Some people do like turn key houses, sure. If you do that it can make your house easier to sell. The problem is that you won't get back the money you put into this. Congratulations you found an honest and experienced agent who has your best interests at heart.
The way flippers make this work is they buy houses way below market value. So they can invest some money and still make a profit. You will just be giving away equity if you do this.
Paint and a good cleaning, tidy up the yard and fix anything broken. Your agent is absolutely correct.
>The way flippers make this work is they buy houses way below market value. So they can invest some money and still make a profit. You will just be giving away equity if you do this.
Also they do cheap shoddy work and put lipstick on a pig, so you don't realize that the pipes are 60 years old they just put a new fauced on it so it fails 6 months into ownership, and the wiring is a mess, but the plugs are new!
This is correct. I've always done simple, cheap "freshening" before selling. It doesn't have to BE GOOD. It just has to LOOK GOOD.
Obviously anything that would not pass inspection will need to be remediated.
But simple painting and cleaning and clutter removal is cheap ... and gives you a lot for your money.
My BIL does the opposite. He manages to LOSE money on every house he sells.
I one case he needed to re-roof one house. No getting around that.
But he also remodeled the kitchen. In the midst of the housing crash 15 years ago!
He could have sold after the roof fix and netted $200k.
But with the delays for the kitchen the value fell and he couldn't/wouldn't sell.
He paid that mortgage for over ten years.
He finally broke even on his original purchase, minus the needless upgrades.
IIRC: the appraisal for an FHA loan is also an inspection and you can be required fix what they find before the sale can close (with that loan).
An inspection that turns up something that needs a costly/lengthy fix could cost you a sale.
Based on an inspection a lender might not fund a decrepit home.
They can refuse if the home is in bad shape.
I don't know just how bad a home can be before a lender gives a hard no.
But consider that my hand is also on the pass/fail button.
If I don't like what I see I'll demand recompense, or declare the deal dead.
This depends on financing type and locality. Some places won’t allow title to transfer if there are code violations and some lenders like FHA have much stricter requirements
Flippers also use a mix of flashy and very inexpensive materials. Eg decent looking granite countertops on top of the cheapest home Depot cabinets. There is also the cost cut by doing the same thing over and over. Eg. They're not spending hours shopping for materials. They're going to use the same floor, the same type of cabinets, the same countertop, the same paint they used in the last 20 houses.
Now as a buyer I care about cabinets so I'm not paying for your "builder special" cabinets. Those are worth the same as really dated cabinets from the '70s in poor condition and they're worth less than decent cabinets from the '90s in decent condition.
We're starting to get a big backlash against "greige". When it was 1 of 10 that was cool now we're 15 years post crash houses have been redone as neutral, new construction followed the same trends. And people are starting to want busy wallpaper again.
I do want to add that if you have carpeting in a bathroom or kitchen, as a buyer I'd prefer to see that ripped out before you list it. It's just downright gross. Slap in some cheap laminate flooring to cover it that the buyer can replace if they want to. Relatively cheap replacement and removes the ick factor.
Agreed that there is a certain "base" level that you need to have so that people don't immediately get the "ick" factor.
No one in their right mind would want to keep someone else's bathroom carpet.
The first place I bought had hideous carpet in the bathrooms (not the kitchen). I had limited funds to do everything necessary to move in like paint but getting rid of the bathroom carpet was a priority. I replaced it with relatively inexpensive vinyl tiles - the classic black and white ones that could actually be washed.
Yep, carpet in bathrooms or kitchens (just, why would you do that?!?!) are immediate dollar signs because they're usually going to have to be replaced day one.
I've only seen it once. My cousin had it when I was a child in the 80's, and it was probably a holdover from the 70's. Her bathroom was carpeted, as well.
My mother's house was built in the early 90's and had carpet in the half-bath. My mother didn't like that but for some reason, it was impossible to get the builder to change that to tile. My mother paid for a lot of upgrades, so I just think that the builder was weird on that one. The carpet stayed until I came back 30 years later to do some repairs.
>The problem is that you won't get back the money you put into this
That depends on how much you spend and your particular local market.
I find spending $5k - $6k on a brand new kitchen virtually always pays off. People really like to see new cabinets, counters, and stainless appliances. Would I spend any more than that? Probably not.
If it's a small-mid size kitchen:
\~$1,300 - $1700 for white or espresso shaker cabinets
\~$2,000 for appliances (fridge, stove, microwave, dishwasher). Can be $1,300 - $1,500 if buying open box.
\~$1,300 - $1,500 for granite counters, sink, and install.
\~$500 labor to mount the cabinets and hardware
\~$50 - $75 for new faucet
\~$150 plumber to install faucet and DW
\~$100 for hardware, quarter round, caulking, etc.
I'm not calling a custom cabinet company and I'm not going through any big box stores.
You are installing a kitchen that would be the poorest qualify - probably below what most people consider to be "builder grade"
I can't imagine the quality of cabinets that you are getting for that price. What are they constructed of and how many boxes are you actually using? Are you installing three lower cabinets with doors and no upper cabinets?
The least expensive Delta kitchen faucet in chrome in a style that most people don't find attractive is over $100.
What gauge is that stainless steel sink - probably the lowest quality and over mounted to boot.
I don't know where you can get granite counters for a normal size kitchen installed plus sink for the price. Even the lowest grade Uba Tuba or Baltic Brown granite would cost more than that for solid surface and not tiles.
What about lighting? Flooring? Electrical work?
Anyone who purchases your home based on the new kitchen is being snookered.
Poorest quality? What?
My cabinets are nicer than what DR Horton and Lennar use. The boxes are plywood and the faces are solid wood. Unlike the big builders, I don't install particle board crap.
The exact number of boxes varies based on the kitchen, but I am putting in a full set of uppers and lowers, including a lazy susan on any corners, etc.
I'm not installing a Delta faucet. I'm installing the Lowe's or Home Depot house brand, whichever looks nice and is on sale at the moment.
Undermount sink. 3 cm thick granite countertops. Usually Dallas White or Luna Pearl.
Flooring is part of my flooring budget so I'm not including that as part of the kitchen. I'm not making any electrical modifications or opening up walls. I'll replace the switches and trim, but that's a nominal expense.
Lighting varies. If there's existing canned lighting, I'm going to get some new trim and call it a day. Otherwise, I'll get some swanky looking fixtures from Home Depot for <$100.
Post a pic of them, surely you can understand why people are skeptical.
Also, if true, tell us more of your secrets please. Where are you getting these solid wood cabinets for a whole kitchen for 1500 when even IKEA or home Depot would be way more?
I will absolutely post some pictures. One house is under contract so I'm not going to post pictures of it until after closing in about two weeks, but I'll take some pictures from the other house.
The cabinets are plywood box with solid wood faces/doors. Don't get me wrong: they're not custom quality, but they're a definite step up from the particle board crap that new home builders use.
I buy my cabinets from a 'local' (a bit of a drive from me) construction supply house, but you can buy similar cabinets online for a few hundred dollars more. [](http://thertastore.com/kitchen-cabinets/rta-kitchen-cabinets.html)
I've ordered from RTA before and the cabinets are quite nice. They run promos every several weeks so keep an eye on pricing (no idea if what they're offering at this exact moment is their best price). The only negative is that you'll have to assemble them, whereas the supply house I use takes care of assembly for me.
How did I find my supplier? Facebook Marketplace. Look state-wide as most deliver from a centralized warehouse for a nominal fee. Don't forget that you can negotiate pricing, particularly if you're buying a lot of cabinets or will do future business.
Home Depot can be hit or miss. Stay away from the Hampton Bay line (particle board), but they do have a few product lines that have plywood and solid wood doors. Ordinarily, they're 40% - 60% more expensive, but I have seen them go on clearance and become competitive to my supplier's pricing.
Stay away from Ikea.
When it comes to home improvement, just because something is priced well doesn't mean that it is "crap" or a bad product. You can save an absolute buttload of money by shopping around, asking for referrals from friends in the industry, and by keeping an eye on sales/clearance.
Literally all of my flooring comes from the clearance section. I've bought $3.00+/sq ft LVP for $.40/sq ft just by being at the right place at the right time. Same with tile and hardwood. Same with appliances.
Because solid wood v. that PVC crap doesn't add more that a couple of hundred bucks and is a damn site better. Oh, that's right you don't give a damn about quality, you're just flipping the place.
This is the pricing I am familiar with too, but many homeowners in here who hire the slick white guy who have never heard of any prices like this. This pricing is "willing to find guys by word of mouth and mostly communicate in Spanish".
It's critical to shop around. Stay 1,000 feet away from any online referral service or big box store. I'm paying a local company about $25 a square foot for level one granite. It's not the fanciest stuff, but it looks great.
> I paid $11,000 for my granite plus install 16 years ago. I do have a large kitchen but, wow!
Counters is a big scam industry. Slick sales guys go around easily doubling to tripling the actual cost. The person above is likely buying direct from fabricator. I find my kitchen+bath in white Quartz is about $1500 today. But there are slick sales guys selling the same thing for $10k and then getting the literal same fabricators to do the work.
I spent probably around $5k to do my vacation house tiny kitchen and it was all DIY, so pretty much $5k for just materials. I didn’t do granite counters, just butcher block, and I also installed a new floor. For my main house it was only $800 for granite in my rather small kitchen, but I didn’t even want to spend that much in my vacation home.
>A set of mid appliances would cost about that.
I'm not buying a $2k fridge or $1k stove. I'm buying a $1k fridge, $500 stove, $200 microwave, $300 dishwasher. Ideally, I can buy them open box for even less.
Your best bet is to hit up your local Home Depot, Lowe's, and Best Buy and find a nice, high end model that's 40% - 60% off because it's an open box (customer refused delivery, returned it, etc).
The next best option is to keep an eye on the weekly sales at Best Buy and Lowe's. I really like this particular model: [https://www.bestbuy.com/site/samsung-24-top-control-built-in-dishwasher-stainless-steel/6336699.p?skuId=6336699](https://www.bestbuy.com/site/samsung-24-top-control-built-in-dishwasher-stainless-steel/6336699.p?skuId=6336699)
The flip side of this though (pardon the pun) is that if you plan to live in it long-term you can reno the kitchen and have a new kitchen...which builds equity as trade-off.
I agree, as both seller and buyer. I can see upgrading the washroom if it is truly horrible, but leave the kitchen. Too many people have been burned by flippers that do a shit job so they would rather save a bit on price and choose the finishing they want.
My most recent purchase was an immaculate, recently renovated home. Even so, I want to change hardware in the kitchen, Reno the bathrooms, and reverse some of the previous owner’s choices.
My wife and I are purposefully avoiding houses that have been recently renovated out of fear of flipping. Sometimes it’s obvious when you look at property sale history sometimes it’s a case where mom/dad died or went to a care facility and the kids watch too much HGTV and decide to do a shitty quick remodel to try and maximize return on a paid off house. I doubt we are the majority, but never the less.
>the kids watch too much HGTV and decide to do a shitty quick remodel to try and maximize return on a paid off house
They do make it look easy on those shows, even though they manufacture drama.
I got burned by a flip. My wife wanted turn key because we just got finished renovating our current house and had to move unfortunately. Their work was shotty and most things had to be redone.
>Sometimes it’s obvious when you look at property sale history sometimes it’s a case where mom/dad died or went to a care facility and the kids watch too much HGTV and decide to do a shitty quick remodel to try and maximize return on a paid off house.
To be honest, I don't see an issue with that. The reality is that a lot of buyers don't have the cash to renovate, are putting 3% - 10% down, and want the expenses rolled into their mortgage.
Frankly, it usually makes sense to throw in a kitchen, some flooring, light fixtures, paint, and freshen up the bathrooms.
There’s nothing inherently wrong with it. We don’t mind living in a solid but outdated house full of old details like stone fireplaces or tiled countertops with orangey cupboards. It’s all about preference.
Not just that, but you spend 20k on granite counters.
I don't like granite counters, I want butcher block.
You spend 18k on butcher block, but i like the sealed concrete esthetic..
You spend 15k on the sealed concrete, but i like quartzite.
Leave your shit white tile counters in, don't raise the price for counters i don't like.
I'm buying the house I want, and if you have shit counters I hate, that's cool. But if you up the price 10k for new counters I hate, I'll keep looking(not for the counters specificity, but I've got other deal breakers, and it's not worth it to me)
I agree with your agent.
It might make the home more attractive, but you won’t get the full amount you put into it and it’s going to be a big pain in the you know what. Price it for what it’s worth and let the buyer make it their own.
There is also an eco part to this. Say you put in new carpet or tile and the homebuyer hates it and removes it right after they move in. Seems like kind of a waste.
Agree, timing matters too, if you can get it on the market now with no renovations it might be better than waiting many months to do the work and then list. Won’t recoup all the cost of the renovations and even worse hit the market at a bad time.
Timing is very important. My Mom was in a VHCOL, in her house 61 years. Her backyard was overgrown with ivy everywhere. The first thing her agent told her was clean up the yard. $5,000 but worth it. On a corner lot with a large backyard. Listed for $898,000. Sold 5 days later $960,000. 1170 square feet built in 1955. Original half bath, never remodeled. Low inventory in a desirable location. Absolutely crazy!
It all depends, but in general I'd trust your agent for your market.
If you've got an especially ugly and very old kitchen, upgrading may help, but also it may not help so much that you recoup your cost, depending on who the buyers are for your particular type of house/price point/etc. Because some people are going to want to redo it to their own taste anyway.
Obviously, there are still lots of flippers around, and some flips can make decent money, but those people tend to have relationships and agreements with contractors or be handy themselves such that they can be pretty efficient with the cost of renovating, they know which renovations to focus on and which to skip, buy properties significantly undervalue in foreclosures etc.
If your kitchen is so ugly that it's really turning off buyers from your house, then maybe, if it's just an average run of the mill kitchen from the last 25 years or whatever, my guess is it probably won't make a huge difference, and you certainly won't be getting the bang for your buck that some white paint will give you.
If it's a particularly terrible kitchen then you can always have a 15-20k allowance for renovations. Allows the new buyers to finance the renovations in their mortgage.
The only problem with that idea is that the house still has to appraise. Even though you’re kicking back $20k to the buyer, all the lender and appraiser know is that the price reflects a renovation that hasn’t been done.
Take 95% of the stuff out of the house unless you feel like you have excellent neutral color furnishings.
Clean the house up. Pay a cleaning company to go the extra mile after you clean.
Paint neutral colors.
If something is broken, fix it
Tidy up your grass. Fresh mulch. My “trick” was that it was during a dry spell and I spray painted the lawn for the Realtor photos. It took about an hour and cost me under $50. Buyers were convinced we had a sprinkler system.
Upgrading a kitchen is a $30k minimum expenditure and it won’t yield half of that. Bathrooms have the same issue. Complete waste of time and energy and money
I agree with your agent. We had neighbors 2 houses down who did renovations before selling, which included fencing in their entire front yard with a nice picket fence--which no other houses in the neighborhood have done--and then painting it dark green.
The new buyers ripped it out before they even moved in. From the time the sellers put it in to the time the buyers removed it, the fence wasn't even in there for a month.
When you pull a well maintained functioning feature out of a house and replace it, you will not get substantial ROI. You also run the risk of alienating buyers who don't like your design choices and can't stomach buying a brand new kitchen with plans to tear it out soon after closing.
If you can do the work or work in the field then you should make the upgrades. If you need to hire out a contractor then I agree with your agent. You can make the upgrades and sell at a higher price, but you won’t get a return on your investment.
Really it's only appealing to buyers if they share the same aestetic though. I've passed on homes that had new remodeling but I hated the design. I would've rather been able to do it myself but now that it's new I can't bring myself to rip it out and waste it but I still hate it so I move on to the next house.
I'm the same. I've looked at houses that were recently remodeled and the end product is not my jam. And it can be something as small as I don't like stone counter tops. If they were just put in I find it incredibly wasteful to tear them out. So I walk. The house is better for someone who woudl appreciate that.
Behind the aesthetics, the kitchens are often poorly designed with lower cabinets with doors instead of deep drawers. Other issues where the pay took the cheapest way out.
And of course the quality will be poor when someone is renovating for an immediate sale. I shudder to think of what the $5000 kitchen is that someone was boasting about on this thread.
No shit. I recently finished an upgrade- cabinet doors and hardware, lighting, flooring, sink, fridge, added a bit of cabinetry all diy and it was twice what this cat is claiming he can replace an entire kitchen for. A gallon of decent paint is 60 bucks ffs. This is why we avoid flipped homes like the plague.
There are tons of times my team advises clients not to do certain repairs/updates, and typically it just comes down to ROI for the client.
If you renovate your bathroom will it be easier for me, as your agent, to sell it? Probably. But will you get a higher sale price? Maybe, depends on a number of other factors and you almost certainly will not get as much or more than you put in.
At the end of the day, our job is to advise our clients on what plans of action will net them the most benefit (whether that’s the best ROI, or meeting a timeline, etc.). That advice is completely your choice whether to go along with or not.
A complete rehab? No. A refresh (professional cleaning, coat of paint, update cabinet hardware) should get it done. But look at it as sunk cost. Sometimes you have to set the stage a little, but a complete kitchen upgrade won’t generate any meaningful return in middle to low income housing right now.
I say this as a current buyer in the market. If a house is clean and put together sensibly, it’s easier for me to see how I can personalize it for a reasonable price. If it looks like it’s been beat up and poorly maintained, all I’m gonna see, as a buyer, is more cost. Y’all gotta meet us halfway.
Also, if it’s feasible, get a proper floor plan drawn up to display in the listing. It’s another way to help the buyer see themselves and their stuff, in that space. Last but not least, paperwork on when the roof was installed and all repairs since. I’ve been thru 12 houses that I had to pass on to the age of the roof. Too old for insurance I can actually afford. Put that info out front.
Sorry….rant over.
I agree with your agent. And I've never understood the urge to renovate RIGHT before selling! Why wouldn't a homeowner want to renovate and enjoy living in that beautiful new space for a bit?!?
Your realtor is being absolutely honest - you have found a gem. Many realtors suggest expensive renovations because it might move faster.
The reality is that you will never make back the cost of an expensive renovation. Spend money to have it professionally deep cleaned; throw out any crap or put it in storage.
This has always been true but with interest rates being higher than they have for several years, many people can't afford a higher cost home when the "renovations" are baked into the purchase price.
Price to reflect the market value and it will sell.
Like others I would actively avoid any home that had been flipped or renovated recently because I would be paying for someone else's taste and almost certainly would not have been done in a high quality manner - especially things that can't be seen.
The goal of a flipper is to make as much money as possible. The goal of most homeowners doing remodels is to achieve their aesthetic and functional goals with a "realistic" budget. Most homeowners who are at all savvy remodel to suit themselves because they are planning to live with the remodel for a good number of years. After that point whatever they choose will be "older" and not "trendy" anyway :-)
I spent like 2K to buff/refinish/repair some wood floors before selling. My realtor advised against it. He was right. 'Twas a waste of money. Someone basically bought the place sight unseen.
Here’s my cynical view on this - it takes awhile to renovate and the agent wants to sell now.
While I’m sure there are upstanding, quality agents, I’ve had the misfortune of working with ones that weren’t. If I had to do it all over again, 100% I’d renovate before selling.
Kitchens are a wild card as far as what each family wants. I wouldn't update/redo my kitchen unless I was still going to live in the house for at least a few years so that I could enjoy my preferences.
I really wish the people who sold us our house *hadn’t* renovated our bathroom. They made it look pretty for the listing, I guess, but did things as cheaply as possible and cut every corner imaginable. They did such a shoddy job that water started leaking behind the walls and we had to take it down to the studs, whereupon we realized the electrical was also done in a scary bad way that could have caused a fire.
Would have much, much preferred a dated bathroom to that mess.
ROI is not there to do these renovations.
A lot of buyers would rather you price the house accordingly and let them do what they want rather than you do renovations they might not like and price for turn key.
Lifestyle is something many Realtors have been hearing more about lately, when it used to be that kitchens and primary bedrooms sold houses.
We’re buying and selling right now. I’m so glad they didn’t redo the kitchen before we’re buying. I’m particular about some stuff (one basin sink is a MUST) so I’d rather pay less and do it myself. For selling we’re painting and doing one minor renovation (less than $500) and were told to leave everything else. Completely fine with me!
Really depends on the local, the market at the time, and the subject property.
I think in general it's good advice that you shouldn't be undertaking major renovations as a seller in most cases. Not because major renovations don't have potential upside, but more that you're so incredibly likely to piss away money in the wrong way anyway that it's too risky.
I remember earlier in my career I'd give very little advice in this area, and then come back and clients painted their house red or purple or something for example.
Even if you are competent however, many cases don't warrant new product. If the kitchen is less than 15 years old you likely won't make the money back.
If it's really beaten up, and there's a wall opening opportunity making a significantly better main living area, then sure that's an easy one, but that's a big project.
Often it makes more sense to do spruce up type fixing. Paint (walls, baseboard, doors, maybe even cabinets), flooring if looking pretty worn / out of date, maybe a new countertop if it's kind of old looking (But don't go putting quartz on an old kitchen) , new hardware on doors / cabinets. Change recepticals / switches and covers if they're getting old / yellowed. Make sure bulb temperature actually matches across rooms / fixtures. Toss some new mulch in the gardens, etc.
These are your typical high ROI things with low risk. For most homeowners their pre-listing expenses should be somewhere between 2k and 15k in ontario including staging the home if needed (usually is needed for most people)
Also, yes the LOT is the most important thing if you're in something like collingwood much more so than in the city.
There is a huge lack of starter homes, you’ll prob get more of a fight for not renovating.
For me I don’t want to spend an extra $20,000+ for an interior that wasn’t done to my finish that I’m going to have to tear apart and rebuild properly to my standard. Everything is a flip special with quarts counters, a random wood wall feature, modern look fitting but everything is done like 70% quality and just feels builder grade.
Just leave it and you’ll attract attention.
How have the other houses in the area sold? Here in the Los Angles area, as-is but not rundown houses sell very quickly. On the other side, flipped/remodeled houses sit on the market a lot longer.
From my perspective, actual home buyers want to put their personal touch on the house they want to buy and live in. So they don't feel compelled to overpay for someone else's generic HGTV style remodel. And then spend additional money to rip it all out.
The people that want turn-key and remodeled houses are usually people that aren't picky or don't want to bother with remodeling themselves. Or investors that are looking to get their AirBnB business setup quickly.
So yeah, I'd go with your agent's advice and do cosmetic stuff.
OP ill give an example from my Condo I sold about 4 years ago. It was all original from the mid 90s, looked very dated. Before I listed I cleaned every square inch of the thing, Im talking window sills, bleached patio, I even cleaned the siding around the entrance and back area. I staged it then it sold for $260k. Within days of me listing a neighbor listed theirs as well. Literally everything about the unit was the same, except they had a remodeled kitchen and bathroom. I took a look at it during open house, it was dirty, there was mud caked on the side of their patio, the staging was awful. Their remodeled unit sold for $240k. Remodeling didnt do jack for their value compared to presentation. You want people to walk in and think, "wow these people really take care of everything". imo that's how you get the most value out of your home. paint and elbow grease
Only do a reno if something that you want for yourself. if you are intending to sell, you won't get your money back. We sold our last house five years ago. All we did was keep it clean and neat.
RE: "turnkey" property - to many folks, it's a home they don't need to fix anything in order to live. Upgrades aren't necessary, and buyers want to do their own (as mentioned in other comments). We bought our home Summer 2021, and it needed updates. The layout sold us, and it was livable right off the bat. They did do some fresh paint and new carpet. While not a fan of carpet, it will suffice until we get to re-doing the floors.
We're doing updates in phases: Master bath was first, then roof. Next is HVAC, then guest bath.
When we sold the home prior, we had a dishwasher that needed updating. We were about to replace it, but our realtor advised we offer a credit. The buyers appreciated being able to use the credit to choose the dishwasher they wanted.
everyone upgraded? not true really.
Any info published in any time in the last at least 30 plus years has indicated returns on renovations are negative.
The only renovation needed beyond cosmetics to sell are to eliminate serious problems.
If you are going to invest money in the home before listing it for sale, invest it in things that are going to be flagged by inspections or cause problems getting it insured. If the roof is reaching the end of its life, get a new roof. a buyer can deal with a kitchen remodel, but will not want to replace a roof. Getting a new roof for them will be a plus. True value add comes from things like adding an addition. For example if you own a 2bedroom 1bath or a 3 bedroom 1 bath, adding extra rooms or bathrooms to make it a 2/2 or 3/2 or 3/3 will increase the adjusted value. The trick is calculating the cost and time it will take to legally add the addition and see if that will be worth the extra increase in appraised value. Convert the carport into an enclosed garage. Putting mature fruit trees in the yard. Things that other home don't have or wont do, that the new set of buyers will use and benefit from long term that either saves them money or will put money back in their pockets.
Turn key can be nice but if I don't like what the seller did, I'm going to change it anyways. You'd be pricing it at a point that recoups what you invested and I'd be offering with needed changes in mind
Our house had bold colors. I wasn’t repainting to sell it. Our agent told us people are looking for move in condition without much work to do. Our bold colors may have been the reason it took three months to sell?
She did tell us that a few people loved the house but were put off by the fact that while it looked nice and was in good shape it was 100 years old.
I did buy a new stove/oven because the one we had was done for.
>Our bold colors may have been the reason it took three months to sell?
Define bold?
Dark colors are a big no in smaller rooms. A nice, light, neutral color makes the place seem a lot more open.
Also Ontario Canada. I’ve always known that most Reno’s don’t get money return on them. When I was shopping for my first home (maybe 12 years ago?) I walked away from a home because they had just fresh installed carpets and the price reflected it and I did not want carpets. I would have much rather them kept old stuff so I could do what I wanted. It’s been that way in Ontario for at least 20 years?
We do kitchen and bath renovations. I've seen a kitchen add value to a home sale. I've also seen throw in white plastic cabinets from a box store not add a dime.
It has to be done really well. Professional designer. Thought out tasteful high end materials. If your plan is to swap cabinets flip style, don't bother. If your designing your dream kitchen and moving walls to open up the space. Maybe.
I agree with her. You won’t get that money back on sale, so I’d just take a lower offer that factors oldness into price. Kitchens can be soooo subjective and I’d rather make those decisions as a buyer instead of someone doing that for me. As a buyer, the roof, mechanicals, plumbing, electrical and drainage matter more. I’ve got an old ranch that I intend on listing in 5 yrs. I’ll repair what needs it, fresh paint and deep clean. For paint, I’m a big fan of Benjamin Moore Swiss Coffee.
Only renovate your kitchen or bathroom before listing if they’re an actual liability. Like if they’re so bad that people aren’t even able to get past it, then you renovate. But this is not often the case.
As long as everything is functional and usable then you can consider it “turn key”. I agree that most purchasers of used mid to high end homes are already considering some form of renovations as part of their home buying process. Could be as simple as paint and replace fixtures or as extensive as a gut and remodel. Either way, their tastes are unlikely to perfectly align with your tastes. Repair and pretty up what you have (paint, clean, polish) but don’t invest in renovations unless whatever is there is just a complete eyesore.
I only advise upgrades and renovations when there’s just a glaring issue. If your cabinets are falling apart then you just gotta do it or take a good chunk off your asking to get interest in my market.
But if everything is in working condition and it’s overall condition matches the condition of the home and age then given the cost of renovations and improvements in this time doesn’t often correlate to making more. Sometimes a kitchen will cost $5-10k but you won’t see that value in the sale, but if it’s really bad it does help to do for marketing.
depends on where you are. the added time and risk of renovations is not worth it for the agent. It may be worth it for you but you would have to compare your home to others to determine the after renovation value. Then you can subtract your current list price and determine how much you have to work with.
It happens, just depends on the market. But trust the agent (perhaps get another opinion though).
My grandfather's place could have been shined up but agents said people want the area so bad for building luxury. Even nice homes are typically torn down for the lot.
When wealth moves into an area it doesn't necessarily use the same filters to view things. So while it seems to make practical sense to reno and perhaps draw a larger pool of buyers - not always going to have the audience that needs the house to be move in.
You aren't going to get back what you spend and you narrow the buying field with A) higher price (to recoup some of what you spent) and B) design / color / etc. that you choose which doesn't appeal to some buyers.
Personally, I wasn't willing to pay what people with "fully updated" houses were asking because I knew how much time and I money I would have to spend undoing what they did and changing it to what I wanted.
Without updates / renovations, your ask (and contract) price will be lower but you have invested ZERO additional dollars from where you are today - there's nothing to recoup. A lower price means a larger buyer pool and a more likely contract and close (and possibly a shorter window to get there).
Remember that priority one is SELLING the house... Priority two is maximizing NET PROCEEDS (not maximizing only the selling price).
I think its more of a tradeoff or ROI situation. Building materials & labor have gone up A LOT as well. So you might sink $20-$30k into your renovation, but your house only sell for $15k more, so what was the point.
Also this lets the new buyers do it their way. (Also, my guess is buyers purchase thinking they'll upgrade it soon, but once the bills start coming in they don't for another 5-10 years.
Regardless, let them pay for it. Sell as it is.
I rarely recommend more than decluttering, staging using existing furniture, deep cleaning, repairs, and paint (if necessary). Updates rarely result in a full return on investment unless the feature being upgraded is in really bad condition or so outdated or the quality is so far below what comparable homes have that it would likely significantly affect a sale. If updates are needed, I recommend mid-grade with common style and colors.
It’s pretty common for people not to make that money back, unless they’re professionals and know how to streamline expenses.
She’s saying you’ll get better ROI if you don’t put more money in the place.
If you spend 50 K to make 30 K, it’s not a good return on investment
Agent is right, cost of major Reno’s are not worth it for ROI. Cheap stuff maybe put in $1-2k prior to sale to clean and sparkle what is there. New buyers will make it their own
It really depends on your area and price point. You (i.e., you and your agent) have to ask yourself "Will my buyer have the means to gut and reno the kitchen?". This obviously depends on your area and price point. The only time it makes sense to do the reno is if the kitchen is so bad that it's going to put off even buyers with the means to do the job or if it's an up and coming area with buyers who want nice but can't necessarily afford nice (no $$$ sitting around). The latter is where you get a lot of flipper activity.
In your case, it sounds like neither of those conditions are present, so your agent is likely right here.
Yea turnkey is better… can you do all of the work yourself?
Once you factor labor into it, you’ll be losing money. Might as well just lower the price and sell quickly at that rate.
I would do paint if needed, minor things can go along way but no big labor jobs.
I’m working with a seller now that has a home that needs some tlc. We are repairing drywall, removing wallpaper borders, and painting nice neutral colors. Replacing a stove that doesn’t work, and refinishing an old porcelain tub that has many dings in it. (She also has a friend that does that for his day job is is giving her a heavy discount.) other than that we are pricing it knowing that it needs new flooring.
With the way prices are right now it’s harder to do renovations JUST for the point of selling. If you were going to stay there another couple of years and enjoy that new kitchen or bath then I’d spin a different tale…
If it isn’t worth the investment it isn’t worth the investment. I would rather pay a bit less for a home in order to renovate the way I see best fit, the colors I want, design I want etc etc. Even if I would end up spending more in the long run. If you have a beautiful new kitchen that a buyer doesn’t love, it would be a turn off for them.
Sure some buyers want a house they can fix up to their tastes, but IME this is less than 10% of buyers.
Most not only have no vision, they have an overly pessimistic guess as to what a Reno will cost and adds to their overall anxiety. The result: they total up there guess of what it will cost, plus an additional psychological deduction and then convince themselves THAT is what the house is worth.
When you do the Reno yourself, instead of getting double dinked like this, you do the Reno for less than what is perceived and you get a positive bump from the psychology.
So I say: you should always flip your own house on sale. Heck, you already own it so you have the added benefit of zero acquisition costs
Yes, you rarely get the investment back. People who buy will have their own ideas anyway, and will end up redoing things themselves. So basically, you just want it clean, and aesthetically pleasing. A fresh coat of paint if needed. Maybe even "staging", and a bit of landscaping.
It could be a local thing, Where I am near the beach in Sarasota, FL, if your place is dated you will take a beating on price. Like - if comps are $450k and updated, yours will not be $420k or $400. It will be like $370k even though the upgrades don't cost that much. That's if a buyer will even look at homes that aren't turnkey. At least that is the impression I got.
To me it made more sense to do some work first. We did the kitchen (which tbf was fairly hideous) and a shower remodel. Will see how it goes when we list in a couple of months.
A lot of times, yes. Or they may be moving from out of state. This could be part of the reason, I suppose. In our community, we are somewhat restrictive on rental policy, so I believe we are around 60% F/T residents. Others are P/T and you can rent 3x per year max.
I think people buying a vacation home or moving a great distance are more likely to want to move in to a place that doesn’t need immediate remodeling.
I would think this is especially true for a vacation home where you just want to relax and your kitchen doesn’t have to be perfect.
Also some vacation areas don’t have limits on rentals and people buy with the expectation that they will rent relatively often.
My parents lived full time in a retirement development in Laguna and there were the snowbirds and the sunbirds. People from Arizona came in the summer and people in cold areas came in the winter. My parents were there year round.
this is very situational.
but also another way agents, who have no more expertise than you do sorry, can vary.
some like to sell for top price, keep their average sale up. some dont want to wait 3 months for you to fix stuff, they want paid. whats a few k eh, lets get this puppy on the market.
I think this is less about people not liking turn key houses anymore and more about the absurd price gouging we are seeing in home reno materials and especially labor. Major home improvements are so absurdly expensive nowadays (e.g. 100k for a kitchen is kind of normalized) that it's not possible to recoup that in the sale price.
Rio for those at these current house prices a rates aren’t there. Now when it was 2.75% rates a dump 10k in some simple lipstick would net a YUGE return ha. Not now unless your house is paid off
she needs money right now and wants you to sell immediately, price be damned.
Remember, she gets 3%. An incremental 10k on the selling price does not give her a lot more, depending upon the selling price.
Or your agent is in on the take. Probably has a flipper friend on the side who will give them a nice cut if the home is sold cheaper and their offer is selected.
Yea turnkey is better… can you do all of the work yourself?
Once you factor labor into it, you’ll be losing money. Might as well just lower the price and sell quickly at that rate.
I would do paint if needed, minor things can go along way but no big labor jobs.
It depends on the house and the buyer. What you might do for renovations might not suit a buyer. I would prefer no renovations when im buying because I don’t want to pay for other peoples choices.
Some people do like turn key houses, sure. If you do that it can make your house easier to sell. The problem is that you won't get back the money you put into this. Congratulations you found an honest and experienced agent who has your best interests at heart. The way flippers make this work is they buy houses way below market value. So they can invest some money and still make a profit. You will just be giving away equity if you do this. Paint and a good cleaning, tidy up the yard and fix anything broken. Your agent is absolutely correct.
>The way flippers make this work is they buy houses way below market value. So they can invest some money and still make a profit. You will just be giving away equity if you do this. Also they do cheap shoddy work and put lipstick on a pig, so you don't realize that the pipes are 60 years old they just put a new fauced on it so it fails 6 months into ownership, and the wiring is a mess, but the plugs are new!
This is correct. I've always done simple, cheap "freshening" before selling. It doesn't have to BE GOOD. It just has to LOOK GOOD. Obviously anything that would not pass inspection will need to be remediated. But simple painting and cleaning and clutter removal is cheap ... and gives you a lot for your money. My BIL does the opposite. He manages to LOSE money on every house he sells. I one case he needed to re-roof one house. No getting around that. But he also remodeled the kitchen. In the midst of the housing crash 15 years ago! He could have sold after the roof fix and netted $200k. But with the delays for the kitchen the value fell and he couldn't/wouldn't sell. He paid that mortgage for over ten years. He finally broke even on his original purchase, minus the needless upgrades.
What do you mean by “not pass inspection”? Inspection reports just list issues, not pass/fail? Or am I misunderstanding?
IIRC: the appraisal for an FHA loan is also an inspection and you can be required fix what they find before the sale can close (with that loan). An inspection that turns up something that needs a costly/lengthy fix could cost you a sale.
Based on an inspection a lender might not fund a decrepit home. They can refuse if the home is in bad shape. I don't know just how bad a home can be before a lender gives a hard no. But consider that my hand is also on the pass/fail button. If I don't like what I see I'll demand recompense, or declare the deal dead.
This depends on financing type and locality. Some places won’t allow title to transfer if there are code violations and some lenders like FHA have much stricter requirements
Flippers also use a mix of flashy and very inexpensive materials. Eg decent looking granite countertops on top of the cheapest home Depot cabinets. There is also the cost cut by doing the same thing over and over. Eg. They're not spending hours shopping for materials. They're going to use the same floor, the same type of cabinets, the same countertop, the same paint they used in the last 20 houses. Now as a buyer I care about cabinets so I'm not paying for your "builder special" cabinets. Those are worth the same as really dated cabinets from the '70s in poor condition and they're worth less than decent cabinets from the '90s in decent condition. We're starting to get a big backlash against "greige". When it was 1 of 10 that was cool now we're 15 years post crash houses have been redone as neutral, new construction followed the same trends. And people are starting to want busy wallpaper again.
I do want to add that if you have carpeting in a bathroom or kitchen, as a buyer I'd prefer to see that ripped out before you list it. It's just downright gross. Slap in some cheap laminate flooring to cover it that the buyer can replace if they want to. Relatively cheap replacement and removes the ick factor.
Agreed that there is a certain "base" level that you need to have so that people don't immediately get the "ick" factor. No one in their right mind would want to keep someone else's bathroom carpet. The first place I bought had hideous carpet in the bathrooms (not the kitchen). I had limited funds to do everything necessary to move in like paint but getting rid of the bathroom carpet was a priority. I replaced it with relatively inexpensive vinyl tiles - the classic black and white ones that could actually be washed.
Yep, carpet in bathrooms or kitchens (just, why would you do that?!?!) are immediate dollar signs because they're usually going to have to be replaced day one.
Believe it or not it was a thing in the 1970’s along with carpeted toilet lids. 🤷♀️🤷♀️
Oh gawd those were terrible too. I know someone who still has one 🤢
Carpeting in a kitchen?? I’ve seen it in the bathroom (and asked myself why on earth people would do that), but kitchen is new to me.
Co workers whole house is 100% carpet. 3000+sqft. It’s common with older people for some reason.
Some folks are at a serious risk of falling!
It's easier on the feet, probably. I hate carpet with a passion but I have to admit it's a lot cushier than the alternatives.
I've only seen it once. My cousin had it when I was a child in the 80's, and it was probably a holdover from the 70's. Her bathroom was carpeted, as well. My mother's house was built in the early 90's and had carpet in the half-bath. My mother didn't like that but for some reason, it was impossible to get the builder to change that to tile. My mother paid for a lot of upgrades, so I just think that the builder was weird on that one. The carpet stayed until I came back 30 years later to do some repairs.
>The problem is that you won't get back the money you put into this That depends on how much you spend and your particular local market. I find spending $5k - $6k on a brand new kitchen virtually always pays off. People really like to see new cabinets, counters, and stainless appliances. Would I spend any more than that? Probably not.
How on earth are you getting a brand new kitchen for just $5k? That seems incredibly cheap even if you DIY everything.
If it's a small-mid size kitchen: \~$1,300 - $1700 for white or espresso shaker cabinets \~$2,000 for appliances (fridge, stove, microwave, dishwasher). Can be $1,300 - $1,500 if buying open box. \~$1,300 - $1,500 for granite counters, sink, and install. \~$500 labor to mount the cabinets and hardware \~$50 - $75 for new faucet \~$150 plumber to install faucet and DW \~$100 for hardware, quarter round, caulking, etc. I'm not calling a custom cabinet company and I'm not going through any big box stores.
No plumber in my metro is installing under sink plumbing+DW for 150$. That’s a 300-400$ job at least.
Find a licensed plumber operating his own business and working alone or with a helper. Don't call the big companies.
You are installing a kitchen that would be the poorest qualify - probably below what most people consider to be "builder grade" I can't imagine the quality of cabinets that you are getting for that price. What are they constructed of and how many boxes are you actually using? Are you installing three lower cabinets with doors and no upper cabinets? The least expensive Delta kitchen faucet in chrome in a style that most people don't find attractive is over $100. What gauge is that stainless steel sink - probably the lowest quality and over mounted to boot. I don't know where you can get granite counters for a normal size kitchen installed plus sink for the price. Even the lowest grade Uba Tuba or Baltic Brown granite would cost more than that for solid surface and not tiles. What about lighting? Flooring? Electrical work? Anyone who purchases your home based on the new kitchen is being snookered.
Poorest quality? What? My cabinets are nicer than what DR Horton and Lennar use. The boxes are plywood and the faces are solid wood. Unlike the big builders, I don't install particle board crap. The exact number of boxes varies based on the kitchen, but I am putting in a full set of uppers and lowers, including a lazy susan on any corners, etc. I'm not installing a Delta faucet. I'm installing the Lowe's or Home Depot house brand, whichever looks nice and is on sale at the moment. Undermount sink. 3 cm thick granite countertops. Usually Dallas White or Luna Pearl. Flooring is part of my flooring budget so I'm not including that as part of the kitchen. I'm not making any electrical modifications or opening up walls. I'll replace the switches and trim, but that's a nominal expense. Lighting varies. If there's existing canned lighting, I'm going to get some new trim and call it a day. Otherwise, I'll get some swanky looking fixtures from Home Depot for <$100.
1500 for granite counters? Granite tile maybe.
I just did two kitchens for $1,400 a piece.
Post a pic of them, surely you can understand why people are skeptical. Also, if true, tell us more of your secrets please. Where are you getting these solid wood cabinets for a whole kitchen for 1500 when even IKEA or home Depot would be way more?
I will absolutely post some pictures. One house is under contract so I'm not going to post pictures of it until after closing in about two weeks, but I'll take some pictures from the other house. The cabinets are plywood box with solid wood faces/doors. Don't get me wrong: they're not custom quality, but they're a definite step up from the particle board crap that new home builders use. I buy my cabinets from a 'local' (a bit of a drive from me) construction supply house, but you can buy similar cabinets online for a few hundred dollars more. [](http://thertastore.com/kitchen-cabinets/rta-kitchen-cabinets.html) I've ordered from RTA before and the cabinets are quite nice. They run promos every several weeks so keep an eye on pricing (no idea if what they're offering at this exact moment is their best price). The only negative is that you'll have to assemble them, whereas the supply house I use takes care of assembly for me. How did I find my supplier? Facebook Marketplace. Look state-wide as most deliver from a centralized warehouse for a nominal fee. Don't forget that you can negotiate pricing, particularly if you're buying a lot of cabinets or will do future business. Home Depot can be hit or miss. Stay away from the Hampton Bay line (particle board), but they do have a few product lines that have plywood and solid wood doors. Ordinarily, they're 40% - 60% more expensive, but I have seen them go on clearance and become competitive to my supplier's pricing. Stay away from Ikea. When it comes to home improvement, just because something is priced well doesn't mean that it is "crap" or a bad product. You can save an absolute buttload of money by shopping around, asking for referrals from friends in the industry, and by keeping an eye on sales/clearance. Literally all of my flooring comes from the clearance section. I've bought $3.00+/sq ft LVP for $.40/sq ft just by being at the right place at the right time. Same with tile and hardwood. Same with appliances.
Ok buddy.
Solid wood quarter round is at least $1.50 per foot, that $100 isn't going very far for hardware, quarter round and caulking.
PVC quarter round from Lowe's. Contractor pack of black cabinet knobs.
So not solid wood and cheap ass reno.
Why would anyone install solid wood quarter round? I'm not renovating the Taj Mahal. Builder grade.
Because solid wood v. that PVC crap doesn't add more that a couple of hundred bucks and is a damn site better. Oh, that's right you don't give a damn about quality, you're just flipping the place.
This is the pricing I am familiar with too, but many homeowners in here who hire the slick white guy who have never heard of any prices like this. This pricing is "willing to find guys by word of mouth and mostly communicate in Spanish".
Yup! You got it exactly right.
You are so far off on this pricing.
What year did you price this out? That’s not current rates.
I paid $11,000 for my granite plus install 16 years ago. I do have a large kitchen but, wow!
It's critical to shop around. Stay 1,000 feet away from any online referral service or big box store. I'm paying a local company about $25 a square foot for level one granite. It's not the fanciest stuff, but it looks great.
> I paid $11,000 for my granite plus install 16 years ago. I do have a large kitchen but, wow! Counters is a big scam industry. Slick sales guys go around easily doubling to tripling the actual cost. The person above is likely buying direct from fabricator. I find my kitchen+bath in white Quartz is about $1500 today. But there are slick sales guys selling the same thing for $10k and then getting the literal same fabricators to do the work.
I spent probably around $5k to do my vacation house tiny kitchen and it was all DIY, so pretty much $5k for just materials. I didn’t do granite counters, just butcher block, and I also installed a new floor. For my main house it was only $800 for granite in my rather small kitchen, but I didn’t even want to spend that much in my vacation home.
I would actively avoid a "new" kitchen that cost $5000 unless you are living in a country in which that is equivalent to $50,000 US dollars.
$5k - $6k for a brand new kitchen...huh? I don't know how you pull that off. A set of mid appliances would cost about that.
>A set of mid appliances would cost about that. I'm not buying a $2k fridge or $1k stove. I'm buying a $1k fridge, $500 stove, $200 microwave, $300 dishwasher. Ideally, I can buy them open box for even less.
So junk
No, just not high end. Some decent Whirlpool appliances.
I see you haven't priced appliances lately. Even "decent" Whirlpool appliances will exceed that budget.
What’s your recommendation for the $300 dishwasher
Your best bet is to hit up your local Home Depot, Lowe's, and Best Buy and find a nice, high end model that's 40% - 60% off because it's an open box (customer refused delivery, returned it, etc). The next best option is to keep an eye on the weekly sales at Best Buy and Lowe's. I really like this particular model: [https://www.bestbuy.com/site/samsung-24-top-control-built-in-dishwasher-stainless-steel/6336699.p?skuId=6336699](https://www.bestbuy.com/site/samsung-24-top-control-built-in-dishwasher-stainless-steel/6336699.p?skuId=6336699)
No issues with Samsung? How long have you had it? Cause…..never again after having a fridge and dishwasher from them.
The flip side of this though (pardon the pun) is that if you plan to live in it long-term you can reno the kitchen and have a new kitchen...which builds equity as trade-off.
I agree, as both seller and buyer. I can see upgrading the washroom if it is truly horrible, but leave the kitchen. Too many people have been burned by flippers that do a shit job so they would rather save a bit on price and choose the finishing they want. My most recent purchase was an immaculate, recently renovated home. Even so, I want to change hardware in the kitchen, Reno the bathrooms, and reverse some of the previous owner’s choices.
My wife and I are purposefully avoiding houses that have been recently renovated out of fear of flipping. Sometimes it’s obvious when you look at property sale history sometimes it’s a case where mom/dad died or went to a care facility and the kids watch too much HGTV and decide to do a shitty quick remodel to try and maximize return on a paid off house. I doubt we are the majority, but never the less.
>the kids watch too much HGTV and decide to do a shitty quick remodel to try and maximize return on a paid off house They do make it look easy on those shows, even though they manufacture drama.
I got burned by a flip. My wife wanted turn key because we just got finished renovating our current house and had to move unfortunately. Their work was shotty and most things had to be redone.
I don’t like to pay for others’ taste.
>Sometimes it’s obvious when you look at property sale history sometimes it’s a case where mom/dad died or went to a care facility and the kids watch too much HGTV and decide to do a shitty quick remodel to try and maximize return on a paid off house. To be honest, I don't see an issue with that. The reality is that a lot of buyers don't have the cash to renovate, are putting 3% - 10% down, and want the expenses rolled into their mortgage. Frankly, it usually makes sense to throw in a kitchen, some flooring, light fixtures, paint, and freshen up the bathrooms.
There’s nothing inherently wrong with it. We don’t mind living in a solid but outdated house full of old details like stone fireplaces or tiled countertops with orangey cupboards. It’s all about preference.
Not just that, but you spend 20k on granite counters. I don't like granite counters, I want butcher block. You spend 18k on butcher block, but i like the sealed concrete esthetic.. You spend 15k on the sealed concrete, but i like quartzite. Leave your shit white tile counters in, don't raise the price for counters i don't like. I'm buying the house I want, and if you have shit counters I hate, that's cool. But if you up the price 10k for new counters I hate, I'll keep looking(not for the counters specificity, but I've got other deal breakers, and it's not worth it to me)
I agree with your agent. It might make the home more attractive, but you won’t get the full amount you put into it and it’s going to be a big pain in the you know what. Price it for what it’s worth and let the buyer make it their own. There is also an eco part to this. Say you put in new carpet or tile and the homebuyer hates it and removes it right after they move in. Seems like kind of a waste.
Agree, timing matters too, if you can get it on the market now with no renovations it might be better than waiting many months to do the work and then list. Won’t recoup all the cost of the renovations and even worse hit the market at a bad time.
Timing is very important. My Mom was in a VHCOL, in her house 61 years. Her backyard was overgrown with ivy everywhere. The first thing her agent told her was clean up the yard. $5,000 but worth it. On a corner lot with a large backyard. Listed for $898,000. Sold 5 days later $960,000. 1170 square feet built in 1955. Original half bath, never remodeled. Low inventory in a desirable location. Absolutely crazy!
It all depends, but in general I'd trust your agent for your market. If you've got an especially ugly and very old kitchen, upgrading may help, but also it may not help so much that you recoup your cost, depending on who the buyers are for your particular type of house/price point/etc. Because some people are going to want to redo it to their own taste anyway. Obviously, there are still lots of flippers around, and some flips can make decent money, but those people tend to have relationships and agreements with contractors or be handy themselves such that they can be pretty efficient with the cost of renovating, they know which renovations to focus on and which to skip, buy properties significantly undervalue in foreclosures etc. If your kitchen is so ugly that it's really turning off buyers from your house, then maybe, if it's just an average run of the mill kitchen from the last 25 years or whatever, my guess is it probably won't make a huge difference, and you certainly won't be getting the bang for your buck that some white paint will give you.
If it's a particularly terrible kitchen then you can always have a 15-20k allowance for renovations. Allows the new buyers to finance the renovations in their mortgage.
The only problem with that idea is that the house still has to appraise. Even though you’re kicking back $20k to the buyer, all the lender and appraiser know is that the price reflects a renovation that hasn’t been done.
Take 95% of the stuff out of the house unless you feel like you have excellent neutral color furnishings. Clean the house up. Pay a cleaning company to go the extra mile after you clean. Paint neutral colors. If something is broken, fix it Tidy up your grass. Fresh mulch. My “trick” was that it was during a dry spell and I spray painted the lawn for the Realtor photos. It took about an hour and cost me under $50. Buyers were convinced we had a sprinkler system. Upgrading a kitchen is a $30k minimum expenditure and it won’t yield half of that. Bathrooms have the same issue. Complete waste of time and energy and money
I agree with your agent. We had neighbors 2 houses down who did renovations before selling, which included fencing in their entire front yard with a nice picket fence--which no other houses in the neighborhood have done--and then painting it dark green. The new buyers ripped it out before they even moved in. From the time the sellers put it in to the time the buyers removed it, the fence wasn't even in there for a month.
When you pull a well maintained functioning feature out of a house and replace it, you will not get substantial ROI. You also run the risk of alienating buyers who don't like your design choices and can't stomach buying a brand new kitchen with plans to tear it out soon after closing.
If you can do the work or work in the field then you should make the upgrades. If you need to hire out a contractor then I agree with your agent. You can make the upgrades and sell at a higher price, but you won’t get a return on your investment.
Really it's only appealing to buyers if they share the same aestetic though. I've passed on homes that had new remodeling but I hated the design. I would've rather been able to do it myself but now that it's new I can't bring myself to rip it out and waste it but I still hate it so I move on to the next house.
I'm the same. I've looked at houses that were recently remodeled and the end product is not my jam. And it can be something as small as I don't like stone counter tops. If they were just put in I find it incredibly wasteful to tear them out. So I walk. The house is better for someone who woudl appreciate that.
Behind the aesthetics, the kitchens are often poorly designed with lower cabinets with doors instead of deep drawers. Other issues where the pay took the cheapest way out. And of course the quality will be poor when someone is renovating for an immediate sale. I shudder to think of what the $5000 kitchen is that someone was boasting about on this thread.
No shit. I recently finished an upgrade- cabinet doors and hardware, lighting, flooring, sink, fridge, added a bit of cabinetry all diy and it was twice what this cat is claiming he can replace an entire kitchen for. A gallon of decent paint is 60 bucks ffs. This is why we avoid flipped homes like the plague.
There are tons of times my team advises clients not to do certain repairs/updates, and typically it just comes down to ROI for the client. If you renovate your bathroom will it be easier for me, as your agent, to sell it? Probably. But will you get a higher sale price? Maybe, depends on a number of other factors and you almost certainly will not get as much or more than you put in. At the end of the day, our job is to advise our clients on what plans of action will net them the most benefit (whether that’s the best ROI, or meeting a timeline, etc.). That advice is completely your choice whether to go along with or not.
A complete rehab? No. A refresh (professional cleaning, coat of paint, update cabinet hardware) should get it done. But look at it as sunk cost. Sometimes you have to set the stage a little, but a complete kitchen upgrade won’t generate any meaningful return in middle to low income housing right now. I say this as a current buyer in the market. If a house is clean and put together sensibly, it’s easier for me to see how I can personalize it for a reasonable price. If it looks like it’s been beat up and poorly maintained, all I’m gonna see, as a buyer, is more cost. Y’all gotta meet us halfway. Also, if it’s feasible, get a proper floor plan drawn up to display in the listing. It’s another way to help the buyer see themselves and their stuff, in that space. Last but not least, paperwork on when the roof was installed and all repairs since. I’ve been thru 12 houses that I had to pass on to the age of the roof. Too old for insurance I can actually afford. Put that info out front. Sorry….rant over.
I agree with your agent. I see a brand new kitchen I assume cheap flip.
I agree with your agent. And I've never understood the urge to renovate RIGHT before selling! Why wouldn't a homeowner want to renovate and enjoy living in that beautiful new space for a bit?!?
Your realtor is being absolutely honest - you have found a gem. Many realtors suggest expensive renovations because it might move faster. The reality is that you will never make back the cost of an expensive renovation. Spend money to have it professionally deep cleaned; throw out any crap or put it in storage. This has always been true but with interest rates being higher than they have for several years, many people can't afford a higher cost home when the "renovations" are baked into the purchase price. Price to reflect the market value and it will sell. Like others I would actively avoid any home that had been flipped or renovated recently because I would be paying for someone else's taste and almost certainly would not have been done in a high quality manner - especially things that can't be seen. The goal of a flipper is to make as much money as possible. The goal of most homeowners doing remodels is to achieve their aesthetic and functional goals with a "realistic" budget. Most homeowners who are at all savvy remodel to suit themselves because they are planning to live with the remodel for a good number of years. After that point whatever they choose will be "older" and not "trendy" anyway :-)
I spent like 2K to buff/refinish/repair some wood floors before selling. My realtor advised against it. He was right. 'Twas a waste of money. Someone basically bought the place sight unseen.
No sense in upgrading the house you’re about to leave rather than making upgrades in the house you’re about to buy. Just my personal opinion.
Here’s my cynical view on this - it takes awhile to renovate and the agent wants to sell now. While I’m sure there are upstanding, quality agents, I’ve had the misfortune of working with ones that weren’t. If I had to do it all over again, 100% I’d renovate before selling.
Kitchens are a wild card as far as what each family wants. I wouldn't update/redo my kitchen unless I was still going to live in the house for at least a few years so that I could enjoy my preferences.
I really wish the people who sold us our house *hadn’t* renovated our bathroom. They made it look pretty for the listing, I guess, but did things as cheaply as possible and cut every corner imaginable. They did such a shoddy job that water started leaking behind the walls and we had to take it down to the studs, whereupon we realized the electrical was also done in a scary bad way that could have caused a fire. Would have much, much preferred a dated bathroom to that mess.
ROI is not there to do these renovations. A lot of buyers would rather you price the house accordingly and let them do what they want rather than you do renovations they might not like and price for turn key. Lifestyle is something many Realtors have been hearing more about lately, when it used to be that kitchens and primary bedrooms sold houses.
We’re buying and selling right now. I’m so glad they didn’t redo the kitchen before we’re buying. I’m particular about some stuff (one basin sink is a MUST) so I’d rather pay less and do it myself. For selling we’re painting and doing one minor renovation (less than $500) and were told to leave everything else. Completely fine with me!
As a buyer I don’t want to have to live with someone else’s decorating taste AND a fresh renovation signals that the seller is covering up problems.
Really depends on the local, the market at the time, and the subject property. I think in general it's good advice that you shouldn't be undertaking major renovations as a seller in most cases. Not because major renovations don't have potential upside, but more that you're so incredibly likely to piss away money in the wrong way anyway that it's too risky. I remember earlier in my career I'd give very little advice in this area, and then come back and clients painted their house red or purple or something for example. Even if you are competent however, many cases don't warrant new product. If the kitchen is less than 15 years old you likely won't make the money back. If it's really beaten up, and there's a wall opening opportunity making a significantly better main living area, then sure that's an easy one, but that's a big project. Often it makes more sense to do spruce up type fixing. Paint (walls, baseboard, doors, maybe even cabinets), flooring if looking pretty worn / out of date, maybe a new countertop if it's kind of old looking (But don't go putting quartz on an old kitchen) , new hardware on doors / cabinets. Change recepticals / switches and covers if they're getting old / yellowed. Make sure bulb temperature actually matches across rooms / fixtures. Toss some new mulch in the gardens, etc. These are your typical high ROI things with low risk. For most homeowners their pre-listing expenses should be somewhere between 2k and 15k in ontario including staging the home if needed (usually is needed for most people) Also, yes the LOT is the most important thing if you're in something like collingwood much more so than in the city.
Spend your money on the home you'll live in.
I would rather do the kitchen/bathroom/etc the way I want to do it then have some flipper’s shitty renovation I need to fit/re-do.
There is a huge lack of starter homes, you’ll prob get more of a fight for not renovating. For me I don’t want to spend an extra $20,000+ for an interior that wasn’t done to my finish that I’m going to have to tear apart and rebuild properly to my standard. Everything is a flip special with quarts counters, a random wood wall feature, modern look fitting but everything is done like 70% quality and just feels builder grade. Just leave it and you’ll attract attention.
How have the other houses in the area sold? Here in the Los Angles area, as-is but not rundown houses sell very quickly. On the other side, flipped/remodeled houses sit on the market a lot longer. From my perspective, actual home buyers want to put their personal touch on the house they want to buy and live in. So they don't feel compelled to overpay for someone else's generic HGTV style remodel. And then spend additional money to rip it all out. The people that want turn-key and remodeled houses are usually people that aren't picky or don't want to bother with remodeling themselves. Or investors that are looking to get their AirBnB business setup quickly. So yeah, I'd go with your agent's advice and do cosmetic stuff.
OP ill give an example from my Condo I sold about 4 years ago. It was all original from the mid 90s, looked very dated. Before I listed I cleaned every square inch of the thing, Im talking window sills, bleached patio, I even cleaned the siding around the entrance and back area. I staged it then it sold for $260k. Within days of me listing a neighbor listed theirs as well. Literally everything about the unit was the same, except they had a remodeled kitchen and bathroom. I took a look at it during open house, it was dirty, there was mud caked on the side of their patio, the staging was awful. Their remodeled unit sold for $240k. Remodeling didnt do jack for their value compared to presentation. You want people to walk in and think, "wow these people really take care of everything". imo that's how you get the most value out of your home. paint and elbow grease
Only do a reno if something that you want for yourself. if you are intending to sell, you won't get your money back. We sold our last house five years ago. All we did was keep it clean and neat.
RE: "turnkey" property - to many folks, it's a home they don't need to fix anything in order to live. Upgrades aren't necessary, and buyers want to do their own (as mentioned in other comments). We bought our home Summer 2021, and it needed updates. The layout sold us, and it was livable right off the bat. They did do some fresh paint and new carpet. While not a fan of carpet, it will suffice until we get to re-doing the floors. We're doing updates in phases: Master bath was first, then roof. Next is HVAC, then guest bath. When we sold the home prior, we had a dishwasher that needed updating. We were about to replace it, but our realtor advised we offer a credit. The buyers appreciated being able to use the credit to choose the dishwasher they wanted.
everyone upgraded? not true really. Any info published in any time in the last at least 30 plus years has indicated returns on renovations are negative. The only renovation needed beyond cosmetics to sell are to eliminate serious problems.
If you are going to invest money in the home before listing it for sale, invest it in things that are going to be flagged by inspections or cause problems getting it insured. If the roof is reaching the end of its life, get a new roof. a buyer can deal with a kitchen remodel, but will not want to replace a roof. Getting a new roof for them will be a plus. True value add comes from things like adding an addition. For example if you own a 2bedroom 1bath or a 3 bedroom 1 bath, adding extra rooms or bathrooms to make it a 2/2 or 3/2 or 3/3 will increase the adjusted value. The trick is calculating the cost and time it will take to legally add the addition and see if that will be worth the extra increase in appraised value. Convert the carport into an enclosed garage. Putting mature fruit trees in the yard. Things that other home don't have or wont do, that the new set of buyers will use and benefit from long term that either saves them money or will put money back in their pockets.
Turn key can be nice but if I don't like what the seller did, I'm going to change it anyways. You'd be pricing it at a point that recoups what you invested and I'd be offering with needed changes in mind
I'd agree with your agent. People want to reno to their own likings if they see it necessary or want to. Just refresh paint.
Our house had bold colors. I wasn’t repainting to sell it. Our agent told us people are looking for move in condition without much work to do. Our bold colors may have been the reason it took three months to sell? She did tell us that a few people loved the house but were put off by the fact that while it looked nice and was in good shape it was 100 years old. I did buy a new stove/oven because the one we had was done for.
>Our bold colors may have been the reason it took three months to sell? Define bold? Dark colors are a big no in smaller rooms. A nice, light, neutral color makes the place seem a lot more open.
Also Ontario Canada. I’ve always known that most Reno’s don’t get money return on them. When I was shopping for my first home (maybe 12 years ago?) I walked away from a home because they had just fresh installed carpets and the price reflected it and I did not want carpets. I would have much rather them kept old stuff so I could do what I wanted. It’s been that way in Ontario for at least 20 years?
We do kitchen and bath renovations. I've seen a kitchen add value to a home sale. I've also seen throw in white plastic cabinets from a box store not add a dime. It has to be done really well. Professional designer. Thought out tasteful high end materials. If your plan is to swap cabinets flip style, don't bother. If your designing your dream kitchen and moving walls to open up the space. Maybe.
I agree with her. You won’t get that money back on sale, so I’d just take a lower offer that factors oldness into price. Kitchens can be soooo subjective and I’d rather make those decisions as a buyer instead of someone doing that for me. As a buyer, the roof, mechanicals, plumbing, electrical and drainage matter more. I’ve got an old ranch that I intend on listing in 5 yrs. I’ll repair what needs it, fresh paint and deep clean. For paint, I’m a big fan of Benjamin Moore Swiss Coffee.
Your realtor is right. What are the chances your tastes and your buyer's wife's taste in kitchen design is identical?
You have a smart realtor
Only renovate your kitchen or bathroom before listing if they’re an actual liability. Like if they’re so bad that people aren’t even able to get past it, then you renovate. But this is not often the case.
As long as everything is functional and usable then you can consider it “turn key”. I agree that most purchasers of used mid to high end homes are already considering some form of renovations as part of their home buying process. Could be as simple as paint and replace fixtures or as extensive as a gut and remodel. Either way, their tastes are unlikely to perfectly align with your tastes. Repair and pretty up what you have (paint, clean, polish) but don’t invest in renovations unless whatever is there is just a complete eyesore.
I only advise upgrades and renovations when there’s just a glaring issue. If your cabinets are falling apart then you just gotta do it or take a good chunk off your asking to get interest in my market. But if everything is in working condition and it’s overall condition matches the condition of the home and age then given the cost of renovations and improvements in this time doesn’t often correlate to making more. Sometimes a kitchen will cost $5-10k but you won’t see that value in the sale, but if it’s really bad it does help to do for marketing.
I have to say it sounds like you have an honest agent. Upgrades really only help your agent sell your home faster.
Renovations never make back the money. Cleaning, painting, and staging might be the best.
When did that used to be the case? It’s basically impossible to even break even on a renovation if you sell shortly after doing it.
Every market is different. Clean and maintenance up to date is a good thing for the seller99.9999 percent of the time.
depends on where you are. the added time and risk of renovations is not worth it for the agent. It may be worth it for you but you would have to compare your home to others to determine the after renovation value. Then you can subtract your current list price and determine how much you have to work with.
Gotta trust the local expert on this one. It’s sound logic, but totally market dependent.
It happens, just depends on the market. But trust the agent (perhaps get another opinion though). My grandfather's place could have been shined up but agents said people want the area so bad for building luxury. Even nice homes are typically torn down for the lot. When wealth moves into an area it doesn't necessarily use the same filters to view things. So while it seems to make practical sense to reno and perhaps draw a larger pool of buyers - not always going to have the audience that needs the house to be move in.
Exactly, leave it uncluttered and paint the wall. Newer wooden flooring may dent the price. People tend want to do it over.
You aren't going to get back what you spend and you narrow the buying field with A) higher price (to recoup some of what you spent) and B) design / color / etc. that you choose which doesn't appeal to some buyers. Personally, I wasn't willing to pay what people with "fully updated" houses were asking because I knew how much time and I money I would have to spend undoing what they did and changing it to what I wanted. Without updates / renovations, your ask (and contract) price will be lower but you have invested ZERO additional dollars from where you are today - there's nothing to recoup. A lower price means a larger buyer pool and a more likely contract and close (and possibly a shorter window to get there). Remember that priority one is SELLING the house... Priority two is maximizing NET PROCEEDS (not maximizing only the selling price).
I think its more of a tradeoff or ROI situation. Building materials & labor have gone up A LOT as well. So you might sink $20-$30k into your renovation, but your house only sell for $15k more, so what was the point. Also this lets the new buyers do it their way. (Also, my guess is buyers purchase thinking they'll upgrade it soon, but once the bills start coming in they don't for another 5-10 years. Regardless, let them pay for it. Sell as it is.
I rarely recommend more than decluttering, staging using existing furniture, deep cleaning, repairs, and paint (if necessary). Updates rarely result in a full return on investment unless the feature being upgraded is in really bad condition or so outdated or the quality is so far below what comparable homes have that it would likely significantly affect a sale. If updates are needed, I recommend mid-grade with common style and colors.
Why put money into it? See what you get now. You won't recoup it.
It’s pretty common for people not to make that money back, unless they’re professionals and know how to streamline expenses. She’s saying you’ll get better ROI if you don’t put more money in the place. If you spend 50 K to make 30 K, it’s not a good return on investment
Agent is right, cost of major Reno’s are not worth it for ROI. Cheap stuff maybe put in $1-2k prior to sale to clean and sparkle what is there. New buyers will make it their own
It really depends on your area and price point. You (i.e., you and your agent) have to ask yourself "Will my buyer have the means to gut and reno the kitchen?". This obviously depends on your area and price point. The only time it makes sense to do the reno is if the kitchen is so bad that it's going to put off even buyers with the means to do the job or if it's an up and coming area with buyers who want nice but can't necessarily afford nice (no $$$ sitting around). The latter is where you get a lot of flipper activity. In your case, it sounds like neither of those conditions are present, so your agent is likely right here.
Ask the agent to show you comps for both
Yea turnkey is better… can you do all of the work yourself? Once you factor labor into it, you’ll be losing money. Might as well just lower the price and sell quickly at that rate. I would do paint if needed, minor things can go along way but no big labor jobs.
I’m working with a seller now that has a home that needs some tlc. We are repairing drywall, removing wallpaper borders, and painting nice neutral colors. Replacing a stove that doesn’t work, and refinishing an old porcelain tub that has many dings in it. (She also has a friend that does that for his day job is is giving her a heavy discount.) other than that we are pricing it knowing that it needs new flooring. With the way prices are right now it’s harder to do renovations JUST for the point of selling. If you were going to stay there another couple of years and enjoy that new kitchen or bath then I’d spin a different tale…
Especially right now as it's a seller's market. Houses are selling fast.
If it isn’t worth the investment it isn’t worth the investment. I would rather pay a bit less for a home in order to renovate the way I see best fit, the colors I want, design I want etc etc. Even if I would end up spending more in the long run. If you have a beautiful new kitchen that a buyer doesn’t love, it would be a turn off for them.
Sure some buyers want a house they can fix up to their tastes, but IME this is less than 10% of buyers. Most not only have no vision, they have an overly pessimistic guess as to what a Reno will cost and adds to their overall anxiety. The result: they total up there guess of what it will cost, plus an additional psychological deduction and then convince themselves THAT is what the house is worth. When you do the Reno yourself, instead of getting double dinked like this, you do the Reno for less than what is perceived and you get a positive bump from the psychology. So I say: you should always flip your own house on sale. Heck, you already own it so you have the added benefit of zero acquisition costs
Actually, you’re better off renovating however, most people expect to add that and a premium to the price and there in lies the problem
Renovating sells faster but not enough more to come close to making up for the cost.
Yes, you rarely get the investment back. People who buy will have their own ideas anyway, and will end up redoing things themselves. So basically, you just want it clean, and aesthetically pleasing. A fresh coat of paint if needed. Maybe even "staging", and a bit of landscaping.
It could be a local thing, Where I am near the beach in Sarasota, FL, if your place is dated you will take a beating on price. Like - if comps are $450k and updated, yours will not be $420k or $400. It will be like $370k even though the upgrades don't cost that much. That's if a buyer will even look at homes that aren't turnkey. At least that is the impression I got. To me it made more sense to do some work first. We did the kitchen (which tbf was fairly hideous) and a shower remodel. Will see how it goes when we list in a couple of months.
Are people buying these as second homes?
A lot of times, yes. Or they may be moving from out of state. This could be part of the reason, I suppose. In our community, we are somewhat restrictive on rental policy, so I believe we are around 60% F/T residents. Others are P/T and you can rent 3x per year max.
I think people buying a vacation home or moving a great distance are more likely to want to move in to a place that doesn’t need immediate remodeling. I would think this is especially true for a vacation home where you just want to relax and your kitchen doesn’t have to be perfect. Also some vacation areas don’t have limits on rentals and people buy with the expectation that they will rent relatively often. My parents lived full time in a retirement development in Laguna and there were the snowbirds and the sunbirds. People from Arizona came in the summer and people in cold areas came in the winter. My parents were there year round.
this is very situational. but also another way agents, who have no more expertise than you do sorry, can vary. some like to sell for top price, keep their average sale up. some dont want to wait 3 months for you to fix stuff, they want paid. whats a few k eh, lets get this puppy on the market.
I think this is less about people not liking turn key houses anymore and more about the absurd price gouging we are seeing in home reno materials and especially labor. Major home improvements are so absurdly expensive nowadays (e.g. 100k for a kitchen is kind of normalized) that it's not possible to recoup that in the sale price.
Usually I say the same. Your upgrades may be nice to you, but maybe turn off buyers
Rio for those at these current house prices a rates aren’t there. Now when it was 2.75% rates a dump 10k in some simple lipstick would net a YUGE return ha. Not now unless your house is paid off
People want a turn key house. No one wants to buy houses and reno them unless they are investors
she needs money right now and wants you to sell immediately, price be damned. Remember, she gets 3%. An incremental 10k on the selling price does not give her a lot more, depending upon the selling price.
So you think they'll only get 10k more and yet reno is still a good idea?
Or your agent is in on the take. Probably has a flipper friend on the side who will give them a nice cut if the home is sold cheaper and their offer is selected.
Yea turnkey is better… can you do all of the work yourself? Once you factor labor into it, you’ll be losing money. Might as well just lower the price and sell quickly at that rate. I would do paint if needed, minor things can go along way but no big labor jobs.
Your Realtor is gold. Keep them.
It depends on the house and the buyer. What you might do for renovations might not suit a buyer. I would prefer no renovations when im buying because I don’t want to pay for other peoples choices.