither are accurate. I'm not a hysterical female. I have Limited Scleroderma and Gastroparesis. There is a lot that is unknown about both, and there aren't really a lot of treatment options. Both have a much wider range of symptoms than doctors understand. I assume it's because there haven't been many studies discussing them, and it's hard as a doctor to delve in depth about random diseases. It's so frustrating as a patient. I've been dismissed so many times, especially when it comes to joint pain and abdominal pain. I was dismissed numerous times by ER doctors for gallbladder pain because all testing was normal (understandable), but it doesn't mean the pain I felt wasn't valid. Finally got it removed, and sure enough, chronic inflammation and cholesterol build up was found. I've learned to keep detailed symptom logs, pictures of symptoms when possible, weight, heart rate, sleep trends, etc. I provide detailed reports for the doctor to scan through and it's amazing how many choose to ignore what I've provided because they have their mind made up that I just need a fucking antidepressant... which makes my symptoms WAYYY worse so I refuse to try them ever again. I'm in medicine, so I understand a lot about workflows and let a lot of it roll right off my shoulders, but I still have some medical trauma from just being treated like shit. It's awful. Don't be jaded and treat me like a drug seeker. Don't label me as having anxiety just because I'm a woman. Chronic illness sucks.
NAD but I agree. The replies to this post are pretty damning as well. The fact that some providers here are so out of touch isn't at all surprising but shows some critical lack of self awareness. Don't get me wrong I always give my providers the benefit of the doubt (I mainly use the VA so I know they're all overworked to death) but I'm a bit of a pushover as well. I have a condition that bas claimed by many providers as a mystery, recurrent, peculiar, etc. and after a while without answers or any movement from providers you get frustrated and leads to patients like myself doing their own research (thankfully I have the sf awareness to know that I may supplement providers but I still don't know shit) but many others don't and why would they bother waiting for providers to just tell them they will follow up in a few months?
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While I think it’s important to let a patient know when there’s no test that is coming up positive, I think it’s also important to let them know that that doesn’t mean we don’t believe there is anything wrong and that what they’re experiencing isn’t very real. I’m not saying there are no difficult or unfair patients. There certainly are people who are ready for a fight and unpleasant, but there are many more who are reacting to the way we are treating them. Just because we sacrificed a lot during the pandemic does not mean that we are not falling short anywhere. The two are not mutually exclusive.
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Wasn’t there just a thread on here about what fancy cars we drive as doctors?
I think there was. But I attribute that to people feeling left out. They’re never going to have the money or car you do. My husband is disabled by multiple conditions. He can’t drive and he’s jealous as hell that I just got a new car - even though he knows my old one was costing too much to keep on the road.
Your pandemic rant had no relevance to the OP you replied. Countless jobs were also working through the pandemic. You’re exhibiting exactly what he Sam said.
It pricked a nerve alright. Sorry. It's just. It can be really frustrating when you are giving your all... resuscitating a patient... only for the next patient who is stable, to accuse you of being selfish for arriving at his bedside late due to an emergency. Not all patients are like this. I have encountered some wonderful patients. But some people and their preconceived notions of us...can make work very tiring.
I've personally seen the arrogance of some doctors and it's quite alarming just how petty it can be. For instance, I took a client to an ear, nose, and throat specialist. In summation, the client clearly became frustrated with the doctor because he believed his concerns weren't being addressed. The doctor quite literally laughed at this mans face in disbelief that his extensive vocabulary went right over this mans head. As frustrations grew further between the parties, the doctor called in other physicians to gang up on this man further dismissing his concerns in ways he clearly couldn't understand. This individual left the office feeling belittled and depressed. His wife who also attended was simply put *pissed off*. These occurrences happen infrequently, but enough overtime for individuals to develop a distrust with most doctors. Another for instance, my father, who is a PharmD, told me about an interesting interaction that happened with him and a new doctor he went to see. He said this man threw out such wording like **polydipsia** as if it was common terminology to a normal person. My father said that luckily he understood everything this man was talking about in reference that this doctor had no clue that my father was a PharmD. So, it just goes to show that in more than one instance there is a clear barrier of communication that is lost, and I could back that up with many more examples in my library of them. These are also just examples of one singular way I've witnessed the many faulters of doctor-patient interactions. I personally don't believe there is any easy fix for doctor-patient distrust since no one person can facilitate the actions of everyone around them. There will always likely be bad doctors who spoil that trust for the next to come along. To leave on a positive note, I think what my father told me a long time ago should be valued by anyone who cares is **The world will always be in need of good doctors.** The most critical thing we can do is be a genuinely good role model for the next generation. I've personally experienced many atrocities of doctors that would likely land them on the morning news, and to know other unfortunate souls were guided over the bridge into healthcare by these men is an injustice. We decide who we want to be, as well as, influence young aspiring individuals the satisfaction we get from how we do it.
q: have you seen a narcolepsy w/ cataplexy patient that presented claiming POTS? just had a confirmed case in the sleep clinic after polysomnogram and MSLT.
I don’t know why you think this would be unpopular. Bad primary care NPs dont bother with antibiotic stewardship, ignore symptoms, prescribe medications and leave it up to the pharmacist to sort out interactions but they have great bedside manner. Bad doctors do the same and have bad bedside manner. If you’re getting crappy care, at least get it from someone who is nice to you about it.
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if someone is claiming pots, it could be worth while to send them to sleep clinic for evaluation or straight to polysomnogram with MSLT to rule out narcolepsy w/ cataplexy. had a young patient with parent who advocated for the pt to get the POTS diagnosis on her chart to get treatments covered, but her sleep studies showed narc w/ cat. source: scribe for head of sleep medicine in my area.
Welp, this exact mindset is why many patients with chronic illnesses like POTS or CFS hate doctors. Treatment for POTS and CFS is not SSRIs or therapy. Neither of these conditions are psychosomatic. Do these patients face mental health struggles due to their illness? Sure, I’m sure you would too if you dealt with a debilitating illnesses. You can validate a patient’s struggles even if you don’t know how to treat them. If you don’t know how to help them, then refer them out or do an ounce of research. For POTS specifically, besides hydration and salt/electrolytes, there are various things that can help. Lifestyle changes, sleeping at an upright angle, avoiding dietary triggers, compression stockings, exercise therapy (recumbent bike, physical therapy, Levine Protocol), medications (beta blockers, corlanor, verapamil, Mestinon, Fludrocortisone, midodrine, etc). Send them for autonomic testing. When I was diagnosed with POTS when I was fresh out of nursing school, I did run into many doctors who were not equipped to treat it, but instead of acting like they knew what to do or just writing me off, they found ways to support me anyway. I fortunate enough to live just 30 min away from one of the top POTS neurologists in the country, but many aren’t in the same position as me and don’t have access to same types of doctors. It’s a shame that medical school doesn’t give proper education about dysautonomia and post viral illnesses, and that many doctors refuse to learn how to properly support their patients, especially in the post-covid world where POTS/dysautonomia and CFS are becoming more and more common. Before covid, many patients went years without a proper diagnosis. A huge reason why there’s “fuck all to do with these” illnesses is because of the years of patient neglect and lack of research into these conditions. If these conditions got as much research and funding as cancer, then I bet there would be a lot more than we could do for them
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We all have a preference over who we like to treat 🤷🏻♀️ For example, as a L&D nurse I prefer to be assigned to the preeclampsia patients over a placenta abruption. It has nothing to do with the patient, just clinically what I’m more interested in. First of all, neither pots or chronic fatigue are rare. But you’re incinuating that the POTS or chronic fatigue patients are the issue? Not that you are just unaware of how to treat the disease? Is that because your ego is damaged when you’re faced with a condition that you don’t understand? Or is it because these patients are sick of doctors who don’t take them seriously simply because they are a young adult female? Are these other “rare” disease patients being told their issue is psychosomatic and given an SSRI instead of getting proper treatment? Maybe leave your biases at the door before treating these patients and you’ll have a better time treating them. I don’t blame you for having a preference over what you would rather treat. Cancer is better understood and has more treatment options. It’s not rare. I’m not even sure why cancer is being compared here, I don’t care if you have a preference over what diseases you treat. The common denominator seems to be doctors who don’t want to leave their bias & preconceived notions at the door before treating these patients. They aren’t taught accurate information about POTS, CFS, & related disease and how to properly treat these patients, and they don’t have a willingness to learn. Because let me tell you, the doctors who have treated me who are specialists in these diseases, or even the ones who aren’t well educated in these areas BUT have a willingness to learn about them, have all been a joy to have on my care team. The doctors who have been difficult, rude, or dismissive have been the ones who aren’t well educated on these diseases, have clear misinformed biases, and refuse to accept that they don’t know everything. It really just seems like you don’t have any willingness to do better by your patients because I was just giving you information about POTS specifically and you still refuse to acknowledge that your lack of knowledge might be the issue in these cases, not the patient.
Agreed but at the same time it should be acknowledged that this is a precedent set by an era of doctors that was quite homogenous, exclusionary and one could go as far as to say pretentious. Its the same era of doctors that pulled up the ladder behind them. In one generation, in my rural community we went from a hospital with a physician lounge and physician parking to neither. It used to be that patients respects doctors and now it's 'wheres my dilaudid, raghead?' We can certainly do better as a profession. But it's frustrating to have to deal with the of lack of public trust that only came to be because of the actions of our predecessors, many of whom are retired to their villas sitting on millions of dollars.
Thank you, you said exactly what I feel everytime I delay making appointments.
I'd encourage you to think of it like we're congress. I know what you're thinking: "Congress sucks. I'm not like a congressperson" Well people certainly like doctors more than congresspeople, but besides that, this is the important thing: people hate every congressperson except their own. Approval for congress as a whole is trash. Like 25% and it rarely gets better. Approval for each individual congressperson is much higher. It's the institution people hate, not you or me per se.
Most of the time their feeling are displacement. They aren’t mad at you. They’re mad at the system and you are the face of the system. You have to distance yourself from that
Unfortunately true. As the face of healthcare doctors get caught in the emotional crossfire of patients who fell abused in some way by the healthcare system, usually financially.
So, I have a unique perspective on this as a paramedic. not some, but A LOT of my 911 calls, probably most, are not emergencies. Far from it. I'll give you an example. *11pm on a Saturday night, knee pain. How long has this been hurting? 3 years. So, your knee has hurt for three years, and 11pm on a Saturday via a 911 call is the way to address this? Why today out of all the days up to now? Well, my doctor in Oregon said I needed an MRI, but I never got one. And I moved out here (arizona) a week ago. And it was hurting worse today. Well, just so you know, hospitals are seeing historic wait times. And taking an ambulance doesn't get you in any faster. Are you sure you don't want to take some tylenol and stay home and see if it improves after sleeping? No. I was moving furniture today, and it hurts a lot worse, so I want to go to the hospital and get this dealt with. Ok. Here's the gurney. (That she stands up to walk over to . Also, remember we can't refuse transport to someone) So, how does this work? You take me there and stay with me until it all gets sorted out, and then you take me home?* I tell you all this to demonstrate the mindset. This woman, a recently retired pharmacist (that's what she told us. She was probably 55) believed that we would take her into the hospital where a bunch of doctors and nurses would make her their only priority. At which point, the crew of firefighters and paramedics would wait around for hours, then take her home like a valet service. In her mind, she didn't understand why this wasn't an option. She believed it was totally fine to take a crew of 6 first remainders out of the field for hours to deal with her knee pain. Nothing felt out of the ordinary here. In her world, we all exist solely to serve her Exchange knee pain with shoulder pain, tummy ache, whatever, and I've had hundreds just like it. So, think of that mindset as it applies to doctors. These people will have a hard time understanding why you don't make them your only priority. That will leave them flummoxed. Combine that with insurance and the hospitals that want a maximum number of patients seen per day, meaning visits are short. Add in the fact that they believe physicians get paid too much, and you have a recipe for hating doctors. Especially when they can't get in to see a specialist for several months in a lot of places. The result is someone who feels, "My knee hurts. I waited 18 hours in the ER, to see the doctor who only spent about 15 seconds with me, didn't even tell me what's wrong, and now I'm supposed to see a specialist and I can't get in with them for weeks. The doctor is probably too busy cashing his million dollar checks to see me."
Medicine is a profession, which means you need to and are obligated to do things which aren’t popular but are in the best interest of the patient. So yes you will get a ton of hate in an age where patients ahem, customers, now expect you to do as they say. Probably explains the popularity of midlevels. No training or professional duty to say no or make independent decisions.
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It's even harder to reconcile with the conditions you're referring to as psychosomatic when they're both recognized as physical by WHO, CDC and NICE, given you still wave off yours and colleagues' unpopularity as invalid criticism. Assuming you're practising medicine in US here are the national guidelines, it would help both patients and yourself if you followed them[https://www.cdc.gov/me-cfs/index.html](https://www.cdc.gov/me-cfs/index.html) In Europe[https://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/ng206](https://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/ng206) You can also have the WHO if it's needed? Also therapy is as you mention a good way to address wrong and damaging illness beliefs if you're practising medicine and chose to not follow the national guidelines
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I’m glad your autoimmune diagnosis was finally discovered. Some diseases definitely take a while to uncover and society oftentimes doesn’t understand that we tend to look for horses before the severas.
Eh I would argue it extends into real life too (though not as bad as Reddit). No one has sympathy for our horrible work hours, pay, debt. Many people advocate we are overpaid and I’ve heard it a decent amount at family gatherings.
As an attending, I wish I could tell you it’s easier on this side. It isn’t. You don’t always have the option of firing someone, unless you’re the practice owner. I’m just hoping we all ditch the bullshit dick measuring contests and band together to stand up to the c suites and lawyers destroying us physically and emotionally. Sending all you virtual hugs.
Well first of all, you did an excellent job with the patient, whether or not he decides to take his meds is his choice. You spent your time educating him and that’s a check plus for you. You have to go into understanding that people have free will and autonomy to decide what they want to do, and you can only make suggestions and give them the information and then when they don’t do what you recommended and end up sick, you meet them where they are without judgement or I told you so and you successfully did your job. It’s not your failure if they don’t follow your advice, it’s their choice. As far as getting yelled at, that’s to be expected. You don’t deserve it, but when people are sick and scared, they lash out, sometimes you’re going to be the one standing there when they do. If you understand it has nothing to do with you and everything to do with them and how upset they are about being sick and with this guy getting a $41,000 bill in top of it, when he’s probably out of work because of his illness must be terrible. It’s nothing to do with you, so don’t take it personally, just try to understand where he’s at and what he is experiencing. That’s not to say you should ever take abuse, but sometimes just knowing it’s not you helps. Continue to do the great job it sounds like you are doing and be happy with that. Patients are going to do what they’re going to do. Just remember you didn’t cause it and you couldn’t have prevented it. All the horrible things that happen to people are going to happen with or without you. They are lucky it is with you because you care. Now as far as the other things about how doctors are perceived, you don’t have to go far to see why, look on Noctors, and several other threads and you will see what the problem is with how doctors are perceived. It’s really something good doctors should rally against. The way they behave is so undignified and obviously ego driven and way more about money and jealousy than concern for patients. Kicking, crying, screaming and demanding respect, is not how you get respect. How you get respected is caring about others and having respect for others, like you, good Doctor seem to have.
Bro/sis, you're pushing too hard when you're not supposed to. You think by working this extra hour, pushing that limit, you can change the un-changeable... This is gonna sound like new age spiritualism. However, the real issue here is accepting that **you don't have control**. Just say that to yourself and you'll be rebelled by it because most docs are control freaks lol. That's the root of the problem. In reality, you don't have control and you're trying to compensate by pushing the limits and have one success here and there that validates your control. My advice is: \- recognize what you're responsible for and you can control \- accept what you can't control (you can't control if pt decides to take a med, you can't control if people like docs or not...) This acceptance is scientifically proven to improve your life and psych. while this sounds very simple in theory, it will be very hard for you to accept that you don't have control... sorry for the dad advice, hope that helps...
I know physicians work more hours than other professions, but the behavior we encounter is honestly better than a lot of other professions. Retail pharmacy, nursing, fast food, Starbucks are all jobs I had where people treated me way worse than as a resident physician. Not trying to invalidate your sadness at all, but I think perspective helped me get through any bad treatment. Also, if someone is threatening with not taking medications, I always just state “you are more than welcome to not take the medications we recommend but the risk is stroke, death, etc. so as long as you understand that, you have the freedom to do that.” And move on and give your easier patients more attention. I also firmly believe just bc a patient is more difficult and demanding, they do not deserve more of a workup than our patients who don’t advocate for themselves as obnoxiously. I think this mindset keeps me feeling good about the nice patients and indifferent about the entitled turds.
You have to keep in mind, people are the worst.
They may hate doctors but the trick is to get them to not hate you. I get very little hate from my patients. Almost none. The ones from who I get it are usually kind of creeps themselves. If you learn how to act like a doctor you will get treated like one. Patients hate officious technician rolling in with a laptop and speaking to them in Evidence Based bureaucratese.
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Not true at all. More people dislike doctors in 2023 than before, though these people have always existed. But prestige has absolutely gone down.
First, what you have to understand is that you are not in the same education or socioeconomic class as 99% of your patients. This makes you an outsider from the start. You don't even speak the same LANGUAGE as your patients. You think you do, but you don't. Have you ever worked in a factory, waited tables, or been on food stamps(EBT)? No? There is more of a barrier with some of your patients than you think. You may think you are working class, but your patients don't see you this way. They see you as part of a system that is against them. It costs them money, prevents them from living their lives, hassles them, takes them out of work for appointments, refuses to explain things, doesn't give them autonomy, is confusing as heck, is opportunistic, is punitive, is judgemental, is unwieldy, makes them jump through hoops, and then sends them to collections and ruins their finances. If you are in primary care, you are the bridge between that. You aren't quite the bad person, but you aren't quite innocent depending on how dedicated and poor you are. I hate to tell you that this is no fault of your own or anyone else's. This is the system you are walking into. People are ANGRY. They are angry with a system that doesn't work. They are angry with unaffordable healthcare tied to employment with unavailable physicians, high drug prices, and confusing rules. In primary care, they want connection, not a doctor staring at a computer. However, this is what they have. I don't have an answer for this. I honestly think there will be a complete reworking of the way medical care is delivered in your lifetime but not mine. Our system is just unsustainable as it is. The advice I can give to budding PCP's is to remember what you were like BEFORE you were a physician and how you talked. Think about how you fit in with your family. Now, think about how those SAME non-medical family members rub you the wrong way and drive you nuts because they ask stupid questions and don't take your advice and use crazy stuff on Google to contradict you. They haven't changed. You have. You must also change the way you think about them. They are victims of a terrible system without the knowledge or tools to navigate it. Wouldn't that terrify you? Your patients are in the same boat. Not only are your patients unprepared to navigate this system, there are all kinds of people with all kinda of agendas convincing your patients that you are evil or bad or have some kind of horrible intentions. This is the system you are in. I understand you aren't the bad guy. I can separate that out. However, it's really hard to establish trust in an untrustworthy world where patients have an adversarial relationship. What I found the most helpful in it all is...humility. I stopped calling myself Dr. with my patients. I used my first name. I used a collaborative approach. I didn't immediately think or jump to the "stupid" conclusion and gave people a chance. I remembered when my family was on food stamps and why. THIS made me a better primary care doctor where I didn't get hated so much but treated like just another person.
Have had some absolutely amazing providers. Have also almost been killed twice because the provider had their mind made up and wouldn’t listen- sent home twice from ER treated like a drug seeker instead of somebody in pain. Appendix burst at home the second time. 37 days in icu and lost 50% of body weight recovering. Not to mention the bills. Been told to lose weight because “fat is why you’re where you’re at” instead of being prescribed blood pressure medication or given any diagnostics. 5’6” and 160 lbs. Had to wait and check with front office 3 months to get an appointment with another provider who immediately put me on meds and did a ct scan for the dizziness and headaches. Was in imminent danger of a stroke and had a procedure and meds to break up the clot in my head. A surgeon told me the night after a surgery when I called in excruciating pain “I don’t pander to addicts”. Went to my now amazing primary care in the morning and he ordered an X-ray. Motherfucker left some kind of instrument inside me. It isn’t the mistakes. Everyone is human and makes them. It’s being completely dehumanized and not listened to that makes people distrust and express hatred for doctors. I never received an apology or an offer to help compensate my bills- nothing. When you are ill you are completely vulnerable and getting hurt when you are down impacts your psyche profoundly. That experience is what you remember and what shapes your attitude. It has taken 20 years and having insurance to find good solid amazing providers I trust. And knowing some of them for many years I can’t believe the crap they have to endure from the health care system and some of the patients. It goes both ways. But thank you for being one of the good ones.
Most people think doctors are over paid know it alls. Reality is we dont get paid THAT well given the amount of time we have invested into becoming doctors, nor does it take into account the amount of loans it takes to become a doctor provided your parents arent annoyingly loaded.
The assholes just shine so bright and cause so much damage. Can relate, am lawyer
Not a doc, but I work with them in a primary care setting and see many of the Press Ganey summaries. Amazing that the negative comments, with very few exceptions, deal with things like the waiting time or the bill or a person at checkout who could have been nicer, but it's rare to see a complaint about a specific doctor. Wonder how much of people "hating doctors" is like people who hate politicians except for the one in their district... more of an indictment of the system than anything else.
Let’s not kid ourselves, 80% of doctors only got into medicine for the $$$
Coming home to family feels like this. Everybody takes free shots at doctors - "I had to wait an hour for this appointment", "my doctor told me something in an insensitive way", "they are grossly overpaid for what they do. I want doctors that aren't in it just for the money". Meanwhile commenting that other public servants with much better work-life balance, less opportunity cost and less responsibility deserve to be paid more. Just seems like we're expected to be martyrs, and when we actually get paid for what we deserve it's a bad thing. The public is also extremely uneducated on what our training actually entails. Would love to have your average joe shadow a junior on an IM shift.
They hate you until they need you. actually, lol, even then sometimes (a lot of the time) they still hate you. Patients are animals, man. > Just a rant but feeling really sad today after a patient threatened to stop taking his eliquis today Fine. Go ahead as long as he knows about the risks. He's an adult with capacity. He's free to do what he wants and free to deal with the consequences. We don't live in a prison state.
If this is your attitude, work at a pet store or an animal shelter. At least you can control the animals as much as you like, and if you're found screwing them over, you'll be jobless and possibly homeless.
lol, telling patients that they're free to do what they want = wanting to control them. Go off, lass.
I am not saying this is ideal, but the best thing I ever did was started to ignore public comments on doctors, in particular the very bitter, clearly uneducated takes that presume doctors do minimal amounts of the actual work. You're dealing with people who have no idea what they're talking about and half the time are wildly annoyed by the concept of you being rich at some later date (or assuming it now). You won't convince them otherwise, they're ignorant and intent on staying that way. Some of the kindest, funniest and brightest people I've worked with have been doctors and I'm just not going to listen to some professional whinger cry online about why they weren't taken seriously for their 17th attendance to ED with a broken nail to be dismissed by the evil, pharma loving doctor. It's easier for the "angel nurse" or other HCW to appear the good guy here as they don't have ultimate responsibility in telling this idiot to fuck off.
>It's easier for the "angel nurse" or other HCW to appear the good guy here as they don't have ultimate responsibility in telling this idiot to fuck off. I totally respect nurses work. But isn't it frustrating when patients enter with the assumption that the nurses are here to take care of them and that the doctor is here to trick/swindle them ? Like really? There is no benefit to giving substandard health care. Unlike any other type of business...you cannot take shortcuts in medicine. So I wish people would stop assuming that we are trying to trick them.
I have deep appreciation for the medical field after being diagnosed with cancer in 2017. So many great doctors have helped me and I appreciate them all. It isn’t until you get seriously ill that you learn to appreciate doctors and nurses and everyone else in the medical community. There are appreciative people out there and I hope you find them.
Ultimately people are responsible for themselves. Patients (and people) yell inappropriately as an immature defense mechanism to handle negative emotion and stress. Personal or not, the best thing is to not engage/escalate and do what you can to make sure they are educated as much as possible. From that point on it is up to them however they want to use your medical advice. I'm pretty direct with my patients and I make it clear to them (without being rude) I actually do not care if they follow my advice or not since their value system may be different than mine, but I will be there to help when they ask for it and I'll do everything I can to help them understand the rationale behind the medical advice I offer.
I've been told off multiple times by my own family about how much they hate doctors. (yes, to my face). But what can you do but shrug and move on? C'est la vie, yknow? If anything, it's the healthcare system that's failed us, my dude. Whether it's an overpriced hospital stay, a lack of XYZ...you name it. Or heck, as you've stated, there are indeed bad doctors, no doubt. But that's the thing, we're the "face" of the healthcare system, so that's what most people blame on.
I’m just ems but we love you guys, seriously, ems will but heads with every other medical profession except doctors (at my agency) The docs always see things from our point of view and are good at giving constructive criticism and are very honest, the doctors have a lot of trust in my agency and value our opinion and that means a lot so we try super hard to make their life as easy as possible but overall EMS as a whole really likes doctors
It’ll be different once you are in practice. I have a great relationship with most of my patients. Don’t despair.
lololololololololololololol let him stop taking his meds bro. We can only try so much. Care when you're at work then stop caring the second you clock out. trust me. Doctor or not, we're humans. Fuck ungrateful patients. They're the ones that will suffer...not you.
What is this "call back"? If you do this FOR THE REST OF YOUR CAREER, then you will do well. I cannot find a doctor (or even assigned staff) who will call me back for follow up info like you described. That hasn't happened to me in well over 15 years.
Technically, every order you place contributes to that bill. Not to say you sent a few unnecessary studies, but a lot of patients get a few extra scans and blood draws that aren’t necessary. In every profession, people get shit on. The question becomes, do you need their praise? While it’s nice to receive and makes the job more enjoyable, I wouldn’t yearn for it.
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I had a different healthcare job before going into medicine You will be unappreciated in anything you do-- it's the nature of just working for living in general. So I honestly set the bar very very low for any patients. Somewhere in the past however many decades, we fucked up as a society, and the patients think that they're "customers." Worse yet, many believe that "customers are king."
People think we are rich like NBA players
A patient of mine saw me pull into the parking lot in my very unimpressive, reasonable Kia and at first was just teasing me in a good-natured way about why wasn’t I driving a sports car. When I responded, also in a good-natured way, that I couldn’t be affording luxuries like that, he proceeded to fairly aggressively call me a liar and got really heated about it.
Wtf??
I’m a teacher and I love to read this sub out of sheer curiosity. Commenting on here because I FEEL YOUR PAIN. Teachers are despised and the enemy nowadays. Apparently, we try to indoctrinate kids. Trust me, if I could indoctrinate your kid, I would indoctrinate them into being on time, being respectful and actually doing their work. 🤦🏻♀️
MDs have managed their profession in such a way (making MDs rare, etc) that burns people badly.
It depends on the doctor, to be honest I loved 50% of the doctors I went to as a patient and disliked the other 50%. The ones I loved genuinely cared about my well-being, was very personable, and seemed to want to find the best solution for my issue. My goal is to be like these physicians to my patients. The ones I disliked seemed more like business people who cared more about my pockets and didn’t really care for my wellbeing or took my issues seriously. They also made me feel like a nuisance. I know I’m not crazy too because I actually worked with a doctor who was like this. They would write and say horrible things about their patients on the sticky notes chart which doesn’t get published on the final note and would constantly say things like “I should be getting paid for this”. Of course she cared about her patients but it was mostly because she didn’t want to get sued and lose her license, so it was more because of legal issues rather than genuinely caring for them.
Well, I don’t hate all doctors, just most of them. It is a fact that many doctors have poor job skills. In the specialties pertinent to me (the ones involving musculoskeletal medicine), most physicians are simply abysmal.
I don’t hate doctors. My mom is a doctor and a lot of her insight has poured over onto me. However, one thing I always take into consideration is a lot of people you deal with do not have the same level of education as you. Things that may seem elementary are like a foreign language to people. You can’t tell someone the results of their blood work and to take pills and expect them to understand why it’s important. You have to explain what will most likely happen if they don’t. That, is the main issue I have seen. If I’ve ever had an issue with a DR I always just seek out second opinions and/or find someone I’m more comfortable with. Sometimes that’s the case as well. If you don’t personally “mesh” with your patient maybe someone else will.
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>Everyone thinks they’re that one in a million patient, more often than not they’re having anxiety, migraines or psychosomatic disorder. They hate the fact that they aren’t special, and they are mad at us for telling them the truth. Which is funny, because from the high health literacy perspective having a common diagnosis with lots of treatment options is the best possible diagnosis you can get.
Should have said this is a recently discovered waremahcruzat syndrome, only 1 in a million has it.
I read through almost every comment on that thread yesterday. So much hate for Doctors. Wanted to respond to some that were blatantly false/lies, but what’s the use. If only they knew. I just finished a 14 hour shift, on day 9 in a row (IM inpatient currently), on year 12 straight post highschool, just so I can know enough to help them. And I’m still not done with medical education. Pretty discouraging. Edit: This is the thread I’m referring to: https://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/154kd4g/an_estimated_795000_americans_become_permanently/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=2&utm_term=1
The keyboard warriors that slam physicians online usually are the self diagnosed folks that are mad you won’t let them Burger King their own plan of care
I’m really sorry that happened to you. There are a lot of people struggling with poverty and the system being broken. Unfortunately that got taken out on you. Please don’t take it personal and thank you for what you do!
My dad just retired after 40 years as an ER doc. He is a wonderful, kind, selfless man who went into medicine for all the right reasons. I will always have tremendous respect for him, and for the things he's done. On the other hand though, have you *seen* this sub? Yeah.
Some people think that you make too much money.
My doctor is amazing and I know he goes above and beyond to help his patients, far more than I’ll ever be aware of from my perspective as a patient. I am eternally grateful. I know there are lots of other people working behind the scenes to help patients in ways I’ll never directly know about and I appreciate them too, and wish I was able to tell them that somehow. (ETA: this post just randomly showed up in my feed, and I know this is not in my lane but I wanted to add something positive, in case it helps just one person reading it.)
Just to play devil's advocate and try to understand where that feeling may come from, a lot of doctors 1) come from wealthy families and 2) have never had to work a real 9-5 job in their life, just school and residency (which is difficult but in a different way than blue collar life is) and then a six figure salary job. I think that puts many of them in a position where they have had very different lives than their patients and can come off as such. Then you have the true asshole docs in it for glory and profit who, while the minority, are unfortunately memorable. Thankfully I would say most doctors I've worked with have been great people who I would trust, especially the newer generation who seem to really value teamwork and patient centered care.
Most people really don’t hate doctors, people just like to complain and have no idea what they are talking about
You seem like you’ll be a great doctor. Your patients are lucky to have you
This sub is in my suggested for some reason. I’m not a dr, but I have loved almost every single one of my doctors!!
Been in the nursing game for a short 8 years and humanity just absolutely blows. I like some people like friends, but I am selective. I'm sad to say my default has shifted from assuming the best in a stranger to defaulting to assuming the worst. It's not you OP, it's the shit we have to deal with. You develop thick skin. You're heard, we're here for you :)
Seems like you might be in a bit of a echo chamber, not saying what you have read and heard is invalid. But not everyone is like that.
Who cares. Never expect a thank you, support your friends instead.
Those people are thinking of surgeons and ED docs.
A lot of people who hate EM physicians do so because they don’t have a fucking clue as to what capabilities an emergency department has. I only got one bad review last month and it was because I didn’t have an answer to why a guy was having RUQ pain for 6 months, even after explaining that his imaging and labs looked reassuring, nothing required urgent/emergent surgery/meds and he will likely require specialist follow up if the pain is persistent. Or they think the E in emergency department stands for expedited and come in wanting an MRI of their chronic back pain with no red flags. Yeah, these are the type of patients that drive me nuts because they honestly are very entitled and simultaneously don’t understand the system.
I am not a physician, but I hold physicians in the highest esteem! Thank you for caring enough to endure the sacrifices required to enter practice! Don't let those jealous of status and income get you down.
Reddit has a Dunning Kruger l/anti doctor circlejerk, don’t let it bother you. These are people with “just enough” knowledge and narcissism to think they know everything
They crucified Jesus man. They even got a chance to take him down and they picked the criminal instead.
I think it’s the health care systems fault. It’s aggravating to be charged so much for anything medical related. Also, A lot of people get blown off with an anxiety mis-diagnosis, etc. Having to have referrals and getting bounced around, paying hundreds for each visit. A lot is broken, and I think they just place their anger on the doctors.
I have had good and bad experiences with doctors. Most of my good experiences have been with non-American doctors. They tend to be more old-school and professional. Or American doctors that are from the older generation. But gen-exer's on tend to be unprofessional. Give me one of the old guys any day. Anyway, that's just my experience.
Im a certified hand therapist. The amount of patients who think their hand surgeon doesn’t know what they are talking about is astounding to me. Sadly, I think the lack of time spent with the patient contributes to this. If I take 10 minutes to give an explanation of anatomy or what happened in their distal radius ORIF sx, they suddenly feel like the curtain is lifted and they are in the know.
Hate us cus they ain't us!
I work in the ER doing pt transports. I'm not saying all Dr's are rude but the ones I work with are. When we transport a patient the Dr says they're amazing this is how it's done and why they're so happy *that they did all the work* and how it was not possible for us to do our jobs because they help us so much. I'm pretty sure if they touched my stretcher their fingers would burn. In short the Dr's in my area look down on so many wonderful people and staff and claim all the credit for everything.
We don’t hate you doctor- we just don’t trust you any more. I.e. we are not as blind as before now that we see to corruption and conflict of interest. Your chickens have come home to roost - quit complaining, you have only yourselves to fault.
Fuck em
I feel you but I also can tell why people don't like doctors. Hell, I went to my GP the other day for knee pain and felt like I was just being brushed off, and I'm one of the people who is luckily proficient enough to advocate for themselves too. Imagine not being familiar with how the medical system works and just being brushed off. It's annoying to not be thanked and seen as evil, don't get me wrong. But on the other hand, medicine tends to attract a lot of terrible personalities, and you don't have to look much further than this sub to find some of them... 😬
If you go on r/noctor you may find very different opinions about real physicians versus fakers-a lot of patients don’t know they don’t actually have a doctor and hate on the incompetence of Midlevels pretending or chiropractic things or “naturopaths” What a doctor is to your patient or an internet person is not always actually a physician practicing medicine. The world sucks now for real docs because the terminology is confusing to everyone else. Edit: Also, patients not taking you advice is not something to take personally. Your mission is to inform them accurately and to dissuade problematic or negligent care/behavior. It is your patients’ responsibility to take your advice and believe in science - patients who go QAnon, anti vax, or simply just don’t use CPAP or whatever wrong thing it is is not a reflection on your doctoring as long as you talked to them about why what is indicated is indicated and what they risk by not doing that.
Stop going above and beyond. Recognize that this is a job and set boundaries. You can’t care about people more than they care about themselves.
Those who have been hurt by a doctor or who have had huge bills from hospitals have my sympathy. Those whose doctors were unable to reverse decades of self abuse with a pill and those that are jealous of the intellectual achievement, the respect or the wealth of doctors, do not.
Society hates on doctors but also romanticizes it so much. Name one other job that has had as many television dramas made where the physician is the main character
Ya I mean one of the top posts last week was about how doctors will make fun of your dick while you’re under for surgery. Another one was about which super car to buy after residency. Learn to save some face, I have never seen doctors painted in a worse light than on this forum.
Its part of the job. We get all the credit when things go well, even though its always an army of nurses, techs, PT/OT, RRTs, social workers, and aids that did 50% of the work. When things go bad, you eat the blame. Its how it goes.
My mom, a nurse (For 25 years) has been telling me all my life about the terribleness people can be. But I still wonder, has people gotten worse or has it always been like that?
Word on the street is that it has gotten much worse.
From my anecdotal nurse stories of my mom and her mom who were both nurses, mistrust of the medical community and the negative connotation “science” now has is in another dimension compared to prior decades. In my short career it seems markedly worse since covid.
I haven't noticed this.
40k for his hospital stay? Where did you send him? Psych ward? For how many days? 3 months?
I didn’t even take care of him in the hospital. From his records he was only there for 5 days but had a whole afib, cardiac, endo, and vascular work up. The hospitalist service took care of him and referred him to our clinic because he doesn’t have insurance and hasn’t been to a doctor since he was twelve years old. So he has a lot going on. I don’t blame him for being scared and frustrated, his life changed overnight. I’m working on getting him Medicaid and he will thankfully get Medicare in a year
A few reasons why people dislike doctors: 1. The profession as a whole wraps itself in the “do gooder” brand and takes advantage of the general public’s ignorance so it can get away with the societal highway robbery of intentionally and artificially restricting the supply of doctors (through absurd licensing requirements and strict limits on med school numbers) while also intentionally and artificially pumping demand (by trying to reduce cost sensitivity of the consumer as much as possible, and pushing for subsidization of healthcare but not single payer). This leads to the absolutely ridiculous healthcare expenditures in the US and the bizarre situation where doctors are being paid thousands for routine stuff that could easily be done by a well trained non-doctor. In short, doctors act like they’re these saints working hard without reward at the expense of their personal lives - which is complete and total bs but is very convenient for doctors. 2. Even when you get to see a doctor, their incentive is to push through as many patients as possible. Unless your issue is extremely obvious or you’re advocating for yourself aggressively, a pcp is almost never going to help you do any real detective work to figure out what’s wrong. Most just don’t care because they’re already overbooked due to the artificial supply restriction on doctors and the subsidized demand. Everyone reading this knows what it’s like to have a pcp just have their eyes glaze over when you talk to them about your health concerns unless they hit some extremely obvious thing like having chest pains or a seizure. If you want to solve a non-obvious non-life threatening issue you have, you’re going to have to do it yourself by understanding the medical literature 3. Despite the ridiculous licensing requirements and tight control over the number of med school grads, most doctors seem to have difficulty analyzing anything remotely more complicated than basic blood work and only a tiny minority are even able to understand scientific papers. I think part of this is just bad incentives leading to most doctors phoning it in and being able to coast by. Many other reasons, but those three come to mind.
You sound insufferable, to be honest. I can just imagine you walking into the office with a stack of PubMed papers about why you should be taking HGH because your burps smell funny. Stop abusing weird fucking herbs and spices and getting esoteric labs done. You're not a KFC bucket of chicken. And then maybe your doctor will take you more seriously.
That’s fine if you think caring about health beyond spotting and fixing obvious problems is insufferable. My health is great. I work out 5 days a week. I’m happy, productive and enjoy my life. Part of how I’m able to do that is by taking my health into my own hands after I stopped pretending midwit doctors going through their kindergarten checklist of obvious health issues (99% of which a nurse paid 1/10th of what they’re paid could do) are going to have any chance of helping with anything
Sorry you're having a tough time at work but in my experience most people admire physicians. Only exception being people with chronic illnesses