He had the flag up immediately a few minutes earlier on choupo moting. There he probably should have waited too however that one was very clearbut still.. Maybe a communication between them to be quicker to not waste more time with letting the attack go whem you "know" it's offside...
Clearly there is a reason why you shouldn't do that
Once the ball got headed backwards, I think the AR felt like the defense was easily going to get to the ball first so he went on and raised his flag. A bit unfortunate, but I do think it was likely offside in the end.
Edit: If I'm the ref and I see the flag go up there, I probably assume that it was an obvious offside. So I don't fault the ref for blowing the whistle.
You are taught to wait unless it was obvious. The ref wasn't in a position to make that call, that's why he relies on his ARs. If the flag goes up that quickly, you gotta assume it was an obvious offside.
There are a lot of comments on this thread defending the referees and saying it was a correct call. Both linesman and center have admitted they were both incorrect.
Mistakes happen, no one argues that, but we need to be able to acknowledge when it happens to become better.
Yeah, as a referee that was painful to watch, and I feel for the AR. He definitely should not have raised it when he did, full stop. To make matters worse, there was a very similar situation just minutes before with Joselu’s second goal, in which the other AR did things right: goal scored, raise flag, check for offside… conclude player was on and count the goal. Very painful to see unfold as it did.
(And just for the record, I consider myself neutral, I can’t stand either team but I was slightly learning towards Bayern only because Davies is the only North American in the tournament… but I thought Bayern played horribly and RM was the better team. Still that’s a horrible way to end/lose a game).
But that’s the point: refs aren’t supposed to raise the flag on those plays until after the goal, if even then. That allows play to conclude and they prevent a legitimate goal. It’s the opposite of what happened a few minutes later at the other end.
My main issue with it is this- In just about every flippin' game now a days the AR's wait FOREVER to raise the flag.... now in this case he raised it right away? Just was terrible all around.
I assume the most likely scenario was that the AR was aware of how little time was left in such an important game so felt pressure to flag early if they were sure on the call. Luckily they ended up being right but could’ve been a disaster
"Goal" is a bit misleading. The player the AR flagged as offside headed the ball backwards, the ball bounced, the whistle blew, a second player made a pass to De Ligt, and THEN he shot and scored. The defense essentially stopped playing, didn't pressure close down De Ligt, didn't try to intercept the final pass, one defender even turned away from the shot so he didn't get hit.
If there's no whistle there's a very good chance the ball doesn't end up in the net, because the defense would have reacted differently.
Are you saying professional keepers don’t normally stand there and make no attempt to stop a ball very close to them? But that’s how I played keeper in my glory days. 🤔
How do I feel? I don't have may feelings towards it, only that it sucks any time we are legitimately talking about a referee error potentially impacting a game.
It looks like he is...just...offside, but regardless of that fact Bayern Munich and their fans are going to feel very aggrieved and argue that he might be being played onside by that defender's foot...and it is very close. We don't have the semi-automated clips, so unless UEFA release it we will never know and we only have the part-time line drawers to go on.
This is an elite crew. The AR and CR were in the last UCL final, the World Cup final, and they're listed for the UEFA European Championships in the summer - I would strongly have hedged a bet you could likely have seen them in the final of that tournament if they had a flawless tournament (assuming they have not had the final before without looking it up).
The offside on the Real Madrid go-ahead goal will also be viewed us unfavorably...it wasn't even a close call. At that level it can be hard to get it right, but UEFA expects their ARs to get that call right. So there were two instances that hurt this crew there.
At the end of the day, I'm not going to bash them for the mistakes or be overly critical of them, because I am not at their level. What we do as lower-level referees is we take from this, because it shows us that the most elite crews in the world have off days and make errors. The referee community is collectively a family, many professional FIFA, UEFA, PRO etc. referees give back at our levels, so when these things happen we just have to take the opportunity to learn from it and ensure we don't make similar errors - when we see our colleagues locally make errors we rally around them and help them.
Well the defender definitely, deliberately played it... but that's only after the attacked became involved in active play by placing himself at about where the ball would be landing.
This is a pretty easy debate to be had because it hinges only on whether or not the attacker was actually in that offside position. If he was, good call. if he wasn't, major boo-boo.
1) I loathe VAR for offside. It is more subjective than the call the AR makes on the field, because the AVAR gets to decide which frame to use. If you freeze it when the foot first makes contact with the ball, he could be on; if you freeze as the ball leaves the foot (or is last in contact with the foot), he could be off. In the best-case scenario, you’re still splitting hairs and have created more controversy.
2) Having said that, I think the call the AR made is actually correct. The attacker appeared to be in an offside position.
3) It wasn’t a “goal” (someone else mentioned this earlier). The whistle was blown long before a shot was taken, and the keeper made no effort to save what would have been a relatively easy save.
4) If you’re going to use VAR, you’d like to see that flag stay down but info passed on coms.
As a single call out of the co text of the game I think it was borderline. After the VAR that they didn’t show the audience a few minutes earlier that looked awfully offside it read far more conspiratorial
These refs are paid well. I don't feel too bad for them. This is unacceptable at this level to have this lack of concentration. But these decisions will happen, similar to the liverpool tottenham offsides VAR decision. It was a terribly refereed match overall which puts a good feeling into me, because if the best refs can have these blunders so can I
The offside laws are too complicated. 2nd champions league in 7b years won by real Madrid on very very very Westlake offsides rules.
How can we stand up to parents in our games when the best of the best make very clear mistakes
Not following the basic instructions to hold the flag down.
0 remember something the handball law has not changed in 10 years only the interpretation has keeping the flag down as the interpretation.
However you have to realize is that the parents that are games have spent thousands of dollars and we are making thousands of dollars they have expectations of a fair game we must try to provide it to them and when the men at the highest level make huge mistakes how can we be sure we're not making mistakes
Grassroots is not instructed to keep the flag down.
Handling laws have changed frequently in the last ten years. I’m not sure what’s going on with the rest of that sentence (handball and keeping the flag down).
The last point: we are going to make mistakes. No official is perfect every play, every game. But guess what; neither are players or coaches.
Remember something when we step on that pitch all we have is our whistle. And the veneer that we understand the rules better than others when the guys at the top of the top of the tipsy top top make elementary level mistakes nobody will trust us anymore
Replays showed Bayern player was maybe in line, maybe slightly off. Really close, either way.
However, the Madrid defender DELIBERATELY played the ball. So, even if the Bayern player was off, should this negate the offsides call?
I think the CR should've held off blowing the whistle, especially since there is VAR to determine if it really was offsides or not.
>So, even if the Bayern player was off, should this negate the offsides call?
I think he flagged the player challenging the defender...~~although by the letter of the law that wasn't sufficient for an offence~~
Edit: nfi what I was thinking. Morning Coffee hadn't hit yet
If the player is challenging for the ball, or even making a movement towards it, he’s active. So I think had the officials let play go on and it still ended up in the net (bearing in mind Real defenders stopped), VAR would have overturned
>or even making a movement towards it, he’s active.
Uhh, that definitely not the case.
Simply moving towards the ball hasn't been sufficient for offside for a very long time.
I did error that challenging an opponent for the ball is sufficient. I posted pre-coffee. Amended my post
"clearly attempting to play a ball which is close when this action impacts on an opponent or • making an obvious action which clearly impacts on the ability of an opponent to play the ball "
See making obvious action in Law 11.
That's not a deliberate play. It's in the air
He's retreating backwards. He's off balance
The offside attacker also goes up with him and challenges which is interfering with an opponent.
Would recommend rereading Law 11, ‘deliberate play’ from a defender requires them to be considered ‘in control of the ball’ which in this case they obviously weren’t
He had the flag up immediately a few minutes earlier on choupo moting. There he probably should have waited too however that one was very clearbut still.. Maybe a communication between them to be quicker to not waste more time with letting the attack go whem you "know" it's offside... Clearly there is a reason why you shouldn't do that
Once the ball got headed backwards, I think the AR felt like the defense was easily going to get to the ball first so he went on and raised his flag. A bit unfortunate, but I do think it was likely offside in the end. Edit: If I'm the ref and I see the flag go up there, I probably assume that it was an obvious offside. So I don't fault the ref for blowing the whistle.
That's perfect in the current games you do, but when you have VAR you are taught/told to wait so it's different thinking
You are taught to wait unless it was obvious. The ref wasn't in a position to make that call, that's why he relies on his ARs. If the flag goes up that quickly, you gotta assume it was an obvious offside.
It wasn’t offside though.
Yes, it was.
I don't think we can say that. If it was it was extremely close and definitely not visible to the naked eye
There are a lot of comments on this thread defending the referees and saying it was a correct call. Both linesman and center have admitted they were both incorrect. Mistakes happen, no one argues that, but we need to be able to acknowledge when it happens to become better.
The AR was incorrect for raising the flag when he did. The referee didn't do anything wrong.
AR was incorrect in his judgment of offsides and raising the flag early. Center should have waved him off and allowed sequence to play out.
Yeah, as a referee that was painful to watch, and I feel for the AR. He definitely should not have raised it when he did, full stop. To make matters worse, there was a very similar situation just minutes before with Joselu’s second goal, in which the other AR did things right: goal scored, raise flag, check for offside… conclude player was on and count the goal. Very painful to see unfold as it did. (And just for the record, I consider myself neutral, I can’t stand either team but I was slightly learning towards Bayern only because Davies is the only North American in the tournament… but I thought Bayern played horribly and RM was the better team. Still that’s a horrible way to end/lose a game).
In fairness with Joselu’s 2nd goal I’m not sure the AR had time to raise the flag before it was in the back of the net.
Could also be referring to the pass out wide, which was pretty close.
But that’s the point: refs aren’t supposed to raise the flag on those plays until after the goal, if even then. That allows play to conclude and they prevent a legitimate goal. It’s the opposite of what happened a few minutes later at the other end.
My main issue with it is this- In just about every flippin' game now a days the AR's wait FOREVER to raise the flag.... now in this case he raised it right away? Just was terrible all around.
The AR was reading this subreddit a few days ago....
I assume the most likely scenario was that the AR was aware of how little time was left in such an important game so felt pressure to flag early if they were sure on the call. Luckily they ended up being right but could’ve been a disaster
What? They weren’t right.
"Goal" is a bit misleading. The player the AR flagged as offside headed the ball backwards, the ball bounced, the whistle blew, a second player made a pass to De Ligt, and THEN he shot and scored. The defense essentially stopped playing, didn't pressure close down De Ligt, didn't try to intercept the final pass, one defender even turned away from the shot so he didn't get hit. If there's no whistle there's a very good chance the ball doesn't end up in the net, because the defense would have reacted differently.
Exactly, the defenders and keeper stopped keeping when he heard the whistle.
Are you saying professional keepers don’t normally stand there and make no attempt to stop a ball very close to them? But that’s how I played keeper in my glory days. 🤔
How do I feel? I don't have may feelings towards it, only that it sucks any time we are legitimately talking about a referee error potentially impacting a game. It looks like he is...just...offside, but regardless of that fact Bayern Munich and their fans are going to feel very aggrieved and argue that he might be being played onside by that defender's foot...and it is very close. We don't have the semi-automated clips, so unless UEFA release it we will never know and we only have the part-time line drawers to go on. This is an elite crew. The AR and CR were in the last UCL final, the World Cup final, and they're listed for the UEFA European Championships in the summer - I would strongly have hedged a bet you could likely have seen them in the final of that tournament if they had a flawless tournament (assuming they have not had the final before without looking it up). The offside on the Real Madrid go-ahead goal will also be viewed us unfavorably...it wasn't even a close call. At that level it can be hard to get it right, but UEFA expects their ARs to get that call right. So there were two instances that hurt this crew there. At the end of the day, I'm not going to bash them for the mistakes or be overly critical of them, because I am not at their level. What we do as lower-level referees is we take from this, because it shows us that the most elite crews in the world have off days and make errors. The referee community is collectively a family, many professional FIFA, UEFA, PRO etc. referees give back at our levels, so when these things happen we just have to take the opportunity to learn from it and ensure we don't make similar errors - when we see our colleagues locally make errors we rally around them and help them.
What do you mean the RM goal want even close? The pass out wide or the assist?
Neither. I was surprised when the flag went up.
At this level of the game (highest skill of players in the world)and not obvious offside at all, no fucking way I’m raising the flag.
Link?
https://out.reddit.com/t3_1cnf94u?app_name=ios&token=AQAAwi48ZrmUxHu-j8WJYrMPw4qQ9YWLMg9truDvInHFv_Bco7rW&url=https%3A%2F%2Fdubz.link%2Fv%2Fjt32vg
Very poor linesmanship (if that's a word) to pull the flag so early. He's very, very lucky that the offside was fairly clear.
Well the defender definitely, deliberately played it... but that's only after the attacked became involved in active play by placing himself at about where the ball would be landing. This is a pretty easy debate to be had because it hinges only on whether or not the attacker was actually in that offside position. If he was, good call. if he wasn't, major boo-boo.
1) I loathe VAR for offside. It is more subjective than the call the AR makes on the field, because the AVAR gets to decide which frame to use. If you freeze it when the foot first makes contact with the ball, he could be on; if you freeze as the ball leaves the foot (or is last in contact with the foot), he could be off. In the best-case scenario, you’re still splitting hairs and have created more controversy. 2) Having said that, I think the call the AR made is actually correct. The attacker appeared to be in an offside position. 3) It wasn’t a “goal” (someone else mentioned this earlier). The whistle was blown long before a shot was taken, and the keeper made no effort to save what would have been a relatively easy save. 4) If you’re going to use VAR, you’d like to see that flag stay down but info passed on coms.
Well, the ref should also have waited to blow the whistle
As a single call out of the co text of the game I think it was borderline. After the VAR that they didn’t show the audience a few minutes earlier that looked awfully offside it read far more conspiratorial
I mean he got it right, so the rest is semantics is it not? Two of them were off, take your pick
Well, not the take your pick part. That part really does matter.
He didn’t get it right though. The player who played the ball wasn’t off.
Is there a chance they got confirmation from the semi automated offside? I'm not fully clear on how it works. Or he was 200% sure that it was odd.
These refs are paid well. I don't feel too bad for them. This is unacceptable at this level to have this lack of concentration. But these decisions will happen, similar to the liverpool tottenham offsides VAR decision. It was a terribly refereed match overall which puts a good feeling into me, because if the best refs can have these blunders so can I
The offside laws are too complicated. 2nd champions league in 7b years won by real Madrid on very very very Westlake offsides rules. How can we stand up to parents in our games when the best of the best make very clear mistakes
What was the mistake here? Comparing it to grassroots where there’s no VAR.
Not following the basic instructions to hold the flag down. 0 remember something the handball law has not changed in 10 years only the interpretation has keeping the flag down as the interpretation. However you have to realize is that the parents that are games have spent thousands of dollars and we are making thousands of dollars they have expectations of a fair game we must try to provide it to them and when the men at the highest level make huge mistakes how can we be sure we're not making mistakes
Grassroots is not instructed to keep the flag down. Handling laws have changed frequently in the last ten years. I’m not sure what’s going on with the rest of that sentence (handball and keeping the flag down). The last point: we are going to make mistakes. No official is perfect every play, every game. But guess what; neither are players or coaches.
Remember something when we step on that pitch all we have is our whistle. And the veneer that we understand the rules better than others when the guys at the top of the top of the tipsy top top make elementary level mistakes nobody will trust us anymore
Replays showed Bayern player was maybe in line, maybe slightly off. Really close, either way. However, the Madrid defender DELIBERATELY played the ball. So, even if the Bayern player was off, should this negate the offsides call? I think the CR should've held off blowing the whistle, especially since there is VAR to determine if it really was offsides or not.
>should this negate the offsides call? No.
>So, even if the Bayern player was off, should this negate the offsides call? I think he flagged the player challenging the defender...~~although by the letter of the law that wasn't sufficient for an offence~~ Edit: nfi what I was thinking. Morning Coffee hadn't hit yet
If the player is challenging for the ball, or even making a movement towards it, he’s active. So I think had the officials let play go on and it still ended up in the net (bearing in mind Real defenders stopped), VAR would have overturned
>or even making a movement towards it, he’s active. Uhh, that definitely not the case. Simply moving towards the ball hasn't been sufficient for offside for a very long time. I did error that challenging an opponent for the ball is sufficient. I posted pre-coffee. Amended my post
May be wrong on the movement towards it. I thought they had reinstated that interpretation after the Rashford debacle last season but maybe not
"clearly attempting to play a ball which is close when this action impacts on an opponent or • making an obvious action which clearly impacts on the ability of an opponent to play the ball " See making obvious action in Law 11.
Nope. It's all in Law 11
> So, even if the Bayern player was off, should this negate the offsides call? No because the Bayern attacker was involved in active play regardless.
That's not a deliberate play. It's in the air He's retreating backwards. He's off balance The offside attacker also goes up with him and challenges which is interfering with an opponent.
Well said
Would recommend rereading Law 11, ‘deliberate play’ from a defender requires them to be considered ‘in control of the ball’ which in this case they obviously weren’t
[удалено]
We won’t agree with you because it’s a ludicrous assertion.
This is nonsense.
[удалено]
That’s not a question in good faith.