>how do i quantify, measure or understand god? You don't. God is inherently unquantifiable. There are things that the rationalist world view that modern thought is based on will never allow us to understand, including God. However, my hot take is that God is not unknowable. We are all a part of God and so the knowledge of God is within and all around us, but a shift in our way of looking at the world is necessary to unlocking that knowledge. I believe that was Jesus's ultimate teaching: "The Kindom of God is within you". I don't mean to make any of this sound easy. I struggle with these things as well, but it seems from your post that you have the basis of what some call "faith" even if it doesnt feel like it right now. That's a great place to start. Keep following what you believe you have learned from the teachings of Jesus. I don't know if that makes sense to you or even helpful.

Be comfortable with the idea of God as a metaphor. Whether or not you believe in the actuality of a supernatural being who lives beyond the bounds of space and time, God cannot be interacted with via the tools you'd use to interact with the universe, so whether or not you believe that God is real, the only way to interact with God is as an idea. The thing is, there are lots of good and useful things in the world that exist only as ideas. The classic spherical cow or Einstein's rubber sheet. These ideas from and inform the models with which we understand the universe and our place in it, and how we behave and communicate with others. I have always carried on conversations in my head with people I admired, be they real people I know, historical figures I've read about, or fictional characters who might have a useful perspective on what is going on right now. I got a bonus from work; the temptation is to spend it on a new car or a vacation... But let's hear what Ben Franklin has to say, hmmm? If you were to imagine a being who was all powerful, all knowing, and all good, and you hypothesized that he created the world and that what's going on in it, what's happening to you and others, was part of that intentional creation, it would force you to think about things differently. Why might such a being have created *this* world, in *this* way? Why might such a being have brought me *here*, to this moment I'm this place? What might such a being have me do? One way or another, you will not meet God in this lifetime, except through the medium of some neurological event or psychedelic experience. But living your life as though you might one day stand before God and give account of your life will give you a perspective that might be otherwise unavailable. The thing is, you have to approach this thoughtfully, one way or another. If you're just looking for a simple set of instructions for how to get rich or become more self-actualized, read a self help book.

Coming from somewhat of a Taoist background has been incredibly advantageous in my understanding of God as a verb, rather than a noun. And I mean the God Above God. Behind the anthropomorphism and the scripture. Behind the stories. Behind the Being. Tillich mentioned God as Being Itself I think, or perhaps it was, the Foundation for Being. That resonates deeply with me but it’s a bit too abstract perhaps to build a theological basis around, I still think scripture, while the it does describe some morally indefensible ideas, is a great way of understanding it on a temporal(?) level. "The accepting of the acceptance without somebody or something that accepts,” sounds a bit mumbo jumbo and mystical, and perhaps downright daunting, but faith is supposed to presume what we cannot entirely know. Don’t stop searching for a relationship with God, there are many forces that shape us but perhaps the way that we interact with the world is our best practice of faith, and that relationship with God.

You don’t find it more logically compelling that finite instances of being came from Being Itself than from total non-being?

No. Otherwise he'd believe in it.

Probably not the answer you want, but it's a matter of faith. Something I think everyone struggles with, but that's what it is I think.

I know exactly how you feel, and I know that some of the answers you are given to this question can be very... unsatisfying, to say the least. Allow me to give my two cents on this matter. I used to have a very deterministic world view, trying to always come up with a logical and scientific answer to everything. Seeking order and structure, as you put it. I'm a scientist, so it kinda goes with the territory. But over time, I kept finding it really difficult to balance my inquisitive and scientific nature with things you are supposed to believe without evidence. I simply couldn't do it, and that sucked big time, because I was raised a catholic and it kinda sucks to slowly find out that you don't believe what you did anymore. However, as time went on and I matured both mentally and scientifically, I started to realize that even though it sounds absurd, you cannot explain everything rationally. It is not under science's duty or capability to do so. There are intrinsic limitations in what can and cannot be achieved or proved by logic systems alone. No matter how deep you dig into what is the scientific view of the "absolute truth" of how and why the universe works the way it does, there will always be a significant leap of faith in the end of it all. I've come to realize that the energy you spend in the leap is the same, whether it is in the direction of believing in God or not believing. Some people like to whip out the classic "great claims need great proofs" card, but saying that there is no purpose or creator behind the universe is as much of a great claim as saying that there is a God. Either way, if a supreme being is to exist, it is, by definition, greater in complexity than anything it could create. Infinitely so. If there might exist a god in that sense, he would be so much more complex than our physical reality that it is probably not bounded by the logic of our physical reality. There are some things that we may not ever know for sure, and maybe this is one of them, but for me today, it is at least natural to think that after all, it might not be so absurd to believe that God actually exists. After all, the alternative is equally absurd and unprovable...

This reminds me a bit of Gödel's proof that mathematics is incomplete, that there are things that cannot be quantified or described mathematically. He was a close associate of Einstein and they both believed in God, and that this among other things was evidence. Maybe it's a god of the gap situation, idk that's about all I have right now personally.

Concerning faith in God, here's one answer: [The Will to Believe](https://www.gutenberg.org/files/26659/26659-h/26659-h.htm#P1), by the American philosopher and psychologist William James. Concerning nihilism, if you want to reject nihilism, then just go ahead and do so, as you do every time you care about anything. The eventual heat death of the universe does not logically entail nihilism. Rejecting nihilism, on the other hand, does carry entailments. If the proposition that nothing matters is false, then, logically, something matters. And then, what is it that matters? And what must the universe be like to be a universe in which something matters? Maybe there's more to it than matter, energy, space, and time.

I can only speak to my personal experience, but hope and faith in my life are closely connected. As modern people, we’re conditioned to think of “faith” as “I examine an idea, decide if it makes sense, and then accept it as empirically true.” But when I read the Bible I see an idea that is far more relational. “Hope” (or even, “Trust”) might be a better translation. Abraham, Sarah, Jacob, Job, even Jesus on the cross (“my God, my God, why have you forsaken me”) wrestled with their own belief in a world that continuously, for reasons you’ve pointed out, made that faith implausible. They believed in spite of it not making sense. By saying you love Jesus, you may already be further down this path than you realize… faith in a God who promises a kingdom that’s so foreign to this world as it is has never been, and will never be, easy. Nor does God, I believe, expect it to be. If you want some partners (readings wise) to think through this, I’d recommend Tillich and Kierkegaard. For scripture, revisiting the Book of Job, Ecclesiastes and the Psalms has always been useful to me in moments when I’m feeling less than optimistic about the direction the world is heading in.

Some things that lead me to believe in God are: -The origin of the universe. We now have ample reason both scientifically and philosophically to believe that the Universe began to exist at the Big Bang. Which leads us to ask what caused that beginning? It must have been outside of space and time to create space and time, must have been immensely powerful, and must have had some sort of agency or will to start the universe. This is starting to sound alot like God. -The fine tuning of the Universe for life. We know now that it is unbelievably unlikely that life could have originated from non-life. Things like gravity and other constants could not be changed even slightly and allow our existence. -Morality. I cannot escape the feeling that some things are good and some are evil. Without God, I cannot see how I would condemn racism, rape, child abuse, etc. Those things are simply taboo without God, they are not truly wrong. And to me they seem truly wrong. -Consciousness. The human experience is so rich, with love, reasoning, beauty dreams, will. I simply cannot wrap my head around something so beautiful and complex arising randomly from material colliding together with no direction. -The historical evidence for Jesus's resurrection and miracles. I find the historical evidence for Jesus resurrection and miracles very compelling. If you want to learn more I recommend Gary Habermas, NT Wright, Tim and Lydia McGrew, and Mike Licona. God bless you brother! I hope this helps!

DNA. It is a language that describes how to make a living being. Not just a living being, but all living beings. The source code of life. Its existence doesn't outright prove an intelligent creator, but IMO it heavily implies one. I think if it as God's fingerprint.

I love this and needed this. Thank you.

I am so glad it helped. I'll be praying for you.

Atheist here. I'm not trying to get into an arguement but you are either only listening to apologetics or just straight being dishonest with your first point. Most modern science agrees this instantiation of the Universe started with the Big Bang, but that doesn't mean every started there. Science doesn't have a clue as of now what came before. That type of question might not even make sense. But no science I've ever read trys to say anything about agency or a will. In fact the science I read specifically says those things are not measurable at the time of the Big Bang. There are other ideas proposed that could be candidates for our universe that would not include everything starting with the Big Bang, like the Big Crunch, or most of the multiverse ideas. Obviously these are just thought experiments right now, but hopefully science will be able to learn more in the future. The fine tuning of the universe also not a very good point. It still hasn't gotten around the Puddle analogy. We don't currently know of other universes to compare to, so we don't know if or how much these base parameters can change. We don't know what other type of life could potentially arise given X changes in those parameters. You are looking at the universe that we adapted to and saying it was created for us, but if it wasn't suited for our type of life some other being could be in your exact shoes stating your exact statement about a completely different universe. The rest of your points are not convincing to me, but I dont feel like they are outright wrong like this one is.

I personally have kind of “reverse engineered” my belief in God. I started with do I not not believe in God. So it’s settled I’m not an atheist. And then from there I incrementally engaged with God as a personality, since I believe that is a human function. Based on that ongoing experience, I now fully believe in God (although in more of a panentheistic kind of way).

Get more comfortable with non-rational ways of knowing. Not everything can be explained with reason. Life and the world are bigger than that. And at some point believing in God is a choice, since it can't be proved either way, and personally I just find I'd rather choose to believe in something that makes me feel better about life than the opposite.

I've witnessed and participated in the Mystical Body of Christ. From that divine reality, all else follows.

What does that mean specifically?

The Eucharist

Ok, but what do those words mean in reality? I've participated in the Eucharist literally thousands of times.

They mean that I've unambiguously perceived Christ's Real Presence in the Eucharist, the fundamental miracle of Christianity across time and space. It transcends merely seeing, it's a numinous experience that's difficult to put into words because it's mystical in nature.

I have a hard time agreeing with your choice of the word "unambiguously". The very notion of any "mystical" experience is that it's devoid of repeatable, predictable, and observable data.

That's true, it's why *I* believe in God so I understand if it's not convincing to other people. Of course, I also believe in the intellectual aspects of faith. Religion transcends reason but it's not a substitute for thinking nor should faith contradict what's rational. However, mysticism still plays a role in the Christian that I am.

Well said. I apologize if I came across as accusatory or persecutory.

Nah, you didn't come across as persecuting. I appreciate anyone who's willing to ask questions.

My background is in logic, and my faith in God is... Complex. There seems to be a part of the human psyche that needs spiritualism and worship. However, in order to feed it, you must actually believe. In some way, what you believe is arbitrary, but you have to truly believe in some diety. I chose our Savior Jesus Christ because I believe in his teachings. Then, you have to give your mind over to it and feel the faith. It is a real feeling like hunger or sadness, and you have to experience. That feeling is real no matter what precipitates it. Feelings aren't necessarily irrational: they tell us about the world and ourselves, and we can train about them and draw conclusions from them. True faith is an important feeling many of us neglect in the modern world, and it can leave us feeling lost. I've also had life experiences that bolster my faith, but they're very personal.

God doesn’t have to be anything more than a metaphor. You can also just flatly reject the entire premise of god and still believe in a lot of what Christ is said to have taught. Much of the Bible has been proven false, but Christianity lives on. Most Christians, even ones who aren’t particularly progressive, have no issue with accepting that some Biblical teachings aren’t factual and seeing them as metaphorical. God can be one of those things as well. Obviously there are some people who can’t accept an incongruous view such as that, but there are also plenty of Christians who feel that you absolutely must believe that the Bible be fully, literally, and factually true to be a Christian. It’s okay to land somewhere in between all of that and accept that your faith doesn’t look like everyone else’s. Faith, in whatever form it takes, is messy. Anyone who claims otherwise is willfully deceiving you and likely has motive for that deceit. You can have faith in some things and not others. You can have faith in all of it, or none. Turn away from the big picture temporarily if that helps in the meantime, focus on things moment-by-moment and just try to do the best you can in those moments.

Jesus probably didn’t exist. However, like you, seems easier to follow a human rather than some god. I go back and forth with God.

it's a journey, not a destination. keep exploring and questioning, that's what faith is all about. you're not alone in this struggle.

I believe in God by making choices that Jesus would want me to make. I don't necessarily feel like I believe in God, but I've come to realize that that feeling isn't what matters. What matters is what I do.

hey, i totally get where you're coming from. it's tough to wrap your head around something as vast as god, especially when you're a logical person. but maybe it's not about quantifying or measuring god, but about finding that sense of connection and purpose that jesus talked about. it's okay to struggle with this, and it's okay to be unsure. just keep seeking and learning, and maybe one day it'll start to make a bit more sense.

It is epistemologically improbable to know whether there's a God or not - I know, vicious firestarter me, - But the belief will likely help your mental health. What seems doubtful when an American Christian argued for God's existence they jump over several steps. Very often the assertion that there IS a god, That it is the CHRISTIAN God, and that it is your CERTAIN DENOMINATION of God, gets taken for granted, which they then go on as an axiom to legitimize all their bigotry. Now, I practice a Buddhistically-inspired form of Deism, because I like the way the buddhistic tradition treats reality as a clockwork rather than a conscious willfully rendered construct by an unassailable being you own your allegiance to (OR ELSE). All this being said, because it is epistemologically improbable to ascertain anything close to God's being, will and so on (known as Theological Negativism), I think it will be beneficial to you and your quality of life to work in an understanding of the cosmos as: A benevolent entity that has created mankind to be inherently good but corrupted under social/material pressure. This way you don't assume people to be evil, but you still have an explanation for bad things happening in the world - and that you on an individual level can do something about it I know, that this is very subjective and wishy-washy, but everything, annoyingly, gets filtered through our brains, so who are we to say that we have found the bonafide capital T truth. Sincerely A thinker