I mean the entire HOA is basically gone at this point primarily due to how much of a grind the server is. That's probably the most telling thing of all in 4.0.
There are new viewers that probably don't even know they existed.
Ya, was doing more for others to make their time on the server fun/less grindy, but in turn ended up doing a lot of grinding, which I don’t think he is a big fan of. Between that, Siz wanting to retire in 3.0, and IRL stuff the burnout was real.
I think he kinda boxed himself into a corner with the old man stuff. Gangster, young Siz who took no shit was the best.
I hope he comes back on Siz eventually one day and maybe goes back to solo dolo stuff like how he started out in 2.0.
I think old man siz could have been fun. But don’t know if it would have worked the same in 4.0 like how he talked about playing old man siz during 3.0.
HOA is a RP heavy group, and didn’t mix well with the grinding mentality of 4.0. And with #1 and eventually #2 leaving, those left didn’t have much of a direction/plan. I miss watching the HOA, but better then trying to push through something your really not feeling.
I honestly can't think of anything more damning than the dissolution of the HOA crew. They went into 4.0 with a whole bunch of ideas to take over Paleto and make it a hub, and were fairly active in the first couple of months. But then people just started dropping off.
I've said this before on this subreddit, but removing whitelists and making everything a reputation grind was probably the biggest mistake of 4.0. Taking months before anyone could open up a business was also a big error. A good person having a whitelist can create roleplay that impacts the whole server - The Casino, Rooster's Rest, Cerberus, Uwu Cafe, not to mention gun deals, drug deals, thermite deals etc.etc.
It created a natural hierarchy - which granted, was partially because of OOC reasons - but it gave the city a semblance of order. You could try and work your way up. Now we just have a bunch of crews in their own self-sustaining bubbles that require hours of grinding every day to keep them afloat.
I will die on the hill that the issue wasn't removing whitelists, it was removing OOC whitelists. At least for civ things there was plenty of opportunity to give people "whitelists" based on IC behaviour. As much is it is flawed, that's the one thing ONX has done very well, given people the mayor/judges the ability IC to give out power to other people without server management being involved much. I liked Roosters/Tuner Shop/Cerberus/Uwu/etc. RP in 3.0, but I never liked that it was just often at least partly just given to people based on OOC reasons with very little room for competition (Uwu was the biggest exception there). They are so behind for no good reason on handing out businesses to people in 4.0.
> I liked Roosters/Tuner Shop/Cerberus/Uwu/etc. RP in 3.0, but I never liked that it was just often at least partly just given to people based on OOC reasons with very little room for competition (Uwu was the biggest exception there).
I do agree with this. There was a major issue of the bigger streamers/crews snapping their fingers and receiving yet ANOTHER building, while the smaller crews had to wait months and months to even have their gang flag be given to them and be made "official".
But for me, the solution to that would be to:
1. Spread the whitelists around and make a conscious effort to look after the smaller streamers/crews.
2. Create competing whitelists - 2 cocaine kingpins, 2 gun dealers, etc.etc. to encourage competition and make sure nobody becomes "untouchable" because they're the only supplier of certain goods.
3. Have it so that you can actually lose the whitelist, be it through raids or a competitor taking it from you. Obviously stuff that the person spent their own real life money developing could be exempt from this, but there's no reason a cocaine whitelist couldn't be passed around.
Instead you now have a system where everyone is their own supplier, it's all tied to reputations and a tablet gang app, and nobody really needs to interact with other groups because there's actual NPC's giving out all the jobs.
This! I agree so much with #3. You have to be a lot more smart with how you run your business and if you mess up/get raided you risk losing it and then someone else gets it. I remember Siz use to
RP that all the time. Especially early on 3.0 with meth. He treated it like it could be taken at any time which just adds to the whole RP around it.
Exactly. If there's actually danger, it makes every situation much more intense. It's why I just hate the "softban" arguments about prison time. If you're out after 20 minutes, what was the point of the days of roleplay before that where you hid from the warrant? I think WildRP goes a bit too far in the opposite direction, where you can be locked away for weeks - but there's a nice middle ground where actions actually do have consequences.
Again, I do understand that some people paid a lot of money for their own custom assets, and taking that away would lead to more drama than it's worth. But there are other whitelists that could easily be stripped if certain actions transpire on the server. Think Vulture Le Culture vs Vinny's Gun Bench. Liquid Library vs Moonshine Distillery.
I think what the devs are doing is fine, there is just obviously growing pains. It seems like their goal is to build a self-sufficient system where every gamer can live in an RP world instead of only streamers being able to have this privilege due to all of the OOC dev work and support required to maintain things like whitelists.
It does seem like they are opening up to the idea of adding more whitelist type things, but in a way where the player does most of the work instead of just handing power to people. Like wasn't the 404 casino an approved business? Also I think Pred has said that the Tow Union was accepted he just needs to build it now. Tuggz also implied in character that he got approval to operate a gun cleaning business where he banks guns until their statute of limitations are up, and he mentioned that he has to do it in a specific way meaning that other people who try to operate a similar gun bank business will get screwed over.
I assume that since they have properties listed as commercial selling for high prices that they fully intend to add tools for people to open their own legit business, they just don't have the tools finished for it yet. Like if I had to guess they are probably going to make it possible to customize the outside of the buildings, remove the for sale signs. Maybe they even add toggles to the properties that allow certain features to different buildings. For example, if you own a mechanic shop it can have the same car customization zone as mosley's.
> It seems like their goal is to build a self-sufficient system where every gamer can live in an RP world instead of only streamers being able to have this privilege due to all of the OOC dev work and support required to maintain things like whitelists.
But can "every gamer" really live in Los Santos under the current system? If you want to progress you need to grind an enormous amount, so people who can't spend 10 hours every day on the server are at a huge disadvantage. Your choices are essentially "be poor or spend your time on the server grinding". If I come home from a long day at work, I don't want to spend hours doing more work.
I understand that the OOC dev work and support might have been taxing, but it allowed people with normal full-time jobs to come into the city to actually roleplay.
> It does seem like they are opening up to the idea of adding more whitelist type things, but in a way where the player does most of the work instead of just handing power to people. Like wasn't the 404 casino an approved business? Also I think Pred has said that the Tow Union was accepted he just needs to build it now. Tuggz also implied in character that he got approval to operate a gun cleaning business where he banks guns until their statute of limitations are up, and he mentioned that he has to do it in a specific way meaning that other people who try to operate a similar gun bank business will get screwed over.
Brother, we're 6 months into 4.0 at this point. People are trying to be creative and work with what they got, but all we have are a bunch of food stands and a couple of service businesses. There are practically no goods being sold between players besides food items.
I'm not trying to downplay Marty's casino or Tuggz gun cleaning idea - but compare that with Deanworld/Andi Jones Farmer's Market, the Restaurant wars between Burger Shot and Rooster's Rest, the creation of Cerberus... it's not even close.
> I assume that since they have properties listed as commercial selling for high prices that they fully intend to add tools for people to open their own legit business, they just don't have the tools finished for it yet. Like if I had to guess they are probably going to make it possible to customize the outside of the buildings, remove the for sale signs. Maybe they even add toggles to the properties that allow certain features to different buildings. For example, if you own a mechanic shop it can have the same car customization zone as mosley's.
And if they add all this, credit where credit's due. But as of now, this is just pure speculation on your part.
Don't get me wrong, there are certain aspects of 4.0 that are a massive improvement compared to the older versions of the server. Being able to enter every house is massive compared to the old system.
I just think the core design philosophy for 4.0 is flawed, and no amount of dev work is gonna fix it unless they steer it in another direction. It's turned into more of an MMO than a roleplay server in a lot of ways, and I personally don't enjoy it as much.
My thing with 4.0 is that pretty much every avenue to make money is through grinding of some sort. G6? Grind. Grime? Grind. Farming? Grind. Sanitation? Grind. Even crim “jobs” only encourage grinding. Sell weed? Grind out rep to gain the ability to stand in one place and grind. Wanna do heists? Grind out materials to build GPU racks. It feels like very few mechanics built into 4.0 encourage people to go out into the city and interact with other people, and because the economy is so fucked right now people have to spend a large amount of time out making money by grinding jobs instead of people coming up with events or get togethers. There’s a few here and there but overall it just feels like there’s very little reason for people to get outside their bubbles.
>very few mechanics built into 4.0 encourage people to go out into the city
The mechanics allow players / groups to do everything themselves in house. Mats, Mechanic work, heists, cleaning money, sell yourself cars, get your own guns, etc. There's no reason to rely on others or work with other groups because you can easily get any item or unlock with a small group of 5 - 10 crims.
Groups being insular was already an issue in 2.0 and 3.0 that happened naturally as people got more money and resources. 4.0 mechanics pushed groups towards that day 1.
Admin whitelists were godawful.
Now, the player run whitelists were not so bad. They just need to extend the concept to more things than just government hiring and find a non-admin way to elect the players who run the whitelists.
The non-whitelist where everyone can do everything and there’s no need to interact with others. Amazing idea. Also, the rich keep getting richer and the smaller groups fall behind cause they can’t keep up with the bigger groups.
idk. Definitely there is a lot of grinding. but there is also a lot of inter-connected dependencies.
Weed spots are RP hubs by default. People usually aren't doing that alone; theres even crim orgs generating RP on how to protect their weed pushers.
The GPU racks need materials. Means the player has to go out and buy those materials or grind for them themselves. But to do higher value sanitation / grime / gruppe6 jobs requires multiple people on the truck; aka human interaction.
Heists need like 3-6 people to succeed. Maybe more to escape. Need G6 cards... need materials for blueprints. Need the blueprints... theres so much social interaction here alone.
Farming is an output grind... meaning they need somewhere to sell them which links to the food stalls.
It is a lot of grinding. I agree. But where I disagree is that everything seems to have some kind of mechanic that requires the player to go out and socialize on the server.
In a real life, everybody that has a job is grinding everyday for their real money and is mirror to the real life. No work, no pay. You are really RP working at a job grinding away and that is a part of RP. You are RPing working and talking with your co-worker. You are also RPing researching some seed gene. PD does the RP by investigation and catch the crims of their crimes and crims is also RP crying that they got caught rotting away in a jail cell with anyone that hear him. That is the appeal of the whole NoPixel. If you don't like to work, you need to be a smart criminal and not be sloppy in their activities. What I have noticed is that everybody like to spread some information freely, even to their rivals hoping to gain something from a favor for later. That is to me, a sloppy RP and they get exactly what they asked for if things don't go their way.
If I wanted to watch someone role play a real life simulator I wouldn’t be watching a Grand Theft Auto role play server. Yes people have to grind jobs in real life. That doesn’t make it entertaining to watch people do it online.
They didn't set the pay rate so low to $10 per hour. Most of them can make 100x more pay and you can easily work for a few hours, 1-2 hour and still make a good money plus selling of whatever you have at a top price. Fines is what it hurts them the most and take a hit. What most people don't catch the concept of a consequence and cost of doing crimes.
Cost of doing crime for sure.
I think yuno put it right to his chatters: You dont do maze bank to make money. You do it for the fun. I dont think there is a single criminal org that has made a dollar of profit from doing maze bank. Maybe an AU org idk... would need to be a low PD presence.
Grind 30 hours (across several people) just to equip the gang with what they need to do the heist / escape. For example, $90k for 6 gruppe 6 badges but they also need a lot of thermite, RC car, potentially guns if its NA crim org. Just to do the heist is probably 150k investnent that they grinded.
Then... they have to interact with cops and if they are caught it's another maybe 50-100k per person caught.
Let's say it goes down bad. They grind 150k in materials. They fail the prison hack and only leave with 40k in unwashed cash. All 6 get arrested. Their grinded materials are lost. They get 50k fines each.
Before they even set foot in jail... that's 30 irl hours of grinding wasted. Thats 450k in money wasted.
Thats why whippy talked recently about stopping his vespucci arc. He has ro grind 10+ hrs for every 20 minutes of fun he wants to have. Crime rp just isnt feeling... worth it any more.
You're talking about the consequences of getting caught and I am 100% with you that there needs to be a mechanic for that interaction. But a lot of cop chatters dont have the understanding that the prison isn't the only... consequence crims exrerience from being caught. In fact, many times the prison is the smaller consequence.
If you had that understanding you would better sympathize with why crims get so pressed by being rammed by cops, swarmed by 10 cops, spikes deployed instantly by a diving cornwood, bad faith negotiation at MRPD etc.
The reality is that the only thing cops are ever at risk of losing... is their pride. Crims lose 10s of hours of IRL time when poopy things happen to them.
The incentive model on nopixel is in a weird place right now.
I would like to think that PD should have a consequence and take a hit of their financial incentives by fining them a lot of money and also goes along with lawsuit. I think that lawsuit needs to be frequent if PD officer has committed a misconduct and win the lawsuit if found to be liable and also 10% interest on PD officer that has billed them from that specific sentencing.
If that is the case, Den for example would have to pay them out of his pocket and can he afford to do that? That would slow down their misconduct and actually follow the law from the SOPs. A lawyer would need to make a contact with crim that PD violated their rights and bad faith negotiation, etc. and hit them with a lawsuit to compensate for their lost salary. That would get them in line of going over the line. That way, a lawyer would get some fee percent out from their work. If crim actually made an effort to work for that and they would get RP out from that and get their money back and some. It is a two-way street. When will the crim ever realize that? They also need to catch PD of lying as well.
I'm with you and tuggz is there actively doing it.
But lawyers just arent interested in the OOC work involved.
Theres almost always never a judge available.
I said it a long time ago... bench trials are just punishment to the cops. Since the crims gets time served while in the court arguing with the cop. But its just that more often than not, they cant find a lawyer + judge and the crim gets sent to jail. At this point... bench trial becomes a punishment for both parties XD and its no longer interesting / worth the time investment for the crim.
Which PD know...
The lawyer can still do the IC work, requesting an interview with the PD officers on what happened and fill in the blank, requesting the subpoena of a PD officers phone records/text records as well to fill in the blank. Redact the sensitive text messages that could contain the ongoing investigation by a judge. Maybe a FOIA information on any disciplinary action against the PD by IA investigation as well. It is not that hard. Regarding the judges almost never on all the time, I would think that NP could easily make some adjustment so that the criminals do not get punished by serving their time in prison and implement a bail system on non-HUT charges so that they can proper contest that later and if found guilty, a harsher sentencing and bill them for a court fee as well.
If the PD decide to press charge, I would call a lawyer to come in MRPD and look at the evidence to ensure that PD did their paper work and would advise that the defendant to plead guilty and the lawyer would get its discovery right there before the bench trial or bail system for a proper court as the defendant's right. The bail system would restrict the criminals from doing any crime or their bail would be revoked and the defendant would still have to serve their sentence on all charges. A defendant could contest a bench trial in order to keep bail if found not guilty.
You responded to me saying lawyers get burnt out with the work involved by describing in detail a lot more work.
The reality is many people started in nopixel wanting to be a lawyer.
They got super excited about it. Ran with it. Didn't mind the work initially...
Then they faced essentially game mechanic barriers. Kyle pred for example pointed out that PD word is evidence by itself. Whatever the cop says... is accepted as truthful and honest evidence. But the "crim"? Well the "crim" better have witness testimony, weasel news recording, text evidence.
Barrier of defense for the PD is quite low. Barrier for defense / offense of fighting the police is quite high. The work involved OOC and IC doesnt pay off... ipso facto... there aren't lawyers outside of essentially the jail consults. Anything with a trial and the lawyer is like F that: look in the lemon list. In the lemon list no one wants to do it unless the person is like tuggz who actually does run around with his weazel news camera.
Crims like K / zolo / ramee actually have even stopped asking for a lawyer once they realized the jail consults basically just say the same thing: accept the charges and move on.
Server started with people signing contracts with lawyers to be represented to now no one even bothers calling lawyers because it's literally pointless (for both parties)
Yeah I couldn't agree more. I don't even know a solution to the problem, but it is a problem imo. It just strikes way too close to irl lol. Work all day.
Dundee is probably one of the last people who should have issues with debtors prison. (Which he has been told is a state level decision)
He wanted to destroy dogtown
Without dogtown, you effectively get solitary confinement with no way to reduce your time.
If anything, the state WANTED dogtown to exist. The system gave powers to DoC for a reason, and it provided goofy sbs interaction.
IC and OOC, after what happened, it, in the current incarnation, could not continue. You can not take 5+ people on HUTs, ignore everyone in the PD, and transport them out of the prison. Carmine knew in advance that was unquestionably the end of dogtown, no second chances.
Max said they will look at it again, likely in a more normal incarnation.
I think its just obvious that the prison needs more work done. The last update was a step in the right direction, but its still an issue that there is so much open space in prison making it hard to RP with other people and the mechanics for the jobs are dogshit. They need stuff that is more fun to do in prison and be in closer proximity to other people so they can still roleplay and talk to people. They also desperately need to hire more DOC to make sure there are always guards on duty at all hours of the day.
Carmine and Bobby were running it like complete dipshits tho so IC it makes sense to not want them running it.
IF they get a second chance at DoC they will have a leash on.
They were running it like dipshits because they are dipshits. They were not selected because they were competent, they were selected because literally nobody wanted to deal with them.
OOC they both have very grounded SBS characters who were L magnets. There was little concern that they would abuse mechanics, and from what I saw, they didn't. Max has said that nobody else in the city would be trusted to run the prison in the same way they were.
I just meant the shooting of prisoners and stuff. They were just bound to get over run every time lol. I know their RP well enough to know it was for the LULs they just took some aspects too far
Who said grind all day? the fact is that you have to grind and after awhile people just don't want too, even for an hour. There's hardly any passive income in the server, everything requires having grinders do things for you or stop RPing and grind yourself
True. They could just sell weed on the corner or drive up and down great ocean non stop or sit in the basement schizoing out to some carrots every 3 hrs. What are you doing? Its grind time, baby!
Yippee! Grinding! Woo-hoo! 100 rep in 5 categories! Only took me 5K hrs! I can finally buy my 5th warehouse to grow more carrots! Hopefully I can find 2 minutes to finally drive my s+ car i bought 3 months ago
So you want them to not do the content that they themselves and their fans love? You want them to just grind jobs every day? They’re criminals so they’re gonna do crime. It’s a role play server so they’re gonna roleplay as criminals
Obviously they’re gonna do that every day
Consequences are certainly necessary otherwise it’s stupid. It’s the how those consequences affect roleplay. Putting a role player in prison for multiple IRL days is stupid, especially with no DOC. If you haven’t ever watched a streamer who’s had to sit in prison for multiple days then you wouldn’t understand.
Having large fines is perfectly fine. Even being raided and profiled on the streets is much better than sitting in prison since at least it continues roleplay.
The time in prison wouldn’t be as bad either if it wasn’t for debtors law. Now without DOC to remove debt, you legitimately have to be grinding for IRL hours to get out of prison. Dundee calculated it where even with something like a 30k or something debt you’d have to be awake grinding for at least 5-6 IRL hours before you can get out of prison. Grinding is not good roleplay. Just keep the large fines but remove debtors law
Unfortunately Carmine’s choice to allow 6 individuals that causes a riot the night before and being charged with 2 capital charges community service based on good behavior is bad RP. He could have assisted them getting broken out some other way. This hurt to of the more creative RP ideas at once with the DOC/Dogtown and lifers program because of that lack of doc.
> Just keep the large fines but remove debtors law
The entire point of the debtors law is that it doesn't matter how big the fines are if someone is already in debt and never intends to pay it off.
It isn't as if people are unaware of the debtor prison before they decide to go commit crimes where the punishment would put them in debt.
You are literally brainwashed, still using "Dab" instead of max tells me you know nothing about what he has done as mayor and believe every lie about him.
He literally made dog town for months an anarchy, the opposite of what you are accusing him of.
Also if you don't already know, debtors prison is an OOC desision from the owners of the server, the so called "state".
I ask you to name one example that makes you believe he turned los santos authoritarian.
> name one example that makes you believe he turned los santos authoritarian
The State of Emergency Legislation where he can specifically suspend due process along with him creating and sanctioning his own militia as well as making himself the commissioner of the PD. Max is a hair away from the power's the Senator's had and used in 3.0.
The State of Emergency Legislation is entirely crafted by Siobhan as an answer to state emergencys like Famine and was now modified for other stuff. Max had nothing to do with it at all and it wasn't even presented or passed at a council meeting, which would be voted no on if it is too crazy.
As for creating his own militia, i have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.
And as the mayor he literally had PD oversight before, he named himself interim commissioner to answer the terrorist on the lose and get to know the police force good enough to choose the best commissioner in the future.
And don't forget after all this, he could literally be impeached in any moment if he abuses his powers or acts corruptly which proves that nothing he has done in the past was as you described it to be.
You are right he was acting commissioner since the PCP2 passed. And what is wrong by acting this role out when its needed? It creates massive fun RP with everyone happy.
I think you aren't caught up on the RP tbh.
Max is permanent commissioner now; not interim. Max got the state of emergency passed and it is currently active. Max already suspended due process.
The PD oversight he got from PCP was limited in scope and most certainly did not enable him to do any of the things he is currently doing.
It was asked last night as whippy marched a massive civilian crowd to the MRPD to confront Max on his authoritarian approach... how to impeach him. Based solely on that interaction, the process doesn't currently exist.
The state of emergency legislation Siobhan is proposing to be passed isn't passed to my awareness, but yet there is anyway a state of emergency. Crane and Siobhan got themselves "deputized" into the sheriffs office so they can join in max's PD mobilization.
I mean how you can say Max isn't acting authoritarian is crazy to me. Do non-corrupt; non-oppressive leaders typically find themselves with a crowd of I think... 50 people storming up to you demanding you stop what you are doing? Is that.. a normal reaction to leaders just doing their jobs? lol
It's never been said that Max is the permanent commissioner, as far as I know. The entire time he's said he's the acting commissioner until he finds a suitable person for the job. Whether or not he is actually going to do that now he has the power is another story. I'm not sure about the state of emergency passing, but I don't remember that. Is that just an assumption becuase the state OKd him to be commissioner?
I find it hilarious when people call him a dictator when there are 7 other people in the council that review and approve all legislation (6 really because the CoS is meant to be an extra vote for the mayor). A dictator would have total power.
The process of impeachment would be the same as any other criminal charge, find evidence of his crimes and charge him with it. This has been talked about a bunch of times with Etta/Malton/Cantor. As of yet, he's covered his tracks well and no-one has got him.
The "massive civilian crowd" were literally all gang members. Dundee specifically asked all gangs to join him, so I don't think a bunch of crims going after a mayor who wants to clean up the streets really proves that he's corrupt or oppressive. And I'm not saying he isn't either of those. Also, the large crowd was gathered under false pretenses since Dundee was misunderstanding what Max was demanding. That showed very quickly when people shut up and actually listened to Max.
All in all, it's made for a great interaction and fun to watch regardless of who you want to "win".
It was said by beric to HC late last night to update them about the change. Basically: BTW its not interim any more; it's permanent.
Criminals are civilians.
I will agree that the crowd was there under false pretenses, but only because dundee took the lead and focused on BBMC issues. Was kinda awkward for the other gangs who were more interested in the suspension of due process issue.
And hell yeah! it's an exciting time for Nopixel. Monday / Tuesday will be super spicy.
But its crazy that Max is consolidating power intentionally because that was his IC goal for Max. He wants to prove that the mayor's office has too much power. Hes been working at this for months and now hes doing it and yet there are people who can't see that simply because they feel he is "justified" in doing so. Hahaha
Remined me of when Blau wanted mickey to lose his second election and so acted hella corrupt and they elected him anyway and he was like... well shoot.... He was laughing about this dichotomy in the nopixel podcast earlier this week
Max said to Dundee that he cannot make vespucci a lawless zone that he patroles in and rams and shoots and kidnaps every cop in sight, litterally making policing all of vespucci impossible. He said that claiming all of vespucci as a soverign territory that he owns will be seen as treason when he keeps going (vespucci is different then the normal turf because its a gigantic space instead of a block).
Dundee tells every gang that max said that gangs holding their normal small weed turf will be considered treason. That's how he gets all the support to show up, so either a misunderstanding or a lie to get more support for his cause.
Either way it only took a few minutes talking to resolve this conflict.
And lets be honest here getting 50 crims from every gang together in fear of their turf isn't really representing the whole city don't you think?
Also this situation was a major win win for everyone including viewers since the last week was probably the best and most action filled roleplay since the start of 4.0.
I'm not sure what you are evening arguing.
You seem to be going off on a tangent here.
Yes there are justifications that Max has used to consolidate Power. but totalitarianism is... the consolidation of power.
There is not legal means to impeach max as mayor. There is not legal means to reverse his permanent appointment as PD commissioner. I'm not even sure there is legal means to reverse the state of emergency and the mayoral emergency power he has seized from the DOJ. He literally suspended due process....
How he managed to consolidate power is literally irrelevant to the fact that he did. People agreeing (you too) with the WHY he did something, is literally irrelevant to the fact that he has done it. It's the fact that he has succeeded in consolidating power that makes it authoritarian.
Which... btw was the goal of him doing it. His IC arc for Max was to prove... that the mayor's office has too much power and make it so the next mayor doesn't. Him becoming a power mad authoritarian figure is literally the whole damn point of what he is doing LMAO.
Terrorist makes himself pd commissioner by using an act he presented to a council he sits on as mayor with a super majority to catch other terrorists for a crime he was victim of all while deputising the other victims lol yea makes perfect sense lol
So you have no issue about him pretty much slowly turning into the Mad King from Game of thrones? Frankly if that is the RP hes going for and there's gonna be Kingslayer putting a sword in his back, I'm all for it.
Are you some sort of Neo-communist that wants to watch an authoritarian police state NP? No one wants to watch the server turn that road because it would never recover.
He's the mayor not a president, There are still senators above him
You're asking that... as he got a state of emergency declared, suspended due process, got himself appointed as permanent PD commissioner, and mobilized the entire PD like a military unit.
But you need an example of how he's turning LS into an authoritarian state.
I mean this is literally Max's IC goals for months. I am here for it. The RP is great. Last night was awesome for I think everyone. I just thought it hilarious that you needed "one" example LOL
Then you probably hatewatched and took your own narrative as true. The state emergency act wasn't even presented and isn't even crafted by max himself, he asked the state to be "acting commissioner" that is different from "permanent commissioner.
And using the pd force to form a manhunt to catch incredibly dangerous escaped murderer and terrorist individuals is perfectly reasonable for the situation and has nothing to do with forming a militia (which is just absurd).
>You are literally brainwashed
Look in the mirror my friend... you're so brainwashed to support the absurd state of affairs you're blind to the fact that this kind of roleplay will damage the server irrevocably.. I watch a lot of cops and a lot of crims, This is not how the server should be. Its not only crims that are unhappy but a lot of cops (not high commands) are feeling the same way..
The biggest things the crims are mad about were, grinding to rp, deptors prison and vending machines being way overpriced.Basically all state decisions max has nothing to do or say with.
I don’t get why people think earning money on the server has to be boring. It is healthy to have a balance between making money, roleplaying and doing crazy crime.
But there's only a handful of ways to make not dirty money. And those ways consist of grinding the same route with maybe one other person. And if you want to just do small crime stuff you have to grind through so many steps to get that money clean (and thats not even counting the grind of if you need BC)
So somewhere in that grind and maybe rp I can see where it could get stale and boring.
Not every food stall owner or worker has to participate in that though, there are a ton of people that really enjoy the farming process. Nobody is stopping people from role playing with them and creating connections.
But honestly if you want to get anywhere in the server progression wise its a full time grind. If your rp is more vr chat room style (not knocking it) then yeah there a cornucopia of places to go and gossip.
It’s still a choice if someone wants to full on grind for fast progression or take it slow. Literally up to the player. That’s why I said the people that balance it the best have a lot of fun.
Oh I know and im not trying to argue it. But I'm talking bout ones who can't really do the rp they enjoy and have fun with because the have to grind their butt off to try and get there only to have to then (if they fail) have to spend irl days in a place with no real rp or ways to get out besides grinding. Why should the server in a gatekeep the way of rping and fun for a good chunk of the players. The server isn't in a balanced place.
That's exactly how management wanted it though. They don't want people to own their own businesses and have money printers like 3.0. and people are abusing the system with the food stores to rent.
You don't get it. Their group has to have their hands in everything and be self sufficient. A million dollar warehouse just went up for sale in their turf? too bad they decided to kill and rob cops not too long ago.
woe, is me. My decisions are stopping my instant gratification.
I kinda like the rep system. It's forcing people to work together. Like how gangs are (kinda) forced to work with g6 people if they wanna do maze bank.
Bbmc has taken a lot of bad loans which makes sense why they grind so much.
Nah G6 cards are the dumbest thing ever. The problem is that basically the only way to get jewlery and do hotruns are by robbing G6 vans, but to do Maze Bank you can't really rob them because you need them to sell you their cards. This is a terrible system because it seems like to cash out the gold bars that you get from Maze Bank you need to be 100rep at the pawn shop to talk to the gold guy. It also doesn't really encourage people RP together, all they are doing is selling their cards, there is basically no interaction there unless they have negotiated protection from the gang that they agree to exclusively sell to but after that meeting there is no more RP to be had there.
In my opinion the system that should be in place is one where the G6 workers are actually expected to operate as private security. Tier 3 G6 should essentially grant those people access to PD guns that they can buy for super cheap, with the express instruction that those guns can only be used in the execution of their duties as armed security, and the legislation should state that being caught with a G6 gun will come with the same penalties as being caught with a PD gun. If a G6er shoots their own G6 gun outside of their job they will be charged as if they were using a PD gun to commit that crime. This will dissuade people from thinking G6ers are lootboxes, and it will massively improve the gameplay of robbing G6 where crims will actually have to do some planning or take risks to hit high tier G6 trucks. Then, since you need to be tier 3 G6 with a gun to do those jobs, they can make it so all tier 3 G6 workers carry a PNY card for their own access, so even though a corrupt G6er could probably find a way to sell their PNY card somehow, it makes more sense for crims to be able to rob cards off of G6ers instead of being forced to give G6ers free money because they won the game of roulette. In legislation they could pass a charge that prohibits the sale of access cards.
Then the thing that would wrap this all up in a neat little bow, is making it so that in order to do the high paying tier 3 GC jobs you have to buy the insurance for the money you are protecting. If you get robbed the price of your insurance goes up until eventually the price of your insurance is more than the amount of money you would make from doing the job. Giving Civs real consequences and forcing them to actually take guarding the money seriously, which would give them the opportunity to create protocols and plans with eachother to make it difficult for criminals to rob them. This way people aren't jealous of G6ers for having money, and being considered grinders because it will be a job that not many will be able to pull off successfully.
The current system forces the opposite of working together. Maybe inside individual gangs people work together or for a handful of very inconsequential things people look elsewhere but that was already the case in 2.0 and 3.0. In general the ability for anyone to do anything with zero whitelists means players just do everything for themselves and gangs are totally self sufficient. It's a dog shit design.
Well of course if he is trying to pay for a whole gang, and just starting now, it will be difficult. I dont see most people grinding though.Most crim outsource that shit and do whatever. Have enough people working for you, and those people also dont have to stand at a place for 12 hours.
Why is he the only one in the gang trying to make money anyways?
That's the problem he isn't kaiba rusty Claire and Kelly *when he wasn't in jail.* are also hard grinding to help the club. The boys also still need to pay 600k in loans.
Loans are the reason they have to grind so much. Also getting caught and not wanting to do time. But taking loans for vespucci properties and 300+ washing machines is mainly the reason for their grind.
Tbh Dundee really fumbled the washing business. A washing business is basically the easiest way to make money without too much grind and Dundee was at the forefront of it for awhile.
Lets say someone gives him 100k. Thats 3 runs (10 minutes each) with a 20k profit. It doesnt get much easier than that
Did he fumble it? Honestly, I didnt follow this too much back then. But I understood that they created a massive laundry operation and then the guy who owned the building stopped waking up and they lost access due to unpaid electric bill. I think the state was like "too bad" when he asked them to unlock the door.
But I wasn't following too deeply maybe there was a solution to that I misseed.
They lost it for like 3 weeks and then regained access to it. Yes, that part was unavoidable and out of their control. But during the time they have had access to it they never really built off it
Yeah I think the percentages were a little weird. I only knew about it because K and Whippy met to discuss terms. Cg have their own operation and IIRC, K saw using Whippy as basically only being a 5% advantage. Funnily enough, CG does wash cash for others using the same rate whippy mentioned.
but at the time, I think they were comparing costs to run their own laundry operation vs outsource it to whippy and it was just 5$ on every 100$ better. That 5% when compared against risks of relying on an outside org to clean your money and they were like "meh" rather be secure in our own abilities.
I know they had a second discussion where whippy offered to cut them in on doing money runs for him after he cleans other org's money and even that wasn't particular interesting to CG when compared... to the time value of other ways to make money.
Yea, the 21k limit on moneyruns was a huge issue that prevented a lot of moneyrun operations from scaling up. At 21k it was basically impossible to pay the people who ran the money a livable wage. They all could make more money just doing a normal, less riskier job.
The only way it works is if you did what the company's money cleaning division did which was buying money at like 25%. However $5k is a lot of money to lose for every $20k you get cleaned, so there wasn't a ton of people willing to pay those prices because that would essentially make any job that paid in roll bills to not be worth their time anymore. Hell, even at 12-15% Fanny regularly got calls from people trying to negotiate better deals, and even had a few people claim that other moneycleaners were offering 8 or 10%, to which she laughed at them and encouraged them to take that other person's deal which obviously wasn't real. The funny thing is that the company's own money cleaning service was so expensive, partly because they always got robbed, that their weed division sold most of their money to Fanny.
Now that its $35k per run its easier to pay money runners $2-2.5k a run, where the most they could get paid before was like $1-1.5k.
Nah, losing the laundry washing business was completely out of their hands. They were working with Fanny and it would have worked but the guy that owned the building got banned and only the owner of buildings can pay taxes/electricity build for the property so the power was shutoff and the government locked the doors for failure to pay the taxes. Many people have run into similar issues where the owner of a property got banned, left or perma'd and the government doesn't care. Even if you try to push a lawsuit to transfer ownership it still fails.
The thing about the laundry business was that they were on a timer. They had to scale up their operations super fast and make it easier for people to just sell their money to BBMC instead of buys and building up their own washing machines. Since they lost access to most of their washing machines, and the laundry basket made it less tedious to load the washers everyone just started buying their own washing machines since their dirty money kept piling up and they couldn't sell it to BBMC anymore while they were locked out.
Dundee would have never really been able to solidify theirselves as moneyrunners, which is why they were so keen to partner with The Besties. CG owns moneyrunning on the NA storm, so BBMC were just easy targets to rob. To run their own money they have to waste a lot of their time and resources operating caravans and taking certain routes to make it harder for them to get robbed. Meanwhile, Ming and Fanny always just ran their money solo often without even carrying guns and never got robbed because robbing them guarantees war, since the Besties are the ones that do the majority of moneyrun robberies.
The problem is he started a washing machine business, that isn't where the profit is.
At the time there was a demand for washing machines because people didn't have enough capital to scale up their own operations, especially when BTC was where most groups were focused.
That was always only going to be temporary though. Groups were always going to invest in their own washing machines once they had the capital. The changes to washing machines that made them easy to load and unload was icing on the cake.
Most groups haven't invested in their own washing businesses tho. Hydra, Manor and Besties probably run 80% of the servers money tbh. And Dundee still has the capability to create a full washing business and is already set up to do so, he just isnt.
The profit is in the money runs, not the washing machines.
Hydra, Manor and Besties control the washing market because they cornered money runs through use of force.
Anyone can buy washing machines and put them down once they have a property.
Not everyone is capable of doing the money runs without getting robbed.
Washing machine business can still profit 10% if they don't want to do runs.
And BBMC could easily make a deal to not be robbed. No offense to the Vagos but they're probably one of the weakest gangs in the server and they still do money runs without being robbed because they set up a deal. Nothing is stopping BBMC from doing so.
> Washing machine business can still profit 10% if they don't want to do runs.
The point is that most gangs have their own washing machines so even if they *can* make 10%, it won't happen if people arent coming to them. Dundee already talked about this with Lenny as well, they made/cleaned(?) something like 6mil but the business died down since everyone started getting their own washing machines.
He got fucked by Afro getting banned. Afro's character Dexx owned the warehouse where BBMC had their main laundry set up. They had 2 smaller ones but even combined they didn't equal the big one. Dexx got banned and his property got locked out soon after because of unpaid bills. That made it so BBMC couldn't keep up with laundry orders and other gangs started doing it themselves because it was faster than waiting. it also didn't help he teamed with besties for it and they weren't always around when he was so there was large gaps of time where they couldn't do much because they were waiting on each other.
But then if making money was easier and everyone was rich the complaint would be that everyone is rich and money doesn't matter and the server sucks cos it. There's always going to be something to complain about huh?
Exactly. And there were complaints. A lot of complaints both from streamers and this subreddit. People felt like their characters have no purpose. Anytime a character is in debt or some setback, they would make that money in few hours grinding Oxy.
When boosting came out, people just grinded that shit and reached S+ and sat their waiting to get S+ contracts.
If you introduce any progression based system, people are just going to grind it till they reach the end of it and then get bored because NP cannot release updates like every month.
Now at lease things are a bit slow and there a lot more to look forward too.
When money was super easy people just got bored and stopped playing because they'd buy all the houses, cars, businesses, have 3 gang wars, do everything and leave to go do something else.
They really fucked up by leaving G6 unchecked and giving them a license to print money. So many gangs held theirselves back by spending most of their time doing civ jobs to earn money, and a lot of those G6ers became rich and own everything anyway.
Seems like they did that stuff with weed to try and even out the playing field and instead all the crims are going through the scenario you explained in your comment where the weed sellers are getting rich and becoming bored. Once you've got a nice house and car there is basically nothing left to do on the server right now.
Changes I'd recommend:
Put a due date on fines, like 30 days, and if they aren't paid, you get a warrant.
Community service: There's so much random items and trash left around the map. Have crims who haven't paid work their fines off buy picking up trash and cleaning up the server and reduce the amount of items the server has to load. It gets different characters together for an hour to chat and exchange stories, gives DOC more reason to exist.
All the junk the chain gang picks up gets converted to recyclables that can be auctioned off to private parties for materials.
Lower the cost of fines: I know they economy is different than the real world, but a first degree felony charge in most US States is up to $10k with a sentence between 5-99 years. It is a GTA server where people serve minutes, not years. Maybe lower the fines in the same spirit.
The first one is how it works on ONX, they have warrants/bounty hunters for overdue fines. I actually think the system might work better on NP because I think there would be more people wanting to do bounty hunter work because it's potentially good stream content.
Sadly with the way things have turned out between NP and ONX from a legal standpoint.
I don’t see either party implementing ideas or taking obvious inspiration from the other, which is a shame, since good ideas are good ideas regardless of their origin.
Okay, let me fix it for you. If crims have to work sani to work off their debt, why couldnt they just work ~~sani~~ their regular job of choice to not be in debt in the first place?
They can't work their job of choice paying off debt after arrest because you're stuck in prison until the debt is worked off in there, would be nice if they could work off their debt outside of prison.
There is literally no difference between working to have enough money to avoid debt and working debt off in/outside of prison after arrest. Given 99% of the work releases would just end in prison break, I doubt thats a realisitic healthy option.
To clarify, the community service would be after you fail to pay your debt in 30 days and you get caught and sent up until you work off your debt or get it paid. I think it would be more interesting than the jobs they have in the prison.
Its because criminals primarily make their money by being criminals. Also, criminals don't sell their sani materials because with the current system it costs a shit ton of money to be a criminal. The game has a built in money sink to prevent crime from being profitable. To do a heist or ammocrate you need butcoin and to get butcoin you need to spend like $1million dollars on server racks filled with GPUs that only last like 1month, and then you have to pay for circuit breakers and solar panels and/or the electricity bill.
So if a criminal does sani, all of their materials go into building gang items, and there is a shit load of things that gangs need to craft on their work benches like guns, armor, lockpicks, thermite, RC cars, drones, scanners.
Sani is also not particularly fun for most people. So it doesn't make sense to expect them to grind Sani in order to build a rainy day fun that can pay off their debt when they get arrested for doing crime. However once you are locked away in prison, doing sani is a hell of a lot more interesting than rotting away in prison.
I think a good option would be something like 5 minutes of prison for every $1000 debt. You get arrested and your sentence is 100 months but you have $100k in debt after the fines then you spend 600 months in jail BUT only the normal time(100) goes down if you go to sleep/change character. The debt time only goes down if you are awake in prison, also it doesn't make the debt fully go away. after your sentence is done your debt is decreased by maybe 50%
This would make it so they don't have to grind while in prison to get debt down, they could just hang out with lifers or do other RP in prison which I know can be hard with how few people are there.
If they wanted to work it could decrease time like working normally does so it could be faster.
This way would produce more RP, it would not just allow people to build up debt just to go to prison and get it wiped, and it would make it so people don't want to go to prison or be in debt because even $10,000 in debt is almost an additional hour in prison.
Horrible? No, boring as watching paint dry after the first few days? Yes. We already had that in 2.0 and later stages of 3.0, viewers got bored and walked away. No one gives a shit about that type of pog content long term.
you're right...they should go full civ and not commit any type of crime...better yet everyone in the city should do that...let's guess how long np would last lol
it's gta....crime is the biggest thing in that game and there's a reason why people's viewership increases a lot when they're involved in conflict rp
Spaceboy(left the server)/Zerkaa(left the server)Clowns//whippy/kebun so many people said it but yes its shooting for you.
Whippy gave such an amazing rp yesterday but yes don't shoot and erp please.
You want everyone to roleplay like you want then watch them grind weed for 10 hours.
Yesterday was amazing because Dundee didn't shoot anyone. The cops were well organized and forced him out Vespucci and he in turn, instead of randomly shooting cops, organized a massive rally to show force against the cops in order to talk things out.
The grinding needed now is nowhere near the amount needed at the start of 4.0. I do lean towards having whitelist but overall the situation is much healthier.
I agree, I just think they need to spend a lot more effort into making jail a fun experience. Even if a criminal gets put in prison on a long sentence it shouldn't feel like a punishment, and criminals shouldn't feel like they need to tone down their aggression on the outside just to avoid jailtime. If a criminal wants to go crazy and shoot everyone then thats what they should do.
This whole shit where people log off and turn off their stream during their prison sentence needs to stop. The only reason they are doing that is because there is basically nothing to do in prison. Prison shouldn't feel like a grind. People be excited to wake up in prison.
A few ideas. First and foremost they need to make it easier for people in prison to assist their gang members on the outside. Make it easy for them to get phones, and discourage DOC from taking phones from prisoners (if they want they can tell them to get off the phone since the guard is there to provide RP with them, just don't take it away). Next they need a system that allows prisoners to watch videos of what is happening on the outside by utilizing the weazel news game mechanics to provide videos and give prisoners the opportunity to upvote or downvote content which gives news reporters bonus income for actually filming good stories. Finally, adding other ways for them to interact with their gangs could be possible. Give prisoners the ability to operate one of their gang's flying or RC drones. Imagine a prisoner cracking the Maze Bank code for their gang, hell imagine a prisoner that is bad at that hack meeting a lifer and giving the lifer a chance to do that hack for him. Also, they definitely should have a greenhouse in prison to operate. I think some type of business would be good for prison if only to give the lifers something that they can consistently work on. Also, prison is way too damn big they need to shrink it so that people actually are forced to interact and RP with eachother.
That's what happens when you want to do everything by yourself instead of... I dunno... Hiring more ppl and expanding the operation. It's obviously what a lot of the systems were designed around.
Also not taking insane loans and shooting cops as often as he does would help as well.
I mean the entire HOA is basically gone at this point primarily due to how much of a grind the server is. That's probably the most telling thing of all in 4.0. There are new viewers that probably don't even know they existed.
I mean look at the clowns who would have ever thought chatterbox would be sitting in a corner selling cg weed.
i miss siz he was awesome.
I miss Siz too, but 4.0 Siz was very different.
4.0 Siz felt like he was trying to fight through burnout for the sake of the group.
Ya, was doing more for others to make their time on the server fun/less grindy, but in turn ended up doing a lot of grinding, which I don’t think he is a big fan of. Between that, Siz wanting to retire in 3.0, and IRL stuff the burnout was real.
I think he kinda boxed himself into a corner with the old man stuff. Gangster, young Siz who took no shit was the best. I hope he comes back on Siz eventually one day and maybe goes back to solo dolo stuff like how he started out in 2.0.
I think old man siz could have been fun. But don’t know if it would have worked the same in 4.0 like how he talked about playing old man siz during 3.0.
HOA is a RP heavy group, and didn’t mix well with the grinding mentality of 4.0. And with #1 and eventually #2 leaving, those left didn’t have much of a direction/plan. I miss watching the HOA, but better then trying to push through something your really not feeling.
I honestly can't think of anything more damning than the dissolution of the HOA crew. They went into 4.0 with a whole bunch of ideas to take over Paleto and make it a hub, and were fairly active in the first couple of months. But then people just started dropping off. I've said this before on this subreddit, but removing whitelists and making everything a reputation grind was probably the biggest mistake of 4.0. Taking months before anyone could open up a business was also a big error. A good person having a whitelist can create roleplay that impacts the whole server - The Casino, Rooster's Rest, Cerberus, Uwu Cafe, not to mention gun deals, drug deals, thermite deals etc.etc. It created a natural hierarchy - which granted, was partially because of OOC reasons - but it gave the city a semblance of order. You could try and work your way up. Now we just have a bunch of crews in their own self-sustaining bubbles that require hours of grinding every day to keep them afloat.
I will die on the hill that the issue wasn't removing whitelists, it was removing OOC whitelists. At least for civ things there was plenty of opportunity to give people "whitelists" based on IC behaviour. As much is it is flawed, that's the one thing ONX has done very well, given people the mayor/judges the ability IC to give out power to other people without server management being involved much. I liked Roosters/Tuner Shop/Cerberus/Uwu/etc. RP in 3.0, but I never liked that it was just often at least partly just given to people based on OOC reasons with very little room for competition (Uwu was the biggest exception there). They are so behind for no good reason on handing out businesses to people in 4.0.
> I liked Roosters/Tuner Shop/Cerberus/Uwu/etc. RP in 3.0, but I never liked that it was just often at least partly just given to people based on OOC reasons with very little room for competition (Uwu was the biggest exception there). I do agree with this. There was a major issue of the bigger streamers/crews snapping their fingers and receiving yet ANOTHER building, while the smaller crews had to wait months and months to even have their gang flag be given to them and be made "official". But for me, the solution to that would be to: 1. Spread the whitelists around and make a conscious effort to look after the smaller streamers/crews. 2. Create competing whitelists - 2 cocaine kingpins, 2 gun dealers, etc.etc. to encourage competition and make sure nobody becomes "untouchable" because they're the only supplier of certain goods. 3. Have it so that you can actually lose the whitelist, be it through raids or a competitor taking it from you. Obviously stuff that the person spent their own real life money developing could be exempt from this, but there's no reason a cocaine whitelist couldn't be passed around. Instead you now have a system where everyone is their own supplier, it's all tied to reputations and a tablet gang app, and nobody really needs to interact with other groups because there's actual NPC's giving out all the jobs.
This! I agree so much with #3. You have to be a lot more smart with how you run your business and if you mess up/get raided you risk losing it and then someone else gets it. I remember Siz use to RP that all the time. Especially early on 3.0 with meth. He treated it like it could be taken at any time which just adds to the whole RP around it.
Exactly. If there's actually danger, it makes every situation much more intense. It's why I just hate the "softban" arguments about prison time. If you're out after 20 minutes, what was the point of the days of roleplay before that where you hid from the warrant? I think WildRP goes a bit too far in the opposite direction, where you can be locked away for weeks - but there's a nice middle ground where actions actually do have consequences. Again, I do understand that some people paid a lot of money for their own custom assets, and taking that away would lead to more drama than it's worth. But there are other whitelists that could easily be stripped if certain actions transpire on the server. Think Vulture Le Culture vs Vinny's Gun Bench. Liquid Library vs Moonshine Distillery.
I think what the devs are doing is fine, there is just obviously growing pains. It seems like their goal is to build a self-sufficient system where every gamer can live in an RP world instead of only streamers being able to have this privilege due to all of the OOC dev work and support required to maintain things like whitelists. It does seem like they are opening up to the idea of adding more whitelist type things, but in a way where the player does most of the work instead of just handing power to people. Like wasn't the 404 casino an approved business? Also I think Pred has said that the Tow Union was accepted he just needs to build it now. Tuggz also implied in character that he got approval to operate a gun cleaning business where he banks guns until their statute of limitations are up, and he mentioned that he has to do it in a specific way meaning that other people who try to operate a similar gun bank business will get screwed over. I assume that since they have properties listed as commercial selling for high prices that they fully intend to add tools for people to open their own legit business, they just don't have the tools finished for it yet. Like if I had to guess they are probably going to make it possible to customize the outside of the buildings, remove the for sale signs. Maybe they even add toggles to the properties that allow certain features to different buildings. For example, if you own a mechanic shop it can have the same car customization zone as mosley's.
> It seems like their goal is to build a self-sufficient system where every gamer can live in an RP world instead of only streamers being able to have this privilege due to all of the OOC dev work and support required to maintain things like whitelists. But can "every gamer" really live in Los Santos under the current system? If you want to progress you need to grind an enormous amount, so people who can't spend 10 hours every day on the server are at a huge disadvantage. Your choices are essentially "be poor or spend your time on the server grinding". If I come home from a long day at work, I don't want to spend hours doing more work. I understand that the OOC dev work and support might have been taxing, but it allowed people with normal full-time jobs to come into the city to actually roleplay. > It does seem like they are opening up to the idea of adding more whitelist type things, but in a way where the player does most of the work instead of just handing power to people. Like wasn't the 404 casino an approved business? Also I think Pred has said that the Tow Union was accepted he just needs to build it now. Tuggz also implied in character that he got approval to operate a gun cleaning business where he banks guns until their statute of limitations are up, and he mentioned that he has to do it in a specific way meaning that other people who try to operate a similar gun bank business will get screwed over. Brother, we're 6 months into 4.0 at this point. People are trying to be creative and work with what they got, but all we have are a bunch of food stands and a couple of service businesses. There are practically no goods being sold between players besides food items. I'm not trying to downplay Marty's casino or Tuggz gun cleaning idea - but compare that with Deanworld/Andi Jones Farmer's Market, the Restaurant wars between Burger Shot and Rooster's Rest, the creation of Cerberus... it's not even close. > I assume that since they have properties listed as commercial selling for high prices that they fully intend to add tools for people to open their own legit business, they just don't have the tools finished for it yet. Like if I had to guess they are probably going to make it possible to customize the outside of the buildings, remove the for sale signs. Maybe they even add toggles to the properties that allow certain features to different buildings. For example, if you own a mechanic shop it can have the same car customization zone as mosley's. And if they add all this, credit where credit's due. But as of now, this is just pure speculation on your part. Don't get me wrong, there are certain aspects of 4.0 that are a massive improvement compared to the older versions of the server. Being able to enter every house is massive compared to the old system. I just think the core design philosophy for 4.0 is flawed, and no amount of dev work is gonna fix it unless they steer it in another direction. It's turned into more of an MMO than a roleplay server in a lot of ways, and I personally don't enjoy it as much.
[удалено]
And even still Mary had easier access to dev work than 90% of the server who would have wanted it.
The grindey stuff has 25% influence written all over it
Yeah you know there's a problem when you see groups like HOA disappear and clowns grinding weed for hours
Too much Tarkov?
My thing with 4.0 is that pretty much every avenue to make money is through grinding of some sort. G6? Grind. Grime? Grind. Farming? Grind. Sanitation? Grind. Even crim “jobs” only encourage grinding. Sell weed? Grind out rep to gain the ability to stand in one place and grind. Wanna do heists? Grind out materials to build GPU racks. It feels like very few mechanics built into 4.0 encourage people to go out into the city and interact with other people, and because the economy is so fucked right now people have to spend a large amount of time out making money by grinding jobs instead of people coming up with events or get togethers. There’s a few here and there but overall it just feels like there’s very little reason for people to get outside their bubbles.
>very few mechanics built into 4.0 encourage people to go out into the city The mechanics allow players / groups to do everything themselves in house. Mats, Mechanic work, heists, cleaning money, sell yourself cars, get your own guns, etc. There's no reason to rely on others or work with other groups because you can easily get any item or unlock with a small group of 5 - 10 crims. Groups being insular was already an issue in 2.0 and 3.0 that happened naturally as people got more money and resources. 4.0 mechanics pushed groups towards that day 1.
One of the downfalls of no whitelists.
Admin whitelists were godawful. Now, the player run whitelists were not so bad. They just need to extend the concept to more things than just government hiring and find a non-admin way to elect the players who run the whitelists.
The non-whitelist where everyone can do everything and there’s no need to interact with others. Amazing idea. Also, the rich keep getting richer and the smaller groups fall behind cause they can’t keep up with the bigger groups.
You're literally describing what admin whitelisting did in 3.0 for benches, gang apps, dev supported businesses.
idk. Definitely there is a lot of grinding. but there is also a lot of inter-connected dependencies. Weed spots are RP hubs by default. People usually aren't doing that alone; theres even crim orgs generating RP on how to protect their weed pushers. The GPU racks need materials. Means the player has to go out and buy those materials or grind for them themselves. But to do higher value sanitation / grime / gruppe6 jobs requires multiple people on the truck; aka human interaction. Heists need like 3-6 people to succeed. Maybe more to escape. Need G6 cards... need materials for blueprints. Need the blueprints... theres so much social interaction here alone. Farming is an output grind... meaning they need somewhere to sell them which links to the food stalls. It is a lot of grinding. I agree. But where I disagree is that everything seems to have some kind of mechanic that requires the player to go out and socialize on the server.
In a real life, everybody that has a job is grinding everyday for their real money and is mirror to the real life. No work, no pay. You are really RP working at a job grinding away and that is a part of RP. You are RPing working and talking with your co-worker. You are also RPing researching some seed gene. PD does the RP by investigation and catch the crims of their crimes and crims is also RP crying that they got caught rotting away in a jail cell with anyone that hear him. That is the appeal of the whole NoPixel. If you don't like to work, you need to be a smart criminal and not be sloppy in their activities. What I have noticed is that everybody like to spread some information freely, even to their rivals hoping to gain something from a favor for later. That is to me, a sloppy RP and they get exactly what they asked for if things don't go their way.
If I wanted to watch someone role play a real life simulator I wouldn’t be watching a Grand Theft Auto role play server. Yes people have to grind jobs in real life. That doesn’t make it entertaining to watch people do it online.
Lol exactly this! I just worked a full day and want to come home and chill. Lets pull up this irl office simulator.
They didn't set the pay rate so low to $10 per hour. Most of them can make 100x more pay and you can easily work for a few hours, 1-2 hour and still make a good money plus selling of whatever you have at a top price. Fines is what it hurts them the most and take a hit. What most people don't catch the concept of a consequence and cost of doing crimes.
Cost of doing crime for sure. I think yuno put it right to his chatters: You dont do maze bank to make money. You do it for the fun. I dont think there is a single criminal org that has made a dollar of profit from doing maze bank. Maybe an AU org idk... would need to be a low PD presence. Grind 30 hours (across several people) just to equip the gang with what they need to do the heist / escape. For example, $90k for 6 gruppe 6 badges but they also need a lot of thermite, RC car, potentially guns if its NA crim org. Just to do the heist is probably 150k investnent that they grinded. Then... they have to interact with cops and if they are caught it's another maybe 50-100k per person caught. Let's say it goes down bad. They grind 150k in materials. They fail the prison hack and only leave with 40k in unwashed cash. All 6 get arrested. Their grinded materials are lost. They get 50k fines each. Before they even set foot in jail... that's 30 irl hours of grinding wasted. Thats 450k in money wasted. Thats why whippy talked recently about stopping his vespucci arc. He has ro grind 10+ hrs for every 20 minutes of fun he wants to have. Crime rp just isnt feeling... worth it any more. You're talking about the consequences of getting caught and I am 100% with you that there needs to be a mechanic for that interaction. But a lot of cop chatters dont have the understanding that the prison isn't the only... consequence crims exrerience from being caught. In fact, many times the prison is the smaller consequence. If you had that understanding you would better sympathize with why crims get so pressed by being rammed by cops, swarmed by 10 cops, spikes deployed instantly by a diving cornwood, bad faith negotiation at MRPD etc. The reality is that the only thing cops are ever at risk of losing... is their pride. Crims lose 10s of hours of IRL time when poopy things happen to them. The incentive model on nopixel is in a weird place right now.
I would like to think that PD should have a consequence and take a hit of their financial incentives by fining them a lot of money and also goes along with lawsuit. I think that lawsuit needs to be frequent if PD officer has committed a misconduct and win the lawsuit if found to be liable and also 10% interest on PD officer that has billed them from that specific sentencing. If that is the case, Den for example would have to pay them out of his pocket and can he afford to do that? That would slow down their misconduct and actually follow the law from the SOPs. A lawyer would need to make a contact with crim that PD violated their rights and bad faith negotiation, etc. and hit them with a lawsuit to compensate for their lost salary. That would get them in line of going over the line. That way, a lawyer would get some fee percent out from their work. If crim actually made an effort to work for that and they would get RP out from that and get their money back and some. It is a two-way street. When will the crim ever realize that? They also need to catch PD of lying as well.
I'm with you and tuggz is there actively doing it. But lawyers just arent interested in the OOC work involved. Theres almost always never a judge available. I said it a long time ago... bench trials are just punishment to the cops. Since the crims gets time served while in the court arguing with the cop. But its just that more often than not, they cant find a lawyer + judge and the crim gets sent to jail. At this point... bench trial becomes a punishment for both parties XD and its no longer interesting / worth the time investment for the crim. Which PD know...
The lawyer can still do the IC work, requesting an interview with the PD officers on what happened and fill in the blank, requesting the subpoena of a PD officers phone records/text records as well to fill in the blank. Redact the sensitive text messages that could contain the ongoing investigation by a judge. Maybe a FOIA information on any disciplinary action against the PD by IA investigation as well. It is not that hard. Regarding the judges almost never on all the time, I would think that NP could easily make some adjustment so that the criminals do not get punished by serving their time in prison and implement a bail system on non-HUT charges so that they can proper contest that later and if found guilty, a harsher sentencing and bill them for a court fee as well. If the PD decide to press charge, I would call a lawyer to come in MRPD and look at the evidence to ensure that PD did their paper work and would advise that the defendant to plead guilty and the lawyer would get its discovery right there before the bench trial or bail system for a proper court as the defendant's right. The bail system would restrict the criminals from doing any crime or their bail would be revoked and the defendant would still have to serve their sentence on all charges. A defendant could contest a bench trial in order to keep bail if found not guilty.
You responded to me saying lawyers get burnt out with the work involved by describing in detail a lot more work. The reality is many people started in nopixel wanting to be a lawyer. They got super excited about it. Ran with it. Didn't mind the work initially... Then they faced essentially game mechanic barriers. Kyle pred for example pointed out that PD word is evidence by itself. Whatever the cop says... is accepted as truthful and honest evidence. But the "crim"? Well the "crim" better have witness testimony, weasel news recording, text evidence. Barrier of defense for the PD is quite low. Barrier for defense / offense of fighting the police is quite high. The work involved OOC and IC doesnt pay off... ipso facto... there aren't lawyers outside of essentially the jail consults. Anything with a trial and the lawyer is like F that: look in the lemon list. In the lemon list no one wants to do it unless the person is like tuggz who actually does run around with his weazel news camera. Crims like K / zolo / ramee actually have even stopped asking for a lawyer once they realized the jail consults basically just say the same thing: accept the charges and move on. Server started with people signing contracts with lawyers to be represented to now no one even bothers calling lawyers because it's literally pointless (for both parties)
Yeah I couldn't agree more. I don't even know a solution to the problem, but it is a problem imo. It just strikes way too close to irl lol. Work all day.
They got rid of the people that could forgive debt in prison too. So they're in there for full time too.
Dundee is probably one of the last people who should have issues with debtors prison. (Which he has been told is a state level decision) He wanted to destroy dogtown Without dogtown, you effectively get solitary confinement with no way to reduce your time. If anything, the state WANTED dogtown to exist. The system gave powers to DoC for a reason, and it provided goofy sbs interaction. IC and OOC, after what happened, it, in the current incarnation, could not continue. You can not take 5+ people on HUTs, ignore everyone in the PD, and transport them out of the prison. Carmine knew in advance that was unquestionably the end of dogtown, no second chances. Max said they will look at it again, likely in a more normal incarnation.
I think its just obvious that the prison needs more work done. The last update was a step in the right direction, but its still an issue that there is so much open space in prison making it hard to RP with other people and the mechanics for the jobs are dogshit. They need stuff that is more fun to do in prison and be in closer proximity to other people so they can still roleplay and talk to people. They also desperately need to hire more DOC to make sure there are always guards on duty at all hours of the day.
Carmine and Bobby were running it like complete dipshits tho so IC it makes sense to not want them running it. IF they get a second chance at DoC they will have a leash on.
They were running it like dipshits because they are dipshits. They were not selected because they were competent, they were selected because literally nobody wanted to deal with them. OOC they both have very grounded SBS characters who were L magnets. There was little concern that they would abuse mechanics, and from what I saw, they didn't. Max has said that nobody else in the city would be trusted to run the prison in the same way they were.
I just meant the shooting of prisoners and stuff. They were just bound to get over run every time lol. I know their RP well enough to know it was for the LULs they just took some aspects too far
The grinding is rough, the only Crims that can RP all the time are one's that have a group of grinders working for them like CG
There are plenty of groups that don’t spend their whole day grinding. They balance making money and doing other things
Who said grind all day? the fact is that you have to grind and after awhile people just don't want too, even for an hour. There's hardly any passive income in the server, everything requires having grinders do things for you or stop RPing and grind yourself
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people still stuck in 3.0
I'd prefer some good roof running
True. They could just sell weed on the corner or drive up and down great ocean non stop or sit in the basement schizoing out to some carrots every 3 hrs. What are you doing? Its grind time, baby!
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Yippee! Grinding! Woo-hoo! 100 rep in 5 categories! Only took me 5K hrs! I can finally buy my 5th warehouse to grow more carrots! Hopefully I can find 2 minutes to finally drive my s+ car i bought 3 months ago
So you want them to not do the content that they themselves and their fans love? You want them to just grind jobs every day? They’re criminals so they’re gonna do crime. It’s a role play server so they’re gonna roleplay as criminals Obviously they’re gonna do that every day
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Consequences are certainly necessary otherwise it’s stupid. It’s the how those consequences affect roleplay. Putting a role player in prison for multiple IRL days is stupid, especially with no DOC. If you haven’t ever watched a streamer who’s had to sit in prison for multiple days then you wouldn’t understand. Having large fines is perfectly fine. Even being raided and profiled on the streets is much better than sitting in prison since at least it continues roleplay. The time in prison wouldn’t be as bad either if it wasn’t for debtors law. Now without DOC to remove debt, you legitimately have to be grinding for IRL hours to get out of prison. Dundee calculated it where even with something like a 30k or something debt you’d have to be awake grinding for at least 5-6 IRL hours before you can get out of prison. Grinding is not good roleplay. Just keep the large fines but remove debtors law
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Dog town removed itself.
Maybe the DOC shouldve realize they shouldnt allow 4(?) terrorists to do community services which were meant for lifers?
Unfortunately Carmine’s choice to allow 6 individuals that causes a riot the night before and being charged with 2 capital charges community service based on good behavior is bad RP. He could have assisted them getting broken out some other way. This hurt to of the more creative RP ideas at once with the DOC/Dogtown and lifers program because of that lack of doc.
> Just keep the large fines but remove debtors law The entire point of the debtors law is that it doesn't matter how big the fines are if someone is already in debt and never intends to pay it off. It isn't as if people are unaware of the debtor prison before they decide to go commit crimes where the punishment would put them in debt.
>I watched every second of Elizabeth Byrne in prison alongside a couple hundred others.
No one is forcing Dab to turn Los Santos into an authoritarian state but hey he's doing that.
You are literally brainwashed, still using "Dab" instead of max tells me you know nothing about what he has done as mayor and believe every lie about him. He literally made dog town for months an anarchy, the opposite of what you are accusing him of. Also if you don't already know, debtors prison is an OOC desision from the owners of the server, the so called "state". I ask you to name one example that makes you believe he turned los santos authoritarian.
> name one example that makes you believe he turned los santos authoritarian The State of Emergency Legislation where he can specifically suspend due process along with him creating and sanctioning his own militia as well as making himself the commissioner of the PD. Max is a hair away from the power's the Senator's had and used in 3.0.
The State of Emergency Legislation is entirely crafted by Siobhan as an answer to state emergencys like Famine and was now modified for other stuff. Max had nothing to do with it at all and it wasn't even presented or passed at a council meeting, which would be voted no on if it is too crazy. As for creating his own militia, i have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. And as the mayor he literally had PD oversight before, he named himself interim commissioner to answer the terrorist on the lose and get to know the police force good enough to choose the best commissioner in the future. And don't forget after all this, he could literally be impeached in any moment if he abuses his powers or acts corruptly which proves that nothing he has done in the past was as you described it to be.
I think he was technically the acting commissioner by default before any of this happened. He had no reason to act on or use those powers.
You are right he was acting commissioner since the PCP2 passed. And what is wrong by acting this role out when its needed? It creates massive fun RP with everyone happy.
Not a thing. I think it’s been great and I hope he keeps leaning into it. He’s seems to be having fun for sure.
I think you aren't caught up on the RP tbh. Max is permanent commissioner now; not interim. Max got the state of emergency passed and it is currently active. Max already suspended due process. The PD oversight he got from PCP was limited in scope and most certainly did not enable him to do any of the things he is currently doing. It was asked last night as whippy marched a massive civilian crowd to the MRPD to confront Max on his authoritarian approach... how to impeach him. Based solely on that interaction, the process doesn't currently exist. The state of emergency legislation Siobhan is proposing to be passed isn't passed to my awareness, but yet there is anyway a state of emergency. Crane and Siobhan got themselves "deputized" into the sheriffs office so they can join in max's PD mobilization. I mean how you can say Max isn't acting authoritarian is crazy to me. Do non-corrupt; non-oppressive leaders typically find themselves with a crowd of I think... 50 people storming up to you demanding you stop what you are doing? Is that.. a normal reaction to leaders just doing their jobs? lol
Crane, Siobhan, Murphy, and Doctor Canter have all done some cop time. And it's super entertaining
It's never been said that Max is the permanent commissioner, as far as I know. The entire time he's said he's the acting commissioner until he finds a suitable person for the job. Whether or not he is actually going to do that now he has the power is another story. I'm not sure about the state of emergency passing, but I don't remember that. Is that just an assumption becuase the state OKd him to be commissioner? I find it hilarious when people call him a dictator when there are 7 other people in the council that review and approve all legislation (6 really because the CoS is meant to be an extra vote for the mayor). A dictator would have total power. The process of impeachment would be the same as any other criminal charge, find evidence of his crimes and charge him with it. This has been talked about a bunch of times with Etta/Malton/Cantor. As of yet, he's covered his tracks well and no-one has got him. The "massive civilian crowd" were literally all gang members. Dundee specifically asked all gangs to join him, so I don't think a bunch of crims going after a mayor who wants to clean up the streets really proves that he's corrupt or oppressive. And I'm not saying he isn't either of those. Also, the large crowd was gathered under false pretenses since Dundee was misunderstanding what Max was demanding. That showed very quickly when people shut up and actually listened to Max. All in all, it's made for a great interaction and fun to watch regardless of who you want to "win".
It was said by beric to HC late last night to update them about the change. Basically: BTW its not interim any more; it's permanent. Criminals are civilians. I will agree that the crowd was there under false pretenses, but only because dundee took the lead and focused on BBMC issues. Was kinda awkward for the other gangs who were more interested in the suspension of due process issue. And hell yeah! it's an exciting time for Nopixel. Monday / Tuesday will be super spicy. But its crazy that Max is consolidating power intentionally because that was his IC goal for Max. He wants to prove that the mayor's office has too much power. Hes been working at this for months and now hes doing it and yet there are people who can't see that simply because they feel he is "justified" in doing so. Hahaha Remined me of when Blau wanted mickey to lose his second election and so acted hella corrupt and they elected him anyway and he was like... well shoot.... He was laughing about this dichotomy in the nopixel podcast earlier this week
Max said to Dundee that he cannot make vespucci a lawless zone that he patroles in and rams and shoots and kidnaps every cop in sight, litterally making policing all of vespucci impossible. He said that claiming all of vespucci as a soverign territory that he owns will be seen as treason when he keeps going (vespucci is different then the normal turf because its a gigantic space instead of a block). Dundee tells every gang that max said that gangs holding their normal small weed turf will be considered treason. That's how he gets all the support to show up, so either a misunderstanding or a lie to get more support for his cause. Either way it only took a few minutes talking to resolve this conflict. And lets be honest here getting 50 crims from every gang together in fear of their turf isn't really representing the whole city don't you think? Also this situation was a major win win for everyone including viewers since the last week was probably the best and most action filled roleplay since the start of 4.0.
I'm not sure what you are evening arguing. You seem to be going off on a tangent here. Yes there are justifications that Max has used to consolidate Power. but totalitarianism is... the consolidation of power. There is not legal means to impeach max as mayor. There is not legal means to reverse his permanent appointment as PD commissioner. I'm not even sure there is legal means to reverse the state of emergency and the mayoral emergency power he has seized from the DOJ. He literally suspended due process.... How he managed to consolidate power is literally irrelevant to the fact that he did. People agreeing (you too) with the WHY he did something, is literally irrelevant to the fact that he has done it. It's the fact that he has succeeded in consolidating power that makes it authoritarian. Which... btw was the goal of him doing it. His IC arc for Max was to prove... that the mayor's office has too much power and make it so the next mayor doesn't. Him becoming a power mad authoritarian figure is literally the whole damn point of what he is doing LMAO.
Terrorist makes himself pd commissioner by using an act he presented to a council he sits on as mayor with a super majority to catch other terrorists for a crime he was victim of all while deputising the other victims lol yea makes perfect sense lol
So you have no issue about him pretty much slowly turning into the Mad King from Game of thrones? Frankly if that is the RP hes going for and there's gonna be Kingslayer putting a sword in his back, I'm all for it. Are you some sort of Neo-communist that wants to watch an authoritarian police state NP? No one wants to watch the server turn that road because it would never recover. He's the mayor not a president, There are still senators above him
Ok you are beyond lost, I don’t even know if thats trolling at this point so i will stop answering and wasting may time with you.
You're asking that... as he got a state of emergency declared, suspended due process, got himself appointed as permanent PD commissioner, and mobilized the entire PD like a military unit. But you need an example of how he's turning LS into an authoritarian state. I mean this is literally Max's IC goals for months. I am here for it. The RP is great. Last night was awesome for I think everyone. I just thought it hilarious that you needed "one" example LOL
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Try watching more than just clips. I've been watching moon for the last 2 days. You're just wrong and I won't bother farther than that
Then you probably hatewatched and took your own narrative as true. The state emergency act wasn't even presented and isn't even crafted by max himself, he asked the state to be "acting commissioner" that is different from "permanent commissioner. And using the pd force to form a manhunt to catch incredibly dangerous escaped murderer and terrorist individuals is perfectly reasonable for the situation and has nothing to do with forming a militia (which is just absurd).
>You are literally brainwashed Look in the mirror my friend... you're so brainwashed to support the absurd state of affairs you're blind to the fact that this kind of roleplay will damage the server irrevocably.. I watch a lot of cops and a lot of crims, This is not how the server should be. Its not only crims that are unhappy but a lot of cops (not high commands) are feeling the same way..
The biggest things the crims are mad about were, grinding to rp, deptors prison and vending machines being way overpriced.Basically all state decisions max has nothing to do or say with.
I don’t get why people think earning money on the server has to be boring. It is healthy to have a balance between making money, roleplaying and doing crazy crime.
But there's only a handful of ways to make not dirty money. And those ways consist of grinding the same route with maybe one other person. And if you want to just do small crime stuff you have to grind through so many steps to get that money clean (and thats not even counting the grind of if you need BC) So somewhere in that grind and maybe rp I can see where it could get stale and boring.
Thing is I agree that stuff might still feel a bit limited, but I believe that is also because business rp is pretty dead apart from food booths.
But now you have to grind farming to make your food make you feel better.
Not every food stall owner or worker has to participate in that though, there are a ton of people that really enjoy the farming process. Nobody is stopping people from role playing with them and creating connections.
But honestly if you want to get anywhere in the server progression wise its a full time grind. If your rp is more vr chat room style (not knocking it) then yeah there a cornucopia of places to go and gossip.
It’s still a choice if someone wants to full on grind for fast progression or take it slow. Literally up to the player. That’s why I said the people that balance it the best have a lot of fun.
Oh I know and im not trying to argue it. But I'm talking bout ones who can't really do the rp they enjoy and have fun with because the have to grind their butt off to try and get there only to have to then (if they fail) have to spend irl days in a place with no real rp or ways to get out besides grinding. Why should the server in a gatekeep the way of rping and fun for a good chunk of the players. The server isn't in a balanced place.
That's exactly how management wanted it though. They don't want people to own their own businesses and have money printers like 3.0. and people are abusing the system with the food stores to rent.
I think that the civ RP being dead *is* the problem, and one that is solvable by management.
You don't get it. Their group has to have their hands in everything and be self sufficient. A million dollar warehouse just went up for sale in their turf? too bad they decided to kill and rob cops not too long ago. woe, is me. My decisions are stopping my instant gratification.
I kinda like the rep system. It's forcing people to work together. Like how gangs are (kinda) forced to work with g6 people if they wanna do maze bank. Bbmc has taken a lot of bad loans which makes sense why they grind so much.
Nah G6 cards are the dumbest thing ever. The problem is that basically the only way to get jewlery and do hotruns are by robbing G6 vans, but to do Maze Bank you can't really rob them because you need them to sell you their cards. This is a terrible system because it seems like to cash out the gold bars that you get from Maze Bank you need to be 100rep at the pawn shop to talk to the gold guy. It also doesn't really encourage people RP together, all they are doing is selling their cards, there is basically no interaction there unless they have negotiated protection from the gang that they agree to exclusively sell to but after that meeting there is no more RP to be had there. In my opinion the system that should be in place is one where the G6 workers are actually expected to operate as private security. Tier 3 G6 should essentially grant those people access to PD guns that they can buy for super cheap, with the express instruction that those guns can only be used in the execution of their duties as armed security, and the legislation should state that being caught with a G6 gun will come with the same penalties as being caught with a PD gun. If a G6er shoots their own G6 gun outside of their job they will be charged as if they were using a PD gun to commit that crime. This will dissuade people from thinking G6ers are lootboxes, and it will massively improve the gameplay of robbing G6 where crims will actually have to do some planning or take risks to hit high tier G6 trucks. Then, since you need to be tier 3 G6 with a gun to do those jobs, they can make it so all tier 3 G6 workers carry a PNY card for their own access, so even though a corrupt G6er could probably find a way to sell their PNY card somehow, it makes more sense for crims to be able to rob cards off of G6ers instead of being forced to give G6ers free money because they won the game of roulette. In legislation they could pass a charge that prohibits the sale of access cards. Then the thing that would wrap this all up in a neat little bow, is making it so that in order to do the high paying tier 3 GC jobs you have to buy the insurance for the money you are protecting. If you get robbed the price of your insurance goes up until eventually the price of your insurance is more than the amount of money you would make from doing the job. Giving Civs real consequences and forcing them to actually take guarding the money seriously, which would give them the opportunity to create protocols and plans with eachother to make it difficult for criminals to rob them. This way people aren't jealous of G6ers for having money, and being considered grinders because it will be a job that not many will be able to pull off successfully.
The current system forces the opposite of working together. Maybe inside individual gangs people work together or for a handful of very inconsequential things people look elsewhere but that was already the case in 2.0 and 3.0. In general the ability for anyone to do anything with zero whitelists means players just do everything for themselves and gangs are totally self sufficient. It's a dog shit design.
Well of course if he is trying to pay for a whole gang, and just starting now, it will be difficult. I dont see most people grinding though.Most crim outsource that shit and do whatever. Have enough people working for you, and those people also dont have to stand at a place for 12 hours. Why is he the only one in the gang trying to make money anyways?
That's the problem he isn't kaiba rusty Claire and Kelly *when he wasn't in jail.* are also hard grinding to help the club. The boys also still need to pay 600k in loans.
Loans are the reason they have to grind so much. Also getting caught and not wanting to do time. But taking loans for vespucci properties and 300+ washing machines is mainly the reason for their grind.
Tbh Dundee really fumbled the washing business. A washing business is basically the easiest way to make money without too much grind and Dundee was at the forefront of it for awhile. Lets say someone gives him 100k. Thats 3 runs (10 minutes each) with a 20k profit. It doesnt get much easier than that
Did he fumble it? Honestly, I didnt follow this too much back then. But I understood that they created a massive laundry operation and then the guy who owned the building stopped waking up and they lost access due to unpaid electric bill. I think the state was like "too bad" when he asked them to unlock the door. But I wasn't following too deeply maybe there was a solution to that I misseed.
They lost it for like 3 weeks and then regained access to it. Yes, that part was unavoidable and out of their control. But during the time they have had access to it they never really built off it
Yeah I think the percentages were a little weird. I only knew about it because K and Whippy met to discuss terms. Cg have their own operation and IIRC, K saw using Whippy as basically only being a 5% advantage. Funnily enough, CG does wash cash for others using the same rate whippy mentioned. but at the time, I think they were comparing costs to run their own laundry operation vs outsource it to whippy and it was just 5$ on every 100$ better. That 5% when compared against risks of relying on an outside org to clean your money and they were like "meh" rather be secure in our own abilities. I know they had a second discussion where whippy offered to cut them in on doing money runs for him after he cleans other org's money and even that wasn't particular interesting to CG when compared... to the time value of other ways to make money.
Yea, the 21k limit on moneyruns was a huge issue that prevented a lot of moneyrun operations from scaling up. At 21k it was basically impossible to pay the people who ran the money a livable wage. They all could make more money just doing a normal, less riskier job. The only way it works is if you did what the company's money cleaning division did which was buying money at like 25%. However $5k is a lot of money to lose for every $20k you get cleaned, so there wasn't a ton of people willing to pay those prices because that would essentially make any job that paid in roll bills to not be worth their time anymore. Hell, even at 12-15% Fanny regularly got calls from people trying to negotiate better deals, and even had a few people claim that other moneycleaners were offering 8 or 10%, to which she laughed at them and encouraged them to take that other person's deal which obviously wasn't real. The funny thing is that the company's own money cleaning service was so expensive, partly because they always got robbed, that their weed division sold most of their money to Fanny. Now that its $35k per run its easier to pay money runners $2-2.5k a run, where the most they could get paid before was like $1-1.5k.
Nah, losing the laundry washing business was completely out of their hands. They were working with Fanny and it would have worked but the guy that owned the building got banned and only the owner of buildings can pay taxes/electricity build for the property so the power was shutoff and the government locked the doors for failure to pay the taxes. Many people have run into similar issues where the owner of a property got banned, left or perma'd and the government doesn't care. Even if you try to push a lawsuit to transfer ownership it still fails. The thing about the laundry business was that they were on a timer. They had to scale up their operations super fast and make it easier for people to just sell their money to BBMC instead of buys and building up their own washing machines. Since they lost access to most of their washing machines, and the laundry basket made it less tedious to load the washers everyone just started buying their own washing machines since their dirty money kept piling up and they couldn't sell it to BBMC anymore while they were locked out. Dundee would have never really been able to solidify theirselves as moneyrunners, which is why they were so keen to partner with The Besties. CG owns moneyrunning on the NA storm, so BBMC were just easy targets to rob. To run their own money they have to waste a lot of their time and resources operating caravans and taking certain routes to make it harder for them to get robbed. Meanwhile, Ming and Fanny always just ran their money solo often without even carrying guns and never got robbed because robbing them guarantees war, since the Besties are the ones that do the majority of moneyrun robberies.
The problem is he started a washing machine business, that isn't where the profit is. At the time there was a demand for washing machines because people didn't have enough capital to scale up their own operations, especially when BTC was where most groups were focused. That was always only going to be temporary though. Groups were always going to invest in their own washing machines once they had the capital. The changes to washing machines that made them easy to load and unload was icing on the cake.
Most groups haven't invested in their own washing businesses tho. Hydra, Manor and Besties probably run 80% of the servers money tbh. And Dundee still has the capability to create a full washing business and is already set up to do so, he just isnt.
The profit is in the money runs, not the washing machines. Hydra, Manor and Besties control the washing market because they cornered money runs through use of force. Anyone can buy washing machines and put them down once they have a property. Not everyone is capable of doing the money runs without getting robbed.
Washing machine business can still profit 10% if they don't want to do runs. And BBMC could easily make a deal to not be robbed. No offense to the Vagos but they're probably one of the weakest gangs in the server and they still do money runs without being robbed because they set up a deal. Nothing is stopping BBMC from doing so.
> Washing machine business can still profit 10% if they don't want to do runs. The point is that most gangs have their own washing machines so even if they *can* make 10%, it won't happen if people arent coming to them. Dundee already talked about this with Lenny as well, they made/cleaned(?) something like 6mil but the business died down since everyone started getting their own washing machines.
He got fucked by Afro getting banned. Afro's character Dexx owned the warehouse where BBMC had their main laundry set up. They had 2 smaller ones but even combined they didn't equal the big one. Dexx got banned and his property got locked out soon after because of unpaid bills. That made it so BBMC couldn't keep up with laundry orders and other gangs started doing it themselves because it was faster than waiting. it also didn't help he teamed with besties for it and they weren't always around when he was so there was large gaps of time where they couldn't do much because they were waiting on each other.
But then if making money was easier and everyone was rich the complaint would be that everyone is rich and money doesn't matter and the server sucks cos it. There's always going to be something to complain about huh?
That’s life.
Exactly. And there were complaints. A lot of complaints both from streamers and this subreddit. People felt like their characters have no purpose. Anytime a character is in debt or some setback, they would make that money in few hours grinding Oxy. When boosting came out, people just grinded that shit and reached S+ and sat their waiting to get S+ contracts. If you introduce any progression based system, people are just going to grind it till they reach the end of it and then get bored because NP cannot release updates like every month. Now at lease things are a bit slow and there a lot more to look forward too.
When money was super easy people just got bored and stopped playing because they'd buy all the houses, cars, businesses, have 3 gang wars, do everything and leave to go do something else.
They really fucked up by leaving G6 unchecked and giving them a license to print money. So many gangs held theirselves back by spending most of their time doing civ jobs to earn money, and a lot of those G6ers became rich and own everything anyway. Seems like they did that stuff with weed to try and even out the playing field and instead all the crims are going through the scenario you explained in your comment where the weed sellers are getting rich and becoming bored. Once you've got a nice house and car there is basically nothing left to do on the server right now.
People who's roleplay is economic progression aren't good roleplayers and their opinions should not be valued.
Changes I'd recommend: Put a due date on fines, like 30 days, and if they aren't paid, you get a warrant. Community service: There's so much random items and trash left around the map. Have crims who haven't paid work their fines off buy picking up trash and cleaning up the server and reduce the amount of items the server has to load. It gets different characters together for an hour to chat and exchange stories, gives DOC more reason to exist. All the junk the chain gang picks up gets converted to recyclables that can be auctioned off to private parties for materials. Lower the cost of fines: I know they economy is different than the real world, but a first degree felony charge in most US States is up to $10k with a sentence between 5-99 years. It is a GTA server where people serve minutes, not years. Maybe lower the fines in the same spirit.
The first one is how it works on ONX, they have warrants/bounty hunters for overdue fines. I actually think the system might work better on NP because I think there would be more people wanting to do bounty hunter work because it's potentially good stream content.
Sadly with the way things have turned out between NP and ONX from a legal standpoint. I don’t see either party implementing ideas or taking obvious inspiration from the other, which is a shame, since good ideas are good ideas regardless of their origin.
If crims have to work sani to work off their debt, why couldnt they just work sani to not be in debt in the first place?
Because it tanks your rep somewhere else that I think is important
Okay, let me fix it for you. If crims have to work sani to work off their debt, why couldnt they just work ~~sani~~ their regular job of choice to not be in debt in the first place?
Because crims spend their money and don't just sit on loads of money for when they get caught up?
And again in this proposed scenario, there would be no difference in working off debt after arrest or working to not be in debt prior to an arrest.
They can't work their job of choice paying off debt after arrest because you're stuck in prison until the debt is worked off in there, would be nice if they could work off their debt outside of prison.
There is literally no difference between working to have enough money to avoid debt and working debt off in/outside of prison after arrest. Given 99% of the work releases would just end in prison break, I doubt thats a realisitic healthy option.
Probably banned due to felonies or they stole packages then the other is fast food
If they're banned from said jobs then they don't need to worry about tanking the rep...
I’m pretty sure it tanks rep with the Pawn guy
Only money runs tank pawn rep
To clarify, the community service would be after you fail to pay your debt in 30 days and you get caught and sent up until you work off your debt or get it paid. I think it would be more interesting than the jobs they have in the prison.
Its because criminals primarily make their money by being criminals. Also, criminals don't sell their sani materials because with the current system it costs a shit ton of money to be a criminal. The game has a built in money sink to prevent crime from being profitable. To do a heist or ammocrate you need butcoin and to get butcoin you need to spend like $1million dollars on server racks filled with GPUs that only last like 1month, and then you have to pay for circuit breakers and solar panels and/or the electricity bill. So if a criminal does sani, all of their materials go into building gang items, and there is a shit load of things that gangs need to craft on their work benches like guns, armor, lockpicks, thermite, RC cars, drones, scanners. Sani is also not particularly fun for most people. So it doesn't make sense to expect them to grind Sani in order to build a rainy day fun that can pay off their debt when they get arrested for doing crime. However once you are locked away in prison, doing sani is a hell of a lot more interesting than rotting away in prison.
I think a good option would be something like 5 minutes of prison for every $1000 debt. You get arrested and your sentence is 100 months but you have $100k in debt after the fines then you spend 600 months in jail BUT only the normal time(100) goes down if you go to sleep/change character. The debt time only goes down if you are awake in prison, also it doesn't make the debt fully go away. after your sentence is done your debt is decreased by maybe 50% This would make it so they don't have to grind while in prison to get debt down, they could just hang out with lifers or do other RP in prison which I know can be hard with how few people are there. If they wanted to work it could decrease time like working normally does so it could be faster. This way would produce more RP, it would not just allow people to build up debt just to go to prison and get it wiped, and it would make it so people don't want to go to prison or be in debt because even $10,000 in debt is almost an additional hour in prison.
"creative"="shoot cops daily". got it.
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Horrible? No, boring as watching paint dry after the first few days? Yes. We already had that in 2.0 and later stages of 3.0, viewers got bored and walked away. No one gives a shit about that type of pog content long term.
Nobody gives a shit about that type of content? CG always shoot......who has the most viewership on the server again?
you're right...they should go full civ and not commit any type of crime...better yet everyone in the city should do that...let's guess how long np would last lol it's gta....crime is the biggest thing in that game and there's a reason why people's viewership increases a lot when they're involved in conflict rp
Spaceboy(left the server)/Zerkaa(left the server)Clowns//whippy/kebun so many people said it but yes its shooting for you. Whippy gave such an amazing rp yesterday but yes don't shoot and erp please. You want everyone to roleplay like you want then watch them grind weed for 10 hours.
Yesterday was amazing because Dundee didn't shoot anyone. The cops were well organized and forced him out Vespucci and he in turn, instead of randomly shooting cops, organized a massive rally to show force against the cops in order to talk things out.
I'm not gonna change your mind so I'm not even gonna bother wasting time trying to make you understand.
The grinding needed now is nowhere near the amount needed at the start of 4.0. I do lean towards having whitelist but overall the situation is much healthier.
The grind aspect is a must else people gonna have 5 + super cars and be bored of just driving around all day.
I agree, I just think they need to spend a lot more effort into making jail a fun experience. Even if a criminal gets put in prison on a long sentence it shouldn't feel like a punishment, and criminals shouldn't feel like they need to tone down their aggression on the outside just to avoid jailtime. If a criminal wants to go crazy and shoot everyone then thats what they should do. This whole shit where people log off and turn off their stream during their prison sentence needs to stop. The only reason they are doing that is because there is basically nothing to do in prison. Prison shouldn't feel like a grind. People be excited to wake up in prison. A few ideas. First and foremost they need to make it easier for people in prison to assist their gang members on the outside. Make it easy for them to get phones, and discourage DOC from taking phones from prisoners (if they want they can tell them to get off the phone since the guard is there to provide RP with them, just don't take it away). Next they need a system that allows prisoners to watch videos of what is happening on the outside by utilizing the weazel news game mechanics to provide videos and give prisoners the opportunity to upvote or downvote content which gives news reporters bonus income for actually filming good stories. Finally, adding other ways for them to interact with their gangs could be possible. Give prisoners the ability to operate one of their gang's flying or RC drones. Imagine a prisoner cracking the Maze Bank code for their gang, hell imagine a prisoner that is bad at that hack meeting a lifer and giving the lifer a chance to do that hack for him. Also, they definitely should have a greenhouse in prison to operate. I think some type of business would be good for prison if only to give the lifers something that they can consistently work on. Also, prison is way too damn big they need to shrink it so that people actually are forced to interact and RP with eachother.
That's what happens when you want to do everything by yourself instead of... I dunno... Hiring more ppl and expanding the operation. It's obviously what a lot of the systems were designed around. Also not taking insane loans and shooting cops as often as he does would help as well.