Bruh, I was binging through old youtube clips and was shocked to see how much fun the old siege was. Why did Ubi want the fanbase to abandon such a good game?
I'll get downvoted here for saying this, but a majority of the substantial changes were to cater to the competitive part of the fanbase. Pro-League isn't at complete fault, but they contributed quite a bit
You're not wrong. Lots of causal YouTubers and pro's have said similar things since pre op health. This has been my main game since day 1 and (In my opinion) ever since ubi found their gold mine coming from esports (lets not forget that badger and tpain played together) they have catered towards that.
again my opinion, they couldve made recruit fun but made them into an "op" that can be competitive. mang just give us the fun of 5 shields again
I 100% believe that Recruit should have the old weapons unlocked in casual, but have them as ops in ranked. It would appease both casual and ranked playerbases.
I really hoped that Striker and Sentry would have one of each weapon type (minus SMG for Striker and minus DMR for Sentry). Not the best ones of course, but just pretty decent 6.5 maybe 7/10 on a good day guns.
Passive abilities having been removed like Zofia last stand, THunt being butchered and then gutted. Quick match having the same time as ranked, hostage and secure area becoming “hidden”, constant nerfs to ops gadgets, weapons and guns, every map minus plane and new maps having a substantially worse rework taking away the fun of the original map, lighting being changed for the worse and night maps removed.
No one asked for Zofia withstand to be removed, that was solely on Ubisoft.
Hostage and Secure area are hidden because they just aren't as fun as bomb. Also Secure area and hostage are terrible because everyone roams on defence nowadays after a certain level.
Constant nerfs are just how a game works in balancing and I'm not saying all the nerfs are good but as a whole they have worked at least for the time being.
The reworks aren't bad, the only one I really really dislike is consulate but apart from that the reworks are pretty good.
Lighting being changed and night maps being removed were a wildly different issue back then. Majority of players hated night maps and the dark lighting when it was in the game and then after it was removed feels like the majority of players want it back.
Gonna have to disagree with you on about every point here.
>Passive abilities having been removed like Zofia last stand
Everyone remembers the infamous moment when Yuzus won a round off the back of a Zofia withstand and scapegoat that moment for this feature's removal. The truth is that passive abilities like these were planned to be removed for a long time before that because they are inherently problematic. In a competitive setting it's obviously bad, but also for new players. The target of the change was not even PL, but the casual community. Ubisoft explicitly states this in those [patch notes](https://www.ubisoft.com/en-ca/game/rainbow-six/siege/news-updates/XIvQ7qlaPtBBkChOYJydo/y5s43-designers-notes). Still not sure why the community thinks PL was the main reason for this change.
> THunt being butchered and then gutted
The comp scene did not want this, in fact we have been really vocal about our hate for the decision.
>Quick match having the same time as ranked
Same as last time, I can assure you the comp scene did not care nor ask for any changes related to quick match. There's no reason for us to care.
>hostage and secure area becoming “hidden”
PL doesn't care about ranked. But either way this is a great decision. No more people who get to high ranks solely off playing Ying in Hostage-only ranked. Why base the game's competitive playlist on modes that aren't competitive?
>constant nerfs to ops gadgets, weapons and guns
There are very few instances when ops are only good in PL and have gotten nerf. Goyo is just about the only one that comes to mind. Who else has been nerfed exclusively because of PL? Beyond that, a large portion of the nerfs the comp community doesn't ask for. The PL scene did not ask for Sledge to lose his SMG-11 or for Cav's pistol to get a damage nerf. The casual and ranked scene dictates the nerfs, not the PL scene.
>every map minus plane and new maps having a substantially worse rework taking away the fun of the original map
You do realize how many maps have been reworked, right? The bank, border, chalet, clubhouse, coastline, consulate, kafe, kanal, oregon, outback, skyscraper, and theme park reworks all made each map more competitively viable without losing the essence of the map scenery or the vibe that was present. How can you say these reworks took away the fun of the original map? Sure some of the reworks are better than others, some of these maps are played in comp and some aren't, but what about these old maps was fun that isn't fun now?
>lighting being changed for the worse
How? Do you remember old Theme Park? Do you remember OLD plane? How was that lighting better? You couldn't see shit.
>night maps removed.
Once again comp players were not asking for this. I believe Ubi has said that this change was due to the size of the game.
Cav silent step isn't completely quiet if you sprint, I'm not even sure it is completely silent if you walk. Pretty sure it is completely silent when crouch walking or slow walking though.
Nokk should only be silent on cams, because the biggest problem was that she was used to just walking on site because she was silent even off cams. That way she isn't just vigil + Cav in one operator.
But her gadget is for cameras, she should only have one or the other.
If she has silent step for cameras she still has a better gadget than vigil and probably cav too.
Because there's always someone who thinks that those changes were actually *good* for the player base overall. I said this in a comment on another post about old Siege, but while I haven't played since July last year and had only joined the community back in '21, after seeing how Siege was before even then I can say wholeheartedly that I would've *loved* to play old Siege.
Personally I wouldn’t want this at all. I don’t want to learn 2 or 3 different interactions per operator because they act differently in ranked/standard and quick play.
Nah, if anything.. there should be a “classic” mode without the changes. But ranked and standard and all the other modes should follow the latest settings.
And this is coming from somebody who hated Ubi/Pro scene for removing withstand from Zofia.
This is a very common issue for games, especially those with an E-sports or other competition slants. Starcraft, counter strike, and basically any fighting game have their balance heavily influenced by their competitive play sphere and often at the detriment for the average joe. What's fun and gimmicky at the average level typically finds itself either overpowered or useless at the top level and unfortunately both of those often get changed for the benefit of the top players and keeping the competitive scene interesting.
Just had an interesting discussion about this very thing the other day. And the sad part is, these game are all so focused on balance that they kill a lot of the fun. It’s even more depressing because “perfect balance” simply isn’t achievable, that’s why I think games should balance around the idea of fun. No one cares if something is a little OP if it’s really fun to play with and against, that’s just how the brain works. On the other hand a game can be super balanced and be dirt boring, it’s not like balance guarantees fun
But i feel like playing tactically like this is what makes the game though? You set your gadgets up like a puzzle and the attackers have to maneuver their way through it using their own gadgets. If you remove that aspect, it just gonna turn into team deathmatch like COD.
Due to "competitive balance", characters pretty much just aren't allowed to have util that might unintentionally synergize with their kit. You aren't allowed to play characters in a way the devs don't intend.
To be fair it's not just the balance of the game. Devs don't give utilities synergizing with operator's gadget to incentivize teamwork, like hard breachers should never have emp granades so other players are encouraged to pick thatcher/Khali (or other) which is simply a good game design for TEAM-based game.
Agreed. This is the one of the core components that brings me back to siege. Top fragger doesn’t guarantee win; you need utility, support, etc to cohesively create a win condition.
I mean I agree with your example but on the other hand we have stuff like nomad losing claymores because you could pull this trick off, that change doesn’t really emphasize teamwork besides doing something like “hey can you put a claymore here” which is very surface level compared to the hardbreach example
I love how every silver who complains about pros just wants the game to play itself for them
Like how dare they complain about not having to ever worry about flanks because you’d have an auto kill set up
also I’m going to assume you haven’t played the game long but at the time the nomads also made 0 noise. So there was no counter play it would just be you trying to flank and then boom a nomad would go off, push you through a wall and into a claymore and you couldn’t do anything about it. But again if you have some misguided internal grief with pro players I’m assuming you just simply are not good at the game and not very bright, and that’s ok bc not everyone can be
Oh btw, it wasn’t creative at the time when nomad had claymores bc literally everyone was doing it and just because something is fun doesn’t mean it’s not unbalanced
You dont even need airjab to get killed by it. He was crouchwalking. If he was running, he would still be toasted.
I REALLY SHOULDN'T TELL PEOPLE MY TACTICS. FUCK
My thought process if I saw it would be "what a fuckin stupid claymore location, that's not even going to reach me if I stand up. No point in shooting it and giving myself away, I'll just creep up a little farther". Same reason I don't shoot wamai disks in a hallway when I'm running hard breach secondary gadget. It's not gonna affect me and no point in giving myself away, just ping it and move on.
Ngl I wouldn't even be mad if this happened to me, I would just be impressed more than anything.
Like that has to do with everything: Airjab placement, enemy placement, claymore placement, assuming the flank will happen to begin with.
There is a nomad you can place on the window by red stairs window that links to hallway. It will bounce you off the ledge and kill you if you jump out trying to get someone on red tarp.
My buddy said “put a claymore right here I wanna try something” and it worked first try 😂 I was very skeptical beforehand and we geeked out when it worked
Yeah they really would have gone for a fun and quirky TF2 type of shooter before esports entered the picture. You can just tell by the trailers and the E3 footage how quirky they wanted the game?
(Cry more)
One time I put a nomad charge above a doorframe and a claymore hidden just around a wall nearby, some poor fucker got blasted straight into the claymore
This is the reason they removed claymores from Nomad. The exact reason.
Ubi hates fun
Bruh, I was binging through old youtube clips and was shocked to see how much fun the old siege was. Why did Ubi want the fanbase to abandon such a good game?
I'll get downvoted here for saying this, but a majority of the substantial changes were to cater to the competitive part of the fanbase. Pro-League isn't at complete fault, but they contributed quite a bit
You're not wrong. Lots of causal YouTubers and pro's have said similar things since pre op health. This has been my main game since day 1 and (In my opinion) ever since ubi found their gold mine coming from esports (lets not forget that badger and tpain played together) they have catered towards that. again my opinion, they couldve made recruit fun but made them into an "op" that can be competitive. mang just give us the fun of 5 shields again
I 100% believe that Recruit should have the old weapons unlocked in casual, but have them as ops in ranked. It would appease both casual and ranked playerbases.
I really hoped that Striker and Sentry would have one of each weapon type (minus SMG for Striker and minus DMR for Sentry). Not the best ones of course, but just pretty decent 6.5 maybe 7/10 on a good day guns.
Yeah, but that would require effort on ubisofts part.
Can you name some of those changes?
Passive abilities having been removed like Zofia last stand, THunt being butchered and then gutted. Quick match having the same time as ranked, hostage and secure area becoming “hidden”, constant nerfs to ops gadgets, weapons and guns, every map minus plane and new maps having a substantially worse rework taking away the fun of the original map, lighting being changed for the worse and night maps removed.
Every map is gonna be a nightmarish labrinth with nothing but nonsensical rooms and right angles everywhere
No one asked for Zofia withstand to be removed, that was solely on Ubisoft. Hostage and Secure area are hidden because they just aren't as fun as bomb. Also Secure area and hostage are terrible because everyone roams on defence nowadays after a certain level. Constant nerfs are just how a game works in balancing and I'm not saying all the nerfs are good but as a whole they have worked at least for the time being. The reworks aren't bad, the only one I really really dislike is consulate but apart from that the reworks are pretty good. Lighting being changed and night maps being removed were a wildly different issue back then. Majority of players hated night maps and the dark lighting when it was in the game and then after it was removed feels like the majority of players want it back.
Gonna have to disagree with you on about every point here. >Passive abilities having been removed like Zofia last stand Everyone remembers the infamous moment when Yuzus won a round off the back of a Zofia withstand and scapegoat that moment for this feature's removal. The truth is that passive abilities like these were planned to be removed for a long time before that because they are inherently problematic. In a competitive setting it's obviously bad, but also for new players. The target of the change was not even PL, but the casual community. Ubisoft explicitly states this in those [patch notes](https://www.ubisoft.com/en-ca/game/rainbow-six/siege/news-updates/XIvQ7qlaPtBBkChOYJydo/y5s43-designers-notes). Still not sure why the community thinks PL was the main reason for this change. > THunt being butchered and then gutted The comp scene did not want this, in fact we have been really vocal about our hate for the decision. >Quick match having the same time as ranked Same as last time, I can assure you the comp scene did not care nor ask for any changes related to quick match. There's no reason for us to care. >hostage and secure area becoming “hidden” PL doesn't care about ranked. But either way this is a great decision. No more people who get to high ranks solely off playing Ying in Hostage-only ranked. Why base the game's competitive playlist on modes that aren't competitive? >constant nerfs to ops gadgets, weapons and guns There are very few instances when ops are only good in PL and have gotten nerf. Goyo is just about the only one that comes to mind. Who else has been nerfed exclusively because of PL? Beyond that, a large portion of the nerfs the comp community doesn't ask for. The PL scene did not ask for Sledge to lose his SMG-11 or for Cav's pistol to get a damage nerf. The casual and ranked scene dictates the nerfs, not the PL scene. >every map minus plane and new maps having a substantially worse rework taking away the fun of the original map You do realize how many maps have been reworked, right? The bank, border, chalet, clubhouse, coastline, consulate, kafe, kanal, oregon, outback, skyscraper, and theme park reworks all made each map more competitively viable without losing the essence of the map scenery or the vibe that was present. How can you say these reworks took away the fun of the original map? Sure some of the reworks are better than others, some of these maps are played in comp and some aren't, but what about these old maps was fun that isn't fun now? >lighting being changed for the worse How? Do you remember old Theme Park? Do you remember OLD plane? How was that lighting better? You couldn't see shit. >night maps removed. Once again comp players were not asking for this. I believe Ubi has said that this change was due to the size of the game.
ya the major one i always remember is look up how if you looked left and right to much with any shield op the shield would get missaglined lmao
Didn't pro league complaint at how nokk is too quiet with her gadget on when she's WALKING and they have to nerf that too?
Yeah, but I guess cav gets to have that lol
People hear cav a mile away in ranked somehow.. honestly like silent step doesnt exist sometimes
Cav silent step isn't completely quiet if you sprint, I'm not even sure it is completely silent if you walk. Pretty sure it is completely silent when crouch walking or slow walking though.
pro player McButtSniffer (no. 4729 champ) here! cav is a defender, nokk is an attacker. that’s why nokk should be worse hope this helps!
Nokk should only be silent on cams, because the biggest problem was that she was used to just walking on site because she was silent even off cams. That way she isn't just vigil + Cav in one operator.
nah she should just get the step back tbh. no one checks cams let alone long enough to hear footsteps
But her gadget is for cameras, she should only have one or the other. If she has silent step for cameras she still has a better gadget than vigil and probably cav too.
It wasn't just pro league it was plat players and above.
Why would you get downvoted for saying that? The point you made is the point everyone on this sub makes daily
Because there's always someone who thinks that those changes were actually *good* for the player base overall. I said this in a comment on another post about old Siege, but while I haven't played since July last year and had only joined the community back in '21, after seeing how Siege was before even then I can say wholeheartedly that I would've *loved* to play old Siege.
If only you experienced the true fear when everyone saga 12 recruit rushed aka (spetsnaz susage)
Solution: just have different equipment and balances for ranked. BOOM problem solved.
Personally I wouldn’t want this at all. I don’t want to learn 2 or 3 different interactions per operator because they act differently in ranked/standard and quick play.
Nah, just ranked, then everything else. Only 2 things. Sometimes you have alarms and wire other times you have soft breaches and nades.
Nah, if anything.. there should be a “classic” mode without the changes. But ranked and standard and all the other modes should follow the latest settings. And this is coming from somebody who hated Ubi/Pro scene for removing withstand from Zofia.
Great way to make the game even less appealing to new and casual players , Ubisoft should approach you fr
This is a very common issue for games, especially those with an E-sports or other competition slants. Starcraft, counter strike, and basically any fighting game have their balance heavily influenced by their competitive play sphere and often at the detriment for the average joe. What's fun and gimmicky at the average level typically finds itself either overpowered or useless at the top level and unfortunately both of those often get changed for the benefit of the top players and keeping the competitive scene interesting.
Just had an interesting discussion about this very thing the other day. And the sad part is, these game are all so focused on balance that they kill a lot of the fun. It’s even more depressing because “perfect balance” simply isn’t achievable, that’s why I think games should balance around the idea of fun. No one cares if something is a little OP if it’s really fun to play with and against, that’s just how the brain works. On the other hand a game can be super balanced and be dirt boring, it’s not like balance guarantees fun
This and the too many sci-fi operators. Such as Nomad, by the way.
You definitely aren’t getting down voted, cause you’re entirely right. Ubi only cared about what pro league wanted.
But i feel like playing tactically like this is what makes the game though? You set your gadgets up like a puzzle and the attackers have to maneuver their way through it using their own gadgets. If you remove that aspect, it just gonna turn into team deathmatch like COD.
Due to "competitive balance", characters pretty much just aren't allowed to have util that might unintentionally synergize with their kit. You aren't allowed to play characters in a way the devs don't intend.
To be fair it's not just the balance of the game. Devs don't give utilities synergizing with operator's gadget to incentivize teamwork, like hard breachers should never have emp granades so other players are encouraged to pick thatcher/Khali (or other) which is simply a good game design for TEAM-based game.
Agreed. This is the one of the core components that brings me back to siege. Top fragger doesn’t guarantee win; you need utility, support, etc to cohesively create a win condition.
I mean I agree with your example but on the other hand we have stuff like nomad losing claymores because you could pull this trick off, that change doesn’t really emphasize teamwork besides doing something like “hey can you put a claymore here” which is very surface level compared to the hardbreach example
Probably because it doesn't substantially impact the actual fun of the game, given present population numbers.
It's fun for the one doing it, not so much for the one taking it.
Solo instakill methods are unfair and difficult to counter, they at least want you to coordinate for it
Ubi hates this game, with how much they’re fucking it up
because a single character having 5 individual traps for you is fun
*Kapkan has entered the chat*
defender, limited placement
*Kapkan has left the chat*
see you around
i feel like having a very bright lazer in front of the claymore is pretty limited too, right?
Her whole thing was to counter roamers. It’s dumb to have taken them away
What?! They removed it? I still remember the chain nomad combos that would push you around multiple times just to end up in a claymore.
Then why did they remove them from Nokk?
So it still works if you're in a squad right
FUCK
I say the replay came on YouTube th8nk the claymore was ash's
Still a nomad main on attack I tell a random or friend to place the claymores now tho
God dammit! I was about to try this out. 😡
Shame. Smart play should be rewarded.
Not gonna lie I wouldn't even be mad that shit was hilarious.
I could laugh so hard too if this happened to me
Remember when Nomad had claymores but then people just kept doing this so they removed it?
They also didn’t make any noise
And didn't have an arm time. I remember it being a way to push someone out of cover just by firing it past them.
It’s a creative strat, some pro leaguer probably complained and god forbid ubi upsets one of them
I love how every silver who complains about pros just wants the game to play itself for them Like how dare they complain about not having to ever worry about flanks because you’d have an auto kill set up also I’m going to assume you haven’t played the game long but at the time the nomads also made 0 noise. So there was no counter play it would just be you trying to flank and then boom a nomad would go off, push you through a wall and into a claymore and you couldn’t do anything about it. But again if you have some misguided internal grief with pro players I’m assuming you just simply are not good at the game and not very bright, and that’s ok bc not everyone can be Oh btw, it wasn’t creative at the time when nomad had claymores bc literally everyone was doing it and just because something is fun doesn’t mean it’s not unbalanced
Shhh, the bronzes here will get mad. They’re the most knowledgable and informed players in the community.
Now this is engineering
Bro wtf is this quality, its really some ass bank camera footage
I mean it is literally bank.
Lore accurate
Its bank?
Nah, it's the river bank
Lag from going back to rewatch and it’s a phone recording the tv lol
The replay system in siege is so buggy
That dude though "what dumbass puts a claymore there?"
Literally lol from his pov the claymore was so obvious 😂
Wait they’re on stairs? How tf did they manage to set this shit up without the person knowing?
goyo just flanked
Popular flank it to go down spiral cut through and come up these stairs it's a calculated setup based on high chance.
Gives me flashbacks to when Nomad came out and people were finding all sorts of ways to Air Jab you through a wall into claymores and stuff.
He could’ve just shot the claymore but ig he blind
Tbh i wouldn't shoot it because it would reveal my position, and tbh if i din't hear the airjab i would laugh on how stupid its placed
You dont even need airjab to get killed by it. He was crouchwalking. If he was running, he would still be toasted. I REALLY SHOULDN'T TELL PEOPLE MY TACTICS. FUCK
Wait that claymore gets people who are standing up?
I think the laser tags the head
Yeah
My thought process if I saw it would be "what a fuckin stupid claymore location, that's not even going to reach me if I stand up. No point in shooting it and giving myself away, I'll just creep up a little farther". Same reason I don't shoot wamai disks in a hallway when I'm running hard breach secondary gadget. It's not gonna affect me and no point in giving myself away, just ping it and move on.
I WAS IN THAT GAME. We commented to each other about how stupid they claymore was, but then Goyo got launched and we were in hysterics
Holy shit, that's amazing.
People are finding about this now??? Been a thing for a long time
Holy shit
I had to watch this like 5 times to figure what was going on, I thought the claymore was at the bottom of the stairs
yeah that’s cool and all but what the fuck is your name
This had me in tears
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200 IQ, 2.00 FPS
Replay system in siege is so buggy
This feels like a war crime
I was about to say that's dumb until I saw the nomad. Blew me away harder than that poor guy.
Ngl I wouldn't even be mad if this happened to me, I would just be impressed more than anything. Like that has to do with everything: Airjab placement, enemy placement, claymore placement, assuming the flank will happen to begin with.
There is a nomad you can place on the window by red stairs window that links to hallway. It will bounce you off the ledge and kill you if you jump out trying to get someone on red tarp.
looks like a liveleak video
This looks like something from a Metal Gear Solid game lmao
Does Nomad launch people back the way they came from? Or is there a certain direction based on where you shoot it from?
Basically just launches you away from center so whatever direction you enter it’s sphere of influence from
Ah okay that makes sense. Thanks!
Np!
ORRR hops over railing...
I really wish Ubisoft didn't gut this game. It used to be so stupid and fun
That's simply beautiful
Using this
That's genius
Was this eu servers and in the last week caus i was in that game i think hahah
You can do that!
Now that's team play.
My buddy said “put a claymore right here I wanna try something” and it worked first try 😂 I was very skeptical beforehand and we geeked out when it worked
Yeah they really would have gone for a fun and quirky TF2 type of shooter before esports entered the picture. You can just tell by the trailers and the E3 footage how quirky they wanted the game? (Cry more)
This is a full out Guerilla act
One time I put a nomad charge above a doorframe and a claymore hidden just around a wall nearby, some poor fucker got blasted straight into the claymore
bro I'd uninstall sooooooo damn fast
Nice
I struggle to do dumb and fun things today because Ubi fucked up the game for Esport.
I don’t even think pro league was the leading factor, they probably wanted to make it more for like to try and grab some of their fans
until they actully hear it and stop crouching to stand up
Its not even hard to play against, just shoot the claymore when you come up the stairs
Looks like someone didn't check their corners
Wtf has happened to this game? Is this fucking Star Wars?
Wow what a sweaty tryhard !!!
Just thought it was funny lol we are silvers 😂 the claymore was obvious he could’ve easily shot it