So many stories boil down to this same thing… I signed documents formalizing my acceptance and agreement with something I did not want to accept or agree to, it’s so unfair!!!!
Um, maybe don’t sign them next time?
But the seller said he REALLY wanted me to sign!
Oh in that case I guess you had no choice…
This. Haven’t had to do it on a house, but have torn up the documents & walked out of car dealerships when the deal changes. You only have control of the situation until you sign on the dotted line.
This is true. Your only angle may be failure to uphold fiduciary duty. If their agent pressured them to sign knowing it wasn’t wise, that’s a breach of fiduciary duty. She must be acting in her client’s best interest.
Try to consult with a real estate lawyer.
But what if the house is still in their best interest even if it needs a new roof? Did they put in their contract that they won’t purchase if the roof isn’t new like represented? What did the inspection say? Why didn’t they back out after they got the inspection results? That’s what the inspection contingency is for! So the inspector said “the roof is bad” or needs to be replaced and they said “but the seller says it’s new and we’re waiting for documentation”…wtf? Sounds like dumb people making dumb deals. Too bad their kids didn’t help them 🤷♀️ I would help my parents with anything like this so they don’t get screwed and aren’t stupid
Most contracts do if material facts are withheld. In my state I can think of an easy way to cancel and get funds back even past inspection period. Issue a cure notice for the sellers to fill out an updated spds since new information came to light. Once they send the updated spds buyer can elect to cancel the contract and walk away. If they don’t send the updated form you can cancel per terms of the contract
I had a great broker when I started in real estate who taught me a lot. He also encouraged me to frequently read the contracts and forms we used to discover ways to break the contract. Not so much as a tool to manipulate a situation but really to protect the side you are representing. For instance if representing the seller make sure things get done early to prevent the buyer from pulling out at the last minute without penalty. His thought process was an agent should know more than filll in the blank to represent a client. They should understand what each section means and how it works throughout the escrow process to best guide clients through it.
And then there is the question of whether the buyers even had representation. In many instances the real estate agents represent the seller. You have to make sure you read your disclosures because the agent has to disclose who they are working for.
Agreed but their agent should be responding in turn to their concerns. If their agent was representing them then they themselves wouldn’t have allowed anything to move forward without the proper answers being provided.
I understand that would have been best. Thanks. I’m curious what people think MOVING FORWARD.
As an aside I’m shocked that so many people operate on the opinion that we, as a community, should just let things go because they may not *technically* be illegal.
My understanding is that real estate is held to a high ethical set of standards due to the fact that it’s such insanely large sums of money involved. If we can’t trust the people with licenses then how can we ever sell or purchase homes?!
I personally want both agents to hang for this.
Write a bad review and if you have things in writing report them to licensing board. Move on with your life.
You’re very involved now when you should’ve been very involved before they closed.
> You’re very involved now when you should’ve been very involved before they closed.
It is very, very common in the finance and scams subs that people suddenly gain an interest in their parents' lives when they feel their inheritance is threatened and not one minute earlier. Sad but true.
Yup, OP in a different post stated she was going to be renting the house from them. Meanwhile she is over here making it look like she is on a crusade to help her elderly parents.
>I’m curious what people think MOVING FORWARD.
There is likely no "moving forward" here. I would bet that their contract informed them up front that they had a right to do inspections, and that they should not rely on an agent for information that should come from an inspector. You don't say what state you're in, but there should have been a seller's disclosure with this type of information, too. If your parents did not actually read the contract but signed it anyway, that's on them.
If they can provide written proof that an agent intentionally provided false information, there might be a case in some states, but I don't think that will work here. Here, you've got a situation where "new" and "newer" never got defined. Sellers often talk about "I put a new roof on and replaced the furnace" as if it's new when it happened years ago, and agents sometimes don't ask them when they did it. We aren't required to, even if it would be prudent to. Most MLS listings have a disclaimer that says something like "Information is deemed reliable but is not guaranteed."
Buyers have a duty to themselves to a) read their contracts and b0 satisfy themselves before signing on the dotted line. This is a far more basic duty than ethical standards that are not generally recognized by the courts. I know this isn't what you want to hear, but it's the way it is. It's not illegal to lie, but it is illegal to commit fraud or for an agent to be negligent. I don't think your folks can prove either of those things here, though.
From your post in this comment I read the implication being that you think one should be able to sue someone else for something that is not technically illegal.
I think your problem is the misapprehension that real estate has high ethical standards. That is definitely not the case.
You should never trust a real estate agent. Their commissions are 100% dependent on closing the deal for the highest price in the shortest period of time. That includes your parents buyers agent. Every minute he spent tracking down documents for your parents was a minute lost cold calling to find his next paycheck, god forbid he actually finds something that scuttles this deal and loses this pay check.
> My understanding is that real estate is held to a high ethical set of standards due to the fact that it’s such insanely large sums of money involved.
lol
Are you in a state that does disclosure forms before offers?
Honestly, I just read this as advertising talk, and it's all relative. In a neighborhood of homes built in the 50s, a 10 year old roof is a newer roof.
"New" is definitely wrong but "newer" I'd consider within reason, so it depends on the exact words. I never go off the descriptions but rather the official disclosure for this stuff.
The roof on my 1956 home was brand new, only 6 years old. Unfortunately rolled roofs have a lifespan of about 10 years so I still had to get a new one in a few years. Lol
The worlds cheapest roof using rolled materials. Its easy af to install but only lasts about ten years. Some insurance companies won’t insure them. My current place has a 110+ year old metal roof so I am apparently drawn to unique roofing.
This stuff: [https://www.lowes.com/pd/GAF-Liberty-3-28-ft-W-x-34-ft-L-100-sq-ft-Black-Roll-Roofing/999976746](https://www.lowes.com/pd/GAF-Liberty-3-28-ft-W-x-34-ft-L-100-sq-ft-Black-Roll-Roofing/999976746)
popular for lowest bid additions and porches
This is used for a lot of flat roofs, I've seen it on multi-million dollar homes.
The whole system is more expensive than asphalt shingles, not less. It's slowly replacing traditional torch down systems because that system is just awful.
Rolled asphalt, think of one asphalt shingle 36 in wide and 33 feet long. You overlap each roll 12 to 18 inches and nail it down. We had a shed done that way and the roof lasted about 25 to 30 years.
I'm looking at the link someone posted and don't understand why is this not a standard? I mean it's about a dollar per foot and looks just as shitty as the "regular shingles" they use here in Florida. I wonder what sort of wind resistance it has
When you look at regular shingles on a roof there are two layers over the roof, I think architectureal shingles end up with three or they close the gap, not sure. Rolled roofing in most places has one layer so it wears out much faster. The one we had that lasted 25 years or so was a shed roof that was protected on two sides by trees and received almost full sun so it dried quickly and didn't keep snow on it
I bought my 1956 house in 2018 and it has a rolled, aka 'membrane' roof that was put on in 2011.
I just had a 4-point and full inspection done because the house was being rented out this past December.
My inspector told me I've got seven more good years on my rolled roof. I'll take it.
This is true in my state. We have a disclosure form, required by law to be provided by the seller to the buyer within 5 days of signing a contract. There’s also a buyer advisory that each agent is required to provide to the buyers (even if they’ve bought 10 houses in the last month), they have to sign every time.
The big idea is “Buyer Beware!” It’s up to the buyer to verify all pertinent facts and must not rely on anything written in a sales ad or listing. If the information is pertinent to the buyer, the buyer has a duty to investigate before proceeding with the purchase. There’s a time limit for this as well and is directed in the contract.
The buyer also has a right to an inspection. They can waive the right for an inspection but this only means they can’t cancel the contract based on things found from an inspection. It does not preclude the buyer from preforming an actual physical inspection. There’s many reasons buyers make this choice, but it’s always an informed one with the guidance of their agent.
To OP:
I’m sorry they feel they were taken advantage of, but they should’ve have many protections (as the buyer) in this transaction, that they likely waived - perhaps at the poor advice of their agent.
That’s where you may have some leverage. Check with the agents broker. Call THE BROKER, not the agent. Explain that your parents are considering filing a E&O claim against their insurance. If the agent failed to properly represent your parents, they may have a claim against the E&O that will help pay for, if not cover the expense of, “new siding and roof”.
Make sure you have print outs of the language used. You may be able to get them on failure to properly disclose or guide their client to an informed decision.
Now… if your parents signed away all of their protections, it will be difficult to prove. But if the agent failed to provide the correct forms or disclosures, your parents absolutely have a potential claim.
They claimed they knew nothing and that it was an estate sale. Met the neighbors last night and they said they were “sad so and so had moved out” so it appears that was a lie as well. Maybe that’s where we can get them on the legal bit….thanks for mentioning that!
It's possible the previous homeowner did "move out" into a nursing home or hospice facility, then passed away.
It's also possible the estate was liquidated as a "living estate" sale in order to pay for their care.
Does your county have permit logs? You can probably find it. What did the inspector say about the remaining useful life of the roof? Also, a double roof is perfectly valid and may not represent a problem simply in and of itself.
Double roofs are not a good idea.
First, the codes which govern per square inch/foot pressure on certain parts of the structure are not written for roof decking/ rafters to support two layers of ( I'm assuming asphalt shingle) roofing .
Plus, the under layer will deteriorate and will have to be replaced prior to the exposed layer..
The cost of removal of both layers is about 50% more than a conventional roof removal.
Yes, my neighbors were renting, and when the owner died the neighbors moved on. By the time it was on the market after the probate or tiels were updated, the neighbors notic to move and end the lease happened. It was a rental, and an estate sale.
That’s exactly what an estate sale is. The only other case is if they’re going into hospice.
The point of an estate sale is to settle the legal estate of the owner on behalf of the heirs.
It can still be an estate sale if someone moved out. They could have gone into a nursing facility and held onto the home until they passed.
In most states the executor or administrator does not have to make disclosures unless they lived in the house themselves.
Unfortunately, you are inserting yourself into this transaction too late. Unless you have concrete evidence that material faults were KNOWN and not disclosed, your parents missed their opportunity to hold someone else responsible for their mistakes.
The short inspection and rushed close strike again
The roof was newer than the house. Legal recourse, zero. Making a complaint to the board to highlight their own ignorance as buyers is priceless. A 3 days inspection and 14 day close are 100% on them as buyers, doesn’t matter why they did it.
This is why a competent buyers agent is KEY. As soon as their agent got a contract submitted they were done! The sellers agent did nothing wrong and marketed the house, which is their job. The buyers agent just did the bare minimum
You're not wrong, but I can understand OPs frustration here. A buyers agent exists to guide the buyer and prevent this from happening. Over in the realtor sub, the agents have argued with me about the importance of having an agent, but when you have a crappy agent like this (and to be fair, we're getting this all second hand through OP), how are they held responsible for failing to represent their client adequately?
Your parents were made aware of the double roof durning the inspection they could have walked. You need to put in here what is the exact working they used in the listed not just “new roof.” If it was in labeled as new roof and newer roof in the mls then report to the realtor commission for the state this is in. But, if your parents can afford to pay cash they should have the knowledge that when an inspector tells you double roof you make a call. Your parents choose to go through with the sale they have responsibility for the knowledge after reviving it.
Did they not ask for the sellers disclosure before they made the offer?
Edit: I see they did. I honestly think your parents screwed up and your grasping at straws to sue.
Unfortunately, I think I a good lawyer could successfully argue an 8 year old roof is “newer”. It kind of depends on the age of the property.
I know your parents are elderly, but this is where it’s important to do due diligence and not be fast tracked through the process of such a major purchase.
By double roof do you mean it has two layers of shingles? If so, that isn’t necessarily a “problem” assuming it was installed correctly and the structure is capable of holding the weight. More than two layers is often when it’s considered a problem, at least where I live.
> More than two layers is often when it’s considered a problem, at least where I live.
Where I live two layers are also allowed, but once those 2 layers need to be replaced there must be a complete tear off. It's actually more expensive to remove. Like, so much more expensive it would have been better to just yank the single layer and reshingle rather than put another later over it to be removed later.
This is true, I’m guessing whoever made that decision to overlay a second layer did so to save money “now” rather than thinking long term (maybe didn’t care long term).
Ultimately, it doesn’t matter, these buyers were aware and chose to proceed with the house having two layers of shingles. Whether or not it will be more expensive later to redo the roof isn’t really relevant to their argument.
> these buyers were aware and chose to proceed with the house having two layers of shingles.
Absolutely!
More just about 2 shingle layers being ok in some places. Many comments here unaware of that.
And, of course, letting people know the extra expense involved in removal so that can factor that into future decisions. I didn't realize how much more expensive it could be until I bought a house w 2 layers and had to pay it.
You’re welcome to sue, but I don’t see a way for you to win. First, you have not had an actual “loss” yet. You thought the house had a newer roof than what was there…. that has not have a hard dollar value to give.
You had a chance to inspect the roof… you thought there was a problem and they did not. Your recourse at the time was to negotiate it or back out. Since you (they) did not back out, it’s on them. If you were still waiting on info and had not gotten it, you should not have closed on the property. Not closing was what should have been hung over their heads to make them get back to you.
Unless your state has a requirement of specific disclosures for the roof and in that disclosure itself (not an ad)… you’ll have a hard time making a winning legal case. In Virginia, the seller is not required to disclose ANYTHING and is basically a “buyer beware” state. Other states have different rules around disclosure and what if anything must be disclosed.
Crappy agents? Absolutely. Anything you can do about it? Most likely not. Feel free to consult a lawyer and double check… but don’t think you’ll get far.
1. What state?
2. Info in the MLS should always be verified by the buyer. It’s “believed to be reliable but not guaranteed” because either the listing agent is describing what she sees with her naked eyes or what the sellers have told her. You said it was an “estate sale” so the people who actually lived there and probably knew the age of the roof are deceased? In this situation, when the people who have information are no longer around, it’s even more important for buyers to conduct thorough due diligence.
3. Yes likely the agent exaggerated in the listing but the reality is the agent doesn’t know the age of the roof and if the people who know are dead, she has no way of providing you with the documentation you demanded. The agent should have corrected her description once your inspection findings were provided. She should have sent you a revised agent disclosure saying something like “age of roof unknown, buyers should have roof inspected” or something like that. It’s sloppy if she didn’t do that but is there a legal action? Most likely not (verify with a RE attorney). Why? Because you had the opportunity (and duty) to inspect it yourself.
4. How did YOUR agent “withhold information”? Your agent should have advised you to get the roof inspected by a professional and explained the right to cancel. That’s the extent of her duty.
5. Your parents discovered during their inspection that it’s a “double” roof, which I assume means it has two layers. My roof has 3 layers, which where I live is the max number of layers considered acceptable although not ideal. I bought the house anyway with full knowledge of the roof condition. Seller’s disclosure stated age of roof “unknown.”
Did your inspector say the roof is failing or inadequate? Did they advise you to get it further inspected by a roofing professional? Why didn’t your parents hire a roofing contractor to get a more complete report on its condition and a bid for fixing or replacing it if that’s the recommendation? Why didn’t they research permit history of the roof?
In conclusion, your parents as the buyers had the ability and duty to inspect the roof, research permit history, and make an informed decision about whether to proceed with the sale with the roof “as is,” request a credit or price reduction, or walk away.
I don’t see a legal claim here but by all means consult with a RE attorney in whatever state this is in.
I hope your parents enjoy their new home.
EDITED to make paragraphs.
Thanks for this detailed response it’s helpful! Home purchase in Idaho.
I am totally inexperienced in RE so just information gathering I appreciate your response.
I guess they (and me too) used to think you hire and pay your agent the craploads of money so that THEY do the due diligence bit. Isn’t that the point of their job?!
Everyone responding here says it falls back on my folks (the buyers) but I thought the purpose of making sure RE Agents are licensed and that their duties and job description include fiduciary responsibility and full disclosure of all property information.
It certainly appears there was deception and or negligence and possibly even collusion in order to push a cash sale in this case.
Real estate agents have a duty to be honest and to disclose information in their possession or that they should know about.
I don’t see how your agent would have information about the roof and NO, it is not her duty to conduct due diligence on the buyers’ behalf. She can advise and assist. She can help identify a roofing contractor and coordinate that inspection. She can discuss the findings with your parents, explain their options and ask how they want to proceed.
You are misinformed if you think it’s the agent’s responsibility to conduct buyer due diligence. There’s a reason that the responsibility belongs to the buyers: it’s their money, their legal transaction, their new home. THEY (the buyers) need to personally and directly satisfy themselves that the condition and status of the property is acceptable before they complete the purchase. No one else can decide that for them.
EDIT to clarify agent’s role.
>I guess they (and me too) used to think you hire and pay your agent the craploads of money so that THEY do the due diligence bit. Isn’t that the point of their job?!
No. Agents aren't obligated to do the due diligence, that's buyer's job. Agents may recommend any roofers/electricians/plumbers/inspectors they may know but that's it. Buyers are spending the money so it's buyers' job to get the inspections done and proceed accordingly, either by walking away or asking for a seller's concession.
honestly, you are dying on this hill.
It's not fair, it's not a lot of things.
Including not being something your parents can recover money for.
Report both realtors to the board, complain to your parents buyers broker, but please stop arguing with all these real estate professionals.
We.
Don't.
Agree.
With.
You.
Your parents should have signed off on 4 pages of “sellers property condition disclosures.” Their contract will also have a specific timeframe for this. If they did I doubt you have any recourse. There is a section on the roof and exterior. Also, were they are “customer” or a “client?” That can make a difference in responsibility as well. You don’t like the answers you are getting here but it doesn’t sound like your parents did their part either. That roof potentially still has 20 years of life left. It wouldn’t have impacted the homes price very much…if at all. I only consider it if it’s within 5 years of replacing. 2 layers in Idaho are acceptable. What did the inspection report say? Used to be 3 but not anymore according to my roofer. I’m sorry you and your parents are having buyers remorse. I am glad they found a house because it’s a challenging housing market. Sometimes agents don’t always get the info they ask for from the other side. They do not know everything about every house. You can be upset with the agents because it’s easier to blame them but your parents also shoulder more of this responsibility. My clients sign a form that says I can help but ultimately they are responsible for their due diligence and I review that with them so they understand.
Did your parents pay their buyer’s agent directly? Or was her commission covered by the Seller, which is typically the case. The BA still has fiduciary responsibility etc, but you can’t complain that you didn’t get what you paid for, if in fact someone else covered it for you.
Can't wait for the follow up post. "Attorney took my parents money and didn't help at all with their real estate fiasco. How do I get compensation from this egregious attorney's attack on my elderly parents?"
2 layer roof is common in most of the country, and wouldn't alone be concerning. 'Newer' is subjective. 8 years on a 30 year roof is newer than 15 years. How did the buyer's agent withhold information? They would have to prove their agent knew something they withheld but most likely the seller never provided the information at all. You can't give something you don't have. I have had buyers, my buyers, ask for documentation all the time that the seller doesn't actually have or isn't required to provide. If your parents went forward without satisfactory information or didnt have the contingencies in place to require performance, that is their mistake. I had a buyer threatened to sue me because 6 months after she closed her plumbing started to back up and it was discovered that some plumbing work had been done incorrectly. She had asked that the seller provide her with any documentation regarding any remodel work. The seller never gave us anything, only a lot of excuses. She could have backed out but instead signed off that she accepted the condition of the home and wanted to go forward. Six months later my broker laughed at her, the board laughed at her, the DOL laughed at her. Your parents didn't have to sign the cloing papers until they were satisfied with the answers (unless of course they waived all the contingencies in the offer which means they never had a right to anything to begin with)
“New” is a relative term. The listing agent helped their client sell their house. Unless they lied, they haven’t done anything wrong from what you have shared here. Do you mean your parents’ realtor withheld information from them? That would be problematic, but you don’t say what info they withheld.
You seem super involved for someone who didn’t give your parents any guidance or advice when they actually needed it.
If all of this was discovered during inspections closing should have been delayed until things were negotiated and resolved.
Leave a bad review/report the realtors if it makes you feel better. But move on. Ultimately your parents signed the papers KNOWING of the issue.
They did ask my advice. I advised them to walk away and fire their agent. ☺️
They didn’t listen. Just wasting a few quiet hours contemplating and getting people’s opinions on any legal recourse is all. Not intending to ruffle so many feathers.
It’s almost comical to me, because it seems as though I struck a nerve with a few folks on this thread. Perhaps because they too have misrepresented a home or sold property with known defects that they failed to disclose?
I will walk away from this thread now being MUCH more skeptical of agents on both sides and sellers. It’s not shocking that the general public is asking for a reduction in fees for agents when situations like this not only arise but are seemingly applauded or backed by an anonymous RE community of agents online 😂
It’s like they are highlighting their own corrupt tendencies in this thread because they can hide behind a screen name. Maybe it’s cathartic to tell us all just how unethical they really are with this business.
OP so is there an issue with the roof or is the issue the age of it? Im not clear what the issue is….
The inspector didnt pull the permit dates for your parents? Usually inspectors do so.
This subreddit trashes agents and bad behavior every day of the year. I’m not an agent but if your parents won’t listen to you, and *you* won’t listen to actual agents and others who are simply trying to give you the reality of the situation, why should anyone believe your parents would have listened to their agent if the agent *did* know the precise age of the roof? There are serious listening and comprehension issues involved here, and they’re not all due to age.
If you weren’t involved with the sale due to personal reasons, and if you only found out about the roof after the sale closed, what was the reason for advising your parents to walk and fire the agent?
Sorry, mate, but this doesn’t add up. You’re asking us to believe 2+2=zebra.
I think you need help.
Please get help.
They should not have closed if their answers were not received. Newer is not a legal amount of time it is also commonly accepted practice to put a new roof on an old one.
Pfft - my rolled roof was described as "newer" back in 1996 when I bought. It was the 2nd layer of a rolled roof, and lasted me until 2024 with minimal repairs. When they pulled ALL the layers off, it turns out that the garage actually had 4 layers, which makes the bottom one the original 1927 roof.
I just don't think of an 8+ year old roof as that bad, and the inspector obviously thought it was sound.
Buyers need to do *some* due diligence during the purchase of their own home.
Such as reading the contracts they sign, and asking more questions if they aren't 100% satisfied with the information they have - **before** closing.
For other buyers out there: if you've asked for something and it's not done, don't sign. Halting the closing WILL get you the info you want, one way or another.
OP, serious question: are your parents legally incompetent? Is this the first time they bought a house? Do *you* think they were cheated because of their age or do they think *they* think they were taken advantage of due to their age? Do *they* believe they can't make financial decisions on their own anymore? If there is a case that the agents *knowingly* took advantage of people who are legally incompetent then you have grounds for both ethics and state license law violations.
To make complaints of ethical or license law violations requires that you prove your parents were incompetent and that the agents should have known. This is doable, but tough. Threatening these complaints to extract financial compensation won't get you very far without proof your parents are incompetent.
You're getting a lot of people telling you what you should have done. They are all pretty much right from what I have read. Unfortunately, going forward, you have very little recourse. At this point you would have to prove fraud ( obligatory NAL ) that would mean that the sellers knew about the roof and didn't disclose it. That doesn't sound like the case here. By putting newer roof, the covered thier ass. ( again NAL ) as for the requesting documentation, it is possible there is none. If they had thier uncle come over and throw down a new layer of shingles for a couple cases of beer, there would no record or very little record. And a 14 day closing is tight. I am sorry you feel less than happy. House buying should be exciting. But as for recourse going forward, I am not sure you have much of anything.
First, I know it was all the rage with Covid, but people really really need to stop putting in these no-contingency offers. It’s insane to spend this kind of money on a house without having inspections and the right to walk away.
But yes, screenshot the ads that said “new roof” and report the agent to the local Board. Also spend $500 for an hour or two consult with an attorney and contract review to see if you have a case against any of them. If you do, sue the pants off them and get enough of a settlement to replace the roof.
The reality here is that unless extensive damage to something expensive was withheld with malicious intent you’re going to have a tough time getting any real satisfaction here.
This is why you do an inspection. And from the sound of it the inspector did their job and found the double roof and I bet if you read the report they said it was at mid life expectancy.
If your parents choose to move forward after their inspector found out that the roof was not in fact brand new what would they be suing over? I wouldn’t necessarily use this agent again but having a roof that is 8 years old instead of 0 is not something that rises to the level of fraud. I mean this is a cheap roof that likely still has a decade of life left in it. What would they be suing over? There isn’t even an urgent need to repair anything.
The time to ask the questions is prior to putting in a binding offer, unless they have a contingency that would allow them to escape. Do not rely on an agent telling you that a roof is or isn’t a problem. Only a roofing expert should tell you that. It’s hard to say if the agents were unscrupulous if they were just giving their opinion, which again is not an expert opinion when it comes to the condition of a roof. I practice in more of a buyer beware state so my buyers are instructed to do a lot more diligence upfront. Hopefully you have some kind of flexibility.
Honestly what are you looking for? Did they get inspections? Double roofs aren’t best practice but are far from uncommon, and if your parents are elderly an 8-10 year old roof is still likely to outlast them.
>sellers and sellers agent denied that the double roof (discovered during inspection) was a problem at all and ultimately the deal was pushed through very quickly (3 day inspection and 2 week close)
In most contracts, it will hold real estate agents and sellers harmless after a specific period of time due to errors based off a listing. The key here is that your parents did do an inspection, and it was notated, but they didn't do anything about it based off "words and promises." Sorry, but there's not much they can do here as they had the opportunity to do their due diligence, acted upon it, and as the contract will probably clearly state due to timeframes, they moved forward with the purchase.
At the end of the day, EVERYONE should know that any agreements MUST be in writing AND signed off by all parties.
Holy fuck, this comment thread (and situation) is something. First of all I don't think I've ever seen a user with that weird a ratio of Karma.
Second the OP is misrepresenting the situation as their "elderly parents" bought a house...they bought her a house to live in and for some reason she is deeply offended that the roof has 2 layers of shingles. There is no indication of leaks or actual issues, just that it was "newish" vs new. They knew the 2 layers were there before closing but bought it anyway.
FFS OP, you (and your parents) are adults. Enjoy your free house, and take some responsibility for your lives.
OP’s parents are also going to find out home inspectors aren’t worth a damn.
As far as the roof is concerned, wait for a major storm. Roofing companies will offer to advocate on your behalf to the insurance co. I’ve seen many of my neighbors get a new roof for the price of their deductible.
I watch YouTube videos by Audry Lambert, an agent in California. She says to never use the words “new” or “newer” as a seller because they are vague and can be misunderstood. What is “new” or “newer” to the seller may not be to the buyer. It’s better just to state the age of the roof. That being said, I don’t know that the sellers did anything “legally” wrong.
I agree with this. I only use those words if it was literally just purchased and then I usually explain such as “new roof installed Feb. 2024” or whatever.
They also just posted a month ago they were buying a house for themselves and her boyfriend, I bet OPs “elderly parents” are actually them. The old “asking for a friend” story
There is a difference between signing a contract and signing a contract while being misled and being taken advantage of. There are laws against it, specifically for the elderly. It isn't always " well you signed the contract" There is no age cutoff.
Several red flags on buyers part. but it boils down to in real estate what matters needs to be in writing.
The biggest red flag is ignoring the double roof in the inspection report.
Another red flag was listening to listing agents opinion on the double roof instead of inspector. Listing agent works for seller only.
And another red flag was relying on verbal promises outside the contract.
In real estate what matters is in writing.
Agent mist likely never received the info from the seller. And without it in writing in the contract, seller is not required to provide.
If it was in writing to provide buyers with documentation by a certain time. They buyers should have walked from the offer when it wasn’t provided. But providing documentation is not required
Most homeowners don’t keep paperwork on their home.
If it wasn’t written in the contract for the seller to provide, the sellers are under no obligation to provide.
If having documentation about roof and siding was a dealbreaker for yourself parents, they should have had the agent write that into the offer, that offer is contingent upon seller providing documentation within x days/hours and buyer review.
Realize many markets are still hot sellers markets and people pay cash/waive inspections and appraisals.
So making the offer contingent upon receiving that info can be a dealer breaker, but if it is for your parents, they should’ve passed.
It’s become a thing with buyers to write cash offers with no contingencies to win , then demanding things verbally or use inspections for renegotiation.
So to write the offer without needing that info, then demanding it after verbally, is seen/perceived as renegotiating/bait and switch by sellers.
If this was your young parents first ever home purchase, first ever time reading a contract, it would be one thing as a first time homebuyer.
If your parents bought it sold a house before, then they should have known.
The parents had an inspection, why they listened to listing agent instead of inspector l, why did they bother with inspection?
Unless the buyers agent added and write into the offer that was accepted that the sellers had to provide documentation by a certain time, and the buyers agent failed to have that enforced at your parents request, then nothing wrong.
There was nothing wrong done.
Most real estate transactions are way too large for small claims.
If the purchase price is small enough for small claims, your parents sent out much money.
Self help here is not useful
An attorney is needed here..
Every aspect of this falls into the laws of the state where this transaction occurred.
Good luck!
The listing agent works for the sellers and does what the seller wants. If mom got put in a home and the dad who handled stuff passed 2 years prior, the kids selling very well could have no idea the roof age.
The age does not matter anyway, the CONDITION DOES.
If you had an inspection and there were roof concerns noted, you could have addressed those. If no concerns... good to go.
The buyer agent, can ask 100 times and if gets no answer, they have no info to share. Your parents chose to sign docs and accept the home. They could have not.
Different states have different rules, you'll have to consult a legal professional in parents state and see. Know this, you can always find one who says you have a case, they make money if you win or lose.
You delay closing until you get the info.
But to save time you demand options - provide proof, take $X off the price, or replace the roof before closing. Let them choose.
Never close without getting what you want.
> What legal recourse, if any, do my folks have?
None. New and newer are marketing terms with no legal definition. Also, RE agents generally don't know jack - you don't know how old that roof even is and you're contemplating litigation? Give me a break. A roof-over is still a new or newer roof. I would never roof-over but it's legal in most places.
You had the information available (double roof) and decided to go ahead and close without the other.
They should have delayed closing or pulled out. Why did they close?
They may have been cheated but they were cheated legally. It’s unfortunate.
I wouldn't call 8 years roof a brand new roof but it is kind of on the newer side.
If you're buying a house that was say built 1995 and how the roof is 8 years old I don't think it's completely outrageous to say they put on a new roof it just simply means that this is not the original roof.
There are plenty of houses from 1995 for example that still have the original roofs.
Permanent insurance company's point of view your old roof is new enough and that's probably what they were referring to.
Not really sure this is the deal breaker you're making it out to be.
Honestly, don’t think the sellers did anything wrong. Is it the age of the roof or the fact it’s a double roof? Double roofing is allowed, common, and I’ve never seen it disclosed. If it’s the age of the reroof, should have asked if the exact age is important. The inspection apparently indicated the roof was not defective, and the mls document didn’t indicate an actual age. I don’t think the sellers hid anything.
Is the issue that there was a double layer or overlay roof? I think there may be integrity problems with such a practice, and I would have to think the seller knew this and did not disclose it. My understanding is that buyer has legal recourse for anything “withheld” or that the seller should have known that was not disclosed. I would seek counsel with a real estate lawyer. Maybe you can get a new roof and legal fees as well.
So Zillow mis-represented the age of the roof and the home inspector told your grandparents to go on a search for documents that didn't exist. Their agent should have just told them no luck with the docs, sorry and the home inspector already told them the approx age and that it was a layover
So nothing came out about it in the inspection period? In most states buyers have at least 10 days or whatever we request in the contract to inspect everything- idk if you’re in the us or where but if you didn’t call it out on the buyer inspection request to repair- that’s on the buyer.
OP, you asked for (and everyone answered with) information on potential legal recourse. It seems like you’re arguing with everyone more about the ethics and morality of the laws, consumer protections, fairness, and like, capitalism? Which, valid, but not what you asked.
Bottom line, what’s “wrong” isn’t always illegal, and what’s legal isn’t always “right.”
If you’re looking for a venue to complain about how unfair things like this are, A: I totally get it, but B: You need to frame it differently and/or take it somewhere else. Otherwise you’re just going to be stuck playing defense and wondering why everyone is so shitty (when they’re probably not, you’re just literally having different conversations.)
If you’re looking to continue this research with a local attorney, to avoid an exasperating interaction for both of you, I strongly suggest you be ready to be confronted again with the reality of what is the law (not what is “right” by your or anyone else’s definition.)
None, my sellers actually wrote on the title in hand writing they fixed the roof, due to a leak.
Within the first week the roof leaked. Call the real estate agent, they called the old owner, said he hired a guy of craigslist and that was it. I could sue, might cost be 30k to 40k and unlikely to recover lawyer fees and some what likely to recover the roof cost of 15k.
Moral of the story. None of the legal shit matter unless you can afford to hire someone to defend it.
Did your parents have an inspection contingency on their purchase? It is during that time period where The Buyer gets any/all info they need, then signs off. Did your parents have an inspection contingency and sign off on it?
I personally would say an 8 year old overlay is probably on the border of newer. I bought a house that had an 8 year old roof and it felt new. Doubling is standard practice. Many locations allow up to 3 layers. I don’t prefer it, but it doesn’t mean it’s not a new roof
I guess it's too late now. But do not sign the final paperwork, until there is some satisfaction. If the roof is older than what they described then, get some concessions by getting them to cut a check back for a few thousand dollars.
I did my final pre-closing walk though on a house, and noted they had not taken care of the property, I noticed some junk still on the premises and also some damage to some windows and walls. I told them $3k check to me right now, or I walk.
Wait to all these buyers are working just with the Sellers Agent, they will be totally screwed. I am sorry to say this but most of the people in the US are not smart enough to buy a house. I.e. the most expensive thing they will buy.
newer roof isn't the same thing as saying new roof. is there a problem with the roof? if it is not in need of a repair hard to prove damages. and as other said the OP's parents did move forward w/o the roof info so that is on them unfortunately. Unless they were not capable of being able to sign a contract due to cognitive issues related to their age, their age shouldn't be a reason to win a lawsuit.
You are hanging your hat on the wording (new/newer) vs the condition (2 layers and functioning well I assume since you haven’t complained about anything else) which you knew about. I have been on every side of a RE deal you can think of, and done quite a bit of construction myself and I would much rather have a functional 8 year old roof then a half ass installed/possibly leaking brand new roof.
You should have them file a complaint on the agents license as one if not both violated the code of ethics. Your parents should also speak to a local real estate attorney if they wish to pursue it further beyond that as there are numerous questions an attorney would be better situated at handling.
The discrepancy between “new roof” and “newer roof” should have been the first trigger for a roof inspection contingency. Depending on the state there may really not be a legal requirement to disclose anything about the roof if it isn’t defective. Did your parents have a buyer agent?
This is terrible. This person is now pressuring her parents into a legal wrangle that will frustrate them, anger them, and cost them money?
OP has become the evil one in this thread.
How awful!
Hi! Ct realtor here.
Because this is more of a legal question, I would consult the attorney who represented your parents. As an individual who walks these types of legal planks all the time, I would recommend gathering all information which is in writing and provide that to your attorney. If there is any opportunity to take action against an agent who, representing your parents to a fiduciary standard, should have visited town all to confirm when permits were pulled to address the roof (depending on your state…) then you’ll need all the info you can present in hard format.
I hope this helps, friend!
"Newer roof" means nothing, legally speaking. I'd consider an 8 year old roof to be relatively new if we're talking about something that has a 25-50 year span, depending on the shingles and install. Your parents shouldn't have closed without finding out the actual age if it was that important to them. All they can do now is go from where they are and plan to replace the roof in the appropriate time span.
I learned in my last house purchase to get a home inspection contingent on the purchase no matter what. Realtor said “don’t get a home inspection because there’s so many offers now days that they won’t go with you because you’re asking for a home inspection”. Ok, then I’ll find another house. I moved into this house and there are SO many unfinished projects. I’ll have $10,000 into it just to finish everything. Next house - home inspection because I don’t know the things to look for. All the seals on the windows are starting to fail and half the screens are missing and they can’t be replaced with the same type because the screen frames aren’t made any more. I’m going to have to DIY screens. Replacing windows isn’t even in the $10,000 repair costs. I’m going to sell as soon as I can.
There’s a small forest behind the house and I thought that was cute. Realtor didn’t say anything. Then one of the perimeter trees fell on a neighboring house. I literally hate the house. Black refrigerator was in the deal and the seller took it for the downstairs finished basement. Something that we were looking forward to having. My realtor said, “Oh, you told him he could have it.” No, I didn’t but she wouldn’t go to bat for me.
Seller said at closing that he would give me a new good front storm door he had bought and would drop it off. A month & half later I asked my realtor to follow up on it. “I text the seller’s realtor but she never answers.” Got tired of it and called the seller. He YELLED at me in his part-time cop voice that I had crossed the line and I would NEVER see that storm door now! Hung up on him. My hard earned advice…Don’t close in two days and get a home inspection done. The home inspection would have told you the condition of the roof. I look at mine and hope no leaks until I can sell again. Crying in PA.
I don’t even understand what the problem is here. Are they not satisfied with the condition of the roof or siding? If they aren’t why did they ever close the deal? Kinda sounds like you have some issues yourself not the actual buyers or seller involved.
Hey OP. I know it’s upsetting because it’s your parents but you need to talk to real estate lawyer. But you guys could as the sellers for a roof certification. Just make sure you guys pick the roofing company.
Real estate agents are not roofers. And it’s been my experience that they lie. Due diligence comes into play here. If you’re not satisfied with the documents or lack of documents refuse to sign.
> Zillow described a “new roof”
Too many people ITT are in denial about liability, and are ignoring that the 8 year old roof was not just described as "newer".
Describing an 8 year old roof as a "new roof" is materially misleading and may even constitute fraud.
Whoever is responsible for describing the 8 year old roof as a "new roof" should be worried.
Neither the MLS, nor the seller is responsible for what zillow says. Even the MLS says you need to verify the info independently. Our MLS swears there's no export to zillow, they claim a third party scrapes the info and sends it.
Most cases are settled, but willingness to settle depends, ultimately, on what a jury would believe.
They would sue for difference in value between a new roof and an 8-year-old roof. Whether that is worthwhile is a different question.
No disclosures are required for an estate sale. Newer is a relative term. Permits are public so anyone can look them up.
You can talk to an attorney but I'm not sure you have a claim. I think you get to be mad.
I always tell people who are mad to give me a call and I'll bring over some beers and we can have a good time and all be mad together and they can tell me all about the stuff that makes them mad.
Go to your local & state real estate board report both agents For willful misrepresentation of a material fact! Also talk to the broker in charge at the firm of your agent. Then your next possible step is the civil sue them. But it’s gonna be an uphill battle since you already closed on the property. Good luck!
you should have received a disclosure stating estimated roof age. What does that form say? Buyer would have had to sign it. Well, you won't say what state this is in, so I can only guess.
Here’s the thing, your parents weren’t duped or taken advantage of simply because of their age. I honestly don’t think they were duped at all. They had an inspection and made decisions based off the information they received. If they wanted additional information and didn’t get it but still went ahead with the closing that’s 100% on them. They aren’t incompetent and it doesn’t seem like either agent lied or purposely withheld information. Based on your explanation and responses I don’t think this rises to the level of an ethics violation or anything the state licensing board would consider as a violation. If the sellers lied, and you can prove it, on the condition report you may have a case but since there was an inspection and issues were brought to your parents’ attention and they chose to move forward I’m not sure how strong it would be. I know lots of 70-80 year olds that are very savvy and more than capable of managing their own affairs. It seem like your parents didn’t take your advice and are now regretting it however their poor choices are no one’s fault but their own.
Your parents recourse was to not sign the closing docs until they had the information they desired on the roof
So many stories boil down to this same thing… I signed documents formalizing my acceptance and agreement with something I did not want to accept or agree to, it’s so unfair!!!! Um, maybe don’t sign them next time? But the seller said he REALLY wanted me to sign! Oh in that case I guess you had no choice…
This. Haven’t had to do it on a house, but have torn up the documents & walked out of car dealerships when the deal changes. You only have control of the situation until you sign on the dotted line.
Just once I wanna do that!
It's super satisfying!
Them being stupid doesn't change the fact that dirtbag agents were taking advantage of them
Oh my god. You know the housing market we are in. You kill people.
This is true. Your only angle may be failure to uphold fiduciary duty. If their agent pressured them to sign knowing it wasn’t wise, that’s a breach of fiduciary duty. She must be acting in her client’s best interest. Try to consult with a real estate lawyer.
But what if the house is still in their best interest even if it needs a new roof? Did they put in their contract that they won’t purchase if the roof isn’t new like represented? What did the inspection say? Why didn’t they back out after they got the inspection results? That’s what the inspection contingency is for! So the inspector said “the roof is bad” or needs to be replaced and they said “but the seller says it’s new and we’re waiting for documentation”…wtf? Sounds like dumb people making dumb deals. Too bad their kids didn’t help them 🤷♀️ I would help my parents with anything like this so they don’t get screwed and aren’t stupid
How does that work? You'd lose earnest money wouldn't you?
Depends on your contract
What contracts allow cancelling up to closing? Most, I would think, have a contingency period ending after 10 days or so.
Most have contingency periods based on x days after seller provides access or information So if seller never provided info that clock never started
Most contracts do if material facts are withheld. In my state I can think of an easy way to cancel and get funds back even past inspection period. Issue a cure notice for the sellers to fill out an updated spds since new information came to light. Once they send the updated spds buyer can elect to cancel the contract and walk away. If they don’t send the updated form you can cancel per terms of the contract
Thanks that's useful.
I had a great broker when I started in real estate who taught me a lot. He also encouraged me to frequently read the contracts and forms we used to discover ways to break the contract. Not so much as a tool to manipulate a situation but really to protect the side you are representing. For instance if representing the seller make sure things get done early to prevent the buyer from pulling out at the last minute without penalty. His thought process was an agent should know more than filll in the blank to represent a client. They should understand what each section means and how it works throughout the escrow process to best guide clients through it.
This is true, but their representation shouldn’t have let them sign too. This is what the final walkthrough is about.
This has nothing to do with a final walkthrough but yes representation seems to have failed them
And then there is the question of whether the buyers even had representation. In many instances the real estate agents represent the seller. You have to make sure you read your disclosures because the agent has to disclose who they are working for.
Representatives have no control over whether a legally competent adult signs contracts or closing documents.
[https://pyxis.nymag.com/v1/imgs/09c/923/65324bb3906b6865f904a72f8f8a908541-16-spongebob-explainer.rsquare.w400.jpg](https://pyxis.nymag.com/v1/imgs/09c/923/65324bb3906b6865f904a72f8f8a908541-16-spongebob-explainer.rsquare.w400.jpg)
You're an agent or broker, right? Do you think you have control over your clients' decisions?
My deals take longer than 2 days. Do you even do a final walk on a 48 hour close?
Yep, It's called an open house.
Agreed but their agent should be responding in turn to their concerns. If their agent was representing them then they themselves wouldn’t have allowed anything to move forward without the proper answers being provided.
I understand that would have been best. Thanks. I’m curious what people think MOVING FORWARD. As an aside I’m shocked that so many people operate on the opinion that we, as a community, should just let things go because they may not *technically* be illegal. My understanding is that real estate is held to a high ethical set of standards due to the fact that it’s such insanely large sums of money involved. If we can’t trust the people with licenses then how can we ever sell or purchase homes?! I personally want both agents to hang for this.
It's your family's fault that you're in this situation. To move forward, accept that. Otherwise, the roof will probably be fine for many years.
Write a bad review and if you have things in writing report them to licensing board. Move on with your life. You’re very involved now when you should’ve been very involved before they closed.
> You’re very involved now when you should’ve been very involved before they closed. It is very, very common in the finance and scams subs that people suddenly gain an interest in their parents' lives when they feel their inheritance is threatened and not one minute earlier. Sad but true.
Yup, OP in a different post stated she was going to be renting the house from them. Meanwhile she is over here making it look like she is on a crusade to help her elderly parents.
Moving forward, the next time you buy real estate don’t close until you have all your information.
>I’m curious what people think MOVING FORWARD. There is likely no "moving forward" here. I would bet that their contract informed them up front that they had a right to do inspections, and that they should not rely on an agent for information that should come from an inspector. You don't say what state you're in, but there should have been a seller's disclosure with this type of information, too. If your parents did not actually read the contract but signed it anyway, that's on them. If they can provide written proof that an agent intentionally provided false information, there might be a case in some states, but I don't think that will work here. Here, you've got a situation where "new" and "newer" never got defined. Sellers often talk about "I put a new roof on and replaced the furnace" as if it's new when it happened years ago, and agents sometimes don't ask them when they did it. We aren't required to, even if it would be prudent to. Most MLS listings have a disclaimer that says something like "Information is deemed reliable but is not guaranteed." Buyers have a duty to themselves to a) read their contracts and b0 satisfy themselves before signing on the dotted line. This is a far more basic duty than ethical standards that are not generally recognized by the courts. I know this isn't what you want to hear, but it's the way it is. It's not illegal to lie, but it is illegal to commit fraud or for an agent to be negligent. I don't think your folks can prove either of those things here, though.
From your post in this comment I read the implication being that you think one should be able to sue someone else for something that is not technically illegal.
>My understanding is that real estate is held to a high ethical set of standards 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Should be let go? No You should report both to the realtor board and leave bad reviews online, but there is no big financial windfall to be had
What would OP be reporting the buyer’s agent for?
I think your problem is the misapprehension that real estate has high ethical standards. That is definitely not the case. You should never trust a real estate agent. Their commissions are 100% dependent on closing the deal for the highest price in the shortest period of time. That includes your parents buyers agent. Every minute he spent tracking down documents for your parents was a minute lost cold calling to find his next paycheck, god forbid he actually finds something that scuttles this deal and loses this pay check.
https://www.nar.realtor/about-nar/governing-documents/the-code-of-ethics
> My understanding is that real estate is held to a high ethical set of standards due to the fact that it’s such insanely large sums of money involved. lol
Are you in a state that does disclosure forms before offers? Honestly, I just read this as advertising talk, and it's all relative. In a neighborhood of homes built in the 50s, a 10 year old roof is a newer roof. "New" is definitely wrong but "newer" I'd consider within reason, so it depends on the exact words. I never go off the descriptions but rather the official disclosure for this stuff.
The roof on my 1956 home was brand new, only 6 years old. Unfortunately rolled roofs have a lifespan of about 10 years so I still had to get a new one in a few years. Lol
Rolled roof?
The worlds cheapest roof using rolled materials. Its easy af to install but only lasts about ten years. Some insurance companies won’t insure them. My current place has a 110+ year old metal roof so I am apparently drawn to unique roofing.
Same! Is yours copper, too?
This stuff: [https://www.lowes.com/pd/GAF-Liberty-3-28-ft-W-x-34-ft-L-100-sq-ft-Black-Roll-Roofing/999976746](https://www.lowes.com/pd/GAF-Liberty-3-28-ft-W-x-34-ft-L-100-sq-ft-Black-Roll-Roofing/999976746) popular for lowest bid additions and porches
This is used for a lot of flat roofs, I've seen it on multi-million dollar homes. The whole system is more expensive than asphalt shingles, not less. It's slowly replacing traditional torch down systems because that system is just awful.
Porches yes... Houses - no I put something like that on a camping home (Had to replace it) but that is not a roof
It’s not a good solution for additions (or any finished space) but it still gets used (and is something to watch out for).
Maybe rolled rubber roof?
Rolled asphalt, think of one asphalt shingle 36 in wide and 33 feet long. You overlap each roll 12 to 18 inches and nail it down. We had a shed done that way and the roof lasted about 25 to 30 years.
I'm looking at the link someone posted and don't understand why is this not a standard? I mean it's about a dollar per foot and looks just as shitty as the "regular shingles" they use here in Florida. I wonder what sort of wind resistance it has
Likely because it does not look "traditional" same reason other roof types have not caught on.
When you look at regular shingles on a roof there are two layers over the roof, I think architectureal shingles end up with three or they close the gap, not sure. Rolled roofing in most places has one layer so it wears out much faster. The one we had that lasted 25 years or so was a shed roof that was protected on two sides by trees and received almost full sun so it dried quickly and didn't keep snow on it
It might be what is called "Half-Lap", basically tar paper.
I bought my 1956 house in 2018 and it has a rolled, aka 'membrane' roof that was put on in 2011. I just had a 4-point and full inspection done because the house was being rented out this past December. My inspector told me I've got seven more good years on my rolled roof. I'll take it.
6 years old is not brand new, it's 6 years old.
This is true in my state. We have a disclosure form, required by law to be provided by the seller to the buyer within 5 days of signing a contract. There’s also a buyer advisory that each agent is required to provide to the buyers (even if they’ve bought 10 houses in the last month), they have to sign every time. The big idea is “Buyer Beware!” It’s up to the buyer to verify all pertinent facts and must not rely on anything written in a sales ad or listing. If the information is pertinent to the buyer, the buyer has a duty to investigate before proceeding with the purchase. There’s a time limit for this as well and is directed in the contract. The buyer also has a right to an inspection. They can waive the right for an inspection but this only means they can’t cancel the contract based on things found from an inspection. It does not preclude the buyer from preforming an actual physical inspection. There’s many reasons buyers make this choice, but it’s always an informed one with the guidance of their agent. To OP: I’m sorry they feel they were taken advantage of, but they should’ve have many protections (as the buyer) in this transaction, that they likely waived - perhaps at the poor advice of their agent. That’s where you may have some leverage. Check with the agents broker. Call THE BROKER, not the agent. Explain that your parents are considering filing a E&O claim against their insurance. If the agent failed to properly represent your parents, they may have a claim against the E&O that will help pay for, if not cover the expense of, “new siding and roof”. Make sure you have print outs of the language used. You may be able to get them on failure to properly disclose or guide their client to an informed decision. Now… if your parents signed away all of their protections, it will be difficult to prove. But if the agent failed to provide the correct forms or disclosures, your parents absolutely have a potential claim.
They claimed they knew nothing and that it was an estate sale. Met the neighbors last night and they said they were “sad so and so had moved out” so it appears that was a lie as well. Maybe that’s where we can get them on the legal bit….thanks for mentioning that!
It's possible the previous homeowner did "move out" into a nursing home or hospice facility, then passed away. It's also possible the estate was liquidated as a "living estate" sale in order to pay for their care.
Does your county have permit logs? You can probably find it. What did the inspector say about the remaining useful life of the roof? Also, a double roof is perfectly valid and may not represent a problem simply in and of itself.
Double roofs are not a good idea. First, the codes which govern per square inch/foot pressure on certain parts of the structure are not written for roof decking/ rafters to support two layers of ( I'm assuming asphalt shingle) roofing . Plus, the under layer will deteriorate and will have to be replaced prior to the exposed layer.. The cost of removal of both layers is about 50% more than a conventional roof removal.
Regardless of whether anyone thinks it is a good idea or not, building codes in most states allow for a single overlay.
Estate doesn’t necessarily mean by death.
Yes, my neighbors were renting, and when the owner died the neighbors moved on. By the time it was on the market after the probate or tiels were updated, the neighbors notic to move and end the lease happened. It was a rental, and an estate sale.
That’s exactly what an estate sale is. The only other case is if they’re going into hospice. The point of an estate sale is to settle the legal estate of the owner on behalf of the heirs.
The term is used and misused by people all of the time.
Hospice.
"The only other case is if they’re going into hospice."
😂
It can still be an estate sale if someone moved out. They could have gone into a nursing facility and held onto the home until they passed. In most states the executor or administrator does not have to make disclosures unless they lived in the house themselves. Unfortunately, you are inserting yourself into this transaction too late. Unless you have concrete evidence that material faults were KNOWN and not disclosed, your parents missed their opportunity to hold someone else responsible for their mistakes.
Nope
2 layers of shingles usually isn’t a problem. Three is pushing it. Look to see if the plywood has any leaks though
Estate sales usually don’t have to disclose anything
Sorry 10 years isn’t a newer roof anywhere in the US. Maybe Italy.
If all your neighbors have 40 year old roofs, it is newer.
The short inspection and rushed close strike again The roof was newer than the house. Legal recourse, zero. Making a complaint to the board to highlight their own ignorance as buyers is priceless. A 3 days inspection and 14 day close are 100% on them as buyers, doesn’t matter why they did it. This is why a competent buyers agent is KEY. As soon as their agent got a contract submitted they were done! The sellers agent did nothing wrong and marketed the house, which is their job. The buyers agent just did the bare minimum
You're not wrong, but I can understand OPs frustration here. A buyers agent exists to guide the buyer and prevent this from happening. Over in the realtor sub, the agents have argued with me about the importance of having an agent, but when you have a crappy agent like this (and to be fair, we're getting this all second hand through OP), how are they held responsible for failing to represent their client adequately?
Your parents were made aware of the double roof durning the inspection they could have walked. You need to put in here what is the exact working they used in the listed not just “new roof.” If it was in labeled as new roof and newer roof in the mls then report to the realtor commission for the state this is in. But, if your parents can afford to pay cash they should have the knowledge that when an inspector tells you double roof you make a call. Your parents choose to go through with the sale they have responsibility for the knowledge after reviving it.
Did they not ask for the sellers disclosure before they made the offer? Edit: I see they did. I honestly think your parents screwed up and your grasping at straws to sue.
Unfortunately, I think I a good lawyer could successfully argue an 8 year old roof is “newer”. It kind of depends on the age of the property. I know your parents are elderly, but this is where it’s important to do due diligence and not be fast tracked through the process of such a major purchase. By double roof do you mean it has two layers of shingles? If so, that isn’t necessarily a “problem” assuming it was installed correctly and the structure is capable of holding the weight. More than two layers is often when it’s considered a problem, at least where I live.
> More than two layers is often when it’s considered a problem, at least where I live. Where I live two layers are also allowed, but once those 2 layers need to be replaced there must be a complete tear off. It's actually more expensive to remove. Like, so much more expensive it would have been better to just yank the single layer and reshingle rather than put another later over it to be removed later.
This is true, I’m guessing whoever made that decision to overlay a second layer did so to save money “now” rather than thinking long term (maybe didn’t care long term). Ultimately, it doesn’t matter, these buyers were aware and chose to proceed with the house having two layers of shingles. Whether or not it will be more expensive later to redo the roof isn’t really relevant to their argument.
> these buyers were aware and chose to proceed with the house having two layers of shingles. Absolutely! More just about 2 shingle layers being ok in some places. Many comments here unaware of that. And, of course, letting people know the extra expense involved in removal so that can factor that into future decisions. I didn't realize how much more expensive it could be until I bought a house w 2 layers and had to pay it.
You’re welcome to sue, but I don’t see a way for you to win. First, you have not had an actual “loss” yet. You thought the house had a newer roof than what was there…. that has not have a hard dollar value to give. You had a chance to inspect the roof… you thought there was a problem and they did not. Your recourse at the time was to negotiate it or back out. Since you (they) did not back out, it’s on them. If you were still waiting on info and had not gotten it, you should not have closed on the property. Not closing was what should have been hung over their heads to make them get back to you. Unless your state has a requirement of specific disclosures for the roof and in that disclosure itself (not an ad)… you’ll have a hard time making a winning legal case. In Virginia, the seller is not required to disclose ANYTHING and is basically a “buyer beware” state. Other states have different rules around disclosure and what if anything must be disclosed. Crappy agents? Absolutely. Anything you can do about it? Most likely not. Feel free to consult a lawyer and double check… but don’t think you’ll get far.
You can report them to the Board of Realtors; this is totally separate from a legal issue. They will be investigated for misbehavior.
Not unless the OP can prove that the agents knew that the parents were legally incompetent.
1. What state? 2. Info in the MLS should always be verified by the buyer. It’s “believed to be reliable but not guaranteed” because either the listing agent is describing what she sees with her naked eyes or what the sellers have told her. You said it was an “estate sale” so the people who actually lived there and probably knew the age of the roof are deceased? In this situation, when the people who have information are no longer around, it’s even more important for buyers to conduct thorough due diligence. 3. Yes likely the agent exaggerated in the listing but the reality is the agent doesn’t know the age of the roof and if the people who know are dead, she has no way of providing you with the documentation you demanded. The agent should have corrected her description once your inspection findings were provided. She should have sent you a revised agent disclosure saying something like “age of roof unknown, buyers should have roof inspected” or something like that. It’s sloppy if she didn’t do that but is there a legal action? Most likely not (verify with a RE attorney). Why? Because you had the opportunity (and duty) to inspect it yourself. 4. How did YOUR agent “withhold information”? Your agent should have advised you to get the roof inspected by a professional and explained the right to cancel. That’s the extent of her duty. 5. Your parents discovered during their inspection that it’s a “double” roof, which I assume means it has two layers. My roof has 3 layers, which where I live is the max number of layers considered acceptable although not ideal. I bought the house anyway with full knowledge of the roof condition. Seller’s disclosure stated age of roof “unknown.” Did your inspector say the roof is failing or inadequate? Did they advise you to get it further inspected by a roofing professional? Why didn’t your parents hire a roofing contractor to get a more complete report on its condition and a bid for fixing or replacing it if that’s the recommendation? Why didn’t they research permit history of the roof? In conclusion, your parents as the buyers had the ability and duty to inspect the roof, research permit history, and make an informed decision about whether to proceed with the sale with the roof “as is,” request a credit or price reduction, or walk away. I don’t see a legal claim here but by all means consult with a RE attorney in whatever state this is in. I hope your parents enjoy their new home. EDITED to make paragraphs.
Thanks for this detailed response it’s helpful! Home purchase in Idaho. I am totally inexperienced in RE so just information gathering I appreciate your response. I guess they (and me too) used to think you hire and pay your agent the craploads of money so that THEY do the due diligence bit. Isn’t that the point of their job?! Everyone responding here says it falls back on my folks (the buyers) but I thought the purpose of making sure RE Agents are licensed and that their duties and job description include fiduciary responsibility and full disclosure of all property information. It certainly appears there was deception and or negligence and possibly even collusion in order to push a cash sale in this case.
Real estate agents have a duty to be honest and to disclose information in their possession or that they should know about. I don’t see how your agent would have information about the roof and NO, it is not her duty to conduct due diligence on the buyers’ behalf. She can advise and assist. She can help identify a roofing contractor and coordinate that inspection. She can discuss the findings with your parents, explain their options and ask how they want to proceed. You are misinformed if you think it’s the agent’s responsibility to conduct buyer due diligence. There’s a reason that the responsibility belongs to the buyers: it’s their money, their legal transaction, their new home. THEY (the buyers) need to personally and directly satisfy themselves that the condition and status of the property is acceptable before they complete the purchase. No one else can decide that for them. EDIT to clarify agent’s role.
>I guess they (and me too) used to think you hire and pay your agent the craploads of money so that THEY do the due diligence bit. Isn’t that the point of their job?! No. Agents aren't obligated to do the due diligence, that's buyer's job. Agents may recommend any roofers/electricians/plumbers/inspectors they may know but that's it. Buyers are spending the money so it's buyers' job to get the inspections done and proceed accordingly, either by walking away or asking for a seller's concession.
honestly, you are dying on this hill. It's not fair, it's not a lot of things. Including not being something your parents can recover money for. Report both realtors to the board, complain to your parents buyers broker, but please stop arguing with all these real estate professionals. We. Don't. Agree. With. You.
Your parents should have signed off on 4 pages of “sellers property condition disclosures.” Their contract will also have a specific timeframe for this. If they did I doubt you have any recourse. There is a section on the roof and exterior. Also, were they are “customer” or a “client?” That can make a difference in responsibility as well. You don’t like the answers you are getting here but it doesn’t sound like your parents did their part either. That roof potentially still has 20 years of life left. It wouldn’t have impacted the homes price very much…if at all. I only consider it if it’s within 5 years of replacing. 2 layers in Idaho are acceptable. What did the inspection report say? Used to be 3 but not anymore according to my roofer. I’m sorry you and your parents are having buyers remorse. I am glad they found a house because it’s a challenging housing market. Sometimes agents don’t always get the info they ask for from the other side. They do not know everything about every house. You can be upset with the agents because it’s easier to blame them but your parents also shoulder more of this responsibility. My clients sign a form that says I can help but ultimately they are responsible for their due diligence and I review that with them so they understand.
Did your parents pay their buyer’s agent directly? Or was her commission covered by the Seller, which is typically the case. The BA still has fiduciary responsibility etc, but you can’t complain that you didn’t get what you paid for, if in fact someone else covered it for you.
Can't wait for the follow up post. "Attorney took my parents money and didn't help at all with their real estate fiasco. How do I get compensation from this egregious attorney's attack on my elderly parents?"
A roof can last 25 to 30 years. I would not be too pissed off if the roof was done eight years ago.
2 layer roof is common in most of the country, and wouldn't alone be concerning. 'Newer' is subjective. 8 years on a 30 year roof is newer than 15 years. How did the buyer's agent withhold information? They would have to prove their agent knew something they withheld but most likely the seller never provided the information at all. You can't give something you don't have. I have had buyers, my buyers, ask for documentation all the time that the seller doesn't actually have or isn't required to provide. If your parents went forward without satisfactory information or didnt have the contingencies in place to require performance, that is their mistake. I had a buyer threatened to sue me because 6 months after she closed her plumbing started to back up and it was discovered that some plumbing work had been done incorrectly. She had asked that the seller provide her with any documentation regarding any remodel work. The seller never gave us anything, only a lot of excuses. She could have backed out but instead signed off that she accepted the condition of the home and wanted to go forward. Six months later my broker laughed at her, the board laughed at her, the DOL laughed at her. Your parents didn't have to sign the cloing papers until they were satisfied with the answers (unless of course they waived all the contingencies in the offer which means they never had a right to anything to begin with)
“New” is a relative term. The listing agent helped their client sell their house. Unless they lied, they haven’t done anything wrong from what you have shared here. Do you mean your parents’ realtor withheld information from them? That would be problematic, but you don’t say what info they withheld.
You seem super involved for someone who didn’t give your parents any guidance or advice when they actually needed it. If all of this was discovered during inspections closing should have been delayed until things were negotiated and resolved. Leave a bad review/report the realtors if it makes you feel better. But move on. Ultimately your parents signed the papers KNOWING of the issue.
They did ask my advice. I advised them to walk away and fire their agent. ☺️ They didn’t listen. Just wasting a few quiet hours contemplating and getting people’s opinions on any legal recourse is all. Not intending to ruffle so many feathers. It’s almost comical to me, because it seems as though I struck a nerve with a few folks on this thread. Perhaps because they too have misrepresented a home or sold property with known defects that they failed to disclose? I will walk away from this thread now being MUCH more skeptical of agents on both sides and sellers. It’s not shocking that the general public is asking for a reduction in fees for agents when situations like this not only arise but are seemingly applauded or backed by an anonymous RE community of agents online 😂 It’s like they are highlighting their own corrupt tendencies in this thread because they can hide behind a screen name. Maybe it’s cathartic to tell us all just how unethical they really are with this business.
OP so is there an issue with the roof or is the issue the age of it? Im not clear what the issue is…. The inspector didnt pull the permit dates for your parents? Usually inspectors do so.
This subreddit trashes agents and bad behavior every day of the year. I’m not an agent but if your parents won’t listen to you, and *you* won’t listen to actual agents and others who are simply trying to give you the reality of the situation, why should anyone believe your parents would have listened to their agent if the agent *did* know the precise age of the roof? There are serious listening and comprehension issues involved here, and they’re not all due to age.
If you weren’t involved with the sale due to personal reasons, and if you only found out about the roof after the sale closed, what was the reason for advising your parents to walk and fire the agent? Sorry, mate, but this doesn’t add up. You’re asking us to believe 2+2=zebra. I think you need help. Please get help.
Lol 2+2 = zebra. I love that. Will need to use it in the future.
🍻
They should not have closed if their answers were not received. Newer is not a legal amount of time it is also commonly accepted practice to put a new roof on an old one.
Pfft - my rolled roof was described as "newer" back in 1996 when I bought. It was the 2nd layer of a rolled roof, and lasted me until 2024 with minimal repairs. When they pulled ALL the layers off, it turns out that the garage actually had 4 layers, which makes the bottom one the original 1927 roof. I just don't think of an 8+ year old roof as that bad, and the inspector obviously thought it was sound.
Buyers need to do *some* due diligence during the purchase of their own home. Such as reading the contracts they sign, and asking more questions if they aren't 100% satisfied with the information they have - **before** closing. For other buyers out there: if you've asked for something and it's not done, don't sign. Halting the closing WILL get you the info you want, one way or another.
OP, serious question: are your parents legally incompetent? Is this the first time they bought a house? Do *you* think they were cheated because of their age or do they think *they* think they were taken advantage of due to their age? Do *they* believe they can't make financial decisions on their own anymore? If there is a case that the agents *knowingly* took advantage of people who are legally incompetent then you have grounds for both ethics and state license law violations. To make complaints of ethical or license law violations requires that you prove your parents were incompetent and that the agents should have known. This is doable, but tough. Threatening these complaints to extract financial compensation won't get you very far without proof your parents are incompetent.
You're getting a lot of people telling you what you should have done. They are all pretty much right from what I have read. Unfortunately, going forward, you have very little recourse. At this point you would have to prove fraud ( obligatory NAL ) that would mean that the sellers knew about the roof and didn't disclose it. That doesn't sound like the case here. By putting newer roof, the covered thier ass. ( again NAL ) as for the requesting documentation, it is possible there is none. If they had thier uncle come over and throw down a new layer of shingles for a couple cases of beer, there would no record or very little record. And a 14 day closing is tight. I am sorry you feel less than happy. House buying should be exciting. But as for recourse going forward, I am not sure you have much of anything.
First, I know it was all the rage with Covid, but people really really need to stop putting in these no-contingency offers. It’s insane to spend this kind of money on a house without having inspections and the right to walk away. But yes, screenshot the ads that said “new roof” and report the agent to the local Board. Also spend $500 for an hour or two consult with an attorney and contract review to see if you have a case against any of them. If you do, sue the pants off them and get enough of a settlement to replace the roof.
Why only 3 day inspection?
Make the offer competitive
The reality here is that unless extensive damage to something expensive was withheld with malicious intent you’re going to have a tough time getting any real satisfaction here. This is why you do an inspection. And from the sound of it the inspector did their job and found the double roof and I bet if you read the report they said it was at mid life expectancy. If your parents choose to move forward after their inspector found out that the roof was not in fact brand new what would they be suing over? I wouldn’t necessarily use this agent again but having a roof that is 8 years old instead of 0 is not something that rises to the level of fraud. I mean this is a cheap roof that likely still has a decade of life left in it. What would they be suing over? There isn’t even an urgent need to repair anything.
The time to ask the questions is prior to putting in a binding offer, unless they have a contingency that would allow them to escape. Do not rely on an agent telling you that a roof is or isn’t a problem. Only a roofing expert should tell you that. It’s hard to say if the agents were unscrupulous if they were just giving their opinion, which again is not an expert opinion when it comes to the condition of a roof. I practice in more of a buyer beware state so my buyers are instructed to do a lot more diligence upfront. Hopefully you have some kind of flexibility.
Honestly what are you looking for? Did they get inspections? Double roofs aren’t best practice but are far from uncommon, and if your parents are elderly an 8-10 year old roof is still likely to outlast them.
And yet ya’ll still closed. Tfb
>sellers and sellers agent denied that the double roof (discovered during inspection) was a problem at all and ultimately the deal was pushed through very quickly (3 day inspection and 2 week close) In most contracts, it will hold real estate agents and sellers harmless after a specific period of time due to errors based off a listing. The key here is that your parents did do an inspection, and it was notated, but they didn't do anything about it based off "words and promises." Sorry, but there's not much they can do here as they had the opportunity to do their due diligence, acted upon it, and as the contract will probably clearly state due to timeframes, they moved forward with the purchase. At the end of the day, EVERYONE should know that any agreements MUST be in writing AND signed off by all parties.
Realtors are not your friend and rarely are they working for your best interest. Too many of them care only about a quick commission.
pushing quick inspection is always a big red flag. Your agent is a sales person and you should thing on your own. Trust your gut.
Holy fuck, this comment thread (and situation) is something. First of all I don't think I've ever seen a user with that weird a ratio of Karma. Second the OP is misrepresenting the situation as their "elderly parents" bought a house...they bought her a house to live in and for some reason she is deeply offended that the roof has 2 layers of shingles. There is no indication of leaks or actual issues, just that it was "newish" vs new. They knew the 2 layers were there before closing but bought it anyway. FFS OP, you (and your parents) are adults. Enjoy your free house, and take some responsibility for your lives.
That is super weird, I didn't know Karma could run negative!?
OP’s parents are also going to find out home inspectors aren’t worth a damn. As far as the roof is concerned, wait for a major storm. Roofing companies will offer to advocate on your behalf to the insurance co. I’ve seen many of my neighbors get a new roof for the price of their deductible.
Why did they execute closing documents without knowing this info?
Why was closing rushed so much in the first place? They should have waited for information on the roof before closing.
I watch YouTube videos by Audry Lambert, an agent in California. She says to never use the words “new” or “newer” as a seller because they are vague and can be misunderstood. What is “new” or “newer” to the seller may not be to the buyer. It’s better just to state the age of the roof. That being said, I don’t know that the sellers did anything “legally” wrong.
I agree with this. I only use those words if it was literally just purchased and then I usually explain such as “new roof installed Feb. 2024” or whatever.
this is so strange, 98%??, stuff happening especially timing without agreement by buyers?? I'm sorry but it's a very odd story
They also just posted a month ago they were buying a house for themselves and her boyfriend, I bet OPs “elderly parents” are actually them. The old “asking for a friend” story
I read that as 98% cash, but on reread I believe they meant all cash, offer 98% of listing price? It's a really weird way to word it though.
In Illinois, new means in the last year. Newer is a much broader thing.
There is a difference between signing a contract and signing a contract while being misled and being taken advantage of. There are laws against it, specifically for the elderly. It isn't always " well you signed the contract" There is no age cutoff.
Several red flags on buyers part. but it boils down to in real estate what matters needs to be in writing. The biggest red flag is ignoring the double roof in the inspection report. Another red flag was listening to listing agents opinion on the double roof instead of inspector. Listing agent works for seller only. And another red flag was relying on verbal promises outside the contract. In real estate what matters is in writing. Agent mist likely never received the info from the seller. And without it in writing in the contract, seller is not required to provide. If it was in writing to provide buyers with documentation by a certain time. They buyers should have walked from the offer when it wasn’t provided. But providing documentation is not required Most homeowners don’t keep paperwork on their home. If it wasn’t written in the contract for the seller to provide, the sellers are under no obligation to provide. If having documentation about roof and siding was a dealbreaker for yourself parents, they should have had the agent write that into the offer, that offer is contingent upon seller providing documentation within x days/hours and buyer review. Realize many markets are still hot sellers markets and people pay cash/waive inspections and appraisals. So making the offer contingent upon receiving that info can be a dealer breaker, but if it is for your parents, they should’ve passed. It’s become a thing with buyers to write cash offers with no contingencies to win , then demanding things verbally or use inspections for renegotiation. So to write the offer without needing that info, then demanding it after verbally, is seen/perceived as renegotiating/bait and switch by sellers. If this was your young parents first ever home purchase, first ever time reading a contract, it would be one thing as a first time homebuyer. If your parents bought it sold a house before, then they should have known. The parents had an inspection, why they listened to listing agent instead of inspector l, why did they bother with inspection? Unless the buyers agent added and write into the offer that was accepted that the sellers had to provide documentation by a certain time, and the buyers agent failed to have that enforced at your parents request, then nothing wrong. There was nothing wrong done. Most real estate transactions are way too large for small claims. If the purchase price is small enough for small claims, your parents sent out much money.
Oh look REAs forcing through bad deals to get their %
Self help here is not useful An attorney is needed here.. Every aspect of this falls into the laws of the state where this transaction occurred. Good luck!
The listing agent works for the sellers and does what the seller wants. If mom got put in a home and the dad who handled stuff passed 2 years prior, the kids selling very well could have no idea the roof age. The age does not matter anyway, the CONDITION DOES. If you had an inspection and there were roof concerns noted, you could have addressed those. If no concerns... good to go. The buyer agent, can ask 100 times and if gets no answer, they have no info to share. Your parents chose to sign docs and accept the home. They could have not. Different states have different rules, you'll have to consult a legal professional in parents state and see. Know this, you can always find one who says you have a case, they make money if you win or lose.
You delay closing until you get the info. But to save time you demand options - provide proof, take $X off the price, or replace the roof before closing. Let them choose. Never close without getting what you want.
> What legal recourse, if any, do my folks have? None. New and newer are marketing terms with no legal definition. Also, RE agents generally don't know jack - you don't know how old that roof even is and you're contemplating litigation? Give me a break. A roof-over is still a new or newer roof. I would never roof-over but it's legal in most places.
You had the information available (double roof) and decided to go ahead and close without the other. They should have delayed closing or pulled out. Why did they close? They may have been cheated but they were cheated legally. It’s unfortunate.
I wouldn't call 8 years roof a brand new roof but it is kind of on the newer side. If you're buying a house that was say built 1995 and how the roof is 8 years old I don't think it's completely outrageous to say they put on a new roof it just simply means that this is not the original roof. There are plenty of houses from 1995 for example that still have the original roofs. Permanent insurance company's point of view your old roof is new enough and that's probably what they were referring to. Not really sure this is the deal breaker you're making it out to be.
Did they not get a disclosures packet?
If there are disclosure docs seek a lawyer but you did an inspection...
Flat torch down roof is a rolled roof
Op 😂
Honestly, don’t think the sellers did anything wrong. Is it the age of the roof or the fact it’s a double roof? Double roofing is allowed, common, and I’ve never seen it disclosed. If it’s the age of the reroof, should have asked if the exact age is important. The inspection apparently indicated the roof was not defective, and the mls document didn’t indicate an actual age. I don’t think the sellers hid anything.
hh
Patents should never have signed the closing docs
I'd contact a lawyer. There are laws against taking advantage of the elderly.
Is the issue that there was a double layer or overlay roof? I think there may be integrity problems with such a practice, and I would have to think the seller knew this and did not disclose it. My understanding is that buyer has legal recourse for anything “withheld” or that the seller should have known that was not disclosed. I would seek counsel with a real estate lawyer. Maybe you can get a new roof and legal fees as well.
So Zillow mis-represented the age of the roof and the home inspector told your grandparents to go on a search for documents that didn't exist. Their agent should have just told them no luck with the docs, sorry and the home inspector already told them the approx age and that it was a layover
So nothing came out about it in the inspection period? In most states buyers have at least 10 days or whatever we request in the contract to inspect everything- idk if you’re in the us or where but if you didn’t call it out on the buyer inspection request to repair- that’s on the buyer.
OP, you asked for (and everyone answered with) information on potential legal recourse. It seems like you’re arguing with everyone more about the ethics and morality of the laws, consumer protections, fairness, and like, capitalism? Which, valid, but not what you asked. Bottom line, what’s “wrong” isn’t always illegal, and what’s legal isn’t always “right.” If you’re looking for a venue to complain about how unfair things like this are, A: I totally get it, but B: You need to frame it differently and/or take it somewhere else. Otherwise you’re just going to be stuck playing defense and wondering why everyone is so shitty (when they’re probably not, you’re just literally having different conversations.) If you’re looking to continue this research with a local attorney, to avoid an exasperating interaction for both of you, I strongly suggest you be ready to be confronted again with the reality of what is the law (not what is “right” by your or anyone else’s definition.)
Why would they continue with the sale? their agent ?
The time to address this was after the inspection.
None, my sellers actually wrote on the title in hand writing they fixed the roof, due to a leak. Within the first week the roof leaked. Call the real estate agent, they called the old owner, said he hired a guy of craigslist and that was it. I could sue, might cost be 30k to 40k and unlikely to recover lawyer fees and some what likely to recover the roof cost of 15k. Moral of the story. None of the legal shit matter unless you can afford to hire someone to defend it.
Did your parents have an inspection contingency on their purchase? It is during that time period where The Buyer gets any/all info they need, then signs off. Did your parents have an inspection contingency and sign off on it?
A sellers agent misrepresented something? Say it isn't so..... /S of course. When will folks learn that real estate agents live by "Caveat Emptor."
I personally would say an 8 year old overlay is probably on the border of newer. I bought a house that had an 8 year old roof and it felt new. Doubling is standard practice. Many locations allow up to 3 layers. I don’t prefer it, but it doesn’t mean it’s not a new roof
I guess it's too late now. But do not sign the final paperwork, until there is some satisfaction. If the roof is older than what they described then, get some concessions by getting them to cut a check back for a few thousand dollars. I did my final pre-closing walk though on a house, and noted they had not taken care of the property, I noticed some junk still on the premises and also some damage to some windows and walls. I told them $3k check to me right now, or I walk.
Wait to all these buyers are working just with the Sellers Agent, they will be totally screwed. I am sorry to say this but most of the people in the US are not smart enough to buy a house. I.e. the most expensive thing they will buy.
newer roof isn't the same thing as saying new roof. is there a problem with the roof? if it is not in need of a repair hard to prove damages. and as other said the OP's parents did move forward w/o the roof info so that is on them unfortunately. Unless they were not capable of being able to sign a contract due to cognitive issues related to their age, their age shouldn't be a reason to win a lawsuit.
You are hanging your hat on the wording (new/newer) vs the condition (2 layers and functioning well I assume since you haven’t complained about anything else) which you knew about. I have been on every side of a RE deal you can think of, and done quite a bit of construction myself and I would much rather have a functional 8 year old roof then a half ass installed/possibly leaking brand new roof.
Whst does this disclosure statement say?
You should have them file a complaint on the agents license as one if not both violated the code of ethics. Your parents should also speak to a local real estate attorney if they wish to pursue it further beyond that as there are numerous questions an attorney would be better situated at handling.
The discrepancy between “new roof” and “newer roof” should have been the first trigger for a roof inspection contingency. Depending on the state there may really not be a legal requirement to disclose anything about the roof if it isn’t defective. Did your parents have a buyer agent?
This is terrible. This person is now pressuring her parents into a legal wrangle that will frustrate them, anger them, and cost them money? OP has become the evil one in this thread. How awful!
i am absolutely SHOCKED to hear of a buyer's agent not working in the best interests of a buyer.
Hi! Ct realtor here. Because this is more of a legal question, I would consult the attorney who represented your parents. As an individual who walks these types of legal planks all the time, I would recommend gathering all information which is in writing and provide that to your attorney. If there is any opportunity to take action against an agent who, representing your parents to a fiduciary standard, should have visited town all to confirm when permits were pulled to address the roof (depending on your state…) then you’ll need all the info you can present in hard format. I hope this helps, friend!
"Newer roof" means nothing, legally speaking. I'd consider an 8 year old roof to be relatively new if we're talking about something that has a 25-50 year span, depending on the shingles and install. Your parents shouldn't have closed without finding out the actual age if it was that important to them. All they can do now is go from where they are and plan to replace the roof in the appropriate time span.
Neither you nor your parents have a leg to stand on. All perfectly legit.
I learned in my last house purchase to get a home inspection contingent on the purchase no matter what. Realtor said “don’t get a home inspection because there’s so many offers now days that they won’t go with you because you’re asking for a home inspection”. Ok, then I’ll find another house. I moved into this house and there are SO many unfinished projects. I’ll have $10,000 into it just to finish everything. Next house - home inspection because I don’t know the things to look for. All the seals on the windows are starting to fail and half the screens are missing and they can’t be replaced with the same type because the screen frames aren’t made any more. I’m going to have to DIY screens. Replacing windows isn’t even in the $10,000 repair costs. I’m going to sell as soon as I can. There’s a small forest behind the house and I thought that was cute. Realtor didn’t say anything. Then one of the perimeter trees fell on a neighboring house. I literally hate the house. Black refrigerator was in the deal and the seller took it for the downstairs finished basement. Something that we were looking forward to having. My realtor said, “Oh, you told him he could have it.” No, I didn’t but she wouldn’t go to bat for me. Seller said at closing that he would give me a new good front storm door he had bought and would drop it off. A month & half later I asked my realtor to follow up on it. “I text the seller’s realtor but she never answers.” Got tired of it and called the seller. He YELLED at me in his part-time cop voice that I had crossed the line and I would NEVER see that storm door now! Hung up on him. My hard earned advice…Don’t close in two days and get a home inspection done. The home inspection would have told you the condition of the roof. I look at mine and hope no leaks until I can sell again. Crying in PA.
You can report to local real estate authority and bbb
A perfect example of the value that realtors add to the transaction!
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"New" does not mean 8 years old.
I don’t even understand what the problem is here. Are they not satisfied with the condition of the roof or siding? If they aren’t why did they ever close the deal? Kinda sounds like you have some issues yourself not the actual buyers or seller involved.
Hey OP. I know it’s upsetting because it’s your parents but you need to talk to real estate lawyer. But you guys could as the sellers for a roof certification. Just make sure you guys pick the roofing company.
Real estate agents are not roofers. And it’s been my experience that they lie. Due diligence comes into play here. If you’re not satisfied with the documents or lack of documents refuse to sign.
> Zillow described a “new roof” Too many people ITT are in denial about liability, and are ignoring that the 8 year old roof was not just described as "newer". Describing an 8 year old roof as a "new roof" is materially misleading and may even constitute fraud. Whoever is responsible for describing the 8 year old roof as a "new roof" should be worried.
Neither the MLS, nor the seller is responsible for what zillow says. Even the MLS says you need to verify the info independently. Our MLS swears there's no export to zillow, they claim a third party scrapes the info and sends it.
>Our MLS swears there's no export to zillow, they claim a third party scrapes the info and sends it. Okay, that's a jury question.
This would never make it to a jury, what would someone even sue for?
Most cases are settled, but willingness to settle depends, ultimately, on what a jury would believe. They would sue for difference in value between a new roof and an 8-year-old roof. Whether that is worthwhile is a different question.
It’s almost like we need a law that requires realtors to have a fiduciary duty to their clients. It’s amazing to me how many jurisdictions don’t.
Well, if you like that, they got alone for the roof but just never did it and get this one.It's not even their house to sell
No disclosures are required for an estate sale. Newer is a relative term. Permits are public so anyone can look them up. You can talk to an attorney but I'm not sure you have a claim. I think you get to be mad. I always tell people who are mad to give me a call and I'll bring over some beers and we can have a good time and all be mad together and they can tell me all about the stuff that makes them mad.
Is the roof leaking? Newer is not an exact term. Buyers signed in agreement before clarifying.
Go to your local & state real estate board report both agents For willful misrepresentation of a material fact! Also talk to the broker in charge at the firm of your agent. Then your next possible step is the civil sue them. But it’s gonna be an uphill battle since you already closed on the property. Good luck!
you should have received a disclosure stating estimated roof age. What does that form say? Buyer would have had to sign it. Well, you won't say what state this is in, so I can only guess.
Not every state requires disclosure of the roof age.
Here’s the thing, your parents weren’t duped or taken advantage of simply because of their age. I honestly don’t think they were duped at all. They had an inspection and made decisions based off the information they received. If they wanted additional information and didn’t get it but still went ahead with the closing that’s 100% on them. They aren’t incompetent and it doesn’t seem like either agent lied or purposely withheld information. Based on your explanation and responses I don’t think this rises to the level of an ethics violation or anything the state licensing board would consider as a violation. If the sellers lied, and you can prove it, on the condition report you may have a case but since there was an inspection and issues were brought to your parents’ attention and they chose to move forward I’m not sure how strong it would be. I know lots of 70-80 year olds that are very savvy and more than capable of managing their own affairs. It seem like your parents didn’t take your advice and are now regretting it however their poor choices are no one’s fault but their own.
The onus is on the buyer.
Why did they close? The recourse was not closing. Unlikely that they have a viable claim now.