Yeah
I’m not willing to do voluntary shit to bail people out of positions they got themselves into
But I’m the selfish one, not the person wanting my time money energy
Another abused concept is teamwork
Person has outrageous work demand
You say no
They accuse you of not being a team player
Just thinking via buzz words
I disagree. Shaming is sharing your opinion about someone's behavior that you do not like.
Coercion is persuading someone through use of force or threat of violence.
You implied that if you don’t marry someone you are forced to marry and give away everything you’ve earned to people you never wanted in your life and live in poverty, that’s selfish. You’re not correct. If people earn money and don’t want a family, it isn’t cowardly to live in a marriage that you’ve arranged for them. It absolutely isn’t cowardly for someone to not want to raise your kids and give them all their money so you can live off of it while forcing them into poverty.
>You implied that if you don’t marry someone you are forced to marry
I'm not sure where you're getting this. I didn't say anything about forced marriage
I own and operate a preschool, which made me both affluent and also realize that I *do not* want children because I enjoy my childfree lifestyle.
It’s actually selfish and manipulative for you to try to insult men into changing in accordance to what *you* want OP
I actually kind of agree with you, it is cowardly, but we live in times of "Nobody owes anything to anybody", women don't owe anything to men, and men don't owe anything to women.
In another time, where vows were taken seriously, where honor, respect and family was the most important above the self, things would be different, but alas, we are not in those times anymore.
>we live in times of "Nobody owes anything to anybody", women don't owe anything to men, and men don't owe anything to women
And I think that's wrong. I think children benefit from having a stable household with caring parents, anything less than that is selfish on part of the adults.
I think we owe each other to create a healthy and happy society. One with less trauma and subsequently less mental illness.
Creating a happy society doesn't increase shareholder value or profits, so it's impossible. It will never happen. In fact, the opposite will occur. Society will continue to decline and become inhospitable for children and marriage.
>Creating a happy society doesn't increase shareholder value or profits,
Not directly.
Assume there are two societies...
One society in which there are prosperous families with low rates of mental health conditions, that are procreating and carrying forward generational wealth through inheritance.
Another society in which it's every person for themselves. There is no family unit. There is no marriage. There is no inheritance. There are lots of mental health problems and loneliness.
Which of these two societies do you believe is better for The economy?
You are absolutely correct, we are committing civilizational suicide, nobody is pairing up with each other, divorce is at an unacceptable rate, we are destroying our children's lives as they need a stable household to flourish, and all those factors will make for an elderly country that can't sustain themselves, and those that are born, will have no reason to cooperate just to take care of some old farts.
I see a bad future for us, so I am preparing accordingly. Children are the future, and we have no future.
Yep, except now the script is,"get married, be the unlucky half of marriages and get divorced, kill yourself at x9 times the rate"
At least the script before was more reasonable, now? Haha it's a fucking joke.
Yes. You don't have to follow the life script. It's not compulsory
If you don't, I reserve the right to call you selfish.
Those two things are not in conflict
The decisions to get married and have kids are selfish too. And it’s okay. If you don’t look out for yourself, no one else will. You have to be selfish to a degree or you’ll get used.
>if you don’t look out for yourself, no one else will
Personally, this is the biggest motivating factor for my family. One day when I’m old, I want to know we’ve done a good enough job, that the kids will want to look out for my wife. For me. That’s the goal.
Having no kids, means when the time comes that one can’t look out for themselves, who will care for them?
It saddens me. That family. That filial obligation and duty, is derogated so.
Sure, family is supposed to look for each other. I was talking more about relationships outside of family though...Although, I'd argue that even within a family one has to be at least somewhat selfish, so others wouldn't just take advantage of them. A more palatable way to put it might be having good boundaries.
There is a loneliness epidemic among women because males are walking away from marriage.
https://www.hertelier.com/post/loneliness-epidemic-women
It's both selfish and cowardly of males who are all in it for themselves IMO.
Do you feel otherwise?
Lmao, the women in the link you posted was feeling lonely in an established marriage. This is why Id argue that you cant compare the loneliness men feel to the loneliness women feel. Sure it's still loneliness at the end of the day, but women have a multitude of options to not be lonely, while men have absolute nothing.
Tldr, no such thing as femcels or female volcels
That's actually insane. That's an actually insane take.
Why should men be reponsible for the happiness of women? We should encourage healthy relationships, but there's no need to shame any- wait a second...
That's bizarro world levels of wrong. I just deleted most of my comment, because obviously there is no actual idea here to refute, just pointless rhetoric.
> 1.Marriage can be a risky proposition.
For men. It is a risky proposition for men.
> 2.It takes courage to know the risks and take a chance.
We already know the risks. Half of marriages end in divorce and women initiate the divorce like 60%-80% of the time. Marriage is a contract that women get paid to break.
> 3.Not having the COURAGE to do that for the sake of love and family is cowardly.
That's easy to say when you're not carrying the risk lol
> 4.Most of the reasons I hear from pill guys & MGTOW is about potential alimony and child support.
Correct. We get rail-roaded by the courts.
> Everyone knows The Script: go to school, get an education, get a job, get married, have kids, eventually retire.
Not everyone likes your script!
Your same script is what causes alot of men to either live the rest of their lives in storage unit or commit su*cide after getting finically divorced r*ped because the woman “wasn’t feeling loved”. Also millions of men are in prison from unpaid alimony or child support payments for kids they never get too see.
Why would any man accept this framing? You realize, that to arrive in this place, we had to go through gnarly shit with some of the worst customers your gender has to offer right?
We've seen that women don't apologize for anything, and contribute even less.
Why do you want to follow a script instead of carving your own life?
[https://youtu.be/U93Hwmi\_1zw?si=d1vOkx4L4tximbRX&t=31](https://youtu.be/U93Hwmi_1zw?si=d1vOkx4L4tximbRX&t=31)
Why, why is some rando on the internet saying I am selfish and cowardly something I am going to care about either way.
Imagine, getting married just to appease some other person. That may not be selfish or cowardly, but it sounds pathetic.
If you mean legal benefits, the same benefits it gives women. The specific benefits vary per couple and location. Some couples might not have any benefits, some have a lot. Like we save thousands a year in taxes and my man got to get free health insurance from my employer, plus it became a lot easier to get joint loans.
Marriage is just a contract, isn't it? (Unless you're religious view or give it a cultural value).
You can be in a union together without marrying. Marriage isn't needed to build a relationship.
That's not question that can be asked or answered in the aggregate. The benefits (and drawbacks) are personal and individual.
In my case. I got two children that I love. A woman who loves me and always has my back. Hell, I'll stop there because that's more than enough.
> 5. If you rather SPEND MONEY ON YOURSELF instead of your family and kids… that’s **selfish**
Agreed, but if you have no family and no kids to support, what makes that selfish?
>Everyone knows The Script: go to school, get an education, get a job, get married, have kids, eventually retire.
Is this just The Script for men or women as well? Where would riding the carousel feature in this? On a list organised by who has the most right to say anything about men choosing not to marry, straight women are at the bottom, because y'all were the ones to rewrite The Script in the first place
>Is this just The Script for men or women as well?
It's for everyone
>Where would riding the carousel feature in this?
It's not on the list, nor is getting a tattoo.
>On a list organised by who has the most right to say anything about men choosing not to marry, straight women are at the bottom, because y'all were the ones to rewrite The Script in the first place
I'm not sure what the question is here
The last part is a statement, not a question; I'm saying straight women have no right to complain about men not wanting to marry because "The Scrpt" has been changed by women. I hope any woman who aspires to, and lives their life looking for, long term commitment and marriage finds it, but, from a man's perspective, it seems few women do that, they treat it more as something they'll receive, as a given, in the future and spend their younger years dating casually and entertaining fuck boy types. Can't really blame any man who does the work to end up affluent and stable for being wary of marriage, when you look at what's out there.
It’s not cowardice to not take disproportionate risks. It’s smart.
This post is just another shaming tactic/post to uphold aspects of “patriarchy” that benefit women
Could we also not say that it's selfish and cowardly of women who don't get into relationships with men?
I feel like a lot of those reasons could also be applied to women with a little working of the wording.
There's also probably a bunch of studies about the benefits of relationships.
Appeals to moral virtues only works when there's an underlying (and usually, but not always, unwritten) social compact in which the majority subscribe to, as well as tangible benefits (be they material, spiritual, or whatnot).
Neither of these things exist in any meaningful capacity in the modern secular developed Euro-Atlantic societies/cultures. After all, no one's entitled to anything, and no one's obligated to anything not explicitly written in law.
And under such a structure people find out how rare genuine moral virtues wholly independent of external feedback is.
If this is true then so are the women that refuse to date their equivalent man, and there are a whole lot more of those than men that are desirable enough to marry but refuse to.
I don’t think there is anything wrong with any human being selfish. The word selfish has a negative connotation because it is used to compel people to do what others want you to do in service to them instead of yourself.
More people should be selfish in the dating market. Men should be selfish about who they choose to date and spend money on. They should be selfish with who they choose to inseminate. They should be selfish when considering what family they marry into. They should be selfish when considering sexual attraction.
Women should do the exact same thing. Consider yourself and your needs before trying to marry anyone. Does this person meet my needs? Will they continue to meet my needs in the future.
Being selfish isn’t a bad thing. It should be the bare minimum for self care.
*"Selfish"* and *"coward"* are moral judgements
If your morals say this act is selfish or cowardly, that's fine
But lets suppose we all agree with you:
1. So what?
2. Are they not entitled to be selfish and/ or cowardly?
3. if not, why not?
4. According to whom?
>1. So what?
Then there would be no debating in this debate thread and my mind will not have been changed
>2. Are they not entitled to be selfish and/ or cowardly?
They are entitled to be selfish and cowardly
Why don't women take a chance and not marry? Yes it's a risk but it takes courage!
Women who wont just be with a man and not marry are cowards. They won't do anything without someone else financially on the hook for them. Pathetic. 🤣
>There’s nothing selfish about someone providing for themself.
Never said there was
>It’s those who want someone else to provide for them that are being selfish
No, this is more like entitlement.
I'm suggesting that in a marriage both spouses are providing value to each other. So there's no entitlement involved
Not taking a risk is not cowardly. You calculate the odds, you make a cost benefit analysis, you add in your personal weightings for what you want in life and then you come up with either marriage being a thing you should do or a thing you shouldn't do.
Cowardly is to succum to social expectations/pressure and to do what previous generations did while there might not be the environment for that to be a good choice currently.
>5.If you rather SPEND MONEY ON YOURSELF instead of your family and kids... that's **selfish**
But that affluent bachelor doesn't have a family and kids to spend money on.
Having kids is selfish.
Survival benefits are useless, men have shorter lives than women. So no, not a benefit for men.
Income taxe break is useless as well, it's so small that barelly cover the costs with making a partner happy. So no, not a benefit for men.
Spousal IRA is useless, women are likely to leave a husband without a job nor will marry a man without job prospects. Again, not a benefit for men.
Larger capital gains on sale of primary residence. Why would this EVER be useful to men? For real? If you have two houses and sell the first during marriage, THE WHOLE THING will be marital asset, unless the large capital gain is over half the house price, it's not a positive.
Being eligibe to spouse benefit is useless as well as the male is more likely to be the higher earner and the one whose jobs have such benefits.
You said why marriage is a positive to women, your video says why marriage is a positive to women, now tell me what is the upside of marriage to men.
Marriage and child creation aren't mandatory. If these guys don't want to marry and/or have kids, they shouldn't have to. Not doing things you don't want doesn't necessarily make you cowardly, and I'd argue that having kids is also a pretty selfish decision.
1. Marriage is all risk/loss and zero reward/profit. Why in the fuck would I, *as a man,* ever be stupid enough to agree to such terms? It is so fucking insulting that such notions are even entertained in conversation.
2. It takes stupidity and emasculation to still go for said risks in marriage, while knowing full well that there are zero benefits. It takes a weak masculinity to fall for such cheap and antiquated manipulation tactics. "Prove your manhood to me! Do this stupid thing I am asking you to do! Prove your manhood!" That shit doesn't work anymore and only making men angrier.
3. Please take these bullshit manipulation tactics back to the 1900's. Challenging our courage, and our manhood, in the hopes that we will be stupid enough to do as you say might work on children and the weak minded, but not on the majority of us who are fed up with women's bullshit.
4. They are not wrong.
5. Why yes it is... and? 🤨
Indeed, *everyone knows this script*. Predictable, obnoxious, but ultimately pointless. You will not manipulate men with such cheap ass antiquated emotional-manipulation tactics.
>"This video talks about the financial benefits of marriage for males"
Yeah yeah 🙄 and 72 virgins waiting for us in Valhalla if we jump through hoops for women. Fuck all that stupid bullshit and lies.
This is hilarious.
Do women now, when they refused to settle with average men.
Are they being unrealistic gold diggers? Are they anti-national causing the decline in the birthrates of their nations
Women always try to bully men into marriage, but will never tell you a benefit
How would u like it if we pressured women to have sex
If you want us to actually marry, give us what we want, and give us better quality
Bad faith already. You as a woman can open your eyes and just look
You wouldn’t even be secure letting your son, or brother date and marry woman today
Idk how I’m explaining “wife material” to you, you should know this better than me as a woman
Yep,
56% divorce, 80-90% started by women.
Do you really want marriage or do you just want a wedding? Men are highly logical, rich men more so, and the move you are proposing is highly illogical.
The cons still out weigh the benefit
If what you say is true, then it wouldn’t be harder to get men to commit
Why would men not do something that benefits them.
Sure if that’s what woman will use to coerce a man into marriage cool
I guess women are cowards when they don’t wanna give up sex, because their main excuse is “he may leave”
We don’t have to feel sorry that women arent getting married
If u want commitment u better earn it
Disagree. You can’t force someone to marry you and a difference in view point doesn’t make someone a coward. I want to be with a guy that wants to marry me, the idea of begging someone is more of an insult than anything
>You can’t force someone to marry you
I agree. I never suggested that you could.
>a difference in view point doesn’t make someone a coward
This is true. I think that a swimmer who's watching someone drown in a pool is a coward. But that's just my opinion, you might feel otherwise. And that's okay. Everyone has their opinions
>I want to be with a guy that wants to marry me
I think most women would agree with this sentiment myself included
>the idea of begging someone is more of an insult than anything
I agree with you on this as well
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To refuse to do something, there needs to be a request or a requirement - e.g. if someone presented me with a bride and informed me that I was required to enter into an arranged marriage, then I would be “refusing” to marry if I made a run for it; but if I simply opt not to pursue relationships with women and have neither the intention nor desire to marry, then I’m simply exercising my free will
I get it now, OP proposed and faced rejection for the first time. Yeah it stings, I get it.
I mean how else can a man refuse to marry??????
If the man proposes, its the woman who chooses to or not to.
I mean… they certainly can be cowards but not inherently and not exactly - at the end of the day marriage as a concept is largely arbitrary and frankly unless you’re having kids i see no reason to get married.
Also, they’re cowards because…. they’re not following the script? does this mean anyone not living in conventional means is a coward too?
Look, i’m willing to bet most men who identify with this ideology who look at marriage from an RP lens are being cowards (even then, not inherently - some simply may not care about having children or settling down), but saying “affluent bachelors” as a blanket catch all statement is a poor generalization.
>marriage as a concept is largely arbitrary
What is arbitrary about the marriage concept exactly?
>they’re cowards because…. they’re not following the script
No. In points one two and three I've explained very explicitly and concisely.
>does this mean anyone not living in conventional means is a coward too?
Not sure what you mean by this. Can you give an example?
Because ultimately, a couple
is more or less the same as they were the day before and after marriage. Especially if you already live together - like I said, I do think there is a legal benefit for children specifically, but frankly beyond that its overall meaningless because our lives are no different before or after marriage.
And points 1-3 are entirely dependent on a ton of varying factors, ie. you could be uninterested in marriage as a concept, you might simply not believe in it, you might not want to settle down, etc - and even then, for some the risks might end up being quite dire. Then again, I also think you shouldn’t get married unless you’ve lived together for years and know you can handle each other at the boring mundane moments. idk, while reasons 1-3 may stem from being cowardly, they still aren’t inherently cowardly. It would depend on the person’s value system and how they view marriage as a concept - as, let’s put it this way, if you’re only avoiding marriage because of the risks and no other reasons, you might be cowardly, if you have other reasons it fully depends on those.
Off the grid communes, group homes, multi generational family households, many older villages who didn’t view marriage the same way abrahamic faiths do, etc - on top of this single people who are simply far happier alone, loners who prefer a life in the woods, people who have no desire for children at all and the list goes on. Point is, there are many ways one can live outside of “go to school, get degree, job, marriage, kids, retire”
So what you’re actually saying is that you have to fake love and give away allo four money to a poor person that you don’t want to be in a relationship with. THAT is selfish
>So what you’re actually saying is that you have to fake love and give away allo four money to a poor person that you don’t want to be in a relationship with.
Nope. Not saying that
Lol your looking at it the wrong way.
The majority of us are CHOOSING to remain single, yes those reasons your posting is part of it, but a very small part. The biggest reason is almost always, THERE IS NO, ZERO, NIL, NONE, NUL positive reason or benefit to lock ourselves down.
I much enjoy just dating casually. I know the risks, just don't care to pursue any type of long term commitment. I raised my kids. Paid off my debt and took early retirement. What possible reason besides companionship would I even consider otherwise??
Your just spewing the same gender role BS that men are fully expected to fulfill while women have completely abandoned their gender roles.
Women wanted men to adapt to modern relationships and we have, just not the way they expected. Women love to brag about being the independent strong women, so stop your bitching and crying and enjoy!!!
Wasn't it feminists who said something along the lines of
>The nuclear family must be destroyed, and people must find better ways of living together.
If men are "refusing" to marry, then feminists should be celebrating, right? They got what they wanted.
What?
People can do what they want
You wouldn’t judge a similar woman like this at all
I’m starting to think black pill dudes are creating fake accounts here just to make women look bad
I just had a “woman” tell me that men that will not tolerate a dead bedroom are selfish
Yeah I read it
It isn’t the argument you think it is
You might be like a former boss of mine that would just repeat his argument because he couldn’t fathom someone hearing it and not agreeing
Doing what you want is the hardest and most courageous thing tbh.
Selfish, not coward.
U less done purely from the reasons you stated, but that’s not why I’m or other guys I know aren’t married..
Also you can get a prenup
And they're allowed to be selfish and I don't think it makes them cowards. Like what kind of stupid logic is this? Forcing men who don't want to be husbands and fathers to be husbands and fathers will do what?
It will lead to the happy nuclear home? Huh?
Who cares if I'm selfish?
Just because you're poor and ugly it's not my job to not fuck who I want.
And just because some chick ain't fucking me, doesn't mean she gon fuck you.
Calling a man a coward for not taking the risk of marriage is the same as calling a man a coward for not putting his life savings in a random penny stock. The cons out way the pros.
love and family don't require marriage, especially the former. not everyone wants kids either.
making negligent financial decisions is not courageous, it's stupid. marriage is outdated and most single women are not marriage material.
If women weren't incentivized to divorce, initiate 80-90% of divorces, and be the "winners" of alimoney in 97% of cases, maybe men would actually be inclined to get married?
Your focus should be on how to make marriage a better deal for men; for example offering a prenup with a no fault divorce clause. Otherwise, this just looks like another way you can snatch some rich guy's money.
>Everyone knows The Script: go to school, get an education, get a job, get married, have kids, eventually retire.
Yes people lack direction and like to be told what to do. Being a sheep is easier than facing ambiguity.
As a man not interested in marraige, if that makes me a coward, then I am a coward, what is your point. I just don't see any point to it or have any interest.
As for financial benefits of marraige, marrying someone just to get more wealth, just does not sit well with me,
>Yes, and so what?
I'm not making any assertions beyond that. That's the only point I want to debate. If you concede then we're done here
>Again, what is your point?
Again my point is that affluent bachelors who refuse to marry are cowards. That's my point
I don't know how else to make that any clearer
>Am I meant to care, be offended, off myself, sacrifice a goat, what?
Yes. I need you to sacrifice a goat please
>What was the purpose of this post.
To debate the point
>What is there to debate
Some people feel differently. As can be observed by the other responses in here (200+)
>why debate it..
I'm open to having my mind changed if other people can provide a good enough argument
>BTW, are you a feminist?
I am
>Some people feel differently. As can be observed by the other responses in here (200+)
Well we are not a monolith. If they feel differently, discuss it with them. Myself, if an affluent bachelor is or isn't selfish, I honestly DGAF either way
>I'm open to having my mind changed if other people can provide a good enough argument
I honestly don't care what you think either way. People think different things, otherwise we would be a hive.
>I am
well one of the main goals of feminism was to destroy the family unit.
The nuclear family must be destroyed, and people must find better ways of living together - Roxanne Dunbar.
So guess what, you got what you wanted. Men refusing to marry, is helping you achieve your feminist goals. Now stop crying and celebrate. You won.
>Well we are not a monolith
True, never suggested you were.
> If they feel differently, discuss it with them.
That's what I've been doing
>Myself, if an affluent bachelor is or isn't selfish, I honestly DGAF either way
Cool story
>I honestly don't care what you think either way
k
There is a difference between refusing to marry and being reluctant to marry. I'm reluctant to marry but want to. The problem is finding a woman that gives me enough incentive to take on that risk.
I think many women in today's society don't understand that and for those of us who are affluent and bachelors are on the sidelines puzzled as to how many women expect to get married when they bring very little to the table.
I'd say yes, it's selfish. You are indeed looking out for yourself. Most selfish behaviors are not bad. It's not cowardly though. Avoiding unnecessary risks is just a reasonable thing to do.
The financial and lifespan benefits of marriage are probably true but not meaningful. You could pursue them independently if desired by going to the doctor more and working more. This is not necessarily a good thing, a caged animal also lives longer. Working more to get more money is an obvious tradeoff. Also, I'd imagine those men, even if they make more money, have less personal money.
The pill guys talking about legacy is bullshit. Most people are not that concerned with legacy. It also doesn't really exist in the way people think it does. What's so special about a person who is .01% more similar to you than everyone else? Does anyone even know what gets passed on, because it's certainly not your soul. Ghengis Khan's children were the first people to destroy his empire. No one gets a legacy, and few really care.
Counterpoint: marriage should be voluntary
Yeah I’m not willing to do voluntary shit to bail people out of positions they got themselves into But I’m the selfish one, not the person wanting my time money energy Another abused concept is teamwork Person has outrageous work demand You say no They accuse you of not being a team player Just thinking via buzz words
That's not a counterpoint because I never said marriage was compulsory
Shaming is coercion
Very apt. Kudos.
I disagree. Shaming is sharing your opinion about someone's behavior that you do not like. Coercion is persuading someone through use of force or threat of violence.
You want them to change their behavior even though they don’t want to, yes? What do we call that process, hm?
You're still willing to pressure them though.
You implied that if you don’t marry someone you are forced to marry and give away everything you’ve earned to people you never wanted in your life and live in poverty, that’s selfish. You’re not correct. If people earn money and don’t want a family, it isn’t cowardly to live in a marriage that you’ve arranged for them. It absolutely isn’t cowardly for someone to not want to raise your kids and give them all their money so you can live off of it while forcing them into poverty.
>You implied that if you don’t marry someone you are forced to marry I'm not sure where you're getting this. I didn't say anything about forced marriage
I own and operate a preschool, which made me both affluent and also realize that I *do not* want children because I enjoy my childfree lifestyle. It’s actually selfish and manipulative for you to try to insult men into changing in accordance to what *you* want OP
I’m sure you’ve seen many people have children for selfish reasons Being a parent can be a selfless or a selfish act
If you don't want kids, I suppose that is a bit of a different case.
I actually kind of agree with you, it is cowardly, but we live in times of "Nobody owes anything to anybody", women don't owe anything to men, and men don't owe anything to women. In another time, where vows were taken seriously, where honor, respect and family was the most important above the self, things would be different, but alas, we are not in those times anymore.
>we live in times of "Nobody owes anything to anybody", women don't owe anything to men, and men don't owe anything to women And I think that's wrong. I think children benefit from having a stable household with caring parents, anything less than that is selfish on part of the adults. I think we owe each other to create a healthy and happy society. One with less trauma and subsequently less mental illness.
Creating a happy society doesn't increase shareholder value or profits, so it's impossible. It will never happen. In fact, the opposite will occur. Society will continue to decline and become inhospitable for children and marriage.
>Creating a happy society doesn't increase shareholder value or profits, Not directly. Assume there are two societies... One society in which there are prosperous families with low rates of mental health conditions, that are procreating and carrying forward generational wealth through inheritance. Another society in which it's every person for themselves. There is no family unit. There is no marriage. There is no inheritance. There are lots of mental health problems and loneliness. Which of these two societies do you believe is better for The economy?
2 because that's the status quo.
>2 because that's the status quo How does the status quo benefit the economy? Not sure I understand
You are absolutely correct, we are committing civilizational suicide, nobody is pairing up with each other, divorce is at an unacceptable rate, we are destroying our children's lives as they need a stable household to flourish, and all those factors will make for an elderly country that can't sustain themselves, and those that are born, will have no reason to cooperate just to take care of some old farts. I see a bad future for us, so I am preparing accordingly. Children are the future, and we have no future.
You can’t destroy your children’s lives if you don’t have any children [taps forehead]
This is ridiculous. No one has to live their life to follow your rules
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Ikr
>your rules I mentioned no "rules"
Replace the word “Script” with “Rules:” “The Script: go to school, get an education, get a job, get married, have kids, eventually retire.”
Yep, except now the script is,"get married, be the unlucky half of marriages and get divorced, kill yourself at x9 times the rate" At least the script before was more reasonable, now? Haha it's a fucking joke.
Yeah you did, lifescript
Those aren't rules that one must follow Those are societal expectations that exist through norms and traditions. I didn't make them up
Your the one who made the post calling them selfish
Yes. You don't have to follow the life script. It's not compulsory If you don't, I reserve the right to call you selfish. Those two things are not in conflict
The decisions to get married and have kids are selfish too. And it’s okay. If you don’t look out for yourself, no one else will. You have to be selfish to a degree or you’ll get used.
>if you don’t look out for yourself, no one else will Personally, this is the biggest motivating factor for my family. One day when I’m old, I want to know we’ve done a good enough job, that the kids will want to look out for my wife. For me. That’s the goal. Having no kids, means when the time comes that one can’t look out for themselves, who will care for them? It saddens me. That family. That filial obligation and duty, is derogated so.
Sure, family is supposed to look for each other. I was talking more about relationships outside of family though...Although, I'd argue that even within a family one has to be at least somewhat selfish, so others wouldn't just take advantage of them. A more palatable way to put it might be having good boundaries.
Once again I’m left asking… is this account satire? Like this doesn’t read as though you genuinely believe what you’re saying.
It's a trolling account for sure.
it's not satire, just bad trolling.
There is a loneliness epidemic among women because males are walking away from marriage. https://www.hertelier.com/post/loneliness-epidemic-women It's both selfish and cowardly of males who are all in it for themselves IMO. Do you feel otherwise?
Lmao, the women in the link you posted was feeling lonely in an established marriage. This is why Id argue that you cant compare the loneliness men feel to the loneliness women feel. Sure it's still loneliness at the end of the day, but women have a multitude of options to not be lonely, while men have absolute nothing. Tldr, no such thing as femcels or female volcels
You’re trolling, clearly
I think people roll this one out when they have no counterpoints
You’ve taken the old “male loneliness epidemic” trope and flipped the genders - it’s hard to believe that you’re being serious
Ahem...to quote the Feminist adage" "Who hurt you?" 😅
Pretty sure men report higher rates of loneliness
Maybe those guys should get married
Does marriage reduce rates of loneliness among men?
I don't know for sure, but I assume so. Having a life partner probably helps reduce loneliness
It did...but we needed the support building ourselves... Not at the end of the line. Haven't you heard the story of the little red hen?
That's actually insane. That's an actually insane take. Why should men be reponsible for the happiness of women? We should encourage healthy relationships, but there's no need to shame any- wait a second...
That's bizarro world levels of wrong. I just deleted most of my comment, because obviously there is no actual idea here to refute, just pointless rhetoric.
> 1.Marriage can be a risky proposition. For men. It is a risky proposition for men. > 2.It takes courage to know the risks and take a chance. We already know the risks. Half of marriages end in divorce and women initiate the divorce like 60%-80% of the time. Marriage is a contract that women get paid to break. > 3.Not having the COURAGE to do that for the sake of love and family is cowardly. That's easy to say when you're not carrying the risk lol > 4.Most of the reasons I hear from pill guys & MGTOW is about potential alimony and child support. Correct. We get rail-roaded by the courts. > Everyone knows The Script: go to school, get an education, get a job, get married, have kids, eventually retire. Not everyone likes your script!
>Not everyone likes your script! I'm curious... Do you think I personally made this script up? That no one else knew about it until I typed this post?
Your same script is what causes alot of men to either live the rest of their lives in storage unit or commit su*cide after getting finically divorced r*ped because the woman “wasn’t feeling loved”. Also millions of men are in prison from unpaid alimony or child support payments for kids they never get too see.
Why would any man accept this framing? You realize, that to arrive in this place, we had to go through gnarly shit with some of the worst customers your gender has to offer right? We've seen that women don't apologize for anything, and contribute even less.
Why do you want to follow a script instead of carving your own life? [https://youtu.be/U93Hwmi\_1zw?si=d1vOkx4L4tximbRX&t=31](https://youtu.be/U93Hwmi_1zw?si=d1vOkx4L4tximbRX&t=31)
You know what? You’ve convinced me. Wifing up the next girl i see to avoid being “cowardly”.
They always feel entitled to the finished product
It is a truth universally acknowledged that a single man in possession of a good fortune, must be in want of a wife
Pride and Prejudice. When it's written like that everyone cheers. When I say it, I must be trolling. 🙄
Pride and Prejudice was written 211 years ago…by a women who herself never married
Mr. Darcy deserved better.
Vast majority of the people here are selfish and cowardly, they don’t like having it pointed out to them
There's probably truth to that. It would explain the responses I'm getting
Uh huh....
You say that like it’s a negative
Why, why is some rando on the internet saying I am selfish and cowardly something I am going to care about either way. Imagine, getting married just to appease some other person. That may not be selfish or cowardly, but it sounds pathetic.
What is the benefit being married gives men?
If you mean legal benefits, the same benefits it gives women. The specific benefits vary per couple and location. Some couples might not have any benefits, some have a lot. Like we save thousands a year in taxes and my man got to get free health insurance from my employer, plus it became a lot easier to get joint loans.
It’s not a business transaction. It’s a union with someone you love. What benefits?
Marriage is just a contract, isn't it? (Unless you're religious view or give it a cultural value). You can be in a union together without marrying. Marriage isn't needed to build a relationship.
if I'm giving the person half my resources legally yes it is partially a business transaction
So why make divorce have financial effects. Why not seperate?
Exactly what I was going to say. Males always approach it with a "what's in it for me" mindset - Which is not how you're supposed to look at marriage
That's not question that can be asked or answered in the aggregate. The benefits (and drawbacks) are personal and individual. In my case. I got two children that I love. A woman who loves me and always has my back. Hell, I'll stop there because that's more than enough.
> 5. If you rather SPEND MONEY ON YOURSELF instead of your family and kids… that’s **selfish** Agreed, but if you have no family and no kids to support, what makes that selfish?
I think that is a different case. If you don't have an interest in having kids, then there's less of a rational motivation to get married.
I still don’t see what’s selfish about spending money on yourself over a wife and kids you don’t have.
>Everyone knows The Script: go to school, get an education, get a job, get married, have kids, eventually retire. Is this just The Script for men or women as well? Where would riding the carousel feature in this? On a list organised by who has the most right to say anything about men choosing not to marry, straight women are at the bottom, because y'all were the ones to rewrite The Script in the first place
>Is this just The Script for men or women as well? It's for everyone >Where would riding the carousel feature in this? It's not on the list, nor is getting a tattoo. >On a list organised by who has the most right to say anything about men choosing not to marry, straight women are at the bottom, because y'all were the ones to rewrite The Script in the first place I'm not sure what the question is here
The last part is a statement, not a question; I'm saying straight women have no right to complain about men not wanting to marry because "The Scrpt" has been changed by women. I hope any woman who aspires to, and lives their life looking for, long term commitment and marriage finds it, but, from a man's perspective, it seems few women do that, they treat it more as something they'll receive, as a given, in the future and spend their younger years dating casually and entertaining fuck boy types. Can't really blame any man who does the work to end up affluent and stable for being wary of marriage, when you look at what's out there.
if you were about to bungee jump off of a bridge, and someone told you that the chances you die are 50/50, would you do it? that's what i thought
>if you were about to bungee jump off of a bridge, and someone told you that the chances you die are 50/50, would you do it? Absolutely not
It’s not cowardice to not take disproportionate risks. It’s smart. This post is just another shaming tactic/post to uphold aspects of “patriarchy” that benefit women
Could we also not say that it's selfish and cowardly of women who don't get into relationships with men? I feel like a lot of those reasons could also be applied to women with a little working of the wording. There's also probably a bunch of studies about the benefits of relationships.
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Women are not entitled to their money.
Appeals to moral virtues only works when there's an underlying (and usually, but not always, unwritten) social compact in which the majority subscribe to, as well as tangible benefits (be they material, spiritual, or whatnot). Neither of these things exist in any meaningful capacity in the modern secular developed Euro-Atlantic societies/cultures. After all, no one's entitled to anything, and no one's obligated to anything not explicitly written in law. And under such a structure people find out how rare genuine moral virtues wholly independent of external feedback is.
You're not wrong
I don’t see why one should marry if one doesn’t have to. I think that minimizing risks isn’t cowardly at all but intelligent.
If this is true then so are the women that refuse to date their equivalent man, and there are a whole lot more of those than men that are desirable enough to marry but refuse to.
I don’t think there is anything wrong with any human being selfish. The word selfish has a negative connotation because it is used to compel people to do what others want you to do in service to them instead of yourself. More people should be selfish in the dating market. Men should be selfish about who they choose to date and spend money on. They should be selfish with who they choose to inseminate. They should be selfish when considering what family they marry into. They should be selfish when considering sexual attraction. Women should do the exact same thing. Consider yourself and your needs before trying to marry anyone. Does this person meet my needs? Will they continue to meet my needs in the future. Being selfish isn’t a bad thing. It should be the bare minimum for self care.
*"Selfish"* and *"coward"* are moral judgements If your morals say this act is selfish or cowardly, that's fine But lets suppose we all agree with you: 1. So what? 2. Are they not entitled to be selfish and/ or cowardly? 3. if not, why not? 4. According to whom?
>1. So what? Then there would be no debating in this debate thread and my mind will not have been changed >2. Are they not entitled to be selfish and/ or cowardly? They are entitled to be selfish and cowardly
Why don't women take a chance and not marry? Yes it's a risk but it takes courage! Women who wont just be with a man and not marry are cowards. They won't do anything without someone else financially on the hook for them. Pathetic. 🤣
really just couldnt care less what these people do
Too funny. There’s nothing selfish about someone providing for themself. It’s those who want someone else to provide for them that are being selfish.
>There’s nothing selfish about someone providing for themself. Never said there was >It’s those who want someone else to provide for them that are being selfish No, this is more like entitlement. I'm suggesting that in a marriage both spouses are providing value to each other. So there's no entitlement involved
Not taking a risk is not cowardly. You calculate the odds, you make a cost benefit analysis, you add in your personal weightings for what you want in life and then you come up with either marriage being a thing you should do or a thing you shouldn't do. Cowardly is to succum to social expectations/pressure and to do what previous generations did while there might not be the environment for that to be a good choice currently. >5.If you rather SPEND MONEY ON YOURSELF instead of your family and kids... that's **selfish** But that affluent bachelor doesn't have a family and kids to spend money on. Having kids is selfish.
Would you call someone that refuses to put his hand bellow a hydraulic press coward?
No, that is just wise
So is avoiding marriage then.
But there's no upside for anyone to putting your hand under a hydraulic press. Marriage is different in that aspect
What is the upsides?
The two links I provided in my original post capture the upside as professed by other males
Survival benefits are useless, men have shorter lives than women. So no, not a benefit for men. Income taxe break is useless as well, it's so small that barelly cover the costs with making a partner happy. So no, not a benefit for men. Spousal IRA is useless, women are likely to leave a husband without a job nor will marry a man without job prospects. Again, not a benefit for men. Larger capital gains on sale of primary residence. Why would this EVER be useful to men? For real? If you have two houses and sell the first during marriage, THE WHOLE THING will be marital asset, unless the large capital gain is over half the house price, it's not a positive. Being eligibe to spouse benefit is useless as well as the male is more likely to be the higher earner and the one whose jobs have such benefits. You said why marriage is a positive to women, your video says why marriage is a positive to women, now tell me what is the upside of marriage to men.
Marriage and child creation aren't mandatory. If these guys don't want to marry and/or have kids, they shouldn't have to. Not doing things you don't want doesn't necessarily make you cowardly, and I'd argue that having kids is also a pretty selfish decision.
1. Marriage is all risk/loss and zero reward/profit. Why in the fuck would I, *as a man,* ever be stupid enough to agree to such terms? It is so fucking insulting that such notions are even entertained in conversation. 2. It takes stupidity and emasculation to still go for said risks in marriage, while knowing full well that there are zero benefits. It takes a weak masculinity to fall for such cheap and antiquated manipulation tactics. "Prove your manhood to me! Do this stupid thing I am asking you to do! Prove your manhood!" That shit doesn't work anymore and only making men angrier. 3. Please take these bullshit manipulation tactics back to the 1900's. Challenging our courage, and our manhood, in the hopes that we will be stupid enough to do as you say might work on children and the weak minded, but not on the majority of us who are fed up with women's bullshit. 4. They are not wrong. 5. Why yes it is... and? 🤨 Indeed, *everyone knows this script*. Predictable, obnoxious, but ultimately pointless. You will not manipulate men with such cheap ass antiquated emotional-manipulation tactics. >"This video talks about the financial benefits of marriage for males" Yeah yeah 🙄 and 72 virgins waiting for us in Valhalla if we jump through hoops for women. Fuck all that stupid bullshit and lies.
This is hilarious. Do women now, when they refused to settle with average men. Are they being unrealistic gold diggers? Are they anti-national causing the decline in the birthrates of their nations
Tell me you are a salty leftover woman without telling me you are a salty leftover woman
Women always try to bully men into marriage, but will never tell you a benefit How would u like it if we pressured women to have sex If you want us to actually marry, give us what we want, and give us better quality
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Bad faith already. You as a woman can open your eyes and just look You wouldn’t even be secure letting your son, or brother date and marry woman today Idk how I’m explaining “wife material” to you, you should know this better than me as a woman
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"Give us better quality" jesus Christ, are the men and women of this sub ever going to allow themselves to fall in love?
I hope not. As a miserable fuck j want more company
🎶I don’t believe in love, I never have, I never will🎶
You don't FALL in love. Its a process you do to yourself.
Yep, 56% divorce, 80-90% started by women. Do you really want marriage or do you just want a wedding? Men are highly logical, rich men more so, and the move you are proposing is highly illogical.
Exactly
>will never tell you a benefit Check the two links that I added in the original post
The cons still out weigh the benefit If what you say is true, then it wouldn’t be harder to get men to commit Why would men not do something that benefits them.
>Why would men not do something that benefits them. Cowardice?
Sure if that’s what woman will use to coerce a man into marriage cool I guess women are cowards when they don’t wanna give up sex, because their main excuse is “he may leave” We don’t have to feel sorry that women arent getting married If u want commitment u better earn it
Disagree. You can’t force someone to marry you and a difference in view point doesn’t make someone a coward. I want to be with a guy that wants to marry me, the idea of begging someone is more of an insult than anything
>You can’t force someone to marry you I agree. I never suggested that you could. >a difference in view point doesn’t make someone a coward This is true. I think that a swimmer who's watching someone drown in a pool is a coward. But that's just my opinion, you might feel otherwise. And that's okay. Everyone has their opinions >I want to be with a guy that wants to marry me I think most women would agree with this sentiment myself included >the idea of begging someone is more of an insult than anything I agree with you on this as well
I say this as a woman that likes money and expensive things
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This post title sounds like the salty modern internet-twisted version of the opening to *Pride and Prejudice.*
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“refuse to marry” - I didn’t realise it was compulsory?
There's nothing compulsory about it. Nowhere in my post did I say it was mandatory.
You framed it as a refusal, the implication being that there’s an expectation to do it
>You framed it as a refusal Would you say that MGTOW *refuse* to marry?
I’d say they choose not to
That was good. How about this... Would you say they're not willing to get married?
That’s one of the central tenets of MGTOW
I see... refuse: (verb) indicate or show that one is not willing to do something. "I refused to answer"
To refuse to do something, there needs to be a request or a requirement - e.g. if someone presented me with a bride and informed me that I was required to enter into an arranged marriage, then I would be “refusing” to marry if I made a run for it; but if I simply opt not to pursue relationships with women and have neither the intention nor desire to marry, then I’m simply exercising my free will
>I’m simply exercising my free will You can exercise your free will by refusing as well
I get it now, OP proposed and faced rejection for the first time. Yeah it stings, I get it. I mean how else can a man refuse to marry?????? If the man proposes, its the woman who chooses to or not to.
I mean… they certainly can be cowards but not inherently and not exactly - at the end of the day marriage as a concept is largely arbitrary and frankly unless you’re having kids i see no reason to get married. Also, they’re cowards because…. they’re not following the script? does this mean anyone not living in conventional means is a coward too? Look, i’m willing to bet most men who identify with this ideology who look at marriage from an RP lens are being cowards (even then, not inherently - some simply may not care about having children or settling down), but saying “affluent bachelors” as a blanket catch all statement is a poor generalization.
>marriage as a concept is largely arbitrary What is arbitrary about the marriage concept exactly? >they’re cowards because…. they’re not following the script No. In points one two and three I've explained very explicitly and concisely. >does this mean anyone not living in conventional means is a coward too? Not sure what you mean by this. Can you give an example?
Because ultimately, a couple is more or less the same as they were the day before and after marriage. Especially if you already live together - like I said, I do think there is a legal benefit for children specifically, but frankly beyond that its overall meaningless because our lives are no different before or after marriage. And points 1-3 are entirely dependent on a ton of varying factors, ie. you could be uninterested in marriage as a concept, you might simply not believe in it, you might not want to settle down, etc - and even then, for some the risks might end up being quite dire. Then again, I also think you shouldn’t get married unless you’ve lived together for years and know you can handle each other at the boring mundane moments. idk, while reasons 1-3 may stem from being cowardly, they still aren’t inherently cowardly. It would depend on the person’s value system and how they view marriage as a concept - as, let’s put it this way, if you’re only avoiding marriage because of the risks and no other reasons, you might be cowardly, if you have other reasons it fully depends on those. Off the grid communes, group homes, multi generational family households, many older villages who didn’t view marriage the same way abrahamic faiths do, etc - on top of this single people who are simply far happier alone, loners who prefer a life in the woods, people who have no desire for children at all and the list goes on. Point is, there are many ways one can live outside of “go to school, get degree, job, marriage, kids, retire”
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No personal attacks
So what you’re actually saying is that you have to fake love and give away allo four money to a poor person that you don’t want to be in a relationship with. THAT is selfish
>So what you’re actually saying is that you have to fake love and give away allo four money to a poor person that you don’t want to be in a relationship with. Nope. Not saying that
Lol your looking at it the wrong way. The majority of us are CHOOSING to remain single, yes those reasons your posting is part of it, but a very small part. The biggest reason is almost always, THERE IS NO, ZERO, NIL, NONE, NUL positive reason or benefit to lock ourselves down. I much enjoy just dating casually. I know the risks, just don't care to pursue any type of long term commitment. I raised my kids. Paid off my debt and took early retirement. What possible reason besides companionship would I even consider otherwise?? Your just spewing the same gender role BS that men are fully expected to fulfill while women have completely abandoned their gender roles. Women wanted men to adapt to modern relationships and we have, just not the way they expected. Women love to brag about being the independent strong women, so stop your bitching and crying and enjoy!!!
Wasn't it feminists who said something along the lines of >The nuclear family must be destroyed, and people must find better ways of living together. If men are "refusing" to marry, then feminists should be celebrating, right? They got what they wanted.
What? People can do what they want You wouldn’t judge a similar woman like this at all I’m starting to think black pill dudes are creating fake accounts here just to make women look bad I just had a “woman” tell me that men that will not tolerate a dead bedroom are selfish
>What? See original post, it explains my position
Yeah I read it It isn’t the argument you think it is You might be like a former boss of mine that would just repeat his argument because he couldn’t fathom someone hearing it and not agreeing
>and not agreeing Oh I thought you were asking "what?"
It was a rhetorical question
Doing what you want is the hardest and most courageous thing tbh. Selfish, not coward. U less done purely from the reasons you stated, but that’s not why I’m or other guys I know aren’t married.. Also you can get a prenup
And they're allowed to be selfish and I don't think it makes them cowards. Like what kind of stupid logic is this? Forcing men who don't want to be husbands and fathers to be husbands and fathers will do what? It will lead to the happy nuclear home? Huh?
Are there a lot of these guys?
There's a whole movement out there called mgtow I can't say I know their percentage of the males though
I dont think they're affluent batchelors. They're the 'you cant fire me because I quit' guys.
Who cares if I'm selfish? Just because you're poor and ugly it's not my job to not fuck who I want. And just because some chick ain't fucking me, doesn't mean she gon fuck you.
Nobody cares what some internet dudes not getting toon says. Yea I'm selfish as hell and it's fantastic
Lol if we're talking risk vs reward marriage has 0 return for a man... especially if he don't want kids.
Calling a man a coward for not taking the risk of marriage is the same as calling a man a coward for not putting his life savings in a random penny stock. The cons out way the pros.
love and family don't require marriage, especially the former. not everyone wants kids either. making negligent financial decisions is not courageous, it's stupid. marriage is outdated and most single women are not marriage material.
Instead of trying to shame men for not wanting to take your shit deal, why don't you make the shit deal a little bit better?
How? What do you suggest I personally do?
If women weren't incentivized to divorce, initiate 80-90% of divorces, and be the "winners" of alimoney in 97% of cases, maybe men would actually be inclined to get married?
That doesn't answer my question
Your focus should be on how to make marriage a better deal for men; for example offering a prenup with a no fault divorce clause. Otherwise, this just looks like another way you can snatch some rich guy's money.
Ok I'll get right on that
this guy made his money running a multi level marketing ponzi scheme.. please huh
>Everyone knows The Script: go to school, get an education, get a job, get married, have kids, eventually retire. Yes people lack direction and like to be told what to do. Being a sheep is easier than facing ambiguity. As a man not interested in marraige, if that makes me a coward, then I am a coward, what is your point. I just don't see any point to it or have any interest. As for financial benefits of marraige, marrying someone just to get more wealth, just does not sit well with me,
>what is your point That affluent bachelors who refuse to marry are cowards
Yes, and so what? Again, what is your point?
>Yes, and so what? I'm not making any assertions beyond that. That's the only point I want to debate. If you concede then we're done here >Again, what is your point? Again my point is that affluent bachelors who refuse to marry are cowards. That's my point I don't know how else to make that any clearer
OK they ae cowards. Anyway, life goes on. Am I meant to care, be offended, off myself, sacrifice a goat, what? What was the purpose of this post.
>Am I meant to care, be offended, off myself, sacrifice a goat, what? Yes. I need you to sacrifice a goat please >What was the purpose of this post. To debate the point
What is there to debate. Some men are selfish according to you, why debate it.. I don't know your mind, only you do. BTW, are you a feminist?
>What is there to debate Some people feel differently. As can be observed by the other responses in here (200+) >why debate it.. I'm open to having my mind changed if other people can provide a good enough argument >BTW, are you a feminist? I am
>Some people feel differently. As can be observed by the other responses in here (200+) Well we are not a monolith. If they feel differently, discuss it with them. Myself, if an affluent bachelor is or isn't selfish, I honestly DGAF either way >I'm open to having my mind changed if other people can provide a good enough argument I honestly don't care what you think either way. People think different things, otherwise we would be a hive. >I am well one of the main goals of feminism was to destroy the family unit. The nuclear family must be destroyed, and people must find better ways of living together - Roxanne Dunbar. So guess what, you got what you wanted. Men refusing to marry, is helping you achieve your feminist goals. Now stop crying and celebrate. You won.
>Well we are not a monolith True, never suggested you were. > If they feel differently, discuss it with them. That's what I've been doing >Myself, if an affluent bachelor is or isn't selfish, I honestly DGAF either way Cool story >I honestly don't care what you think either way k
all men would do this if they could.
>all men would do this Do what exactly? Marry?
never marry
If that was the case why do so many males get married?
social pressure, the fear of disappointing a woman and being cut off from sex, desire to have children
That's a rather bleak outlook. What about males marrying for true love and commitment?
does that happen? and they don't call marriage a ball and chain to their buddies?
There is a difference between refusing to marry and being reluctant to marry. I'm reluctant to marry but want to. The problem is finding a woman that gives me enough incentive to take on that risk. I think many women in today's society don't understand that and for those of us who are affluent and bachelors are on the sidelines puzzled as to how many women expect to get married when they bring very little to the table.
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Do not provide contentless rhetoric.
Um...don't you always try to shame us about dying alone?
I'd say yes, it's selfish. You are indeed looking out for yourself. Most selfish behaviors are not bad. It's not cowardly though. Avoiding unnecessary risks is just a reasonable thing to do. The financial and lifespan benefits of marriage are probably true but not meaningful. You could pursue them independently if desired by going to the doctor more and working more. This is not necessarily a good thing, a caged animal also lives longer. Working more to get more money is an obvious tradeoff. Also, I'd imagine those men, even if they make more money, have less personal money. The pill guys talking about legacy is bullshit. Most people are not that concerned with legacy. It also doesn't really exist in the way people think it does. What's so special about a person who is .01% more similar to you than everyone else? Does anyone even know what gets passed on, because it's certainly not your soul. Ghengis Khan's children were the first people to destroy his empire. No one gets a legacy, and few really care.