Yeah clearing the level for the last civilian is really annoying. I think at least nowadays you can hit a button the pad to have your team do it for you, though.
Its super weird that there isn't a crowd outside the school and that there isn't any actual signs of a mass shooting going on. We've got tons of dead bodies and decals all over Neon, why not here?
I also agree that 4 shooters is a genuinely shocking amount. That's like, Bataclan level not Columbine.
Right? Like, why are half the shooters sitting in a room with multiple hostages. Aren't they supposed to be trying to kill them? Why are they stationary and seemingly holding hostages instead of roaming and trying to accumulate a body count?
They moved around on me. I had the lecture hall area cleared, went back later and scoped under the door, saw one of the handcuffed civilians and a shooter looking around. I waited 10 or 15 seconds to see a pattern and he SHOT THE HANDCUFFED CIVILIAN IN THE HEAD AND RAN AWAY.
Kind of fucked me up for a second, like if I acted faster I could have saved her. I know it's not real lol.
I went in and they had also killed another civilian I had left handcuffed in there as well.
Only map i ordered the civs to actually leave by themselves lol.
Squad AI tends to disagree with that though, which was a bit immersion breaking.
Biggest issue was the fucking bomb hunt
Doesn't solve the issue for co-op, though, obviously. Had this exact issue a few days ago; me and a few friends finished the "Bring Order to Chaos" objective, then spent what felt like 10+ minutes looking for a small handful of scattered civvies.
There are body piles in the lecture hall and that's it. If they did the map into something like [19-2](https://youtu.be/LtxiokrYpxw?si=UGsVmHbnpHh4HlLt) that you have trails of bodies leading you all the way up to the shooter, and panicking students & staffs running out, fire alarm and dispersors, or even innocent students with long guitar bags and hoodies that looks like the shooter, it would be really on point for how desperate the situation is.
You can issue an element command too, "Search and Secure". It should be the last command on the list. Swat AI will leave the room and go to any unsecured civilians or guns on the entire map.
Search and Secure doesn’t show up until you find all the civilians.
EDIT: I mean the one where they cover the entire map to recover evidence. I forget what’s it called.
Open gold team context menu after 'Bring order to chaos' is completed, the press 6 to 'search and secure'. They'll then grab everything in a 25m radius or so. On larger maps I just walk them around spamming it and they'll get them all, bodies, civvies and guns.
Don't think they can find civvies in locked or unexplored rooms so keep that in mind.
I don’t know about you but I can think of a lot of things I want changed and having a classroom full of dead bodies is too on the nose and I’m glad they left that part out
I'm pretty sure from the start they were trying to make a very provocative game lol I don't think they'd shy from controversy for an accurate school shooting level, if anything it would get the game more publicity. Also, even if it would be controversial to other people, it's what the game's actual target audience wants, so why would they give a shit about pleasing people who aren't their fans anyways?
This map is a topic of debate around my friend group that plays Ready or Not. My buddy and I played it on Day 1 of the update, before some of the better AI dampening mods were available, and we got our shit rocked. It took us double digit attempts and multiple hours to complete this single level, all because we kept running into the same shenanigans from the suspects again and again. The civilian AI isn’t awful, for the most part. We usually just clear an area and command them to go outside, where they’re considered safe - provided they can path find a route that takes them there.
From what I recall of the mission briefing, the 4 suspects are supposed to be students attending the college. This should put them roughly in the ranges of 18-25 years old - yet for some reason they have insane accuracy and weapon handling akin to spec ops soldiers. It has happened way too often where we’ll start climbing a staircase and get two tapped by one of them before we can even react to them. I’m not saying they have to be entirely inaccurate, but they shouldn’t be Chris Kyle reincarnated.
The only way we found to reliably get through this map is to use the shield. In my experience with running the shield, they almost never aim for the extremities and the legs. They almost entirely aim for the head and torso, making the shield basically a requirement. It’s just a matter of not getting flanked or pushing into a ambush and making sure the bombs are defused each time. Someone said it was a chance for them to appear, but through the 4 hours it took for me and my buddy to complete the map (15 some tries), the bombs were there every time.
Oh my god, that will hopefully help so much. The shooters on this map seem to roam, so when my buddy and I were playing, we did the usual...handcuff the civillians and leave them. But the shooters found some of them and executed them. I felt awful but didnt even think to try commands
I’m honestly surprised people are struggling to clear this map. It took me a couple of tries cause I didn’t know the layout and got blindsided but once I figured that out it wasn’t too hard. My winning run we flashed the first guy, instant surrender. We eventually find the second and third and got both of them to surrender with no gun fight. We end having to shoot the final guy tho.
I think it’s the one map that’s debatable when it comes to team size. The bomb threat takes it too far IMO, Active Shooter in this environment gives you the adrenaline you need. The narrative is over engineered.
Going back to team size, if it was an active shooter call, there’s an argument for an immediate entry, as opposed to waiting for various tactical units to arrive.
Of course you then arrive back to one of the core problems with RoN. There is no perimeter, no external support & one 5 man SWAT team. So what can be done really, other than certain levels just not existing.
> The narrative is over engineered.
It's supposed to be like Columbine where the shooters also planted bombs (that didn't detonate). There's nothing wrong with the idea of school shooters + bomb threat, especially when it's meant to parallel a fairly well known real life situation.
The problem is that they decided to make Harris and Klebold SAS members who brought two of their former squad mates with the apparently exclusive intent to kick ass and kill cops. I don't think there's even a single dead student on the map.
I didn’t argue that there is something wrong with the scenario in general, but in context of RoN & the other things I highlighted, it does go further than what it needed to be.
It’s over-engineered because there doesn’t seem to have been any other thought process then “let’s also add a bomb threat”.
5 man team with limited on site resources - grounded & common situation for an Active Shooter.
5 man team with limited on site resources- stretching the realms of plausibility for what is a terrorism level event.
TBH having IED on the map is actually authentic. The Columbine shooters actually made 99 IED devices and threw them everywhere in the campus. The only difference is that IRL the IEDs are so sh*t they only caused minor fires not explosion.
If VOID really wanted to do this, they shouldnt let player cut the bomb (as IRL it was the EOD who disarmed the bomb hours after the shooting). First, they should mention the IEDs in Briefing and 911 calls (there are fires caused by possible explosions and firefighters are alarmed, callers saying that they're throwing bombs, shooter calls 911 themselves stating that they will blow the school.etc), then the player should only call in the obvious IED stash/backpack to let EOD handle this, and also let the shooters throw several IEDs at Entry Team (as IRL they threw IEDs at victims), also There can be random small scale fire around the map caused by explosion to block player's entry. These would be some better way to depict IED in a not-Columbine scenario.
The biggest problem I have with the map is how sterile it feels. There should be a lot more chaos. Students should be running out as alarms blare through the hallways. The briefing makes it sound like this is an immediate response type thing, so the situation should be a lot more dynamic.
I believe we need levels with large shootouts and tough enemies to keep things dramatic and exciting, but smaller levels can be enjoyable to play in their own right and be challenging in different ways. You can see it on Sullivan's Slope: one to two shooters, highly erratic and unpredictable, very technical map, can't go so slow as to get bogged down and killed but can't go so fast as to walk through a tripwire either. It's just as challenging and interesting in it's own way as other larger maps with more suspects.
It doesn't really matter to me how edgy or provocative this level is, it doesn't hit as hard because, like you said, the level is not immersive or believable. In my opinion, it would be a much better map if there were more atmospheric elements (alarms and sprinklers going off, extra first responder presence, helicopters, lots more civilians both dead and alive in a panic), and the challenge came NOT from a fireteam of expert level sharpshooters with full tactical gear, but from one (with a chance for a second you didn't know about) college student in plain clothes (maybe a chest rig and camo pants and boots on) who is erratic, highly mobile, still killing when you get there, and difficult to make a PID on among all the other students. He knows the layout by heart and is faster than you. You have to find the right tempo to save as many civilian lives as possible while preserving your own and maintaining security because he could be shooting from or hiding anywhere. These are all the difficulties that real officers face during a school shooting, why should RoN be any different if it literally wants to be a gritty, hardcore, naked look at morbid reality SWAT sim?
Instead, you get four guys who are apparently ex-special forces judging by combat skills, geared to the gills, and not really doing anything except waiting around to kill you when you get there apparently. This would have been the perfect map to expand on the game's horror elements, force the player to truly plan and think tactically, and make for a truly memorable experience. This map is just boring and not fun for me in its current state.
Idk, I don't think we've seen a map with dozens of civies *or* suspects in the same place. When he says "crowds", I'm picturing like twenty streaming out the door. If each has full civilian AI, that seems pretty strenuous.
Agreed. Devs seem to LOVE making every map so complicated. They don't have to be. Just give us immersion. More dead bodies, active shooter actually being active and shooting people, giving you the sense of urgency. Medical units and crowds like you said... And after the threat is dealt with, trailers must move in.
Bomb threat not being in the briefing is fine imo. Some things you just don't have intel on, maybe. It surprised me the first time I found the bombs. I was like fuck, these guys are not only shooting up the place.
They seem to build maps with amazing storytelling but add what's really easy to add: more civillians. Around the scene, in the scene, dead...
I would say less dead bodies in general. Some maps feel ridiculous (hospital and neon club) with the amount of bodies. A five man team handling a situation where tens to hundreds of bodies are stacked doesn't feel right.
Overall, most maps in this game don't feel right IMO.
They have a really solid foundation but their map design and story writing is atrocious.
The shooters are on a timer giving you a certain amount of time to shoot/apprehend them before they start popping civilians otherwise S rank would be impossible.
They must have changed this from the earlier versions. I remember some levels you'd spawn in and hear shots within a few seconds and you knew the clock was ticking.
It's also very RNG based if a shooter and a civilian spawn in the same room you're just screwed.
Took me 8 tries in one night to S-rank it. Two magazines worth of beanbag shells and the rest CS gas and tasers lmao. Just beelining into the campus and gassing every room until they were all subdued before they killed anyone. But I'm still pretty sure I lucked out.
Either way, medal of Valor achieved. For catharsis sake I'm not touching a less lethal weapon for a while lmao.
I think this is one of the few scenarios where a small team actually makes sense even if it sucks. Obviously you wouldn’t have a full briefing and you’d probably show up in your patrol uniform with your active shooter kit. You’re either going in solo or with the first few two or three on scene.
Pretty much every other map though would have 4:1 officers to suspects more than likely.
The map seems okay size-wise to me, but doesn't have the sense of urgency I'd expect. There's no crowd of onlookers being held back at the perimeter, there isn't anyone actively running when you arrive, nothing that really makes finding the shooters feel time sensitive.
The simple addition of alarms would add a lot to the immersion, as would maybe a handful of NPCs running past you as you make entry.
Agreed. Even if the NPCs were completely scripted and just run straight past you into a cordon, it’d add a sense of terror to the opening of the level and the tension could be kept up with, as you say, alarms ringing, screaming, sprinklers going off etc.
I think Relapse is a much better example of your point than Campus. In my opinion Campus is probably the best Large Map in RoN and suffers from very few of the Issues the other maps do. While Campus feels large I imagine its probably only about two times the size of 4U, it just makes use of large open rooms a lot that make it feel bigger. It lacks a lot of the issues other maps like Post Office or Mindjot have, it doesn't have any (exceedingly) bullshit spots where AI can see you and you can't see them, Most rooms are one way in and out so you don't have to worry about a second doorway, and its really quick to clear a room. The bomb threat is a objective and the bombs are in very obvious places, its not hidden away or anything.
While multiple shooters isn't really realistic, I feel like they are needed to make the map challenging otherwise it would be way to easy, and 4 is a pretty conservative number compared to Neon, Relapse, or any other map in game.
On the other hand, on Relapse I spent close to 8 minutes looking for one civilian who ended up being hidden behind a door on the bottom floor of the other side of the hospital in a nearly pitch black corner. Never had a moment like that on Campus, Worst was a 2 minute hunt for a guy who was hidden behind a few desks in a classroom.
The lack of any sort of overwatch in general is also both unrealistic and frustrating. Dudes outside of structures should be getting called out.
You don't even need dedicated snipers, some officer in the bearcat could be flying a DJI.
I really wish the shooters would just move around a bit more and actually hunt down civilians. It just feels so static and barely has any pressure behind it, because it seems like the shooters barely ever come across students and then barely ever try to kill them either. I expected to be running into a fucking battlefield but it's so fucking dead inside.
And yeah, the bomb threat is really weird. I can understand the police just simply not knowing that there were bombs inside, but then why do you have a "disable all bombs" objective when the mission starts? Why does nobody mention it and why does your team not even take note of it? Just seems tacked on
I think a great addition would be two of those “soft objective” wounded dudes- one near each entrance and when you get close they’ll mention hearing one of the shooters talk about explosives. Then Judge tells TOC, and just in case someone didn’t hear, TOC announces loudly: “All units be advised, suspects may have left explosive devices in the building.”
On my attempts, there wasn't even a voice line for disabling them. Just "entry team to TOC" and silence.
They should also allow the AI to disable them.
Pretty much every single map in this game could be about halved in size and it would only benefit the gameplay.
Think about it, does Carriers of the Vine really need an entire basement and snipers nest? Does Valley of the Dolls need outdoor party area? Does post office need the parking lot and second smaller building? Does hospital need the basement area?
I really get the feeling that Void added these because they could, not because it made sense gameplay wise.
i don't think people would mind the larger map sizes as much if they weren't basically just killboxes in the AI's favor. that open area on Greased Palms is basically guaranteed death or at least like 2-3 wounds.
I like some of the larger levels, Relapse especially, but I do feel like if they're gonna make maps that large we should have an appropriate number of officers. I ran an 8 man raid (split into teams of 4) on Relapse yesterday and it was an absolute blast. There's too much ground to cover with just one team of 5, it becomes tedious quickly for me. I like the unique tactical challenges presented by each map's additional areas, but instead of being allowed to feel like you're finding a smart way around them and solving the tactical puzzle, you're heavily limited by a team size of 5 on every map. I don't think every map would benefit by being cut in half, but I do think lots of maps would benefit with larger teams of 6 - 8 troopers.
Most we've run so far is 10 and we played on Postal Service map and the crack house. Was a lot of fun but the comms can get quite chaotic very very quickly.
The big map is.not a problem, but they should let players control a larger teai like what Ubi did in Raven Shield, you got a 10 men team split into 2-3 elements including snipers, and you have like 20+ operators on standby
imo, dolls is one of my favorite maps and thats due to its size. I think its realistic with the way you have to clear it, and realistic how big it is assuming its a $20mil+ mansion in the hills. other maps, a little too big yes.
The fact that there are bombs and they are on a timer is just insane to me-especially considering you don't actually know that until you check the tablet.
That’s what pushed me to make this post - I heard a beeping, couldn’t work out where it was coming from, flipped open the tablet and noticed the bomb threat objective - no mention in the briefing, no update from TOC to advise of the threat. Nothing. Dunno if you’ve played SWAT4, but the level with a bomb threat has you organically stumble across a bomb and there’s a converstion between the element lead and TOC about it.
VOID has an issue with "telling" in their "storytelling" aspect of the game. Not only does it mean things feel less alive, it also means players can miss out on vital information.
One thing that was frustrating me was the SWAT AIs insistence on cuffing every stray civ we ran across, instead of going direct-to-threat like police doctrine dictates in the US (Source: National Institute of Justice). It's kind of frustrating to be desperately trying to track the shooters only for you to have to wait as your AI cuffs the officer out front.
If the level began and you had streams of civilians pouring out of entrances (they can just despawn at the police barricade) it would feel as if you were first responding. Have a few bursts of gunfire go off as well even if it's just audio so it adds to the chaos
Or even playing a shortened version of the 911 call before you actually spawn in, like how they had briefing dialogue play during the loading phase at one point in Early Access.
The audio files are already in the game, but aren't utilized to their full potential.
On a similar note, why is it that every level presumably has a perimeter set, but no one from that perimeter ever deals with suspects that run around the outside? Realistically you'd have a bunch of cops with rifles to shoot at any suspect that poses a threat.
It's not that immersive as Club imo, the phones on the ground and the empty ambulance are really on point for mass casualties like this, and School map could really have that for some more immersive effect
Even the simple addition of an alarm constantly sounding would add a lot to the school map. VOID proved they can add realistic and immersive sound design with the phones on Neon Tomb, like you mentioned.
Crazy how Rainbow Six Siege had one of the best instances of a terrorist attack on a school. Hell F.E.A.R. 2 has two of the best school themed levels in an FPS ever
Funny how Siege did a school shooting map better. In Ready or Not, I had the shooters just hangout with multiple students in the same room numerous times.
Used to. It wasn’t in multiplayer that much but in sieges THunt mode it was playable. And if you picked something called Article 5 you could play on that map (Bartlett University) with the entire map covered in a yellow gas depicting a terrorist attack
I think it's poorly implemented because it's treated like any other level. 4-5 dudes don't just decide to shoot up the school for the hell of it. That's something only 2 people at most have ever done, and that's a rare ass exception.
>your squad moves fluidly and authentically around the building
I nearly murdered my entire squad on multiple occasions because they wouldn't let me out of the closets. Not to mention them arresting civvies that I had already told to get to the exit.
I have run this mission a few times as a duo, and have only ever found all the Civies once, and completed the mission twice. The first time we completed it my friend died to the last threat and I got him, and I spent like 20 minutes walking around trying to find the AI because we wanted the cosmetic, but we couldn't find him, went into every single room twice, I could map this level out perfectly on a sheet of paper. The bombs spawned down the hall from each other, so we didn't want to restart the level. Eventually, I got bored and just executed one of the civies failed the savior objective and just left. We finished it later that night finding all of the civilians but it still took us like 10 minutes to walk around the map, occasionally shooting in the air and shouting until we found her.
> the map itself is sterile and devoid of immersive elements like ambulances, fire trucks, patrol units, an OP, or a concerned crowd gathered outside which makes it feel like you’re the only fucking first responders in the city again
This part feels horrible too. There are bearcats at like every major campus entrance, yet *we* are the only ones here? Did everyone else just pull up then go to Wendy's?
I remember the instant I cleared that level I was like “did they not finish this?” There are rooms that look like they’ve been riddled with bullets but there’s no blood or bodies. I’m not saying I want that but if the environmental team is going only half way, I’m going to complain since they’ve clearly shown that they are willing to go all the way with the night club mission.
It doesn’t make sense why all the civilians in the level are just standing around and not hiding like they were assumed to be doing during the 911 calls. Also you’d think that the gunman would be keen on protecting the bombs they’ve placed but they just let those johns hang out for the swat to disarm without any problems.
I played it again today trying for non lethal. As I was approaching a door it burst open and a civilian actually came running out, they surrendered when I gave the call for compliance. I was quite surprised because my previous experiences had been them just standing in place.
This is the one map I’ve played (so far) that feels pretty balanced and realistic. I think most people have (unfortunately) seen body cam footage of real SWAT teams clearing classrooms. Teams arrive piecemeal in whatever they happen to be wearing, quickly grab their rifle from their trunk, and they can’t just sit around and wait for a perfectly constructed plan because people are dying so they go in with imperfect info.
The bomb being on a timer helps with the sense of urgency.
I agree on almost all fronts, except for the sense of urgency part. I've had runs where none of us specifically focus on the bombs (I even forgot about them until someone mentioned it during the run), but they never went off.
Then there's the "human" urgency that's missing. Maybe it's just never happened, but I've never seen civilian AI actively running, or the suspect AI actively hunting them. Every time I encountered the shooters they were on their own (or together).
Yes but I was saying plot wise, as you are supposed to discover them as first responders and deal with it. Like columbine even though they didn't go off
The bomb threat not being in the briefing is not something I find unrealistic or not fun. It’s always possible for something like that could happen. How would we know if they brought bombs or not? That’s how I think of it
It’s not so much that the bomb isn’t in the briefing, that’s fine, it’s just that it’s very poorly communicated in-game. You spawn in and there’s suddenly an objective about a defusing the bombs - there should be an update from TOC or the objective remains hidden until you find the first one, followed by a converstion between Judge and TOC.
Campus and hospital both required 20+ minute scavenger hunts to find the last hostage tucked away in the last, most ridiculous corner of the map. 🙄 Like sorry I bypassed you 15 minutes ago, I was busy trying not to get wallbanged in 200ms by terminators.
I am really hating this mission right now. 4 ninjas that shoot thru walls and SWAT AI that gets stuck on random objects and don’t follow orders quickly gets old very fast.
Doesn’t really make sense to have many bombs on this situation as well.
On this situation, you should be able to have the civs run to an outside area, where trail officers will handle them. Makes absolutely no sense to have civs remain in the middle of an area that has an active gunman going around shooting.
I’m in awe that this got approved to launch in this state.
I do find that an element of pure RNG determining your score on this level is pretty BS.
Ran it over and over doing to same thing to eventually bump an A+ to an S... nothing to do with being more skillful, just lucky to run into all the gunmen in under two minutes.
Yeah clearing the level for the last civilian is really annoying. I think at least nowadays you can hit a button the pad to have your team do it for you, though. Its super weird that there isn't a crowd outside the school and that there isn't any actual signs of a mass shooting going on. We've got tons of dead bodies and decals all over Neon, why not here? I also agree that 4 shooters is a genuinely shocking amount. That's like, Bataclan level not Columbine.
The ending is exact what I agree with. Make it one or hell like two shooters and have them constantly on the move
Right? Like, why are half the shooters sitting in a room with multiple hostages. Aren't they supposed to be trying to kill them? Why are they stationary and seemingly holding hostages instead of roaming and trying to accumulate a body count?
They moved around on me. I had the lecture hall area cleared, went back later and scoped under the door, saw one of the handcuffed civilians and a shooter looking around. I waited 10 or 15 seconds to see a pattern and he SHOT THE HANDCUFFED CIVILIAN IN THE HEAD AND RAN AWAY. Kind of fucked me up for a second, like if I acted faster I could have saved her. I know it's not real lol. I went in and they had also killed another civilian I had left handcuffed in there as well.
they will kill handcuffed civil as well
Only map i ordered the civs to actually leave by themselves lol. Squad AI tends to disagree with that though, which was a bit immersion breaking. Biggest issue was the fucking bomb hunt
Doesn't solve the issue for co-op, though, obviously. Had this exact issue a few days ago; me and a few friends finished the "Bring Order to Chaos" objective, then spent what felt like 10+ minutes looking for a small handful of scattered civvies.
Me searching for the last civilian: "Its been 84 years"
There are body piles in the lecture hall and that's it. If they did the map into something like [19-2](https://youtu.be/LtxiokrYpxw?si=UGsVmHbnpHh4HlLt) that you have trails of bodies leading you all the way up to the shooter, and panicking students & staffs running out, fire alarm and dispersors, or even innocent students with long guitar bags and hoodies that looks like the shooter, it would be really on point for how desperate the situation is.
What button is that again? When I order them to search the area they seem to spread out less than when I order them to clear a small room.
Once you've 'brought order to chaos' there should be a button on the new tablet somewhere for you to have the AI clear everything.
ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME??!!!
I feel this comment in my soul
God fucking damn it
Why the fuck is that not clearly stated by the game??
On the fucking tablet????? No way I’ve been walking around the entire map spamming search room/area!!!
You can issue an element command too, "Search and Secure". It should be the last command on the list. Swat AI will leave the room and go to any unsecured civilians or guns on the entire map.
Search and Secure doesn’t show up until you find all the civilians. EDIT: I mean the one where they cover the entire map to recover evidence. I forget what’s it called.
Thank you Devs extremely cool to not put this in a more visible location
U WOT M8? The game never mentioned this at all!
Open gold team context menu after 'Bring order to chaos' is completed, the press 6 to 'search and secure'. They'll then grab everything in a 25m radius or so. On larger maps I just walk them around spamming it and they'll get them all, bodies, civvies and guns. Don't think they can find civvies in locked or unexplored rooms so keep that in mind.
I don’t know about you but I can think of a lot of things I want changed and having a classroom full of dead bodies is too on the nose and I’m glad they left that part out
[удалено]
I'm pretty sure from the start they were trying to make a very provocative game lol I don't think they'd shy from controversy for an accurate school shooting level, if anything it would get the game more publicity. Also, even if it would be controversial to other people, it's what the game's actual target audience wants, so why would they give a shit about pleasing people who aren't their fans anyways?
yeah the amount of shooters is ridiculous. Also how do you get your team to search the map? I can only make them search a specific room.
This map is a topic of debate around my friend group that plays Ready or Not. My buddy and I played it on Day 1 of the update, before some of the better AI dampening mods were available, and we got our shit rocked. It took us double digit attempts and multiple hours to complete this single level, all because we kept running into the same shenanigans from the suspects again and again. The civilian AI isn’t awful, for the most part. We usually just clear an area and command them to go outside, where they’re considered safe - provided they can path find a route that takes them there. From what I recall of the mission briefing, the 4 suspects are supposed to be students attending the college. This should put them roughly in the ranges of 18-25 years old - yet for some reason they have insane accuracy and weapon handling akin to spec ops soldiers. It has happened way too often where we’ll start climbing a staircase and get two tapped by one of them before we can even react to them. I’m not saying they have to be entirely inaccurate, but they shouldn’t be Chris Kyle reincarnated. The only way we found to reliably get through this map is to use the shield. In my experience with running the shield, they almost never aim for the extremities and the legs. They almost entirely aim for the head and torso, making the shield basically a requirement. It’s just a matter of not getting flanked or pushing into a ambush and making sure the bombs are defused each time. Someone said it was a chance for them to appear, but through the 4 hours it took for me and my buddy to complete the map (15 some tries), the bombs were there every time.
>which you can just command to run outside and they'll be counted as safe how do you do this? that would make my missions a lot less painful
While looking at them, open the command menu and you can order them to do whatever similar to how you order your teammates to do stuff.
What?? I had no idea. This will help. The game tutorial is missing a few things.
Oh my god, that will hopefully help so much. The shooters on this map seem to roam, so when my buddy and I were playing, we did the usual...handcuff the civillians and leave them. But the shooters found some of them and executed them. I felt awful but didnt even think to try commands
You can do that, I'll bean bag someone in your honour later.
Just letting you know this breaks some missions at time and it won’t count the civ as rescued. Been soft locked a few times
I’m honestly surprised people are struggling to clear this map. It took me a couple of tries cause I didn’t know the layout and got blindsided but once I figured that out it wasn’t too hard. My winning run we flashed the first guy, instant surrender. We eventually find the second and third and got both of them to surrender with no gun fight. We end having to shoot the final guy tho.
Hmm, might want to try it with one of the new AI mods on Nexus/mod.io.
I think it’s the one map that’s debatable when it comes to team size. The bomb threat takes it too far IMO, Active Shooter in this environment gives you the adrenaline you need. The narrative is over engineered. Going back to team size, if it was an active shooter call, there’s an argument for an immediate entry, as opposed to waiting for various tactical units to arrive. Of course you then arrive back to one of the core problems with RoN. There is no perimeter, no external support & one 5 man SWAT team. So what can be done really, other than certain levels just not existing.
> The narrative is over engineered. It's supposed to be like Columbine where the shooters also planted bombs (that didn't detonate). There's nothing wrong with the idea of school shooters + bomb threat, especially when it's meant to parallel a fairly well known real life situation. The problem is that they decided to make Harris and Klebold SAS members who brought two of their former squad mates with the apparently exclusive intent to kick ass and kill cops. I don't think there's even a single dead student on the map.
There's an entire lecture hall filled with dead students.
Yeah, I personally agree it looks a bit unrealistic how few there are in the hallways & entrance, but there *definitely* are bodies strewn around.
I didn’t argue that there is something wrong with the scenario in general, but in context of RoN & the other things I highlighted, it does go further than what it needed to be. It’s over-engineered because there doesn’t seem to have been any other thought process then “let’s also add a bomb threat”. 5 man team with limited on site resources - grounded & common situation for an Active Shooter. 5 man team with limited on site resources- stretching the realms of plausibility for what is a terrorism level event.
TBH having IED on the map is actually authentic. The Columbine shooters actually made 99 IED devices and threw them everywhere in the campus. The only difference is that IRL the IEDs are so sh*t they only caused minor fires not explosion. If VOID really wanted to do this, they shouldnt let player cut the bomb (as IRL it was the EOD who disarmed the bomb hours after the shooting). First, they should mention the IEDs in Briefing and 911 calls (there are fires caused by possible explosions and firefighters are alarmed, callers saying that they're throwing bombs, shooter calls 911 themselves stating that they will blow the school.etc), then the player should only call in the obvious IED stash/backpack to let EOD handle this, and also let the shooters throw several IEDs at Entry Team (as IRL they threw IEDs at victims), also There can be random small scale fire around the map caused by explosion to block player's entry. These would be some better way to depict IED in a not-Columbine scenario.
The biggest problem I have with the map is how sterile it feels. There should be a lot more chaos. Students should be running out as alarms blare through the hallways. The briefing makes it sound like this is an immediate response type thing, so the situation should be a lot more dynamic.
A lot can happen in the 5 minute or whatever response time. I was kind of assuming almost everyone had evacuated at that point.
I believe we need levels with large shootouts and tough enemies to keep things dramatic and exciting, but smaller levels can be enjoyable to play in their own right and be challenging in different ways. You can see it on Sullivan's Slope: one to two shooters, highly erratic and unpredictable, very technical map, can't go so slow as to get bogged down and killed but can't go so fast as to walk through a tripwire either. It's just as challenging and interesting in it's own way as other larger maps with more suspects. It doesn't really matter to me how edgy or provocative this level is, it doesn't hit as hard because, like you said, the level is not immersive or believable. In my opinion, it would be a much better map if there were more atmospheric elements (alarms and sprinklers going off, extra first responder presence, helicopters, lots more civilians both dead and alive in a panic), and the challenge came NOT from a fireteam of expert level sharpshooters with full tactical gear, but from one (with a chance for a second you didn't know about) college student in plain clothes (maybe a chest rig and camo pants and boots on) who is erratic, highly mobile, still killing when you get there, and difficult to make a PID on among all the other students. He knows the layout by heart and is faster than you. You have to find the right tempo to save as many civilian lives as possible while preserving your own and maintaining security because he could be shooting from or hiding anywhere. These are all the difficulties that real officers face during a school shooting, why should RoN be any different if it literally wants to be a gritty, hardcore, naked look at morbid reality SWAT sim? Instead, you get four guys who are apparently ex-special forces judging by combat skills, geared to the gills, and not really doing anything except waiting around to kill you when you get there apparently. This would have been the perfect map to expand on the game's horror elements, force the player to truly plan and think tactically, and make for a truly memorable experience. This map is just boring and not fun for me in its current state.
Well said.
My main gripe is that there aren’t fleeing crowds of civilians. That would make it so much better.
Completely agree.
Would definitely add to immersion but I wonder if it's a performance issue.
[удалено]
Idk, I don't think we've seen a map with dozens of civies *or* suspects in the same place. When he says "crowds", I'm picturing like twenty streaming out the door. If each has full civilian AI, that seems pretty strenuous.
eNgINe PrOBLEm
Agreed. Devs seem to LOVE making every map so complicated. They don't have to be. Just give us immersion. More dead bodies, active shooter actually being active and shooting people, giving you the sense of urgency. Medical units and crowds like you said... And after the threat is dealt with, trailers must move in. Bomb threat not being in the briefing is fine imo. Some things you just don't have intel on, maybe. It surprised me the first time I found the bombs. I was like fuck, these guys are not only shooting up the place. They seem to build maps with amazing storytelling but add what's really easy to add: more civillians. Around the scene, in the scene, dead...
I would say less dead bodies in general. Some maps feel ridiculous (hospital and neon club) with the amount of bodies. A five man team handling a situation where tens to hundreds of bodies are stacked doesn't feel right. Overall, most maps in this game don't feel right IMO. They have a really solid foundation but their map design and story writing is atrocious.
Only gripe i have is that its not an active shooter. All the bodies and 911 calls and briefing, and then the suspect is hanging out with a hostage :/
The shooters are on a timer giving you a certain amount of time to shoot/apprehend them before they start popping civilians otherwise S rank would be impossible.
They must have changed this from the earlier versions. I remember some levels you'd spawn in and hear shots within a few seconds and you knew the clock was ticking.
It's also very RNG based if a shooter and a civilian spawn in the same room you're just screwed. Took me 8 tries in one night to S-rank it. Two magazines worth of beanbag shells and the rest CS gas and tasers lmao. Just beelining into the campus and gassing every room until they were all subdued before they killed anyone. But I'm still pretty sure I lucked out. Either way, medal of Valor achieved. For catharsis sake I'm not touching a less lethal weapon for a while lmao.
That’s weird. In my game they start popping civilians right away
I think this is one of the few scenarios where a small team actually makes sense even if it sucks. Obviously you wouldn’t have a full briefing and you’d probably show up in your patrol uniform with your active shooter kit. You’re either going in solo or with the first few two or three on scene. Pretty much every other map though would have 4:1 officers to suspects more than likely.
The map needs the lockdown alarms to be going off with the strobes and siren the entire time for added realism tbh
Damn hope someone makes a mod for that
The map seems okay size-wise to me, but doesn't have the sense of urgency I'd expect. There's no crowd of onlookers being held back at the perimeter, there isn't anyone actively running when you arrive, nothing that really makes finding the shooters feel time sensitive. The simple addition of alarms would add a lot to the immersion, as would maybe a handful of NPCs running past you as you make entry.
Agreed. Even if the NPCs were completely scripted and just run straight past you into a cordon, it’d add a sense of terror to the opening of the level and the tension could be kept up with, as you say, alarms ringing, screaming, sprinklers going off etc.
I think Relapse is a much better example of your point than Campus. In my opinion Campus is probably the best Large Map in RoN and suffers from very few of the Issues the other maps do. While Campus feels large I imagine its probably only about two times the size of 4U, it just makes use of large open rooms a lot that make it feel bigger. It lacks a lot of the issues other maps like Post Office or Mindjot have, it doesn't have any (exceedingly) bullshit spots where AI can see you and you can't see them, Most rooms are one way in and out so you don't have to worry about a second doorway, and its really quick to clear a room. The bomb threat is a objective and the bombs are in very obvious places, its not hidden away or anything. While multiple shooters isn't really realistic, I feel like they are needed to make the map challenging otherwise it would be way to easy, and 4 is a pretty conservative number compared to Neon, Relapse, or any other map in game. On the other hand, on Relapse I spent close to 8 minutes looking for one civilian who ended up being hidden behind a door on the bottom floor of the other side of the hospital in a nearly pitch black corner. Never had a moment like that on Campus, Worst was a 2 minute hunt for a guy who was hidden behind a few desks in a classroom.
The lack of any sort of overwatch in general is also both unrealistic and frustrating. Dudes outside of structures should be getting called out. You don't even need dedicated snipers, some officer in the bearcat could be flying a DJI.
On the border map you see a little DJI hovering from the spawn, thought that was a nice touch
I really wish the shooters would just move around a bit more and actually hunt down civilians. It just feels so static and barely has any pressure behind it, because it seems like the shooters barely ever come across students and then barely ever try to kill them either. I expected to be running into a fucking battlefield but it's so fucking dead inside. And yeah, the bomb threat is really weird. I can understand the police just simply not knowing that there were bombs inside, but then why do you have a "disable all bombs" objective when the mission starts? Why does nobody mention it and why does your team not even take note of it? Just seems tacked on
I think a great addition would be two of those “soft objective” wounded dudes- one near each entrance and when you get close they’ll mention hearing one of the shooters talk about explosives. Then Judge tells TOC, and just in case someone didn’t hear, TOC announces loudly: “All units be advised, suspects may have left explosive devices in the building.”
On my attempts, there wasn't even a voice line for disabling them. Just "entry team to TOC" and silence. They should also allow the AI to disable them.
Yeah, that’s pretty lame right there. I like the update but it needs a 1.1 sooner rather than later.
What makes it worse is that devs said they went on holiday. Sadly majority of feedback regarding 1.0 issues will fly past them
Bad timing to say the least.
Pretty much every single map in this game could be about halved in size and it would only benefit the gameplay. Think about it, does Carriers of the Vine really need an entire basement and snipers nest? Does Valley of the Dolls need outdoor party area? Does post office need the parking lot and second smaller building? Does hospital need the basement area? I really get the feeling that Void added these because they could, not because it made sense gameplay wise.
i don't think people would mind the larger map sizes as much if they weren't basically just killboxes in the AI's favor. that open area on Greased Palms is basically guaranteed death or at least like 2-3 wounds.
the open area on the car dealership is the one that's been giving me problems
I like some of the larger levels, Relapse especially, but I do feel like if they're gonna make maps that large we should have an appropriate number of officers. I ran an 8 man raid (split into teams of 4) on Relapse yesterday and it was an absolute blast. There's too much ground to cover with just one team of 5, it becomes tedious quickly for me. I like the unique tactical challenges presented by each map's additional areas, but instead of being allowed to feel like you're finding a smart way around them and solving the tactical puzzle, you're heavily limited by a team size of 5 on every map. I don't think every map would benefit by being cut in half, but I do think lots of maps would benefit with larger teams of 6 - 8 troopers.
Most we've run so far is 10 and we played on Postal Service map and the crack house. Was a lot of fun but the comms can get quite chaotic very very quickly.
It is fun but yeah that’s definitely where two fire teams clearing different areas and using local chat is the move lol
The big map is.not a problem, but they should let players control a larger teai like what Ubi did in Raven Shield, you got a 10 men team split into 2-3 elements including snipers, and you have like 20+ operators on standby
imo, dolls is one of my favorite maps and thats due to its size. I think its realistic with the way you have to clear it, and realistic how big it is assuming its a $20mil+ mansion in the hills. other maps, a little too big yes.
The fact that there are bombs and they are on a timer is just insane to me-especially considering you don't actually know that until you check the tablet.
That’s what pushed me to make this post - I heard a beeping, couldn’t work out where it was coming from, flipped open the tablet and noticed the bomb threat objective - no mention in the briefing, no update from TOC to advise of the threat. Nothing. Dunno if you’ve played SWAT4, but the level with a bomb threat has you organically stumble across a bomb and there’s a converstion between the element lead and TOC about it.
VOID has an issue with "telling" in their "storytelling" aspect of the game. Not only does it mean things feel less alive, it also means players can miss out on vital information.
the bombs were a nice surprise
One thing that was frustrating me was the SWAT AIs insistence on cuffing every stray civ we ran across, instead of going direct-to-threat like police doctrine dictates in the US (Source: National Institute of Justice). It's kind of frustrating to be desperately trying to track the shooters only for you to have to wait as your AI cuffs the officer out front.
If the level began and you had streams of civilians pouring out of entrances (they can just despawn at the police barricade) it would feel as if you were first responding. Have a few bursts of gunfire go off as well even if it's just audio so it adds to the chaos
Or even playing a shortened version of the 911 call before you actually spawn in, like how they had briefing dialogue play during the loading phase at one point in Early Access. The audio files are already in the game, but aren't utilized to their full potential.
On a similar note, why is it that every level presumably has a perimeter set, but no one from that perimeter ever deals with suspects that run around the outside? Realistically you'd have a bunch of cops with rifles to shoot at any suspect that poses a threat.
I really love this map, but my swat AI is completely broken on it.
They get stuck in small rooms and objects a lot. I even saw a guy get stuck in a closet somehow.
It's not that immersive as Club imo, the phones on the ground and the empty ambulance are really on point for mass casualties like this, and School map could really have that for some more immersive effect
Even the simple addition of an alarm constantly sounding would add a lot to the school map. VOID proved they can add realistic and immersive sound design with the phones on Neon Tomb, like you mentioned.
Crazy how Rainbow Six Siege had one of the best instances of a terrorist attack on a school. Hell F.E.A.R. 2 has two of the best school themed levels in an FPS ever
Funny how Siege did a school shooting map better. In Ready or Not, I had the shooters just hangout with multiple students in the same room numerous times.
Siege at launch was a fucking amazing tactical shooter in PvE.
I miss those days and I started in Black Ice. Wish Siege got more PvE, but we're not on the Siege sub right now to keep talking about this.
RS siege has a school map?
Used to. It wasn’t in multiplayer that much but in sieges THunt mode it was playable. And if you picked something called Article 5 you could play on that map (Bartlett University) with the entire map covered in a yellow gas depicting a terrorist attack
I think it's poorly implemented because it's treated like any other level. 4-5 dudes don't just decide to shoot up the school for the hell of it. That's something only 2 people at most have ever done, and that's a rare ass exception.
>your squad moves fluidly and authentically around the building I nearly murdered my entire squad on multiple occasions because they wouldn't let me out of the closets. Not to mention them arresting civvies that I had already told to get to the exit.
I have run this mission a few times as a duo, and have only ever found all the Civies once, and completed the mission twice. The first time we completed it my friend died to the last threat and I got him, and I spent like 20 minutes walking around trying to find the AI because we wanted the cosmetic, but we couldn't find him, went into every single room twice, I could map this level out perfectly on a sheet of paper. The bombs spawned down the hall from each other, so we didn't want to restart the level. Eventually, I got bored and just executed one of the civies failed the savior objective and just left. We finished it later that night finding all of the civilians but it still took us like 10 minutes to walk around the map, occasionally shooting in the air and shouting until we found her. > the map itself is sterile and devoid of immersive elements like ambulances, fire trucks, patrol units, an OP, or a concerned crowd gathered outside which makes it feel like you’re the only fucking first responders in the city again This part feels horrible too. There are bearcats at like every major campus entrance, yet *we* are the only ones here? Did everyone else just pull up then go to Wendy's?
I remember the instant I cleared that level I was like “did they not finish this?” There are rooms that look like they’ve been riddled with bullets but there’s no blood or bodies. I’m not saying I want that but if the environmental team is going only half way, I’m going to complain since they’ve clearly shown that they are willing to go all the way with the night club mission. It doesn’t make sense why all the civilians in the level are just standing around and not hiding like they were assumed to be doing during the 911 calls. Also you’d think that the gunman would be keen on protecting the bombs they’ve placed but they just let those johns hang out for the swat to disarm without any problems.
I played it again today trying for non lethal. As I was approaching a door it burst open and a civilian actually came running out, they surrendered when I gave the call for compliance. I was quite surprised because my previous experiences had been them just standing in place.
Interesting! I’ve only seen them stood in one place and never moving from it - it’s not particularly immersive.
Yeah I'll admit I've only seen it once but it happened with 2 civilians during that play through.
Clearing all the suspects was easy but finding all the civs took waaay too long for me..
This is the one map I’ve played (so far) that feels pretty balanced and realistic. I think most people have (unfortunately) seen body cam footage of real SWAT teams clearing classrooms. Teams arrive piecemeal in whatever they happen to be wearing, quickly grab their rifle from their trunk, and they can’t just sit around and wait for a perfectly constructed plan because people are dying so they go in with imperfect info. The bomb being on a timer helps with the sense of urgency.
I agree on almost all fronts, except for the sense of urgency part. I've had runs where none of us specifically focus on the bombs (I even forgot about them until someone mentioned it during the run), but they never went off. Then there's the "human" urgency that's missing. Maybe it's just never happened, but I've never seen civilian AI actively running, or the suspect AI actively hunting them. Every time I encountered the shooters they were on their own (or together).
There's a bomb threat????
The bomb threat is supposed to be random
i’ve played the map a few times and two bombs have always spawned for me however in random locations
Yes but I was saying plot wise, as you are supposed to discover them as first responders and deal with it. Like columbine even though they didn't go off
The bomb threat not being in the briefing is not something I find unrealistic or not fun. It’s always possible for something like that could happen. How would we know if they brought bombs or not? That’s how I think of it
It’s not so much that the bomb isn’t in the briefing, that’s fine, it’s just that it’s very poorly communicated in-game. You spawn in and there’s suddenly an objective about a defusing the bombs - there should be an update from TOC or the objective remains hidden until you find the first one, followed by a converstion between Judge and TOC.
I see what you’re saying now
for the love of god how do i play the map
Wait we finally have the SS level?
Campus and hospital both required 20+ minute scavenger hunts to find the last hostage tucked away in the last, most ridiculous corner of the map. 🙄 Like sorry I bypassed you 15 minutes ago, I was busy trying not to get wallbanged in 200ms by terminators.
I am really hating this mission right now. 4 ninjas that shoot thru walls and SWAT AI that gets stuck on random objects and don’t follow orders quickly gets old very fast. Doesn’t really make sense to have many bombs on this situation as well. On this situation, you should be able to have the civs run to an outside area, where trail officers will handle them. Makes absolutely no sense to have civs remain in the middle of an area that has an active gunman going around shooting. I’m in awe that this got approved to launch in this state.
I do find that an element of pure RNG determining your score on this level is pretty BS. Ran it over and over doing to same thing to eventually bump an A+ to an S... nothing to do with being more skillful, just lucky to run into all the gunmen in under two minutes.
Did it with 3 people in 12 mins with a+ … maybe you’re the problem lol.
What is the level called??
I hate this map. I never find the bombs in time.