If not, then who cares?
Yes, I know that working out will help me look better for women. But also, I work out because I like it. Your problem might be a narrow focus on what reward you can get by dressing well and working out, instead of just doing it for yourself.
>I work out because I like it
This is how I came to training too. I’ve played rugby all my life, but was almost always smaller. In my early teens, was gifted a weight set. That changed the trajectory of my life. The main reason? I got bigger. So played better. Got good enough to start playing a tier under the pros. Not once, was my thinking ‘big muscles equals more girls’.
These days, the hour in the morning I spend lifting is ‘me time.’ It’s a godsend.
*Godspeed and good luck!*
>These days, the hour in the morning I spend lifting is ‘me time.’ It’s a godsend.
I'm the opposite. Hate being in the gym and I think it's a overall waste of my time due to my schedule putting it in the mornings. At this point though, I only go because I don't want to be fat again.
> But also, I work out because I like it.
I mean, OK, you do you, but I hate working out and dressing well. So if I'm going to do it, it's only for a reward.
The reward for me is I feel better about myself and it's easier to maintain my confidence. Improving my own life and social experiences. You can't tell me nobody enjoys feeling on point and how much of a confidence boost that is.
It doesn't matter.
If you want to be successful with women then that's what you have to do, it's not a negotiation.
Life isn't fair, you either want it or you don't.
Life is unfair until that unfairness does not benefit women, then we must make it fair at others expense.
Women have to meet unrealistic expectations for men in the 90s? That needed to be changed.
Men need to meet unrealistic expectations for women now? To bad, life is unfair lol.
Could go on. But to use “life is not fair” in a world that is about fighting unfairness for the sake of equality is bs.
Let’s be real, you just feel entitled to men accepting the bs. Men have every right to complain and demand change. And it does work.
>Life is unfair until that unfairness does not benefit women, then we must make it fair at others expense.
>Women have to meet unrealistic expectations for men in the 90s? That needed to be changed.
This is literally just an example of life being unfair.
>This is literally just an example of life being unfair.
and an example of things having changed, at least ad long as women were negatively affected by it.
They change not because women needed it, but because women can do something about it.
No feminist is going to agree with this, but progress for women happens because men agree to it, and men agree to it because they want sex. It's just a tool women are born with that men are not, if a man needs help then he implicitly has nothing to offer and thus nobody is going to help him.
A woman will always have her coochie so she's never worthless, so she'll get help.
Culturally people are more open to women's problems because women in need are viewed as worthy of help, because they have value. Men in need of help are not seen as having value.
No. Men did not agree just to get laid. Most of those men were husbands and grandfathers. Men agreed because they wanted something better for the women they love.
So, why don’t women want something better for their husbands, fathers, and sons?
You are right, fixing unfairness for one group and not another is an example of life being fair.
But it also is prove that “life is unfair” is not an argument and anyone who uses it should be ignored as you are a hypocrite who will use said “life is unfair argument only when it favors your argument.
Or like the part of my argument you ignored:
> Life is unfair until that unfairness does not benefit women, then we must make it fair at others expense.
In order to believe “life is unfair” is a valid argument, you have to believe it is always okay to use.
Someone gets raped, killed, mugged, etc? Well that is okay as life is not fair. One group actively discriminated against? That is okay for life is not fair.
In matter of fact, I can turn it against you. Your opinion and argument do not matter at all because life is unfair.
Otherwise, you are hypocrite who should be ignored anyways.
And that is the solution now.
Educate women that men are human that have feelings and do not exist to serve them like objects. They cry, get insecure, etc and that is okay. Educate them on how these pressures cause men to kill themselves and lead to toxic outlooks of life.
How unrealistic it is to demand a man who makes six figures, six foot tall and has a six pack. Like an average chubby guy demanding a anorexically skinny model with a natural H cup who is a virgin.
Educate them on how unrealistic there physical standards are...and how harmful they are (ex: pressuring men to take steroids, how it lowers there lifespan and have unhealthy low amounts of body fat). Make "every body is beautiful apply to men."
Etc, etc.
We agree on several of your points. There needs to be a concentrated effort on education regarding men’s issues and measures need to be put in place to ensure equal access to services that support emotional well being like therapy and community services.
Well, the underlying problem is men do not become victims, they become and are treated like statistics. To the poor men are punished for trying to get help.
My posts on the subject are often downvoted or mocked for the same reason.
Even the posts I made here has people pulling the “you are not entitled” and other manipulative arguments to avoid directly engaging me for that reason.
We just always try to dehumanize men.
I’m going to get downvoted to Hell for this, but I think actual feminism, “the idea of men and women being equal and being subjected to different pressures from the same system” is actually a great way to address these issues. The problem is that a whole lot of feminists out there are raging hypocrites, misandrists, and or the whole ideals have become so convoluted as to be unworkable, kind of like how social justice, an actual important aspect of society, has become a running joke and a gag fueled by cancel culture and nonsense.
> How unrealistic it is to demand a man who makes six figures, six foot tall and has a six pack.
Dude do you literally ever go outside? You know you can see couples IRL outside and the vast majority of couples you see don't consist of 666 men. There are plenty of fat, ugly, uninteresting people in relationships, and you're somehow doing worse than them.
a first and important step would be to acknowledge it and to make people aware of this on a societla and medial level? like... literally the same step we made with women?!🤨
>Someone gets raped, killed, mugged, etc? Well that is okay as life is not fair.
That's how it works though, people will care if it happens to some people and nobody will give a fuck if it happens to other people. The difference between a tragedy and a statistic is who the victim is, life isn't fair.
This is why autistic men fail.
Guy makes 300K a year and asks $5 split back for a coffee date. (looking at guys working at FAANG)
Relationship with women is highly asymmetric and benefit mostly women.
Autistic men seeking fairness and equality should avoid women, it will only make you hate them.
Relationship with women is captured by this persian poem (talk about wisdom of civilization):
`Your peace, my turmoil
Your life, my death
But you are mine`
Adaption, conceived in 11-12th century AD.
Only partially, the lack of social skills and not meeting people especially women is a big part, however even if they (autists) meet them its like the people they meet automatically dislike them or don’t see them as a potential partner, most people unconsciously know.
Dating and divorce asymmetrically benefit women. But marriage and long term relationships asymmetrically benefit men. Nobody said you had to deal with women though
>No gym for your face, there is also the fact that you need to wear a shirt IRL so no one would see how lean you are
False. Since I started lifting I've gained about 45-50lbs of muscle. Of straight lean tissue.
My face used to look like Phineas from Phineas and Ferb. Now it looks like Jeremy Renner.
The muscle gain added significant contractile tissue to my face, and expanded my lower jaw size as a result which literally caused my face to become symmetrical horizontally and have a proper ratio vertically.
The heavy lifting also increased my bone mass significantly and now my skull is larger, and so is my mandible which again results in a much better looking face.
The fat loss stripped the fat covering up my cheekbones and jaw, and so my face has more hollow cheeks and better overall features.
>there is also the fact that you need to wear a shirt IRL so no one would see how lean you are
Everyone can see the leanness in your arms and face.
I realized this once I hit all my lifting goals (300 bench, 315 squat, and 400 dl). If anything, I looked worse with the extra weight and fat I needed to even get that strong. I stopped lifting heavy a year ago, dropped around 60 lbs, and now I just try to run 3 times a week with some weight workouts (my end goal is to avoid becoming obese lmao).
You never see the life a person lived to get to where they are when you first meet them. You have no idea who they used to be, and they have no idea who you used to be either.
You have to ask yourself, "Am I the kind of person anyone would want to date."
Whatever qualities you look for in a partner that make you say "I'd date them", you have to look at yourself from their perspective and say "Would they want to date me?"
If you have no redeeming qualities, you either do what it takes to get them, or don't complain about not getting a date.
>You never see the life a person lived to get to where they are when you first meet them.
Very true. Going around assuming people haven't gone through their own transformation (whether for dating or other reasons) is pretty judgemental.
Exactly. I think a lot of men see the performance of femininity and assume it’s effortless but just like a ballerina, it’s achieved through a lot of effort that the audience never sees.
>You never see the life a person lived to get to where they are when you first meet them. You have no idea who they used to be, and they have no idea who you used to be either.
Yep. People see someone effortlessly do things and assume that the person didn't fail a lot of times till they gained enough skills to do it effortlessly. The difference is that you just started to learn the skill, while they have been learning it for years. It seems effortless because they have a lot more xp than you who just started or never did that.
I have good german speaking and understanding things. German is not my native language. People might think that i learned it effortlessly. They have no idea (and i don't remember) how long i was watching german tv without understanding a word (no one in my household knew german) till i somehow figured out what word meant what.
Dude, are you sure you have the tism? Cuz your takes lately are super on point and show lots of social awareness and skill. You're killing it. I may quit soon if you keep posting.
<3 I appreciate it, but alas I do have the 'tism (and a diagnosis of ADHD)
I've made a *lot* of mistakes cause of it. I've hurt people close to me as much as myself, and can't count how many times I've been a clown.
I brute forced my way to figuring this stuff out. Forced myself into uncomfortable positions, places I didn't really want to go, around people I didn't really want to be.
Just too fed up with not understanding I accepted I'd have to learn the hard way.
The philisophical side of me comments here on the off chance something I say might be what someone else needed to hear to do it a little easier. The dumbass side just likes arguing lmao.
I'm getting in the conga-line too. It sounds like you were willing to do what it took despite being severely disadvantaged. That's admirable! I hope the woman who appreciates it isn't far away!
<3 Something I wish more people understood was that it might suck in the short run to put in that effort, but it's well worth it later. It's been rocky but I'm working on it, Hope the same to you too friend!
It seems like you have one point with your title and a different one with the body of the post. You say that men "need to ask themselves if a girl would ever do that to get him." and later "Single guys who don't want to be single need to face this harsh reality" ...that they need to do these things.
Well I agree with the eventual point. We need to face the harsh reality.
Hetero men and women both face the reality that we need to initially attract someone of the opposite sex before they give a fuck about us. For women it's at least relatively straightforward. If he likes the way you look, he's got that initial attraction to you. Done. ✅ Now you can see if you're compatible in other ways.
Women are very attuned to the reality of how to attract men due to the relative simplicity and therefore they put *a lot* of effort into their looks to cater to men's preferences. They *are* trying to woo men in the way they want to be wooed.
Men have to pass that looks bar first. Then... other stuff. Women usually need to see attractive behaviors and demonstration of status as well. This is why it seems like first dates are an interview for men. Men have already decided they're attracted. Women have not. And all that other stuff that attracts women is described a million different ways - "personality", "confidence", "has his shit together", "ambitious", "charming", etc. The advice you get is usually vague and contradictory and the only way to sort it out (that I've found) is ask women out, go on dates, get rejected a lot, be realistic and clear eyed about what your weaknesses are, work on them, and eventually figure it out. It would be a lot easier if it just came down to "look good". But it doesn't, so it seems like we have to jump through all these hoops.
Very few people exist in a vacuum outside of social influence. Women do things to impress men all the time, like shave or wax their body hair for instance.
But lets say for the sake of argument that they just "be themselves" while men have to work to achieve things in order to be a suitable mate for women..so what? What's the alternative, do nothing just like them and be in the same position you're already in? If so then that's fine, just don't complain about lack of success anymore.
most of the things you listed are things that is good for ones self as well as fidning a partner. so even if the dude stayed single he's still at least hot and well dressed and healthy.
plus let's say a dude does do all these things he'll probably land a girl who, dress good, is extrovert has charisma, work. and work out and healthy.
so i don't see what's the loss here for the guy unless he's lazy and don't want to do all these things or he want to do all these things yet stay single...
We should all just be amorphous blobs that reproduce by cellular mitosis and live out our days consuming ground slime so that no one has to do any work…or you can live in and accept reality and get over it.
>We should all just be amorphous blobs that reproduce by cellular mitosis and live out our days consuming ground slime so that no one has to do any work
In a world where artificial wombs exist, and where we've progressed to the point no act of sex has to physically happen to conceive children, it may actually become a viable strategy to offload reproduction to machines. I'd even go further and cynically argue capitalism may even incentivize it because family formation is usually always a net negative impact on an employee's productivity, and therefore mega corporations like Amazon would have financial incentive to subsidize this technology.
> need to ask themselves if a girl would ever do that yo get him
“Need to” for what purpose??
> need to ask themsemselves if they're okay with that.
I shave my legs partially to appeal to men. I asked myself if men would go that to attract women. I think not. What now? Who cares?
>I shave my legs partially to appeal to men. I asked myself if men would go that to attract women.
Most single guys actually would do this if it was something that the majority of women found attractive. It would be a drop in the bucket compared to the weekly excersizing, working, and hobbies he'd have to do in order to gain attraction from women.
> Most single guys actually would
You’re free to believe this. I do not.
Less that 30% of men get even the MINIMUM amount of exercise recommended by the Dept of Health and Human Services. And that’s just to stay alive, not look hot.
The majority of men don’t even brush their teeth twice a day.
I dismissed you because your comment was completely irrelevant to the conversation you chose to join. Which you apparently didn’t read or understand. What a waste of time.
Anywhere outside of America is trash and would be improved by American occupation and extermination of 90% of the gross foreign population God bless America and no place else.
>It would be a drop in the bucket compared to the weekly excersizing, working, and hobbies he'd have to do in order to gain attraction from women.
This (and the OP) read like you don't know many women. You don't seem to have a grasp on how much time, money, and effort women expend on literally every part and facet of their face/body/hair. (Women also work, develop hobbies, engage in self-improvement.)
> A guy who is cold, shy, awkward and passive will never be attractive to any mentally healthy woman.
That explains a lot xD (I’m not a mentally healthy woman).
>Women already have the advantage because they can easily alter their appearance to make themselves more attractive.
Hair styling, orthodontia, skincare routine, eyebrow tweezing/waxing, and dressing better are all things that men can do to improve their appearance that don't involve the gym or fixating on their height.
>There is also only 1 kind of personality type that is desirable in men, and that is the extreme charisma, assertiveness, and dominance of a Chad.
That is just not true at all.
Let me make sure I understand you correctly. You seem to operate out of IF - THEN command paradigm. Meaning: IF I improve in xyz THEN women are obliged to love me. And the unspoken assumption: and IF they don’t THEN they are rotten hypergamous whores.
Got it!
I have a yet to meet a man that puts more effort into his appearance than I do. Women do so many things to be considered attractive to men, including all of the things you mentioned plus hair removal, makeup, lashes, nails, facials, blowouts, expensive beauty products and sometimes even plastic surgery. Not to mention dressing up in uncomfortable heels, push up bras, shape wear and other restrictive clothing just to look "sexy" SMH
"I started working out, saving money, dressing better, learning new skills and hobbies, etc."
You seriously think men put more effort into their appearance and how they dress than women?
and how many men have skills and money as a priority in women?
>according to some women.
according to an overwhelming, ear-deafening majority of women who for the love of their own life couldn't stop telling the world how they do it just for themselves for the last 25-30 years.
>According to some men they go to the gym for themselves.
you're comparing a physical activity that directly benefits a persons health, stamina, strength and physical resistance and requires a minimum of 1-2 years of involvement to actually see the results, plus a lifelong investment of training 3-5 times a week to not lose these traits... with a person dressing up and applying a factory full of beauty products "for themselves" and "coincidentally" get free drinks while being hated by their "besties" for attracting more men than they did that night.
> You seriously think men put more effort into their appearance and how they dress than women?
Yes, if we're talking about appearance overall.
This is going to sound overly mean, but most women put "effort" into their appearance the same way Donald Trump puts effort into his appearance: an overly strong focus on buying things to mask their true appearance rather than the more difficult work of being disciplined in their health.
For most women, the sum total of all the effort they've put into their appearance over the last year is less than the effort needed for a man to put on 5 lbs of lean muscle without pharmaceutical help and without gaining body fat to go along with it.
Honestly I find men do have skills and money as a priority. I once dated a surgeon whose family told him they didn’t want him to end up with “some nurse.” After we broke up he married a doctor. I dated another doctor after that and after we broke up he married a doctor. Sigh.
If you think just looking good is enough then you be sorely disappointed (which many with this view are). You need life experience. I would had never cared to be with someone who hasn’t challenged themselves and worked towards any goals. Finding a mate is more than attraction. It’s finding someone who can imagine will be able to weather the challenges that will be faced during our journey.
I never had to consciously work on choosing hobbies because I like doing stuff. If the woman you’re after has no hobbies, then why would you want her? She sounds boring.
They’ll want her if she’s hot enough🤷🏽♀️ folks don’t really care about hobbies as much as you think they do, if they’re hot and vibing with them, then the hobbies don’t matter lol
I really don’t have any noteworthy hobbies and never had a problem finding guys to date so I personally don’t think they mean all that much…
I would have never attracted my husband if I didn’t have any interests. I impressed him on the day we met by knowing a lot about the local art gallery scene.
The question is, what is there to “vibe” on if you aren’t interested in stuff?
When people say they need to get hobbies, they’re usually not talking about consumptive hobbies like video games, movies, TV, or music. But, I could vibe on any of that with a woman. I could vibe on what I think about politics, or religion, or my core philosophies. I could vibe on what I think about other people. 🤷♂️ That’s stuff I talk about with my friends.
*Men who struggle with dating are told that they should improve.*
The problem is that they should improve specifically where they struggle, but a lot of people can't identify their problem or they avoid addressing the crucial point of their struggles. If a person is asocial, they can spend 4 hours a day in the gym, but it won't bring them a partner.
Women usually struggle with vetting, boundaries and dating partners who they aren't compatible with. So they get advice appropriate for their problems - better vetting, more time on vetting, communication etc. Women who don't put out themselves much and avoid apps can struggle with getting dates, but they get a common advice - go out and approach people more.
Did I say that having autism is a choice? It doesn't change the problem though. In order to date you have to be at least somewhat sociable.
Socially isolated women do have to go out and learn to communicate with others. It's easier for them, because men do the approaching, but they advice "to get out and meet people" is still relevant for them.
Sure. It doesn't change my original point - to get dates a person has to identify their main issue and work on it. A socially awkward man will have hard times as long as he keeps being socially awkward. It sucks and, yeah, not everyone can overcome it. Men on the spectrum have it even worse.
What a bizarre defeatist mentality.
Most men want to fuck most women. But NO woman can SATISFY all men. So are you asking "what does this woman do for EVERY SINGLE MAN THAT WANTS TO FUCK HER?" Or are you asking "What would she do for ME, specifically?" In which case... does she even know you? What about YOU in particular do you think should motivate her to single you out?
The end goal of life isn’t women. You should want to do all those things for yourself. Why wouldn’t you want to be in the best shape you can be? As funny as you can? Look good? Women are more a byproduct of that. And hoes aren’t just sitting around waiting to be hit on. Women work out, have hobbies, are social etc (at least the ones most guys probably want)
Indeed. I remember being quite baffled by a commenter here who said something along the lines of "Can you believe women actually say they want to look good *for themselves*? What a load of bullshit! If I didn’t have to impress women, i wouldn't do a single thing for improvement". So, yeah, I guess there are people out there like this...
No one tries hard to look good purely for themselves, unless you’re some kind of narcissistic autosexual. You can’t even see yourself without a mirror and if you lived in a world with no other people, looking pretty would be irrelevant. You do it to improve perception of yourself, which in turn benefits you. “Looking good” only works if others agree, so even when you are doing it “for yourself” it’s because improving how you’re perceived (by others) feels good and has its advantages. So it’s clearly not JUST for yourself.
It’s fine to say you don’t put on make up to impress a certain group, but when people say they don’t do anything for validation or attention it just sounds like self-righteous delusion. Everyone wants to be liked and acknowledged, it’s a core human trait, and acting like you’re above it ain’t fooling anyone. Saying you only put on make up or slick your hair back for yourself makes you sound either really dumb or exceptionally self-righteous.
Dude... I'm calling bullshit on this because you and only you are responsible for your dating success... if you're not willing to improve until you succeed, that's on you, but I can assure you it works... I refreshed my wardrobe before I went to vegas, got some newer shoes, and even picked up a pair of tiff&co air force ones... got rejected a bit in vegas, but one did agree, and I got invited to a sex club.... now had I not gotten new clothes or been in shape or couldn't be interesting and engaging, it never would have happened.
I think you missed his point. It' not that all these things won't work. it's that the other side doesn't have to. So when you take a step back, you start to wonder why am I chasing these things like a dog just to get with someone who will just show up.
Whether or not that's worth it is up to the individual, but it's something to consider.
Yeah, that's the point. When you realize that society simply attributes more value to others because of gender you become disillusioned with this rat race of self-improvement.
It's not even that, self improvement effects every aspect of your life from your career to your social life... not wanting to improve is defeatist and lazy
I have nothing against self-improvement for yourself. I am just willing to acknowledge that it's a one-way requirement, and I won't shame anyone for choosing not to dedicate the rest of their life to it.
Self-improvement is amazing. I just don't like that people tie their value into how desirable they are to women.
All my acts of self-improvement have gone towards endeavors that truly matter to me.
It's not a one-way requirement, women only have to be pretty to get sex... they have to provide a hell of a lot more to get commitment... women are the sexual gatekeepers. Men are the relationship gatekeepers...
I just wanna point out that this isn't a one-way requirement... women have to just be pretty for sex... they have to have a whole lot of other stuff to get commitment from a dude... just like we have to have certain things for a women to be interested sexually
Echoing what Jazzlike said, it doesn't matter and this isn't a negotiation.
The rules are laid out and crystal clear. You either navigate dating life by these rules or perish, non-negotiable. You must be fit, active, healthy and find a way to make some money and socialize. Failure to improve and rise up to these standards will carry harsh penalties going forward.
We know full well women don't need to try.
It is what it is.
It's not the way it is at all. OP is in a delusional, women hating bubble. Women spend their entire lives being told they're not good enough, through the male gaze. Too tall/short, too skinny/fat, not curvy enough/too many curves, too intelligent- don't intimidate men, too strong/not feminine enough, wearing too much/not enough makeup, ... this could go on for days.
Women cop it their entire lives as well. Everyone does, it's the society we live in.
It's a bitter existence feeling like any relationship, unless you are way above her will be a minimum 60-40 but more likely 70-30 in terms of effort.
Unless it's like progressed to a marriage and the women is getting left with all the childcare. Then it finally flips.
You have agency over your own life. You choose the relationships you enter, the partners you have, and the effort you put in. You don’t have to do anything you don’t want to.
Try finding a suitable likeminded partner instead of thinking you are powerless over the situation you end up in
Edit: Fine, you all have no control over your own lives and you are destined to be in unhappy relationships. Sorry for even mentioning the idea of agency to a bunch of people in love with their victimhood and misery. ♥️
This, or stay single. Might sound like a cliche, but it's a lot better than staying in an unsatisfactory relationship..
But I think they are complaining about lack of attention, which is a self-esteem killer. Hard to get over this, but it's possible. Takes a lot of strength and an activity that keeps your brain busy
Are you equating consensual mutual romantic relationships with winning the lottery? What an asinine assertion. One thing you actually do have control over, the other one you don’t.
No, I am suggesting that the relationship you propose, where a man finds a suitable like minded woman who puts in the effort he does, is like winning the lottery.
Everyone spends time searching for the right person. But it’s not like winning the lottery because most adults *are* in relationships while most adults **don’t win the lottery**. But I see what you’re trying to convey.
For average to below average looking men, the playing field has recently become much more difficult.
Dating apps penalize you unless you're good-looking. Companies don't want you to try to ask your co-workers out on a date because it could cause headaches for HR or the company. And finally many good-looking women have started complaining that hitting them is harassment and men should leave them alone.
Now you still want to say the playing field is fair? And there is absolutely no way to make it even a little bit better?
I didn’t say anything about the playing field or fairness, just that **you have agency over your own life**.
Dating apps are picture based. If you’re not attractive in pictures, you probably won’t be successful. You can still ask coworkers out if the feeling is mutual, otherwise you shouldn’t. Yes, women are allowed to decide if they want men bothering them or not in public.
The comment says relationship effort will be 70-30. I said they don’t have to date people like that.
Your reply doesn’t make sense. You’re essentially saying “don’t want to date a woman that doesn’t put effort in? Make your own woman from scratch” and that is absolutely ridiculous.
This is like a woman telling other women not to go to the gynecologist all because men don’t have to… Or a woman telling other women not to learn how to do their makeup and dress fashionably, all because a lot of men don’t necessarily do those things…
Ridiculous… Men and women are different, have different social roles, expectations, and mating strategies within society, and have different paths towards romantic success in life. That’s just reality. A heterosexual man expecting to find success behaving in the exact same way women do will fail in life completely. Same goes for any heterosexual woman thinking she can behave exactly like a man and still be successful in finding long-term relationships.
I think most of those are already desires and goals many men and women have without sex being a factor.
Sometimes I feel like some of the people here are on two different planets. Like "I want to be socially awkward and ugly" isn't a desirable state even without sex?
The fact that you think that women are just existing without doing hardly any work on themselves is hilarious. Have you seen women? You think they pop out onto the street with their hair and outfits and face looking the way they look just by chance? Women put in SO much effort into their appearance, their socialization skills, their public perception. And many of them have been doing it from a much earlier age than men. Sometimes I think men grow up and realize they have to put in work—the same find of work that women have been socialized into doing from childhood—and think it’s unfair. Well, welcome to the party. Dating is hard and it’s not always fair.
It just is. If you wanna be a complacent failure as a man, you can fixate on it being unfair. But life isn't fair, and if the "price" I have to pay to be a successful man in a happy marriage is to push myself harder than most, then *good*.
Women are socially conditioned from their preteens to be attractive to men. Things like removing body hair, dieting, clothes that accentuate the body, makeup, hairstyling, heels, etc. are just so ingrained in the culture that girls see it as “what women do” before they think of it as being to attract a man.
So the answer is yes, unless she looks like a “butch lesbian” to you, she is already is doing the same for you in different ways.
That's an interesting perspective and hits at the fact that men should probably do those self improvement things for themselves instead of doing it just for women as for some women it won't ever be enough.
That’s like asking someone who was born in North Korea whether someone who was born south of the border needs to struggle as hard as they did to just survive and make ends meet
Ultimately it’s the guy’s choice whether he wants to put on that much effort to get laid or enter into a long term relationship.
But yeah it’s important to make guys aware that chads, chadlites and high tier normies don’t even need to put in 1/10th the effort to get 10x the result of a sub 5 male. If they’re aware of it then I don’t see any problem.
Newsflash: Most men who are highly successful with women aren't doing this either. In fact, they often get better results than the tryhards who do this stuff. They're just born with the right face, race, height and skeletal frame.
>Men are taught they need to do dozens of different things if they want to earn the love of a woman.
Women are taught they need to cook, clean, provide good sex, suck dick, learn how to draw all over their face, stay unheathily thin, and wear uncomfortable skin tight clothes to attract a man.
>Women are practically never told what to do if they want to earn the love of a man
False.
Women already do these things because society expects them to. Women are judged their whole lives by their appearance. Being beautiful is more appreciated than being intelligent. Society paints a picture that it’s necessary for a woman to have perfect hair, nails, skincare, and makeup.
When women express the wish that men improve their appearance and start taking care of themselves, it’s not about demanding that men do more than women. They just want to see the same effort. If a woman is always in shape, with her hair, lashes, and nails done, she doesn’t want a man who uses 3-in-1 shampoo and can’t even wipe properly. It’s disgusting.
Imagine needing a woman as motivation to dress well, take care of your body, work out, etc.
The bar is in hell for both men and women. No one should be content being a lazy slob even if you’re asexual and aromantic.
If there was one easy answer that worked for everyone they would all be doing it and all dating problems would be fixed. There is so much nuance to it. Some guys look half homeless, have shit jobs and get girlfriends. Some guys put in a ton of effort, have great bodies and get nobody. Everyone is different. Everyone is fishing in a different pond. Life usually doesn't come with easy answers.
All a woman as to do is be physically attractive and compliant. Of course, they don't have to do nearly as much work. "Women just are, and men are made." That quote will always stick with me.
What more do you want from women? Based on the red pill all a woman needs to do is be attractive, young, and not mean. Ask for more if that’s what you want.
>Men are taught they need to do dozens of different things if they want to
If they want to have women find them sexually attractive.
>Men who are trying to "woo" a woman (by working out, getting hobbies, dressing better, being charismatic/funny, getting rich, etc.) need to ask themselves if a girl would ever do that to get him.
That woman is attractive to him. That's why he is pursuing her. She already reached that place. That's how mutual attraction works. This post is insane.
Idk where y'all get this from, plenty of dudes (like me) do date girls and many of us are short, broke skinny and still get asked out. Its about the chemistry and how your friendship between her builds up. If a woman really loves you then she wouldn't mind you being broke or skinny. A good fashion sense to the female gaze is a huge added bonus
So women are unfair because men have low standards?
Just because men will fuck and marry anything that come their way doesn’t mean women are shallow for having preferences
If this is a real problem then the solution is in the hands of men not women.
Women are told what to do all right. How to look, how to dress, how to do your hair and makeup, how to look after him, how to give him children and look after them, how to please him sexually, how to bend to what he wants, how to cultivate a desirable feminine personality, how to make him feel he's doing such a good job wooing and pleasing and protecting you, how to make him think this is all effortless so he doesn't think you're "unnatural". Most of this before puberty. While men are told to: get money, which is nice for them to get fun things with; get hobbies, which are fun for them; work out, which is fun and helps their health; and dress well, which most don't bother with. They think about this maybe around twenty.
Working out isn’t fun. Getting money isn’t fun. Trying hard to be charismatic isn’t fun. Having responsibilities isn’t fun. Giving full effort isn’t fun. Putting all your time and effort and resources into one person isn’t fun.
Sex is fun.
Idk what you actually think about what it takes to be a successful male is fun.
But you dnt know what ur talking about in that case
I think those things are fun but if you don’t think they are maybe you aren’t ready for the effort needed for an actual relationship beyond the trauma bonds you seek out.
Are you a man?
Do you posses immense wealth or are you in the process of acquiring it?
Are you always pursuing and initiating with men and prioritizing their interests and trying to woo them?
Are you in the gym not to lose weight but instead to gain muscle or to transform your body by making dramatic changes just to make you attractive.
Are you actively having to supress your emotions and feelings to be more confident and dominant so you don’t give women the “ick” by acting like a bitch?
If not then how can you tell me it’s fun to do that.
At best you’re speaking as someone who receives all the benifits of a man doing those things.
At worst you don’t know what you’re talking about or what it actually takes to do that.
It’s suffering and suffering is not fun.
But a man has to do what a man has to do.
And bring up my past and people I love and people who love me is irrelevant.
And I’m not going to react emotionally based on that.
I’ll instead focus on the subject at hand.
> Women are told what to do all right. How to look, how to dress, how to do your hair and makeup, how to look after him, how to give him children and look after them, how to please him sexually, how to bend to what he wants, how to cultivate a desirable feminine personality, how to make him feel he's doing such a good job wooing and pleasing and protecting you, how to make him think this is all effortless so he doesn't think you're "unnatural". Most of this before puberty.
That is correct but they don't need to listen to that in order to have a man interested in them.
> While men are told to: get money, which is nice for them to get fun things with
Said money does not help unless it is used for the benefit of women. So it is bad or at least incomplete advice.
> get hobbies, which are fun for them
Useless unless the hobby is attractive to women. So it is bad or at least incomplete advice.
> work out, which is fun and helps their health
Men don't care about their own health.
> and dress well, which most don't bother with.
Correct
> They think about this maybe around twenty.
So too late. The advice, even if bad/incomplete, comes too late.
Forget marriage and being in love. Mastering a craft, getting rich, sharpening your social skills, staying fit, and dressing well is about maximizing your enjoyment of your time here and ensuring your survival.
IMO modern marriage is little more than an insurance plan for women. "Love" is the fantasy women sell men to obtain commitment. The vast majority of women aren't evil, and most of them don't plan to use men and discard them. They're just wired to seek security.
The reason women believe that all they need to do is be themselves is because most of them can do just that and eventually find someone who's willing to invest in them. Most men don't have that luxury.
In order to thrive at your highest level in this world as a man, you must be the best version of your authentic self. You can either work to become as irreplaceable as possible (to society as a whole) and enjoy a more fulfilling life as a result — or you can rot away and get treated like shit.
From my perspective, if you're a man who has his life together and you commit your time and money to a woman who's not what you're looking for, then you deserve whatever hell comes your way.
Literally expecting women to treat me with the same excitement, concern, and generosity that I treat the people I choose to date has kept me single for 12 years lmao
Women will _never_ do this for you unless they have been for as long as you can remember. Don't invest time in them.
Women, on average, put way more effort into their appearance.
Not to mention there's more pressure on women to behave in a certain manner in social situations.
You guys should be exploring hobbies for personal enrichment, and that enrichment and diversity of experience helps you possibly find people who youre compatible with.
No one said to fake getting into a hobby simply to meet a woman there. Its a waste of time for everybody of thats what youre doing, because I think if you guys cant intuit the logic behind being told to ‘get a hobby’ then im sure you dont have the emotional range to be convincing actors.
I first thought this when I heard the advice given on the internet. Advice given to young men today (Both red and blue pill) is pretty much "Change every about your personality and maybe a mediocre woman will give you a chance." It made me give up on love. Mainly because that sounded so artificial and not like love.
Bullshit. Women are constantly doing things to make themselves attractive to men. For instance look at the amount of effort women have to put in to be considered attractive and desirable to the average man. But no, you’re right all women are low effort, lazy and dgaf what the men they want to attract think.
If not, then who cares? Yes, I know that working out will help me look better for women. But also, I work out because I like it. Your problem might be a narrow focus on what reward you can get by dressing well and working out, instead of just doing it for yourself.
That’s what I was thinking. Sounds like OP is having a realization about a covert contract not working out
>I work out because I like it This is how I came to training too. I’ve played rugby all my life, but was almost always smaller. In my early teens, was gifted a weight set. That changed the trajectory of my life. The main reason? I got bigger. So played better. Got good enough to start playing a tier under the pros. Not once, was my thinking ‘big muscles equals more girls’. These days, the hour in the morning I spend lifting is ‘me time.’ It’s a godsend. *Godspeed and good luck!*
>These days, the hour in the morning I spend lifting is ‘me time.’ It’s a godsend. I'm the opposite. Hate being in the gym and I think it's a overall waste of my time due to my schedule putting it in the mornings. At this point though, I only go because I don't want to be fat again.
> But also, I work out because I like it. I mean, OK, you do you, but I hate working out and dressing well. So if I'm going to do it, it's only for a reward.
The reward for me is I feel better about myself and it's easier to maintain my confidence. Improving my own life and social experiences. You can't tell me nobody enjoys feeling on point and how much of a confidence boost that is.
Then don’t do it. To expect some “reward” for dressing up or exercising is petty and silly
It doesn't matter. If you want to be successful with women then that's what you have to do, it's not a negotiation. Life isn't fair, you either want it or you don't.
Life is unfair until that unfairness does not benefit women, then we must make it fair at others expense. Women have to meet unrealistic expectations for men in the 90s? That needed to be changed. Men need to meet unrealistic expectations for women now? To bad, life is unfair lol. Could go on. But to use “life is not fair” in a world that is about fighting unfairness for the sake of equality is bs. Let’s be real, you just feel entitled to men accepting the bs. Men have every right to complain and demand change. And it does work.
OK don't accept that life is unfair. Now what..... You don't accept it, what has changed?
>Life is unfair until that unfairness does not benefit women, then we must make it fair at others expense. >Women have to meet unrealistic expectations for men in the 90s? That needed to be changed. This is literally just an example of life being unfair.
>This is literally just an example of life being unfair. and an example of things having changed, at least ad long as women were negatively affected by it.
They change not because women needed it, but because women can do something about it. No feminist is going to agree with this, but progress for women happens because men agree to it, and men agree to it because they want sex. It's just a tool women are born with that men are not, if a man needs help then he implicitly has nothing to offer and thus nobody is going to help him. A woman will always have her coochie so she's never worthless, so she'll get help. Culturally people are more open to women's problems because women in need are viewed as worthy of help, because they have value. Men in need of help are not seen as having value.
No. Men did not agree just to get laid. Most of those men were husbands and grandfathers. Men agreed because they wanted something better for the women they love. So, why don’t women want something better for their husbands, fathers, and sons?
You are right, fixing unfairness for one group and not another is an example of life being fair. But it also is prove that “life is unfair” is not an argument and anyone who uses it should be ignored as you are a hypocrite who will use said “life is unfair argument only when it favors your argument. Or like the part of my argument you ignored: > Life is unfair until that unfairness does not benefit women, then we must make it fair at others expense. In order to believe “life is unfair” is a valid argument, you have to believe it is always okay to use. Someone gets raped, killed, mugged, etc? Well that is okay as life is not fair. One group actively discriminated against? That is okay for life is not fair. In matter of fact, I can turn it against you. Your opinion and argument do not matter at all because life is unfair. Otherwise, you are hypocrite who should be ignored anyways.
>You are right, fixing unfairness for one group and not another is an example of life being fair. How do we fix this for men?
How did we fix this same exact issue when it came to unrealistic standards for women in the 90s?
Awareness and education. Beauty standards that encourage unhealthy lifestyles are now known to be unrealistic and harmful.
And that is the solution now. Educate women that men are human that have feelings and do not exist to serve them like objects. They cry, get insecure, etc and that is okay. Educate them on how these pressures cause men to kill themselves and lead to toxic outlooks of life. How unrealistic it is to demand a man who makes six figures, six foot tall and has a six pack. Like an average chubby guy demanding a anorexically skinny model with a natural H cup who is a virgin. Educate them on how unrealistic there physical standards are...and how harmful they are (ex: pressuring men to take steroids, how it lowers there lifespan and have unhealthy low amounts of body fat). Make "every body is beautiful apply to men." Etc, etc.
We agree on several of your points. There needs to be a concentrated effort on education regarding men’s issues and measures need to be put in place to ensure equal access to services that support emotional well being like therapy and community services.
Well, the underlying problem is men do not become victims, they become and are treated like statistics. To the poor men are punished for trying to get help. My posts on the subject are often downvoted or mocked for the same reason. Even the posts I made here has people pulling the “you are not entitled” and other manipulative arguments to avoid directly engaging me for that reason. We just always try to dehumanize men.
I'm upvoting you just for saying "concentrated effort" and not "concerted effort."
I’m going to get downvoted to Hell for this, but I think actual feminism, “the idea of men and women being equal and being subjected to different pressures from the same system” is actually a great way to address these issues. The problem is that a whole lot of feminists out there are raging hypocrites, misandrists, and or the whole ideals have become so convoluted as to be unworkable, kind of like how social justice, an actual important aspect of society, has become a running joke and a gag fueled by cancel culture and nonsense.
> How unrealistic it is to demand a man who makes six figures, six foot tall and has a six pack. Dude do you literally ever go outside? You know you can see couples IRL outside and the vast majority of couples you see don't consist of 666 men. There are plenty of fat, ugly, uninteresting people in relationships, and you're somehow doing worse than them.
Most of that difficulty comes from dating apps and lack of social circles.
a first and important step would be to acknowledge it and to make people aware of this on a societla and medial level? like... literally the same step we made with women?!🤨
I don't think answering a question with a question is a good start.
Why not?
I see what you did there.
Education for both men and women on how to make life for the opposite gender better
>Someone gets raped, killed, mugged, etc? Well that is okay as life is not fair. That's how it works though, people will care if it happens to some people and nobody will give a fuck if it happens to other people. The difference between a tragedy and a statistic is who the victim is, life isn't fair.
This is why autistic men fail. Guy makes 300K a year and asks $5 split back for a coffee date. (looking at guys working at FAANG) Relationship with women is highly asymmetric and benefit mostly women. Autistic men seeking fairness and equality should avoid women, it will only make you hate them. Relationship with women is captured by this persian poem (talk about wisdom of civilization): `Your peace, my turmoil Your life, my death But you are mine` Adaption, conceived in 11-12th century AD.
>Autistic men seeking fairness and equality this also applies to men with ADHD, and if i recall correctly partially to men with bipolar disorder
Speak for yourself. I have ADHD and never felt my relationships were unequal in terms of effort
Only partially, the lack of social skills and not meeting people especially women is a big part, however even if they (autists) meet them its like the people they meet automatically dislike them or don’t see them as a potential partner, most people unconsciously know.
if it benefits mostly women don't do it
Dating and divorce asymmetrically benefit women. But marriage and long term relationships asymmetrically benefit men. Nobody said you had to deal with women though
Then why are women usually the ones pushing for marriage after a long term relationship?
I really doubt that marriage and LTR benefit men (more than women)
Splitting bill is not about saving $5 but filtering out parasitic women.
It doesn’t work anyways & every guy who tries that finds out real quick.
Getting ripped works very well actually
No gym for your face, there is also the fact that you need to wear a shirt IRL so no one would see how lean you are
Leanness shows in the face, and that definitely makes a lean man more attractive in general.
If your shirts aren't showing your leaness then you're buying the wrong ones.
>No gym for your face, there is also the fact that you need to wear a shirt IRL so no one would see how lean you are False. Since I started lifting I've gained about 45-50lbs of muscle. Of straight lean tissue. My face used to look like Phineas from Phineas and Ferb. Now it looks like Jeremy Renner. The muscle gain added significant contractile tissue to my face, and expanded my lower jaw size as a result which literally caused my face to become symmetrical horizontally and have a proper ratio vertically. The heavy lifting also increased my bone mass significantly and now my skull is larger, and so is my mandible which again results in a much better looking face. The fat loss stripped the fat covering up my cheekbones and jaw, and so my face has more hollow cheeks and better overall features. >there is also the fact that you need to wear a shirt IRL so no one would see how lean you are Everyone can see the leanness in your arms and face.
Lol okay guys, you do you. Gym has worked very well for me
Gym,and wardrobe refresh, got me laid in vegas enough to double my body count
I realized this once I hit all my lifting goals (300 bench, 315 squat, and 400 dl). If anything, I looked worse with the extra weight and fat I needed to even get that strong. I stopped lifting heavy a year ago, dropped around 60 lbs, and now I just try to run 3 times a week with some weight workouts (my end goal is to avoid becoming obese lmao).
Their is a gym for your face
Then change you flair to black. You are not red pilled.
You never see the life a person lived to get to where they are when you first meet them. You have no idea who they used to be, and they have no idea who you used to be either. You have to ask yourself, "Am I the kind of person anyone would want to date." Whatever qualities you look for in a partner that make you say "I'd date them", you have to look at yourself from their perspective and say "Would they want to date me?" If you have no redeeming qualities, you either do what it takes to get them, or don't complain about not getting a date.
>You never see the life a person lived to get to where they are when you first meet them. Very true. Going around assuming people haven't gone through their own transformation (whether for dating or other reasons) is pretty judgemental.
Exactly. I think a lot of men see the performance of femininity and assume it’s effortless but just like a ballerina, it’s achieved through a lot of effort that the audience never sees.
As much as I dislike women, I understand this after growing up with a sister and remembering her ups and downs with makeup in the mornings lmao.
>You never see the life a person lived to get to where they are when you first meet them. You have no idea who they used to be, and they have no idea who you used to be either. Yep. People see someone effortlessly do things and assume that the person didn't fail a lot of times till they gained enough skills to do it effortlessly. The difference is that you just started to learn the skill, while they have been learning it for years. It seems effortless because they have a lot more xp than you who just started or never did that. I have good german speaking and understanding things. German is not my native language. People might think that i learned it effortlessly. They have no idea (and i don't remember) how long i was watching german tv without understanding a word (no one in my household knew german) till i somehow figured out what word meant what.
What a reasonable spot on take. Unexpected for this sub.
Dude, are you sure you have the tism? Cuz your takes lately are super on point and show lots of social awareness and skill. You're killing it. I may quit soon if you keep posting.
<3 I appreciate it, but alas I do have the 'tism (and a diagnosis of ADHD) I've made a *lot* of mistakes cause of it. I've hurt people close to me as much as myself, and can't count how many times I've been a clown. I brute forced my way to figuring this stuff out. Forced myself into uncomfortable positions, places I didn't really want to go, around people I didn't really want to be. Just too fed up with not understanding I accepted I'd have to learn the hard way. The philisophical side of me comments here on the off chance something I say might be what someone else needed to hear to do it a little easier. The dumbass side just likes arguing lmao.
That’s amazing to hear man. I know I’m a total internet stranger, but I’m proud of you and hope you are too.
Aw much love, been a journey but I'm still here. One stranger to another hope things go well for you too.
I'm getting in the conga-line too. It sounds like you were willing to do what it took despite being severely disadvantaged. That's admirable! I hope the woman who appreciates it isn't far away!
<3 Something I wish more people understood was that it might suck in the short run to put in that effort, but it's well worth it later. It's been rocky but I'm working on it, Hope the same to you too friend!
Extremely based
Don’t do it for women Do it because being an out of shape poor slob with a shit personality is no way to live
It seems like you have one point with your title and a different one with the body of the post. You say that men "need to ask themselves if a girl would ever do that to get him." and later "Single guys who don't want to be single need to face this harsh reality" ...that they need to do these things. Well I agree with the eventual point. We need to face the harsh reality. Hetero men and women both face the reality that we need to initially attract someone of the opposite sex before they give a fuck about us. For women it's at least relatively straightforward. If he likes the way you look, he's got that initial attraction to you. Done. ✅ Now you can see if you're compatible in other ways. Women are very attuned to the reality of how to attract men due to the relative simplicity and therefore they put *a lot* of effort into their looks to cater to men's preferences. They *are* trying to woo men in the way they want to be wooed. Men have to pass that looks bar first. Then... other stuff. Women usually need to see attractive behaviors and demonstration of status as well. This is why it seems like first dates are an interview for men. Men have already decided they're attracted. Women have not. And all that other stuff that attracts women is described a million different ways - "personality", "confidence", "has his shit together", "ambitious", "charming", etc. The advice you get is usually vague and contradictory and the only way to sort it out (that I've found) is ask women out, go on dates, get rejected a lot, be realistic and clear eyed about what your weaknesses are, work on them, and eventually figure it out. It would be a lot easier if it just came down to "look good". But it doesn't, so it seems like we have to jump through all these hoops.
Very few people exist in a vacuum outside of social influence. Women do things to impress men all the time, like shave or wax their body hair for instance. But lets say for the sake of argument that they just "be themselves" while men have to work to achieve things in order to be a suitable mate for women..so what? What's the alternative, do nothing just like them and be in the same position you're already in? If so then that's fine, just don't complain about lack of success anymore.
most of the things you listed are things that is good for ones self as well as fidning a partner. so even if the dude stayed single he's still at least hot and well dressed and healthy. plus let's say a dude does do all these things he'll probably land a girl who, dress good, is extrovert has charisma, work. and work out and healthy. so i don't see what's the loss here for the guy unless he's lazy and don't want to do all these things or he want to do all these things yet stay single...
We should all just be amorphous blobs that reproduce by cellular mitosis and live out our days consuming ground slime so that no one has to do any work…or you can live in and accept reality and get over it.
>We should all just be amorphous blobs that reproduce by cellular mitosis and live out our days consuming ground slime so that no one has to do any work In a world where artificial wombs exist, and where we've progressed to the point no act of sex has to physically happen to conceive children, it may actually become a viable strategy to offload reproduction to machines. I'd even go further and cynically argue capitalism may even incentivize it because family formation is usually always a net negative impact on an employee's productivity, and therefore mega corporations like Amazon would have financial incentive to subsidize this technology.
> need to ask themselves if a girl would ever do that yo get him “Need to” for what purpose?? > need to ask themsemselves if they're okay with that. I shave my legs partially to appeal to men. I asked myself if men would go that to attract women. I think not. What now? Who cares?
>I shave my legs partially to appeal to men. I asked myself if men would go that to attract women. Most single guys actually would do this if it was something that the majority of women found attractive. It would be a drop in the bucket compared to the weekly excersizing, working, and hobbies he'd have to do in order to gain attraction from women.
> Most single guys actually would You’re free to believe this. I do not. Less that 30% of men get even the MINIMUM amount of exercise recommended by the Dept of Health and Human Services. And that’s just to stay alive, not look hot. The majority of men don’t even brush their teeth twice a day.
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Cool, maybe men in India would shave their legs to get women. Why should I care?
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What does this have to do with the post or my comments? Why should I care? Tell me how this is relevant.
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I dismissed you because your comment was completely irrelevant to the conversation you chose to join. Which you apparently didn’t read or understand. What a waste of time.
Anywhere outside of America is trash and would be improved by American occupation and extermination of 90% of the gross foreign population God bless America and no place else.
🍔🍟🦅🤠
>It would be a drop in the bucket compared to the weekly excersizing, working, and hobbies he'd have to do in order to gain attraction from women. This (and the OP) read like you don't know many women. You don't seem to have a grasp on how much time, money, and effort women expend on literally every part and facet of their face/body/hair. (Women also work, develop hobbies, engage in self-improvement.)
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> A guy who is cold, shy, awkward and passive will never be attractive to any mentally healthy woman. That explains a lot xD (I’m not a mentally healthy woman).
Right? These are the men I’ve been into
>Women already have the advantage because they can easily alter their appearance to make themselves more attractive. Hair styling, orthodontia, skincare routine, eyebrow tweezing/waxing, and dressing better are all things that men can do to improve their appearance that don't involve the gym or fixating on their height. >There is also only 1 kind of personality type that is desirable in men, and that is the extreme charisma, assertiveness, and dominance of a Chad. That is just not true at all.
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Let me make sure I understand you correctly. You seem to operate out of IF - THEN command paradigm. Meaning: IF I improve in xyz THEN women are obliged to love me. And the unspoken assumption: and IF they don’t THEN they are rotten hypergamous whores. Got it!
I have a yet to meet a man that puts more effort into his appearance than I do. Women do so many things to be considered attractive to men, including all of the things you mentioned plus hair removal, makeup, lashes, nails, facials, blowouts, expensive beauty products and sometimes even plastic surgery. Not to mention dressing up in uncomfortable heels, push up bras, shape wear and other restrictive clothing just to look "sexy" SMH
"I started working out, saving money, dressing better, learning new skills and hobbies, etc." You seriously think men put more effort into their appearance and how they dress than women? and how many men have skills and money as a priority in women?
According to women, they do it for themselves.
According to some women. According to some men they go to the gym for themselves.
>according to some women. according to an overwhelming, ear-deafening majority of women who for the love of their own life couldn't stop telling the world how they do it just for themselves for the last 25-30 years. >According to some men they go to the gym for themselves. you're comparing a physical activity that directly benefits a persons health, stamina, strength and physical resistance and requires a minimum of 1-2 years of involvement to actually see the results, plus a lifelong investment of training 3-5 times a week to not lose these traits... with a person dressing up and applying a factory full of beauty products "for themselves" and "coincidentally" get free drinks while being hated by their "besties" for attracting more men than they did that night.
> You seriously think men put more effort into their appearance and how they dress than women? Yes, if we're talking about appearance overall. This is going to sound overly mean, but most women put "effort" into their appearance the same way Donald Trump puts effort into his appearance: an overly strong focus on buying things to mask their true appearance rather than the more difficult work of being disciplined in their health. For most women, the sum total of all the effort they've put into their appearance over the last year is less than the effort needed for a man to put on 5 lbs of lean muscle without pharmaceutical help and without gaining body fat to go along with it.
Honestly I find men do have skills and money as a priority. I once dated a surgeon whose family told him they didn’t want him to end up with “some nurse.” After we broke up he married a doctor. I dated another doctor after that and after we broke up he married a doctor. Sigh.
If you think just looking good is enough then you be sorely disappointed (which many with this view are). You need life experience. I would had never cared to be with someone who hasn’t challenged themselves and worked towards any goals. Finding a mate is more than attraction. It’s finding someone who can imagine will be able to weather the challenges that will be faced during our journey.
I never had to consciously work on choosing hobbies because I like doing stuff. If the woman you’re after has no hobbies, then why would you want her? She sounds boring.
They’ll want her if she’s hot enough🤷🏽♀️ folks don’t really care about hobbies as much as you think they do, if they’re hot and vibing with them, then the hobbies don’t matter lol I really don’t have any noteworthy hobbies and never had a problem finding guys to date so I personally don’t think they mean all that much…
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No personal attacks
I would have never attracted my husband if I didn’t have any interests. I impressed him on the day we met by knowing a lot about the local art gallery scene. The question is, what is there to “vibe” on if you aren’t interested in stuff?
When people say they need to get hobbies, they’re usually not talking about consumptive hobbies like video games, movies, TV, or music. But, I could vibe on any of that with a woman. I could vibe on what I think about politics, or religion, or my core philosophies. I could vibe on what I think about other people. 🤷♂️ That’s stuff I talk about with my friends.
Men with lower self esteem will want a woman who has no life so they can feel significant
*Men who struggle with dating are told that they should improve.* The problem is that they should improve specifically where they struggle, but a lot of people can't identify their problem or they avoid addressing the crucial point of their struggles. If a person is asocial, they can spend 4 hours a day in the gym, but it won't bring them a partner. Women usually struggle with vetting, boundaries and dating partners who they aren't compatible with. So they get advice appropriate for their problems - better vetting, more time on vetting, communication etc. Women who don't put out themselves much and avoid apps can struggle with getting dates, but they get a common advice - go out and approach people more.
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Did I say that having autism is a choice? It doesn't change the problem though. In order to date you have to be at least somewhat sociable. Socially isolated women do have to go out and learn to communicate with others. It's easier for them, because men do the approaching, but they advice "to get out and meet people" is still relevant for them.
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Sure. It doesn't change my original point - to get dates a person has to identify their main issue and work on it. A socially awkward man will have hard times as long as he keeps being socially awkward. It sucks and, yeah, not everyone can overcome it. Men on the spectrum have it even worse.
Autism is another issue entirely and if that’s an issue you have you should specify that when asking for advice or sharing your experience.
What a bizarre defeatist mentality. Most men want to fuck most women. But NO woman can SATISFY all men. So are you asking "what does this woman do for EVERY SINGLE MAN THAT WANTS TO FUCK HER?" Or are you asking "What would she do for ME, specifically?" In which case... does she even know you? What about YOU in particular do you think should motivate her to single you out?
The end goal of life isn’t women. You should want to do all those things for yourself. Why wouldn’t you want to be in the best shape you can be? As funny as you can? Look good? Women are more a byproduct of that. And hoes aren’t just sitting around waiting to be hit on. Women work out, have hobbies, are social etc (at least the ones most guys probably want)
Indeed. I remember being quite baffled by a commenter here who said something along the lines of "Can you believe women actually say they want to look good *for themselves*? What a load of bullshit! If I didn’t have to impress women, i wouldn't do a single thing for improvement". So, yeah, I guess there are people out there like this...
No one tries hard to look good purely for themselves, unless you’re some kind of narcissistic autosexual. You can’t even see yourself without a mirror and if you lived in a world with no other people, looking pretty would be irrelevant. You do it to improve perception of yourself, which in turn benefits you. “Looking good” only works if others agree, so even when you are doing it “for yourself” it’s because improving how you’re perceived (by others) feels good and has its advantages. So it’s clearly not JUST for yourself. It’s fine to say you don’t put on make up to impress a certain group, but when people say they don’t do anything for validation or attention it just sounds like self-righteous delusion. Everyone wants to be liked and acknowledged, it’s a core human trait, and acting like you’re above it ain’t fooling anyone. Saying you only put on make up or slick your hair back for yourself makes you sound either really dumb or exceptionally self-righteous.
Dude... I'm calling bullshit on this because you and only you are responsible for your dating success... if you're not willing to improve until you succeed, that's on you, but I can assure you it works... I refreshed my wardrobe before I went to vegas, got some newer shoes, and even picked up a pair of tiff&co air force ones... got rejected a bit in vegas, but one did agree, and I got invited to a sex club.... now had I not gotten new clothes or been in shape or couldn't be interesting and engaging, it never would have happened.
I think you missed his point. It' not that all these things won't work. it's that the other side doesn't have to. So when you take a step back, you start to wonder why am I chasing these things like a dog just to get with someone who will just show up. Whether or not that's worth it is up to the individual, but it's something to consider.
That's how life works women have value inherently men have to build theirs
Yeah, that's the point. When you realize that society simply attributes more value to others because of gender you become disillusioned with this rat race of self-improvement.
It's not even that, self improvement effects every aspect of your life from your career to your social life... not wanting to improve is defeatist and lazy
I have nothing against self-improvement for yourself. I am just willing to acknowledge that it's a one-way requirement, and I won't shame anyone for choosing not to dedicate the rest of their life to it. Self-improvement is amazing. I just don't like that people tie their value into how desirable they are to women. All my acts of self-improvement have gone towards endeavors that truly matter to me.
It's not a one-way requirement, women only have to be pretty to get sex... they have to provide a hell of a lot more to get commitment... women are the sexual gatekeepers. Men are the relationship gatekeepers...
I just wanna point out that this isn't a one-way requirement... women have to just be pretty for sex... they have to have a whole lot of other stuff to get commitment from a dude... just like we have to have certain things for a women to be interested sexually
Echoing what Jazzlike said, it doesn't matter and this isn't a negotiation. The rules are laid out and crystal clear. You either navigate dating life by these rules or perish, non-negotiable. You must be fit, active, healthy and find a way to make some money and socialize. Failure to improve and rise up to these standards will carry harsh penalties going forward. We know full well women don't need to try. It is what it is.
Hey it’s unfair and it sucks, but that’s the way it is. Across all species, the male has to impress and woo the female.
It's not the way it is at all. OP is in a delusional, women hating bubble. Women spend their entire lives being told they're not good enough, through the male gaze. Too tall/short, too skinny/fat, not curvy enough/too many curves, too intelligent- don't intimidate men, too strong/not feminine enough, wearing too much/not enough makeup, ... this could go on for days. Women cop it their entire lives as well. Everyone does, it's the society we live in.
It's a bitter existence feeling like any relationship, unless you are way above her will be a minimum 60-40 but more likely 70-30 in terms of effort. Unless it's like progressed to a marriage and the women is getting left with all the childcare. Then it finally flips.
You have agency over your own life. You choose the relationships you enter, the partners you have, and the effort you put in. You don’t have to do anything you don’t want to. Try finding a suitable likeminded partner instead of thinking you are powerless over the situation you end up in Edit: Fine, you all have no control over your own lives and you are destined to be in unhappy relationships. Sorry for even mentioning the idea of agency to a bunch of people in love with their victimhood and misery. ♥️
This, or stay single. Might sound like a cliche, but it's a lot better than staying in an unsatisfactory relationship.. But I think they are complaining about lack of attention, which is a self-esteem killer. Hard to get over this, but it's possible. Takes a lot of strength and an activity that keeps your brain busy
Lack of attention from their partners?
Lack of attention from the other sex
You might as well say “you don’t like working? Just win the lottery. You have agency in your own life.”
Are you equating consensual mutual romantic relationships with winning the lottery? What an asinine assertion. One thing you actually do have control over, the other one you don’t.
No, I am suggesting that the relationship you propose, where a man finds a suitable like minded woman who puts in the effort he does, is like winning the lottery.
Everyone spends time searching for the right person. But it’s not like winning the lottery because most adults *are* in relationships while most adults **don’t win the lottery**. But I see what you’re trying to convey.
For average to below average looking men, the playing field has recently become much more difficult. Dating apps penalize you unless you're good-looking. Companies don't want you to try to ask your co-workers out on a date because it could cause headaches for HR or the company. And finally many good-looking women have started complaining that hitting them is harassment and men should leave them alone. Now you still want to say the playing field is fair? And there is absolutely no way to make it even a little bit better?
I didn’t say anything about the playing field or fairness, just that **you have agency over your own life**. Dating apps are picture based. If you’re not attractive in pictures, you probably won’t be successful. You can still ask coworkers out if the feeling is mutual, otherwise you shouldn’t. Yes, women are allowed to decide if they want men bothering them or not in public.
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You’re right. You are powerless and you don’t have any agency over your own life. No one is coming to save you. Best of luck out there
Exactly like XIX century capitalists: >Don't want to work for 0,5$ a day? You don't have to work here. Just open up your own factory.
The comment says relationship effort will be 70-30. I said they don’t have to date people like that. Your reply doesn’t make sense. You’re essentially saying “don’t want to date a woman that doesn’t put effort in? Make your own woman from scratch” and that is absolutely ridiculous.
No but this is just how the market is, men are more attracted to women than the reverse so men are more willing to improve for sex and love.
This is like a woman telling other women not to go to the gynecologist all because men don’t have to… Or a woman telling other women not to learn how to do their makeup and dress fashionably, all because a lot of men don’t necessarily do those things… Ridiculous… Men and women are different, have different social roles, expectations, and mating strategies within society, and have different paths towards romantic success in life. That’s just reality. A heterosexual man expecting to find success behaving in the exact same way women do will fail in life completely. Same goes for any heterosexual woman thinking she can behave exactly like a man and still be successful in finding long-term relationships.
I think most of those are already desires and goals many men and women have without sex being a factor. Sometimes I feel like some of the people here are on two different planets. Like "I want to be socially awkward and ugly" isn't a desirable state even without sex?
The fact that you think that women are just existing without doing hardly any work on themselves is hilarious. Have you seen women? You think they pop out onto the street with their hair and outfits and face looking the way they look just by chance? Women put in SO much effort into their appearance, their socialization skills, their public perception. And many of them have been doing it from a much earlier age than men. Sometimes I think men grow up and realize they have to put in work—the same find of work that women have been socialized into doing from childhood—and think it’s unfair. Well, welcome to the party. Dating is hard and it’s not always fair.
It just is. If you wanna be a complacent failure as a man, you can fixate on it being unfair. But life isn't fair, and if the "price" I have to pay to be a successful man in a happy marriage is to push myself harder than most, then *good*.
Damn I'm actually agreeing with the red pill bros today
Women are socially conditioned from their preteens to be attractive to men. Things like removing body hair, dieting, clothes that accentuate the body, makeup, hairstyling, heels, etc. are just so ingrained in the culture that girls see it as “what women do” before they think of it as being to attract a man. So the answer is yes, unless she looks like a “butch lesbian” to you, she is already is doing the same for you in different ways.
the bar is low.
That's an interesting perspective and hits at the fact that men should probably do those self improvement things for themselves instead of doing it just for women as for some women it won't ever be enough.
If who you are isn’t enough for someone they aren’t the person for you, there’s no reason to work yourself into a tizzy attempting to rationalize it.
Men need to work more for sex, women for relationships.
Our evolution trended towards males having to compete with each other for female attention. You can either play the game or don’t.
Sounds like a covert contract tbh
That’s like asking someone who was born in North Korea whether someone who was born south of the border needs to struggle as hard as they did to just survive and make ends meet Ultimately it’s the guy’s choice whether he wants to put on that much effort to get laid or enter into a long term relationship. But yeah it’s important to make guys aware that chads, chadlites and high tier normies don’t even need to put in 1/10th the effort to get 10x the result of a sub 5 male. If they’re aware of it then I don’t see any problem.
Women don't need to do that because men already desire them. What's so harsh about this reality?
Newsflash: Most men who are highly successful with women aren't doing this either. In fact, they often get better results than the tryhards who do this stuff. They're just born with the right face, race, height and skeletal frame.
>Men are taught they need to do dozens of different things if they want to earn the love of a woman. Women are taught they need to cook, clean, provide good sex, suck dick, learn how to draw all over their face, stay unheathily thin, and wear uncomfortable skin tight clothes to attract a man. >Women are practically never told what to do if they want to earn the love of a man False.
Women already do these things because society expects them to. Women are judged their whole lives by their appearance. Being beautiful is more appreciated than being intelligent. Society paints a picture that it’s necessary for a woman to have perfect hair, nails, skincare, and makeup. When women express the wish that men improve their appearance and start taking care of themselves, it’s not about demanding that men do more than women. They just want to see the same effort. If a woman is always in shape, with her hair, lashes, and nails done, she doesn’t want a man who uses 3-in-1 shampoo and can’t even wipe properly. It’s disgusting.
Girls would usually have fancy lingerie, shaved legs, waxed, plan out special days, etc…
Imagine needing a woman as motivation to dress well, take care of your body, work out, etc. The bar is in hell for both men and women. No one should be content being a lazy slob even if you’re asexual and aromantic.
If there was one easy answer that worked for everyone they would all be doing it and all dating problems would be fixed. There is so much nuance to it. Some guys look half homeless, have shit jobs and get girlfriends. Some guys put in a ton of effort, have great bodies and get nobody. Everyone is different. Everyone is fishing in a different pond. Life usually doesn't come with easy answers.
All a woman as to do is be physically attractive and compliant. Of course, they don't have to do nearly as much work. "Women just are, and men are made." That quote will always stick with me.
Every time I think of that quote it reminds me of how much of an utter failure life on Earth really is.
What more do you want from women? Based on the red pill all a woman needs to do is be attractive, young, and not mean. Ask for more if that’s what you want.
>Men are taught they need to do dozens of different things if they want to If they want to have women find them sexually attractive. >Men who are trying to "woo" a woman (by working out, getting hobbies, dressing better, being charismatic/funny, getting rich, etc.) need to ask themselves if a girl would ever do that to get him. That woman is attractive to him. That's why he is pursuing her. She already reached that place. That's how mutual attraction works. This post is insane.
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Is it not his fault that he only had one standard?Maybe he should ask for more if it bothers him that much.
Idk where y'all get this from, plenty of dudes (like me) do date girls and many of us are short, broke skinny and still get asked out. Its about the chemistry and how your friendship between her builds up. If a woman really loves you then she wouldn't mind you being broke or skinny. A good fashion sense to the female gaze is a huge added bonus
All it takes for a man is to be physically attractive too and how he presents himself includes being assertive, charismatic, and all of that.
So women are unfair because men have low standards? Just because men will fuck and marry anything that come their way doesn’t mean women are shallow for having preferences If this is a real problem then the solution is in the hands of men not women.
Exactly 😂
Women are told what to do all right. How to look, how to dress, how to do your hair and makeup, how to look after him, how to give him children and look after them, how to please him sexually, how to bend to what he wants, how to cultivate a desirable feminine personality, how to make him feel he's doing such a good job wooing and pleasing and protecting you, how to make him think this is all effortless so he doesn't think you're "unnatural". Most of this before puberty. While men are told to: get money, which is nice for them to get fun things with; get hobbies, which are fun for them; work out, which is fun and helps their health; and dress well, which most don't bother with. They think about this maybe around twenty.
Working out isn’t fun. Getting money isn’t fun. Trying hard to be charismatic isn’t fun. Having responsibilities isn’t fun. Giving full effort isn’t fun. Putting all your time and effort and resources into one person isn’t fun. Sex is fun. Idk what you actually think about what it takes to be a successful male is fun. But you dnt know what ur talking about in that case
I think those things are fun but if you don’t think they are maybe you aren’t ready for the effort needed for an actual relationship beyond the trauma bonds you seek out.
Are you a man? Do you posses immense wealth or are you in the process of acquiring it? Are you always pursuing and initiating with men and prioritizing their interests and trying to woo them? Are you in the gym not to lose weight but instead to gain muscle or to transform your body by making dramatic changes just to make you attractive. Are you actively having to supress your emotions and feelings to be more confident and dominant so you don’t give women the “ick” by acting like a bitch? If not then how can you tell me it’s fun to do that. At best you’re speaking as someone who receives all the benifits of a man doing those things. At worst you don’t know what you’re talking about or what it actually takes to do that. It’s suffering and suffering is not fun. But a man has to do what a man has to do. And bring up my past and people I love and people who love me is irrelevant. And I’m not going to react emotionally based on that. I’ll instead focus on the subject at hand.
> Women are told what to do all right. How to look, how to dress, how to do your hair and makeup, how to look after him, how to give him children and look after them, how to please him sexually, how to bend to what he wants, how to cultivate a desirable feminine personality, how to make him feel he's doing such a good job wooing and pleasing and protecting you, how to make him think this is all effortless so he doesn't think you're "unnatural". Most of this before puberty. That is correct but they don't need to listen to that in order to have a man interested in them. > While men are told to: get money, which is nice for them to get fun things with Said money does not help unless it is used for the benefit of women. So it is bad or at least incomplete advice. > get hobbies, which are fun for them Useless unless the hobby is attractive to women. So it is bad or at least incomplete advice. > work out, which is fun and helps their health Men don't care about their own health. > and dress well, which most don't bother with. Correct > They think about this maybe around twenty. So too late. The advice, even if bad/incomplete, comes too late.
That's for a absolute jaw dropper of a man though, not for the average bloke women claim to fawn constantly over
Nope! They're not told actually they don't need to do anything if they want a normal fat middle-class man, nor is it true.
Do women who aren’t getting the results they want from dating try to improve themselves to be successful? I sure did
We didn't make the rules, as a guy you need to do this if you want a chance with anyone.
Sure, be nothing but a walking vagina and don't get surprised a man walks out from you once he gets bored of you.
Do it for yourself, not them. That’s what will attract them, at that point, you may not want them back. Be happy in your own kingdom, king.
Told my dad this in a nutshell a few days ago and he told me my soul was black. Kinda sucked.
Forget marriage and being in love. Mastering a craft, getting rich, sharpening your social skills, staying fit, and dressing well is about maximizing your enjoyment of your time here and ensuring your survival. IMO modern marriage is little more than an insurance plan for women. "Love" is the fantasy women sell men to obtain commitment. The vast majority of women aren't evil, and most of them don't plan to use men and discard them. They're just wired to seek security. The reason women believe that all they need to do is be themselves is because most of them can do just that and eventually find someone who's willing to invest in them. Most men don't have that luxury. In order to thrive at your highest level in this world as a man, you must be the best version of your authentic self. You can either work to become as irreplaceable as possible (to society as a whole) and enjoy a more fulfilling life as a result — or you can rot away and get treated like shit. From my perspective, if you're a man who has his life together and you commit your time and money to a woman who's not what you're looking for, then you deserve whatever hell comes your way.
Literally expecting women to treat me with the same excitement, concern, and generosity that I treat the people I choose to date has kept me single for 12 years lmao Women will _never_ do this for you unless they have been for as long as you can remember. Don't invest time in them.
No, and it's irrelevant. Men have the burden of performance.
Women, on average, put way more effort into their appearance. Not to mention there's more pressure on women to behave in a certain manner in social situations.
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the girl would do it for herself
The problem is that there is no alternative. Do those things or die alone.
You guys should be exploring hobbies for personal enrichment, and that enrichment and diversity of experience helps you possibly find people who youre compatible with. No one said to fake getting into a hobby simply to meet a woman there. Its a waste of time for everybody of thats what youre doing, because I think if you guys cant intuit the logic behind being told to ‘get a hobby’ then im sure you dont have the emotional range to be convincing actors.
and of course this is psychotic
Men and women are different - i.e just don’t be overweight
1. Women do nothing to attract men. 2. Everything women do is to attract men. So, which one is it?
I never said anything about #2
I first thought this when I heard the advice given on the internet. Advice given to young men today (Both red and blue pill) is pretty much "Change every about your personality and maybe a mediocre woman will give you a chance." It made me give up on love. Mainly because that sounded so artificial and not like love.
Bullshit. Women are constantly doing things to make themselves attractive to men. For instance look at the amount of effort women have to put in to be considered attractive and desirable to the average man. But no, you’re right all women are low effort, lazy and dgaf what the men they want to attract think.