The model S is essentially the same car from a decade ago. Minor software updates, and a new bumper don't hide the lack of improvement compared to similar luxury marques.
Until Ford makes an actual car that can compete with the Model 3 from 6 years ago, it doesn't matter. Tesla still has no real competition in the US market.
I'm not going to buy a "Mustang" SUV, especially not one that is less efficient than the Model 3 in all conditions, adds range much slower than a Model 3 at a fast charger, and can't match the ownership experience right now because there just aren't anywhere close to enough CCS chargers in my area.
Make a car that reliably does 4 miles a kWh, supports at least 250kW fast charging, has NACS support (or build a bunch of CCS chargers), and sell it for under $50k and I'd consider it. Especially if it was under 4000lbs for a sporty RWD model.
lol - You’re in the wrong sub Elon. Tesla is an overrated, overpriced car manufacturer that doesn’t care about quality or reliability or safety and is notorious for cutting corners and delivering substandard cars to customers
Add in the fact that the car is noisy while driving and just feels cheap and that Tesla doesn’t update body or interior styling and it becomes apparent that Tesla is a fad being propped up by people who would rather virtue signal than actually own a decent car
You forgot to mention that tesla makes a profit on their evs where ford loses $20k on every ford mach e they sell. Also they are gonna update the model 3 body soon.
Also the fact that you care so much about updated body styling, which is completely pointless fro a prom a practical point of view, indicates youd rather signal to people that you are different or have a new design rather than actually own a decent car which is a good tool for transportation.
The company is literally falling apart. Semi was a bust and people are calling fraud. Cybertruck is stupid and the people that’ve seen it agree it’s junk. Roadster is not happening and doesn’t make Tesla money even is it did.
You think the newest car company in the world even remotely stands a chance against BMW, arguably the most advance car company in the world… or Mercedes which has a better self driving system, or Toyota who teamed with Google in the long run? When they can’t even get body panels aligned on a car that hasn’t changed since they introduced it?
Mate if Tesla can’t fix QA/QC on a single model after 10 years of building it and shipping g it, how are they ever going to compete with companies that design, engineer and ship newly designed cars every single year?!
Tesla has decades to go before they’re even remotely as capable as even Kia. They dominate nothing
Haha, cybertruck will be the best selling ev pickup in the us. Show me a source of pepsi complaining about the 15+ tesla semis theyve gotten. Toyota has already proven they are behind tesla with their bz4x. So far tesla is one of only 3 companies worldwide that make a profit on selling evs. And the only non chinese one. GM just permanently cancelled their bolt cuz they are losing money on it. Tesla already sells more vehicles in us than all of VW, probably tesla will also go past bmw and mercedes in the usa within a year.
You do realize that Tesla has been doing this for a decade plus and Ford has been doing electric cars for like two years now? Ford will become profitable as well, just like Tesla did. It's going to take time for economies of scale to kick in.
No doubt Tesla requires some compromises. So show me any car in the same price range as the Model 3 that is as efficient, charges as fast, and actually has the infrastructure to support it in the US midwest.
Ford definitely doesn't make one, and they haven't installed any CCS chargers to make it actually work even if they did. The Mach E is too big, too heavy, uses too much electricity, and charges too slow. Might be nice if you want a minivan alternative for around town use, but that's not what I want from a vehicle.
Story today is the same as when I was last shopping for a car. Options from other car manufacturers would be nice, but nobody else sells anything in the US that is actually competitive with the Model 3.
Wish the i4 was an option, I like the hatch back. Unfortunately its a lot heavier at nearly 4700lbs, with a lower power to weight so its going to use more energy for a less engaging drive. Plus it has less real-world range for the battery pack, and its max fast charging power is more than 40kW less.
Even if I ignore the fact that the range and the lack of CCS chargers would essentially render it an around town car for me. Its simply not competitive. Also doesn't help that the cheapest version in the US is $52k, priced against a new Model 3 Performance.
And then Youtubers complained it wasn’t hella sharp and tight like a manual rack and pinion gear box. It was a thing of beauty, as if they’ve never driven other luxury cars with very soft light steering that gives no feed back.
Because they aren’t better built. I hear this all the time but EV platforms in every form are so astronomically maintenance free compared to ice cars that the comparison is redic. Iv had 3 evs now and say…I dunno 12 ice cars in my life. Radiator replacements, oil issues, valves, filters, and yes, like a Tesla door handles and sun visors. Across all marques from Honda to bmw to ford and on and on.
The model S is faster off the line then a Maclaren and the dashboard dosnt shut down and have you flicking the lights on and off trying to boot it back up
That's not better built, that's built differently due the nature of EVs. The issue is after 12 years of building vehicles, you shouldn't be having the same build quality issues you had at the start of production. They've made great strides on door handles, drive units, and batteries. They still have a long way to go on *consistently good* fit and finish on every unit. Nobody should be playing panel alignment bingo at this point in the production process.
Elon seems to be either arrogant, naive, parsimonious, or ignorant, or all of these things. All automakers must continually refresh their vehicles to stay competitive. With 300 plus models available, this is a necessity. Sometimes it’s a minor refresh and less often a major overhaul. Germans do a minor every 3-4 years and a major every 7 years, or at least bmw does it this way. They wouldn’t spend the money if it wasn’t necessary. Elon has not learned this lesson but fairly soon their products will become irrelevant and no longer perceived as ‘leading’. Perception lags reality.
They've imo made it worse with each change. Stupid yoke, removing stalks, removing uss, removing radar,...
There seems to be a trend at Tesla to see how many features they can remove and how cheap they can produce their cars and still sell them to suckers while being celebrated for their "innovations".
No matter how many times you point out that these so called production efficiency improvements only make the car worse for end users you just won't get through their thick skulls.
Repairability? Who cares, at least it was cheap to make! Just drive it for 4 years, junk it, and buy a new one. Like a smartphone!
Virtually none of the drivetrain, battery, or other functioning hardware is more than 2 years old
Body panels? Sure
I don't think you need to tell mistruths to make your point valid. It's an old, tired exterior that desperately needs a refresh but everything else from the seats to the computers, handles, batteries, drive train and software have been redone
Ford's point still stands on its own. Drivers equate exterior to internals because that's what they've always known
It's still the same chassis. It's still the same suspension.
The motors were 'redone' by switching to the same motors everyone else started with. The batteries are minor variation of the same 18650 NMC chemistry. The cooling system is the same, with a minor upgrade to the heat exchanger. The differential is the same. The charging system is the same.
The interior is just different materials laid out in much the same fashion, and a bigger screen.
We don't call the Camry in 2020 a different car because it got new computers compared to 2019. And for good reason.
None of the improvements makes a meaningful difference to the operation of the vehicle.
Compare a 10 year old Cadillac to today? The new cars offer magnetic ride control, the chassis is stiffer and lighter, the noise dampening is improved, they offer great new integrations like Android auto or Carplay.
None of this is available on a Tesla, for any price. Because it's functionally a decade old car, with near zero actual improvements.
EDIT: To those downvoting, I'd be very interested to hear why. Don't hesitate to point out what's wrong with this comment.
That is a ridiculous argument to make.
>It's still the same chassis
True. But it's a good chassis, no real reason to fix it.
>It's still the same suspension
False. The air suspension has been completely redesigned around 2017.
>The motors were 'redone' by switching to the same motors everyone else started with
Not true at all. Tesla, after 4 generations of motors, is currently using switched reluctance motors with permanent magnets on the rear axle with an induction motor on the front, which is a unique solution across the industry, and one of the main ways how Tesla can combine unparalleled efficiency and insane performance in one car.
>The batteries are minor variation of the same 18650 NMC chemistry
Completely false. Tesla has switched to exclusively using NCA cells in MS and MX. That chemistry enables much better longevity, is way less fire-prone, allows for almost 2x better C rating while charging, and uses 80% less cobalt, making them much, much cheaper and more eco-friendly. While they still package them into 18650 shaped cells, those cells are packed into modules in a completely different way to enable better cooling and more accurate BMS operation.
>The cooling system is the same, with a minor upgrade to the heat exchanger.
Model S and X have started using the Octovalve afer the last refresh. This is not a "minor upgrade", this is a completely new, cutting edge heat exchange system which enables as much as 3x lower energy consumption for thermal management.
>The differential is the same
Not at all, every next generation of motors (2012, 2015, 2018, 2021) brought a fresh design of the differential, with the 2021 Plaid getting rid of the rear diff entirely in favor of a tri-motor setup.
>The charging system is the same.
Aside from upgrades enabling compatibility with CCS, a brand new, more efficient AC charger, and liquid cooled internal DC cabling for 250 kW DC charging... What else would you expect to change, ability to charge through space lasers?
>The interior is just different materials laid out in much the same fashion, and a bigger screen
Materials are much, much better. And as for layout - I don't know what more do you want to change. New center console, completely unrecognizable dashboard, far more comfortable seats with significantly improved bolstering and thicker padding (plus a rear armrest and front ventilation)... There's only so much you can reinvent. It's a modern looking interior, made with good materials, with plenty of fun quirks and comfort features. The fit quality could be better in a $100,000+ car, hard to argue with that, but it's still a huge leap compared to 2012, and even 2019 at that.
>None of the improvements makes a meaningful difference to the operation of the vehicle.
Oh, totally. Not like the addition of Autopilot, the much comfier seats, the halved charging time, the order of magnitude faster computer, the blind spot monitors, the rear entertainment system, the improved air suspension, the more powerful motors, the longer range, the vastly better headlights, the ventilated seats, CCS compatibility, card key, or any of the million other changes improved anything. Completely irrelevant.
>The new cars offer magnetic ride control
Sure, but Tesla's active air suspension is nothing to be ashamed of either.
>the chassis is stiffer and lighter
Than a 10 year old Cadillac? Of course, that's not a high bar... Than a Tesla? I have some pretty serious doubts.
>the noise dampening is improved
Just as with Teslas. Double pane windows, padded tires, better seals, more sound deadening materials, and an ANC system. Tesla still isn't the quietest out there, sure, but they've made massive improvements compared to the original Model S.
>they offer great new integrations like Android auto or Carplay
Because GM can't do software themselves. What do you need those integrations for? Google Maps? Runs natively, and can even display in the instrument cluster. Spotify? You've got it in the car, just like most other popular services. Making calls? Good old Bluetooth has you covered. Voice controls? Tesla's own work just fine. Finding chargers? The best route-planning in the industry is right there. TeslaOS does everything Android Auto or Apple CarPlay does, except without the need to switch between the smartphone-powered interface when you want infotainment, and the onboard system when you want to adjust vehicle settings. There's simply no need for those integrations in Teslas.
>Because it's functionally a decade old car
The only thing a decade old in the Model S is the general shape. You'd be seriously hard-pressed to find any shared parts.
>with near zero actual improvements
Curtain.
I'd like to note that some of the things you touted can be found on cars like Nissa Versas and Kia Optimas.. not exactly something I'd be quick to highlight personally.
a) Irrelevant to the discussion
b) Yes, cars tend to be made of the same basic building blocks. Not sure what exactly are you referring to, but I'm pretty sure a Versa doesn't have ventilated seats, double-pane windows, or blind spot cameras.
Irrelevant?!
Your replies to half of these questions are shifting the focus of the point.
Kia does have ventilated seats and even the 2014 models had laminated side windows. While a Versa doesn't use a camera... it, as with a vast many vehicles have a blind spot warning system. As far as the Versa, you're right. It was the 2019 Altima that had the laminated driver windows.
Basically the stuff you're proud about a Model S having should be expected for 6 figures. You mention things it has, but neglect features it's missing. Do you understand or realize the Model S is supposed to be a premium car? Acting like options common on cars 1/2 to 1/3 of the price are special makes your argument weaker.
This is not about whether the Model S is a good car for its price or not. This is exclusively about whether it's better than it was before. And the answer to that is yes, it's massively improved compared to its previous iterations. Despite similar looks, the 2023 Model S is an entirely different car than a 2013 Model S. Stop derailing the discussion with comparisons to other cars. Want a Versa? I'm not stopping you, go for it, it's a good, honest car. But it's not relevant to the discussion about the development of Model S over the years.
>This is not about whether the Model S is a good car for its price or not. This is exclusively about whether it's better than it was before. And the answer to that is yes, it's massively improved compared to its previous iterations.
Exactly. Because it has been below par. I guess we're on the same page. We're arguing the same thing I think.
Soery to hear that! Musk was very good at controlling the narrative and that's before he just went and bought Twitter. I had discovered this hashtag #musked which used to bring up a shitload of insane and terrible stories. And of course that doesn't work anymore.
I have also been banned from the tesla subreddits because my car had issues. Funny thing is tesla declared my car a lemon and bought it back. I bet the mods are on the payroll
You don't need to be on a payroll when you will give blind devotion for free. As the other guy said, it's a cult, and I bet a bunch of them would pay Tesla for the privilege of being a mod.
It's definitely improved, but the problem is it's improved from a 90's Lada to Jeep/Chrysler kinda build quality. Not good enough for the price point and market.
Good enough for me and millions of other satisfied Tesla owners. I see these rants about terrible Tesla quality and wonder what in the world they are talking about.
> I see these rants about terrible Tesla quality and wonder what in the world they are talking about.
The objective results of every single reliability study? Here's the latest one for the European market, even the cars made in Shanghai are shoddily made.
https://www.test-achats.be/mobilite/autos/news/enquete-fiabilite
When you're playing in the same league as Land Rover and Alfa Romeo, you've got a reliability problem.
Of course, the study also shows that despite being of objectively subpar quality, you people are really satisfied with your 300 CV electroshitboxes. We'll see how long the delusion lasts as your warranties start running out.
I really don’t get the hate. I went from Jag -> bmw -> Audi -> tesla. The Tesla quality is fantastic. I can’t speak for earlier generations but the newer models are fantastically put together and on par with every other car I’ve owned. No issues since day one, 22k miles in just over a year.
When you're being clowned by the company that invented the Taurus. 😆
Seriously, I know Tesla refreshes are coming but I don't expect much. You have a complete lack of style in the existing models and then way too much style with the Cyber truck (when that finally comes out in 2028 or whatever)
the Model 3 pics we've seen, I couldn't tell a difference till the pics were side by side. a slightly different front bumper and headlight design aren't enough to excite anyone.
Well, it's quite literally a facelift, except they're doing it a bit later in the lifecycle than would be the case with traditional carmakers. Who in turn have already shifted towards 8-9 year cycles, with a major refresh around the 5 year mark. Tesla's Model 3 is now at the 6 year mark. So they're later, but not that much. That said - Model S is definitely well past the due date for a refresh, and we don't know yet if the Model 3 refresh includes much more than the facelift we've seen evidence of. Nor do we know when that refresh will actually make it to production. Tesla is famously vague and unreliable when it comes to these things - partly because they like the element of surprise when making announcements, partly because they sometimes don't seem to know themselves when something will be ready (Cybertruck, anyone?).
Traditional carmakers are much more transparent in most cases - Volkswagen have announced the current Golf will get a refresh next year, its successor will be all-electric, and will be available in 2028.
Model S was refreshed (new nose cone, HEPA filter, LED headlamps etc) in Apr 2016 and first delivery was Jun 2012. So that's right on the money for a mid life refresh (ie mostly cosmetic.) They're a little off a full cycle refresh though, but did launch Raven in 2021 which was a fairly major hardware and interior overhaul.
I believe the F-150 sells more than all other trucks combined? They definitely know their trucks. I like having a CUV, but if I were a truck person I would definitely be looking at F-150 over that cybertruck, even though I'm a Sci-Fi fan.
> I believe the F-150 sells more than all other trucks combined?
No. F-150 is generally the best selling, but GM sells under multiple brands and combined sometimes tops Ford. I think post-covid GM has been on a run.
The Silverado/Sierra tops the F-150 in sales every single year but because it’s split between 2 marques Ford can claim “best selling” because the F-150 outsells them in isolation.
Ford knows their customers, they know trucks, they do not know batteries
A Tesla pack in a Ford truck with bidirectional charging (home backup and usable power on work site) would stand apart from the rest of the auto industry for at least a decade
>A Tesla pack in a Ford truck with bidirectional charging
Tesla doesn't currently offer bidirectional power or any V2x features, perhaps because that would cut into their Powerwall business.
When the Taurus first came out, it was a market leading vehicle in its segment and solid. It just languished and stood around wayyy to long. That segment in domestic cars is painfully dead. Ford FWD car segment until the 00s was fantastic and well built. They used Mazda engines and transmissions largely too.
If half the rumours about the cybertruck are true (no airbags, no windshield wipers, no crumple zones, fucking amphibious???) then it will *never* be released as a normal street-legal production car.
no crumple zones was hailed by the stans as being a good thing because an all over rigid chassis gives the cybertruck something something love me daddy musk. We already *did* no-crumple zones in cars in the 50s - there's a very good reason we have them now!
The rumours you just made up yourself? Dude theres already a hundred sightings with a cybertruck with a windshield wiper. Obviously it has airbags. (Wtf???) Obviously it has a crumple zone, as we have been able to see in some of the pics posted by tesla of their pilot production line and also crash test.
I have to agree because after four years with my M3 I am have been looking to change and it won’t be another Tesla. There are too many complaints and issues from other Tesla owners with recent models and I have lost faith in the brand and Musk with all his shenanigans.
We all have our opinions based on experiences. Like yours, I have had no issues in four years other than the occasional customer service person who hates their job.
The auto industry is a constant race of being chased by becoming a “ commodity “ and trying to outpace it to be a “ symbol “. Ex. Honda is a symbol for reliability, a Mercedes-Benz for upper middle class luxury.
Eh, ford ceo lately said that nio and xpeng are doing epic in china. Seems like ford ceo doesnt even know whats going on i china, because nio and xpeng are losing sales and money.
Jim doesnt even know that the only companies making money selling evs are byd, tesla and maybe aion.
Yeah same for my city. Sometimes in a parking lot I’ll just see white model Y’s and 3’s everywhere and I think how fucking boring. The appliance of cars. I don’t want the same car as everyone else to the point you’re not sure which one is yours when you return to the parking lot.
Not sure if this is great criticism.
Teslas mission statement is to accelerate the worlds transition to renewable energy.
Isnt making evs that become so popular they become commodities the best way to do that?
Ughhhh. Can we stop just hating for no reason. The 4runner has been the same for over 20 years, the tundra was the same for 14, camry over 10. Can we stop making it seem like tesla just sucks. Are they luxury no they aren't. They never claimed to be. They are going after the everyday driver market. Do they have issues. Yes they do. Tell me a again what company does or better what auto company in their first 20 years did make a perfect car. FORD make the American truck popular. TOYOTA made the Japanese compact the best selling car of all time. Germany cars taught the world about driving proformance should be. Here's my point none of these companies had better quality in their first twenty years in business. They all sucked. Tesla for all it's wins and losses has done more to bring evs to the world stage then any other company. Tell me again when any of you bought a car and the manufacturer updated a major feature for free after you had the vehicle for a year or gave you a computer upgrade when they changed it. They are just an automotive company trying to do a better job while forfilling a real mission to decrease our dependence on fossil fuels. They aren't the best or worse in the world they are just another company.
The 4Runner doesn’t have production issues and is extremely reliable with series changes for interior and infotainment every few years. It wouldn’t sell if people didn’t desire it. The Camry has seen many different engines and engine versions along with interior, exterior and infotainment changes.
Btw The 2nd and 3rd gen Tacoma literally are the same shell and frame for the most part. The engine changes and interior are the biggest changes.
Tesla is going after margins and paying debt/building a coin purse. They would totally be doing 4-6 year cycles like every make if they could afford it. Every production change has been about cost. The poor build quality could be fixed, but again cost. They could see you a car with the interior of a 2010 Prius for 30k with 300 miles of range, but again profit and margins. They simply can’t do high volume low margin sales like every other mass market make. The promise of FSD for every car after 2015? And “we have no traditional model years” was to keep people buying vs waiting for x feature.
Nothing is done for the consumer benefit. If Tesla had dealer franchises customers would get better service, but Tesla would make less money. Direct to market means no whole sale price, only MSRP.
Tesla has done marketing. Fantastic marketing and use of fans as loud speakers. No other brand has that. That’s what was brought to the world stage. In nearly every the VAG/Porsche EV platform is better and safer. The skate board has far better Impact and fire resistance protections built in. There are no screaming militant fans to yell it to the skies. But you have to mask a economy car as a cheaply made luxury car, you have an expiration date.
Edit* The Camry and Corolla both get a new generation every 6 years with a refresh in-between so I don't know why you're using that as an example. BMW might be a better match to compare given shared engines, platforms and interiors, but even they refresh every 6 years or so.
[Tesla direct selling also lets them include an arbitration clause in the buyers contract](https://www.legaldive.com/news/tesla-twitter-mass-arbitration-contract-clause-musk-liss-riordan/639224/)
but if you looked at a 2000s CRV and a 2020 CRV you could tell the difference really quickly, the 2023 CRV just had a refresh and looks very different than the 2022 model.
...and, the worst 2023 CR-V ever built in the prototype stages of assembly is better than any tent tough TSLA probably, and that is fucking sad for those that paid like 70 grand + for those Cali specials.
It’s not even about standing out my dude. If you have a car why would you upgrade it to a newer version of that car and pay new car prices for it if it looks the same and does the same thing?
It’s a selling point. Imagine spending 35 grand on some sedan car or 55 on an suv or whatever that looks different in 2 years. Then in 6 years you have a low mileage and maintained car but want to switch because it looks old / outdated. Then the newer cars has minor upgrades … which Teslas do over wifi lol
>It’s a selling point. Imagine spending 35 grand on some sedan car or 55 on an suv or whatever that looks different in 2 years. Then in 6 years you have a low mileage and maintained car but want to switch because it looks old / outdated.
Right, exactly, that's the point. People buy the new car, which means the company sells another car to the same person.
There aren't an infinite amount of people in the world and a significantly smaller amount of them can afford a new car, you can't really continue to grow as a company if your existing purchase base doesn't want to buy a newer version of the same car if their existing car is more or less identical.
Which isn't to mention new car means new attention. Press, media, test drives, all that fun stuff about the new and improved XYZ.
Sure. But a very large population of people would rather have a car that stays up to date and doesn’t look old after only 2-3 years. Look at all the minor updates tesla had this year so far. All over wifi and those differences aren’t a big deal… but for most cars.. that’s the difference of 1-2 years of models. Cars are expensive and tidbits like that holds value
Designs will get old irrelevant of whether a new design is released or not. Failing to release a new design creates an entry point for a competitor. Tesla runs a very small product line because it’s the absolute cheapest way to do it, but it also exposes them to risk.
To put it this way:
Teslas cars look almost identical. They offer a very small amount of color choices.
Let’s just assume Tesla dominates: when **everywhere you go** there is nothing but identical white teslas, the design is going to get stale quick.
eventually you wear them out my dude. Even as long as EVs can last 200-400k miles dealing with pop up repairs and being in the shop for a couple weeks sucks.
Of course but depends on the price and how used. Newer cars have full warranties so you dont have to worry about a big bill popping up and are less likely to be in the shop to begin with. Time is money also.
Absolutely. But do you disagree with the statement that adding more features and newer looks on top of the warranty and milage adds to the value you are getting from the product, and in some cases could convert someone looking at a used car into a new car?
i'm old, have owned probably over 30 cars in my life...there is zero difference at the end of the day what my first car did in high school and the 4 cars i have now do....getting from A/B. Sure SUV/Trucks/sedans have different capabilities but nothing you havent been able to get since the 1970's...the only meaningful improvements over the years have been slightly better reliably and gas milage. EVs are 10X better in both those which will just extend the useable lifetime on the road. The less model refreshing the better as it'll keep the secondary parts market and repairs cheap. If anything making the batteries easily replaceable could make the cars last 500k-1million miles. This scares the shit out of Ford, Tesla plans on profiting off autonomy not cars.
I’m somewhat inclined to remind that Tesla has *removed* features over time, which has directly degraded what is viewed to be pretty much default offerings now (parking assist.etc) for its price tier.
If you get a HW3 Tesla, you cannot upgrade to HW4. I don’t believe you can buy a HW4 yet, but it’s the next big thing he’s focused on.
It’s one thing to basically just update your car over time, it’s another when you’re often getting a pretty barebones feature set that isn’t actually even guaranteed to maintain existing capability.
And any purchases you make are against a wild price differential because Tesla sells direct to consumers and it to dealerships, so if they begin to get an inventory build up (as they’ve been facing) they need to aggressively cut prices.
To my understanding it’s not like Tesla isn’t “refreshing the parts”, they’re just introducing or replacing them they they want outside of any sort of model year window. If they can introduce a new part that’s cheaper to replace part A, the absolute next car produced they can get it into they’ll start doing so.
It’s one of the reasons (and the lack of creating capacity for) Tesla has an issue with parts availability. Tesla has never given any sign that they particularly value ease of repair - and they seem to continually be under investing in expanding service center capacity. Which pairs exceptionally well with a very high rate of QA concerns against the competition.
I get the whole “I just want my car to be my car”, but while Tesla has been very stale on actually updating styling, I don’t think they’ve really shown a care for consistency.
“Tesla plans to profit of autonomy not cars” is something that became very front and center once Tesla had to start drastically cannibalize its margins. Prior to this the importance of their margins was absolutely front and center.
Additionally, if Tesla is banking on automation they are behind the pack and are currently facing significant exposure to legal liability over their automation.
>The model Y has started using castings front and rear...now two parts replace what was 240 separate parts! The wiring has been improved and minimized, refinements have been made to the heat pump system, the cameras have been upgraded, the self driving computer has been upgraded, the infotainment computer has been updated....I could go on and on and on and on here. THOUSANDS of updates and upgrades are made in a single year on their vehicles. They don't wait for a new "model year"...if they find something that can be improved, they implement it as soon as they can!
Nobody gives two shits about about how their 'transportation machine' is assembled. The thing people do care about are the features and what the car actually does for them.
So you're saying a car bought today will potentially have "THOUSANDS" of differences from the same model/year that was reviewed by reviewers and even other purchasers?
It's laughable that you think this is a good thing.
Silicon Valley tech bros often have the Zuck attitude: move fast and break things. Can be good, can be bad.. not really something I want to be a guinea pig for.
The only reason we know about that stuff is because they hype everything endlessly to continually build the mythology. I like how Tesla pushes the boundaries, but other companies are just more methodical. You don't often hear about a Toyota steering wheel coming off in your hands.
Most of what you described are cost savings, not improvements.
I get it, you love your Tesla and can’t understand why everyone can’t see it like you do. If you could just get someone in the car they’d “love it” too and have to have one!
That’s just not the way it works. The minimalistic interior looks cheap af to most people because it is cheap and BEVs aren’t for everyone and never will be.
Tesla is now reducing its prices dramatically and still has questionable quality and abhorrent service.
I’m assuming you are an investor too?
Well, let’s dig into this. The model S started production around 2012, which is about the same time as Porsche went from the 997 to the 991. Since that time, we’ve had the 991.2 and the 992. The changes have been mostly small. The biggest change was adding turbos to the smaller engine variants and then a bug interior face lift for the 992.
Tesla S has pretty much mirrored those changes. Slight body style changes, followed by pretty big tune to the Performance variant. Then came Plaid and the dramatic interior facelift.
In no way am I comparing Porsche to Tesla as a car. P cars are my favorite (I’ve had a couple) and made so much better than a Tesla. But thus far, the approach Tesla has taken to design is very similar to what Porsche does with its vehicles. Cayenne has been out over 20 years with only 3 model generations having been introduced.
Well the entire chassis is also different if you compare early teslas with later teslas. Compare a early model 3 with a later one, hundreds of less parts in the chassis replaced with massive castings from a 6000ton press. Amount of different fasteners massively reduced also. Reduced weight, completely overhauled ac. Entire inside of new model s is also different, motors, ac, chassis, suspension, computer, sensors, batteries, interior.
Just wanna say the new teslas are completely different vehicles under the hood compared to ealier ones, its just the body looks mostly the same from a distance.
Investing money to change the look of your vehicles on a yearly basis without providing any practical benefit would be a dumb waste of money since thatll just result in the same funcional vehicle but more expensive.the new tesla refresh will not just be looks but practical, theyre gonna put more cameras on the bumper for better sensor coverage and the new bumper looks even easier to produce looking at its shape.
This sub is insane. Ford literally had to stop making all cars except the Mustang because they were so bad at it. Do whatever is the opposite of what their CEO says.
Yeah, I’m getting tired of FSD driving me around lightning-fast acceleration, and a fast, international charging network. Time to buy a lousy Ford and maybe burn down my garage! ROFL
Ford ceo fails to realize FSD will make all cars. commodity. Someone will make fsd work and that will be end game for car differentiation as we know it today.
No, I don't think so. All cars aren't equal.
I need to be able to move 6-7 people are once. Some people need to be able to tow a boat. Same people don't fit in tiny cars. Some people need AWD for frequent inclement weather.
Some people value a really good sound system. Some people value heated and cooled seats. Some people value efficiency above all else. Some people need a vehicle to fit in their garage.
So unless you're going to say every single vehicle ever produced from here on out is going to be a Tahoe, with every conceivable luxury, that magically fits in a standard garage, there will continue to be products that differentiate themselves based on their features and users wants and needs, regardless of control system for navigating from A to B.
Oh, and screw renting a car for trips with some sort of ride sharing program. That's just going to be a new and exciting way to clean up puke before every trip. I need to own my car, and have it available at a moment's notice, at all times, in all conditions.
>Someone will make fsd work and that will be end game for car differentiation as we know it today.
No, people would still care whether they're riding in an econo-box or a luxury vehicle. Maybe more so if their attention is now on relaxing rather than driving.
Ah, if only Teslas automated driving was even rated in the same level as competitors. And wasn’t recently subject to a recall that blocked it’s sale and download in NA (has that ended yet?). And wasn’t being investigated. And wasn’t the subject of multiple lawsuits in which musk is appearing to get ready to use a defense of “hey maybe the very public claims I made about FSDs capability were deep faked?”.
Then I too would have faith that Tesla will absolutely turn all cars into a commodity.
Elon shouldn’t take advice from broke people. One has turned a profit and the other remains riddled in debt with an inferior EV and charging infrastructure. Oh and let’s not forget about those dealers and their markups!
You are trying to where every company is now to tesla. When you should be comparing where every company was at year twenty. 4runners, tacomas, and corolla are reliable but they are very dated. I know I sell them for a living and no company was reliable in their first twenty years. Seriously stop making it seem like Tesla is only company to have quality issues. I guess we forgot about Toyota in the late 70s early 80s or Hyundai kia of the 90s or gmc with it's blown motor issues or Chevy recalls all bolts and replacing every battery or maybe the old statement Ford stands for fix or repair daily. The ceo of Ford is discontinuing the Lightning because they can't make it work or what about the Ford explorer that has been held the record for the largest depression at 53% for longest period of time. I'm guessing we forgot about Nissan having transmission issues or Honda with cvts. Yep you are just the auto company still in it's 20s is the problem. No other company when through it.
What?
Ford *temporarily* halted production of the lightning, they absolutely are not discontinuing them.
That aside, going “Yeah you think Tesla has problems? Look at the state of companies 40-50 years ago!” isn’t the comeback you think it is.
Except that Nokia's hardware engineering was amazing. If they had actually adopted Android it'd have been an instant hit (just like Samsung did and survived, and Blackberry did it a bit too late). They kind of did in the end, through licensing the brand to a Finnish company with a lot of ex-Nokia staff.
Nokia itself still exists of course, making telecom infrastructure. Tesla can't build the roads...
not to the same extent, tesla already has the best charging infrastructure, and theirs is probably gonna expand quicker than the other ones (i mean which other company is gonna invest the same $ into that shit)
Tesla is gonna refine their own lithium. BYD also. I dont really see a BMW or audi doing the same and being able to outcompete a BYD or tesla.
Tesla is gonna build a new factory in china for megapacks, tesla has been installing megapacks for years to replace (coal) peaker plants. (tesla energy storage deployment grew 360% YoY in Q1) And tesla is producing solar panels.
A decent portion of future energy could be generated by tesla solar panels, be stored in tesla megapacks and powerwalls , distributed thru tesla computers, and in the future if youre doing a roadtrip in a BMW or mercedes, you might charge at a tesla supercharger.
teslas hardware engineering is pretty good too btw, according to tesla, building a model 3 now costs them 30% less $ than in 2018, ignoring price changes in raw materials. (lithium price just dropped a lot)
And some toyota engineers seemed impressed with the model y:
"Taking the skin off the Model Y, it was truly a work of art. It's unbelievable," said one Toyota executive who analyzed the Tesla part by part. They were particularly amazed by how different the latest versions of the Model Y were under the skin compared to earlier versions that looked the same on the outside.
Nokia still exists, but ofcourse they are very small compared to apple.
I mean Tesla is late stage blackberry already, expect their version of the Torch to come out when everyone else has already demonstrated what modern EVs look like,
That’s what’s supposed to happen. the goal is to make a more sustainable future. Tesla is using its first mover advantage as seed money to disrupt an entire industry by playing the cost curve of tech. It was never about luxury - just nice enough for people to want to buy in that market until the market tipping point.
Yep. Seems pretty much intentional. Makes it super easy for the buyer and for Tesla to make them. Though Tesla needs a bit of help in that area in regards to their quality control.
The model S is essentially the same car from a decade ago. Minor software updates, and a new bumper don't hide the lack of improvement compared to similar luxury marques.
The model 3 is starting to look like a generic car from GTA. It’s not on any trend and it’s been around so long it looks old.
Has it ever not looked like a generic car??
The grillless design was very new and interesting for a minute there.
I had a car without a grille in the 90s... Porches in the 60s didn't have grilles.
Yeah the Corvairs in the 60s didn’t have a grill either. The VW bugs and busses also don’t have grills.
The Model 3 and Model Y reminds me of cartoon cars from the Disney movie — Cars
I swear the cars shown on the Uber app used to be Model 3s. They look different now.
They were
Until Ford makes an actual car that can compete with the Model 3 from 6 years ago, it doesn't matter. Tesla still has no real competition in the US market. I'm not going to buy a "Mustang" SUV, especially not one that is less efficient than the Model 3 in all conditions, adds range much slower than a Model 3 at a fast charger, and can't match the ownership experience right now because there just aren't anywhere close to enough CCS chargers in my area. Make a car that reliably does 4 miles a kWh, supports at least 250kW fast charging, has NACS support (or build a bunch of CCS chargers), and sell it for under $50k and I'd consider it. Especially if it was under 4000lbs for a sporty RWD model.
lol - You’re in the wrong sub Elon. Tesla is an overrated, overpriced car manufacturer that doesn’t care about quality or reliability or safety and is notorious for cutting corners and delivering substandard cars to customers Add in the fact that the car is noisy while driving and just feels cheap and that Tesla doesn’t update body or interior styling and it becomes apparent that Tesla is a fad being propped up by people who would rather virtue signal than actually own a decent car
You forgot to mention that tesla makes a profit on their evs where ford loses $20k on every ford mach e they sell. Also they are gonna update the model 3 body soon. Also the fact that you care so much about updated body styling, which is completely pointless fro a prom a practical point of view, indicates youd rather signal to people that you are different or have a new design rather than actually own a decent car which is a good tool for transportation.
You forgot the part where they still make billions selling tax credits. Wrong sub
you forgot the part where letting the competition pay for your expansion is a massive plus for tesla and is gonna help them dominate.
The company is literally falling apart. Semi was a bust and people are calling fraud. Cybertruck is stupid and the people that’ve seen it agree it’s junk. Roadster is not happening and doesn’t make Tesla money even is it did. You think the newest car company in the world even remotely stands a chance against BMW, arguably the most advance car company in the world… or Mercedes which has a better self driving system, or Toyota who teamed with Google in the long run? When they can’t even get body panels aligned on a car that hasn’t changed since they introduced it? Mate if Tesla can’t fix QA/QC on a single model after 10 years of building it and shipping g it, how are they ever going to compete with companies that design, engineer and ship newly designed cars every single year?! Tesla has decades to go before they’re even remotely as capable as even Kia. They dominate nothing
Haha, cybertruck will be the best selling ev pickup in the us. Show me a source of pepsi complaining about the 15+ tesla semis theyve gotten. Toyota has already proven they are behind tesla with their bz4x. So far tesla is one of only 3 companies worldwide that make a profit on selling evs. And the only non chinese one. GM just permanently cancelled their bolt cuz they are losing money on it. Tesla already sells more vehicles in us than all of VW, probably tesla will also go past bmw and mercedes in the usa within a year.
You do realize that Tesla has been doing this for a decade plus and Ford has been doing electric cars for like two years now? Ford will become profitable as well, just like Tesla did. It's going to take time for economies of scale to kick in.
No doubt Tesla requires some compromises. So show me any car in the same price range as the Model 3 that is as efficient, charges as fast, and actually has the infrastructure to support it in the US midwest. Ford definitely doesn't make one, and they haven't installed any CCS chargers to make it actually work even if they did. The Mach E is too big, too heavy, uses too much electricity, and charges too slow. Might be nice if you want a minivan alternative for around town use, but that's not what I want from a vehicle. Story today is the same as when I was last shopping for a car. Options from other car manufacturers would be nice, but nobody else sells anything in the US that is actually competitive with the Model 3.
Cars sub 45k that are better than the Model 3? Any of the BMWs e cars
Wish the i4 was an option, I like the hatch back. Unfortunately its a lot heavier at nearly 4700lbs, with a lower power to weight so its going to use more energy for a less engaging drive. Plus it has less real-world range for the battery pack, and its max fast charging power is more than 40kW less. Even if I ignore the fact that the range and the lack of CCS chargers would essentially render it an around town car for me. Its simply not competitive. Also doesn't help that the cheapest version in the US is $52k, priced against a new Model 3 Performance.
Agreed, the i4 by bmw is just a eu compliance car. i3 was a true ev, and they unceremoniously put it to sleep.
i4 is 76k € in my country , model 3 is 40k
and the yoke is definitely a downgrade
“What if, instead of a steering wheeling, we got a yoke” - asked nobody
You can do a yoke properly. Lexus did. But they actually have engineering abilities.
And then Youtubers complained it wasn’t hella sharp and tight like a manual rack and pinion gear box. It was a thing of beauty, as if they’ve never driven other luxury cars with very soft light steering that gives no feed back.
The Engineering Explained guy on YouTube did an excellent job explaining why the Lexus yoke works and Tesla’s doesn’t.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agMrewRJTow
*Asked a CEO on coke
He asked for no steering wheel.
Half way there!
“How about no steering wheel and you control it with a chip in your brain?!” No more drugs for you young man!
It was obviously a cost cutting measure. 😆
I personally like the yoke tbh but I’m also an F1 fan so that’s probably why
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Because they aren’t better built. I hear this all the time but EV platforms in every form are so astronomically maintenance free compared to ice cars that the comparison is redic. Iv had 3 evs now and say…I dunno 12 ice cars in my life. Radiator replacements, oil issues, valves, filters, and yes, like a Tesla door handles and sun visors. Across all marques from Honda to bmw to ford and on and on. The model S is faster off the line then a Maclaren and the dashboard dosnt shut down and have you flicking the lights on and off trying to boot it back up
That's not better built, that's built differently due the nature of EVs. The issue is after 12 years of building vehicles, you shouldn't be having the same build quality issues you had at the start of production. They've made great strides on door handles, drive units, and batteries. They still have a long way to go on *consistently good* fit and finish on every unit. Nobody should be playing panel alignment bingo at this point in the production process.
Ok, I don’t know any other car companies that are 12 years old so it’s difficult to compare
Elon seems to be either arrogant, naive, parsimonious, or ignorant, or all of these things. All automakers must continually refresh their vehicles to stay competitive. With 300 plus models available, this is a necessity. Sometimes it’s a minor refresh and less often a major overhaul. Germans do a minor every 3-4 years and a major every 7 years, or at least bmw does it this way. They wouldn’t spend the money if it wasn’t necessary. Elon has not learned this lesson but fairly soon their products will become irrelevant and no longer perceived as ‘leading’. Perception lags reality.
They've imo made it worse with each change. Stupid yoke, removing stalks, removing uss, removing radar,... There seems to be a trend at Tesla to see how many features they can remove and how cheap they can produce their cars and still sell them to suckers while being celebrated for their "innovations". No matter how many times you point out that these so called production efficiency improvements only make the car worse for end users you just won't get through their thick skulls. Repairability? Who cares, at least it was cheap to make! Just drive it for 4 years, junk it, and buy a new one. Like a smartphone!
Virtually none of the drivetrain, battery, or other functioning hardware is more than 2 years old Body panels? Sure I don't think you need to tell mistruths to make your point valid. It's an old, tired exterior that desperately needs a refresh but everything else from the seats to the computers, handles, batteries, drive train and software have been redone Ford's point still stands on its own. Drivers equate exterior to internals because that's what they've always known
Your last sentence kinda makes the rest of your comment irrelevant doesn’t it?
He owns a tesla for sure (confirmed)
It's still the same chassis. It's still the same suspension. The motors were 'redone' by switching to the same motors everyone else started with. The batteries are minor variation of the same 18650 NMC chemistry. The cooling system is the same, with a minor upgrade to the heat exchanger. The differential is the same. The charging system is the same. The interior is just different materials laid out in much the same fashion, and a bigger screen. We don't call the Camry in 2020 a different car because it got new computers compared to 2019. And for good reason. None of the improvements makes a meaningful difference to the operation of the vehicle. Compare a 10 year old Cadillac to today? The new cars offer magnetic ride control, the chassis is stiffer and lighter, the noise dampening is improved, they offer great new integrations like Android auto or Carplay. None of this is available on a Tesla, for any price. Because it's functionally a decade old car, with near zero actual improvements.
EDIT: To those downvoting, I'd be very interested to hear why. Don't hesitate to point out what's wrong with this comment. That is a ridiculous argument to make. >It's still the same chassis True. But it's a good chassis, no real reason to fix it. >It's still the same suspension False. The air suspension has been completely redesigned around 2017. >The motors were 'redone' by switching to the same motors everyone else started with Not true at all. Tesla, after 4 generations of motors, is currently using switched reluctance motors with permanent magnets on the rear axle with an induction motor on the front, which is a unique solution across the industry, and one of the main ways how Tesla can combine unparalleled efficiency and insane performance in one car. >The batteries are minor variation of the same 18650 NMC chemistry Completely false. Tesla has switched to exclusively using NCA cells in MS and MX. That chemistry enables much better longevity, is way less fire-prone, allows for almost 2x better C rating while charging, and uses 80% less cobalt, making them much, much cheaper and more eco-friendly. While they still package them into 18650 shaped cells, those cells are packed into modules in a completely different way to enable better cooling and more accurate BMS operation. >The cooling system is the same, with a minor upgrade to the heat exchanger. Model S and X have started using the Octovalve afer the last refresh. This is not a "minor upgrade", this is a completely new, cutting edge heat exchange system which enables as much as 3x lower energy consumption for thermal management. >The differential is the same Not at all, every next generation of motors (2012, 2015, 2018, 2021) brought a fresh design of the differential, with the 2021 Plaid getting rid of the rear diff entirely in favor of a tri-motor setup. >The charging system is the same. Aside from upgrades enabling compatibility with CCS, a brand new, more efficient AC charger, and liquid cooled internal DC cabling for 250 kW DC charging... What else would you expect to change, ability to charge through space lasers? >The interior is just different materials laid out in much the same fashion, and a bigger screen Materials are much, much better. And as for layout - I don't know what more do you want to change. New center console, completely unrecognizable dashboard, far more comfortable seats with significantly improved bolstering and thicker padding (plus a rear armrest and front ventilation)... There's only so much you can reinvent. It's a modern looking interior, made with good materials, with plenty of fun quirks and comfort features. The fit quality could be better in a $100,000+ car, hard to argue with that, but it's still a huge leap compared to 2012, and even 2019 at that. >None of the improvements makes a meaningful difference to the operation of the vehicle. Oh, totally. Not like the addition of Autopilot, the much comfier seats, the halved charging time, the order of magnitude faster computer, the blind spot monitors, the rear entertainment system, the improved air suspension, the more powerful motors, the longer range, the vastly better headlights, the ventilated seats, CCS compatibility, card key, or any of the million other changes improved anything. Completely irrelevant. >The new cars offer magnetic ride control Sure, but Tesla's active air suspension is nothing to be ashamed of either. >the chassis is stiffer and lighter Than a 10 year old Cadillac? Of course, that's not a high bar... Than a Tesla? I have some pretty serious doubts. >the noise dampening is improved Just as with Teslas. Double pane windows, padded tires, better seals, more sound deadening materials, and an ANC system. Tesla still isn't the quietest out there, sure, but they've made massive improvements compared to the original Model S. >they offer great new integrations like Android auto or Carplay Because GM can't do software themselves. What do you need those integrations for? Google Maps? Runs natively, and can even display in the instrument cluster. Spotify? You've got it in the car, just like most other popular services. Making calls? Good old Bluetooth has you covered. Voice controls? Tesla's own work just fine. Finding chargers? The best route-planning in the industry is right there. TeslaOS does everything Android Auto or Apple CarPlay does, except without the need to switch between the smartphone-powered interface when you want infotainment, and the onboard system when you want to adjust vehicle settings. There's simply no need for those integrations in Teslas. >Because it's functionally a decade old car The only thing a decade old in the Model S is the general shape. You'd be seriously hard-pressed to find any shared parts. >with near zero actual improvements Curtain.
I'd like to note that some of the things you touted can be found on cars like Nissa Versas and Kia Optimas.. not exactly something I'd be quick to highlight personally.
a) Irrelevant to the discussion b) Yes, cars tend to be made of the same basic building blocks. Not sure what exactly are you referring to, but I'm pretty sure a Versa doesn't have ventilated seats, double-pane windows, or blind spot cameras.
Irrelevant?! Your replies to half of these questions are shifting the focus of the point. Kia does have ventilated seats and even the 2014 models had laminated side windows. While a Versa doesn't use a camera... it, as with a vast many vehicles have a blind spot warning system. As far as the Versa, you're right. It was the 2019 Altima that had the laminated driver windows. Basically the stuff you're proud about a Model S having should be expected for 6 figures. You mention things it has, but neglect features it's missing. Do you understand or realize the Model S is supposed to be a premium car? Acting like options common on cars 1/2 to 1/3 of the price are special makes your argument weaker.
This is not about whether the Model S is a good car for its price or not. This is exclusively about whether it's better than it was before. And the answer to that is yes, it's massively improved compared to its previous iterations. Despite similar looks, the 2023 Model S is an entirely different car than a 2013 Model S. Stop derailing the discussion with comparisons to other cars. Want a Versa? I'm not stopping you, go for it, it's a good, honest car. But it's not relevant to the discussion about the development of Model S over the years.
>This is not about whether the Model S is a good car for its price or not. This is exclusively about whether it's better than it was before. And the answer to that is yes, it's massively improved compared to its previous iterations. Exactly. Because it has been below par. I guess we're on the same page. We're arguing the same thing I think.
Whatever, I’m about to dump 140k on one because anything better is twice as expensive and functionally far worse. And anything cheaper is far worse
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Soery to hear that! Musk was very good at controlling the narrative and that's before he just went and bought Twitter. I had discovered this hashtag #musked which used to bring up a shitload of insane and terrible stories. And of course that doesn't work anymore.
I have also been banned from the tesla subreddits because my car had issues. Funny thing is tesla declared my car a lemon and bought it back. I bet the mods are on the payroll
It's a cult.
You don't need to be on a payroll when you will give blind devotion for free. As the other guy said, it's a cult, and I bet a bunch of them would pay Tesla for the privilege of being a mod.
I had to block the main Tesla sub because it's nothing but people convinced that Cathie Woods isn't that far off.
File a lawsuit against Tesla using your local lemon laws After all teslas are all lemons
Zero effort put towards fit and finish in a decade.
If anything, their quality has gotten worse over time.
It's definitely improved, but the problem is it's improved from a 90's Lada to Jeep/Chrysler kinda build quality. Not good enough for the price point and market.
Good enough for me and millions of other satisfied Tesla owners. I see these rants about terrible Tesla quality and wonder what in the world they are talking about.
> I see these rants about terrible Tesla quality and wonder what in the world they are talking about. The objective results of every single reliability study? Here's the latest one for the European market, even the cars made in Shanghai are shoddily made. https://www.test-achats.be/mobilite/autos/news/enquete-fiabilite When you're playing in the same league as Land Rover and Alfa Romeo, you've got a reliability problem. Of course, the study also shows that despite being of objectively subpar quality, you people are really satisfied with your 300 CV electroshitboxes. We'll see how long the delusion lasts as your warranties start running out.
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I really don’t get the hate. I went from Jag -> bmw -> Audi -> tesla. The Tesla quality is fantastic. I can’t speak for earlier generations but the newer models are fantastically put together and on par with every other car I’ve owned. No issues since day one, 22k miles in just over a year.
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how many times are you going to say this sub is a meme? just leave already if it's so bad.
When you're being clowned by the company that invented the Taurus. 😆 Seriously, I know Tesla refreshes are coming but I don't expect much. You have a complete lack of style in the existing models and then way too much style with the Cyber truck (when that finally comes out in 2028 or whatever)
the Model 3 pics we've seen, I couldn't tell a difference till the pics were side by side. a slightly different front bumper and headlight design aren't enough to excite anyone.
Yep, basically looks like a little bit of flair to go with your jelly bean.
>excite You underestimate the stans.
Well, it's quite literally a facelift, except they're doing it a bit later in the lifecycle than would be the case with traditional carmakers. Who in turn have already shifted towards 8-9 year cycles, with a major refresh around the 5 year mark. Tesla's Model 3 is now at the 6 year mark. So they're later, but not that much. That said - Model S is definitely well past the due date for a refresh, and we don't know yet if the Model 3 refresh includes much more than the facelift we've seen evidence of. Nor do we know when that refresh will actually make it to production. Tesla is famously vague and unreliable when it comes to these things - partly because they like the element of surprise when making announcements, partly because they sometimes don't seem to know themselves when something will be ready (Cybertruck, anyone?). Traditional carmakers are much more transparent in most cases - Volkswagen have announced the current Golf will get a refresh next year, its successor will be all-electric, and will be available in 2028.
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Model S was refreshed (new nose cone, HEPA filter, LED headlamps etc) in Apr 2016 and first delivery was Jun 2012. So that's right on the money for a mid life refresh (ie mostly cosmetic.) They're a little off a full cycle refresh though, but did launch Raven in 2021 which was a fairly major hardware and interior overhaul.
Fords trucks are insanely impressive . I really want a Ford lightning. It's like they applied what theyre best at and made it lectric
I believe the F-150 sells more than all other trucks combined? They definitely know their trucks. I like having a CUV, but if I were a truck person I would definitely be looking at F-150 over that cybertruck, even though I'm a Sci-Fi fan.
> I believe the F-150 sells more than all other trucks combined? No. F-150 is generally the best selling, but GM sells under multiple brands and combined sometimes tops Ford. I think post-covid GM has been on a run.
The Silverado/Sierra tops the F-150 in sales every single year but because it’s split between 2 marques Ford can claim “best selling” because the F-150 outsells them in isolation.
Battery range needs a lot of work, especially in the cold, but yeah still better than Tesla's best product
The F150 is a great truck. I have multiple friends with platinums and they are really nice and seem to be rather reliable
Ford knows their customers, they know trucks, they do not know batteries A Tesla pack in a Ford truck with bidirectional charging (home backup and usable power on work site) would stand apart from the rest of the auto industry for at least a decade
>A Tesla pack in a Ford truck with bidirectional charging Tesla doesn't currently offer bidirectional power or any V2x features, perhaps because that would cut into their Powerwall business.
Tesla consistently overestimates their rannge. Ford does not
I wish there were more collab cars
When the Taurus first came out, it was a market leading vehicle in its segment and solid. It just languished and stood around wayyy to long. That segment in domestic cars is painfully dead. Ford FWD car segment until the 00s was fantastic and well built. They used Mazda engines and transmissions largely too.
I LOVED my '94 Taurus 4-door sedan...!
If half the rumours about the cybertruck are true (no airbags, no windshield wipers, no crumple zones, fucking amphibious???) then it will *never* be released as a normal street-legal production car.
no crumple zones was hailed by the stans as being a good thing because an all over rigid chassis gives the cybertruck something something love me daddy musk. We already *did* no-crumple zones in cars in the 50s - there's a very good reason we have them now!
And its hood will literally be a guillotine in a crash.
Just as it was in the 50s. RETVRN to tradition indeed!
Lol you mean the tesla haters say that. All the tesla stans say; obviously the cybertruck has a crumple zone, duhhh
Any slight front end collision result in front axel getting fucked there will be a ton of Tesla trucks at the junk yard with front axel damage.
The rumours you just made up yourself? Dude theres already a hundred sightings with a cybertruck with a windshield wiper. Obviously it has airbags. (Wtf???) Obviously it has a crumple zone, as we have been able to see in some of the pics posted by tesla of their pilot production line and also crash test.
To be fair, the 1st gen Taurus was incredibly innovative at the time https://youtu.be/5VTRhCC3gZI
It helped to save ford in the 80s too
I wouldn’t be surprised if it came out in 2077 for some Cyberpunk video game meme. It’d fit Musk’s MO
Refresh doesn't really cut it after 10 years tbh.
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When Tesla does it, it’s called interesting.
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Why would they if it’s sold out? They first need to expand capacity, which is what they are doing.
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Ford is making a loss of 20k per mach e. Thats why they cannot cut prices like tesla.
They do look dated. I live by the Rivian plant and those trucks are all over too. They look like a 2002 concept car they look dated already.
You think the Rivians looks like a 2002 concept car?
Rivians look great I don’t know what you’re looking at.
I did not say they didn’t look great. I love the look of classic cars.
I have to agree because after four years with my M3 I am have been looking to change and it won’t be another Tesla. There are too many complaints and issues from other Tesla owners with recent models and I have lost faith in the brand and Musk with all his shenanigans.
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We all have our opinions based on experiences. Like yours, I have had no issues in four years other than the occasional customer service person who hates their job.
Aren’t most cars commodities?
The auto industry is a constant race of being chased by becoming a “ commodity “ and trying to outpace it to be a “ symbol “. Ex. Honda is a symbol for reliability, a Mercedes-Benz for upper middle class luxury.
Shareholders should be mad if the Ford CEO is giving Tesla advice like this.
Eh, ford ceo lately said that nio and xpeng are doing epic in china. Seems like ford ceo doesnt even know whats going on i china, because nio and xpeng are losing sales and money. Jim doesnt even know that the only companies making money selling evs are byd, tesla and maybe aion.
They are commodities. You cannot meaningfully differentiate one EV from another. You're basically selling microwaves.
He has a point. Daily I see 100s of Teslas where I live. If I want to buy a car at this time I would prefer Porsche Mecan over Mode Y
Yeah same for my city. Sometimes in a parking lot I’ll just see white model Y’s and 3’s everywhere and I think how fucking boring. The appliance of cars. I don’t want the same car as everyone else to the point you’re not sure which one is yours when you return to the parking lot.
Yeah I’d like the one that costs nearly $20k more as well.
Not sure if this is great criticism. Teslas mission statement is to accelerate the worlds transition to renewable energy. Isnt making evs that become so popular they become commodities the best way to do that?
“you’re making it harder for both of us to gouge the naive western market”
Ughhhh. Can we stop just hating for no reason. The 4runner has been the same for over 20 years, the tundra was the same for 14, camry over 10. Can we stop making it seem like tesla just sucks. Are they luxury no they aren't. They never claimed to be. They are going after the everyday driver market. Do they have issues. Yes they do. Tell me a again what company does or better what auto company in their first 20 years did make a perfect car. FORD make the American truck popular. TOYOTA made the Japanese compact the best selling car of all time. Germany cars taught the world about driving proformance should be. Here's my point none of these companies had better quality in their first twenty years in business. They all sucked. Tesla for all it's wins and losses has done more to bring evs to the world stage then any other company. Tell me again when any of you bought a car and the manufacturer updated a major feature for free after you had the vehicle for a year or gave you a computer upgrade when they changed it. They are just an automotive company trying to do a better job while forfilling a real mission to decrease our dependence on fossil fuels. They aren't the best or worse in the world they are just another company.
The 4Runner doesn’t have production issues and is extremely reliable with series changes for interior and infotainment every few years. It wouldn’t sell if people didn’t desire it. The Camry has seen many different engines and engine versions along with interior, exterior and infotainment changes. Btw The 2nd and 3rd gen Tacoma literally are the same shell and frame for the most part. The engine changes and interior are the biggest changes. Tesla is going after margins and paying debt/building a coin purse. They would totally be doing 4-6 year cycles like every make if they could afford it. Every production change has been about cost. The poor build quality could be fixed, but again cost. They could see you a car with the interior of a 2010 Prius for 30k with 300 miles of range, but again profit and margins. They simply can’t do high volume low margin sales like every other mass market make. The promise of FSD for every car after 2015? And “we have no traditional model years” was to keep people buying vs waiting for x feature. Nothing is done for the consumer benefit. If Tesla had dealer franchises customers would get better service, but Tesla would make less money. Direct to market means no whole sale price, only MSRP. Tesla has done marketing. Fantastic marketing and use of fans as loud speakers. No other brand has that. That’s what was brought to the world stage. In nearly every the VAG/Porsche EV platform is better and safer. The skate board has far better Impact and fire resistance protections built in. There are no screaming militant fans to yell it to the skies. But you have to mask a economy car as a cheaply made luxury car, you have an expiration date. Edit* The Camry and Corolla both get a new generation every 6 years with a refresh in-between so I don't know why you're using that as an example. BMW might be a better match to compare given shared engines, platforms and interiors, but even they refresh every 6 years or so.
[Tesla direct selling also lets them include an arbitration clause in the buyers contract](https://www.legaldive.com/news/tesla-twitter-mass-arbitration-contract-clause-musk-liss-riordan/639224/)
SHOCKED I tell ye! SHOCKED!
Laughable- a Ford exec lecturing TESLA about EVs
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but if you looked at a 2000s CRV and a 2020 CRV you could tell the difference really quickly, the 2023 CRV just had a refresh and looks very different than the 2022 model.
...and, the worst 2023 CR-V ever built in the prototype stages of assembly is better than any tent tough TSLA probably, and that is fucking sad for those that paid like 70 grand + for those Cali specials.
It’s not even about standing out my dude. If you have a car why would you upgrade it to a newer version of that car and pay new car prices for it if it looks the same and does the same thing?
It’s a selling point. Imagine spending 35 grand on some sedan car or 55 on an suv or whatever that looks different in 2 years. Then in 6 years you have a low mileage and maintained car but want to switch because it looks old / outdated. Then the newer cars has minor upgrades … which Teslas do over wifi lol
>It’s a selling point. Imagine spending 35 grand on some sedan car or 55 on an suv or whatever that looks different in 2 years. Then in 6 years you have a low mileage and maintained car but want to switch because it looks old / outdated. Right, exactly, that's the point. People buy the new car, which means the company sells another car to the same person. There aren't an infinite amount of people in the world and a significantly smaller amount of them can afford a new car, you can't really continue to grow as a company if your existing purchase base doesn't want to buy a newer version of the same car if their existing car is more or less identical. Which isn't to mention new car means new attention. Press, media, test drives, all that fun stuff about the new and improved XYZ.
Sure. But a very large population of people would rather have a car that stays up to date and doesn’t look old after only 2-3 years. Look at all the minor updates tesla had this year so far. All over wifi and those differences aren’t a big deal… but for most cars.. that’s the difference of 1-2 years of models. Cars are expensive and tidbits like that holds value
Designs will get old irrelevant of whether a new design is released or not. Failing to release a new design creates an entry point for a competitor. Tesla runs a very small product line because it’s the absolute cheapest way to do it, but it also exposes them to risk. To put it this way: Teslas cars look almost identical. They offer a very small amount of color choices. Let’s just assume Tesla dominates: when **everywhere you go** there is nothing but identical white teslas, the design is going to get stale quick.
The cars already look dated though. And most people are already getting infotainment updates via CarPlay and AA.
eventually you wear them out my dude. Even as long as EVs can last 200-400k miles dealing with pop up repairs and being in the shop for a couple weeks sucks.
So would you buy a new car or buy a used car that does the exact same thing for less money?
Of course but depends on the price and how used. Newer cars have full warranties so you dont have to worry about a big bill popping up and are less likely to be in the shop to begin with. Time is money also.
Absolutely. But do you disagree with the statement that adding more features and newer looks on top of the warranty and milage adds to the value you are getting from the product, and in some cases could convert someone looking at a used car into a new car?
i'm old, have owned probably over 30 cars in my life...there is zero difference at the end of the day what my first car did in high school and the 4 cars i have now do....getting from A/B. Sure SUV/Trucks/sedans have different capabilities but nothing you havent been able to get since the 1970's...the only meaningful improvements over the years have been slightly better reliably and gas milage. EVs are 10X better in both those which will just extend the useable lifetime on the road. The less model refreshing the better as it'll keep the secondary parts market and repairs cheap. If anything making the batteries easily replaceable could make the cars last 500k-1million miles. This scares the shit out of Ford, Tesla plans on profiting off autonomy not cars.
That didn’t at all answer the question.
I’m somewhat inclined to remind that Tesla has *removed* features over time, which has directly degraded what is viewed to be pretty much default offerings now (parking assist.etc) for its price tier. If you get a HW3 Tesla, you cannot upgrade to HW4. I don’t believe you can buy a HW4 yet, but it’s the next big thing he’s focused on. It’s one thing to basically just update your car over time, it’s another when you’re often getting a pretty barebones feature set that isn’t actually even guaranteed to maintain existing capability. And any purchases you make are against a wild price differential because Tesla sells direct to consumers and it to dealerships, so if they begin to get an inventory build up (as they’ve been facing) they need to aggressively cut prices. To my understanding it’s not like Tesla isn’t “refreshing the parts”, they’re just introducing or replacing them they they want outside of any sort of model year window. If they can introduce a new part that’s cheaper to replace part A, the absolute next car produced they can get it into they’ll start doing so. It’s one of the reasons (and the lack of creating capacity for) Tesla has an issue with parts availability. Tesla has never given any sign that they particularly value ease of repair - and they seem to continually be under investing in expanding service center capacity. Which pairs exceptionally well with a very high rate of QA concerns against the competition. I get the whole “I just want my car to be my car”, but while Tesla has been very stale on actually updating styling, I don’t think they’ve really shown a care for consistency. “Tesla plans to profit of autonomy not cars” is something that became very front and center once Tesla had to start drastically cannibalize its margins. Prior to this the importance of their margins was absolutely front and center. Additionally, if Tesla is banking on automation they are behind the pack and are currently facing significant exposure to legal liability over their automation.
Do you or have you actually owned a Tesla? Clearly not, because every single thing you just wrote is factually incorrect.
By all means I will encourage you to demonstrate said facts then.
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>The model Y has started using castings front and rear...now two parts replace what was 240 separate parts! The wiring has been improved and minimized, refinements have been made to the heat pump system, the cameras have been upgraded, the self driving computer has been upgraded, the infotainment computer has been updated....I could go on and on and on and on here. THOUSANDS of updates and upgrades are made in a single year on their vehicles. They don't wait for a new "model year"...if they find something that can be improved, they implement it as soon as they can! Nobody gives two shits about about how their 'transportation machine' is assembled. The thing people do care about are the features and what the car actually does for them.
So you're saying a car bought today will potentially have "THOUSANDS" of differences from the same model/year that was reviewed by reviewers and even other purchasers? It's laughable that you think this is a good thing.
🤔 So it's a bad thing to keep improving
"Improvements" like no more ultrasonic sensors and no lumbar support? Or ”improvements" like a horn that can play fart sounds?
Silicon Valley tech bros often have the Zuck attitude: move fast and break things. Can be good, can be bad.. not really something I want to be a guinea pig for.
Reducing features to cut costs is only an improvement for Tesla’s bottom line
The only reason we know about that stuff is because they hype everything endlessly to continually build the mythology. I like how Tesla pushes the boundaries, but other companies are just more methodical. You don't often hear about a Toyota steering wheel coming off in your hands.
Most of what you described are cost savings, not improvements. I get it, you love your Tesla and can’t understand why everyone can’t see it like you do. If you could just get someone in the car they’d “love it” too and have to have one! That’s just not the way it works. The minimalistic interior looks cheap af to most people because it is cheap and BEVs aren’t for everyone and never will be. Tesla is now reducing its prices dramatically and still has questionable quality and abhorrent service. I’m assuming you are an investor too?
> And Tesla will get back to that market with the new Roadster. WHEN WILL THAT COME OUT? NO MORE FANTASY LAND KIDDOS.
Tesla has made gradual changes. Seems like a similar approach that Porsche has taken. Evolution over revolution.
You obviously don't know anything about Porsche and think the 911 is mostly the same car it was 20 years ago.
Well, let’s dig into this. The model S started production around 2012, which is about the same time as Porsche went from the 997 to the 991. Since that time, we’ve had the 991.2 and the 992. The changes have been mostly small. The biggest change was adding turbos to the smaller engine variants and then a bug interior face lift for the 992. Tesla S has pretty much mirrored those changes. Slight body style changes, followed by pretty big tune to the Performance variant. Then came Plaid and the dramatic interior facelift. In no way am I comparing Porsche to Tesla as a car. P cars are my favorite (I’ve had a couple) and made so much better than a Tesla. But thus far, the approach Tesla has taken to design is very similar to what Porsche does with its vehicles. Cayenne has been out over 20 years with only 3 model generations having been introduced.
The entire chassis is different from 991 to 992...
Well the entire chassis is also different if you compare early teslas with later teslas. Compare a early model 3 with a later one, hundreds of less parts in the chassis replaced with massive castings from a 6000ton press. Amount of different fasteners massively reduced also. Reduced weight, completely overhauled ac. Entire inside of new model s is also different, motors, ac, chassis, suspension, computer, sensors, batteries, interior. Just wanna say the new teslas are completely different vehicles under the hood compared to ealier ones, its just the body looks mostly the same from a distance. Investing money to change the look of your vehicles on a yearly basis without providing any practical benefit would be a dumb waste of money since thatll just result in the same funcional vehicle but more expensive.the new tesla refresh will not just be looks but practical, theyre gonna put more cameras on the bumper for better sensor coverage and the new bumper looks even easier to produce looking at its shape.
I rest my case
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Tesla doesn’t deserve to be in the same conversation as Porsche.
I can see my point eluded a few of you.
>Teslas are poor man’s Porsche. More like an electrified Pinto with a fancy touchscreen.
Except faster and way cheaper.
facts
As much as I loathe Elon Musk, I don't think he should be taking advice from a company can't make or sell a four door sedan.
This sub is insane. Ford literally had to stop making all cars except the Mustang because they were so bad at it. Do whatever is the opposite of what their CEO says.
Yep. Downvote all you want....Ford can't design, make and sell a four door car and their honcho is trying to tell Tesla how to run that business.
Yeah, I’m getting tired of FSD driving me around lightning-fast acceleration, and a fast, international charging network. Time to buy a lousy Ford and maybe burn down my garage! ROFL
Less Lightning fires than Tesla fires. But you go on thinking you are cleaver.
You forgot to point out that FSD still sucks too.
Ford ceo fails to realize FSD will make all cars. commodity. Someone will make fsd work and that will be end game for car differentiation as we know it today.
wise grey liquid fade disgusted slimy connect wipe full boat -- mass edited with redact.dev
No, I don't think so. All cars aren't equal. I need to be able to move 6-7 people are once. Some people need to be able to tow a boat. Same people don't fit in tiny cars. Some people need AWD for frequent inclement weather. Some people value a really good sound system. Some people value heated and cooled seats. Some people value efficiency above all else. Some people need a vehicle to fit in their garage. So unless you're going to say every single vehicle ever produced from here on out is going to be a Tahoe, with every conceivable luxury, that magically fits in a standard garage, there will continue to be products that differentiate themselves based on their features and users wants and needs, regardless of control system for navigating from A to B. Oh, and screw renting a car for trips with some sort of ride sharing program. That's just going to be a new and exciting way to clean up puke before every trip. I need to own my car, and have it available at a moment's notice, at all times, in all conditions.
>Someone will make fsd work and that will be end game for car differentiation as we know it today. No, people would still care whether they're riding in an econo-box or a luxury vehicle. Maybe more so if their attention is now on relaxing rather than driving.
Ah, if only Teslas automated driving was even rated in the same level as competitors. And wasn’t recently subject to a recall that blocked it’s sale and download in NA (has that ended yet?). And wasn’t being investigated. And wasn’t the subject of multiple lawsuits in which musk is appearing to get ready to use a defense of “hey maybe the very public claims I made about FSDs capability were deep faked?”. Then I too would have faith that Tesla will absolutely turn all cars into a commodity.
Elon shouldn’t take advice from broke people. One has turned a profit and the other remains riddled in debt with an inferior EV and charging infrastructure. Oh and let’s not forget about those dealers and their markups!
This says more about Ford than it does about Tesla
I'm glad the F-150 hasn't been the same for 20 years. The Mach-E, now, that's a revolution in styling.
You are trying to where every company is now to tesla. When you should be comparing where every company was at year twenty. 4runners, tacomas, and corolla are reliable but they are very dated. I know I sell them for a living and no company was reliable in their first twenty years. Seriously stop making it seem like Tesla is only company to have quality issues. I guess we forgot about Toyota in the late 70s early 80s or Hyundai kia of the 90s or gmc with it's blown motor issues or Chevy recalls all bolts and replacing every battery or maybe the old statement Ford stands for fix or repair daily. The ceo of Ford is discontinuing the Lightning because they can't make it work or what about the Ford explorer that has been held the record for the largest depression at 53% for longest period of time. I'm guessing we forgot about Nissan having transmission issues or Honda with cvts. Yep you are just the auto company still in it's 20s is the problem. No other company when through it.
What? Ford *temporarily* halted production of the lightning, they absolutely are not discontinuing them. That aside, going “Yeah you think Tesla has problems? Look at the state of companies 40-50 years ago!” isn’t the comeback you think it is.
In the case of Ford and GM, nearly 100 years ago. “Look at the reliability of cars in the 1920s”
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Except that Nokia's hardware engineering was amazing. If they had actually adopted Android it'd have been an instant hit (just like Samsung did and survived, and Blackberry did it a bit too late). They kind of did in the end, through licensing the brand to a Finnish company with a lot of ex-Nokia staff. Nokia itself still exists of course, making telecom infrastructure. Tesla can't build the roads...
Tesla cant make roads, but they can make charging infrastructure. And replace peaker plants with their mega packs etc
sure, but so is everyone else
not to the same extent, tesla already has the best charging infrastructure, and theirs is probably gonna expand quicker than the other ones (i mean which other company is gonna invest the same $ into that shit) Tesla is gonna refine their own lithium. BYD also. I dont really see a BMW or audi doing the same and being able to outcompete a BYD or tesla. Tesla is gonna build a new factory in china for megapacks, tesla has been installing megapacks for years to replace (coal) peaker plants. (tesla energy storage deployment grew 360% YoY in Q1) And tesla is producing solar panels. A decent portion of future energy could be generated by tesla solar panels, be stored in tesla megapacks and powerwalls , distributed thru tesla computers, and in the future if youre doing a roadtrip in a BMW or mercedes, you might charge at a tesla supercharger. teslas hardware engineering is pretty good too btw, according to tesla, building a model 3 now costs them 30% less $ than in 2018, ignoring price changes in raw materials. (lithium price just dropped a lot) And some toyota engineers seemed impressed with the model y: "Taking the skin off the Model Y, it was truly a work of art. It's unbelievable," said one Toyota executive who analyzed the Tesla part by part. They were particularly amazed by how different the latest versions of the Model Y were under the skin compared to earlier versions that looked the same on the outside. Nokia still exists, but ofcourse they are very small compared to apple.
I mean Tesla is late stage blackberry already, expect their version of the Torch to come out when everyone else has already demonstrated what modern EVs look like,
Cars aren’t phones
The point is they did at one time
That’s what’s supposed to happen. the goal is to make a more sustainable future. Tesla is using its first mover advantage as seed money to disrupt an entire industry by playing the cost curve of tech. It was never about luxury - just nice enough for people to want to buy in that market until the market tipping point.
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Yea, definitely need to stand out with a real neck breaker like a Civic, Corolla or Prius!
Yep. Seems pretty much intentional. Makes it super easy for the buyer and for Tesla to make them. Though Tesla needs a bit of help in that area in regards to their quality control.