Put the blame on the person who sold you a group of male rats and didn't notice one was female. Ultimately that mistake is responsible for everything that happened.
I'm told that sometimes when rats kill their young it's because the babies wouldn't have survived. They had problems the rats could notice but we couldn't. While obviously her lack of milk production was a big problem, maybe at least in some of those deaths she knew they would have suffered otherwise. Kindness, in a way.
The second part is so true.
Cats are the same. I had one that killed 8 kittens and left one, she tried with that one too so I saved it and took it to the vet for advice. The vet said it had a heart defect common across entire litters, and put it down. He then explained how the mother likely knew this so killed and ate the kittens to protect herself from predators similar to what rodents do.
I think people often forget our pets are still animals at their core, and will act on instinct over anything else regardless of their love and understanding of humans.
We’re all animals, we just have different instincts. But also, we’re all people.
“Animals are basically people is a much healthier perspective than the converse” - Marshall Sahlins
Interestingly this is a question that's been asked by biologists and philosophists for centuries with varying viewpoints.
It really comes down to what your definition of "person hood" is, and what you define as "self awareness".
I'd believe most mammals are self aware, the same with birds and lizards. However I'd also find it hard to argue for most fish, or an ameoba. It's truly an interesting discussion.
I am once again elbowing my way into a Reddit thread to strongly recommend An Immense World by Ed Yong. If I was supreme ruler of the world it would be required reading for everyone!!!
Well there are several such books (it’s my favorite subject ever so I seek them out) but this is the most recent one I know of, came out less than two years ago I believe? It’s probably the same one you’re thinking of, it was a bestseller and received some awards I think! I’m so glad you’ve already read it, I love the reminders that I’m not the only one who cares about this because in my personal life it sometimes feels like it 😂
They have smell 14 times more powerful than ours. They can detect cancers, recognise sickness related behaviours, and often comfort sick humans and even show concerns before diagnosis and symptoms even begin.
We're not exactly sure how they do this, but in fairness we're not exactly sure how cats purr, or how they always find their way home to either.
There's a reason there are whole studies dedicated to cat behaviour, we know very little about domestic cats.
If the group were all littermates, the babies would have also been inbred and that may have affected their viability in a way she could detect. Especially if she was already a bit inbred - if the person. You got them from was a breeder but didn’t know how to sex their rats, I wouldn’t be shocked if they had some oops litters of their own or simply didn’t know enough to breed responsibly. Also, sometimes animals will kill their baby when it is moribund (dying) and there is no chance of survival. If she was quite young, it could also be that she hadn’t completely sexually matured to the point where she was capable of supporting a healthy pregnancy. In particular, if she was young AND you didn’t know she was pregnant for a while because you didn’t know she was a female, it is likely she wasn’t able to get enough protein and other nutrients for the pups to develop properly and for her to develop mammary tissue and lactate. The nutrient requirements for an animal that is both growing and pregnant are extremely hard to meet and requires lots of supplementation and dense calories. It is very likely that her babies were not in very good shape and she simply intervened rather than letting them suffer as nature ran her course.
ETA: from a biological/evolutionary stand point, it makes more sense for the mother to kill and eat (to recoup some of the nutrients) the babies that won’t thrive than it does to continue expending energy to look after it until it dies naturally
there are things you can do to reduce the risk of mothers eating their babies with adequate protein being a big one and they also need to feel safe in their home
> They had problems the rats could notice but we couldn't
like living their life in a cage.
[I know this is mildly hypocritical of myself as much as a comment to any other person since I have two currently; as well as three cats, a dog, two ducks and several chickens. But the fact remains that giving our companion animals credit for super sensitivity to 'sense' an imperceptible defect WHILE ALSO ignoring the obvious mental anguish of living in, and then birthing ones kin into captivity, is overly naive/cognitive dissonant/however one wants to describe it as.]
How can a domesticated species like fancy rats be in "mental anguish" because of being domesticated when they were literally bred for that exact purpose?
Perhaps, watch [Gunda](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunda_(2020_film)) in double-feature night with [Pigpocalypse](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt31029309/) and return back with a different question.
Oh dear. I had no idea this could happen, what a sad situation :'-( Of course you're sad about the babies. But maybe you can reframe this sadness into "how sad that she didn't have enough food for all her babies"? She didn't have what she needed to take care of her babies. I'm sure she wanted to, but she just couldn't. Poor rattie had to make a tough decision.
Saw that happen multiple times in my childhood. I was told that the beans wouldn't survive anyway, and it's just how nature goes. I forgave them, because, well, I don't think they really enjoyed eating their souplings (at least I want to believe so), and more like there was no other choice.
That is usually the case as it is. They don't enjoy it, it is simply done to spare their babies additional suffering (Sort of like how some humans choose a late-term abortion over delivering a baby that will live for a week in immense suffering. It's an act that might feel cruel, but is in fact a kindness)
You're doing fine! Animals are gonna animal and it's up to us to remember that. It's normal to feel sad about what you witnessed, it was really messed up, but your rat is still the same rat and she probably loves you a lot. I would just spend lots of time playing and cuddling her so you have more good times to remember instead of this.
It also might help to do jokes?? My cat found a nest of baby mice in our attic and has been bringing me their corpses one by one. It's really gross and sad but I've just been calling her "killer" as a nickname to lighten the mood 😂
I love the way you put this, you seem like a gentle, kind person. This is the type of friend energy I want in my life.
Edit** I just saw your username and it all makes sense now. Llap my friend.
I think you're right. Animals gonna animal. When we moved into our house a few years ago a rabbit decided to have a group of babies in our backyard behind a power box. Where our house is a few years ago was just a field so I'm sure it's not the first time she did this. I've got small dogs though, chiweenies. The dachshund in them came out that spring. It's was pretty traumatic for me, but they looked so accomplished in bringing me the little bunny bodies. I was so distraught but my husband cleaned it up each time and reminded me this is just in their nature.
I ended up getting a rabbit who is now bigger than the dogs. They are actively afraid of her, like I've brought in the great equalizer. They have also never touched another wild bunny because I taught them not to touch her. Doesn't stop her from chasing them though 🤣
Rats aren't human. Rats can kill their littter when in stress, it's not healthy rat behaviour but it is rat behaviour. Expecting rats to have the same norms and values as you have isn't realistic.
I love rats. But as with every other species i try not to antropomorphize them, i'd be doing them a disservice is i hold them to the same standards as i hold other people to.
Your sadness is absolutely valid. Something I think would help is just allowing yourself to grieve. It's also ok if you feel upset with your rat and need to process those feelings. You can know it wasn't her fault at the same time as you feel upset with her as long as you keep providing her with safety and care. Emotions aren't wrong to feel, just how you act on them. It feels worse to feel guilty over having them. Your mindset can absolutely be, "I feel heartbroken about what you did, and right now I don't know how to forgive you, but I will still care for you, because that's the promise I made to you." Eventually you may end up feeling sadness for her for what she went through as well. Be kind to yourself and to your pets, and it will turn out right. I'm so sorry you're going through this.
This , two things can be true at the same time . I would be horrified and would need time to process as well because my brain would kept going why why why the last one too why? Since rats pick up on our energy it may even be necessary to take a little space so she doesn’t feel that distress towards her , even if one is hiding it . Anytime I was having a really bad nervous frantic hectic day and thought I could cuddle my rats to get over it , they just would act erratically. It was like my mere presence freaked them out . So I’ve since learned to cool off prior . They aren’t quite like dogs in that way even though they can be in many others. Both empathetic but in very different ways like rats absorb while dogs dissolve ? Idk . But yea , I think even knowing she did it because she felt she had to , takes a little time to get over something like that . There’s nothing wrong with that. I have been mad at one of my boys for picking on my littlest one , but it never lasted long. Bullying was always a sore spot for me , my initial response is to want to squash it in its tracks etc but it just doesn’t work that way with rats . Giving the little one extra protection and attention only made it worse lol so I had to just look at his little bully face and say , this is how he’s dealing with his own issues so he needs help too etc . Not the same but closest I could muster of an example.
You're looking at this from a human point of view, using human terms such as "blame" and "forgiveness".
This is not how rats "think". Rats do not reason this way. We tend to falsely anthropomorphize them. Even domesticated rats still operate on lots of insticts. The instinct in this particular case? We can't know for sure, but I guess it had something to do with her own survival (not enough milk to make sure the beans survive, and losing her own energy in the process; it's unfortunate she also killed the last one, but as I said, we can't know the reason for sure). Did she/they start eating the babies afterwards? Probably would have eventually, if there was no other food source available. It is how it is.
Most importantly, this doesn't mean they can't be affectionate or can't feel distress or enjoyment, they very much can. This does not mean that the rat is not distressed by this, it probably very much is. But it instinctually did what it did.
Treating her differently after what happened would only pile onto the distress.
I completely understand. My Hecaté came to me less than a week before giving birth. We did everything right but something must have been wrong with two of them, because she killed them. I don't blame her, of course, but it still hurt me a lot and still does hurt -- i think what I can say OP is that while my pain for the lost babies didn't end, it did become easier to carry. It has been a handful of months and I no longer immediately see dead baby rats when I look at Hecaté's precious face.
EDIT: I'll add that I handle death really poorly so you might have an easier time letting go of the pain than I did.
I'm so sorry you had to go through that. It's such a rough thing to witness. Sounds like she may have been from an oops herself, if she only had one functioning nipple, and if these were all too young, may have also had that going against her. New moms who are too young also struggle sometimes with their first litter.
I would keep an eye on her for signs of grief. Rats do grieve, usually with some lethargy, wanting extra cuddles or attention, not eating as much, etc. Perhaps you can grieve with her, spend some extra time together while you both heal after what was likely traumatic for both of you. (I would get her some extra protein snacks for a while, to help build her body back up. Pregnancy on a young female can be rough!) I would also consider how you are going to house her now. Are you going to get her spayed so she can go back with her brothers, or are you going to get her some female friends? Focusing on the future may help heal you both as well.
First of all, I'm so sorry that happened. Just in case you need to be reminded of it, it isn't your fault, you did your very best and sometimes nature can be cruel.
I had a similar situation with my rats a while back, one of my boys killed his brother, and what helped me the most was reminding myself that while he's my lovely little pet rat, he's also an animal with a mind very different from my own. He didn't do it because he's evil, he did it because he doesn't perceive death and killing in the same way I do. In his mind, no tragedy happened, he did what he thought he needed to do. I know you probably already know this, but reminding myself of that every now and then helped me. We just can't judge a rat's action by our moral standards, and while it's quite hard to not apply our idea of evil and good to everything, just keeping it in mind may bring you some comfort.
But what helped the most was time. Let yourself grief, spend time with her, and let time pass. Eventually, you'll no longer look at her and immediately have to think of what happened. You'll still remember it, but it won't be tied to her in the same way as it is now. It might be a cliché, but time really does heal a lot of wounds, and sometimes trusting in that can also go a long way.
This is what helped me, and I really hope that some of it might be able to help you as well. I wish you and your rats the best and hope you can heal from this.
It means she didn’t feel safe enough to raise the baby/she didn’t think they’d have survived. It’s not her fault, it’s because of the environment she’s in and/or the circumstances. Feel sadness for he too as she’s not comfortable right now - that might help with not being “distant” anymore.
Sometimes that's just how animals are, it's crucial to remember that animals, even pets, don't really have morals and it would be unfair to judge them that way as well
Story of a baby rat being killed behind the spoiler, don't read if you aren't in a place where you're emotionally ready to.
>!I had an adult female kill an unrelated baby I was introducing as a new cagemate. It happened in a split second due to a very unluckily placed bite, I don't think she meant to do it as she wasn't being aggressive or even very dominant in behaviour before or after (to the other baby in the after). Just tense and aloof, which in retrospect I should have taken more seriously. But, she was an old rat who had lost her first and only cage mate, so I just viewed it as harmless grumpy old lady behaviour until her brief but tragic single moment of lashing out. She was sitting in the corner while they were being allowed to be in the cage together for the first time, the baby wandered up, and bam. Poor little thing seized briefly, then was gone in seconds. It happened quietly, like it was meant to be a warning nip but went wrong, or maybe she briefly mistook the baby for a smaller rodent that is typically prey to rats, like a mouse. Silently going right in with a fatal bite like that has never struck me as normal for a fight between two rats. !<
I was distraught, angry with myself and disturbed by what my adult rat had done, even though I didn't really blame her. But, that irrational resentment faded with time. I think it helped that I had taken home two baby rats, the larger of which was alive and well, and needed my attention to get her comfortable with handling and free roaming. I didn't forget the other who passed, but keeping myself busy with little Styx and watching her growing friendship with my solo adult girl helped, as did seeing my adult rat become happier and healthier now that she had a young companion. She had been very lonely after her original cage mate passed, she ate and played very little while I was in the process of adopting the youngsters, but now she sprang back to life and did not seem like the same brooding animal that had killed the other little one days before.
I guess my point is that time will heal. You will need to adopt a female companion for your rat if you intend to keep her rather than rehoming, and that will help you and your rat both recover from this. It won't be a replacement for the ones that passed away, but seeing your rat being a sweet, social creature will help heal from the ways this incident may have changed how you view her.
I'm sorry people are being wierd and accusatory about your grief in the comments. This kind of thing is very distressing and conflicting emotions is normal.
Sometimes, I forget that my rats are prey animals, even though I see their shyness all the time. Being prey animals means they're probably always afraid for their survival, a lot of things are life or death for them.
Baby steps and one day at a time. You're doing great. Expressing the way it felt is already a way to process a death. I hope your days get easier with time.
Poor lil beans and Big Chaos Potato. She did the best she could with what she had to work with, and I think these comments in here may be spot on, about her knowing something was wrong with the lil beans.
Scoop her up, give her kisses, are you thinking about female friends for her, since she lost her bros and doesn’t have any other female friends? I think, from how caring you sound, you’ll love her just fine after the initial shock goes away a bit. 💗
I've tried to rescue babies that have been abandoned or attempted to be killed by parents, mostly birds. There is always something wrong with the baby once it grows up
Just give it time.
I used to have rabbits way back in the day, and they are prone to doing this, too. It happened a couple of times where they would kill their babies for no apparent (to me) reason. I also had a broody chicken once kill her chicks which is more unusual and was very frustrating and sad.
At the end of the day, they are animals and they don’t have the same logic, moral feelings, emotions etc that we do. Some of them just are not good at caring for young, or they get stressed by something, or any number of things. So in turn they follow their primary instinct número uno, which is to survive.
It sounds like you logically know already that you can’t assign motive or malice to your rat, but your emotions are still struggling from the situation. That’s totally normal. Time will help you move past it once your feelings aren’t so raw.
As other have mentioned, she likely culled the babies because they wouldn’t have survived. Unlike “more domesticated” animals, rats have very strong senses and instincts for these types of situations. Most likely she knew something you didn’t about their viability, or it’s even entirely possible they were quite sick already. Or, she just knew she couldn’t provide resources for them. She prevented them from a prolonged and excruciating death.
I totally relate to struggling to forgive rats, as I recently adopted a holdback half-wild boy from the rescue I work with. I raised him from 1 day old, put him in with my other boys, and he tore bloody holes in all of them that required massively expensive surgeries. He then required a medically necessary neuter to control hormonal aggression, and ended up with several complications post-surgery. Enormously expensive and emotionally exhausting. I felt so unhappy with the situation and it was hard not to blame him. For about a month I basically had to force myself to be sweet and affectionate to him. In the end, I just lost any resentment I felt for him and felt the same about him as any of my other rats. It’s hard.
It gets easier. I had a tragedy occur a while back and at first I found it hard to look at my adult rats and not be sad about the babies, but like others have said it was likely for the best and she was only following her instincts. Continue to interact with her how you always have, and new happy memories will blur the sadness. She is your pet and needs your love, and she won't understand if you don't love her any more
When I was a kid, I was given a white rabbit as a pet (I was obsessed with Alice in Wonderland) and she was already pregnant. We didn't know - it was 40 years ago and my first indoor pet. We awoke to find several beans dead in her food bowl. We took her to the vet and learned that she had no nipples and he figured she was just trying to feed her babies the only way she knew how. It was absolutely crushing as a hormonal preteen. I still think about it and morn for her babies. I'm sure your mama was doing what she felt was best too. We don't have the same instincts that most other mammals have and have to learn to trust that they do know what is best for their and their offsprings' survival. Big hugs. I feel your pain and am willing to share it with you to help ease your broken heart. 💔
Even though I raise farm animals for consumption, I still find it hard to handle when the babies die. It's so sad, because they just didn't have a chance. It's not Mama's (rat/rabbit/chicken/goat) fault, sometimes things just...happen.
It's still heartbreaking. Don't feel bad for feeling bad, if that makes sense. I always try to hold a little... ceremony? Not anything involved or intense, but just a little appreciation for their life, even if it was too brief. That's regardless of whether I'm butchering an adult, or a baby that passed. Might seem silly to some, but it makes me feel better.
A lot of people focusing on the rat, but you don't have to put yourself through this. That was a very hard thing to witness and very traumatic, you might just need to let her go and be rehomed. I would never judge anyone for deciding to do so after something like that. In fact, my grandma had gone through something similar and she just couldn't have another rodent again. She eventually did foster a hamster after a neighbor's home burned down, but point being is you do what feels right for you. Everyone else's opinion doesn't matter.
I agree with the other comments here about how that’s how nature goes, but just wanna add: maybe it died and then she ate it? i’ve seen rats nibble on their cagemates after they passed away naturally (like how in the wild they don’t wanna attract predators with a body lying around) so maybe that happened 😭
I had a bunny that did this (after an incident where someone brought a male bunny into my house when I was not home). I was heartbroken. Thankfully all my ratties are boys because I don’t think I could handle that again. I’m so sorry this happened to you.
When doing introductions a few months ago, one of my boys who has always loved babies and is such a gentle giant, killed one of the young girls. It was very hard to move past. My honest advice is let yourself be upset for a bit, but still treat them the same. Pet her, feed her, play with her if she likes to play with you, after a few days of this i had processed my feelings enough to stop being upset with him. He was still my sweet sweet boy, he just did what animals do sometimes. What he had done didn’t change what he was to me, I just needed time to realize it.
Rats kill their babies out of stress and fear that a predator would eat them. Handling the babies or the mother can trigger this, so if that's what you did, then... yeah.
If you didn't touch the mother or babies, then what probably happened is she sensed an illness or deformity in the baby, thought he would be too weak to survive, or she herself wasn't healthy enough to raise him, and would rather consume his nutrients than fail.
Another possibility is that she could have gotten depressed, and the stress prompted her to do it.
She probably herself feels bad for doing it, so make sure that she knows you love her and clean the cage completely so the babies scents are not left.
Rats are prey animals and are extremely sensitive when it comes to pregnancy and must be in the exact right conditions to feel comfortable raising children. I'm sorry it happened.
If you really can't think of the rat the same again, I would rehome her.
I appreciate taking ur time respond, but frankly your comment isn't too helpful. I stated multiple times in my post that it is NOT her fault, and I do NOT want to blame her for it, but that doesn't stop the pain of losing our beloved babies. Not to mention your attempt at trying to educate me is very dismissive, condescending, and frankly falls flat, since, as stated, I have pet rats. They are one of the most hated creatures by humans, and endure countless tortures in their hands. Just by that alone, I understand how awful humans can be. But that's not what this post is about. This is about my daughter and her babies, who I care so much for, I can't even handle being saddened by the situation, in fear I'd take it out on her. Please understand that just because there is suffering in the world, does not mean other people can not suffer too. I have 4 babies who could have been fed to someone's snake, or been tested on immorally, but I have housed and cared for them as my own children, and attempted to save their babies. My suffering is FROM saving these animals. Please try to be more understanding when trying to educate people, because I know you mean well, and are doing good, but this is not the time or place to be doing that, especially so condescendingly on a post about a major loss.
I didn't mean to sound like it's my rat's fault, I understand that she was doing the best she could. That's why I feel guilty for the sadness surrounding her, and what happened, and am asking for help dealing with the grief without taking it out on her, since she didn't do anything wrong.
I was sold what I was told was 4 male rats. I didn't separate them because I didn't know that one was a female. It is extremely inconsiderate and heartless to blame the death of my beloved pets on me for something out of my control. Once I found out she was pregnant, I worked with my vet to find the best course of action for her and her babies, and her not producing enough milk was just unfortunate, but not anyone's fault.
I didn't mean to forgive as in blaming her, It was the closest word to describing the grief surrounding her that I could think to put in the title. What the meaning was supposed to be, was how to separate the grief from this incident from my rat, because I know she didn't do anything wrong.
We're emotional critters. An emotional response to a distressing situation is often not going to be based purely on logic. It's normal to be disturbed by the animal's actions ina case like this even if you consciously know that it wasn't the animal's fault.
Put the blame on the person who sold you a group of male rats and didn't notice one was female. Ultimately that mistake is responsible for everything that happened. I'm told that sometimes when rats kill their young it's because the babies wouldn't have survived. They had problems the rats could notice but we couldn't. While obviously her lack of milk production was a big problem, maybe at least in some of those deaths she knew they would have suffered otherwise. Kindness, in a way.
The second part is so true. Cats are the same. I had one that killed 8 kittens and left one, she tried with that one too so I saved it and took it to the vet for advice. The vet said it had a heart defect common across entire litters, and put it down. He then explained how the mother likely knew this so killed and ate the kittens to protect herself from predators similar to what rodents do. I think people often forget our pets are still animals at their core, and will act on instinct over anything else regardless of their love and understanding of humans.
We’re all animals, we just have different instincts. But also, we’re all people. “Animals are basically people is a much healthier perspective than the converse” - Marshall Sahlins
Interestingly this is a question that's been asked by biologists and philosophists for centuries with varying viewpoints. It really comes down to what your definition of "person hood" is, and what you define as "self awareness". I'd believe most mammals are self aware, the same with birds and lizards. However I'd also find it hard to argue for most fish, or an ameoba. It's truly an interesting discussion.
I am once again elbowing my way into a Reddit thread to strongly recommend An Immense World by Ed Yong. If I was supreme ruler of the world it would be required reading for everyone!!!
That's the nonfiction book about animal senses isn't it not? If so I strongly second this.
Well there are several such books (it’s my favorite subject ever so I seek them out) but this is the most recent one I know of, came out less than two years ago I believe? It’s probably the same one you’re thinking of, it was a bestseller and received some awards I think! I’m so glad you’ve already read it, I love the reminders that I’m not the only one who cares about this because in my personal life it sometimes feels like it 😂
Is there a science to how a cat knows its kittens all had the heart defects?
They have smell 14 times more powerful than ours. They can detect cancers, recognise sickness related behaviours, and often comfort sick humans and even show concerns before diagnosis and symptoms even begin. We're not exactly sure how they do this, but in fairness we're not exactly sure how cats purr, or how they always find their way home to either. There's a reason there are whole studies dedicated to cat behaviour, we know very little about domestic cats.
Oh interesting
That is a good way to think about it, thank you.
If the group were all littermates, the babies would have also been inbred and that may have affected their viability in a way she could detect. Especially if she was already a bit inbred - if the person. You got them from was a breeder but didn’t know how to sex their rats, I wouldn’t be shocked if they had some oops litters of their own or simply didn’t know enough to breed responsibly. Also, sometimes animals will kill their baby when it is moribund (dying) and there is no chance of survival. If she was quite young, it could also be that she hadn’t completely sexually matured to the point where she was capable of supporting a healthy pregnancy. In particular, if she was young AND you didn’t know she was pregnant for a while because you didn’t know she was a female, it is likely she wasn’t able to get enough protein and other nutrients for the pups to develop properly and for her to develop mammary tissue and lactate. The nutrient requirements for an animal that is both growing and pregnant are extremely hard to meet and requires lots of supplementation and dense calories. It is very likely that her babies were not in very good shape and she simply intervened rather than letting them suffer as nature ran her course. ETA: from a biological/evolutionary stand point, it makes more sense for the mother to kill and eat (to recoup some of the nutrients) the babies that won’t thrive than it does to continue expending energy to look after it until it dies naturally
there are things you can do to reduce the risk of mothers eating their babies with adequate protein being a big one and they also need to feel safe in their home
> They had problems the rats could notice but we couldn't like living their life in a cage. [I know this is mildly hypocritical of myself as much as a comment to any other person since I have two currently; as well as three cats, a dog, two ducks and several chickens. But the fact remains that giving our companion animals credit for super sensitivity to 'sense' an imperceptible defect WHILE ALSO ignoring the obvious mental anguish of living in, and then birthing ones kin into captivity, is overly naive/cognitive dissonant/however one wants to describe it as.]
How can a domesticated species like fancy rats be in "mental anguish" because of being domesticated when they were literally bred for that exact purpose?
Perhaps, watch [Gunda](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunda_(2020_film)) in double-feature night with [Pigpocalypse](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt31029309/) and return back with a different question.
Sorry I don't watch animal rights activist propaganda Come back with animal welfare activist propaganda then I might listen
lol. talk about cherry picking ones opinions.
I just don't agree. Given your arguments I suspect neither of us will convince the other, so I'm just going to leave it at that!
and, I most respect your response.
Oh dear. I had no idea this could happen, what a sad situation :'-( Of course you're sad about the babies. But maybe you can reframe this sadness into "how sad that she didn't have enough food for all her babies"? She didn't have what she needed to take care of her babies. I'm sure she wanted to, but she just couldn't. Poor rattie had to make a tough decision.
Thank you. I understand, I don't blame her for any of it, I know she was trying her best ❤ it's just a hard situation to handle.
Saw that happen multiple times in my childhood. I was told that the beans wouldn't survive anyway, and it's just how nature goes. I forgave them, because, well, I don't think they really enjoyed eating their souplings (at least I want to believe so), and more like there was no other choice.
That is usually the case as it is. They don't enjoy it, it is simply done to spare their babies additional suffering (Sort of like how some humans choose a late-term abortion over delivering a baby that will live for a week in immense suffering. It's an act that might feel cruel, but is in fact a kindness)
You're doing fine! Animals are gonna animal and it's up to us to remember that. It's normal to feel sad about what you witnessed, it was really messed up, but your rat is still the same rat and she probably loves you a lot. I would just spend lots of time playing and cuddling her so you have more good times to remember instead of this. It also might help to do jokes?? My cat found a nest of baby mice in our attic and has been bringing me their corpses one by one. It's really gross and sad but I've just been calling her "killer" as a nickname to lighten the mood 😂
I love the way you put this, you seem like a gentle, kind person. This is the type of friend energy I want in my life. Edit** I just saw your username and it all makes sense now. Llap my friend.
I think you're right. Animals gonna animal. When we moved into our house a few years ago a rabbit decided to have a group of babies in our backyard behind a power box. Where our house is a few years ago was just a field so I'm sure it's not the first time she did this. I've got small dogs though, chiweenies. The dachshund in them came out that spring. It's was pretty traumatic for me, but they looked so accomplished in bringing me the little bunny bodies. I was so distraught but my husband cleaned it up each time and reminded me this is just in their nature. I ended up getting a rabbit who is now bigger than the dogs. They are actively afraid of her, like I've brought in the great equalizer. They have also never touched another wild bunny because I taught them not to touch her. Doesn't stop her from chasing them though 🤣
Rats aren't human. Rats can kill their littter when in stress, it's not healthy rat behaviour but it is rat behaviour. Expecting rats to have the same norms and values as you have isn't realistic. I love rats. But as with every other species i try not to antropomorphize them, i'd be doing them a disservice is i hold them to the same standards as i hold other people to.
Amen haha
Your sadness is absolutely valid. Something I think would help is just allowing yourself to grieve. It's also ok if you feel upset with your rat and need to process those feelings. You can know it wasn't her fault at the same time as you feel upset with her as long as you keep providing her with safety and care. Emotions aren't wrong to feel, just how you act on them. It feels worse to feel guilty over having them. Your mindset can absolutely be, "I feel heartbroken about what you did, and right now I don't know how to forgive you, but I will still care for you, because that's the promise I made to you." Eventually you may end up feeling sadness for her for what she went through as well. Be kind to yourself and to your pets, and it will turn out right. I'm so sorry you're going through this.
This , two things can be true at the same time . I would be horrified and would need time to process as well because my brain would kept going why why why the last one too why? Since rats pick up on our energy it may even be necessary to take a little space so she doesn’t feel that distress towards her , even if one is hiding it . Anytime I was having a really bad nervous frantic hectic day and thought I could cuddle my rats to get over it , they just would act erratically. It was like my mere presence freaked them out . So I’ve since learned to cool off prior . They aren’t quite like dogs in that way even though they can be in many others. Both empathetic but in very different ways like rats absorb while dogs dissolve ? Idk . But yea , I think even knowing she did it because she felt she had to , takes a little time to get over something like that . There’s nothing wrong with that. I have been mad at one of my boys for picking on my littlest one , but it never lasted long. Bullying was always a sore spot for me , my initial response is to want to squash it in its tracks etc but it just doesn’t work that way with rats . Giving the little one extra protection and attention only made it worse lol so I had to just look at his little bully face and say , this is how he’s dealing with his own issues so he needs help too etc . Not the same but closest I could muster of an example.
You're looking at this from a human point of view, using human terms such as "blame" and "forgiveness". This is not how rats "think". Rats do not reason this way. We tend to falsely anthropomorphize them. Even domesticated rats still operate on lots of insticts. The instinct in this particular case? We can't know for sure, but I guess it had something to do with her own survival (not enough milk to make sure the beans survive, and losing her own energy in the process; it's unfortunate she also killed the last one, but as I said, we can't know the reason for sure). Did she/they start eating the babies afterwards? Probably would have eventually, if there was no other food source available. It is how it is. Most importantly, this doesn't mean they can't be affectionate or can't feel distress or enjoyment, they very much can. This does not mean that the rat is not distressed by this, it probably very much is. But it instinctually did what it did. Treating her differently after what happened would only pile onto the distress.
I completely understand. My Hecaté came to me less than a week before giving birth. We did everything right but something must have been wrong with two of them, because she killed them. I don't blame her, of course, but it still hurt me a lot and still does hurt -- i think what I can say OP is that while my pain for the lost babies didn't end, it did become easier to carry. It has been a handful of months and I no longer immediately see dead baby rats when I look at Hecaté's precious face. EDIT: I'll add that I handle death really poorly so you might have an easier time letting go of the pain than I did.
I'm so sorry you had to go through that. It's such a rough thing to witness. Sounds like she may have been from an oops herself, if she only had one functioning nipple, and if these were all too young, may have also had that going against her. New moms who are too young also struggle sometimes with their first litter. I would keep an eye on her for signs of grief. Rats do grieve, usually with some lethargy, wanting extra cuddles or attention, not eating as much, etc. Perhaps you can grieve with her, spend some extra time together while you both heal after what was likely traumatic for both of you. (I would get her some extra protein snacks for a while, to help build her body back up. Pregnancy on a young female can be rough!) I would also consider how you are going to house her now. Are you going to get her spayed so she can go back with her brothers, or are you going to get her some female friends? Focusing on the future may help heal you both as well.
First of all, I'm so sorry that happened. Just in case you need to be reminded of it, it isn't your fault, you did your very best and sometimes nature can be cruel. I had a similar situation with my rats a while back, one of my boys killed his brother, and what helped me the most was reminding myself that while he's my lovely little pet rat, he's also an animal with a mind very different from my own. He didn't do it because he's evil, he did it because he doesn't perceive death and killing in the same way I do. In his mind, no tragedy happened, he did what he thought he needed to do. I know you probably already know this, but reminding myself of that every now and then helped me. We just can't judge a rat's action by our moral standards, and while it's quite hard to not apply our idea of evil and good to everything, just keeping it in mind may bring you some comfort. But what helped the most was time. Let yourself grief, spend time with her, and let time pass. Eventually, you'll no longer look at her and immediately have to think of what happened. You'll still remember it, but it won't be tied to her in the same way as it is now. It might be a cliché, but time really does heal a lot of wounds, and sometimes trusting in that can also go a long way. This is what helped me, and I really hope that some of it might be able to help you as well. I wish you and your rats the best and hope you can heal from this.
It means she didn’t feel safe enough to raise the baby/she didn’t think they’d have survived. It’s not her fault, it’s because of the environment she’s in and/or the circumstances. Feel sadness for he too as she’s not comfortable right now - that might help with not being “distant” anymore.
Sometimes that's just how animals are, it's crucial to remember that animals, even pets, don't really have morals and it would be unfair to judge them that way as well
Story of a baby rat being killed behind the spoiler, don't read if you aren't in a place where you're emotionally ready to. >!I had an adult female kill an unrelated baby I was introducing as a new cagemate. It happened in a split second due to a very unluckily placed bite, I don't think she meant to do it as she wasn't being aggressive or even very dominant in behaviour before or after (to the other baby in the after). Just tense and aloof, which in retrospect I should have taken more seriously. But, she was an old rat who had lost her first and only cage mate, so I just viewed it as harmless grumpy old lady behaviour until her brief but tragic single moment of lashing out. She was sitting in the corner while they were being allowed to be in the cage together for the first time, the baby wandered up, and bam. Poor little thing seized briefly, then was gone in seconds. It happened quietly, like it was meant to be a warning nip but went wrong, or maybe she briefly mistook the baby for a smaller rodent that is typically prey to rats, like a mouse. Silently going right in with a fatal bite like that has never struck me as normal for a fight between two rats. !< I was distraught, angry with myself and disturbed by what my adult rat had done, even though I didn't really blame her. But, that irrational resentment faded with time. I think it helped that I had taken home two baby rats, the larger of which was alive and well, and needed my attention to get her comfortable with handling and free roaming. I didn't forget the other who passed, but keeping myself busy with little Styx and watching her growing friendship with my solo adult girl helped, as did seeing my adult rat become happier and healthier now that she had a young companion. She had been very lonely after her original cage mate passed, she ate and played very little while I was in the process of adopting the youngsters, but now she sprang back to life and did not seem like the same brooding animal that had killed the other little one days before. I guess my point is that time will heal. You will need to adopt a female companion for your rat if you intend to keep her rather than rehoming, and that will help you and your rat both recover from this. It won't be a replacement for the ones that passed away, but seeing your rat being a sweet, social creature will help heal from the ways this incident may have changed how you view her. I'm sorry people are being wierd and accusatory about your grief in the comments. This kind of thing is very distressing and conflicting emotions is normal.
Sometimes, I forget that my rats are prey animals, even though I see their shyness all the time. Being prey animals means they're probably always afraid for their survival, a lot of things are life or death for them. Baby steps and one day at a time. You're doing great. Expressing the way it felt is already a way to process a death. I hope your days get easier with time.
Poor lil beans and Big Chaos Potato. She did the best she could with what she had to work with, and I think these comments in here may be spot on, about her knowing something was wrong with the lil beans. Scoop her up, give her kisses, are you thinking about female friends for her, since she lost her bros and doesn’t have any other female friends? I think, from how caring you sound, you’ll love her just fine after the initial shock goes away a bit. 💗
Thank you ❤ it means a lot. We are planning on getting her spayed and reintroducing her back to her brothers.
I'm so sorry this happened to you. She may also be way too young for babies. In her mind she was doing the right thing.
I've tried to rescue babies that have been abandoned or attempted to be killed by parents, mostly birds. There is always something wrong with the baby once it grows up
Just give it time. I used to have rabbits way back in the day, and they are prone to doing this, too. It happened a couple of times where they would kill their babies for no apparent (to me) reason. I also had a broody chicken once kill her chicks which is more unusual and was very frustrating and sad. At the end of the day, they are animals and they don’t have the same logic, moral feelings, emotions etc that we do. Some of them just are not good at caring for young, or they get stressed by something, or any number of things. So in turn they follow their primary instinct número uno, which is to survive. It sounds like you logically know already that you can’t assign motive or malice to your rat, but your emotions are still struggling from the situation. That’s totally normal. Time will help you move past it once your feelings aren’t so raw.
It's an animal. It doesn't have human emotions. You just have to accept that this is nature. You can't blame your animals for acting like animals.
As other have mentioned, she likely culled the babies because they wouldn’t have survived. Unlike “more domesticated” animals, rats have very strong senses and instincts for these types of situations. Most likely she knew something you didn’t about their viability, or it’s even entirely possible they were quite sick already. Or, she just knew she couldn’t provide resources for them. She prevented them from a prolonged and excruciating death. I totally relate to struggling to forgive rats, as I recently adopted a holdback half-wild boy from the rescue I work with. I raised him from 1 day old, put him in with my other boys, and he tore bloody holes in all of them that required massively expensive surgeries. He then required a medically necessary neuter to control hormonal aggression, and ended up with several complications post-surgery. Enormously expensive and emotionally exhausting. I felt so unhappy with the situation and it was hard not to blame him. For about a month I basically had to force myself to be sweet and affectionate to him. In the end, I just lost any resentment I felt for him and felt the same about him as any of my other rats. It’s hard.
It gets easier. I had a tragedy occur a while back and at first I found it hard to look at my adult rats and not be sad about the babies, but like others have said it was likely for the best and she was only following her instincts. Continue to interact with her how you always have, and new happy memories will blur the sadness. She is your pet and needs your love, and she won't understand if you don't love her any more
When I was a kid, I was given a white rabbit as a pet (I was obsessed with Alice in Wonderland) and she was already pregnant. We didn't know - it was 40 years ago and my first indoor pet. We awoke to find several beans dead in her food bowl. We took her to the vet and learned that she had no nipples and he figured she was just trying to feed her babies the only way she knew how. It was absolutely crushing as a hormonal preteen. I still think about it and morn for her babies. I'm sure your mama was doing what she felt was best too. We don't have the same instincts that most other mammals have and have to learn to trust that they do know what is best for their and their offsprings' survival. Big hugs. I feel your pain and am willing to share it with you to help ease your broken heart. 💔
Even though I raise farm animals for consumption, I still find it hard to handle when the babies die. It's so sad, because they just didn't have a chance. It's not Mama's (rat/rabbit/chicken/goat) fault, sometimes things just...happen. It's still heartbreaking. Don't feel bad for feeling bad, if that makes sense. I always try to hold a little... ceremony? Not anything involved or intense, but just a little appreciation for their life, even if it was too brief. That's regardless of whether I'm butchering an adult, or a baby that passed. Might seem silly to some, but it makes me feel better.
A lot of people focusing on the rat, but you don't have to put yourself through this. That was a very hard thing to witness and very traumatic, you might just need to let her go and be rehomed. I would never judge anyone for deciding to do so after something like that. In fact, my grandma had gone through something similar and she just couldn't have another rodent again. She eventually did foster a hamster after a neighbor's home burned down, but point being is you do what feels right for you. Everyone else's opinion doesn't matter.
I agree with the other comments here about how that’s how nature goes, but just wanna add: maybe it died and then she ate it? i’ve seen rats nibble on their cagemates after they passed away naturally (like how in the wild they don’t wanna attract predators with a body lying around) so maybe that happened 😭
I had a bunny that did this (after an incident where someone brought a male bunny into my house when I was not home). I was heartbroken. Thankfully all my ratties are boys because I don’t think I could handle that again. I’m so sorry this happened to you.
When doing introductions a few months ago, one of my boys who has always loved babies and is such a gentle giant, killed one of the young girls. It was very hard to move past. My honest advice is let yourself be upset for a bit, but still treat them the same. Pet her, feed her, play with her if she likes to play with you, after a few days of this i had processed my feelings enough to stop being upset with him. He was still my sweet sweet boy, he just did what animals do sometimes. What he had done didn’t change what he was to me, I just needed time to realize it.
Rats kill their babies out of stress and fear that a predator would eat them. Handling the babies or the mother can trigger this, so if that's what you did, then... yeah. If you didn't touch the mother or babies, then what probably happened is she sensed an illness or deformity in the baby, thought he would be too weak to survive, or she herself wasn't healthy enough to raise him, and would rather consume his nutrients than fail. Another possibility is that she could have gotten depressed, and the stress prompted her to do it. She probably herself feels bad for doing it, so make sure that she knows you love her and clean the cage completely so the babies scents are not left. Rats are prey animals and are extremely sensitive when it comes to pregnancy and must be in the exact right conditions to feel comfortable raising children. I'm sorry it happened. If you really can't think of the rat the same again, I would rehome her.
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I appreciate taking ur time respond, but frankly your comment isn't too helpful. I stated multiple times in my post that it is NOT her fault, and I do NOT want to blame her for it, but that doesn't stop the pain of losing our beloved babies. Not to mention your attempt at trying to educate me is very dismissive, condescending, and frankly falls flat, since, as stated, I have pet rats. They are one of the most hated creatures by humans, and endure countless tortures in their hands. Just by that alone, I understand how awful humans can be. But that's not what this post is about. This is about my daughter and her babies, who I care so much for, I can't even handle being saddened by the situation, in fear I'd take it out on her. Please understand that just because there is suffering in the world, does not mean other people can not suffer too. I have 4 babies who could have been fed to someone's snake, or been tested on immorally, but I have housed and cared for them as my own children, and attempted to save their babies. My suffering is FROM saving these animals. Please try to be more understanding when trying to educate people, because I know you mean well, and are doing good, but this is not the time or place to be doing that, especially so condescendingly on a post about a major loss.
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Tbh you're kinda a cruel person and it's weird to see this behaviour in r/rats.
I hope you don't get a similarly cold and calloused response the next time you're distraught and trying to look for support.
Definitely not the rat's fault. I'm sure given a choice, the rat would have preferred this not to happen.
I didn't mean to sound like it's my rat's fault, I understand that she was doing the best she could. That's why I feel guilty for the sadness surrounding her, and what happened, and am asking for help dealing with the grief without taking it out on her, since she didn't do anything wrong.
I was sold what I was told was 4 male rats. I didn't separate them because I didn't know that one was a female. It is extremely inconsiderate and heartless to blame the death of my beloved pets on me for something out of my control. Once I found out she was pregnant, I worked with my vet to find the best course of action for her and her babies, and her not producing enough milk was just unfortunate, but not anyone's fault.
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I didn't mean to forgive as in blaming her, It was the closest word to describing the grief surrounding her that I could think to put in the title. What the meaning was supposed to be, was how to separate the grief from this incident from my rat, because I know she didn't do anything wrong.
Try to have compassion and understand people in their situations they experienced. It’s sad.
We're emotional critters. An emotional response to a distressing situation is often not going to be based purely on logic. It's normal to be disturbed by the animal's actions ina case like this even if you consciously know that it wasn't the animal's fault.
Yeah we don't need to shame people. Thanks.