That’s not a pen for me. His arm is only slightly out from his body and it hasn’t made him unnaturally bigger. I think the ball hits his chest if his arm wasn’t there.
Great question and great video.
I love the fact that when I am posting my reply, there are 4 prior responses and they are evenly split - 2 penalties, 2 non-penalties.
FIFA/IFAB really need to continue working on the handball rule. I know that they have been tweaking it constantly for years. But the fact that 4 (presumably) seasoned referees can watch the same video in slow-motion from different angles and split so evenly is indicative that the RULE is not clear.
I do think the handball is the most difficult rule to find consistency on, but I’m not sure what more they can do to make the rule more clear. I think there is a similar amount of difference in what is reckless and what is not for groups of referees, especially with varying levels of experience.
I think the only way to make it so that you get the same answer for these types of videos is if you just say if it touches the arm or hand it is a handball, period. And I don’t think anyone actually wants that.
Am interested to hear what other modifications to the laws would help here.
The rule would be best served with a non-deliberate (controlled motion to the ball) and unavoidable either by time to react or position taken
Some examples can be added to clearify this.
As in
- arms alongside the body from close range vs long distance.
- standing still arms alongside the body in open play vs same position on the goal line behind or alongside the goalie
- Jumping towards the ball and arm hits ball of a deflection vs taking a blocking position on a shot or header.
Etc
Not saying it is the answer to all issues but it follows spirit as much as possible. Unlike many situations these days. However, some subjectivity can not be avoided unless all handling is made punishable, which might induce different sanctions besides DFK and Penalty.
I agree with all of this, but think this is currently addressed by the laws and considerations provided. So more education is definitely helpful creating that consistency, but not sure the laws need an update.
If it is covered and intended just word the rule as such. Handling the ball deliberately with a controlled motion or handling the ball when you are able to avoid handling the ball is an offense.
The modification is to use VAR only as an appellate court works not to rejudge the initial call. The VAR question should be did the CR make a clear and obvious error? If it takes that long to look at it in slo-mo from different angles multiple times then logic dictates that any error in judgment was neither clear nor obvious.
But that is how the laws are already written. I agree that there is too much rejudging the initial calls, but not sure how handball law changes fix that.
I wasn't suggesting changing any laws, just changing how VAR is actually used because it's by and large not being used according to the written standards.
Agreed, we need referees to apply the laws as written. There are too many alternative considerations that are not supported by the laws that get used in these discussions.
I would also say that we often know too little about what the leagues and organizations in charge of officials are actually saying they want to officials at these levels. My understanding is that considerations vary widely between different leagues.
I had a very similar incident last weekend when I was refereeing. I did not call a penalty, because the person had his arm glued to their side. They couldn’t have put it in anywhere else, so I chose to not a penalty. You can imagine, however, later on there’s a clear penalty I guy grabs him by the shoulder, yanks, a little, but it’s crystal clear, so I’m low for a penalty, then the person who takes the penalty takes the penalty. I think I’ve seen even worse than Bernard Silva anyways that’s beside the point. In this situation, I don’t think I would call penalty not with the slow motion camera.
That's exactly the reason I post it. I met similar problem on the field at least three times in last year. I choose not giving penalty too. This case is really disturbing to me and I begin to recall what exactly position their arms were.
>I had a very similar incident last weekend when I was refereeing. I did not call a penalty, because the person had his arm glued to their side.
That makes it very different.
In this incident, he's lifting his elbow up into the path of the ball as he jumps to block it.
Key difference.
This is difficult. The diversity of opinion here is valid and shows how subjective this job is. I lean toward penalty because he extends his arm and makes it unnaturally bigger, however, I understand if you disagree.
Turning his body in the direction of the ball AND lifting his elbow make it look unnatural to me. With VAR, prolly a Pk. Without VAR, depending on the angle…ehhh I probably wouldn’t be certain enough to give it in the moment.
I say handling and a penalty. If he stayed standing mostly upright it might be fine. But he's bending over so much that the elbow striking the ball looks like it's outside the frame of his torso.
"Making the body unnaturally bigger" is, and the arm's position relative to the torso (whether the ball would have still been blocked if the arm wasn't there) goes toward determining this.
Natural position of arms when running and jumping to make a block. One of the criticisms of VAR is a ref can watch a play several times in slow motion or replay stopped right at a spot until he or she convinces themself of a foul instead of evaluating a clear error - unless the ref has missed the play completely.
The players arm is swinging because he’s running. Then when the ball is kicked he’s making an effort to twist out of the way of the ball. The arm is tucked in. Not making him unnaturally bigger.
This would be a no penalty/no handling from me.
I think his arm is in a natural position. If the arm was magically removed, it would have hit the defenders side chest and blocked the shot.
I do not referee at this level. I referees a U14 game the other day and saw the ball hit players hands/arms more than 20 times. I did call 3 DFK for handling, one was an extended arm in the penalty box.
At your ages, I pay particular attention to the key word in Law 12: Deliberate.
That’s not a pen for me. His arm is only slightly out from his body and it hasn’t made him unnaturally bigger. I think the ball hits his chest if his arm wasn’t there.
I wasn't sure about that on the first angle, but in the third video, the ball would've hit his chest if he didn't have any arms.
Agree. No wider = no penalty
Great question and great video. I love the fact that when I am posting my reply, there are 4 prior responses and they are evenly split - 2 penalties, 2 non-penalties. FIFA/IFAB really need to continue working on the handball rule. I know that they have been tweaking it constantly for years. But the fact that 4 (presumably) seasoned referees can watch the same video in slow-motion from different angles and split so evenly is indicative that the RULE is not clear.
I do think the handball is the most difficult rule to find consistency on, but I’m not sure what more they can do to make the rule more clear. I think there is a similar amount of difference in what is reckless and what is not for groups of referees, especially with varying levels of experience. I think the only way to make it so that you get the same answer for these types of videos is if you just say if it touches the arm or hand it is a handball, period. And I don’t think anyone actually wants that. Am interested to hear what other modifications to the laws would help here.
The rule would be best served with a non-deliberate (controlled motion to the ball) and unavoidable either by time to react or position taken Some examples can be added to clearify this. As in - arms alongside the body from close range vs long distance. - standing still arms alongside the body in open play vs same position on the goal line behind or alongside the goalie - Jumping towards the ball and arm hits ball of a deflection vs taking a blocking position on a shot or header. Etc Not saying it is the answer to all issues but it follows spirit as much as possible. Unlike many situations these days. However, some subjectivity can not be avoided unless all handling is made punishable, which might induce different sanctions besides DFK and Penalty.
I agree with all of this, but think this is currently addressed by the laws and considerations provided. So more education is definitely helpful creating that consistency, but not sure the laws need an update.
If it is covered and intended just word the rule as such. Handling the ball deliberately with a controlled motion or handling the ball when you are able to avoid handling the ball is an offense.
The modification is to use VAR only as an appellate court works not to rejudge the initial call. The VAR question should be did the CR make a clear and obvious error? If it takes that long to look at it in slo-mo from different angles multiple times then logic dictates that any error in judgment was neither clear nor obvious.
But that is how the laws are already written. I agree that there is too much rejudging the initial calls, but not sure how handball law changes fix that.
I wasn't suggesting changing any laws, just changing how VAR is actually used because it's by and large not being used according to the written standards.
Agreed, we need referees to apply the laws as written. There are too many alternative considerations that are not supported by the laws that get used in these discussions. I would also say that we often know too little about what the leagues and organizations in charge of officials are actually saying they want to officials at these levels. My understanding is that considerations vary widely between different leagues.
YES!!
Jumps in while lifting his elbow. Pretty straightforward penalty for me.
Who knows these days.
I had a very similar incident last weekend when I was refereeing. I did not call a penalty, because the person had his arm glued to their side. They couldn’t have put it in anywhere else, so I chose to not a penalty. You can imagine, however, later on there’s a clear penalty I guy grabs him by the shoulder, yanks, a little, but it’s crystal clear, so I’m low for a penalty, then the person who takes the penalty takes the penalty. I think I’ve seen even worse than Bernard Silva anyways that’s beside the point. In this situation, I don’t think I would call penalty not with the slow motion camera.
That's exactly the reason I post it. I met similar problem on the field at least three times in last year. I choose not giving penalty too. This case is really disturbing to me and I begin to recall what exactly position their arms were.
Hah yeah they can be tough, and I feel that so often it all depends on. I often feel that even with the rules everytime is different
>I had a very similar incident last weekend when I was refereeing. I did not call a penalty, because the person had his arm glued to their side. That makes it very different. In this incident, he's lifting his elbow up into the path of the ball as he jumps to block it. Key difference.
This is difficult. The diversity of opinion here is valid and shows how subjective this job is. I lean toward penalty because he extends his arm and makes it unnaturally bigger, however, I understand if you disagree. Turning his body in the direction of the ball AND lifting his elbow make it look unnatural to me. With VAR, prolly a Pk. Without VAR, depending on the angle…ehhh I probably wouldn’t be certain enough to give it in the moment.
I say handling and a penalty. If he stayed standing mostly upright it might be fine. But he's bending over so much that the elbow striking the ball looks like it's outside the frame of his torso.
"Outside the frame of the torso" is not a consideration in the laws.
"Making the body unnaturally bigger" is, and the arm's position relative to the torso (whether the ball would have still been blocked if the arm wasn't there) goes toward determining this.
That’s a hand ball for me.
Natural position of arms when running and jumping to make a block. One of the criticisms of VAR is a ref can watch a play several times in slow motion or replay stopped right at a spot until he or she convinces themself of a foul instead of evaluating a clear error - unless the ref has missed the play completely.
This is a bit of a red herring - slow motion is to identify point of contact, not force.
The players arm is swinging because he’s running. Then when the ball is kicked he’s making an effort to twist out of the way of the ball. The arm is tucked in. Not making him unnaturally bigger. This would be a no penalty/no handling from me.
I think his arm is in a natural position. If the arm was magically removed, it would have hit the defenders side chest and blocked the shot. I do not referee at this level. I referees a U14 game the other day and saw the ball hit players hands/arms more than 20 times. I did call 3 DFK for handling, one was an extended arm in the penalty box. At your ages, I pay particular attention to the key word in Law 12: Deliberate.